Looking Inside a Breaker Box: what's right and what's wrong

While this work is pretty sloppy, and there are some NEC violations, there is one shining star of good work inside this panel--the SEC to SER cable is wired correctly and the sub-panel is unbonded! Yay!

[@tms2568]

Great video. Well explained. Reminds me of some of the questionable work I encountered in people’s houses in my days as an electrician. I could tell some stories. Worst thing about the hot green wire and its ilk is how dangerous it can be to others working on the house. It’s good that you’re knowledgeable enough to recognize the hazards. Thanks.

[@bobbg9041]

I'll bet a licensed electrical contractor came out and did the main, and sub panels rough in , it passed inspection and the landlord took over from there with the rest of the rewire work.

[@AlwaysBeSmart674]

Idk i think thats more then the average joe could handle

[@agonleed3841]

@@AlwaysBeSmart674 lol nope I aspire to do what I do, correctly. However, I am definitely not licensed, I have rewired a home off just 10th grade, half semester electrical lessons and what I figured to be common sense based on the information I learned here and there added. I can definitely see someone who wanted to save money and really not caring, doing this.

[@jake_of_the_jungle9840]

Always be Smart that’s how I got my electric turned on at my place, I ran the main wire myself too and I was only 17 when I did it. There was an existing box outside I just hooked an outlet under it so that it so it would pass an inspection and get turned on,. Then I ran a main wire from that box to my inside breaker box for my inside electric to be hooked to. This way my indoor wiring didn’t have to be inspected to be turned on.

[@AmericanOne9621]

Another thing I noticed is that electrical box is meant to be installed inside not outside. Those knock out you mentioned will let water pass if a blowing rain comes. Exterior boxes have no knock outs on the side.

[@StringBanger]

The other issue I would brought up is the fact the knockout with the silicon would require a grounding bushing because it would be a concentric knockout because I am assuming the last guy punched out the factory knockout for rear service entry. There is an exception Bonding around prepunched concentric or eccentric knockouts is not required if the enclosure containing the knockouts has been tested and is listed as suitable for bonding. Thanks for the vid!

[@arbeeex]

I bought an old house in southern Indiana where the closest thing to a building inspector is a realtor appointed by the mayor. In my house someone ran a cable for the stove out the back of the panel which was mounted on the inside of the exterior wall, and ran it down the outside of the building then under the threshold of the back door and on to another hole which led to an outlet box with a 50A outlet on the inside. The old 10ga cable was only rated for interior use. What really struck me was that the electrician who installed it put his business card inside the service panel door. If I ever need an electrician, (unlikely) I sure know who I would not hire. Another house in the same town that my ex wanted to rent needed more outlets and she asked me to do the work. When I looked at it, there was no service entrance, just a small 40A double screw type indoor fuse box up under a little shed roof over the back door. I contacted the building permit guy / inspector and asked him what to do about it. He said he did not know so I asked him what he did when he inspected new construction. Oh, he said, I ask the electricians if they are doing it correctly. I haven't bothered getting any info from the city and make sure everything I have done is to 2013 code OR ABOVE.

[@ezrabrooks7785]

10AWG is good for 30A

[@denvercharlebois709]

Lol that's so wrong in so many ways. Using a green conductor as a hot wire to carry current to a water heater. I hope the person that ended up dealing with that issue paid close attention to that. I have also found as a third year apprentice how many panels in residential homes are not wired correctly. Most times then not the awg doesn't pass the ordeal length and ambient temperature of the conduit. You have to derate that shit before sizing in the correct wire. Idiots will be idiots i guess. Thanks for the video btw very informative!

[@rtel123]

Had a chat with a gov inspector about the rule of not too many wires thru a hole, based on heat dissipation. Makes sense, EXCEPT, it is becoming common for branch circuits to be surrounded by spray foam insulation for the entire length. So, accumulated heat can go nowhere. He sheepishly admitted that no one has acted on this new problem.

[@pietskiet8763]

its a distibution box ,,, not heating panel ,, it should only be at ambient temp , not above ,, heat in electrical panels = major concern ! ! !

[@bg147]

Great video. Seeing the multiple meters reminded me of my last apartment. Over the year or two, my bills were not making sense based on my usage. So, one day, the guy who lived next to me moved out and my power went out. I called the power company, a guy came out when I wasn't home and he checked my power and all was well. I got home and it was still out. So, I had to go outside, checked the meters, saw which dials were moving and solved the problem. They had the meters improperly labeled and we were paying each others bill. It was amazing.

[@zerocool5878]

I hope you made them go back and retroactively fox your over payments

[@bg147]

@@zerocool5878 I believe they did that for me.

[@docmemory7626]

Interesting. That big bundle is nasty, but doesn't need de-rating for heat since it is less than 24" long. That water heater circuit would all depend on the breaker, if it is safe for the wire? Or being run at more than 75%.

[@z1522]

The water heater current draw and specs absolutely dictate the amperage rating, which absolutely sets the wire gauge as well as the breaker size. You can't use wire too small for the current load, and you must use a breaker appropriate for the size wire or else the load may try to draw more current than the wiring can safely handle; ex. a 20amp breaker will not trip even as 14 gauge wire is dangerously overheating if the load is exceeding its maximum safe load of 15 amps. If both wire and breaker agree, but are too small for the load, it will be frequently tripping. Duh.

[@frankpaya690]

@@z1522 10 gauge copper would suggest a 30 amp breaker. It all depends on the appliance, if 30 amps would be enough. overcurrent size is determined by the number of amps called for by the appliance. And you're wire would have to be the right size for that amperage.

[@jdtv...9134]

Definitely a handyman special! Code varies depending on where you live. Philly still follows 2008 & the further out of the city you get the newer the code.

[@StephanLeming]

Thank you very much for the informative video! Very well done and explained perfectly.

