Star Trek Deep Space Nine Ruminations S4E19: Hard Time

[@paulscott2037]

I love this episode precisely for it's great portrayal of someone suffering from PTSD. It's a tough watch no doubt but it is a great script on the whole. The fact that it is never referenced again does make me think that Bashir did figure out how to suppress those memories at a later date though. As I recall it was Pulaski that developed the procedure and then Crusher copied it but it is possible that it was a procedure that was not widely known about. After all a person can only read so many medical journals at a time.

[@connormccloy9399]

Paul Scott I think you’re trying to reach for a reason why the creators slammed the reset button on this one. I’d be perfectly happy to accept your explanation if they even mentioned it in a later episode.

[@rowlandbuck2703]

It’s just long and boring to me.

[@dreye3215]

Considering that this is a planet under Dominion control (presumably, due to being in the Gamma Quadrant), none of that surprised me. The needless cruelty, trying to break him of his values and sense of self worth, punishing him without a trial or sufficient evidence, all hallmarks of the Founder's 'wisdom'.

[@rowlandbuck2703]

I don’t think the dominion micro-manages the worlds under their control this much.

[@dreye3215]

@@rowlandbuck2703 they would when it comes to the justice system. One of the defineing characteristics of the Founders is their fear of disorderly solids and desire to control them. Enforcing harsh reconditioning of disobedient subjects would be a priority for them. In fact, we even saw the Vorta using this technology back in 'The Search: Part 2'.

[@petewatson-wailes10]

This one is such a hard watch. I really like the episode, for the honesty of the portrayal of what that sort of experience does to people, but dear lord the aliens can go burn. It's one of those were I can't help but hate a lot of what's being presented, not because it's bad, but because jeez it sucks so bad for the people involved. I really, really hoped at the time that this would turn into a character arc for O'Brien. I was so annoyed when it didn't.

[@francoislacombe9071]

Shouldn't O'Brien be unable to do his job at all? He has just spent 20 years NOT doing it, he should have forgotten almost everything about it and be in dire need of retraining. The same problem exists in TNG The Inner Light, where Picard spends an entire life away from Enterprise and yet slips right back into his role as Captain when he returns.

[@timf7413]

To be fair, at least this episode does make clear O'Brien's skills are rusty when he returns. They probably don't go as far as they should have, but at least they did more than they did with Picard.

[@RealLordFuture]

Sorry this is one of my favourite episodes and an acting tour de force for Colm Meaney

[@theurbanloner8879]

Agreed

[@jmiester25]

I love this episode. One of the best Star Trek episodes ever.

[@Spartanj42]

I totally get why you hated this episode and there's plenty of holes to poke in it. I like it only in the sense of it's realism in portraying O'Brien's state of mind and I really wish they had done more with it. Have Sisko go ballistic at the race that tortured him, have this play a role in upcoming episodes, hell they could have done an episode in the future where maybe they get ahold of the technology and they consider using it on Dukat. I mean there's so much to unpack with this episode and all this time I was just thinking they wanted to go with a realistic "there's no magic wand, some things you just have to live with" approach, but now I'm older and I realize they were just lazy. Sorry if this episode bothers you a lot Lore, but then that's the point isn't it?

[@PredatorianStyl]

10:05 The episode was directed by Alexander Singer, not Alexander Siddig (Bashir)

[@ohgoditshimrun1346]

I had not thought about it in those terms before, but you're right. Much like Worf's holosuite program last week, the program was designed to end with the brutality of the protagonist slaughtering the innocent. I have often noticed cases where two Trek episodes in a row explore very similar themes, but this one takes the cake.

[@hereticalramza]

This is probably one of my favorite episodes *because* it is a lot more realistic than the others - but by that same token, it is a very difficult watch for me.

[@Changeling9au]

Same here.

[@danielyeshe]

I have seen this episode several times and it is only now that it has dawned on me that Echar was as much a part of the simulation as anything else. Thank you for the ruminating. I am feeling dumb.

[@TheMarcHicks]

I am glad they didn't go with Sita. Her being alive all that time would undermine the tragedy of "Lower Decks".

[@tonyutter]

I agree. Giving Sito an honorable death in the line of duty after having redeemed herself was a fitting end to her character.

