MAF Method vs. Zone 2 Training | Comparing low heart rate training methods.

[@jk0000079]

4:40 - Maybe I misunderstood something, but for "zone 2" calculation, the "60-70% of max HR" is supposed to be "HRmin + 0.6~0.7*(HRmax-HRmin)". So if your HRmax is 188, your HRmin maybe 45, then your "zone 2" would be "45+0.6~0.7*(188-45)" = 131 ~ 145. So not really "that far off" from your MAF range of 138 ~ 148.

[@_adela]

You are, indeed, correct and the video is basically just meaningless yapping. There is a reason they call it MAF training not MATH training, am I right? Gottem!

[@gatesv1326]

That’s right. You need to factor in the RHR (resting heart rate) and MHR (maximum heart rate) to calculate the HRR (heart rate reserve): ((MHR - RHR) x 0.6) + RHR = Zone 2 minimum bpm

[@bultvidxxxix9973]

You seem to be correct, but that must be a very common misconception. Even my Polar App calculates the zones in exactly the same way. Max HR by age and then percentages from that. And given that the Polar H10 is considered the gold standard in terms of measuring HR, I had no reason to doubt that.

[@gatesv1326]

@@bultvidxxxix9973Yes, it is common. But it’s just another way of calculating it. Garmin also does it this way. But to me, the Heart Rate Reserve seem like the best method.

[@Avianthro]

Maffetone's formula was meant to be a sort of rule-of-thumb and was designed, with age considerations, so that it would err on the safe side...make sure you stay at low aerobic intensity. Zone 2 is a more precise (if of course you can accurately determine max HR) way of determining what heart rate will keep you in low intensity. (You might say that the uncertainty in determining HR max for Zone 2 training is why the safer-sure thing is just to follow Maffetone's formula.) The goal of both is just that: to keep the majority (80% or so) of your training at low intensity. Note too that Maffetone did not really intend for us to be using the HR monitor all the time, but only as a biofeedback unit we could use to help us get a feel for what's low intensity for each of us. For me, it seems simple enough, no need for the gizmo, to just use perceived level of effort from the start, but I guess that some of us may learn better by using a gizmo. The goal of MAF if you express it in San Millan terms is to train the fat-burning system in our mitochondria. Low intensity aerobic activity uses mostly fat as fuel. If we train that system thoroughly, requires a longer time than training the sugar fuel, glycolitic system), we than have a higher base on which we can achieve higher power. At high intensity, we are using all three of our power systems in the mitochondria: fat, sugar, and lactate. Train the fat-burning system first as it requires the greatest time to train, and then our high-end performance will also be higher.

[@maetsuen]

This is simple. I got it. Thank you.

[@kingelvis5502]

Damn...thank you, really.

[@Avianthro]

@@kingelvis5502 You're welcome...Best of luck with your training!

[@adamj2683]

RPE is unreliable for staying in your MAF zone. Especially for beginners but for anyone really. HR fluctuates during a single activity and also fluctuates due to stress/sleep/weather/hydration/training load etc, even though your RPE may be the same. Wearing HR monitor is a great way to do MAF with consistency all year round.

[@Avianthro]

@@adamj2683 Agreed, but I'm just reluctant to buy and rely on another techno gizmo in my life, and so I do my best with RPE and I do think that using RPE is the best way to develop your own innate sense of how you are doing, your ability to "read" your own body. True, the HR monitor can help in that process too, but I think it was really meant to be just an initial learning aid in Maffetone's method...to give you some feedback to ehlp develop your ability to read your body.

[@Systematic_Speaking]

Thanks for explaining the difference, it's a really good video. I've been focusing on running for about 6 months now and only started MAF training in the last 4 weeks. By setting my watch face to HR and keeping below 148 I doubled from 5km to 10km almost instantly. It's helped recovery time and I can now run 3-5 times a week instead of wrecking myself with a pair of accidental tempo 5km runs a week.

[@wouter2624]

Whats your max hr?

[@jimmartin8579]

Same story here! Never thought I could run so far - I actually have capacity for long distance now albeit not very fast - 6.30min/k at this stage

[@st4331]

At 59, MAF says my HR range should be 111-121. Using a zone 2 calculator based on my max and resting HR (168 & 45), the range is 123-134. I find that breathing through my nose is a good indicator, as this keeps my HR within the zone 2 range, maintains a very comfortable pace, and suggests zone 2 is a better range to use.

