The Impressively Bad Level Design of Sonic Forces

[@Double400]

The "From the people that brought you Colors and Generations" thing that showed up at the start of the Sonic Forces trailer was definitely a bold faced lie cause it's crazy how different Gens and Forces are from each other. Pretty sure Forces only had like 2 level designers and one of them was completely new to designing levels

[@evdestroy5304]

3 level designers, two of them were new and one of them had only ever worked on Lost World

[@WhoAmI928]

You forgot about how they worked on the game for a single year

[@evdestroy5304]

@@WhoAmI928 They did not, and even if that was the case there are plenty of Sonic games that have been in development for 1-2 years that are considerably better than Forces

[@CTGReviews]

@@WhoAmI928 That was a mistranslation, but yeah it was still rushed

[@mutationkorno2400]

I found you, faker!

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

Thank God Shadow Generations came years later to show the world what good boost game play looked like.

[@bowtiefries]

It would've been so cool if mortar canyon was made in Shadow Generations

[@klaus.sfc01official30]

​@@bowtiefries mortar canyon has imo the best theme in the Ost but you hear like 10% of it in game so yes that would've been amazing.

[@Plurbi]

ngl i think shadow generations is more akin to the adventure formula, with boost elements sprinkled in

[@jeremyince8403]

LOL thats not boost bro thats kinda adventure and boost mix, but definitely not a boost like unleashed ps3😩

[@xdanielol4835]

General Kenobi

[@yuki.35xxxv]

"How can a game that so often play itself, feel so bad to play!?" Same energy as "The soup is cold, and the salad is hot, how is that even possible!?"

[@DonChalant]

My biggest problem with this game it that it WANTS to play itself. There are dozens of moments in this game where if you're touching the stick at all Sonic will just get sent flying off of a slope or a turn and it drives me insane.

[@thegaragebandman8592]

It’s like that one annoying little cousin

[@thefastcommenter7774]

@@thegaragebandman8592 No its not????

[@bocodamondo]

the fact that they removed the drift is what pisses me of the most

[@zeroattentiongaming820]

When Sonic has too much 90s attitude to be controlled

[@thefastcommenter7774]

@@bocodamondo It was really needed in Modern Sonic's Metropolitan Highway

[@yetravellingsonc8372]

Honestly the fact that Forces not only had really bad level design but literally committed false advertising at points (accrediting the Colors/Gens developers when only a few key names returned, hyping up bosses with Shadow and Chaos only for them to be absent), it's a damn MIRACLE the game got stuck with the "it's just okay" badge and not the "death of a franchise" badge that 06 has been wearing for decades.

[@AdamWright-t7w]

Eh...

[@AdamWright-t7w]

Also, i just noticed the pfp. Why is it so goofy? lmfao

[@LordArikado]

I'll always stand by my belief that while Sonic '06 was barely functional, at least I could see some ambition and honest effort put into it that was squandered by Sega insisting on it coming out in holiday 2006. I could see it being at least okay under better development conditions, if not necessarily spectacular. Forces is just so ass-backwards in every design decision and its marketing was full of so much deception to generate false hype for it that I genuinely can't understand how someone can like it on any level other than "it isn't buggy", as if that's the only standard Sonic games should live up to, and as if some of the most beloved Sonic games aren't, on a technical level, held together with duct tape and hope.

[@backwardsbandit8094]

Sonic 06 earnt the "death of the franchise" badge because it was broken. It didn't work properly. It would constantly soft lock players out of the damn game making it literally impossible to finish. Forces gets an "it's okay" badge because the bar is THAT low. (Also because the side challenges in forces makes it marginally more interesting than the core game + it earnt bonus points for customizable character)

[@AniGaAG]

It's telling that people call these stages extremely short. Statistically, many of them are not actually _that_ short for Sonic stages - but design-wise they are so lacking in the "actually going somewhere" department that they end up _feeling_ very short.

[@tadaokou4919]

Some people just have to realize that ,,at least it's not Sonic 06!" is not an argument or suddenly makes a bad game like Forces good...

[@MeteoraZero]

You could argue Sonic 06 is better because at least Sonic 06 has good level design. It's just that the game barely functions and the characters are sluggish

[@tadaokou4919]

@@MeteoraZero Oh, I would personally argue it's a far more enjoyable experience. And at least 06 got passion put into it, even if it falls flat.👍

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

This. I'd take a hundred 06's over a single Forces, at least the shit '06 gameplay was at least... gameplay?

[@lpfan4491]

The one thing I will give Forces over 06 are the bossfights. The ones in Forces are pretty decent at least, while the one in 06 Sonic story(Didn't play the other stories) are the worst thing ever.(If the most fun boss is Silver, that should tell one that there's an issue) Otherwise, yeah. At least 06 felt like what it was supposed to be, an SA-adjacent game. Forces is meant to be Generations-adjacent, but it's just not.

[@jayceallen6530]

@@MeteoraZeroi agree with the level design for sure after seeing p-06 the stages look so fun and satisfying to run through, cant wait to play the project for myself when its done hopefully late 2023-2024

[@sonicsillies]

i was relieved when the sonic frontiers cyberspace levels had different things you had to quickly react to, and how sonic's speed increases gradually & naturally. it wasn't always just boost to win, unlike forces. and for most of the levels, they're fun to go back and replay to obtain all the vault keys. i wish there were more new designs though...way too many of them were green hill zone themed. but overall i am very happy with frontiers :)

[@MrProg-ey3tl]

Well the thing about Frontiers, is that the Cyberspace levels were basically copy-pasted from other 3D Sonic games. So you can't really give it a whole lot of credit on that front.

