Thankyou to the lovely lady who left the voicemail, if you are reading these comments, good luck with your education and career and future generally. You are the expert of your own reality, you know that there was no choice. My dr did a similar thing to me and it postponed me getting out, it's a good reminder for all of us to not correct people when they describe their lived experiences and above all, never tell victims that they had a choice they feel they didn't, they enjoyed something they feel they didn't or that if you were them you'd have "just" stopped it from happening. I'm so sorry for your hard life experiences. You didn't have a choice, even if you actively chose to study with no emotional holds like family, the fact is nobody "asks for it," nobody volunteers their whole life in service or donates to a lie on purpose. How good would a job have to be for you to work it everyday of your life and sacrifice all of your freedoms, without pay and without any charitable benefit? How good would a cause have to be for you to donate to it's worldwide perpetuation, every month for the rest of your life? We were brainwashed and I'm so happy for the elite FREED minds consuming this content. Reality is brutal but it will never be as brutal as Yahweh.
@TruthHasSpoken3 жыл бұрын
“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.” (Carl Sagan)
@liplockednomore3 жыл бұрын
Those of us who've been indoctrinated into a cult and escaped have no problem using terminology such as brainwashing, mind-control etc. If the academic community were exposed I believe they'd change their tune. Thank you, caller.💪👏👍❤
@akatheheretic30143 жыл бұрын
Precisely !
@lauralarrabee78703 жыл бұрын
That and less of these schools would allow the proliferation of all these cults into college campuses. Isn’t there a separation between church and state? Why are these different cults allowed to recruit at college campuses?
@randyg6663 жыл бұрын
Unless you were born into, you had a choice right? I mean, unless you were a JW concentration camp you were not forced to learn and accept their teachings.
@the_mini_axe28173 жыл бұрын
@@randyg666 A) at this point most are born in (their growth rate is similar to the current birth/death rate) B) they mostly go to those that are in a vulnerable state that in some ways could be similar to the influence of drugs and the person may make choices that they would never do otherwise C) in a way they do force people, with shunning, to stay in if at any point they do begin to realize that it is a cult
@Onoesmahpie3 жыл бұрын
I was disappointed to see Hassan play semantical games instead of having an in depth discussion about what brainwashing actually is.
@crossroadcircleoffical3 жыл бұрын
We might be living in the wrong point in history, but we are going to change everything so that our kids can live in the right point of History. Lloyd I believe you're going to have a huge role in this you are already influencing the Next Generation of sociologists and psychologists. You are fueling the fire in the hearts of all of the ex-cult members around the world.
@sasukeuchiha86483 жыл бұрын
Underrated comment. Yours should be pinned on top, because it is the truth.
@sasukeuchiha86483 жыл бұрын
You're right
@margaretvalentine59573 жыл бұрын
To You, who left the voicemail: Thank you for getting an education. It benefits all of us. With your cult experience you will have an edge the others can’t possibly understand! PLEASE USE IT, liberally. I’m wishing you all the best in your education and your career, how ever you choose to apply your education.
@ZoeBellCake3 жыл бұрын
Man, I would love to just have a conversation with this girl. She's got her act together.
@wzukon38493 жыл бұрын
Yes! Caller, if you are reading comments, know that I encourage you to contact Lloyd again and tell us more about your journey in an interview. A JW attending college! Your story could serve as inspiration to so many "yang wans".
@milham763 жыл бұрын
Does she ever! Hope there is more info on her at a later date.
@linzrojo3 жыл бұрын
This conversation was fascinating. The thing about consent and making a conscious decision how can you truly make an informed decision if one you aren’t ever given all the information and two you are not allowed to question or even research there are things I learned now at 39 about this religion that I had no idea and before about a week ago I didn’t dare question or dive into . They don’t ever give you the information . Wonderful video .
@miekekuppen92753 жыл бұрын
Not to mention that children CAN´T CONSENT to things.
@linzrojo3 жыл бұрын
@@miekekuppen9275 exactly!!!!!!! I was born in and never allowed to even question anything or know anything else
@NidusFormicarum3 жыл бұрын
Being a former JW, I often use the word "brainwashed" myself. I am fully aware that what the word expresses is not accurate, but I also expect the receiver(s) to be intelligent enough to understand that it is not a literal "washing" of the mind I am reffering to, which would make absolutely no sense.
@unplugged28423 жыл бұрын
You can wear people down that are tired and I was always tired, that makes people susceptible to coercion and mind control.
@alomaalber65143 жыл бұрын
add in the hard chair and windowless room.
@frances32543 жыл бұрын
Interesting and thoughtful ideas. I'm 85 now and continue on my journey of self discovery, the separating of myself from' them'. I think difficult for all is how to trust and act on one's own beliefs. And that depends so much on those childhood 'learnings'. I'm thankful to you and those like yourself willing to share the journey, it all helps me. NM USA
@petalparker53 жыл бұрын
Choice is based on information given. Whoever controls the information controls the person.
@mailill3 жыл бұрын
I agree totally with everything Lloyd Evans says here. I hope the caller's teachers get to listen to it!
@davidburroughs22443 жыл бұрын
The terms vary with the school of thought the professor comes from - the final idea people get persuaded and get constant motivation from incentives and punishments is probably well recognized - whether we want to call it brain washing, indoctrination, training, words of wisdom, etc.
@kohljackal3 жыл бұрын
If it wasn't possible, there wouldn't be specific techniques for doing it to people. Across cults you find the same playbook. In addition, these same academics have studied and found that our 'onboard computers' are especially susceptible to these techniques. That's not consent!