[@oaa-ff8zj]

One of the best DS9 episodes IMO. Great standalone sci fi concept combined with the analysis of human beings descending into savagery without basic needs satiated by technology and safety, a theme picked up later in the Siege of AR-558

[@rowlandbuck2703]

These where aliens, not humans. Humanoids I guess.

[@MissTea_Trekkie]

This is one of my favorite episodes. It is very painful to watch, but as a standalone episode it is very powerful. It is very realistic as you said and that's what makes it so hard and for some an episode to dislike.

[@videogenics86]

You've brought up points I had never considered in this episode. Makes you wonder what they do with true sociopaths on this planet cause this type of simulation, if the intent is to execute by suicide wouldn't work on a true sociopath and they would go free back at the same age as when they committed their crime and fully able to do it again.

[@earlwatt7677]

This type of punishment shows how this is not an effective means of incarceration. Those who go through this would not be rehabilitated and able to function in society. How many years of counseling will they need? Their overwhelming guilt for a fantasy could lead to suicides. This could all be addressed during the procedure so the person who emerges has completely recovered. Either poorly written, poorly presented, or if it were true, the worst type of punishment that did not accomplish what it was supposed to - to enact punishment without losing time or expense.

[@TheMarcHicks]

I doubt the purpose is actual rehabilitation.

[@Ozzy_2014]

The purpose is vengeance and sadism disguised as compassion mercy and efficiency.

[@NoelleMar]

Unfortunately the vast majority of punishments have nothing to do with rehabilitation or improving society. :-/ Which is why some people who commit heinous crimes aren’t punished at all while others lives are ruined for minor infractions.

[@TheHuester]

Legitimately got chills during this episode

[@Changeling9au]

It is quite traumatising.

[@stevenbooker8688]

Ending always makes me misty eyed.

[@hardleftturn7274]

Even though O’Brien must suffer is a trope at this point, it doesn’t ruin my immersion when it happens in the episodes for a multitude of reasons. I’ve known people who are very unlucky and seem to be a magnet for suffering, not really because of anything they did, that reminds me of O’Brien. Why it has to be O’Brien makes sense, he’s relatable and likable, and I think Colm has demonstrated that he does the best job portraying suffering of the cast, and leaving something like this to a guest character just won’t do for making compelling television which this episode is. I don’t begrudge anyone for disliking this episode but it’s still a good one. I think the proper descriptor would be a “doozy”.

[@nathanschultz5538]

I agree that Bashir should have found a fix for the problem but I'd end it with Miles deciding to deal with the emotional problems and owning what he did to Ichar. Sweeping away the PTSD without resolution would kinda negate the message of the importance of dealing with our emotional problems. Also, your point about Trek punishing one character is completely true. Chekov is injured or worse in basically every movie. LaForge is the unluckiest-in-love character ever maybe. I think whenever an early punish character X episode works for the series, it too easily becomes possible to repeat the trope. Thank you, as always

[@KnightRaymund]

"but I'd end it with Miles deciding to deal with the emotional problems and owning what he did to Ichar" Honestly I don't think that's realistic. The memories aren't real. He was violated and tortured. He's not stronger for it, he's trying to hang on and put his life back together. Choosing to keep those memories makes no sense to me.

[@paulscott2037]

What exactly could the Federation do to the race in question? It seems like Kira and O'Brien were there on a scouting mission. It would seem like the Federation has no formal ties to them. You can't just put a starship in orbit of them and be like "apologise or we'll bomb the crap out of you."

[@tonyutter]

True. Also, if this planet is under Dominion protection, I think they would retaliate.

[@Jose_Hunters_EWF_Remixes]

I would pay a large stipend to Garak to come up with some appropriately cruel (yet cleverly deployed) retaliation against the chunky alien chick and her planet of torturers

[@XavionofThera]

"You can't just put a starship in orbit of them and be like "apologise or we'll bomb the crap out of you."" ...Yeah you can. This race needs to be forcibly corrected. Their culture / government is clearly so broken and corrupt that it *should* be (forcibly) fixed. This culture is evil, it does not deserve to be respected.