[@juliamxd9614]

@@MrProg-ey3tl to be fair there are a few original levels and in my opinion they are pretty fun, but the apfoach to the old levels is still somewhat different due to the new physiscs

[@wolfdragox5563]

Yeah I actually enjoyed the cyberspace far more than I thought I would, obviously are not gens level of quality but are a lot better than Forces

[@fansee1368]

@@wolfdragox5563 With everyone panning the cyberspace as much as they did, I ended up enjoying it more than the average person Zero expectations after the mess we got with Forces definitely helped lmao

[@osu-osu-osu]

It really annoys me how hyped up Frontiers gets because it's better than complete garbage even though it's so mediocre

[@XxROTSA2xX]

Here’s why Sonic Forces is worse than Sonic 06: Everything wrong with Sonic 06 is the result of rushing and not being play tested, but everything wrong with Forces feels intentional.

[@yosh9192]

Whereas Sonic 06 takes a lot of huge risks and tries to do things that are ambitious (a little too ambitious considering how rushed the game was), Sonic Forces feels so safe and samey to the point that it feels like it’s afraid of giving the player agency at times, and the story is handled in literally the blandest way its premise possibly could be.

[@captkate-yz8kd]

I never played 06, but Sonic Heroes is probably the second most laggy Sonic game after 06 or so, and I'd rather play it over Forces. I got very frustrated due to the horrid controls of Heroes sending me flying off cliffs randomly, messing me up in special stages, preventing me from taking alternate paths without using a flying character fearing I'd fall off the stage, etc. And don't get me started on the repeated replaying of these levels and them being way too long each instead of multiple levels. But I still preferred it to Forces because the enemies were fun, the stages were mostly well-designed and had some fun gimmicks, and it doesn't come off as "playing safe". Not to mention multiple other reasons such as other characters being actually fun to play (the Avatar in forces was a start, but not enough. And Super Sonic, Classic Sonic, AND Shadow? Really?), an actually cohesive storyline (while could've been improved) that didn't try to be edgy then immediately bail out of doing so, and a good final boss that isn't a copy paste. Heroes actually did some original level designing, even if it brought back Casino levels and stuff. Forces just downgraded past levels using the same background.

[@Thaumiel98]

And now we have P-06

[@Baconator2558]

I don't think the poor art direction is a result of it being rushed.

[@ChimeraReiax]

Nah 06 is also kinda just boring and cringe lmfao The plot is the most Whatever thing in the world written like a bad anime, the level design is only 1/3rd decent yet *jam packed* with useless gimmicks, Silver playing like shit wasnt cuz they were rushed but because they WANTED him to be slower paced & physics oriented, and i dunno but hard cutting between wildly different playstyles mid-stage just gives me a sense of whiplash. I don't get to choose to play a treasure hunter character; that choice is made FOR me by the stage. And those AWFUL elise stages jesus christ. Do people really think ChaosX "fixed the game" cuz he smoothed it over and implemented ideas sonic team were NEVER going to put in themselves? Really? This is your GOTY? Talk about breaking point god damn. This isnt to disrespect his work at all, its sick, but the revisionist history people have with this game makes me feel like i'm an Arkham patient. What the fuck guys.

[@corel7966]

forces is the embodiment of everything people thought the boost games were back in the day.

[@Crazy_Gamer_OG]

Sonic Forces is a perfect example of 'spectacle over substance' game design.

[@fictionalmediabully9830]

Even then, I don't think there's much spectacle that impressed me like the giant orca whale and the monster-sized GUN truck.

[@Gnidel]

Well, Infinite changing gravity and using tentacles to destroy roads was spectacular.

[@ultimatedumbass4640]

Except there's less spectacle in this game than in Unleashed, Colours or Generations imo

[@jayceallen6530]

@@ultimatedumbass4640not even your opinion its factual. This game rarely has cool camera angles and when they do them it feels off

[@Comkill117]

Which is funny because the spectacle compared to other games like Generations, Colors, or the earlier 3D games is so lacking. Gens had the Gun truck chase come back and then have it whip out rocket boaters and giant saw blades.

[@KingTvlip]

The lack of creativity, overuse of automation, and complete and utter lack of new themes/assets is what makes these levels even worse than what they are. Because level ports of these in Generations, make them feel and play MUCH better. Great video btw!

[@mattlane5632]

What I don’t understand is what happened to the length of the stages and the creativity. I also couldn’t understand the control of every character. It should always be a thing where you decelerate when you let go of the stick instead of instantly stopping in a Sonic game. They did this again in Frontiers for the Cyber Space levels and I was not liking it.

[@Gnidel]

I understand what happened to creativity - reduced budget after flop of Sonic Boom initiative happened.

[@SparkTFS]

@@Gnidel in other words, Sega happened. Sonic Boom flopped because it was bonkers, and it was bonkers because of poor management from Sega.

[@rynobehnke8289]

Well, the control problems are born from Forces being built on top of Lost world which in its Mario like design has a run button and near instead speed stages of non, walk and run. Forces did not alter anything to give proper acceleration or deceleration instead does the game after walking a few steps switch from Lost world Walk to Lost World Run mode and if you don't move the analoge stick to the not-moving state. Frontiers was built on top of Forces so some of Lost Worlds weird quirks still pop up in it from time to time there.

[@worthybutter2004]

@@SparkTFS I thought Sonic Boom was made by a different team than Sega?

[@splegoon4289]

@@worthybutter2004 Sega doesn’t develop their games, dev teams develop them. Sega itself is a corporate entity, an entity that has constantly meddled with Sonic’s potential and passion for the last 20 or more years.

[@shalpp]

Forces' biggest problem imo is the blue swollen nuts the stages leave me when they seem they're about to pop off into something neat

[@TheJadeFist]

7:50 That chemical plant level also has a fairly hard as nails time attack mission.... which most people don't even know the game has time attack missions... because they are hidden in the missions list.

[@hyperentity114]

Finally someone says it. This game doesn't deserve a mediocre pass. I think the only reason people call it that is because they're either too numb to care or they're just looking for something good in this huge pile of puke. This game isn't mid, it's bad.