[@amodelanime2]

am still a electrician helper and still learning so thanks ^^

[@bernardoprovenzanno9487]

Are you still an apprentice?

[@the1spyderryder]

It seems to me you could knock out enough knock outs in the bottom of the box to fix the silicon problem with the branch circuits. As far as the water heater.... ( SMH ) it should be replaced.... Good luck and thanks for the great video.

[@ronaldarchibald2506]

Wow they used a green for a hot plus it was undersized. In my 22 years experience I have seen a green used as a energized conductor only once and it was on an elementary school. Looked like a building maintenance guy had added a circuit. We tore that out and fed the load properly. That branch circuit panel entrance was just terrible. I have never seen one done that incorrectly. I have seen them come through a punched hole with no connector. We removed and added a connector. It's scary what some hacks try to pass as electrical work.

[@revup67]

good illustrations on finding what's wrong. That green wire stood out like a sore thumb

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

I suspect you're right on all counts. It also appeared that this house originally had a gas water heater, so that also supports the likelihood that an electric water heater was added. Maybe the gas water heater was still operational when that panel was installed, and hack #2 installed an electrical water heater when the gas one crapped the bed?

[@arjaya]

I noticed some doubled up neutrals for the branch circuits in that panel. That is a code violation. One neutral per terminal is permitted. I would probably put a hoffman box in and fix those branch circuits, unless you are completely re-doing the wiring and removing the sub. Nice explanation on sub panels and how they function.

[@stevetotten5565]

That panel should be a main lug panel not a main breaker panel because the 100 amp disconnect is already protecting that panel. This is not a violation but would cost more to install. However I don't know any inspector that would pass that installation with all the wires coming through one knockout .

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

Still waiting for that contact info. You are correct I mispoke in the video so let's clear it up: SEC and SEU are 3 wire cables for mains and SER is 4 wire for subs where the panels are unbonded. If that wasn't clear, it is now. I think I've clearly allowed this to go on long enough for viewers and readers to learn from this thread. I'll leave your posts up as a cautionary tale for folks to properly check their contractors. I suggest license, criminal and credit check on the SP or the DPOR rep.

[@jimmysmith3070]

Just wanted to say thanks for the tip better to do it right .

[@johnstanley8324]

About the green wire in the water heater circuit: you are correct that it should be #10 and shouldn't be green for identification purposes. However, the wire doesn't know what color it is, and, in my opinion, using a green wire for a hot conductor is the least critical mistake this guy made. Every other error you pointed out is a potential fire hazard. Wire color is simply an identification issue similar to ones I run into all the time. An experienced electrician working on the water heater circuit should be able in work around the wire color issue. If not, he can simply phase it with red or black tape.

[@johnstanley8324]

Another issue I don't think you pointed out is that the panel is rated for indoor use, and is being used outdoors in a location that should be classified as damp or wet.

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

You're right on all counts--espexially that electrons don't care. But, I do think it's a danger. Not for a real electrician paying attention as you pointed out, but for a pseudo savvy homeowner or even a real electrician that's just distracted and having a off day. The first thing that pops in my mind when a see green insulation is ground and if I opened an older panel with no main disconnect at the meter, I could get hurt if my mind wasn't focused. But you're right. I just think it's nuts not to go out and just get the right wire.

[@dlrwirelesspro]

James, were you saying that there should be three or four wire running from the disconnect to the main breaker panel? Which is correct? I have a detached garage that the disconnect in my yard 100 feet away from the main breaker panel inside the garage. Are 2 ground rods needed at the disconnect and 1 to 2 needed at the main breaker panel? The neutral main service line has one ground rod at the pole where the electric comes onto the property.

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

Daniel Burgess In all new (and rework) situations, the main panel is the main disconnect switch. This is located either right after the meter box, or in modern applications the meter box and main disconnect switch are just one box. This main disconnect switch becomes known as the main panel. From this point two or more grounding rods are run. You could use one rod if you have an approved electrician verify to the AHJ that the rod is 25 ohms or less, but frankly a ground rod is $10, so no one takes the 1 rod approach since it costs more. I generally run 3 to 4 ground rods, but 2 are required by law. From this panel all panels afterward (even the first one with all the breakers for your home) are considered subpanels. This means that 4 wire SE cable is used from this point onward. If you have subpanels feeding from a subpanel (like one running to a detached garage), then you will still use 4 wire SE cable. Though it is not always required, you can run another grounding rod out at the garage off that subpanel. It's a good idea to have extra. Remember that all metal water lines and gas lines need to be properly bonded to the grounding system as well. A great book for homeowners doing their own work Wiring A House by Cauldwell. All this is covered in there as well as how to properly bond other metal conductors (ducts, water lines, gas lines) to the grounding system.

[@dlrwirelesspro]

I am setting up 200 amp service to my garage/apartment/man cave. I originally bought a meter base disconnect combo for where the service company was going to put their meter. Currently I have bought two 3/0 copper hot legs and one 2/0 copper neutral to run from the disconnect to detached garage 100 feet away and 3 ground rods (2 at the disconnect and 1 at the breaker panel). Given what you are saying that all panels after the disconnect are sub panels I would need to buy ground wire between the disconnect and breaker panel 100 feet away. If I kept my install the same I suppose I would need 4 gauge green stranded copper to run the 100 feet from the disconnect to the garage? That would run another $100+ given the price of wire by the foot. To avoid the extra $100+ should I only put the meter 100 feet from the building, put the disconnect outside the building, and the breaker panel inside on the other side of the disconnect? Then I would only need a ground wire for a few feet into the wall on the other side of the disconnect? How many ground rods would I need in this configuration?