[@robaitken4592]

Ensign Sito Jaxa - Hmm maybe, It is an intriguing idea but Lower Decks is just such a great episodes anchored by her death and how it affects her fellow officers, especially worf sitting their silently. Now that I type that, seeing Worf reaction would/ could have been great!

[@lordinvictus793]

I always figured the intent of the Argathi was to break the criminal's sanity. Why didn't Sisko call in their ambassador and scream at them for hours on end? If I have any understanding of Sisko, he should have been furious.

[@Tuvok_Shakur]

I have avoidant personality disorder which has some similar traits, I can't watch this episode anymore either, it makes me sad for the rest of the day.

[@rebeccaw6253]

I have a rule not to talk about potentially sad or semi upsetting things before bed...one night (maybe 7 years ago) I saw a video of an old man accidentally break an antique music cylinder while he was showing it to an interviewer - i nearly cried and had to be alone for awhile. Anyways I’m not sure why I’m telling you this, really I just want to say: Your screen name & image is fantastic 👏🏼

[@Eelco_de_Boer]

Mem-summary: Convicted of espionage, Miles O'Brien is given the memories of twenty years in prison in a matter of hours. Returning to Deep Space 9, O'Brien finds he cannot shrug the memory of his awful experience or rid himself of the guilt he feels over the death of his cellmate. (very interesting episode!)

[@jonathanfornwalt4919]

DS9 had the medical capabilities to give Worf's brother a whole new identity, wiped his original memories and gave him different ones, but they couldn't do anything for O'Brien. The "O'Brien must suffer" trope did get old.

[@rexremedy1733]

Concerning erasing memory, I believe it is much easier to remove short term memory (which they did on TNG) and long term memory. And since he memorised basically 20 years of experiences I would assume it falls into the longterm memory category, hence it’s not possible to remove it.

[@TheMarcHicks]

Sorry, but I love this episode, because it was such a great character piece.

[@rpra6435]

i fully agree with you Marcus Hicks

[@AdamCollings]

Wow. You just made this episode even more horrifying to me. I certainly don't hate this episode, I like dark gritty character stuff like this sometimes, but, I wish there had been some justice in the end, and I wish they hadn't just ignored it forever afterwards.

[@carmensavu5122]

I would have had Bashir say that in all other cases where memory removal was applied successfully, only a few short fragments of recent memory were removed. Removing 20 years worth of memories would be much more difficult, and much more dangerous.

[@TheMarcHicks]

Sorry, but I hated the "hard reset button" that was so frequently abused in TNG & Voyager.

[@BrutusMcCrunch]

One of the best ever DS9 episodes

[@vesuvanprincess]

When you asked I raised my hand without hesitation.

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

The intercom of the prison has some truly awful background details. “Food privileges have been suspended. Any inmates found with rations will be punished.” Just… gah! These people deserve to be smashed by the Dominion! But what’s even more horrifying is going off your theory that O’Brien was let out because he killed someone. By that logic, this means that the more moral the individual: the longer they’re tortured. Meaning this form of punishment is not only horrifically awful: it has no logical use as it punishes truly awful people less than the innocent!

[@dirtywashedupsparkle]

Crap. O'Brien goes through some real PTSD there. What a diabolical form of torture, and for doing nothing wrong, effectively. It's a wonder that alien species isn't cut off at the diplomatic knees for what it did to him - what they did is horribly cold hearted. Me, I'd focus on the killed friend, not the 20 years. Agree that the inability for the memories to be remedied doesn't make sense compared to other episodes, or else the damage was differently done. O'Brien's behaviour is disturbingly realistic, and I do think Colm Meaney does a great acting job here. I hope Molly didn't get scared from the scene where he shouts at her. The way he cuts his food, sleeps on the floor, the short fuse, the need to be alone. Doesn't want to talk to anyone, denies Ee'char. Some of this is similar to grief, or trauma, this behaviour - I can relate to some of these, they are real behaviours a person would suffer after something so awful. Bashir takes some punishment here, but his friendship thankfully is robust. Agree that it's good he acknowledges he doesn't understand. His words speak well - that O'Brien did care about killing his friend means he is a good man, and he shouldn't kill himself. I feel the premise is a bit too conveniently set up, but the idea is pretty disturbing. That and the acting make it an episode of some merit. May no-one ever invent such a form of incarceration, ever.