@deborahd43103 жыл бұрын
Lloyd, you are very intelligent, self taught if you want to call it something. I've been to college and have many above average intelligent friends, so I know somewhat what I am talking about. Anyway, we might not be in the best of time in history that deal with the issues that cults are allowed to get away with. However, we are living in exciting times when activists (and those who support them) will be making a difference in the future. Kind of like when women were able to vote or gained some equal rights. It was a hard fight but worth it. Keep up the good work that you do. It will make a difference.
@phoenixchick50883 жыл бұрын
I fully consent in my belief that her professor doesn't know wtf hes talking about ❕
@Freeeeeeeee273 жыл бұрын
Same. You can study books and come to any conclusion you want but if you don’t have the experience or understanding, you’re going to draw some arbitrary conclusion. I don’t think cults have actually been studying at this point in time. People are only recently now breaking out and talking in this day and age. I feel like after a few decades, this industry will start to understand what cults are really like.
@gailcullinan3 жыл бұрын
AGREED. Alternatively, is her Professor intent on condition her thinking according to what he wants? Alternative thought is the shield and protection against being mind conditioned. Who teaches alternative thought? Good law lectureres and that is AlL.
@marvalice34553 жыл бұрын
He likely has a philosophical or political bias to say that
@DM-rh4ev3 жыл бұрын
Brainwashing is a complete lie if a person allows propaganda and tactics to sway their thinking I call that being weak-minded
@marvalice34553 жыл бұрын
@@DM-rh4ev you can believe ehat you like, but that is not reality
@7eyeswideopen1773 жыл бұрын
After 65 years in the organization I feel using the word brainwashed is the wrong word as it is associated with a person who chooses to join a cult and then are brainwashed in time. With a child who is born in who knows nothing more then what they are being taught and forbidden to even ask or God forbid read anything that goes against the teachings. These professionals with this attude it's as though they put the blame back onto the victims, it's your fault it happened to you, you had a choice. Since when does a child have a choice I know I didn't. They have not studied ones like myself that have been under the control of this organization. They do more harm then good and show how ignorant they truly are. I don't consider I was brainwashed as such because I knew nothing more then what I was taught. By the time you realize you are then held against your will because you know you will lose every single person in your life some choice that is.
@maryannlockwood78063 жыл бұрын
My daughter is going to college and wants to be a clinical psychologist that specializes in helping people that are exiting high control groups. I’m definitely going to share this with her when she gets home from work.💁🏻♀️
@phoenixchick50883 жыл бұрын
That'll be so awesome for the ppl she helps in the future! It's such a frustrating process trying to find professionals that actually know how to help ppl properly. I'm glad there's ppl like this girl and ur daughter, with actual life experience in an area, with real knowledge, out there trying to pursue this career. It's so (encouraging lol) seriously tho 😃
@alomaalber65143 жыл бұрын
also a course in Advertising would help her. Read books on the advertising world and Hollywood magic.
@truthforever55083 жыл бұрын
Thank you Lloyd. A very interesting video. I believe we couldn’t knock on the doors so actively if we were not “brainwashed” as a JW or any term you might want to use. Definitely!!!
@jeneb523 жыл бұрын
So true, in one breath we were told not to talk to strangers, yet the cult told us it was our duty to go out to convert others. If thats not brainwashing the young ones- then what is it?
@julialena31503 жыл бұрын
Its just about semantics i guess but influencing people to do things they wouldnt usually do is real. No matter what you'd like to call that
@lsmmoore13 жыл бұрын
As someone whose current field (in limbo but still) is animal behavior and cognition. Which covers, among other things, how brains in general (including human ones) can be conditioned. Heck, there are some professors teaching courses required of that field who positively BRAG about reprogramming ones. Including one of their biggest claims of all - that they can reprogram an autistic mind into an effectively neurotypical one. It's like they headed in the opposite direction where denialism is concerned,a and instead their biggest denialism is that animals can have any kind of thoughts or feelings (or leaning towards that, anyway) and also denying that there is any meaningful overlap between non-human and human intelligence (even though, even among non-disabled humans, some cannot do certain things cognitively that some of the smartest non-humans can, and even though even our species can and does use a surprising number of cognitive workarounds when you look at it). I guess the kind of denial used depends on what field you're in. And frankly, given that ABA (Applied Behavioral Analysis) therapists make lots of money on the claim that they can "normalize" an autistic brain with what amounts to basically animal training (which you really can't due to fundamental neurological differences), the animal training does serve as a form of undue influence and thus it is kind of disturbing that people in humanities fields ignore this and don't recognize the danger inherent in such things. And while yes, the claim that one can normalize an autistic brain is false, what ABA CAN do is, yes, unduly influence an autistic person into believing that their very being is unworthy and must be purged and that no matter what they do they are incapable of being good and/or must never let even the smallest aspect of their actual self show to a friend lest their friendship dissolve on the spot - an that it is the autistic person's solemn duty to be involved in such friendships, the more the better. And then once they inevitably burn out they are a failure worthy of being disposed of and being condemned to despair forever and ever (which means the person will either commit suicide, become catatonic/depressed, and/or find the autistic folks who are fighting against this toxic influence and join them).
@laislaravanin3 жыл бұрын
It amazes me how much Lloyd overcame the brainwashing of JW to a stage in which he can have a conversation with ANYONE! He is so clear, so calm, and have so many incredible arguments and a perfect vocabulary! How do you do it, Lloyd? I have being fading, I am in grad school and STILL I just get speechless and too damn emotional to talk about any issues around the JW. It is so frustrating. I would appreciate any advice on how calm down my rage and on how to learn how to think! I feel so powerless to engage in any sort of intellectual discussion 😰
@docb83163 жыл бұрын
Ok i am retired but i was clinical. As i listened i was struck by the fact that these same folks who would agree that people who have been in terrible situations would say or do things they would not ordinarily say/do and they would call it Stockholm Syndrome. Soooo?