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

Daniel Burgess First off, you should always consult a local licensed electrician for specific advice and take everything you read on the internet with a grain of salt. Second, I can't advise you in any formal specific fashion because I can't see what you're doing and I'm only a GC not a licensed electrician. Those two things being said, I'm happy to share some general things! 1. If you bought stranded wire by the foot (and you sized it as you think is right) then you need to run that in conduit or if it is SE approved then you need to bury it at adequate legal depth. 2. No matter what you need conduit where it comes from the earth on each end. 3. I would probably have purchased SER 4 wire SE cable (double insulated all wrapped up in a nice combo) and buried it greater than 2 feet using conduit on each end. I would have used alloy too since it's way cheaper than Cu. 4. If you're running new service with a second meter, you don' t need to deal with running the cable to the meter box. If your outbuilding is going to be on its own meter, you only deal with wiring from the meter onward (if it's underground) and from the weatherhead down (if it's still old school from the pole). 5. If you're running from the existing house, then you need to upgrade your existing 200 amp service to 400 amp service (see the book I suggested above for how to do that). 6. Do you really need 200 amps in the garage? I bet a 60 amp subpanel would be fine unless you're really using a lot of power out there. In that case, you can run a 60 amp breaker from the existing panel to the new subpanel. I think you need a licensed electrician to come out there and help you calculate your needs and plan this out a bit better. I have 60 amp in my shop and I weld, grind, etc. out there and it's fine.

[@jimmyjames6318]

Thanks James. I thought I could just google why the lights in my house flicker, but after watching your video, most of which went over my head, I'm calling a professional electrician. I figure that's better then waiting for the house to burn down, or kill myself fixing it:-)

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

+James James I like the way you think!

[@canyoncrow11]

+James JI may go take a course in this and learn how to do this .

[@muddyriverdogz]

Have a beer and Get R Done !

[@SB-kk3wi]

There are many reasons why lights flicker. Sometimes from a heavy load coming on like a heater fan or dishwasher in a home with an older ungrounded system (2 prong outlet - hot, neutral, but no ground wire in the outlet box). But if you have aluminum or copper clad wiring in your home lighting and small appliance circuits (15a and 20a), it is very common for there to be a loose, arcing connection somewhere and only an electrician experienced in repairing AL wiring should work on it. AL wiring was common in the late 60's to mid 70's when there was a copper shortage and high prices. This is a good video, but homeowners should never do this kind of work. There are too many codes (local and national) to know and understand for the common homeowner to safely do service panel upgrades and changes. If you do it wrong and damage your home, your insurance company will have the right to deny your claim as it wasn't installed to code or by a licensed electrician. - As a retired electrical contractor. I have plenty of horror stories about homeowners getting hurt and damaging their homes.

[@Guillotines_For_Globalists]

Maybe a breaker is arcing in your panel. I experienced this throughout the past month of May. Got it figured out myself. Two of the breakers in my panel were old and arcing.

[@Rob-dm2qb]

Replaced main breaker box and breaker. old breaker was smoking and had a lot of corrosion on top of the breaker.

[@richardfossani6421]

Nice video James. What is the reason that the neutral and ground wires don't get bonded in the subpanel?

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

If they are bonded the ground becomes a constant grounded conductor instead of an emergency path. The neutral does carry back a trivial amount of voltage from 120 circuits. Maintaining separate paths is vital.

[@richardfossani6421]

Why doesn't the same thing hold true when there is just one panel? With one panel, the ground and neutral are bonded. Thanks for your help.

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

Richard Fossani At the main panel the short path to ground is out of the house. Electricity will take the path of least resistance and flow back to the ground (and not back into the home). Ground circuits are required to have 25 ohms or less of resistance (install one and have it measured or install two or more with no measuring requirement. A great book to get is Wiring a House by Rex Caldwell. There are diagrams and illustrations that accompany the copy and they are very informative. If you bond anything but the main panel, the inspector will make you do it over, so head's up on that! The ground circuit should be isolated except for the very last bonding at the main panel.

[@WAQWBrentwood]

+James Glass The bonding of the ground and neutral in subpanels (especially older work) is common. Anyone checking out or adding breakers to a subpanel should check to see that they are properly isolated from each other while the cover is off, even if it looks like "a nice job"! - Great video!

[@dukeman7595]

Very well done, lucid and informative. Did you buy as a income property ? Will you upgrade and keep the 3 apartments ?

[@MrCinimod93]

we use 12/2 on a 20 amp breaker for watter heaters all the time here in canada

[@bee4pcgoldrule592]

12 used to be rated for 30 amps in the 50s 60s here. But it was de-rated to 20amps to prevent overheating of the conductor. probably why so many use it is because it may be a smaller load type and people rarely turn them to up to the max.

[@markhammond4539]

@@bee4pcgoldrule592 there are 240 volt water heaters that only need a 20 amp circuit. I've installed at least twenty.

[@dylanlink1243]

Mr. Glass if you see this comment could you please explain the purpose of not bonding the neutral and ground wires in sub-panels? Thanks

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

The neutral wire is a grounded conductor (not to be confused with the so-called hot wires which are ungrounded conductors). The ungrounded conductor neutral return carries only millivolts, but it's called the grounded conductor because electricity can and does travel through it in 120 volt circuits. The ground circuit is NOT a conductor and it's only function is to carry current when something goes wrong (like a line wire falls against a metal box or fixture casing). If you bond the ground and the neutral return, you're putting current on the ground circuit. This will allow appliances to function, but it defeats the purpose of maintaining a emergency path back to ground. Bonding should occur at the main panel where the grounded conductor from the transformer is the shortest path to complete the circuit and where an alternative path of less than 25 ohms goes to ground rods in the earth where unwanted electricity can safely go without harming people.

[@therealromster]

James Glass Their is another reason why the neutral and earth is only bonded at the main panel, that you forgot to mention. If the neutral wire breaks anywhere in the system. the earth wire is still grounded. If we all used the neutral as the ground and return, (tied neutral to metal case of appliance,) then if the neutral wire got disconnected for what ever reason. The metal case carries the full mains voltage! Having a separate earth wire prevents this. Also a separate earth lowers hum on audio gear. as the earth carries no substantal current (except filter capacitors) under normal conditions. Means their is very little voltage difference to cause earth loop hum.

