Louis Theroux on Neo-Nazis, Jimmy Savile, UFO Cults, and Scientology

The Michael Shermer Show # 267
Shermer and Theroux discuss: how documentary films are made • religious fanaticism and why people believe • UFO cults, end-times sects, and cognitive dissonance • Scientology: religion or cult? • neo-Nazis and anti-Semitism • prisons, pornography, and prostitution • Jeffrey Epstein and Jimmy Savile • self-help movements and gurus • deception and self-deception • social proof and human conformity • are humans naturally rational, irrational, or both?
Louis Theroux is a genre-defining documentary filmmaker best known for his explorations of controversial and complex topics. Using a gentle questioning style and an informal approach, Louis has shone light on intriguing beliefs, behaviors, and institutions by getting to know the people at the heart of them - from the officers and inmates at San Quentin prison to the extreme believers of the Westboro Baptist Church; from male porn performers in California to young women with eating disorders in London.
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[@Dave-good36]

Louis is the best documentary maker ever

[@zachhewitt767]

Louis is seriously my favorite person to watch and hear talk he’s so damn intelligent and his shows are the best

[@williamrunner6718]

Wow! Louis is probably the most reasonable documentary film maker I have ever heard! Very good guest Michael!

[@Soapasaurus]

Incredibly insightful conversation and very refreshing to hear you both talk about these topics in a way that is not overly self righteous. Great work!

[@dalemcroberts87]

Great to see that Louis is completely relaxed and then speaks freely. Michael, you are a great communicator.

[@mrpopo8298]

Wow! You managed to get a great guest, Michael. This makes up for subjecting us to Dave Rubin.

[@davidabkk]

You dont have to watch it

[@drgeorgek]

Pretty unfair. Any criticism of Wokeism gladly received …

[@GenX4ever]

...your two cents is irrelevant

[@infinitemonkey917]

@@drgeorgek Dave Rubin is a charlatan out to make money. He has no true ideology. It was amusing watching him prostrate himself to his overlords over the adoption.

[@drgeorgek]

@@infinitemonkey917 nothing wrong with making some coin

[@catcherinthesky4106]

Damn, you got Monsieur Theroux !? What a treat. He truly is one of my favorite humanoids on this planet. Two tumbs up from me to the Skeptic!

[@ellenmeilee]

Louis Louis…oh, baby! London legend. Love his work and his whole shtick. He’s so good.

[@jeffersonianideal]

1:17:15 "Imaginez Dieu sans les prisons. Quelle solitude!" The French use the same word for "loneliness" and "solitude".

[@Tom______________]

57:42 "Sensitivity training" - really!? Now thats one subject that should warrant a high amount of scepticism.

[@jeffersonianideal]

The gift of skepticism teaches us not to believe everything we think.

[@MarksMindBox]

It also gives us a rational approach to claims we don't yet believe, which is crucial.

[@jeffersonianideal]

@@MarksMindBox Agreed.

[@dreyn7780]

Well i get small movies that play in my mind that foretell of peoples deaths. They're 100% accurate. And I hate them. But I can't stop them. I've been right next to 50 people who either got murdered or were the murderer and i sensed it at the time. Cause people are constant liars I've let them all get murdered or kill off the other person. I warned Benji Venuman a few times and he got spooked by it but ultimately didn't listen. He told his girlfriend though. I saw the car and I saw who was driving it and I know he's not supposed to be driving it so I pointed my fingers at him instantly and showed what was going to happen to him. I saw the car days later and instantly I pointed my fingers at him and pulled the trigger again. He was really unnerved by it. But he never bothered to stop the car and find out what I know. The next time I saw the car he waved hello to me. I waved back and as he was driving to the restaurant i pulled the trigger again at his back as he drove away from me. I imitated firing 2 shots into the back of him. He got shot in the back in that restaurant 2 weeks later.

[@MarksMindBox]

@@dreyn7780 that's really interesting and sounds like it'd be highly traumatic, if true. The skeptical position (nor the OP) doesn't say the default position is to disbelieve any claim - that's 'cynicism'. Skepticism just requires that belief in any claim is supported by appropriate evidence.

