Character Analysis: Janeway - Courageous Hero or Neurotic Survivor?

[@oddish4352]

I have to wonder if ANY captain, regardless of his or her skill and potential, would be ready for what happened to Voyager...

[@sid2112]

Jellies would've broken the Kazon and had the crew back by lunch. Also, he would've had a four shift rotation dammit!

[@oddish4352]

@@sid2112 Probably had the Maquis in chains as well, right?

[@sid2112]

@@oddish4352 well recall that Jell-O isn't exactly a Cardy lover. He might have something of a soft spot for them. Know what I mean? Like Maxwell on the Phoenix.

[@christophervanoster]

Sisko would’ve just plowed through every hostile faction he met, ‘regulations be DAMNED!’

[@oddish4352]

@@sid2112 Good point. Still, Janeway did pretty well with them, especially if you compare her to other captains... Picard sent a deep cover operative into the Maquis... she promptly turned traitor and joined them for real. And look at the trouble Sisko had with dealing with one problem Maquis member. Janeway had 30+ of them eating out of her hand in a year.

[@ragnarokgalaxy9510]

"The darker aspects of our heroes have something to teach us too" Well said.

[@hunterpdx7061]

Janeway is the Star Trek captain I tend to be the most conflicted about, but, at the same time, also appreciate as the most fallible and interesting. At one point early in the series she talks with Tuvok about wishing they had a ship's counselor on board, but the nature of their mission into the Badlands did not require one. That probably would have helped. Out of all of the Star Trek captains I think she had one of the hardest situations to navigate. It's a shame that, too often, the series seemed to take poor advantage of it's own story elements and situation. Voyager could have been a great series with unique and compelling moments and character drama. Instead we're left with a very hit-and-miss affair and a Captain who definitely appears compromised at times by the enormity of her plight. Don't get me wrong, I like Voyager overall. I just think it had a great many missed opportunities.

[@oddish4352]

The closest thing they had to a counselor was Neelix.

[@amandaforrester7636]

@@oddish4352 no wonder everyone on that ship was a mess.

[@oddish4352]

@@amandaforrester7636 Too bad Cavit didn't survive. They could have made Chakotay ship's counselor.

[@Mysticmegster1]

Janeway in The Year of Hell episodes was a real inspiration. She suffered greatly but kept it together despite everything

[@JROD082384]

The Tuvix situation boils down to the fact that the needs of the overall crew, not to mention the rights of Tuvok and Neelix as individual beings outweighed the needs and rights of the one newly created being.

[@marvelboy74]

This exactly. Tuvok and Neelix had no say in being merged. I know some people would say two wrongs don't make a right, but Tuvok and Neelix both had their rights to life violated by a transporter accident.

[@Gevaudan1471]

Tuvix was capable of all the tasks Neelix and Tuvok were assigned. Janeway just wanted her friend back.

[@BeastLingo42]

Tuvok and Neelix also had families they needed to get back to, on opposite sides of the galaxy.

[@LanMandragon1720]

Anything that brings back the abomination that is Neelix. Is objectively evil and deeply immoral...

[@Sly88Frye]

It's quite possible after watching this that Janeway might just have been the most human Captain in all of Star Trek. She was much more fallible.

[@DioBrandoWRYYYYYY]

I don't like Janeway, but I also think that Voyager was a show with a fantastic premise that kept self-sabotaging itself because the people in charge had no idea what they had.

[@thesisko3715]

It could’ve been as good as DS9 if Berman wasn’t so conservative and rigid in holding to Gene’s “vision.”

[@DioBrandoWRYYYYYY]

@@thesisko3715 Well it's easy to blame everything on Berman but I think it's also the problem that the premise in of itself wasn't suited for the old type of episodic TV that still ruled the airwaves back then. It's not just Berman but also the networks that wanted something like Baywatch where they could churn out as many episodes as they could as a reliable slot filler rather than make Voyager a grim 12 episode miniseries where a bunch of smug space liberals get put through the meatgrinder and get reminded that the wild is brutal and unforgiving.

[@clwho4652]

Destroying the Array was the right idea. The Kazon would have beaten Voyager off and taken control of the array, gotten ahold of of it's technology. The Kazon would have become a threat to the whole galaxy with that technology. She protected the Federation by destroying the Array.

[@MackerelCat]

What a thoughtful video. Thanks.

[@2bituser569]

Janeway will later be known in the Delta quadrant as, “The Destroyer of Worlds” for her Borg collaboration.

[@JustgamingFl890]

I think another part we are missing out on is what happened before Voyager got to the alpha in the episode end game. If Admiral Janeway didnt go back and help the crew get home faster and would have sted the course, all of those encounters she would have had, people saved or lost. When Admiral jumped them home all of those lives changed as well. What Janeway would have done wasn't done anymore. I feel that those stories need to be explored more. But thats just my thoughts

[@nobleactual7616]

Im glad I'm not the only person who has coined the term insaneway

[@BigHeadClan]

In scorpion there is a real argument to be had that species 8472 was hostile to all species of the delta quadrant (declaration of war and attacking voyager) and the power vaccum left by the defeat of the borg would cause a collapse of stability in large swaths of the delta quadrant leading to far more deaths. The borg while the enemy are also capable of redeption and being freed from the Borg, meaning every drone is an abused individual stripped of free will and millions had died already. Furthermore the borg were getting decimated, by giving them a way to fight back it meant that they would have a longer more drawn out fight against species 8472. She may not have a strong leg to stand on with Tuvix but when you consider her larger actions there is usually sound logic.

[@timomarkson]

The episode hope and fear proves my point about the Borg that the writers did not do them correctly when they invaded the alpha quadrant sending only one cube to take over the Federation Planes, that they don’t use these tactics they actually send hundreds of cubes to do tasks like this but if the borg sent onto to cubes they will be no Federation

[@Claudanne2]

I need to rewatch Voyager. It's been so long and I've seen so many videos bashing the show that I've developed negative feelings towards it; even though I remember enjoying it while I was watching it years ago. Time to go through it again with fresh eyes.