[@gerrysecure5874]

Actually your zone2 is more like 105-125. Take 55%-75% of your HR reserve to threshold (~0.9x123) and add resting HR. So basic MAF meets Z2 nicely.

[@st4331]

@@gerrysecure5874 The Karvonen method for calculating zones is much better as it uses resting and max heart rates. Interestingly, this week, my Garmin app/watch said my max HR has increased and it changed all my zones automatically, increasing Z2 to 123-134. I hadn't expected this as I thought Garmin used standard zones just based on age.

[@millerliu4638]

I just started Zone 2 and have to slow down from time to time, although I use nasal breathing. I hope I will not need to look at watch during running after 2-3 months. :)

[@MurphyKristovsky]

If I remember correctly Dr. Maffetone said in an interview that older athletes might be better off in Zone 2 than 180 minus age.

[@lisashiela9137]

I have been doing zone II since May, of this year. I have doubled my training time/miles in the process as I can recover somewhat faster. My biggest problem was my pride. I was used to passing others on the trail but in zone II I was getting passed, yikes@!

[@johnnykilo4967]

Yes! Definitely had to check my ego at the door.

[@FilmMyRun]

It’s races where it matters. If someone passes you on the trail, they get home and check Strava. Then they check your PB/PR times and realise that although they passed you on the trail you are way faster than them in races. You can sleep easy tonight.

[@vivianayoung7437]

I think because body used to zone 2..and stays there…body get comfortable

[@JackBegotti]

doing 7' at km. i'm soooo slow

[@deksuci9867]

Apa latihan terbaik untuk menurunkan heart rate bagi pemula ? Ketika berlatih MAF training itu sangat membosankan, pelari pemula bisa berjalan atau jalan cepat dengan pace 10 -7 dengan durasi ± 5 jam berminggu Apakah gerakan kecil aerobik bisa membantu ? Dengan menjaga tetap di zona 2 , seperti naik dan turun tangga dan menjaga durasi latihan

[@AntsNeo]

I was 56 when I started my MAF training in August last year. Right off with a mile of running every second morning at 04:45 AM, a bit hilly with 256 m of climbing, so walked the steepest climbs. Time about 2h15min ro 2h30min. Entered my first Backyard Ultra, but ruined my knee after 5 hours of pain. Born without menisculus. Started running again in March. Now I do my MAF almost every day 10 km to office and 10 km home. I take my time, about 1h10min to 1h30min. A great start and great end of day! As I'm still injured, I will continue this for one month and then add 20% running in hilly terrain (missing that!), The MAF is my daily commute. Yes, I run barefoot shoes and real barefoot once a week summertime. I can do one hour on rough surface. I hate it so much, to be back loving it the next week. Run or Die!

[@wandelpassiert8064]

It took me quite a while but today I had my first real zone 2 run. Try to breathe deeply as this is the secret to keep the HR down provided that your heart rate is at max 70% of the max HR. So I managed to run a 6:50 min/k pace with a HR of about 115 bpm. Breathing deeply fully relaxes the body and the entire energy system is then based on fat buring. It is like meditation with one leg on the ground. Magic once it works. Enjoy!

[@goodyeoman4534]

The numbers just don't work for me. 60-70% of my max HR would be 126 bpm. Even on the lightest jog my HR will be at 150 bpm, so I'd have to be jogging as slow as a snail to get to even 130-140.

[@reformed_attempt_1]

honestly I've never heard of anyone using 60-70% of max HR as zone 2. For me it's 67-77% which means I can put in 100+km a week in this zone without being fatigued

[@goodyeoman4534]

@@reformed_attempt_1 Really? Every video I've seen mentions max HR as a means of calculating Zone 2.

[@MrTravisbickle74]

Try for just one week to run/walk in order to stay below 130, increasing the time of your training. It's unbelievable the results you'll get for your aerobic capacity. In few weeks you'll be able to run longer and longer keeping your HR quite low. It's frustrating at the beginning but absolutely worth it

[@goodyeoman4534]

@@MrTravisbickle74 Since writing this I did do a few weeks of exclusively slow runs - jogs would be the more accurate term. First session was super annoying coz my HR alarm just constantly beeped as I hit 70%. But after the first week it settled down nicely. I have gone from 6:10/km pace in week 1 to about 5:30/km pace now so it has really stabilised my base cardio.