[@robertcross9047]

Rationalism is illogical if you assume logic is a priori. Because this then collapses laws of logic on themselves, if logic can be arbitrarily true, then equally so untruth can be arbitrary as well. It collapses possibility for knowledge/epistemology, and therefore you reduce into absurdity and relativism. Only way to ground logic is transcendental appeal, and beyond that appeal in order to avoid an ad infinitum scenario is you appeal to a final self satiating self actualizing point in God. Therefore if you reject omnipotence, omnibenevolence, omniscience you reject the possibility of coherence itself. Therefore skepticism of God is illogical.

[@dakrontu]

Jimmy Savile: Yes he did a mix of things, some good, a lot bad. But the good things were camouflage for the bad things. They enabled him to appear legitimate and get close to powerful people who could protect him. He is not the only one who used such a strategy. Clement Freud comes to mind. And curiously as far as I recall he shared an office with another politician, Cyril Smith, who also slipped below the radar while alive. So carefully consider the reasons why a bad person does good things.

[@rsb8380]

Yeah I didn’t really agree at all when Shermer was trying to say it’s acceptable to take a nuanced on view on Savile because he did good things too. He did these good things as a way of gaining an unprecedented level of access to children, and to shield himself from the potential of facing any justice in his lifetime. It’s really not comparable to Bill Clinton at all. But, I’ll leave that down to Shermer probably just not being fully clued up on Savile and the horrendous magnitude and depravity of his crimes (considering he mispronounced his surname after Louis already said it 😂).

[@anovemberstar]

Exactly - the 'good' things being motivated to manipulate and groom victims and their families

[@Shlogger]

@@rsb8380 exactly. Some people don't deserve a pass of any kind even if some of their actions benefitted some people. Dude was a monster.

[@Shlogger]

I'd say it's one of the most commonly used (and effective) strategies of subterfuge used by psychopaths and people in power for centuries. It's been used by groups and individuals in positions of authority forever and it's still going on. Nothing new.

[@solomonsangori1033]

where's the other 2 replies?

[@TheRealRoyGBiv]

Never come across this channel before & I'm sure it was recommended bc of Louis Theroux. He is one of my favorite documentarions. Actually I'm currently reading his book!

[@tess7656]

There's more than one book and they're both worth the read!

[@TheRealRoyGBiv]

@BigDiggerNicks jealous?

[@kristJ25]

I love his American accent

[@Devious_Dave]

Great to see Louis, thanks. His simple-looking style hides a depth of skill & content which is a welcome alternative to slickly-presented vacuous TV.

[@tayzk5929]

Why do you like him? While I can see why some of his work is entertaining and might fool people, he's emblematic of dishonest monopolized left-wing journalism.

[@Devious_Dave]

@@tayzk5929 , "Why do you like him?" - again, I like him because of "a depth of skill & content which is a welcome alternative to slickly-presented vacuous TV". Isn't there enough media nonsense to permit an alternative view?

[@mindsigh4]

@@tayzk5929 he's getting at something more human than concept or ideal, for instance, watching doors slam on Mike Wallace from old 60 mins shows was fun for a season but Theroux gets thru the front door. & as far as dishonest, ok, he lets people (potential marks) believe what they want about his intent without correcting them, like Borat, so it is entertainment, which is monetized. would u say Sacha Cohen is more honest becuz he in later years broke character & speaks about his stance on issues as a person? also, like Jon Ronson, maybe Theroux is open in a way, ok with not being so certain, with admitting & saying " i don't know" ?

[@tayzk5929]

@@mindsigh4 Sacha Cohen is another example of someone who is extremely dishonest and immoral, to make money and distort reality.

[@wasdwasdedsf]

@@mindsigh4 he sure didnt treat the jan6 people honestly or fairly

[@dakrontu]

The Self-Help Movement is aptly named. The gurus in it sure do walk the talk: They self-help themselves to other peoples' money. Very closely tied to the Get Rich Quick By Duping Other People Movement. One way they self-help themselves to riches is to write a self-help book. Of course if in such a book they illustrated how they met their own success (ie by writing a self-help book), they would give the game away. So that's the one self-help strategy that might actually work, but the very one they can't mention. If they did, it would become apparent that it is a recursive approach, like an MLM.