[@supernoob17]

well it looks like everyone disagrees with me but i have to say it: the super over the top darkness of this episode combined with the hard reset button make this episode HILARIOUS to me. this is one of my favorite ds9 episodes to go back to and i laugh every time.

[@jeffreymiller9438]

I thought the costumes of the Argrathi reminded me of the Prytt from TNG's 'Attached'. They should have been the Prytt. I thought it was a brilliant episode. It was prescient for the looming GWOT, was it not? What Star Trek TNG and DS9 teaches is that a lot of planets have totalitarian and suspicious governments. The Federation was always sniffing around looking for potential members, but usually avoided odious regimes. The fact that they were on Argratha is an indication of how desperate the Federation really is at this point.

[@nickokona6849]

The O’Brien gets tortured, the more and more I watch it, parallels the Worf gets beat up. Both are “this is serious. Do you get it?” Memory tech in Trek has always been as plot requires. See Pen Pals, or Who Watches The Watchers. They can when they can. They can’t when they can’t. If they could just hand wave it away, it cheapens the message about PTSD. That’s what the whole point is. It also is about a psychology study about how humans when in charge of prisons, even if they know it’s not a real prison/prisoner situation. With the slightest nudge, we can justify all manners of cruelty. I put this episode in a specific category of episodes. A decent episode, but because the emotional impact makes it unpleasant to watch. I call it the Jurassic Bark category. Cold Meany had one of his best performances here.

[@timf7413]

This episode is a hard watch, but I quite like it just the same. As much i acknowledge The Inner Light as one of TNG's best episodes, it always bothered me that they never explored the long term implications of that experience on Picard. To some extent, I feel like this episode mitigates that, even if they only deal with those implications for a single episode.

[@jeremyofficer5038]

Long term memory removal is very different from short term memory removal

[@andrewpepper3145]

Not sure I agree that real life is necessarily worse than imagination! Some truly horrendous things have happened in my imagination and my dreams that are just as awful as things that have actually happened to me

[@sternkeefer]

Pretty sure it's pronounced Call-em. I recall hearing it that way on some of the dvd special features, and there's this clip: kzbin.info/www/bejne/p3O9pJ9tgMyVgLM

[@rheiagreenland4714]

What is it with episodes that involve O'Brien and the concept of Time? It's so weird, I feel like it happened several times and each time it was really weird and bad in some way and just needlessly and pointlessly dark and cruel

[@user-yv4mm6bx3c]

This is a good episode, but it's major problem is that it's never referenced again. There are no consequences of it after the episode, there is no world building that exists beyond the episode and O'Brien is effectively back to normal the very next episode. It should have been a guest character that has to deal with this, because of the reasons I stated above.

[@thomasn3882]

There are thousands of alien races in Star Trek, and not one of them has any solution, or at least a band aid, for this? A Vulcan mind meld for instance? Ask Q to remove the memories as a favor? A quick trip to Talos 4, perhaps? In universe, it is not credible to assert that there is simply no solution to O'Brien's suffering.

[@tiffanyshank8837]

So, you're covering episodes that I haven't seen (you officially passed the point that I'd watched way back when a long time ago, and I'd been trying to watch with you until CBS All Access decided not to work on the old computer -- so I haven't had a chance to catch up yet!) but last week when you'd said that you really wanted to hear what we all thought of the whole situation with Worf, I went to watch that episode. It hit a little too close to some other events in my life for thoughtful commentary from me right now (that'll be coming later) but I left it on, and then this episode came up. I confess that I was looking forward to hearing what you thought. A lot of episodes send me away with a bad feeling but I can't put my finger on why (I can't even come up with coherent structure that grounds fiction in real life right, wrong, choice, and consequence sometimes). I didn't like the episode (actually at all besides the scenes between O'Brien and Bashir) but as always, your explanation didn't disappoint. Sigh. The thing is, sometimes Star Trek still thinks it's in the Roddenberry-verse when it's not. If the episode writers wanted to explore PTSD, they have material to do so with most of the main characters by this point, or, like you said, they could've introduced a one-shot Bajoran concentration camp survivor -- or for that matter, just bring in Ro Laren and have her let us know some of the details of the things she cryptically referenced in TNG! I think all the good stuff that this episode has could have been obtained that way without having to bring O'Brien into it at all. Also, I don't know if I've said this out loud before (just in my head), but I very, very much appreciate the way that you're good at pointing out when leadership needs to exercise courage, and when it's not okay to let others be wronged for the sake of whatever other good people are aiming for (cultural self-determination ought to have limits).