[@lpfan4491]

They say it is mid because "it doesn't have that many bugs and is semi-polished". Like, yo, by that logic Frontiers is way worse than this and that gets a yikes from me.

[@Gnidel]

That's because the game is consistent. It doesn't have any moments that we pray to be over with, like with werehog or other characters in SA2. It's fast, speedy mediocrity all the way.

[@lpfan4491]

@@Gnidel I thought people hate the Classic Sonic-stages in the game. I personally don't, but I'm an anomaly anyways in that I enjoy the game as far as it can be enjoyed, but I still think it's dirt.

[@bmac4]

I didnt find that it did anything egregiously bad so as to be completely and thoroughly unfun, and it frankly didn't last long enough to even drag on too long. It's a veritable 4 out of 10. Like its not good but not lacking in anything resembling a redeeming quality.

[@ButtonMasherReal]

Hard disagree. This game isn't memorable enough to be bad. It's boring and forgettable, which is arguably even worse than just "bad". Though I do think that some Sonic fans nowadays are way too forgiving of the games' flaws, just because they see something good. I've seen people defending Sonic '06 for that kind of crap.

[@bulb9970]

It’s been 5 years and I still enjoy watching people bash on this game

[@TwitterVS]

I really want to see you cover the Cyberspace stages from Sonic Frontiers. I feel like those levels fit with this series and could be considered "modern Sonic boost gameplay"

[@trollplays901]

@@hessenic6862 IMO Frontiers moveset is pretty neat. the stomp bounce, double jump, air dash and drop dash (mostly for the 2d) sections make some of the levels fun to pay. A notable example is 2-2 which I consider better than the original dragon road act 3, mainly because of the stomp bounce and the ability to cancel your air dash. Also I personally enjoyed the 11 ish original stages and the adventure 2 remixed ones are pretty well adapted. The biggest change to the level design is the removal of the "boost through enemies" mechanic, which really helps streamline the levels and make it more about platforming instead of basically level filler.

[@silversoul5285]

Like Hessenic said, they pale in comparison to the greatness of Gens or Unleashed, so there's wouldn't be much positive to say other than "better than forces, bar was low etc".

[@vaquishers]

To be fair, cyberspace wasn’t their main focus. I have no idea how people enjoyed it more than the open world where sonic controls have never felt so fluid while going high speeds

[@beeeffgee10k]

@@hessenic6862 You aren't a shitty, unwieldy, clunky, uncomfortable tank that can't precisely platform or turn when boosting in Frontiers compared to most boost games, and the original stages are better than most boost stages.

[@NL-X]

@@hessenic6862 the boost is not broken. You can't kill enemies with it, so they finally fixed that. Also, helped the new developers to learn how to level design Sonic

[@cjgg4885]

Oh my fucking God, I thought I was the only one that had that sentiment on 2D Modern Sonic. It's ridiculous that people give Mortar Canyon a pass simply because it's 3D, even though it's literally features the most counter-intuitive game design in the entire medium. The 2D sections in this game aren't bad because of them fundamentally being 2D, they're bad because they have incredibly basic level design, terrible physics and still have the boost to win minimal gameplay a lot of the time. I would gladly play every single 2D section from boost game likes Unleashed and Generations a thousand times over before I even touch a single polygon of the 3D sections in Forces because good level design is good level design regardless if the camera let's you see the characters ass or not.

[@Onaterdem]

I like the flow of Mortar Canyon. Everything is fast paced and fun and flows together nicely.

[@yoshicookeyclub]

as someone who pre-ordered sonic forces. i've never regreted a purchase more. i have brought completely broken $60 games, and had a better time.

[@illdraco5779]

Same😔

[@Voltricity435]

wasn't forces $40 when it first released?

[@togashi8287]

Dude I bought this game on sale for $10 and still considered getting a refund after beating it in 3 hours.

[@yoshicookeyclub]

@@Voltricity435other more broken games at £60 gave me more entertainment.

[@matrixmaster9616]

Without Sonic Forces, we wouldn’t have Sonic Forces Speed Battle.

[@TheCreepypastaGamer64]

I played this whole game in one stream when it was free for PS+ users and I never wanted my free back so badly

[@Comkill117]

I’m so glad Shadow Generations and Sonic Frontiers came in and showed that the boost gameplay can be done well, much like Sonic Generations, Colors, and Unleashed before them. Those games had so many alternate paths, cool visuals, awesome music, and actually controlled decently (well the new games do at least, the old boost games always felt off to me, especially after the Adventure games nailed the control feel). Fittingly, the weakest level in Shadow Gens is Sunset Heights.

[@possumorb3770]

And Sunset Heights still goes hard in Shadow Generations

[@Xx_Aberforth_xX]

And sunset heights is my favorite level so that shows how much they upgraded it

[@klaus.sfc01official30]

The best thing about this game is that you can most likely finish it so quickly, you still get a refund on steam.

[@Rupninjatrash]

Been a Sonic fan since I was a kid, and I've played most of the mainline games. I played Sonic Forces a few years ago, and that's the only Sonic game that I quit playing because it was so bad. I remember there being a stage by the end of it where I couldn't keep track of my character because the background was so polluted and the platform colors were so similar to everything else that I kept losing lives. Since Sonic Frontiers has come out, the reviews seem to be alright, so I hope to have fun with a new 3D Sonic game once again!

[@silversoul5285]

All I can think about when I play forces is how, before its release, I was hoping Sega would do more than simply make generations 2. When I played what could best be called colours 0.9, I would have happily bought gens with a 2 slapped on it and some extra levels.

[@j-se6js]

What do you think of shadow generations? 😝

[@HappehMasterChannel]

Fun fact about mystic forest: You can beat it just by holding the boost button without any need to turn at all, if you time your jumps and homing attacks well. It actually makes the level more fun, ironically

[@Shxnon]

forces was so disappointing, the custom character had the most entertaining gameplay imo

[@Katakuna15]

The only good thing about Forces.