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

therealromster Yes! That too! The importance of maintaining a separate ground is probably the biggest misunderstood thing among DIYers. What if the hot came loose and landed on the metal casing of an appliance? Without that dedicated ground, the next person to touch the appliance would be a part of the circuit! As a GC, I sometimes even see older licensed electricians making these common mistakes (their licenses was grandfathered), and they argue with me over what's right. There's no arguing with the building inspector though!

[@jackfisher3906]

A friend of mine has a Challenger 150 amp 30 Circuit panel of similar design and it has the exact same problem, which was causing lights to flash and TV to go off on the effected circuit, but the breaker never tripped, he thought he had a defective breaker and changed it a couple times before noticing the burnt missing plastic insulator on buss bar as shown in your video.

[@nightelf7701]

James, thank you for the video!

[@pukeschannel6882]

I've seen many holes filled w/silicone over the years. I've never seen silicone allow a wire to wear through to the metal part of the hole and short out. It may be odd and unconventional, but so far, I have never seen it cause a safety issue.

[@Mac-StayTrue]

Bet that was fun rewiring

[@KRConnection]

thank you, interesting,,the ground & neutral are still a little confusing?

[@jordanc1102]

Im just wondering after seeing this video what is connecting those two neutral bars together? on is fed by the main neutral from the disconnect, but i don't see anything connecting the two neutral bars together.

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

The grounded conductor (neutral) bus bars are connected by an insulated flat plate in panels. In subpanels the ground bus bar is not bonded to the "neutral" and the ground bus is connected to the panel itself. It's hard to see the connection.

[@jordanc1102]

Been long time since I’ve seen it go behind the bus bar, must be an old panel 👍 but I do prefer Siemens or Square so that might explain it.

[@MikeL-vu7jo]

I did handy man work for many years , bathrooms , you name it , the first faze was always remove and replace any of the , Do It Yours Self Work , I ran across or it would haunt you in the future , it was Nerve Racking , Thanks .

[@thomasmoeller2961]

Great video. Learned a lot ! Thank you for posting it.

[@JP-hj7fc]

I just picked up a 24 breaker Siemens Main panel from Home depot and a ground strap is connected to the neutral bar that runs back to the meter. I though the neutral had to be isolated from the ground?Should that strap be removed? Otherwise both the neutral meter and ground are connected to the box. Seem to defeat the purpose of isolating the neutral. I have read that a SUB panel needs to be isolated but unclear about the main panel.Thanks

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

It's bonded at the main panel. It doesn't defeat the isolation of the two in sub panels, etc. because the short path for the electricity is back to the transformer from the bonded main. Also, note that new meters with a main disconnect are considered the main panel, so the breaker box inside the house is actually a sub panel--even it it looks like the main panel. Of course, I'm not a licensed electrician so you should consult someone locally, but a great book is Wring a House by Rex Cauldwell. I've read it cover to cover and it's one of the best books to learn the basics of residential wiring!

[@JP-hj7fc]

James Glass When you refer to a "Bonded Main" are you talking about the meter box? I am referring to a Main Panel not a sub panel that would be after the main. so from the meter it connects to a 100Amp panel with 2 legs 120V each and 2 neutrals. The neutrals have a cross bar to connect to the other side of the inside box to allow the other breakers to connect to it. One of the neutral bus bars is connected with a copper strap to the steel box of the panel. That is the area that I am questioning. Does that help?

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

SW Virginia--we have a brick yard here and all the right stuff to make a lot of brick! Good eye.

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

Again for the folks following this: check out your contractor by running criminal, license and credit checks. If not a sole-prop, then check the listed agents of the LLC via the contact info at DPOR. If you get a guy like Skilled Eddie, be wary. The building inspector has the final say after the work has been inspected, and your contractor should pull all permits. There's never any reason to argue with code and a good building inspector.

[@GeorgeW6]

I just read this for fun as I am not qualified to do anything electrical beyond simple homeowner type work. What I wish is that there was a way to delete the stupid posts from the trolls. People here are interested in learning, not reading some clown's idea of great fun.

[@cat-lw6kq]

I wonder if a home owner did that wiring, and who inspected it?

[@fishingindeepwater]

To make a long story short. Wife plugs in vacuum cleaner in GFCI in bath room, trips breaker. Go to 200a panel and no breakers are red. First test bath GFCI. I have 120v from line to ground but not to neutral. So now I think I lost neutral somewhere. Panel is a 15a GFCI breaker. So I tear apart 5 branches looking for dropped neutral. No luck. Decide to push white button on panel breaker and reset. OK, now I have power to all branches. Almost like the panel breaker only broke the neutral?

[@MCoblentz62]

subbed, great vid..AND we share the same last name so what the hell ;) gotta go check a restaurants system out this morning, they lose an average of 2 tv's per lightning strike and I'm getting tired of repairing the PS boards on them ...lol I suspect a sub-par ground from the 50's, stay tuned

[@DaveBowman345]

Excellent video! I wondered... does it matter which main conductor terminal receives either of the two main hot wires? Are they interchangeable? My new mobile home lot has 4 wires: one green, one white (ground & neutral) and two main power wires but they are indistinguishable from each other except that I know they each go into one of the two main power terminals. Thanks for any additional info you can send.

[@SLYSPYHIWAY90]

Hot legs are interchangeable , they will each carry 120 volts . putting a voltmeter across them will measure 220-240 volts so DON'T touch them together

[@anthonyhitchings1051]

nice and clear on ground and neutral :-)

[@randybono2626]

I really learned from this video. Thanks for sharing.

[@makerofmanythings8447]

Double lugged neutral wires don't bother you? I thought I saw some.

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

You probably did! Yes. Those too.

[@MonacoMike]

Well done. Excellent explanation. Thanks for sharing.