[@jeffersonianideal]

1:02:05 "Without Twitter, no Trump, right?" It is indeterminable whether Donald Trump would have lost the 2016 election had Twitter never existed. If Twitter hadn't been invented, the Twitter social media platform would not have been available to the benefit or the detriment of *any* political candidate.

[@jeffersonianideal]

@Pat M "Without Twitter, no Biden." Just as implausible and improvable.

[@wasdwasdedsf]

@@jeffersonianideal no thats not inplausible or improveable. the social media extremists pushed the hunter story off the web. it would have changed, polls have proven, enough votes to change the outcome, had people known of it. of course, unless further "fortification" would have ensued... which, in turn, wouldnt be happening without the extremist politicisation of the climate as a result of the extremists at the social media companeis

[@jeffersonianideal]

@@wasdwasdedsf Ok then, prove it.

[@wasdwasdedsf]

@@jeffersonianideal huh? as i said, its already been proved. you say this as if its not beyond proven, common knowledge... considering how politicised you are, how do you not know that enormous of a fact, that your electio was stolen as a result of your politicised, extremist, clown media sites ran by ter-ts? that doesnt speak well for your credibillity

[@accesszero4803]

I like how he just lets his guest speaks

[@hardergamer]

Thank you for this top interview, the back and forth was excellent.

[@mediocrerunner3408]

Been waiting for this for a while. Excellent discussion.

[@emmyelijah7395]

I'm Australian. I remember seeing another Aussie guy in a documentary who was at Waco with David Koresh, and in an interview decades later, he said he _still_ believed Koresh had divine powers.

[@Jmith-su3ze]

Maybe Koresh did have divine powers? How do you know he didn't?

[@joshwells3782]

Jre brought me here his humility and willing to admit mistake i loved that

[@joeleone6276]

Love Louis' films. This is a great show!

[@jeffersonianideal]

1:17:22 A god that does not exist is also a god never to be angry at or disappointed by.

[@jeffersonianideal]

@liam nicklin How do you account for rhinoplasty?

[@alisonhilll4317]

This is how psychopaths think .

[@jeffersonianideal]

@@alisonhilll4317 Please elaborate.

[@xarmy5669]

y is it the 'most replayed' is always bang on?

[@TheApeVine]

I think I know why I enjoy the Docs that Louis has created ... He can draw people out, he is non judgmental, he brings us through his docs into what is happening and the people involved ... say Hello. However, having listened to him discuss his observations and more interestingly his conclusions on what he has experienced ... he does not have any. He is a sponge and has an exceptional ability to draw people out ..... however, he has no deep or notable conclusions about human nature ... either innate human nature or human practice. His fathers books are much more interesting.

[@jakemilligan6251]

louis (and sacha baron cohen) have an amazing skill of asking questions that seem neutral but force the interviewee to expose their true beliefs

[@OhMaDayzz]

Him talking about Westboro Baptist Church is interesting.

[@The.world.has.gone.crazy...]

Louis Theroux is a true hero, he is always calm, polite, gentle and most of all he does not judge and gives a fair report about the "subject" of the mather.

[@brianmeen2158]

Not anymore he doesn’t. Well then I guess it depends on your definition of “fair”

[@peterdeacon4628]

I had a job back in the fifties delivering drugs and chemicals to mental asylums I was only there for about 30 mins but picked up the atmosphere of the place and carried it for a while after I left. I seemed to be more aware of my own mental state

[@canobenitez]

happens to me every time I visit my grandma (she is 90 and in a home for eldeders). Once I leave I can't avoid to think death is so close to all of us. Everyone looks so young outside that home. Even after a short visit I remind myself we all are finite.

[@MobstersInc]

Great guest 💯

[@Randy_Bentwick]

This was a great interview. Louis is an absolute legend, and I don't think you should wait until next year to have him on, he was obviously pressed for time in this one, so couldn't fully expand the topics he was speaking on with you in the way that he could've. I'm not joking when I say I could've listened to this for twice the length of time it lasted, and I wouldn't feel bored.

[@oldtimer7635]

There most certainly are lawyers, doctors and other "educated" people among conspiracy theorists, but that´s simply because not every well educated person gain succcess. I dare to say that most of those well educated idiots are the ones who have failed, and embittered in their business or private lifes. Their failure must be fault of something or someone else, than themselves.