[@cropathfinder]

Controversial opinion, Janeway is the most flawed, most human and imho the best of the OG captains we got in star trek thus. Kirk is well kirk, picard talks too much and has a huge ego, Sisko while highly inteligent is too forceful and quick to anger, archer is... well... archer.

[@Hazardteam]

A question. *Why* i never saw Voyager to use quantum torpedos, and why i saw they used tricobalt device only once?

[@LucianLacroix]

Exceptional video.

[@majornikku]

Lore Reloaded Rocks.

[@christenorio9555]

If I wrote an jjverse of Uss Voyager, Janeway & tuvok just set up Uss Voyager to be an prison reeducation ship with her admiral friend is a member of section 31 with Tom paris is an section 31 agent in training like Malcolm reed!

[@FatherPrax]

I've always wondered how other Starfleet Captains would have handled the situation on Voyager. I truly think Janeway shouldn't have been Captain, but First officer promoted midway thru season 1 to Captain due to the death of the real Captain. Her inexperience is shown at times due to this being her first command, but the other thing she never gets is the kind of back and forth with the Admirals we see on TNG or DS9 when Starfleet gives an order that the Captain disagrees with. This would have given her an example to either follow or repudiate, depending on how that Captain handled the first season. Someone like Jellico, a hardass who appears to be a villain yet is objectively doing the right thing, would have been the perfect initial Captain. This would also create an interesting situation when the Equinox episodes starts, because he realizes "I outrank her, I can order her to give me her ship." and it's no longer a meeting of people with equal rank, just equal functional ranks.

[@quoniam426]

Janeway siding with the Borg might seem a folly but she privilegded the threat she knew about over the unknown one. Plus 8472 clearly stated to Kes that they were willing to destroy EVERYONE in their path. Staying out of it wouldn't have hold long since the Borg were on the verge of being defeated and there is no saying that the 8472 would have stopped there anyway. With no more information, Janeway couldn't take a more accurate decision that siding with the familiar against the unfamiliar because the doctor found the solution. Of course, had the 8472 not threatened anyonen Janeway could have considered to make a deal with the aliens to get rid of the Borg once and for all. That being said, Janeway helped the Borg to be able to destroy 8472, not be able to assimilate them which is an entirely different matter. Imagine the consequences... The finale episode was kinda stupid... all that mission to go back through time to save just a few crewmembers and a friend? Why not go back in time to prevent Voyager of being pulled to the Delta Quadrant altogether? Damn, that ould have been sacrificing Tuvok, Chacotay and B'elanna and the Ocampa... I think that finale is the Voyager episode I like the least, at least for a series finale, it really got off the rails. Oh and Starfleet promoted her to the rank of admiral? I'm sorry for those who think Starfleet did that to put her away from pressure or save people from her recklessness but being an admiral with ininitely more power and nuisance potential isn't really sane at all. Had Starfleet being straight on record, they would have fired her, imprisoned her or demoted her to a science station.

[@AlucardNoir]

Personal head cannon is that she personally turned the Temporal Cold War hot. You can guess which side of the argument I fall on.

[@bobingabout]

11:29 I've never really noticed before... Look at Tuvok as the transport cycle completes. Deep inhale... then look down at his knees. Remember, he's a Vulcan, It clearly impacted him, to have visible signs. That's a traumatised Vulcan right there.

[@diabeticalien3584]

I find the Borg vs. Undine debate to be fascinating. But while I agree with every point you make, I offer this counter: put yourself in Janeway's position. Hell, put yourself in every Alpha/Beta-Quadrant member of the crew. They don't know who this Undine is. They're experiences with them have been simply observing them ripping apart Borg Ships. And they're smack in the middle of Borg Space. They know how dangerous the Borg is. They need to gain as much security from the Borg as possible. I think its an incredibly difficult decision to make. One that can only be challenged in hind sight. But in that moment Janeway needed to make a choice and she only knew that if she opposed the Borg, she would lose everything.

[@mightymulatto3000]

One has to wonder. Was it the crew that got split into nothing that did a great deal of the episodes or the flesh and blood crew?

[@peterkinsey9817]

like be dammed vovager and ds9 were like family you got attached to the characters i loved them loved the shows

[@anhedonianepiphany5588]

[21:41] *regardless _OR_ irrespective ("irregardless" is a conflation of these two) Although, _some_ dictionaries count this as an actual word now due to massive misuse. No offence intended.

[@leonwood5760]

Although a Star Trek fan I could never come to like her character. I don't think she could handle pressure well and was narcissistic and neurotic. During the Voyager show the characters I found most entertaining was the holographic doctor, Kes, Neelix and 7 of 9 & B'lana. Chakotey, Tuvok were ok.

[@peterhaag86]

I think Janeway's biggest faults stem from the writers themselves. Overall Janeway is presented as a highly scientific and thoughtful mind. Constantly coming up with ideas for ship performance or scanning technique or whatever tech tech of the episode in order to have someone else run through her theories and make sure the numbers work. That's about the only consistent thing they did with her character. Other than that, multiple times, multiple situations she's constantly either "damn the consequences", or "damn the crew" depending on the writer of the week. I think Kate Mulgrew is a fantastic actor put into a situation with some inconsistent writers. However, all that taken into account. There are times when the fallibility of her as a human being shine through in excellent character arcs. In Year of Hell for instance you get to see the total swing of her character's persona where she goes from "I have to keep this family together", to "I have to break this all up in order to save some of them". It is (in my opinion) the best writing and best episodes of Voyager that exist. Especially for her as a captain. I'm quite curious to see how they handle Prodigy and her character development through the gap years.

[@elbarto6668]

Nice

[@nightlytale]

Ppl complaining about ads smh Just skip ahead to avoid rAiD sHaDoW lEgEnDs cancer

[@MikinessAnalog]

I'm sure someone has brought this up before, but if Tuvok showed any emotion, I wonder if he would have felt jealousy over Chakotay being made first officer over him? Also, as for the CBS takedown, I thought people in your nation had the right to critique & comment on portions of their programming (fair use).