[@goodyeoman4534]

@@MrTravisbickle74 P.s there is no chance of my HR going below 130 on a jog. My max HR is about 195, so I aim for about 140-145 as my max when doing a base run.

[@FL-ii6ff]

This is just what I needed. I can not run in zone 2 but can run under 154 (MAF). I gave up about 6 months ago Bc I could not stay in zone 2 without jogging for extremely little amount of time then walking. Like you said my walking only get so high so I have to have spurts of jogging in there. I’m getting back into running and going to do MAF until I’m in better cardio health to do true zone 2. Thank you

[@AverageRunningPT]

You are welcome!

[@lucu01]

you need to spend more time in zone 2 just walking. Some people take 6-8 months till they manage a FM below a set bpm, there's a few channels on yt that have talked about this

[@copperdan7667]

I just started zone 2 training. I have been running for 2 1/2 years straight so I have a huge base. I run between 25 and 60 miles per week depending on my marathon training block. I am 50 but I got my max heartrate to 175 this past summer. My zone 2 is 112 - 122. The good news is I am able to run and keep my heartrate in zone 2. it is terribly slow running. 11:21 per mile average on a 5 mile run but it is a place to start.

[@copperdan7667]

Sorry 105 - 122.

[@Beardyoldsalt]

​@@copperdan7667You could probably raise it about 10 bpm. As long as you at a comfortable pace and able to complete full sentences your still in zone 2.

[@adonistandug7690]

finally, a detailed video about MAF VS Z2.

[@AverageRunningPT]

Glad I could help.

[@donniehuffman6014]

Thanks for clearing up the differences! I will continue with MAF!

[@michaelkrausz3292]

I'm so glad someone said zone 2 isn't good with new runners! I wasted 4 months last year slowly walking/barely jogging. Now I'm doing Run Walk Run, and I'm really enjoying running finally

[@AverageRunningPT]

I recommend walk/jog to many people just getting started with running! Keep up the good work!

[@chrismacaluso781]

I got out with my girlfriend to help her get started and we do walk run intervals. Much better for beginners rather than trying to run continously but keep HR in Z2

[@dragonchr15]

Yep. Walk/jog is the ticket for newer runners.

[@liamliosmyth]

Thanks. Very well explained, you’ve removed a lot of the confusion on the topic for me. I’ve just taken on the Low HR challenge and finding it very difficult to control. Patience is key as you say.

[@thatguygreg]

This is quite interesting. I've never really explored any other low HR method other than MAF but I've seen a lot of people doing Zone based training. For most of my 10 month MAF journey to date I couldn't imagine being able to actually run in what would be my zone 2 HR range. That would have required me to slow down so much, I probably would have given up to be honest. Back in March the entire country went into lock down (Spain). We weren't allowed to train outdoors for 2 months. I didn't want to let all the progress I'd made over the last six months go to waste so I decided to run in my basement. No treadmill, just running in what was the biggest space available to run: 9 to 12 paces wall to wall. I did this for an unhappy two months. During those basemnt runs it was impossible to get my HR up into my MAF range without basically doing line sprints from wall to wall so I just kept it nice and easy. Most of my runs finished with an average HR of around 105 bpm to 120 bpm which would be my zone 2. My MAF HR is 140. As soon as we were allowed to run outside again I noticed a considerable improvement in my MAF pace. I was quite surprised really but I was noticably quicker at my MAF HR than I was before the lock down, between 10-15 sec / km which is a big deal. Thinking about it now, this was probably due to the 2 months of zone 2 training. This morning I went on a very easy recovery run. Quads were shattered from some insane downhills on Saturday plus two very high volume >100km weeks. I kept it really easy, between MAF -20 and MAF -15 finishing with an average HR of 123 bpm which is around my zone 2 (about 25 secs /km slower than normal MAF pace). I was pretty happy I was able to run, albeit slowly, at such a low HR. That wouldn't have been possible a few months ago. Like you, my HR would just jump from the 60's into the 120's as soon as I started running. Something to consider. I may start adding a very low HR zone 2 recovery run every couple of weeks as and when needed. I truly believe the lower you can keep the HR the better so it makes sense to incorporate this into my training. I like your idea of 1 day anaerobic, one day zone 2 and the rest at MAF. Makes sense.