[@robertlupa8273]

@@Katakuna15 the music was pretty good for the most part too

[@DamashiTheKaotic]

I feel like everyone on Sonic Team's level design team needs to be forced to watch this video, and your generations one, every time they are about to start making a new level, cause something like Forces' level design cant be allowed to happen again.

[@fictionalmediabully9830]

(- I feel like everyone on Sonic Team's level design team needs to be forced to watch this video -) There are so many problems with this sentence.

[@DamashiTheKaotic]

@@fictionalmediabully9830 100% could be worded better, but I still stand by over all sentiment, hyperbole aside.

[@arkanarayanbagchi5192]

@@DamashiTheKaotic there were only 3 level designers. One worked on lost world and the other 2 never worked on a sonic game before. None of the level designers of colors and generations worked on this game.

[@miadatenshi9903]

News: A new game was released, it's called Sonic Frontiers

[@SparkTFS]

They should hire/bring back more experienced deisgners, instead of trying too profit just by hiring unexperienced ones. Also, give more time for them.

[@RustyShackleford27]

Missed opportunity to say that you had to Sonic Force yourself to finish the game at the end

[@AniGaAG]

It's always fun to actually see someone be able to dissect Sonic level design on a deeper level; it's a way more deceptively complicated topic than most people likely think, to the point where the complexity of asking "What makes Sonic stages good?" can practically compare to asking that question for the likes of Metroid. All the more pleasant to see someone actually be able to dissect that kind of thing in the boost games, which are way easier to misjudge off surface impressions. So here's my respect, good sir. Good video.

[@alexpineda9322]

I love just your dedication of breaking down and analyzings parts of sonic levels

[@jeffproductions11]

Sonic Forces is the perfect example of "All Style, no Substance" Game design

[@seematahir5970]

I will say Forces is infinitely more enjoyable from the perspective of a speedrunner. Seeing how many cool tricks these guys use to get faster times opens up these incredibly dull levels in some fascinating ways. Null Space is probably the only Forces level I go back to time attack. Not only does it just have some half-decent 3D design in general, but its circular design means players who are paying attention can cut ahead to later parts of the level and shave off entire minutes. It's still way too short, and pales in comparison to its predecessors, but the little depth it has makes me want to run around and explore it fully.

[@UltraSTH]

That’s also why I think Mortar Canyon is a great level in terms of speedrunning. Flying through it and finishing in under a minute is incredibly satisfying

[@lpfan4491]

The only thing I found semi-fun to speedrun was the final boss. And even then, a run could so easily die in any phase and especially phase 3, that I just stopped eventually.

[@quarter4935]

my thing mostly is, ive always preferred 3d sonic, not just boost but all of it. Though i totally draw the line at forces, it really leaves a bad taste in your mouth its crazy

[@Bushman26]

Never knew that people hated the level design. I always thought that most of the zones were unique.

[@AdamWright-t7w]

Agree

[@BeefbossZilla2011]

The main problem with Sonic forces for me is that the levels are over before they’ve even got going. The most shameful example is mortar canyon, I was able to beat it in 57 seconds as super sonic and 1 minute and 2 seconds as normal Sonic/Shadow.

[@Scerttle]

2D Sonic handles like ass in Forces too, and it's SO baffling. It just felt SO BAD after Sonic Mania. Honestly, going from a game made by fans to a game made by Sonic Team... it really showed how poorly Sega seemed to get Sonic in 2017. I've yet to play Frontiers but it still seems like Sega doesn't get it from the reactions I've heard so far.

[@MisterChief711]

frontiers is great man. best sonic game since gens

[@SonicTheCutehog]

Mortar Canyon is only liked because it's entirely in 3D.

[@nightlydata2181]

I completely agree ESPECIALLY THE TAKE ON 2D IN SONIC GAMES. All ur boost vids have been an AMAZIN analysis on wut makes this work & I thank u for that. As a boost fan Forces is a disgrace

[@bmac4]

I definitely found the avatar levels the most fun part of this game, but "the most" is doing the heavy lifting of that sentence. The shoehorned 2D classic sonic levels just felt soulless. Forces has no sense of identity; I legit couldnt tell if it was trying to be the next boost Sonic, Generations 2.0, or the OC creator Sonic, because those ideas felt at odds with each other in practice. If anything the saving grace with the game is that it's very short, but you dont spend 40$ for a game this short and stupid, and much of that shortness comes from how genuinely anticlimactic the levels are, right as they feel they're gonna get to the epic moment of the level they just end

[@amarolidris4324]

Forces is just painfully boring. 06 & Boom were both pathetically bad games that is so bad it's funny. This? God it was such a chore to play

[@PatoVolador208]

After playing through all Sonic stages in P-06 (for those who don’t know, it’s a fan recreation of 06 without the whole buggy mess part, but as far as I’m aware, same level design), I can confidently say that Sonic 06’s level design is actually so fucking awesome. It actually uses the 3D environment like in Sonic Adventure, but expands on it and it gets you always thinking on what path to take, what moves to do, etc. And Shadow stages DEFINITELY don’t fall behind, after playing through most of them, the only thing you need to know is how I just stopped and thought to myself: “YOU CAN RIDE A MOTORCYCLE IN THIS GAME?!” (I can’t confirm that’s in the original game) They are all so badass, and it makes you feel like the ultimate life form you are. Now, forces I have not played, but you can tell it must feel like nothing at all. No immersion, no feeling like the blue blur itself, no nothing (or I guess yes nothing?) So, that’s why Sonic 06, while being a buggy mess, if you just ignore that (like if you were playing Sonic P-06) you get the best level design in a Sonic game ever. Just play Sonic P-06 and you will know what I mean.