[@trekjudas]

I love Janeway because unlike a certain captain we have now Janeway was fallible. She made mistakes, she wasn't perfect. She wasn't the bestest person evah! And I like that!

[@robertagu5533]

Thats why her character was good

[@monsterx3055]

@@robertagu5533 her character flaws were far too great for me seeing her in the initial roll of captain

[@stankovicmatija6275]

Also, her character didn't cry every freakin' episode... At least not on screen

[@R0ssMM]

Michael Burnham regularly makes mistakes; it's how we're introduced to her, in fact, and she continues it in series 3. Picard is the most faultless of the main characters in that regard.

[@trekjudas]

@@R0ssMM She's a lot like Rey. They're just trying way too hard to make them the greatest character ever. They need just chill with her a little. maybe do one episode where she's not in it.

[@trekjudas]

Janeway once executed a man and it was left up to the audience to decide if what she did was right or wrong. I think it's awesome that they let us make up our own minds and didn't force a point of view on us.

[@Gevaudan1471]

We need more of that in media.

[@oddish4352]

True. And as a regular person on the Trek MB, I can tell you lots of people revile her as a murderer.

[@literatiglee]

@@oddish4352 That's too bad (about Tuvix). I remember someone asking how a character went "bad" on BSG. Someone replied to the question saying, "the character didn't go bad, the point of the story was how good collided with good.

[@spiralinglight]

Pepperidge farm remembers

[@razgriz501]

If I recall, Kate Mulgrew herself described Janeway as broken and weighed down by her guilt

[@pinzig]

I feel like her performance as an actress was absolutely amazing, regardless of how wayward the character became.

[@razgriz501]

@@pinzig Agreed. Mulgrew always delivered a stellar performance

[@SSingh-nr8qz]

This is a very accurate way to describe Janeway. The problem was in the early seasons of the show, it didn't come across well. It wasn't until we got some back story that everything made sense. I loved how her back stories fllled in the blanks and how she sees herself around people she commands and works with. 7 of 9's introduction really allowed Janeway's character to capitalize story. Remember Janeway always regretted not having kids. By the end, I would say her strongest character evolution was her becoming the mother figure of this entire crew. You got that protective mamma bear vibe from Janeway that goes beyond crew and captain. For me I saw her character go from -> Annoying and wound up way too tight -> broken on the inside but doing her best -> Ultimate Matriarch that she would do anything for. That is character development and how to save a character. I'm saying this as a person who HATED Janeway at the beginning of the series, then the writers listened t the fans, molded the characters, and by the end I love Janeway.

[@thegloriousryius]

I think Kate Mulgrew definitely the best person they could have found to play her.

[@madmojo-im6jz]

Most great leaders in history are driven by a need to compensate for something

[@wastedxlll1192]

Janeway, sisko and archer are my favourite captains because they aren’t perfect hell it could be argued that all of them committed war crimes at some point but that’s what makes them great characters their flaws

[@SSingh-nr8qz]

That is what command is. It's navigating and doing your best for your people. This can lead to uncharted situations and you are trying to do your best. You will make mistakes and even REALLY bad ones. It's easy for people to argue things in hindsight, but the question really boils down to intent and reasoning with the information you have at hand.

[@spartacusthebringerofrain3007]

Sisko was a military commander that not only suited the post he was in but was a talent heavily used during the war. Picard existed on diplomacy during peace during the show and was not suited for TOS and DS9. The movie Picard was but not the TV version. Survival isn't a war crime when a genocidal enemy is trying to destroy and enslave you.

[@Bitchslapper316]

Picard was the best written Captain imo. He had to endure setbacks, defeats and real loss quite frequently. Janeway is like Burnham in that she never really had to answer for her mistakes or deal with the consequences of her actions. Sisko was similar but to a lesser extent. Tl:dr Janeway, Sisko and Burnham all have plot armor. Picard not so much.

[@koschei4716]

@@Bitchslapper316 i think the fact that janeway didnt have to answer for her mistakes makes her very interesting because multiple times we can see that it weighs on her. like, imagine if there were no consequences for anything you did and so you constantly have to check yourself because you hold so much power? add that in on top of trauma and depression and it doesn't go well.

[@Bitchslapper316]

@@koschei4716 Yeah that much is true. I think It also came down to her not listening to subordinates as well. I can recall multiple times where Picard has his decisions influenced by Riker or Data. Some goes for Sisko with Kira and Dax. When it came to Janeway it was always her way, she even had Chokotay relieved of duty at least twice for disagreeing with her.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

i think your PTSD theory makes a lot of sense and she's hardly the only Starfleet captain to carry that burden Picard certainly suffered truma from his Assimilation by the borg, and probably further Truma from Gul Madred's torture (and yet was not medically discharged) Sisko and Archer would both make choices that probably cost them sleep. one might theorize that it is impossible to be a captain in starfleet without being somehow broken.

[@eviebr83]

There's a good argument in there. Likely, if you are the type of leader that make these life and death decisions about people's lives without it breaking you(overly logical and without compassion), you wouldn't be a good captain in the first place.

[@windhelmguard5295]

sisko also had to watch helplessly as the federation fleet, along with his family, got wiped out by the borg.

[@DJRonnieG]

It's a FAAAAKE!

[@robertagu5533]

If one is put into such capacity an makes it long enough... If their of any importance or talent an last long enough in the role its probably, in time, impossible to make it as a Captain or higher without having to make difficult choices. An live with them. A lot of training episodes an parts of it hinted as much

[@Bitchslapper316]

The difference is that with Picard and Sisko there were several in depth episodes examining their past trauma. I wish Voyager would have done something like that.

[@MartinGarcia-ok5hb]

I've always like Voyager. I do believe that Janeway definitely made questionable choices and could be overly emotional but I always respected the fact that she loved her crew and was willing to do almost anything to keep them safe and get them home.

[@kobayashibrynhild9622]

Yeah, Voyager was a good series, despite its flaws.