@alomaalber65143 жыл бұрын
hey, prof. she did not noted to her professors the hard chair and windowless room.
@gailcullinan3 жыл бұрын
Diagnosis is one thing. Cure and or resolve is another. What is your resolve hereto?
@djenebasidibe4683 жыл бұрын
Me having gone to university myself (though a different subject) found Stephen Hassan's approach absolutely helpful!! :) Thank you, Lloyd, for including it. I guess the way he explains it might help the caller a lot. While I do very much accept that "brainwashing" is a thing, I never never ever really would have used the term in a let's say scientific essay for instance. I know that you mean well, Lloyd, and I really think that the caller will appreciate your kind words a lot. :) I just wouldn't go as far as believing that the scientific community might adopt the word brainwashing eventually. First of all: Science - at least the social sciences - is all about finding terms and defining them and eventually redefining them again. And again. As it is also clear when one listens between the lines to Stephen Hassan. He really has done a great job explaining all this. Second, in science, at least in written science, one has to be absolutely NEUTRAL. And brainwashing unfortunately is not a neutral word. BUT and there is a but there, the language of science is often a lot more subtle. If one has been in the scientific community long enough, one will gasp at wordings that others might find meek and mild understanding that they are actually meant to be giving the scientific slap in the face or scientific way of calling someone the a-word. Things like "Concerning the essay in question written by person x: The amount of data on which the assumption is build should be reconsidered and does not confirm to scientific standards." ... e.g. is one of THE WORST THINGS EVER that you can call someone. Luckily for the caller though and because of that language shift from science compared to ordinary language - there are ways to express just that - the meaning of brainwashing without naming it that. One of the things of at least social science is just that. To say a word, define the term how you wanna use it for generally at least half a page long and that's it. Tadaa, there it is! :) Often referring back to other's people's definitions but also explaining where your way of seeing things might differ. Or come up with a completely new term. In defense of the caller though: I do believe that it's ok to sometimes use not the best of words which are generally not scientifically accepted, but in informal language or settings though. So of course she can keep on using it - even with other scientists when it's clear that she expresses an opinion because of her own former background. Or when people in youtube communities share about their past experiences. :) Then we can all freely ramble away. :) And I do believe that the caller generally knows all this. :) Just wanted to explain this to you, Lloyd, as well though. Just to explain that language might work different in a scientific setting. Having grown up yourself at least in parts in a high control setting which despises higher education, I don't blame you for not having optained a scientific degree or whatever. So please don't assume that I am holding this against you. :) About the caller: I think it's like one of the bravest and awesomest things that a person can do in seeing a field where people need help, getting the right tools to help them, plus bringing along a lot of personal understanding and life experience and dedicating their lifes to help others. :) :)
@grf73tube3 жыл бұрын
The positive side of this is that the caller is (or is going to be) part of the academia that could contribute to further the understanding of these issues, for the benefit of future generations. Don’t forget that science is not a straight road. There’s usually controversy and opposition at first, specially with new ideas, but the weight of the evidence eventually put things into their right place.
@junick20123 жыл бұрын
Thank you for your approach on this subject loyd! Appreciate your work.
@unagotaenelmar3 жыл бұрын
Great video, Lloyd!
@halleluyah7573 жыл бұрын
I agree , Lloyd, lack of "understanding" is a problem in academia. When they "have made up their mind" already to the possibilities; what can be farther learned?
@unnefer0013 жыл бұрын
What? That's some Dunning-Kruger nonsense. Academia can run circles around non-experts in their field. Never forget that. If you think an actual expert is wrong about the things they are experts in, you need to understand that you probably are not understanding their point or argument. The problem here is simply one of different defintions. The prfessor is using brainwashing like you see in movies where a person hears a trigger phrase then runs off to kill the president because they were brainwashed. The professor fully acknowledged coercive persuasion which is more or less what the caller is calling brainwashing. Just different definitioins. It's another thing to understand about academia. Definitions matter and it's wise to ask what someone means by a term before arguing against them.
@Maknassar3 жыл бұрын
@@unnefer001 an academic should understand commonly used language. They explain all the time why theory is not a good word for conspiracy theories and what it means in scientific context. Her prof should say, I know what you mean, but in science we call it . . . and not tell their students: thats BS, its your own fault you were in a cult
@unnefer0013 жыл бұрын
@@Maknassar They did. Go back and listen to the caller. Even she says (though she doesn't seem to understand) that the professor explained what they meant. They were not blaming victims. Y'all just aren't understanding the nuance here. There is a difference between The Manchurian Candidate style brainwashing and Cult manipulation style brainwashing. The professor acknowledges it. In one you have now choice and doesn't exist. The other, you do have some semblance of choice. The fact that there are ex-cultists shows that there is "'choice."
@halleluyah7573 жыл бұрын
@@unnefer001 I said:"when"!
@unnefer0013 жыл бұрын
@@halleluyah757 Which has literally nothing to do with the video or call? You just decided to discuss something that rarely happens and that was in no way related to the topic at hand? Color me dubious.
@michaelevans2053 жыл бұрын
Hear, hear, Lloyd! Wife and I were shouting at the screen in frustration......then you came along, spoke sense and all was well!
@livefromtexas93713 жыл бұрын
I was on a high control religion and my pastor said that no one can make you do what you don’t want to do. I found that confusing because it’s obvious that if a person is threatened with eternal hell, how can that person make a healthy decision? It took me years to overcome what I had been taught.