[@AverageRunningPT]

Running in the basement! That is dedication, but it definitely forces you to slow down!

[@olagustafsson5591]

If you have your calculation of Zone 2 and your MAF heart rate set correctly, they are the same! Both methods are created to keep you running UNDER your first lactate or ventilatory threshold. So if your upper Zone 2 doesn't correspond with your MAF heart rate, something is WRONG!

[@thatguygreg]

Correct, the calculation I used above was wrong.

[@olagustafsson5591]

@@thatguygreg I read what I just wrote, and it could seem tat I was upset in some way. That is not the case. But it frustrates me that there is so much confusion about how to properly train your aerobic capacity. Good luck with your training mate :)

[@thatguygreg]

@@olagustafsson5591 No worries man. Worth noting that my zone 2 HR has changed as my resting HR has lowered over the last few months. Resting HR is now at 45bpm so my zone 2 is actually a bit higher than my MAF. My MAF is 140 and my zone 2 is between 139 - 151. MAF Is actually 144 but I decided not to add the extra 5 bpm and just keep it at 140. Would be helpful if you could share what you use to calculate your HR zones. Maybe I'm not looking at the right info.

[@jeffgoucher6956]

Thanks mate, one of the most balanced and logical discussions I've heard on this. Your experience resonates a lot with my own struggles.

[@dc2090]

feels like there are so many zone 2's out there; 60-70% of mHR, jack daniel's says 65-79% for "easy running", MAF=180-Age

[@alejandranapoli3309]

I started with MAF training 7 weeks ago. I normally have a high heart rate, even when I'm standing still. I find your video and all the comments very useful, since I am concerned that this method won't work for me. I can see now that I have a long way ahead, and I'd better enjoy the ride if I want to improve my running and keep running all my life. I'm turning 49 next friday and want to prepare my first marathon (and enjoy it) for my 50s. Thanks for your video!

[@AverageRunningPT]

Thank you so much for you comment! MAF can seem like a grind at times, but I can assure you that the results will be worth it when you toe that line for the marathon. Good luck and thanks for watching the channel!

[@vielka503]

What a great analysis of what happens when we start MAF and that heat rate will be low for the walk and high for the jog but SO elusive of that targeted zone!!

[@lytwaytLaz]

I'm 56. Whether I'd follow the maf or zone 2 I'd be walking. The formulas may be convenient, but at least for me they're totally off. The highest heart rate I measured recently was 193 and I still had more to give. I'm perfectly comfortable breathing through my nose and making conversation at 150bpm still only doing 7:15min/km. Pushing it a little, averaging 5:50min/km for a 5k run my average heart rate was 171. I do like the idea of running slow, but the formulas are of little help to me, for finding my optimal heart rate. You may think I have an overall too high heart rate, and should see a doctor, but my resting heart rate has been around 52 ever since I bought my first ever Garmin in May. I have also verified that the measurements are correct by other means. Thought I'd mention this for any other older guy who may wonder if there is something wrong with them, as I did initially 😊

[@toby9999]

My first thoughts is wow, such high heart rates for relative slow paces?

[@whitneyherriage908]

I’ve recently returned to running after a long layoff due to health issues. I started with a basic walk/run method based on time - run for one minute, walk for one minute, etc. - and I was getting faster and running longer. Since I discovered the Maffetone and zone 2 training methods, I have had to slow down and walk a lot more than I was, and it feels like I’m going backwards. I’ve decided to stick with the Maff Method, but it’s taking a lot on faith!

[@petermurphy2399]

I'm so happy finding this video. I'm 47 and ran as a teen then started again aged around 43. My max heart is the same as yours 190 ish and I have that same huge gap between a walk and a jog. When I started running again I was running too hard and always trying to go faster. I've got the problem that my maf number is 133 because of my age and that's impossible for me to run to too. I think I just need to go as slow as possible with walk breaks and stick to it. Great video and nice to see that problem covered👍

[@paulb4540]

Super helpful. I was so confused between the two. You really cleared things up. Thanks

[@60pluscrazy]

Same thing with me. I am 65. I am using Garmin calculated LTHR for my zone calculations. We need to ignore formulas and age. Just rely on LTHR.