[@MartinGarcia-ok5hb]

@@kobayashibrynhild9622 never understood the hate for it or Enterprise. I really enjoyed both series

[@kobayashibrynhild9622]

@@MartinGarcia-ok5hb yeah, I didn't either.

[@spiritofthewolf1880]

@@MartinGarcia-ok5hb Same! Voyager was my first Star Trek and it will always hold a special place in my heart.

[@pimpinaintdeadho]

@@MartinGarcia-ok5hb I agree although I didn't watch Enterprise when it was on the air like all the others. I watched it long after all the others on Prime and really enjoyed the show.

[@supamat4]

did you just causally slip in some Janeway-Boothby fan fiction, lol

[@LoreReloaded]

Dude that’s from the shows.. don’t believe for a second home boi brought roses EVERY MORNING and not hitting that

[@emizerri]

@@LoreReloaded lmao so yes

[@pimpinaintdeadho]

@@LoreReloaded LMFAO

[@Zahgurym]

total spit-take when he said that bit. lmao

[@BlueBoxRevan]

@@LoreReloaded *sips earl grey*

[@friendofjesus1680]

When Ransom asked Janeway if she had ever broken the prime directive and she responded, "bent, but not broken" my response: AHHAAHAHAHAHA

[@NineWorldsFromDrew]

I’ve just made a comment above, to argue that “bent, but not broken” is precisely the way to describe it. The Federation has never explicitly described the Prime Directive as brittle, or inflexible.

[@NitpickingNerd]

he's lucky he didn't ask her about the temporal prime directive

[@NineWorldsFromDrew]

@@NitpickingNerd Again, duress.... well.... mostly!

[@hellacoorinna9995]

The Novel of "Equinox" does actually go into Janeway hating Captain Ransom _because_ he reminds her of herself.

[@DJRonnieG]

@@hellacoorinna9995 the whole "how dare you all, you're all demoted" conclusion for the remaining crew was some moral high-horse bullshittery. I would love to see how Janeway would've handled things if she were in Ransom's shoes.

[@dawnsrayz]

I think the fact that Q wanted her to be the mother of his child speaks for how awesome she is. 😙

[@jeremiahgalindo6454]

@@HarleyQuinn-ol8ex chill out bro it's a TV show

[@oddish4352]

And the fact that she blew him off like he was a random amorous drunk in a bar...

[@SamBryans128]

If they made Picard with Janeway instead, season 2 would've been over in 3 episodes tops.

[@kademcarthur5362]

I think Janeway is definitely a flawed character in my eyes. She definitely had every reason to just go straight home without stopping at any planet and shorten their journey through the Delta Quadrant, but instead, just like every other Starfleet Captain before her, she continued to explore strange new worlds, seeked out new life and new civilizations and boldly went where no one has gone before.

[@ZoeyZoco]

Well Lore did explains this in the video! There was no guarantee the crew and the ship would survive HOURS to figure out how to use the array to send them home! So she made the “logical” and “starfleet” decision to destroy it instead!

[@ZoeyZoco]

She’s still my *favorite* *captain!* Mulgrew made a mesmerizing performance throughout the series! She really embodies the character and for some people even makes you love to hate her! ❤️

[@WiglyWorm]

OMG yes. I'm introducing trek to my partner and we're watching around DS:9 (cuz it's the best), and while we absolutely HATE some of the decisions she makes, she's a fantastic character. Sisko will forever be my favorite for his amazing portrayals of fatherhood, no one can out Janeway Janeway when it comes to sheer grit and determination. And, yeah, she was *clearly* tortured by her decision to destroy the array. For all her faults, it's clear she swore she would get her crew home by any means necessary after that incident.

[@ZoeyZoco]

@@WiglyWorm oh I agree!! Even though Voyager & Janeway is my favorite... there’s no denying DS9 is THE BEST trek series! Sisko was such a bada$$! The writing was almost perfection! Consistent and captivating story too throughout the series!

[@WiglyWorm]

@@ZoeyZoco And let's be real. Picard wouldn't have lasted 20 minutes in the Delta Quadrant.

[@BlueBoxRevan]

I can definitely respect that.

[@oddish4352]

@@WiglyWorm Don't be so pessimistic. He'd have lasted at least 21 minutes...

[@deaks25]

I think the Season 5 opener "Night" is an underrated episode, especially when it comes to Janeway's character. She spends a good chunk of the episode wrestling her guilt at destroying the Caretaker array and stranding the crew, in order to do the morally right thing and when faced with a similar situation is prepared to essentially forefite her life to do the right thing and help her crew, backing up a lot of what LR talks about. It's a sorely missed opportunity because it could have been the start of an arc for Janeway coming to terms with the past, that she did the right thing, her crew support that kind of action and basically that she is being a (generally) good leader.

[@kaitlyn__L]

I would’ve so loved for more episodes to be like that. Especially how they’re getting short with each other and trying to find stuff to occupy their time. They must be going through a lot of that in between event episodes.

[@Qaianna]

Another thing about Admiral Janeway in the finale ... she had spent sixteen more years out there. Twenty-three years out there for a rookie captain, no matter how good they are ... Starfleet Medical may have dropped the ball on making sure she'd come out of that OK. Don't forget that back in Kirk's era the legendary missions were FIVE years. Quadrupling that tour of duty is not in anyone's best interest.

[@NimhLabs]

I'll need to remember that the concept of fear itself is scared of Janeway. Damn, that Captain is a baddass!

[@waynebrewer1901]

At the end of the day, she got shit done. In some situations, that's what matters.

[@DevilPogoStick]

Reminds me of Captain Pike in the pilot episode of Star Trek where he tells Boyce the doctor of his guilt of losing men in an ambush he felt he could've prevented and just how tired he was being responsible of the lives on the ship that it made him consider resigning from Starfleet. ...Yeah, Janeway probably felt several times as worse by the time she's done.