[@froakie1404]

I like the objectively incorrect marketing that was “from the people who brought you colors and generations” when the level designers had nothing to do with this game

[@LordArikado]

It has the same vibe as that international poster for the movie Donkey Xote that had the tagline "From the producers who saw Shrek" on it.

[@gabrielcarvalhoseixas3112]

4:54 the flames of Disaster

[@Kimonia6]

The fact that Sunset Heights is in Shadow Gens and has better level design than the entirety of Forces really shows how SEGA learned from it's mistakes.

[@sonictag-teamheroes8835]

Unlike either of the Sonics, the Avatar stages felt fairly solid I'm terms of controls. The slower speed and the expanded vertical mobility options made the extended 2D platforming segments flow better. It honestly felt like they used how the Avatar handles as their baseline when designing levels and only made minor tweaks to accommodate Sonic.

[@ShinMajin]

The avatar's pretty broken too. If you're touching the stick at all while landing from a jump, you take off at top speed. Makes precision platforming feel awful.

[@GoodlyData86596]

@@ShinMajin only if you have certain wispon variants equipped but yea that is a clunky part of their controls

[@Voltricity435]

i thought avatar was the worse controlling character, like honestly i'd rather play classic sonic in forces

[@bitwize]

Green Hill's looking more like Bland Hill right now.

[@toonman5099]

7:53 - 8:06 Funny thing is, they did. It's just that the version of the physics here is the grandchild version of them. Because it's a slightly edited version of Lost World's physics (which were made for Mario Galaxy-esque tube level design which is why the side scrolling sections were so jank), and the physics from IT were an altered version of Generations'.

[@d.e5964]

Before shadow generations released, i hated the new hedgehog engine, why fix what isn’t broken? I’ve changed my mind now but lord it was so bad for a while

[@Second_UNIT]

The worst part of people saying shit like "At least its not 06!" Is the incredible irony of the fact that 06's level design is actually really fun, its just everything else causing problems. Forces is just terribly designed from a map/gameplay perspective AND its story is offensively bad. But at *least* it isnt Colors

[@AdamWright-t7w]

Colors is actually great tho

[@ZancralthePariah]

I’m so excited to see what your review for this mini series’ finale, featuring the best opening week selling sonic game since the genesis console, sonic frontiers

[@roby4504]

12:27 ”Do people really hate 2D Modern Sonic THAT much that they'd rather hold a button to win?” Adventure 1, 2, Heroes and 06: Am I a joke to you? (Those games also have Modern Sonic)

[@anga156u1]

A lot of valid points but I do think Forces deserve to be looked in a different mentality, everything you mention holds true but I think where Forces shine is its Arcade's like speedrun. A lot of the footage you shown have you missing out on all the clever skips you could accomplish, the game even punish for relying so much on the boost when you don't have too, like those sections in Metropolis when you fall off the stage despite that you can actually make the turn perfectly if you slow down a bit. Or how the double jump is not meant to vertical reach, its meant for horizontal reach, and you can save so much time by doing so, like the lower path of Luminous Forest became a lot more rewarding if you instead of jumping over the platforms, use the boost to impulsive yourself and use the double boost to skip the platforms and bottomless pits, you can also do this double jump to jump over the steps of Egg Gate without slowing down. And you can in fact skip a lot of the automation, like that rail cinematic in the city stage, you can literally jump over it and land safety in the next part of the level, saving a lot of time, you can do the same thing in the spyral rails of Metropolis. The game is less boost to win and more never slow down at all, keep a rhyme where you never slow down and make each replay of the level have a shorter time scored which the game despite giving out S ranks like candy, it rewards you with more costumes for you character by replaying the levels and breaking your own and the leaderboards time records. Does this mean Forces is actually this "hidden gem only a person with a IQ of 300 understand"? no lol, but I do believe it has more merit than given credit, and I do think what I described is the design philosophy and not just incompetence, we see how in Frontiers having the same devs show they are truly capable of making a full 3D area filled of many objective and alternative paths but the Cyberspace levels follow this exact "never stop" game design philosophy, they even changed the near perfect controls of the Open Zone to something more like Forces in the Cyberspace levels because this "bad controls" actually compliment the design, even Sonic's weird acceleration in Forces become non-existing if you never actually stop and instead keep going faster and faster. That's my opinion on the design of Forces' levels, nice video BTW.

[@psyduck8025]

It just hurts how right they got it from the start with Unleashed. To this day those are still my favorite boost stages. How they thought this was acceptable is insane.

[@Couldntfindaname111]

To be fair with forces level design, there are ALOT of linear moments in unleashed, generations and colours. The problem was that they REUSED stage parts, made them boring as fuck and WAY too much automation. THAT, is the problem, not linear or whatever the fuck. I mean seriously, red gate bridge, sunset heights AND avenue park were supposed to be ONE big stage. A long stage, with a boss fight, man that wouldve be cool.

[@MegaGlassguy]

When it comes to the "hate 2D" discourse, I think a lot of it has to do with how it's often used as a crutch to avoid making actual 3D level design. Sonic Colors for example is constantly praised as one of the best 3D games yet 90% of its runtime is 2D platforming and the rest is linear 3D corridors. And Generations, while its level design is still fantastic, made the inclusion of 2D platforming in modern levels redundant with the introduction of a character that fully plays in that 2D plane. In a way, it was a missed opportunity to make more 3D platforming. And this trend seems to have persisted outside of the boost games with both Lost World and Boom relying on 2D whenever it is time for harder platforming challenges. It's easy to forget but we haven't had a fully 3D Sonic game since 06, and as such some would not agree that 3D Sonic has been fixed since it uses 2D to make it work. Not that there's anything wrong with an hybrid but that's the main argument I've seen on the matter. In the end, good level design is good level design, but I can understand that for some it feels weird to call these games 3D Sonic when so much of their runtime is spent in the 2D plane.