[@NoelleMar]

Oof. Very understandable why you hate this episode and feel that they overused the “OBrien’s life sucks” trope. I haven’t watched this in a while, but this would probably be the most powerful of that lot. The absolutely tragic cruelty of the scenario is part of its horror, and though it’s more calculated than most real life situations (or even others we’ve scene in Star Trek), it still conveys that same horror at being the victim of someone else’s sadism. Which is why I have MINIMUM tolerance for the Cardassians state, or people who coldly torture people for their own amusement, without empathy (in real life). O’Briens experiences of just sort of attempting to float through his return to life in a state of denial was so believable. As you said, to the point of discomfort. That’s something people don’t usually understand about PTSD-is that the torture tends to continue. People expect others to “get over it” in a very short time, and brush off even he WORST acts as temporary. Extremely depressing episode. But one of the few pieces of media where a character attempts or commits suicide due to his trauma, which happens a LOT in real life. Meanwhile, people with trauma are often mocked and driven to that point due to a lack of understanding and compassion. 😣 It genuinely portrays the destructive power of that kind of scarring experience more realistically than most, well, propaganda about the experience of recovering from prison, torture, starvation, or any sort of trauma.

[@robertmartinu8803]

It could argued that the nature of neural nets makes erasing those memories impossible. Over time those memories affect more and more of the surrounding knowledge and just blocking them would leave you with something akin to floating inputs (electronics) or rogue pointers(computer science). Not much of a problem with new and isolated memories. But after 20 years those experiences have contributed a lot to how your actual memories are processed. You'd be unable to remember, but the heuristics in the brain still would react differently - just without you understanding why. That effect would grow larger the longer you lived with certain knowledge, wipe a few days? Its like feeling a bit confused after awakening from a weird dream. After years most of thought patterns wouldn't make sense to you anymore though.

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

Head-cannon: I believe that the reason O'Brian could not be made to forget is because he is military... thesame reason he did not forget how to do his job... the perfect memories are physically hardwired irreversibly into him... that was a side effect of his deep training. (we have actual evidence of such tech/methods appear in ST-NG... { I think it was} the episode about a sole-surviving officer who was left for half his life beamed down on a barely inhabitable planet, with no tech and only memories left to him)

[@Yura-Sensei]

I liked this episode, because it's a breath of fresh air to get extra dark episodes from Star Trek. But I agree that, the way federation dealt with those fuckers is extremely lame

[@JessieGender1]

I honestly love this episode for its depiction of how ptsd and guilt works. But I do think it’s needless punishment of OBrien. Might have been more interesting if it was someone who actually “deserved” that sentence, and we question if the punishment fits the crime instead of it being clearly so far off base it’s insanely cruel.

[@meamishere1166]

I've always thought that this should have been a Voyager episode. A stand alone episode that could have long lasting effects. This would have worked. An experience that would have altered a character forever and would have to be dealt with for years (seasons) to come. Think of how different a character Harry Kim could have been.

[@rpra6435]

One of the Best ds9 episodes ever!! This only could be seen via sci fi format to show that thinks like concentration camps are no joke. I Will always disagree with lore on this one. ONE OF THE BEST EPISODES IN EVEN ALL STAR TREK SORRY.

[@NoelleMar]

Rpr A he’s not saying it’s a terrible episode, so I guess you’re not really disagreeing. I disagree with you however in saying this could only be done in sci-fi. As lore says, it’s about these horrible experiences of PTSD and how they destroy him. People do go to prison for decades. People are forced to act inhumanly in order to survive. People do live in pain and fear. Today.

[@athrunzala6919]

I think "The actor who plays O'Brien" did a great job in this episode, and I love this episode because he did such a great job. Whispers was a great episode too, but yeah, the other make O'Brien suffer episodes were not that good. Season 5, I understand that episode and maybe needs some rework, but ugh. Season 7 make him suffer was stupid and a Dax episode really I guess.