[@pedroarjona6996]

A surprisingly in depth analysis of a character that until now find of very little interest. I am amazed

[@robertagu5533]

The start if the video.. She WAS right. Working together is what saw them all way home. An the Maquis roots WAS Starfleet anyways. Since they left an/or resigned SF. She became the legend from all she went through in the series. Most everything she did was for her crews own good an to proven parties she'd act regularly to aid friends too. An on 8472. There was ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to know what their war against the Borg woulda done. THIS was addressed in STO. When 8472 RESURFACED.... WAY worse almost WORSE and decidedly conquerer and DESTROYER oriented. Thay woulda made Janeways video accuser nastalgic for the Borg.. He called kettle black unable to see past his own fantasies.

[@ThatBlasianStormtrooper]

Tuvix's death isn't even a death. Why is his life more important than the two he supplanted? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or one. Also if it were me in that mix you bet your Scottie Pippin butt I want you to bring me back. What of my rights? What about my family? That one man is irrelevant compared to the greater number.

[@LoreReloaded]

Unfortunately that stupidly, ridiculous idiom works against your argument. What is best for the crew.. The needs of the many.. that outweigh the few.. is for tuvix to stay the way he is. Not only would tuvix require less space, require less food, require less energy - but according to JANEWAY he did the job of both neelix and tuvok better. So if we go with the needs of the many, out weighing the needs of the few.. we keep tuvix the way he is. We also should probably harvest the organs of any species we come upon that wont survive..

[@sid2112]

@@LoreReloaded All true, but a genetic freak accident of a teleporter needs to be fixed or killed before the writers make us want him gone.

[@LoreReloaded]

Hah fair.. sorry if that came off angry. I just don’t like that idiom.. it can be used for some horrible stuff. That said, you can make the argument that Tuvix didn’t have the right to live at the expense of Neelix and tuvok.. I’ve discussed that in the other video

[@ThatBlasianStormtrooper]

@@LoreReloaded man I am not upset. I'm biased. If I were in that situation that's what my feelings are. I would think it would be unfair for me to make someone suffer what I myself wouldn't want to. I don't think you were rude in anyway. I've watched your videos ik how you are and you're alright by my standards. Lol

[@naomikenzia-davis4148]

I agree with you and am surprised at how many people seem to think it was wrong. It's a bodily autonomy issue akin to abortion, but those whose bodies are being used are unable to give or refuse consent. As the only one aboard with any right to speak on their behalf, she chose to respect their autonomy. It was the right choice imo, though I could understand if she had chosen otherwise, I wouldn't have agreed with it.

[@fadingjedi]

It's worth noting that Janeway was the captain that starfleet tasked with catching the maquis. Shes not a diplomate although she's has starfleet diplomatic training. And she not the captain of flagship of the fleet. She's a loyal soldier doing the job she was given. And then suddenly she's thrown into situation that she wasn't prepared for. She ain't the kind of captain that starfleet would have chosen to explore to the gama quadrant and back. In some ways she has a lot in common with Sisko. Neither captain is the best of the best. But both respond in the best way they know how to extraordinary circumstances that no one foresaw when assignments were handed out.

[@LoreReloaded]

She wasn't a solider, she was a science officer - I don't think she really had the soldier thing down :P

[@fadingjedi]

@@LoreReloaded she was soldier in the sense that she took orders and gave them. Starfleet said be a scientist so she was a scientist. They said hunt the maquis so she did that. If not for her adventures in the delta (I cited the wrong one in my previous) quadrant she would have been unremarkable. Just typical captain following orders.

[@tamaradominy977]

To be fair, no one would have been prepared for that situation of being so far from home, man or woman.

[@trekjudas]

GASP!!!! DID JANEWAY CREATE THE DISCOVERY UNIVERSE???? She definitely created the dark future Picard is living in!!

[@studinthemaking]

That for sure.

[@cropathfinder]

no thats Psycho Janeway

[@oddish4352]

Janeway is the Chuck Norris of Star Trek. Creating alternate universes is no big deal for her.

[@lonnyyoung4285]

I always thought that First Contact did and Enterprise was the first show to take place in that timeline.

[@trekjudas]

@@lonnyyoung4285 It did! That event created at least three different universes!

[@gmajor1273]

Janeway was a heroine and a great Captain.

[@SSingh-nr8qz]

I HATED Janeway when I first saw the series. She was a bit of a Mary Sue. Later I found out her back story, and what drives her for "perfect" outcomes. She is deeply haunted and flawed but it was in that moment of being an actual human being and not just an ideal the writers were trying to push on the audience, that I loved Janeway. I would say her need to mentor to be better, and protective mother figure, was incredibly awesome and relatable. When 7 of 9 entered the story, and that relationship was awesome. It's funny, and I'm not sure if anyone has picked up on it, but the Borg Queen picked up on it. Janeway is very much like Borg Queen. She cares fiercely for her "collective". The difference is Janeway will take things personally and take things to the limit even into self destructive levels to do anything her "family" needs.

[@derkatzenstreu7099]

I never really thought about that parallelism between Janeway and the borg queen. But I think you could argue that the borg queen did as well take things personally when it comes to janeway. Everytime Janeway is presented to her, she enters a state of anger towards her, which makes her in Unimatrix zero almost destroy the collective just to undo what Janeway has done.

[@SSingh-nr8qz]

@@derkatzenstreu7099 This is not uncommon in the real world. Two powerful Queens opposing each other will act like this. I know people will call me sexist for saying this but it is a form of toxic female behaviour. It happens in dating and the workplace. There is a difference with men and women though. Men will attack and fight more on the physical end, while women will try to destroy you on a personal and relationship level. In the interactions between Janeway and The Borg Queen, that's what made the scenes feels so damn good and realistic. It's why female character who are written as females (rather than male or gender neutral in a female body) are so awesome. Every man knows and feels in their DNA, while men can be very destructive, when a woman loses it or hellbent on doing harm, a woman will scorch the entire Earth searching for your soul and everything you love to be turned to ashes. When done right. this kind of writing is amazing.

[@johnnafunkhouser5999]

This is a seriously great channel. In my top ten.