[@AverageRunningPT]

While it may be more accurate, many average runners don't need their data to be that precise.

[@vicfefer]

MAF tends to fail for older runners like me. At 65, my MAF works out to be 115 which I would find pretty hard to run at. Zone 2 using HRR works out a lot better for me.

[@johngriffin3887]

At 70 mine is 110. My slow run comfort where running form is good, is 122-134.

[@johngriffin3887]

Using HRR method, I get 124-138 which fits with my low effort good form HR, 122-134

[@Ben-yw8be]

Sticking with MAF for a while. It has been working really well for me after 10+ years of no serious aerobic work.

[@ka1to2]

I started MAF training 6 month ago, and can't even run/jog... my walking heart rate was around 100 and when I start to jog at 7km/h like about 5-10 minutes, my heart rate spike up to 140+ and keep increasing if I didn't slow down. I was really frustrated back then, but I keep doing it.. walking and jogging interval.. and now I can jog at 8km/h with avg HR of 136 bpm..

[@AverageRunningPT]

Patience is so important here. Many people don't stick with it long enough to realize the results. Well done!

[@danielsepulveda912]

I started jogging 2 months ago @ 135 bpm feeling as fast as a turtle but last 2 weeks I just noticed I currently surpass most of the people that go to the same park for jogging, I realized how important is to build endurance in the muscles and the heart

[@yiyang5693]

Wow, that’s great to know! I just did MAF for the first time today, starting at 7km/hr, and then had to go down to 6.3, but I dint have to walk. Felt like I could run a marathon at this pace… I will stick to this training for 6 months as well and see if I can get back to 8km/hr at low HR. But I’ll do 1-2 tabata trainings per week, just to make sure that I still do high intensive workouts. Did you quit hard workouts altogether during MAF training?

[@chusete33]

One possible solution would be to use something like the ellyptical machine to get to that Zone 2. You can choose the exact point you need, because there's no jump between walking and running.

[@mckonal]

do you think maffetone would endorse that? it is different from running dynamics after all but might serve the purpose hr-wise

[@pehpengboonben5010]

Agree with you. Was using MAF as a platform to step down to Zone 2 recently. Both are beneficial to build cardio base.

[@AverageRunningPT]

For sure!

[@htmonaro1969]

The major problem with either method is they don't work beyond about 35 or 40. At 61, my MAF number is 119 or 124 (I've been running at a fairly high age group level for 7 years. The 180 - age is purely arbitrary, even the creator suggested this I use 205 - (age x 0.6), which gives me a max hr of 170. My MAF number then becomes 135, which allows me to run slowly, with an occasional walk, particularly on hills. Zone 2 would mean walking only. That's of no benefit to me at all. When I am in peak marathon/ultra fitness, I can run at around 5 to 5:10 per km for 30km with sn average hr of 135 to 140. Why would I want to limitbmy training to walking only?

[@AverageRunningPT]

I have never said that MAF is for all people. And I have learned a lot about HR training just since making this video. I believe that it is beneficial, but can certainly be more personalized.

[@alancraig3756]

There are some other ways that might work better for you. If you look up Hadd's "One Approach to Distance Running", he basically recommends using your actual max heart rate minus 50. There's also a recommended test if you don't know your max. My max is around 195 and any long run below 160 feels really easy. Hadd's method has me keeping it at or below 145, which is incredibly easy. The 80/20 program suggests using a percentage of your lactate threshold heart rate, which can improve with training. I think there's a lot of benefit to MAF and low heart rate training. But I also think the 180-age formula is pretty generic and doesn't fit everyone.

[@muzzamirakaironsloth1989]

Great way to explain. I've been a triathlete for the past 10 over years and have heard of freinds doing zone 2 and MAF. Guess there's alot of swap and mix ups with those 2. But I personally find it a challenge to run at Z2 of MAF. Until like 2 years ago when I got injured and still now struggling to get back the old pace and strength that I had. So trying now to re-learn old concepts again and trying best to do Z2 MAF but it ain't easy. Most times I realised I have to walk to achieve it. Sad but true

[@AverageRunningPT]

When I first started I had to slow down to 12 minutes per mile to stay in the MAF range. I am now easily keeping MAF range around 9:30 per mile (9:15 on good days). And yes...there was a lot of walking early on.