[@matthewseymour5165]

Great episode. One of my favourite podcasts

[@toniheikkila5607]

Just have to say that at one point it sounded a little bad, like "Back in my days we fought these important problems, but these kids today are just bored and jealous of us, so the struggle with these lesser problems they can come up with. Nothing wrong with that, let the kids play."

[@lamalama9717]

Now that Ive seen it, it amazes me you guys took so long to encounter each other! Glad you finally did.

[@korgscrew2000]

Why does Shermer insist on pronouncing surnames wrong? Savile and Theroux. It's Sav-el and Ther-roo not Sav-ille or Ther-row

[@JeremyHelm]

1:10:29 The extremely rewarding context of being at play, that something is really afoot… the social reinforcement that we are really up to something! Allusive in group concepts and language allow members to hear that their own hopes and dream are what’s at stake.

[@gaveller]

Incredible conversation, mind blown!

[@TheApeVine]

To me it is very simple and fundamental as a Citizen that all Police Services ARE REQUIRED TO - Use the Minimum Force Necessary to Secure a Situation - Then to Become Completely Responsible and Obligated to Protect the Welfare and Well Being of the Citizen that they have arrested. No confusion Here - That is Their Duty to Serve and Protect!!!

[@davegonnaway6007]

Looks good I'll watch this at some point this week..fan of both..

[@carlyharrison5732]

I love you Louis❤

[@mci6830]

I'll never forget the Louis Theroux documentary when he followed Sir Jimmy around. He stood and watched Saville , in the very busy Flying Pizza restaurant, grope a woman and her daughter right in front of his, other customers and a film crews eyes. Everyone watched. Most laughed. No one commented. Saville was a genius con man. Almost hypnotic. He knew the educated upper middle classes were the easiest people to have over.

[@Shlogger]

People like him use people like this to get away with what they do for years.

[@MrIanito]

Good stuff Chaps ☘️

[@BrassicaMusic]

Michael's explanation of pizzagate (the basement) doesn't mention the pizza/pasta codewords used in the Podesta emails, which are all searchable on Wikileaks site. Why does everyone focus on the Comet Ping Pong thing and not the weird codewords in the emails?

[@markadam1069]

And there is a basement !

[@Shlogger]

it goes so deep.. massive amounts of data and dark creepy shit surrounding all of it. It's really obnoxious hearing people comment so dismissively about it when they don't even know what they're talking about.

[@IcyWun]

Yes it's tragic

[@goblin6587]

What is a platform where I can find Loius' stuff? Last time I looked I couldn't find it

[@goblin6587]

nvm they answered my question it's amazon prime!

[@kungfreddie]

Many of the far right assumes I'm Jewish.. after Shermer assumed he was jewish... hahahaha

[@tayzk5929]

Yeah that one backfired, Louie is such a dishonest pos.

[@solomonsangori1033]

can't see the reply

[@LordMondegrene]

At 1, 18, 35, Harlan Ellison is quoted as being present for the invention of Scientology.

[@chuckleezodiac24]

Harlan is the Forrest Gump of the sci-fi world.

[@theklaus7436]

Theroux has this gift to be sincere. And you feel safe with him. Often can intelligence makes you feel uncomfortably. But Lois seems to indulge empathy. I’m a bit disagreeable! Because I often feel I’m in opposition to the ordinary people. And I suggest what I think people should do for a better world. But naively I thought people would agree. But instead I might continue my fight but using more intelligence than I am used to. Need to learn the hole life

[@submanstan7488]

Love Louis and though I've been unimpressed with Shermer thus far I thought he deserved another go. Dude couldn't even be bothered to learn how to pronounce Louis' surname though - didn't even pick up on it when he was butchering his book titles. Did he really think the pun was "throw the keyhole" or "gotta get throw this"? 😂

[@submanstan7488]

A septic sceptic.

[@drumgold23]

I don't think guilt re Savile, more a fear of being judged, in this life or the next.

[@francenjensen608]

Louis is secretly Clarke Kent.