[@javierpuerta8074]

NEC 2017 Lighting fixtures above a pool must be installed at a minimum height of?

[@alext9067]

That heater is pulling less than 15 amps. 10/2 would be necessary for a 110v circuit. That one is clearly 240v.

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

These heaters all have at leasr 2 3500 watt elements and most have 4500 watt ones. That means no 40 gallon heater will use less than 7000 watts and most use 9000. That's 29 to 38 amps. Math is math. The correct size cable and correct install is where it's at if you don't want a house fire.

[@alext9067]

@@JamesGlassJamesGlass You said that the heaters run generally 3500 to 4000 watts. I'm going by the info in the transcript, which reads as: "the final mistake this is a water heater 07:26 circuit it's a water heaters run 07:31 generally 3500 4000 watts basically it 07:34 requires a 10 gauge as a heavier gauge 07:36 wire looks like this it requires a 10 07:39 gauge circuit it's got 12 so this is 07:41 under sized for the circuit this is 07:43 incorrect..." 4000 watts/240=16.666 amps. Using 2 12 gauge wires is perfectly fine. Now, if you mean 9000 watts, then that's a different story. I'm just going by what you said.

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

Alex, that id times 2. Each element is 2500 to 4000 watts. Most these days are 3500 to 4000. I am guessing this one wad 2500 but that's per element. So that heater was probably 5000 watts, maybe 7000 hence #10 and above. I think the confusion is each element is 2500 and up, again often 3500 and up times 2

[@rupe53]

Just a pointer to those coming here late: Neutral and ground should be on separate wires all the way back to the point of first service disconnect. In simple terms that means wherever the main breaker is for that service. If the main breaker is in a panel then all branch circuits and sub panels will have ground and neutral unbonded (not tied together) all the way back to that point. If the disconnect (main breaker) is at the meter then there is no bonding of neutral and ground in the first panel and the bonding must happen out at that first breaker. That means you need 4 wires back to the meter / main breaker area. The point of first disconnect is where your ground rod gets tied into the ground buss bar. You can have main breakers in any panel throughout a building but they must ALL be treated as a sub panel with unbonded ground / neutral going back to the first point of disconnect. (4 wires) The point of "first disconnect" is the ONLY place neutral and ground can be tied together / bonded.

[@Docklead]

rupe53 could you give an example of what would happen if a sub panels ground and neutral were bonded and a short happened somewhere in the circuit?

[@rupe53]

I can't give a specific series of things to look for but I can tell you why it's against code. It's mostly due to why they allow the ground wire to be smaller than the neutral wire. IOW, ground is not supposed to carry current on a regular basis so it can be smaller than the current carrying neutral conductor. If you were to experience more than a single short within the system (rare but possible) or the neutral connection went bad (more common) the wire is simply not rated to carry enough juice. Now the oddball issues... GFIC and arc-fault circuits will go nuts in some cases and you will be pulling your hair out to find the problem. An example of when this might rear it's head could be as simple as a tree branch yanking on the service wire... or it may be totally intermittent and depend on circuit use. Of course the main thing that will happen is you flunk your electrical inspection!

[@Docklead]

rupe53 Thanks for the well written and descriptive response. I have more or less a picture in my head of this situation. Just started apprenticeship

[@rupe53]

@@Docklead … BTW, years ago (decades ago?) people thought the more grounds the better and you might find grounds (and ground rods) in all sorts of places like near a pool pump, next to a generator, and even by a shed or out-building that had a sub panel. Here's the rub on that line of thinking... due to varying soil conditions you can have a voltage potential between those (widely spaced) ground rods. The new line of thinking (and current code) is all grounds go back to a central location, then out to your service ground. (usually 2 rods spaced 8 ft apart) The main service ground should be a single piece of wire from the buss bar by the service disconnect, all the way to both ground rods, without any splices. In most locations you also need a bond to a cold water pipe within the structure on that same continuous run. Sometimes it requires a bit of thought and stringing ground clamps along the wire so you don't have to cut it along the way. Oh, and a tip for new guys.... triple check where the water comes into the house before you drive a ground rod. Had one of my guys call our office at 4 pm on a Friday when he accidentally hit the water main while rushing to finish a job.

[@sorrow413]

question in the box in my basement their was a green wire that didnt look like it was connected to anything but it was i think touching he box my friend removed that wire from the box was that a grounding wire and if so why wasnt it torching anything or connected to anything? what are the dangers ?

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

Andrew Ryan if it was a metal box and the green wire was attached to the box, then that is the ground. it should be tied to both the device and the ground wire that goes back to the main panel otherwise the box (and any device/fixture) is not grounded.

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

Yea, NEC is pretty clear about not using green as a conducter!

[@tlong2374]

Great information. Really help me to understand. Thank you..

[@ThreePhaseHigh]

It’s that new and they let them use entrance cable wow wished you had a quick shot of the overhead triplex. And to ever put it in had to have some idea what he was doing. Enough to be dangerous at least.

[@AlwaysBeSmart674]

DAmn you should make more video's like this

[@dallas5374]

Hire a professional. Great video. It’s all how you interpret the code. I have ran this many wires through the back of a panel before. If you use the proper bushing, the wires are protected from energizing the panel and causing a short. On new construction I would never do this, but on a remodel yes. On new construction you can buy RC-50s. They’re plastic connectors great for Romex.

[@frankpaya690]

I haven't found that much in the code- open to interpretation. To me it's spelled out pretty clearly, most of the time. how many wires you can have in a given size box depends on the dimensions of that box, and the size of the wires. You need to know how many total amps you have, to choose a panel box. They have ratings on them for how many amps, they are for.

[@Blackford86]

What does 2-2-2-4 mean in wiring??