@TheRealVahnLegaia3 жыл бұрын
Saying brainwashing isn't real because the person chose to enter of their own volition is akin to saying that drowning doesn't exist because one chose to enter the pool. Absolutely ridiculous.
@misswarda783 жыл бұрын
This is Lloyd at his best. A humble, thoughtful and well researched response. True intellect on display. Whatever the ‘formal’ qualifications (or not) of an individual the ability/willingness to undertake sincere enquiry is the real measure of challenging ‘orthodoxy’, religious scientific or ideological. Let’s not forget that it is not only ‘religions’ that become fixed in their ideological arrogance and certainty. The ‘scientific’ method is often abandoned by ‘scientists’ so it is refreshing to see this question being handled so carefully.
@viva_labuena_vida3 жыл бұрын
Omg!!! I love you anonymous friend! I tried to send my question to Lloyd but I got scared and back out and in my recording I said "I'm so fangirling right now" too 😂😂 ❤ Great minds think alike!! I'm a ex jw and I have a couple of questions 😭 I need to get over my anxiety lol Lloyd is a person too 😅 Sending positive vibes and energy you guys 🌼✌🏽💕
@reluctantheist52243 жыл бұрын
Very humble Lloyd to pass it on .
@sammyytube59993 жыл бұрын
Yes, I liked his admission and tying in another professional from a prior video.
@paradisefound35363 жыл бұрын
Seems like a semantic debate to appease the egos of those who don't like to think it could ever happen to them.
@laurieschmitz38973 жыл бұрын
Wow! What a great call! What a difference this young lady is going to make for so many struggling people who need someone who truly understands. I’m so proud of her! Thank you Lloyd for playing the call and for doing all that you do.
@cheryllakin67363 жыл бұрын
It's all word games for now. Most JW were born in. We did not come in as adults who could make a chose. I was 3 and my mom didn't miss a meeting and from that time on I was condition to think their way. So I did want to be good I did want to please God. I was taught this was the bath way to pleasing God. That being said there was always this nagging feeling something was off something was wrong. My personality is not one of a follower so it made me always agitated by what I saw and heard. People "in good standing " didn't want to hang out with me and I never wanted to be in their circles. It took me till my 30s to want out. And 42 till I got up the nerve to get out. And then figure out what I believe.
@sammyytube59993 жыл бұрын
So you were seen as a possible bad influence or not spiritual enough. Before you got to the point of not wanting to be around others, I hope that you did not exhaust yourself, constantly comparing and cry in prayer regularly that you are never good enough. What a manipulation from conditioned environments that born in JWs have to go through. Good that you allowed your conscience to keep nagging at you instead of constantly pushing it back to be answered later.
@MakeAllThingsBeautiful3 жыл бұрын
my dad was a door slammer and my mum apathetic, i went to church because i was in the cubs and scouts and every month there was a church parade, so i actually wasn't forced to go to church, i didn't enjoy church or the parade at all, i just wanted to play fighting games, learn to light fires, tie knots and climb trees and go camping, and i guess make friends, the 4 of us who went scouts whittled down to just me in the end, i've been a loner pretty much ever since, i became a Witness at age 26 and left, moved with work and 'disappeared' when i was 36 in 1999. I'm on my way back, watching by zoom, still pretty much, totally alone, i guess i have never learned how to make friends, however, to maybe a larger extent i have learned how to overcome fear, though in the world this translates as reckless, in my experience, however, in the truth it is really everything you need, i am lonely but i don't feel alone, i really want to go out on the ministry but i have work to do first, 'exert myself vigorously' to get back on the 'cramped and narrow path leading to life'. I'd say 'once saved always saved' is far more the hallmark of cult or any movement that involves violence or supports violence even more so, put it another way, anyone who consciously resists the craving for violence is not likely to join a cult, just my thoughts for the day, meaningless as it seems to me that those on this side of the line are the brainwashed.
@stevenclarke56063 жыл бұрын
Well done Lloyd you are doing a great job keep up the good work of exposing the JW Cult. You come a cross as a very intelligent and interesting person.
@CathyHarrisLCSW3 жыл бұрын
Ha! Professors are just humans like elders are. Trust your experience over what people tell you.
@marshajanulis60923 жыл бұрын
it always brings me back to the ''manchurian candidate'' the 1962 film
@csrencz69423 жыл бұрын
It’s chilling how often that film can be legitimately referenced.
@reluctantheist52243 жыл бұрын
Ok .. I don't know the film so I have to ask why it makes you think of it .
@marshajanulis60923 жыл бұрын
@@reluctantheist5224 it's about brainwashing and murder...i highly recommend it
@PastaMaster1153 жыл бұрын
Well it seems to me that academics will only tolerate the use of "undue influence" for a little while before they start discrediting it too, dismissing it as a student's way to avoid saying "brainwashing" or "mind control".
@fcsuper3 жыл бұрын
Great heavy-hitting video today! Side note to the caller's comment about being 18, yup -> you gotta love our modern society's almost superstitious beliefs in the magical properties of one's 18th birthday.
@theyoutubeanalyst37313 жыл бұрын
They prey on people who have no agency, but at the end the people have a choice. Riiiight. As much of a choice you can have with no agency. Jesus Christ, your professor is contradicting herself, wtf.
@jeanniejewel22723 жыл бұрын
Lloyd don't change. Keep being real. That's why you have so many subscribers. Don't play the educated academic game. Kudos to you!
@EfrainRiveraJunior3 жыл бұрын
Who remembers this stupid joke told by many speakers?: “When people say to me that Jehovah's Witnesses brainwash their members, I say to them, ‘Yes, we do! When you become a Jehovah's Witness, Jehovah washes your brain from Satan's dirty world.’” Followed by a fake laugh because no one else did.