[@MrTravisbickle74]

Great video, thank you. I'm 50 and out of shape. By applying the maf training for just 3 weeks i was able to reduce my average hearth rate by five bpm and on every run i'm increasing the time in zone 2. So far i'm forced to do interval training: run 7 minutes and walk 1 minute for 1h and 1/2. I can run five times a week without feeling tired or sored. It's simply amazing the results you can get with this "simple" method.

[@sjusup]

HR training is deeply individual subject. I'm aged 45 and my max HR is 190 (just tested it few weeks ago) so zone 2 and MAF actually come to same thing for me. Tnx for sharing experience.

[@250txc]

This guy is pretty close with his advice .. Just do not run too hard when starting out ... Consistency over time is the key here.

[@dapapunaratra5185]

THIS all i need. great video. some ppl oversimplify zone 2 and zone 3 (known as MAF training), as identical training, which is actually not as you elaborated in this video. thank you!

[@dominikschrott7412]

On me it's pretty accurate. 180-40=140bpm minus 5 beats correction = MAF 135bpm In my latest laboratory lactate performance test came out that my AErobic threshold must be around 127-128. So then with my MAF number 135 I'd do the runs in the range of 125-135.

[@ankushkaul5092]

Finally someone gets me 😭 Have the exact same issue with Zone 2 training!

[@AverageRunningPT]

Hopefully I was able to help. Check out an updated way to calculate Zone 2 that may be a bit more accurate: kzbin.info/www/bejne/h5Woq3xpit2eoKc

[@jmcd9828]

As others have suggested this is incorrect. MAF and Z2 actually line up fairly well when Z2 is determined using the ‘working range’ of HR, that is, top end of Z2 = 70%(MaxHR-RestingHR). As both of these training ideas are aiming at the same goal (training the aerobic engine) it makes sense that the HR ranges should line up...and they do.

[@AverageRunningPT]

This video is a bit older and I have since learned a lot more about HR training. Thank you for your feedback.

[@dcdno_one2393]

How do you get a formula of 70% of MaxHR-RestingHR for the top end of Z2? Your calculation would give me 96bpm for the top of Z2 compared to MAF's 137? I don't think so. Walking quick is the top of my Z2 when I can run a 20 minute 5km at an average BPM of 177 - your formula makes no sense.

[@malcolmlklein]

The formula is 70%X(max-resting)+ resting. 0.7(188-55)+55= 148

[@darnell7071]

Thank you for explaining the differences in the two methods. I just started running about eight months ago and I found out I have no zone two just like you explained so I’m going to start using the MAF method until I can get my heart rate to lower.

[@danielamestanek7899]

thank you for mentioning that gap between fast walking and jogging. and that it, coincidentally or not, seems to fall in the zone 2 of not yet well conditioned runners. also, thank you for mentioning that it may and probably will take over a year to see the difference for us. much appreciated! subscribed!

[@AverageRunningPT]

Thank you so much! Good to have you on board.

[@lennoxtrey3109]

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[@lennoxtrey3109]

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[@lennoxtrey3109]

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[@mekhibeckett7847]

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[@docmartin4989]

My understanding (based on San Milan, arguably the guru of zone 2) is that “zone 2” training is not based on the zone 2 heart rate calculation. It is a physiological threshold definition that measures lactate in the blood at a value of 1.7-1.9. Absent such lab measures he recommends the conversation test. In zone 2 you should be able to hold a conversation fairly comfortably ie you can talk but you are exerting just enough effort that a listener on the phone would be able to tell that you are exercising. For most if not all people this will be above the zone 2 defined by heart rate. It’ll usually be closer to 80%. Another common approximation is being able to breathe through your nose only at a zone 2 exertion level. The bottom line: using heart rate zone 2 is not the same as “zone 2 training”. Your video and many of the comments are a case in point. Heart rate zone 2 does not work because it is too low.

[@NickyRoads]

I found what's really helping is tempo runs. I think this is helping to improve my v02 max which allows my heart stay a little lower for the zone 2

[@Zar4thustr4]

Absolutely agree - A long MAF block to start, then polarize: Zone 2 heart rate and high quality training of choice. At the beginning I can barely run with my MAF rate - Zone 2 would be impossible. (Even though as others have mentioned I use Karvonen as well to calc zone 2, hence there is less difference to MAF Heartrate for me)

[@PaulRamen]

According to attia, the upper threshold for Zone 2 as defined by "keeping lactate under 2" go from 75 to 85% of max HR depending on individuals fitness level.