[@DiagonelleDAvignon]

"O'Brian must suffer" "I don't like that". I shouted yes! at my computer. I haaaated this episode when I watched it because I really do hate the sheer number of O'Brian suffering episodes. He ought to have had PTSD from many of his past episodes and during watching this episode I bemoaned the surety that they wouldn't carry forward this addition to his character. O'Brian should have retired or at the very least trained a number of capable co-engineers, long ago and the station didn't have Ezri as a councilor until way later than a councilor is needed and when she is there she's written more often dealing with her own stuff than helping her very traumatized co-workers. But oddly, looking back, I like what it did. I hated watching it, but I'm glad an episode touched on PTSD. I'm glad an episode touched on how hard it is for a prisoner to reintegrate into a world that just pushes them out and expects them to be fine. That's why I tolerate the blase attitude of the aliens that did this to him. I suspect they don't use this technology on their own citizens, or else they have a class structure that doesn't often subject people they deem important enough to give opinions on this punishment, to the process. From an outsider perspective, no time went by. It highlights how easy it is for someone outside an experience to not fathom how traumatic it is. And how cruel the world can be to "criminals". Perhaps that would have been made clearer if DS9 sent out for the technology to help O'Brian and somebody off station within the Federation was dragging their feet getting it to them. Drive home the mentality of "if it's not happing to me it's hard to fathom the urgency". I also like the idea of a character who works for such an idealised organization as Star Fleet being reminded of the violence and desperation they themselves can be driven to. I'd have liked it to happen to somebody a little more self rightous than O'Brian....could it instead of happened to Eddington? Lots of re-writing there but that would have opened up Eddington's character for me. While O'Brian can be stubborn and thick headed sometimes I don't think he needed to be the vehicle of this lesson. But again I do like that the episode tried to tackle these difficult things. It just would have been nicer if it happened several, clones, sport hunted aliens, incarcerations, pah wraith possessed wives, and nearly dying on unknown planets ago. (my husband and I refused to watch the episode involving Molly in the later season. The episode summary said enough for us to know O'Brian was gonna suffer and we'd loved Molly from the moment she said "where you been Mommy?". We cut our loses.)

[@mr51406]

The only thing I will like about this episode is Lore’s rumination. I can’t watch it again, it’s almost gratuitous. Meaney’s performance should have gotten him an Emmy but of course Trek never gets Emmys, adding insult to injury.

[@jamespepper8671]

I thought for sure this would be a lamentaion.

[@TheMarcHicks]

One of the highest rated episodes of Season 4 a Lamentation? Seriously?!?!

[@newfontherock]

It’s because Siddig and Meaney were brilliant. IMO, Lore hates it when suffering is an end unto itself. (Can’t say I blame you, Lore) Hard episode to watch but very good. Territory TNG wouldn’t really tackle, they barely did once with Picard in “Family”- that damn Roddenbury-box. Too bad because Stewart would have hit it out of the park. I suspect the new series will deal with it. But if something happens to that dog...

[@Jose_Hunters_EWF_Remixes]

@@newfontherock _IMO, Lore hates it when suffering is an end unto itself._ Sounds like Loreby has a low threshold for human suffering

[@Jokie155]

I've not ever watched this episode in full myself, and I'm glad someone concurs on this just being a completely unnecessary, gratuitous episode. All that needs to be said really. Thanks.

[@Ozzy_2014]

This episode is a terribllly bad idea written badly in parts but the acting of course top notch. The horrors explored. It doesn't pander. Or whitewash events or actions. It is sadism. It is cruelty. Its vengeance even when no crime actually happened. The punishment is total and an abomination to any moral being. A very bad episode for all the right reasons. I'm done. I just can't say any more about it.

[@pimptom8704]

This episode is extremely hard to watch. Like almost painful to watch. With an anime comparison is its much like elfin lied. I mean it’s a good episode. But I can’t watch it again.

[@rowlandbuck2703]

I didn’t like Obrian than much lol. I never felt the chemistry between him and Keako. This is an episode I always skip.