@anonymouswhiterabbit3 жыл бұрын
I’ve heard it many times from witnesses, and one day while watching a documentary about a cult, I heard a little girl say it about their religion. Blewwww my mind.
@EfrainRiveraJunior3 жыл бұрын
@@anonymouswhiterabbit - Can you remember the name of the documentary?
@anonymouswhiterabbit3 жыл бұрын
@@EfrainRiveraJunior It’s the strong city cult documentary. She says it at about the 37:30 time stamp.
@lauracatlin37563 жыл бұрын
She should have her professors watch the Caleb and Sophie JW videos
@alomaalber65143 жыл бұрын
and tell the professors about the windowless room and hard chairs.
@lukaj6793 жыл бұрын
I have an undergrad degree in Youth Sociology. Since the field is newer, a lot of my sociology professors complain about the larger community viewing childhood as a stepping stone to adulthood rather than its own culture. We would be more likely than this caller's professor to differentiate between indoctrination and teaching to children, because we focus on autonomy of the person regardless of age. I say this because academia is always behind the movement. I met many professors who had all the knowledge of theory but no experience with high demand religion. I had to teach professors about gender because I'm trans and one even went as far as to sit me down in her office to learn about my experiences. The best professors are the ones that know where their sphere of knowledge ends, and the best students are ones like yourself who try to add their life experience to their learning. Sociologists, Psychologists, and Philosophers are known for debating how much free will exists, and it sounds like this professor believed brainwashing was a phrase connected to determinism.
@eganneal63223 жыл бұрын
Mental Conditioning is what I refer brainwashing as individuals can be mentally conditioned to perceive life / their environment in a certain way.
@sarahexjdub9113 жыл бұрын
Erasing your personality and "putting on the new personality" sounds like brain washing to me. Also informed consent is only possible if you have all the information.
@eccentricbeing3 жыл бұрын
If a person or group instills an intangible fear or dread on another person under a false pretense, that's manipulation. That's controlling someone's intuition and judgment. Sure, the person has a "choice" to believe it but if that person is emotionally vulnerable and the false pretense of fear resonates within that person, that's still manipulation because the person thinks it's true.
@bigelib63733 жыл бұрын
I’m absolutely in favour of refining language as our understanding improves, but the labels we put on harmful mind control techniques, shouldn’t ever disqualify us from at least being listened to! The label should be an afterthought in the discussion. I sincerely hope that more of the academic community will pay heed to experiences from survivors that fly in the face of their current understandings, and also pay attention to experts in these very nuanced and centralized fields like Dr Hassan.
@Cor61963 жыл бұрын
An idea: Dolphins are "trained" to jump through hoops, seals to spin a beachball on their noses, dogs to sit and beg. I imagine that no "thinking" is at play in the animal's brain, but rather a manipulation of brain circuitry so that the subject performs just as the animal trainer/owner wishes. Usually to earn a reward. Similarly, children are "trained" to "go potty." Or they're trained to obey this or that god's commands in order to please this or that god and earn this or that reward - and, more immediately, the parent-trainer's approval and/or reward. Again, no "thinking" is at play: the child's or animal's brain circuitry is being wired (or rewired). So instead of using "brainwashed," an evocative word (especially if you've ever seen The Manchurian Candidate!) but not used by some experts, would it be more accurate to use "brain-trained" or "training the circuitry"? Would it be OK for the young lady to use "circuit training" (recalls "circus training") instead of "brainwashing"? After all, aren't cult members trained to jump through hoops or sit and beg? And for so many rewards!😇
@jewell923 жыл бұрын
If academia insists it is not an appropriate term, they need to tell us what to call it when a child raised in any belief system has had "undue influence" happen to them.
@milham763 жыл бұрын
Eight (at this point) people have downvoted and been ' brainwashed' enough to think that they aren't being unduly influenced by the JW cult. Stephen Hassan makes some very good points and Lloyd's comment about a child's 'agency' being impaired simply by nature of their age is spot on.
@gailcullinan3 жыл бұрын
"Professors" ... define Professors and their faculties and their Universities. Sounds like an ominous premise. Consult a Specialist Psychiatrist to present the scientific proof to you that mind conditioning exists materially, i.e. address the military techniques used herein. Lloyd, it is fantastic that you have addressed this complicated and secretive method utilised by JWs and Gov body. I discovered years ago that JW utilise a method called Neuro Language Programming. I found a pamphlet amongst some JW papers once instructing followers how dangerous hypnosis is. At that time I understood that JW condemns hypno therapy aka hypnosis as it could debrief the JW mind conditioning that they institute via Neuro Language Programming and other mind conditioning methods, like repitition and much more. It was good to hear the academic. Mind conditioning et al is the basis of JW rule. A question. Why have JWs not succeeded in converting me over many many year? Because it is my choice to firstly question their forceful presence upon strangers i.e. When approached I asked them who they think they are forcing their uninvited presence upon me? It floored them and still does. I am afraid to say that they target impoverished communities and broken people which is montrous in attitude. It is reasonable to allow others to make their own decisions and to follow their own thoughts. Anyone who forces their thinking upon another shows Narcissistic personality disordered traits, inter alia. And it is classified as anti-social conduct, to say the least, criminal classified personalities. Please keep addressing this. I habe been on about it from a legal and Criminology point of view for years to protect myself. Dr Hassan as a Clinical Psychologist chose to site on the fence herein aptly. At the end of the day he presents theory which versus fact like the robotic conduct of JWs, et al.
@alomaalber65143 жыл бұрын
she did not note to her professors the hard chair and windowless room.