[@bee4pcgoldrule592]

Its a service entrance cable bundle 3 # 2 gauge insulated wires and a bare #4 ground in a medium plastic sheating. 2-2-2-4

[@electricianron_New_Jersey]

Technically, those service disconnects need to grouped together as described in 230.72

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

+electricalron So sorry to have just seen this--yes, anything now would have a nice panel with all the meters and disconnects--this was allowed in VA in the 90's. At least they required main disconnects! Before that, there was no requirement for them. I also can't believe they didn't require the previous electrician to install a proper weatherhead.

[@captainhowdy3104]

They left the box bond on the neutral bar on the left

[@jbackus9662]

If the white and the bare grounds connect together at any point what's the difference. It does not make any sense.

[@justinbeard6464]

No issue with running that many wires through the back of the panel. As long as is less than 2 feet, you can stuff as many wires as you want through an opening. Heat is not an issue. Look it up. The silicone is BS tho

[@lectroken]

I would disagree and go along with the person doing the video. I know it is not correct to go through a knockout without any kind of connector there which is intended to also provide a smooth edge where the conductors enter the panel. Most of the romex cannot just be shoved through a knockout with any kind of bushing.

[@16v15]

The fact of the matter is that hundreds of wires are routinely bundled for passing through bulkheads and such. You're right, a bushing, or connector is required for passing trough the knockouts.

[@dallas5374]

It’s all how you interpret the code. I have ran this many wires through the back of a panel before. If you use the proper bushing, the wires are protected from energizing the panel and causing a short. On new construction I would never do this, but on a remodel yes. On new construction you can buy RC-50s. They’re plastic connectors great for Romex.

[@glaucouswingedgull]

justin beard I would guess that the person who put the silicone in, was not to keep out water. It was because he wanted to protect the wire from the sharp edges of the knockout. I’d guess it would serve that purpose, although others would think it inadequate, or at the best, unprofessional. If I remember correctly from when I did such work, there wasn’t a bushing of that size to protect the wire, or if there was, it wasn’t commonly used, so the guy using the silicone was going beyond common practice to protect the wire. Seems when I did such work, I’d keep the outer insulation of the romex intact as it fed into the box, and only stripped the outer insulation off after it got into the box. This gave the wire an extra layer of protection against a potentially sharp box knock out edge. Using silicone would definitely make it much more difficult to add additional circuits, but that is the one complaint I have about the trades. They generally do not think about the next guy who has to do some service.

[@scabbard56]

Some asswit using a green wire as a hot is pretty damn scary. Nice explanation. Cheers from from Floyd County!

[@robox91]

So if you're going to work on the electric installation and you switch off the fuse box the return wire is still connected?

[@frankpaya690]

Neutrals are not installed with a breaker for the neutral, unless by opening up the neutral it would simultaneously open up the hot.

[@dwurry1]

Great explanation on grounding....

[@dieseldan3545]

Have a question about my main breaker.My panel is labeled as 125 amp ,the main wires coming in are 2 gauge copper but. they are hooked up to a main 60 amp main breaker .I think this main breaker must have been changed by previous owner by mistake.Shouldnt my main breaker for this be a 125 amp?

[@sapreaper]

It doesn't need to be. If you ever trip the 60amp then I would up the breaker but otherwise, no point. I will assume you are 100% sure this box is NOT a sub-panel.... Either way it doesn't change the answer. Maybe the 60amp sufficed and was cheaper :) Either that or the main wire was damaged? And had gotten hot pulling more amperage? Hire a certified electrician to check it over **I am not a certified electrician** :)

[@javierpuerta8074]

GUARDING BY ELEVATION FOR 600- VOLT CIRCUIT REQUIRES AN ELEVATION OF?

[@WizzRacing]

You can tell its a hack job, because they used MC and then used 12\2 where a 10\3 was needed for the water heater. Didn't add a bushing or nipple for the branch circuits. I doubt they did the sub-panel bonding right on purpose but rather tossed the bonding screw away not knowing what it was for. The whole thing looks like shit, and is dangerous using a insulted ground wire as a current carrying conductor that could kill someone. If you're a field service electrician never assume anything was done right.

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

The whole thing is shit, and you might be right about the subpanel bonding. Anyone can get lucky. I see garbage like this all the time, sadly.

[@arbeeex]

Interesting video BUT a simple four foot piece of wood (piece of stair rail or closet pole or scrap 2 x 2) to mount the camera on would facilitate a steady picture. Panning and zooming should be done slowly and it will improve the viewing experience and enhance your information presentation.

[@heroknaderi]

I appreciate it Incredible

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

@kdarkryder I see this often enough--especially in older electricians that haven't kept up with NEC and older inspectors that haven't either. Better training has helped inspectors, but it's likely in this case, they didn't pull any building permits. I couldn't find any at least when I checked. So, likely and old school or sort of knowledgeable person did this work, but the devils (and personal safety) is in the details. We has a bad trailer fire in the area recently because (next box)

[@deejaygarimi5433]

Gingerly stepping into careful research to see what materials I may need for my slummy place. It does not have enough dedicated 220 for the appliances I moved with nor enough breakers for the added outlets (stove an dryer rigged together :c . No water heater or furnace yet). Though I was a general contractor for years in my youth, I barely touched electrical and not worked actively in the field since 1993. Obviously not familiar with current code most the wiring will be wutever passed in1968. Obviously I will have to work with an electrician since there is a huge difference in installing right from framing onward vs retro-renovating horrific 'this looks gud' add-ons from 50 years to present. It is such a mess I don't know where to start. I don't mind ugly and broken to tolerate as I renovate but sketchy wiring is scary to me. That and roof are a priority.