[@harrisonlawson9913]

Amen 🙏

[@marlls1989]

Again, regarding Tuvix, the only bad thing about disassembling them was getting Neelix back. If they could get only Tuvok back, it would be perfect

[@honkhonk5150]

The phage was fucking dark man. Member that episode when that alien stole that star fleet dudes face, and then sewed it onto his face? Oblivion, Tuvix too.. Tell me again how the original is better than Voyager..lol

[@MrBlazinerday]

Mulgrew was one of the best captains and should show up in Picard. In every series we have seen the captain struggle with the weight of command and making life or death decisions. Janeway was portrayed in a very human and believable way.

[@Lee883]

Boothby and Janeway? I always thought of him as a surrogate grandfather figure and you just made that feel reaaaaalllllllll dirty.

[@archades115]

I never considered that Janeway was fast-tracked into command. Leaving her very much unprepared for the situation in which she and Voyager found herself. That it did affect her on such a deep level. Voyager was perhaps the least of the original five series. But it was still great.

[@diamondsky3787]

the original five are what? TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT?

[@archades115]

@@diamondsky3787 Yes. STD and STP are trash. I haven't gotten around to watching Below Deck, so I cannot attest to the quality of that show.

[@diamondsky3787]

@@archades115 ye, I haven't watched STP nor Bellow Decks, but I have seen Discovery, it's not that it's bad, it's just feels that isn't trek but more like Star Wars.

[@kaitlyn__L]

Lower Decks feels very TNG-ish. If you can dig the comedy 25 minute format you’ll probably like it. Early Voyager said Janeway had another command prior to Voyager, but later Voyager said that Voyager was her first command. So that’s a bit of a retcon/mistake, and you can basically choose whether she was experienced or green.

[@davidgiles4681]

I see Command as both a hero and Neurotic Survivor: Hero - in that a Commander (of a unit) must be - Counselor, Leader, Appeaser (to internal problems), problem solver, Mommy or Daddy to subordinate Officers (mentoring the Jr. Officers as an example of proper and moral Command), etc... A commander is a hero to the crew. He/she is the center of ultimate authority. That authority is what keeps the unit cohesive. A very good Commander will have their crew going to hell and back (just on the Commander's word). Neurotic Survivor - Janeway is put in a position very few Captains are. She is shoved 75k light yrs (into another quadrant) and left to go home (as best she can). She must survive. If she survives, the crew survives. Add to this the fact that you have Marquis (space terrorists = former SF) part of the crew, and you have an internal problem. She must be a survivor. She must survive and lead her crew to home. That can develop into a neurotic event (that would shape future decisions. People are counting upon Janeway to get them home. That would make anyone neurotic. This means "bending the rules" - "just a bit" to survive.

[@matthewwhite4564]

"My crew is my family, Kirk. Is there anything you would not do for your family?" Janeway is a flawed character, she makes mistakes, but always in the name of protecting her family. and why shouldn't she? Any good leader would prioritize their crew, their family's wellbeing, over anything or anyone else. and i think that is her most admirable trait, her care for her crew. Does this make her perfect? no. Were her decisions with regard to the Equinox, or the Hirogen questionable? yes. Does this make her a bad person? no. it makes her human. nobody is perfect. Maybe Janeway's biggest flaw is that she cares to much...but i'd rather have a captain that cares too much about my safety, than one that doesn't care about my safety at all.

[@dikon0172]

Admiral Janeway shows the price of true heroism. Speak to old high decorated soldiers, Policepeople or firefighter, they all will know, there Is no such thing as a all golden hero/heroine like in Hollywood and cancel Culture nowadays required. That Is the difference between new and old Star Trek.

[@phantom6knight]

I grew up watching Voyager and Deep Space Nine, and thus Janeway and Sisko are the embodiment of what it meant to be Starfleet officers. Only recently, I watched Enterprise, and now TNG for the first time (the full series), am I able to get a better scope of the "Prime Directive." I believe we all act based on the sum of our experiences. A older, battle-worn Janeway that steps through time, does so with the full weight of having lived through all those years and experiences, that created the reason why she made that choice. In hindsight (as as an audience) we can see the full scope of these actions in ways the character cannot; her actions had value, because they preserved the lives of those closest to her, and she had an obligation to get them home. I'm voting "Courageous Hero" on this!

[@Dancestar1981]

Definitely courageous hero

[@bunnysvlogs8392]

I don’t care what anybody says, Janeway is the best.

[@donovanbradford8231]

A ver good list my friend, now my counter. Janeway is a hero. To start she could have left the Masque by themselves in the delta quadrant right off the start instead said if you come with us you have a better chance of getting home then by yourselves. The destruction of Tuvix, a being that was created by an act that neither Tuvok or Nelix wanted. Janeway destroyed one life form to bring back the original two. Giving to tech to the Herogin to try and keep them from hurting themselves only to discover that same race perverted what she gave them and had to help return the Herogin back to what they were so the new life of Holo characters could live. Helping bring Seven of Nine and the Borg children with them and helping return them to their lost humanity. Now let's get to the grand daddy of them all helping the Borg against Species 8472. At the time Janeway thought it was the right thing, she hopped helping the Borg would save people from an even worse threat. I compare it to DBZ we stopped Cell only to be left with Frieza and his vast army. It was a calculated risk one that she felt was right only to realize it was wrong. But Janeway by the series end was able to rectify that mistake and make a decision that any captain in the series would have made, Picard, Kirk, Archer, even Sisko would have which was to destroy the Borg. Now you bring up changing timelines to save her crew whose to say the timeline she lived was better than the one she hoped to get. But since I brought up DBZ allow to leave you with this you can only change the timeline you go to. At the end we still have Prime DBZ timeline, Trucks timeline as the sole hero, and Cell's timeline no Z warriors or androids. End of the day Janeway was a hero who made mistakes and fixed as many of them as she could. And those of you that wouldn't fix some of your worst mistakes speak your case we'll hear your own argument.

[@ravingsofa...6]

Janeway and the Voyager series has many faults. But for some reason I love them both.

