Louis Wilson: We SHOULD NOT fight for King and Country - 3/6 | Oxford Union

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On 9th February 1933, Oxford Union members voted 275 to 153 in favour of the motion 'This House will under no circumstances fight for its King and Country', a result met with outrage from the political establishment. Sir Winston Churchill described the vote as an 'abject, squalid, shameless, avowel', citing it as a reason for Adolf Hitler's later brinkmanship. Ninety years to the day after this motion was first put to the House, would this house still not fight for its sovereign and kingdom?
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[@paulmatters2641]

The point is that For King and Country is an ideological justification for imperialist wars.

[@xyzzyx101xyz9]

Well argued and succinct.

[@TheAmerican1963]

Yes, defense cuts ....... but a camera on every corner street of England ............

[@stevesandford1437]

Excellent young speaker with a clear, succint and well-presented argument. (Union President Charlie Makintosh please take note...) xx SF

[@grassypants4450]

British military intervention in Northern Ireland did work. It forced the paramilitaries to the negotiation table.

[@paullygate2942]

Aye so it did British forces supported the uda and uvf with arms and logistics

[@natmeyy7590]

We are constantly being told that we should be proud of Britain ,Bow down to the unelected monarch and their family ,give our money to them in what's being framed as a democracy. I have an idea let people choose what they do with their taxes ,let's have an opt in opt out option and let's redistribute the unelected monarchys wealth back to the nation ,and allow them the opportunity of employment like everybody else.

[@sovkhan4359]

And look what people do when millions of people simultaneously have free control, they want foreign “refugees” and illegal immigrants to enter the country on dinghies so we can give them the best quality housing and cars so our own children will have nothing by the time they grow up; they will struggle to get their own housing and they will struggle to find jobs because they will rather have a foreigner do it for them for cheaper. Those people make me sick to the stomach.

[@WSmith_1984]

I second this....

[@HenryLeslieGraham]

communism????? when has that ever ever ever worked???????????? delusional

[@natmeyy7590]

@@HenryLeslieGraham democracy! When has that ever worked? Brainwashed!

[@HenryLeslieGraham]

@@natmeyy7590 are you for real???? seriously wtf is wrong with you????? gulag archipelago means nothing to you? holodomor? great leap forward? killing fields? or do you not live in the real world where wealth distribution cannot ever work

[@jsade6800]

Well done , young man

[@MichaelHolloway]

he argues for imperialism, but the right to choose which imperial adventure is the best one to fight. sad but not new.

[@Loundsify]

He never says that. He argues that if territories are attacked we should be able to defend ourselves and having the tools and funding to do so is important. The main argument is diplomacy should always be the first option and basically to never escalate to full scale war.

[@why-fi926]

♥

[@atticlight9048]

A very impressive speech.

[@Johndonald-cz1gl]

great speech, Louis.

[@WSmith_1984]

Be careful who you trust, never trust the government, even your own teeth bite your tongue now and then..... The we people win this was is by not showing up to fight it for those who wouldn't be willing nor capable of doing the same...... Peace, power and freedom to all.

[@sayantanigupta2131]

Well argued and decisive. Kudos

[@zacboyles1396]

“King AND country” It doesn’t matter if your country is invaded, it doesn’t matter if you have a gun in hand fighting off the invading forces, why oh why would you consider that as fighting for some ‘divine’ monarchy? You could say never fight for “king and country” while also support fighting to defend your country. These students sound intelligent in some ways while in others they seem to lack basic logic.

[@nannyplum0194]

And for that Blair was knighted instead of being tried for war crimes

[@matthewo2261]

Soldiers say they fight for country, while mercenaries fight for money, only one of these two is truly aware of what they're doing, both are merely pawns.

[@hermitpermit2553]

All of these arguments against assume that you always have a choice. The wars we must fight are the ones that reach our shores or limit our freedom whether we have chosen to fight them or not

[@nickward230]

He literally acknowledged that as a just reason for fighting a war.

[@davidcoleman2796]

No more . Now we have this new king . It's time to stop all this .

[@Llowdar]

The point of the speaker is correct looked by his point of view, but I think he's misunderstanding the proposition. "You should fight for king and country" demands to question if we (even if I don't leave in UK) have a common superordinate set of values to be united in. It's an expansion of the concept "whould you fight for your kids and family?", the answer is yes. After assessed that we can debate on the circumstances. Edit: typos

[@The_New_IKB]

I would argue that failure of Afghanistan and Iraq are both related to the Americans being in charge of how the states were set up afterwards!

[@chidiizunwanne]

How could you make a case for ending military interventions, and increasing the military budget in the same argument? I really hope you evolve from neoliberalism, but I fear for our future.

[@naynay1139]

What’s happening now in western societies, people are now afraid to be anti war. It’s the scariest time to be alive

[@zacboyles1396]

I too was taken aback, although in a way it was fitting in a speech that acknowledged untrustworthy politicians lying a country into wars but then seemingly had unquestioning support of Ukraine as if the same revelations won’t come out about that in 20 years - aside from what’s already come out or hell, what’s long been understood about the place.

[@Loundsify]

I think it's more that if we have the tools to defend ourselves, diplomacy will work as our enemies would think twice than to invade or attack us.

[@agreeneish]

Yeah you’d fight for your right to party ..

[@samuelturner1668]

How can this guy just make up his own exceptions? Fighting for other countries isn't part of the motion. The motion here is about fighting for your own country.

[@robertwatson9940]

Long live King Charles.We have to fight Russians if you are called up.

[@The_New_IKB]

I have more trust in the King than in any elected politicians!

[@f.u.c.kfrance2023]

Nice talk