@alilove17593 жыл бұрын
As an Early Childhood Teacher and Transformational Coach... Our minds are conditioned. Children and adults can be conditioned to believe in something whether it is true or not. It is just easier when done at a young age. If a 5 yr old isnt old enough to get married , they should neither get baptized! A child only knows what they are conditioned to believe. It is only as they grow older and learn who they are as an individual and use their critical thinking that they realize things. But unfortuanately so many young ones stay in the religion bc they are afraid of loosing their family and friends.
@alomaalber65143 жыл бұрын
Ah yes the word "conditioning" excellent and correct, ma'am. Also the art of advertising, the department of psychology and the techniques used in Hollywood magic. Also she did not note the hard chairs and windowless building.
@oceanmariep2563 жыл бұрын
I think it’s more than just academia that’s in denial about cults being real and having unreasonable power over their followers. I think it’s not taught enough in academia so many well educated people are still entirely naive. I’m not a ex-jw, just a former Christian with an interest in hearing stories of escaped cult members. I’ve had a lot of backlash when telling people about my interests. There seems to be a lot of people who think I’m being bigoted against people with different belief systems without listening to my full story. I suspect they’re failing to understand that I don’t hate people for what they believe, I hate when people are hurt by belief.
@exploatores3 жыл бұрын
I am a former Military. you can mess a lot with someones brain. We learned about it. So it would be harder for a enemy to do that to us. I have also some intrest in reading about the darker parts of psycology. It´s not a coincidence that cult members are worked hard and isolated from outside influences. how do you know what is true. if almost all information comes from the cult. even if you figure out that it´s all BS. who should you turn to for suport. If you got no friends or family outside.
@CBrown863 жыл бұрын
True. Being a JW is like being a prisoner in Alcatraz
@exploatores3 жыл бұрын
@@CBrown86 what i wrote could as easy fit. the discription of a abusive partner. It´s kind of simular tactics. It you leave you are with out friends, conections and at it´s worst no way to make a living.
@alomaalber65143 жыл бұрын
you are correct, sir also JW had 3 times a week with a hard chair and windowless room. It surprised me when we finally got a more comfortable theatre style chair for the auditoriums.Also in advertising you can put sounds on the music or soundtrack often called Hollywood magic, it can be fab or not.
@dv65093 жыл бұрын
I can see where the term brainwashing is an issue with academics, though it does exist, even if they feel it best described differently. Indoctrination is a term I use often. If only there was more focus on the meaning behind it, and the extensive effects on the mind, and not so much concern about the accuracy of terms used. For those of us raised in cults, it feels like our experience needs to be given more research (I'm thinking this will happen soon). As someone born and raised jw, I feel as though I was brainwashed. I had no other choice until I left and started my journey to "de-program"
@thomasmorre8963 жыл бұрын
It's really disheartening to hear academics say you make a choice and you are taught. It's not a choice when your taught from a child to do what we say or you will be killed in a horrific way. What can we do to have more attention towards this? Do we need to mobilize as a community of exjws in a political way?
@BriarRook3 жыл бұрын
A friend of mine told me once that anyone that was brainwashed or in a cult was weak and pathetic... a week later we were talking about the blood issue and she said she would die for Jesus (she's catholic) so she doesn't see why it's a problem JWs do it. 😩 I'm just saying, I'm sorry that's super culty. I definitely remember feeling that way.
@davidburroughs22443 жыл бұрын
"Their claptrap is nonsense, my claptrap is reasonable."
@crossroadcircleoffical3 жыл бұрын
Certain colleges can get Cult like. Fraternities in particular are very cult like
@alomaalber65143 жыл бұрын
sociology what side of the interview chair are the on, anyway. JW's had 3 times a week with a hard chair and windowless room, look at advertising that is where all the tricks are!
@DarkLunarNights3 жыл бұрын
when I turned 18, I was forced to get baptized. that professor is so wrong. I've been awake since I was 10. I'm 21 now...I'm still stuck here. - transgender PIMO
@williameramsey18963 жыл бұрын
Good morning Loyd. 😎
@spartan_warrior59273 жыл бұрын
Wow the professor he talked with sounds just like Jeff Goldblum! Lol
@elizabethroblyn13923 жыл бұрын
Undue influence or brainwashing, I was born in and baptized at 19 but df at 21. Although 24 years later I still hve very vivid memories of scriptures and kingdom melodies, I must say that I always hated the meetings or religion. I never cared at all for study or research. But that's jus me. My d@mn memories won't go away 🤷🏽♀️
@roxycastleton13503 жыл бұрын
I was brought up as one at the age of 2 and I thought it was true
@alomaalber65143 жыл бұрын
Yes, I hear ya. We had hard chairs and a room with no windows.
@raventreefrog23053 жыл бұрын
Brain washing is a slang non-scientific word that gives a wide meaning with nothing really definitive. If someone thinks their not susceptible to being influence think again. Marketing is an example. Marketing will appeal to the desires of the heart in a way for the person to consider the product or service. High control groups do the same thing but it’s more cleverly done as it’s objective is to hold you in the engineered mindset. Once you become mentally saturated in that mindset your now an asset for their agenda. Your a servant to it.
@andrewmurphy93023 жыл бұрын
The choice thing.... Advertising sugar, smoking, Pavlov's dogs, rewards and sanctions, 'winning hearts and minds', the £350m brexit bus, Soviet and Nazi propaganda, being told to smile by your boss- a very short list of things that have involved the control of people's behaviour to get them to do or buy something or change their behaviour. Sometimes I think it's harder if you have been in a cult as it's more difficult to 'get on board' with things that people are trying to 'sell' whether that be a political idea or even a different way of carrying out my work duties.