[@mirko1989]

social logic is a big part of irrationality for sure (and in that sense not irrationality at all) , all those acts and roles we play for others . mass histeria and colective delusions

[@purplesheep99]

Superb interview. Mr Theroux has seen some interesting things.

[@eddiebaby22]

Brilliant 👍

[@Tedanson]

I didn't know his dad is Paul Theroux! fuck yeah

[@kevincurrie-knight3267]

I love Louis. But I must say that I rarely see a Michael Shermer episode where he does not cite either Dawkins, Dennett, Sam Harris, or Stephen Hawking. I seldom see episodes where he cites anyone else. And this episode is particularly impressive because he manges to cite two of them (as a strange aside) within the first five minutes of the interview. Wow. Very rational!

[@mattseym]

Just thank God he's not citing the Bible

[@mattseym]

And I'm pretty sure he cites a good few phycologists/sociologists in this pod alone... The names don't stick like one of the horsemen though.

[@chrisreeves9764]

Time for Louis to investigate the woke left!

[@organismseven3700]

That will never happen. Liberal "luvvies" like these believe anyone on the Left only have good intentions. Yes, some of them may go a bit too far occasionally but you have to cut them some slack because, well, they aren't right wing. And as every nice, decent, moderate person knows only those on the right are truly evil. That's just the way the liberal mind works.

[@glenscholes9213]

Yes

[@willywonka7812]

Anyone who thinks wokeness is a bigger threat to humanity than capitalism has a brain riddled with tumours

[@chrisreeves9764]

@@willywonka7812 You're reading a hell of a lot into 8 words dude. Chill out.

[@willywonka7812]

@@chrisreeves9764 reading the words before me at face value. Conservatives killed satire by electing trump and what am i to expect other than earnest delusion when that's all they have beyond blatant propaganda

[@KonstanzArrens]

A nice balance between Shermer's professional analytic take and Theroux's wider experiential familiarity with the weird and run-of-the-mill world of human irrationality.

[@TigreModerata]

To understand all is to forgive all... And if you do understand that 'logic' and 'rationality' are complex, in human minds, and we understand everyone is on good faith and self deceived, then how can we get anyone out, or help them in a constructive way to not do harm... If we don't have a shared 'logic', way of assessing and elaborating information, is there any way to minimise the harm that is done through many dangerous convictions? Leaving aside that it might be 'wrong' to even disagree with them at all, that the majority may be the more brainwashed side, who's to say? And after all it's just a simulation anyway 🤣🤣

[@shuffls2010]

My money doesn't jiggle jiggle it folds

[@CalisthenicsWork]

Looking forward to this one during my workout today

[@solomonsangori1033]

where's the reply?

[@davidanderson9664]

What a great find Prof Shermer: Theroux is a smart, creative and fascinating guy on all fronts. Thx! D.A., J.D., NYC

[@aaronknauer4642]

All I hear is “My money don’t jiggle jiggle…”

[@Scarhandz]

My money don't jiggle jiggle...

[@termsofusepolice]

Theroux is a thousand times more thoughtful and less reactionary than Shermer.

[@ReallyFarFarAway]

- This was a very interesting and entertaining interview / conversation : 👍 👍 👍

[@JeremyHelm]

58:02 Throwing boredom on the fire

[@olgawyn746]

You Need to learn how to pronoune his name properly.

[@oneoflokis]

Maybe you only THOUGHT you hadn't been hypnotized, Louis. 🙂 Anyway, I've seen stage hypnosis, several times, at uni and since. *They always test the audience, for the most susceptible, about 10% or so, who are really susceptible to hypnosis* . They use an "arm floating" test. You can also tell, in clinical hypnosis, if they are "under" at all, when their facial muscles relax and there is a slight skin flush. Some people can go "deeper" than others.

[@brianmeen2158]

Notice how when Michael starts talking about the insanity going on inside many universities, Louis automatically shifts and brings up January 6 lol. Ridiculous

[@leeboy26]

Probably because a bunch of armed yahoos marching on the the seat of democracy because their horse didn't come in is a far more important issue. It's like something you see in the third world.

[@MikeHunt-rw4gf]

Algorithm.