[@LordArikado]

When it comes to Sonic Colors' level design, its excuse for being mostly 2D with a few linear 3D hallways is that it was designed to be played on a single Wiimote with just the D-pad for movement. I know that raises the question of WHY they would design it that way when every Wii came with a Nunchuck, but if you're going to give yourself that handicap, you need to design every facet of gameplay with that limited control scheme in mind, and challenging, fast-paced 3D sections don't work well when you only have eight directions of movement and no analog control.

[@MegaGlassguy]

@@LordArikado I understand the restrictions and why the game was designed that way, and I even think the level design is well deserved of its praise (most of the time), however it still doesn't change the point that it's often referred to as a 3D game when it is much more of a 2D game with occasional 3D moments. It is almost as inappropriate as if one was to call Sonic Mania a 3D game because of its special stages.

[@Pinkio]

the best part of Sonic Forces is that the Double Boost is funny

[@timebubble8421]

There is so much more wrong with this game too. Like the story is so increadibly awful. The most important stuff isn't even shown

[@charlieflight6124]

Day 25 of Novidember. Almost finished with the month. Lovely. Don't really have any opinions since I haven't played this game

[@flarestorm9417]

So, regarding some comments in the video. 7:55 "Couldn't they have used Sonic's physics from Sonic Generations?" 1. Based on the datamined game content, Forces was built off of the physics and mechanics of Sonic Lost World. I haven't looked at the data myself, but apparently there are references to parkour, which Lost World had but Generations and Unleashed did not. It should also be noted that Lost World had three main set speeds (walking, running, spin dashing), which were switched between using dedicated buttons. To my understanding, Forces effectively took a run button-based system and tried to make it a momentum-based run system, which as you can see didn't work. I don't know why they built Forces off of Lost World, but it explains the awful physics in Forces. 9:41 "Some of the worst 3D level design I've seen." 2. Despite the game coming from "the same teams that made Colors and Generations", the game only had 3 level designers, and only one of them was a veteran. Even then, said veteran worked on Sonic Lost World, which had a different gameplay style. Coupled together with the short, presumably rushed development cycle you can see how the game's stages turned out the way they did. This also highlights an issue with the boost style stages when not given proper time. They're high detail, but you move past said detail incredibly fast, so if there isn't enough time and level geometry to account for that you get a Sonic Forces.

[@HikaruBaskerville]

This is refreshing to watch! Legit, this is refreshing! As a Sonic fan for years, I can agree that this is easily the worst game we’ve gotten out of any of them, and I genuinely don’t understand how. They had the time to iron it out, they had the team I’d IMAGINE, yet this is what we got. I can’t in good faith defend this game in the least.

[@FlamingGrenade]

this game requires less player input than minecraft story mode

[@Keanine]

Ready for an encore? Sonic Forces: Overclocked is amazing, and is receiving an update on the 28th!

[@colingbro3706]

Just started playing this game for the first time and I am way past irritated at how shitty the shadow levels are designed. Especially the third one. Holy shit.

[@silversjunkpile]

I NEVER KNEW about the branching path at the end of Lost Valley, I was just boosting all the time lmao 😂

[@Schnort]

12:46 I'm glad that you chose this glitch out of the hundreds to show off. It's one of my favorites.

[@Celestial_Rose_Luna]

Not to mention that the final boss is a complete copy and paste of the final boss from sonic colors. No creativity whatsoever

[@verguco6051]

you know game is bad when i get all s ranks on my first run, only have to repeat some classic sonis stages, i beat the game in two days, but to be fair i played all doy for two days, very few games make me do that, and i wasnt bored at all

[@julianx2rl]

Lost Valley? Why is it lost? Who lost it? Is it because a bunch of the green is gone? Is that what they mean?

[@rickjames5998]

Sonic forces sonic feels stiff and his jumps are weird and homing attack chains slow your momentum too much. Sonic Frontiers sorta had that issue. Shadow generations isnt exactly sonic generations but its feels much better.

[@nickziegler1904]

I think you should analyze the level design in the game Spark the Electric Jester 3. It's honestly so good it's like the peaks of Generations but most of the time

[@ElectricPeaPlayz]

when i played forces, i honestly found myself barely concerned about dying considering rings were literally ANYWHERE you looked, the only times i did die was just falling

[@FirithPanda]

At least the Rookie levels are OKAY. Very well paced when Rookie is on his own.

[@jacksoncaswell2.0]

7:56 they couldn’t because forces was running off of a different engine than generations

[@Eiichiro_Oda_Real]

Your normal voice kinda sounds like Sonic…nice!

[@tonutboi5945]

Holy shit Im glad we have shadow generations

[@ChaosAngels16]

I shit you not, after I clicked on this video I tried to full screen it; but ended up accidentally pressing forward to the end as you said "Sonic Forces." Given the title and the comedic timing, I laughed my ass off for a good 7 mins before starting the video over again. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@davidmcgill1000]

Truly a game made for people who claimed Sonic was always about holding right and going fast... while ignoring all the platforming and skill shots that allowed you to go fast.

[@MarioMastar]