@LoXena3 жыл бұрын
The sad thing is there already are actually lots of academic research on mental influence and the lack of real choices you have when being under influence.
@dreamerofdreams11673 жыл бұрын
I was born in and I definitely was BRAINWASHED 😬 not anymore 😍
@TheHandsomeman3 жыл бұрын
There is mind control, "This is knocking me to sleep"!
@tkat64423 жыл бұрын
I think "agency impaired" is a good term, but maybe it could also be supplemented by something like "agency undeveloped", maybe better worded than that by someone smarter than me. "Impaired" suggests a defect, and a child isn't defective, just not fully developed yet.
@robertshaw76923 жыл бұрын
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” Joseph Goebbels:
@jrojala3 жыл бұрын
That’s just insane.
@saffronhammer77143 жыл бұрын
Professors are infallible?
@alomaalber65143 жыл бұрын
sociology is easy coursework, look at advertising. Read True Believer by Erich Hoffer, a brief book in the psychology department. and of course, Hollywood magic.
@lesliethomas72343 жыл бұрын
I will communicate here as an Adjunct Sociology College Instructor not as an high school biology instructor nor exjw. First I should say that the question is more appropriately placed under the purview of the Psychologist than the Sociologist, although Social Psy is a subset of Sociology. (I would love to ask my psychologist sister who is still in indoctrination mode). I think the issue here (for the layman) may surround popular vs academic vernacular when describing the effect of this kind of persuasive communication on people. What happens to the individuals in question, is what Sociologists call resocialization. Resocialization differs from the regular socialization we all usually experience from birth onward, preparing us for becoming functioning members of society. However, in extreme cases, individuals may have to be resocialized by having a drastic break from their past socialization and into radically different norms and values. The institutions for accomplishing this are termed "total institutions" - where they are cut-off for a period of time and isolated under absolute hierarchical control. The person's personality is systematically stripped away and rebuilt. Examples : boot camp, prison, mental institution and cults. They are to some extent depersonalized by being required to obey rigid rules, with great pressure to confirm to values, norms and regulations of the new environment. Uniforms may also aid the process. The effects can often be long lasting. Yes , your sociology professors are correct, we do not use the word in that setting.
@judgeflems3 жыл бұрын
Well said, sir.
@belladonna703 жыл бұрын
well said Lloyd
@jahmaitrappu3 жыл бұрын
What the professors say resonate with me, i don't believe my parents are brainwashed. The facts are right there and all they need to apply some basic common sense. They are otherwise smart and successful, not victims that are mentally trapped by the governing body. In my opinion, we feel better viewing them as victims so we can assign the blame for their behaviour elsewhere. But maybe the reality is they just choose to love their religion more than their blood.
@alomaalber65143 жыл бұрын
I have seen the "button pushed" with a phrase or two in peoples conversations and then the person will start sprouting dialogs of doctrine. so I politely disagree with you. And it takes will and work to look at what anyone has been taught. signed 3 gen. With a magic show the smartest audience members are the easiest to fool. Advertisers in NYC have all the magic tricks in art and science. Stuff sociologists have never thought of.
@aprayingatheist23783 жыл бұрын
Obviously this teacher doesn't know what she's talking about... She's probably not qualified to be teaching honestly
@yvonne39033 жыл бұрын
The physchiatric community has a book of definitions and I don't know but I suspect brainwashing either isn't in it or the definition is different to what Ex cult members meaning. Not many doctors understand cults. Any diagnosis has a list of criteria that need to be ticked, it's to do with drug trials, it's complex
@andrewxjw3 жыл бұрын
Intellect enhanced from this video
@birdman49673 жыл бұрын
There is another term that I think is relevant to this discussion that has been used by communist and totalitarian regimes: re-education.
@lovelysosweet83863 жыл бұрын
Brainwashing is very real, leads to depression and anxiety, Stockholm syndrome and suicide! Experience is really the best teacher!
@jobob92993 жыл бұрын
I think I agree with the academics on this one. "Brainwashing" happens but is just not the right word. It's a terminology problem.
@MakeAllThingsBeautiful3 жыл бұрын
I've just started reading the Watchtowers from October 1999 when i stopped, not forced, not brainwashed, not manipulated, nothing either way, personal choice, joined up, left, but now i am on my way back to being a Jehovah's Witness, because even the most basic of common sense and enlightenment actually concludes that Jehovah is the only true God, surely he only uses 1 channel, and only the Watchtower identifies any if not all significant prophecies and talks sound common moral sense. If something is right and the best thing to do and is factual, what i would give to be 'brainwashed' even 'manipulated' for that matter, but, be as pathetic as we like, we all have a personal decision to make. Is Lloyd and the entire victim culture clinging to some bizarre hope that people are being brainwashed, or the ultimate irony would be that 'brainwashing' is taught as fact along with the theory of evolution, whereby the only brain washers are those peddling empty, truthless theories, the conflicts here are insurmountable surely, a homosexual wants recognition but has to believe in evolution to get it but surely in a 'survival of the fittest and being able to reproduce' belief system, you'd have to be brainwashed somewhere along the line. The 2021 Friday morning session has a beautiful piece about the human eye, come on, it had to be created, not just the eye but 2 eyes in perfect harmony, infinite volumes of imaging data collected in a glance, if you can possibly, sincerely, believe contrary whose been 'brainwashed'?
@samppakoivula99773 жыл бұрын
Saw Lloyd yesterdaay in a documentary about JW's ^^
@HeliRy3 жыл бұрын
The absolute irony of social science professors saying that brainwashing is impossible… holy crap.