[@BrianBattles]

Great American accents

[@user-rj5kx8wr6y]

Saville analysis. Not convinced. Did he fundraise because of the kudos given or because he cared? Surely the former is the correct answer. Such things helped make him famous. I think Mr Theroux is just too forgiving. I think he searches too hard for the goodness in people.

[@mikhailhumphries]

He is best on tiktok for his song "My money don't jiggle jiggle it folds"

[@souxcasa]

"I like to see you wiggle wiggle for sure"

[@staunch2207]

Louis has grown up a lot, I remember decades ago he had an attitude of a frieindless 18 year old school boy in a 30 odd year old body who had never done any physical labour in his life. I'm glad people and experience has helped make him an interesting person and not just one of the gormless masses with a tv job.

[@phuckpootube6231]

Prison brings everything back to the most basic. Stay with your tribe or die.

[@heatleynoble]

Louis started talking about 'global warming' like it was the 90's. It's 'climate change' now Louis.

[@fainitesbarley2245]

Isn’t it now ‘climate emergency’?

[@tcritt]

Global warming is part of climate change, smarty pants.

[@kungfreddie]

What?? Ppl are overly literal? U don't say... every democrat: trump said 35000 lies!!!!!

[@X1Y0Z0]

💯❤️🙏🏽🤩

[@arvinsenglishph2293]

Love podcast

[@god_first_self_last1416]

You Should also look into the NeoThink/NeoTech Society

[@odoublegfpv701]

You had to do because you were there with him dude lol

[@ManipulationDoesntWork]

The pieces are slowly coming together

[@jasoncreamer5747]

great conversation.

[@NoMoeMistaNiceGuy]

yeah, not bad, But they clearly have TDS

[@solomonsangori1033]

can't see the reply

[@NoMoeMistaNiceGuy]

@@solomonsangori1033 say what?

[@alisonhilll4317]

Three minutes in and still he talks and talks what's wrong with some Americans ?

[@krisbest6405]

The fact of nipples on most of us says its a dice throw . Two of my fav thinkers. Loiu is so brave in confronting problems,l,ve watched him grow.

[@jbri1]

Love how you start making Theroux (through) puns and then go back to pronouncing his name like 'Thoreau' :') sorry to be so pedantic

[@brachio1000]

20:36 -- I suppose some Q-Anon were among the people who protested in Washington, but the two are not synonymous. Shermer accidentally gives an example of cognitive dissonance in showing dismay that the crazy nuts weren't actually crazy nuts.

[@wasdwasdedsf]

they have such a base level media propaganda view on things yet speak with such confidence...

[@brachio1000]

@@wasdwasdedsf: Well put.

[@Shlogger]

@@wasdwasdedsf that's my problem with most self proclaimed "skeptics" in general. They approach everything from the perspective of the official narrative being accurate or "official". lol. As if it hasn't been proven over and over again that there's been coverups, outright lies and corruption constantly for years and years. It's such an arrogant viewpoint and is actually counterproductive honestly. It's good to have critical thinking of course but not to the point where you're not receptive to new possibilities. But I still give them a listen every now and then because I too need my beliefs questioned regularly to strengthen them if nothing else.

[@solomonsangori1033]

where's the other 2 replies?

[@fractalnomics]

What would it take for us not to believe in climate change?

[@j.christie2594]

Gawd

[@sommi888]

🧡💛💚💙 Timestamps people TIME STAMPS

[@kevjames4236]

All I can hear is this guys spit and it's vile.

[@odoublegfpv701]

Moore was a noooonce too no?

[@odoublegfpv701]

Or should I say Is

[@micu1544]

I don't think its fair to mix Christianity up with mormonism and scientology and say they are all the same thing, this is very glib

[@DanHowardMtl]

Did Louis Theroux ever mention in his fancy movie on Phelps that he was a Democrat? Phelps actually ran in several elections.

[@Michael.Eddington]

Timestamps

[@cosmicstring9656]

Hopefully Shermer and Theroux know the difference in the use of America, The United States "of" America and Americans?

[@jmac3327]

Yet another garden variety leftist.

[@leehayes70]

Junk…

[@Johnconno]

Louis 'Mr Stupid ' Theroux. Despite the best education money can buy.

[@MattyRouter]

Big nose...