Yeah I think what makes Forces so much WORSE than it should be, is the fact that it had a TON of potential and just didn't really meet it. Sonic 06 may be considered the worst game, but that's mostly due to technical reasons and a rushed released date and had it been finished, it probably would've been one of the BEST Sonic games of all time (the potential is there, they just needed to "finish" it). but Forces.... is like Sonic 06 if they deliberately intended the slow glitchy version as the final product (and if they were to remove the score system and just make it based on time alone, something I really dislike about modern Sonic games). Though one thing I will say, IF they saved the avatar for Sonic Frontiers, THAT would've been peak. Avatar and the wispon system FEELS like it needed to be used in a more open world game or level design so you were encouraged to use the powers to explore, but in the game, the stages are so painfully short, the wispon powers feel more like the difference between using scissors, the fold and tear, or using an Xacto Knife to cut a sheet of paper. You're just choosing how you want to beat the level, but it doesn't change the goal. and despite being obvious.... I just need to add to the mount everest sized pile of notes from fans saying "Classic.....didn't need to be in the game...at all." The Classic gameplay was so bad... you can't even pretend it has something to offer and his role in the story didn't really add to anything except Tails constantly being confused to why there's two Sonic's again and Sonic at least confirming that Generations DID cause a time split (and the neat though unnecessary nod to Mania and the Encore story that ended up feeling like a detour more than continuity. XD) I normally want to be as constructive as possible, after all I ENJOYED Sonic 06 after playing it and will defend it to the end, it had potential and for what they did do, it was a fun experience, good level design, good goals, just janky gameplay that was the result of lack of polish due to time restraints, but all could be fixed as Project 06 showed. But Sonic Forces needed to be remade from the ground up, Take the concept and slap it over Frontiers. Then rebuild all the locations in full 3D open world akin to Frontiers and LET THE AVATAR COOK. That's what Forces needed to be. But shoutouts to Generations for giving Sunset Heights a second chance....AND shoutouts to the mobile game that is still good fun.

[@Bushman26]

I’m not even gonna lie. Sonic 06 failed because of segas bullshit. (Sega decided to split the team for 06 so half of them worked on 06 and the other half worked on sonic and the secret ring)

[@glowdonk]

Forces is everything that is caused by playing too safe with your IP You create the most nothingburger, noncreative, , lacking entry into the series that would have caused the death of the franchise if it weren't for the next entry being a killer hit

[@phoggypsych]

Another thing to note is that none of these stages have a memorable level design. It's interesting that, when playing Frontiers, I could tell the level design of City Escape or Sky Rail even if the level only had the basic stage layout without the same design. Now, most of the stages are just "boost forward" or "jump on platforms."

[@roguesgallery7]

Are you going to do a video on Sonic Frontiers? I enjoyed the boost series and your play by play of the levels and their different pathways. I would be interested to see a comparison between the "open world" element of the game and the old 3d levels or at least how they differ.

[@JT_Toons]

Cyberspace sucks open zone is the best parts of the game

[@AdamWright-t7w]

@@JT_Toons I actually have the opposite opinion!

[@SaddieMoon]

7:13 Network Terminal is the best level in this game. It’s got the most fun paths and platforming and it’s pretty challenging to enter one of the two tubes in the 2D section. Even if it leads to a worse path than the slower one. I would say Network Terminal has a pretty cool shortcut at the left side in the beginning. It’s easily missable, but it helped made that 3D section more enjoyable.

[@TheStormsChannel]

The 2D section does have one of the most creative uses of the slide, in many places you can slide under the steps in the ground for either a shortcut or even an entire new route.

[@Hugelag]

I'm surprised you didn't talk about the Classic Sonic levels, because holy cow, they are complete dog water. They _brutalized_ Classic Sonic. Going from Mania to Forces was like going from Super Mario World to Hotel Mario. It feels *awful.* And the level design... It's just bad. He should've been cut entirely. Maybe if they didn't have to also make levels for him, they would've had time to refine the boost and avatar gameplay.

[@Ergeniz]

Unleashed is the only 3D Sonic to do 2D stages well. Classic Sonic doesn't even feel like the older games, but people seem to excuse Generations flaws because of nostalgia googles.

[@dubhog]

Mortar canyon is just kinda good because it's fun to speedrun and nothing else

[@hotcocoabomb_]

I found myself nodding my head and agreeing with everything in this video,, and yet i still like this game because I played it when i was like 9. Sometimes nostalgia really blinds people lol.

[@MrRobosquad]

I've been playing Forces--actually my first Boost game--and having a good time. BUT--I'm going for all S Ranks, time missions, and collectables as I go through. That takes the bite-sized stages and makes them fun little movement and boost-management puzzles. A lot of the time requirements are tight and satisfying to hit. The base game without them is indeed...nothing. But I honestly feel like the challenge incentives need to be part of the basic experience, and it makes itself fairly fun with them.

[@tanukismokingweed]

Do this for Unleashed instead and you will see exactly what makes Forces so bad in this regard.

[@diodora2381]

I remember playing the first stage of Sonic Forces, thinking, "Well that was worthless, never playing that again.", and then I proceeded to put down the game and never touch it again. You can see some semblance of a game in Sonic '06 even if it is a complete mess. Sonic forces is worse than all of that because it's just nothing. It's literally a nothing burger of a game, worthless in nearly all respects. It's an insult how Sonic Generations was so good and released years ago. Yet they can't even live up to that level of quality. I question wtf goes on in Sonic Team that they make such horrible decisions. Sonic Lost World -> Sonic Boom -> Sonic Forces. Just dud after dud after dud. It's so frustrating that they finally found a formula that worked in Sonic Generations, but then they threw all of that in the garbage can for these shitty, gimmicky games. It makes me genuinely mad in a sense because it's one thing to experiment and try new things. It's a whole other thing to just throw away all your work in perfecting 3D sonic to just have more gimmicks, drastic shifts in playstyles, and just plain laziness. I don't want an Open Zone game, I want a Sonic game. Try your hand at an open world sonic game when you can consistently make good 3D sonic games. Usually you shake up a formula when it gets old. Sonic team will shake up a formula just because. Even if they can't do it properly. It makes sense that forces was terrible. Their last two games were Sonic Lost World and Sonic Boom. Were they even familiar enough with good 3D Sonic level design? Hell no. I'm beyond disappointed how they built up a formula that worked in Unleashed, Colors, and Generations. They could've used what they learned from working on those three games to make a masterpiece. But no, we get Sonic Lost World, Sonic Boom, and Sonic Forces. Being a Sonic Fan is frustrating because again and again, Sonic goes in the wrong direction. We know that Sonic works in 3D and in 2D. Sonic has some of my favorite platformers. So why does it constantly get mistreated. Why is it that Mario can keep evolving and improving while Sonic has to always flounder. I don't think I'll ever truly understand why Sonic Team does what they do. But I can say I'm extremely dissapointed.