[@WiglyWorm]

Irregardless isn't a word. I'll donate to your patreon if you promise never to use it again. The word you mean is simply "regardless". Love your channel!

[@sid2112]

I like his work irregardless of his verbage.

[@WiglyWorm]

@@sid2112 as do i. I'm just offering him an easy pay day. XD

[@anhedonianepiphany5588]

This conflation of 'regardless' and 'irrespective' has become so common that some dictionaries now include it, sadly.

[@sid2112]

@@anhedonianepiphany5588 do they really now? Holy crap! Jesus guys I'm sorry. We just thought it would be funny to get the executives using buzzwords instead of actually knowing what we engineers were doing. It made out job easier because they were walking around with irregardless and synergy on the brains. We coined think outside of the box because the box is what we called our server lab, and it's a term for vaginas. But that's another story. *que Neverending Story fade out*

[@skatemetrix]

Irregardless is in the Cambridge Dictionary, the bible of English dictionaries, thus if irregardless was not a valid word in years before it is now!

[@Chiscringle]

Voyager is the first time we see the captain of a science ship, or indeed any ship that wasn't the flagship. Janeway's skill set was in commanding a crew that performs surveys and analysis, often on objects and locations where ships like the Enterprise had already been and neutralized any threat. It was also a technological proving ground for several upgrades that weren't fully tested and approved for general use. With that as her background, her behavior overall makes sense. She isn't a diplomat like Picard or a warrior-explorer like Kirk. Trained for situations like theirs, of course, but not expecting to handle them as a matter of routine, and always within a few days of a crew that could take over if she ended up in a situation that warranted it. All that on a ship in its first shakedown cruise with crew only, rather than something like the Enterprise D with an integrated crew and all families present. Her character works for me in that context.

[@acethesupervillain348]

You know, I think ultimately the beauty of Janeway is that she's so much more real and human than other captains. She goes through hell, she rises to the occasion, but she is also damaged by it. Even the most seasoned of captains and crews would not have gotten out of the Delta Quadrant unscathed, there's no amount of training or experience that would prepare anyone for it.

[@aperson22222]

Add to “Repressed” the fact that in “Shattered,” when the version of Janeway who was about to enter the Badlands learned all that would happen, she was horrified, determined to avoid it at all costs.

[@Oxideist]

Wasn't that after she had only seen the bad parts of their journey, though?

[@aperson22222]

@@Oxideist She'd seen a pretty fair representation.

[@lolgisticalofficer233]

I mean... Technically you can't destroy or kill kids who never existed...

[@notoriouswhitemoth]

Judging by Journey's End, the Maquis came out of people who renounced their Federation citizenship and formed their own sovereign polities along the Cardassian border rather than be forcibly relocated - in which case they were no longer Federation citizens

[@LoreReloaded]

I’ve discussed this before. regardless of what they said , starfleet always considered them citizens

[@Corbomite_Meatballs]

No one ever leaves paradise, do they?

[@alexinfinite7142]

Janeway openly refers to the ship Voyager as "home" and the crew her "family". She had to straddle a bad situation and the best way for her to handle it was to make sure everyone stayed tightly loyal and protective of each other. Not perfect but man she did a great job for someone in WAYYYYY over their head. Being taken out to the Delta Quadrant was a disaster for Voyager and it's crew in every single sense of the word. They shouldn't have even made it back home lol. The odds were staggered against her so badly it's kind of unthinkable. "Courageous Hero or Neurotic Survivor?" She's definitely both

[@theboredguy2107]

In my opinion chakotai was always the better captain, as he had been leading the maqui in battle for ages already. Able to hold the maqui and voyager crew together, and often opposed janeway’s crazy decisions on a regular basis.

[@monsterx3055]

yeah too bad he was the equivalent of osama bin laden

[@theboredguy2107]

@@monsterx3055 im pretty sure he didnt lead a religious war. Like all the Maquis he was walking the line between terrorist to freedom fighter because lets admit it, the cardassian union were genocidal A-holes who were actively terrorizing innocents in an attempt to simply capture more land. Not even valuable land it was simply land around them. I do think the maquis were misguided and foolish most of the time but before i ramble anymore, Chakotai wasnt straight up insane 99% of the time. (Insane aa the rest of the crew i mean) like he only went crazy twice.

[@Slevin-Kelevra]

Ransom did worse. Only Jellico and Maxwell would of been prepared outside of Picard & Kirk. Maybe Commonador Decker before he went nutzo.

[@YorksGamingEmporium]

I really, really like it, it all makes good sense, but please for the love of god... never say "IRREGARDLESS" again. Not in a professional setting, such as this is presented. I am sure you know the whole double negative bit... It is just such a terrible use of English is all.

[@neilbodwell9172]

Nobody believable is ready for what happened to Voyager. Species 8472 was a way worse threat than the Borg, however maybe she should have just tried to duck through there undetected and let them have it out. Realistically once they got home the folks who were gonna have families would have. Like Tom and B'elana were already married and expecting a child.

[@stevenboggess9805]

The kazon we're having a problem figuring out replicators I would have just let him have the array they probably would have ended up blowing themselves up anyways

[@DionsTravels]

now that was UPN'ing (ooopin) 9, WWOR-TV

[@everettjohnson9374]

One day I hope to be as evil as Janeway

[@brokeneyes6615]

You gotta kill a man, then they’ll send you to a slam where they say you’ll never see the light of day again and you pay a doctor 20 menthol kools to do a surgical shine jo- oh wait wrong anti-hero franchise. 😅

[@JaelaOrdo]

Same

[@mikewaterfield3599]

Ooh CBS is just pissed that the average youtuber can write better than Kurtzman. If they were smarter they would hire the axanar people, but that would require admitting mistakes.

[@Rykojames]

All I know is those shitty delta quadrant people aren’t worth 7of9 existing in a cat suit. And if I was in janeways position at the moment I would have let 7of9 die with the rest of the borg. Thus making me a destroyer of beauty which is the only true sin of universe.