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

Sounds like the place to start is: 1. Determine your electrical needs. List all the appliances, fixtures, lighting, etc that you want in your house. Make a list of everything. 2. Find out how many amps each appliance uses and add it up. This will determine what size service you need. Residential usually uses between 200 and 400 amps. 3. Figure out how many spaces you need in the panel. Each 240 appliance, for example, requires a dedicated circuit so two spaces each. Code here now requires all outside outlets (lighting and receptacles) be on a designated circuit. Usually you need at least one 40 space panel. 4. Armed with this basic knowledge, hire a licensed electrician to come out and see what you have vs what you need based on your list. It sounds like you just need to rewire it all. At a minimum, you will need a new 200 amp service with main disconnect at meter and one 40 space panel. That's $5000 to 10,000 depending on a ton of things. You are responsible for everything from the meter onward. If it's determined you need upgraded cable coming into the meter, that is done by your power company. Charges may apply. It also sounds like you need to rewire the house. That can run $5000 to $8000 per floor.

[@marcinmerrimack1726]

Your number 2 point is incorrect. Panel sizing calculation involves applying load-type-dependent demand factors. Simply summing the maximum values of all the loads results in unnecessarily large service requirements.

[@skyscraper37]

The water heater circuit I assume was 30 amp then to require he 10awg?

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

Joel 1 Yes.

[@cooldog60]

How would I upgrade a 60 amp service to 100 amp? Just replace the 60 amp breaker with a 100 amp breaker?

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

cooldog60 No. You need a licensed electrician to come to inspect your panel and tell you how to entirely remove that panel and replace it. Minimum building code won't allow something as small as 100amp for a main panel anymore. Minimum here is 150 but nobody uses less than 200. Please call a licensed electrician in your area to come to your house and tell you what you need.

[@markhammond4539]

@@JamesGlassJamesGlass not all towns require a licensed electrician and not all towns require a minimum of 150 amps.

[@palaco43]

Thank You Very Much for The Video !!!!

[@jamesstewart3002]

Another problem is that looks like a Bryant panel and their breakers are garbage. They don't always trip right away.

[@j.p.8276]

The panel appears to be exposed to the elements and is not waterproof. Another violation, no?

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

Yes but no. Haha. You have a good eye. But this was an "interior" that allowed a Type 1 panel until demo exposed it. It wad one of those hack job enclose and open porch deals. But, yes, otherwise it would have needed a 3R exterior panel. Totally.

[@wizard3z868]

@@JamesGlassJamesGlass wow im impressed you still reply to comments after 9 yrs most of mine i stop after 2 to 3 months 👍😉

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

@@wizard3z868 I try. I can't get to them all but I really enjoy figuring out how to best build things. I especially like the feedback I have gotten on how I've done things wrong, or how new products have evolved, for example the way I installed Hardie siding. I don't use that any more (I'm into metal siding) but the methods have changed. So I learned the updated ways. Plus I was just plain wrong in other cases. It's Saul Goodman! Haha.

[@wizard3z868]

@@JamesGlassJamesGlass lol better call saul you keep on breaking bad. i just laugh at how pple comment on like year old or older posts especially this one there is like what 2 code changes since this lol

[@hornetd]

Using the basement panel, when it is not grouped with the other 3 Service Disconnecting Means as one of the permitted total of six Service Disconnecting Means is a violation of the NEC and has been for a very long time. Anyone who finds themselves coping with a true electrical emergency has no way of knowing were that fourth disconnecting means is located. The Fire Service in the community is just one of the entities which has to be able to turn off all of all of the power to the building very quickly. Since you said that that was allowed I would think that you are saying it was done under a permit and was inspected. That inspector should be ashamed for having missed such a basic National Electric Code requirement.

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

I am wondering if someone snuck this around the inspector. I was in housing court a few years back when a slumlord had pulled a permit for one portion of the work, the work was done, inspected and closed out. Then a tennant complaint about additional work afterward led to code enforcement coming out and the tennant let them inside to find a shit ton more electrical and plumbing work was being done. Another case (different slumlord) involved no permits and the work was already completed. The owner claimed it was old work done long ago. The enforcement agent took photos of the date stamps in the cable and pvc. The owner brought his bullshit claim to court. Code enforcement shared the photos and photos they had on file from the past. It didn't go well for the slumlord. So, who knows? There were permits I remember seeing online. People find all kinds of ways to be squirrelly.

[@markhammond4539]

In New York the panel in side has to be within six feet of the meter's location.

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

It was amazing. I wondered about how they kept the subpanel unbonded and made so many other mistakes?

[@Tolsteph803]

GFI are sensitive and don't plug in vacuum surprised hair dryer doesn't trip as well these types cause major draw...aka "load" and local home depot sells the 20-30A GFI's the 15's aren't really used too much.

[@frankpaya690]

A GFI is not for overcurrent protection.

[@EvaSlash]

Which field of electrician is the best? Residential?

[@b-radfrommalibu]

Commercial/industrial...Roping houses is pretty basic, bending 3 point saddles and wiring 16kv transformer banks is slightly more difficult.

[@Theatrelove]

Erik Pettingill industrial electrical is by far the best field. Less labor , better pay , become more precise with working with higher voltages and running conduit.

[@NorthernChev]

EvaSlash Also take into account that residential electricians rarely deal with voltages over 240. Obvious exceptions of course. Whereas commercial you will be dealing with voltages upwards of 720, etc. Just keep that in mind if that kind of stuff matters to you. You can "walk away" from a 240 volt hit...