[@lpfan4491]

1: Boom was not made by Sonic Team. Sega ruined it, but it has nothing to do with the mainline-devteam. 2: They made Frontiers because people would have torn them apart if they made another game with the boost stages as a focus, even if it was twice as good as Gens. 3: Forces is quite similar to Colors in design and ideas. I think both games suck, but even if one thinks Colors was good, it built up to Forces. It especially didn't build up to Gens, because Gens was in development before Colors was and the Colors-content in Gens is the worst part of the dang game. 4: Lost World came out after they made 4 very destinct Boost games(Unleashed, Unwiished, Colors, Gens), with only Black Knight to break that streak and that barely counts. If they just kept going, that would have infact made the Boost Formula stale and LW wasn't even the worst thing ever from a gameplay-perspective, it was a decent way to shake it up for a second, considering how Colors already had its mario inspiration printed on its shirt, just reskinned to be legally destinct.

[@clydu91]

How the fuck did they go from this to Shadow Generations

[@AdamWright-t7w]

include Frontier in there as well. I dont know how they released 2 mediocre games(Forces and Frontiers) before Shadow Gens well... i DO know the reason, but its still sad.

[@jmcfar03]

time and resources

[@AdamWright-t7w]

@@jmcfar03 this

[@bucket9486]

different people developed shadow gens afaik

[@BananaHoovyJ.Rabbit]

Because Sega learns from its mistakes

[@Terminal_Apotos]

You should check out Sonic Forces Re-imagined mod and the Classic Sonic improvement mod

[@SparkTFS]

I think the fact that they focused so much on the Avatar and it's stages probably was also a big detriment to the game. Instead of putting their resources on the Sonic experience, they decided AGAIN to expend most of their resources on a new, side experience instead of the core of what people used to expect from Sonic games. I appreciate how Sonic Team apparently always tries to bring new things to the table, be it new mechanics or main gimmicks. But I think that their/Sega's lack of focus and vision for what is accomplishable on their small budget and time constraints most of the benefit those ideas could bring, as they mostly seem to hinder the core of the experience, instead of aggregating more value to it.

[@fazdingo29]

Sonic 06 was better than this game. At least in that game, i felt like i was controlling sonic

[@ibitejawbreakers61]

I hated Sonic Forces.... until I tried to time attack it

[@heresplitatom9945]

turns out several level designers from unleashed to generations left sonic team pre lost world + forces, some of which went to nintendo make mario kart 8's tracks

[@PhirePhlame]

There's supposedly hints in the physics that Forces uses a rework of the _Lost World_ engine, of all possible things.

[@EccentricSandal]

As a die-hard Sonic fan, I legitimately think this is one of the worst games Ive ever played in general. False marketing, really weird music compositions, AWFUL level design and physics, classic Sonic even being in the game at all, horrible writing and flanderization of once-good characters, etc. This game is FAR from being good, let alone mediocre. At least with werehog I can actually play the game and learn reaction based combos for a better reward and use the mechanics to my advantage for quick traversal. At least when playing with other characters in 06 and SA1 and SA2, I can enjoy learning speedruns or the thrill of finding the emeralds quickly. Forces has none of that because the game is designed in a way where it literally doesnt let you do anything because of how automated it is (and any tricks you CAN pull off are so unsatisfactory because of how short the levels are in the first place) I think Sonic fans only call Forces mediocre instead of bad because it was the only Sonic game in the last like 13 years to feature the other side characters as heavily as they were in Forces. Sonic fans have a tendency to try and excuse or mitigate any legitimate issues in new Sonic games if the game presents itself somewhat decently. Even Frontiers had this issue, and that game still ended up being 7/10 across the board from most players and critics. Sonic fans need to draw a line in the sand at some point because I think it actively encourages SEGA to think they don't need to give Sonic Team more time, money, and a bigger development team. Its leading to such incredibly low-budget experiences (like Forces) or games that feel incredibly unfinished in several areas of the game (like Frontiers) But if you ask me, the only thing Forces is consistent at is being downright terrible.

[@Captain_Ginny]

Modern sonic's levels are so bad people are beating luminous forest with one hand just by boosting and jumping not even moving

[@Pixeel_XIII]

I used my brother's PS plus free trial to play Sonic Forces for free, even got the platinum trophy. As for the game itself, I have no strong feeling towards it. Don't like it, don't hate it. Truly a game of all time.

[@matrixmaster9616]

At least someone doesn’t hate it, but you’re not wrong to be neutral about it. Metropolis looks a little fleshed out, but Mystic Jungle is amazing and The Chemical Plant’s glow up is underrated.

[@konradomorelo6819]

It always baffles me how a game that seems to put so much emphasis on the spectacle instead of the level design has worse spectacle than let's say Generations. There you had Eggrobos breaking windows in Sky Sanctuary, Cop Speeders chasing you down the skyscraper and breaking into pillars, giant robo fish that wants to eat you, Eggman blimp that follows you through the level until you make it crash it into a clock tower or the Tornado in Crisis City. Sure, most of these were reused from games the levels originated from but they were still refined and nicely combined gameplay and spectacle. Unleashed and Colors did it great as well! But Forces? You're only running in the straight line be it 3D or 2D, there is no dynamic camera, no cinematic gameplay, from time to time there is something in the background or everything is just a QTE that is completely separated from level design. I just can't comprehend how a game can be so bland despite having such a great premise.

[@AniGaAG]

Ah yes, that thing where people praised Mortar Canyon because "it's all 3D, iT mUsT bE gOoD!!!". Where 2D sections became such a _trendy_ thing to complain about without any sense or reason, just not having any was enough to call a stage good. (And the 2D sections 100 % had their purpose in Generations and Unleashed.)