@mousebreaker10003 жыл бұрын
Are you implying that social science professors brainwash their students? Because in my experience the exact opposite happened. All social science professors I know actually teach critical thinking skills.
@alomaalber65143 жыл бұрын
the term is "conditioning". Sociology is rather light weight in terms of course work, look at psychology and advertising and how Hollywood magic is done. Also JW had a hard chair and windowless room.
@firesoulrocker3 жыл бұрын
Ok lloyd your shirt cult life reminds me of park life song. It would be cool to parody that song for cult life theme.
@bettymorales13263 жыл бұрын
misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing. "a cult of personality surrounding the leaders" Similar: My God is my leader...
@anthoniusmuusers62693 жыл бұрын
Baby you break my heart, now let me wash your brain
@solarflare12063 жыл бұрын
I always watch Lloyd on 1.25 speed. He talks way too slow, otherwise. Overall, though, this was a very insightful video.
@csrencz69423 жыл бұрын
Oh shit this is better
@reluctantheist52243 жыл бұрын
With respect are you American ?
@solarflare12063 жыл бұрын
@@reluctantheist5224 Yes, I am.
@reluctantheist52243 жыл бұрын
@@solarflare1206 I wondered . This is quite a standard speed for the UK I think . Just an opinion . I confess to speeding up the GB though since they are usually sleep inducing .
@jamesniagu2743 жыл бұрын
Ok can we agree on manipulation being the correct word?
@PqV72MT43 жыл бұрын
Brain washed is the correct word. So tired of academics talking about what they have never lived through. The church I went to brain washed me. They wanted to clean my brain by eliminating all the sinful wrong unclean /even the words they use point to washing/ beliefs in my brain so that the light /which was just whatever our pastor said / could shine through. I was definitely brain washed. But there is hope. I left before they could clean away my soul.
@davidburroughs22443 жыл бұрын
Common terms are sloppy. They are sloppy for ease of speech. We know we would be delighted every five year old would stop and look both ways before crossing the street, we know we are happy to get through the new employee indoc program at work so we can get to work and get our pay, we know we are happy when every one does what we do almost exactly the way we do, and, we know we are surprised when any one has another way of getting to the same end as we did, and we know we are unhappy any one spends their life in such a way we are sure is useless. Always been true. Always been true people felt the same way as did the guy from early Rome bemoaning the young generation for throwing off the best principles, in his mind, of what made his Rome the greatest thing since sliced bread. We know the Roman wasn't precisely correct and we should see these things in flux are always in flux and the best we can do is to act against the harmful elements, whether it's "based" on supposedly religious, political, philosophical ties - that is, any dependency that is an added, unneeded, harmful and, especially, is identifiable as such. One person's deepest thoughts are another's basis of hilarious joking. The hurt people, people hurt from false crap, is the part that makes one want to cry.
@governingbodylanguage20253 жыл бұрын
1. When I saw the title on my subscription page I thought "Eff that S!" (Brainwashing is real, jerks!) 2. If she was fan girling leaving you a VM, I bet she lost her S when she saw you asking her question to Mr. Hassan! That was great! 3. Doesn't the US military use the term brainwashing freely? Shouldn't they know of all people? The Behavior Panel channel uses the term, at least the ex-USmilitary guys do. I know for sure Chase Hughes does. So, what's the deal, I do know some people say that Military Intelligence is an oxymoron, but gees louise. 4. How the hell do these people not get this when they also study childhood trauma? Hello! Listening to what constitutes pornea when you are 3, having to stay still 3 times a week while listening to mind numbing stuff for one to two hours or you get hit(and hopefully it is not about sex), we are effing traumatized to stay in the effing cult. Oh, and staying out till 10:30, getting home all jazzed up, and then have to get up early to go to school the next day. This is just the tiny tip of the ice berg of brainwashing the born ins experience. Also, they lie to the adults so they do not know what they are getting into, so you can't blame them either. 5. Thank you so much for your rant. It was needed.
@jeneb523 жыл бұрын
Could the better word or words- mind manipulation opposed to brainwashing? Remember the saying three times is the charm, especially during the school on Thursday night. As we all know many are met when they are down, or in a very vulnerable time, so we gave them a hope for a better life. But our minds were then manipulated into a totally different way of thinking! Good response, and maybe she should read his book then pass it on to her professor.
@alomaalber65143 жыл бұрын
the school teacher's comment above notes the term "conditioning". And we had hard chairs and a windowless building.
@jeneb523 жыл бұрын
@@alomaalber6514 Our very first KH had seats like concrete, but it did have windows. Now its a Spanish church, but our last one did have comfy seats - no windows, as if they were expecting the big A to come, lol.
@waynephillips15383 жыл бұрын
Jonestown? Heaven's Gate? Waco?
@stevenmara10253 жыл бұрын
Well it’s a spectrum thing, isn’t it? It’s not a black and white, absolute agency vs absolute subservience thing. No one exists at either extreme, but it sounds like some people would argue that as long as a person has any degree of agency (and that’s everyone) then they are 100 percent responsible for their actions. Also, everything else being equal, degrees of responsibility depend on what’s being demanded of the person. I’d argue that a parent shunning their child because the WT tells them to bears less responsibility for their actions vs a parent who stones their child because the WT tells them to. On a side note, if the WT existed about 4-5 centuries ago, they’d definitely have encouraged parents to stone their disobedient children. The only reason they don’t do it now is because most governments wouldn’t let them get away with it.
@jolinamaitland03563 жыл бұрын
Academics have gotten bored with the same ole teachings and they think they need to come up with new stuff. Now its, brainwashing isn't real. Truman Show