[@cdowns81]

Awesome discussion my man. Never thought of janeway in this way. Mind blown

[@cookeatliverepeat8815]

"To survive war you have to become war" John Rambo. Therefore she is more a neurotic survivor to me. She and her crew faced death and pain since day one.

[@warrenreid6109]

Temporal mechanics gives me a headache. Wouldn't it had been the other way around? Rather than the future janeway timeline ending, it would have been present janeway's timeline being fulfilled. The divergence was created in the present and would not have affected the future janeways timeline with the exception of her nolonger being a part of it. The best example of this theory is in avengers endgame.

[@LegacyArkGames]

Re: Faulting Janeway for Siding against 8472: Need I remind that once they were done with the Borg, 8472 had announced its intent to destroy ALL life in the galaxy? This was a species which could quickly field a method of blowing up an entire planet. They were plenty capable of honoring that promise. They *were* a greater threat than the Borg, further exhibited in a later episode when they're revealed as having the ability to seamlessly shapeshift into and impersonate persons at Starfleet Academy. Nevermind the Borg were also a good choice because it was either fly through their space with help, or fly around their space and add a ton of time to their voyage. Command was too much weight for her? I'm sure she spent many nights crying in her quarters -- just like the rest of the crew of Voyager, stranded a lifetime from home with little hope of return. Just like those officers, she kept going. These videos seem to really, really reach to demonize Janeway for some reason. You sprinkle in a little complimentary commentary but ultimately describe her as corrupt, ignorant, unprepared, weak, so on. She was someone with a scientific background, not tactical or survivalist, reliant upon her wits and with no Starfleet to support her. I'd say she did pretty damn well against things no Starfleet officer had ever encountered prior. Yes, she was a firebrand and sometimes defied the rules to achieve what she thought were the best ends. That made her interesting.

[@LoreReloaded]

Just because the writing shows Jane way in a poor light, do not blame me. I have, doubtlessly, addressed the words used. In a follow up episode we saw they were bluffing because they were scared and trying to scare away voyager

[@seancollett6]

I always liked Janeway for the very reason that she does have flaws and like so many of us, she has a past filled with wrong turns. This is why the dynamic between her and Chakotay was so well done. Star Trek had seen the main characters pull through and make the best decisions so many times that when Janeway came along she kept us fans rooted in the reality of regret.

[@mikehendon7327]

Janeway's Warcrimes Count: "YES" Yet, at the same time, had literally any other Captain been put through the same ringer, with the same ship and conditions, it's probable that at best they would be dead, and at worst would have become Ransom...or worse. The example of "walking war crime" I tend to give being Yazan Gable, from Gundam. If the choices are Janeway, trying to hold true to her principles and her stated goal, stumbling with the best of intentions on the way... ...death, at the cost of a principle, including the deaths of (arguably) innocent Maquis who literally didn't ask for the war(s) they were dragged into... ...or Yazan Gable, getting home at the cost of her soul and destroying everything she ever cared for... ...Janeway chose what she felt was the closest thing to a proper Starfleet course of action...albeit one from the 23rd Century. This was someone who spoke fondly of the era of Kirk, even though "all of those people would have been in prison" in her era. She shifted gears to a time when the Prime Directive was viewed more pragmatically, along with numerous other rules and regulations. As Quark said, when survival is on the line, when there's no sonic showers or holodecks or replicators? When "Coffee. Black. Hot." only gets you a puzzled Talaxian? What's extraneous goes out the window and we're reminded of what every Captain truly is, in this series: A human goddamned being.

[@JemHadar422]

Tuvix was an accident. He was not natural. I agree with Kathy to kill him to get her crew members back.

[@phydeux]

"Irregardless" is NOT a word. Just say "regardless".

[@darktear099]

Christ man! “irregardless” isn’t a word!!!

[@LoreReloaded]

It is according to dictionaries

[@darktear099]

@@LoreReloaded it isn’t...the dictionaries you’re reading aren’t worth the paper they are printed on....try the oxford unabridged dictionary. Or, if that’s too difficult there’s a nice little episode of Family Guy or American Dad that explains it succinctly

[@sid2112]

@@darktear099 Webster or I quit, man.

[@Alexander-tu3iv]

@@darktear099 The oxford unabridged dictionary is biased in favour of British dialects and irregardless has its origins in Indiana and South Carolina. Language changes, if it's used enough by english speakers to be recognised by several dictionaries, it's a legitimate word to use. Stop being a snob.

[@NitpickingNerd]

Boothby's obsession with getting to know every single young cadet is truly disturbing . I guess most gardening work was done by automatic drones and he had very little actual work to do and was just hanging out with all the cadets all day long

[@Slavir_Nabru]

I don't feel bad for the people who never existed because of Endgame, I never considered the creation of another timeline where she just up and left, brutal.

[@brandonlink6568]

I kinda feel bad for the thousands, possibly billions, who would have been saved by miss goody two shoes interfering in matters on her way home

[@mightymulatto3000]

@@brandonlink6568 Lol she took away Harry's promotion. The best part!

[@Knuddelmon]

I don't think Admiral Janeway in Endgame destroyed her own timeline, she left it and created a new one, where Voyager returned home after 7 years instead of 23 years. While we don't know much about what happened to Voyager's crew afterwards (I think we'll see more in Prodigy Season 2), we know Janeway became Vice-Admiral and Chakotay Captain. I think it's safe to guess most of the others got their promotions, too, including Harry Kim (who btw. clearly destroyed HIS alternate timeline in Timeless!).

[@gorgeflower3501]

I remember the obnoxious bs about her hair change, which was deeply masochistic and rude.

[@-haclong2366]

She's a flawed character which is one of the strengths of the writing. Good storytelling sometimes makes less than perfect characters.

[@ianrotten4453]

Voyager will always be my favorite. Even my Normie wife who always said "Star Track" loved that show. Ahhh, how I miss good Track!

[@taiwansivispacemparabellum9546]

11:12 eh maybe not, existence of Tuvix might be accidental in origin, but for Tuvix’s continual existence would mean the murder of Tuvak and Neelix. I can see the relationship Janeway weights more in benefit of the whole crew.