[@lectroken]

You are correct. But I can tell you this, that I have had very experienced commercial electrician work for my firm years ago and he was not accustomed to wiring a house at all. He had a hard time as we work with any system of wiring known to man ( and some invented by home owners doing their own work) and was lost trying to do the residential work. I agree that his ability to run conduit was amazing. He could run conduit through steel studs faster than I could run romex wiring through a wood stud wall (including the time I took to drill the holes first). But in wiring a multi-unit apartment where we were updating the wiring systems had him in a bind. There are mostly no drawings telling you what conduits to run or where. There is no overall wiring diagram in most cases. It has to be learned how to keep track of things and work out where and how each circuit is to be run. A lot more to wiring a house than most think; that is why so many inexperience people try it and fail at it. Ask any electrician what they fear to find in trying to solve a home wiring problem and it will be whether a home owner did the work. Using wrong wire sizes and running too many wires in a conduit is one of the most violated ones. But also making connections without a junction box and burying the boxes they do use under the drywall somewhere is a real bad one. Leads in boxes cut way too short to be able to correct wiring errors, way too many conductors in a box, not splicing wires properly, using all kinds of odd items as substitutes for correct condiut connectors, etc. I have seen almost everything including a job where the homeowner had made his own LB's out of tuna cans. Using wiring methods you learned in electric class in 7th grade to wire 120 volt fixtures where the former methods were for wiring a door bell. Using all kinds of things you can only dream about. I had a guy make his own knife switches to as a means of turning on and off his home made shop light. Making plug strip out of a series of outlets screwed to the side of his workbench with all the terminals exposed and live. He would have his grandson of about 8 yrs old in his basement working along side him in his workshop too.

[@vipleather]

Bonded or unbounded. Ground should go to 2 grounding rods to earth on the property.

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

Yes. I do three 5/8".

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

@JamesGlassProperties someone spliced together copper and alloy in an approved way. Thankfully no one died, but the home was a total loss.

[@outlet6989]

If you are a DIY'er, consider four factors before starting any project. 1. Time, 2. Effort, 3. Cost, and 4. Your experience. I don't understand the meaning of the word unbonded.

[@SKEC212]

The guy that wired my house must have wired this house too. You turn off the circuit for the light in the front door hallway, and the tv on the other side of the house by the back door turns off. Some circuits still have a slight tingle in them after the circuit is flipped off, also. I considered myself an electrician helper and I could have wired my house better. My whole condo needs to be rewired properly up to code. I can't wait to sell this POS to someone else.

[@OthmanAlikhan]

Thanks for the video =)

[@foxyroxstar]

Way Excellent and Fun! Thanks A Million! ..I'm Thinking..ef fooling around with ANYBODY's Old House but/and to Build a NEW Home Somewhere Way Off In The Sticks Hiding But From the Codes people and Public Information Concerning? and the gun room..the safe room..and the root cellar ETC! yeah Right!

[@ronmerkus5941]

I have seen people use lamp cord to wire there house, it's not funny, but when you see it you shake your head. and laugh to your self as you show your boss lol lol

[@superwiseman452]

It's actually okay from a heating perspective to have a number of wires running through a single knockout, as long as the overlap is minimal. The heating is completely dissipated. The real problem is that none of the circuits are clamped to the panel knock-out, so they could be pulled out causing major issues.

[@davidmoulton5422]

There are only two great trades plumber and electrician everybody needs them and the pay is great

[@frankymilad5071]

David Moulton refrigeration #1

[@ciarancasey5037]

transmission lineman

[@ArturoGarzaID]

David Moulton Welding, HVAC, carpentry, painting, etc.

[@eddygilbert9906]

amen brother. trouble man right now but i loved transmission.

[@jopflah416]

David Moulton And the plumbing and electrical devices and equipment just float in space? No buildings, no houses, etc. People camping don't need either!

[@stephenhickman9502]

do electrons care what color the wire is?

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

Stephen Hickman Is this a philosophical question? 😃

[@bruceLEEtheOne]

I talked to some dirt bag who is always fun to talk to and he told me he wires all his houses with the wrong colored wires just so the home owner, for the most part, is forced to call him back if he wants anymore electric. Haha extremely fucked up but I laughed.

[@MIW_Renegade]

Stephen Hickman no

[@steveoshortt4791]

Stephen Hickman absolutely not your being sarcastic I can tell. At the breaker for 220 you can switch the wires and nothing will happen.

[@kenmohler4081]

No, but the person working on the wire would like to know if the wire is, hot, neutral, or ground. The electrons don’t know or care. They just want to go home.

[@oplex7687]

Why not bond the ground an neutral at first means of disconnect then distribute that power

[@dogwalker666]

its scary seeing the distribution board outside, the box is not even IP65 such an amateur job. how it was not full of water i do not know. it needs moving inside..

[@joerostkowski7313]

Awesome except for the green wire,electricity knows no color. Guage size matters not color.

[@MrCinimod93]

hear in canada we use 12awg wire and 20 amp breaker on water heaters

[@lilkid8486]

You can here in America as well as long as it's a 20 amp circuit. I'm guessing this was a larger water heater on a 30 amp breaker.

[@MrCinimod93]

wire up electric water heaters on 20 amp 2 pole all the time unless its a commercial unit for a school or restaurant

[@MrCinimod93]

4200w divided by 240v is 17.5 amps

[@MrCinimod93]

you'd need a awful big family to need bigger than 4200w

[@bamaslamma1003]

Home Made Random Most gas water heaters don't need any electricity, just a gas line and a chimney.

[@jeffreyspence7717]

Doesn't look like a sub panel to me.

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

Yes, I totally get the confusion. Back a generation ago this would have been the "main", but with the legal requirement that the meter have a main disconnect it has changed things. The main panel is at the meter with the main disconnect. That's the only bonded panel in the system. That panel has 3 wire service entrance cable. The panel in the house then becomes a subpanel fed from the main outside. That panel, and any other panels fed from it all have 4 wire SE cable because they are all unbonded panels, meaning the ground and grounded return (so called nuetral) are separate.

[@ourjourneytohope]

Thanks. Sometimes we learn by “non-examples”.

[@bocasteve]

Have to watch a few times. I fell asleep

[@jeffreyjsmith1980]

Also, too many neutral and grounds in each buss bar spot. One lug - one wire.

[@texasjourneyman207]

lol lol I got ya sorry! been a electrician for 15 yrs wouldn't b the first time I've seen it lol

[@JamesGlassJamesGlass]

+Derek Rodano Not at all. I see it all the time.