[@Ashok_Regiment]

attia's zone 2 is different to the zone 2 discussed here ( I think). It's more akin to zone 3 in the current context

[@samgray7074]

For me, Zone 2 training and MAF training are ending up being pretty close to the same level. I'm 63 years old so MAF training puts me at about 180-63=117+5=122 (so 112-122) and my zone 2 range is 179*.6=107 and 179*.7=125 (so 107-125). To stay under 125 BPM, I end up running some and walking some. As you described, there is a heart rate zone that I jump over when I switch from walking to running, so I keep having to switch between the two. The good news is, I think my periods of running are getting a bit longer as the months go by. To keep things interesting, I mix in a threshold session about once every 2 weeks and some anerobic work at the end of some of my runs. Doing that, I’m able to keep my training load balanced IAW my Garmin app’s recommendations.

[@redgoat8447]

How do you know ur maximum heart rate is 179? If your age is 63 the maximum hr is somewhere at 156-157 i think.

[@samgray7074]

@@redgoat8447 I'm using my Garmin (Fenix 7) watch's calculation, which it is getting from my running history. Since I wrote that post I have been following the suggested workouts my Garmin is giving me and it has me running a lot faster. As a result, it has raised my MHR calculation up to 182 now. I think I was running too slow for too long because I’m improving a lot now. Garmin knows my age, but gives me a fitness age of 53, my resting HR is 45, and my (Garmin) VO2 Max is 42. Much more fun actually running!

[@hasi]

To build my aerobic based, I used Zone 2 (HRR) as my main training regime and MAF for recovery run.

[@AverageRunningPT]

Great!

[@riafitriana8906]

I just found your channel and realized, what have i done for the last 10 months of my running😂. Tomorrow im starting my low hr training, for the 1st time! Im taking my virgin 10k race next month, hope it is not too late to have this training. But really,this video helps me a lot, for knowing what method i can try for my training, thanks !😊

[@AverageRunningPT]

I would start this type of training earlier in a training block or try to use it in the taper. If you try to start it at the peak of your training it might just frustrate you.

[@ataufiql97]

Woww.. My curiosity about run at zone 2 had been answered after watching your video.. Thankss bro

[@Asthbendriel]

Thank you so much for this video. I am a mountain biker, but around 2 months ago, I started working with HR zones in order to improve my fitness and general well-being and after two months, I honestly was starting to question myself whether it was possible to run in zone 2 at all 😅 I have your exact same issue: walking takes me to the limit of zone 1, and running takes me out of zone 2. In my case I chose to keep with zone 2 training, and whereas it is still impossible for me to hold zone 2 while jogging, I have found after two months that I am spending more time in zone 2 in every workout, and the time I have spent less and less time in zone 3 because I passed zone 2 limit. In fact, I now have shorter and shorter times walking compared with the ones I had at the beginning and when I am walking the pace is faster without bumping my heart rate. What I am trying to say is even if you do zone 2 training when you are starting out, you will see progress, but it may take a lot more of time to do so, so your approach to combine the two and transition from one into another is simply such a great idea and put so much light into my thoughts.

[@AverageRunningPT]

Thank you so much for your thoughtful comment. I am glad the video was helpful for you! Keep working at it! Consistency is key!

[@bhatch]

I've liked a lot of your videos, but question: when you talk about "zone 2" in this video, what zoning system are you talking about? Having access to Training Peaks, which lets me calculate my HR zones according to several dozen different systems, most of them (including some of the more popular such as the Joe Friel method, Andy Coggan method, and 80/20 Running) have my Zone 2 (endurance zone) WAY above what the formula you're using here suggests, and those are in 7-zone systems. If you're just using a linear "start at 50%, each 10% above that is a zone until you reach 100%" calculation, is there any research that backs that up? Intuitively it doesn't seem to make any sense that nature would assign anything meaningful to 10% increments of your MHR. And from experience, I can hold 90% of my MHR, or "zone 5" in the linear system, for a very long time, but can't hold 98% of it for long at all, suggesting there's an important difference somewhere in there

[@AverageRunningPT]

That is why nobody uses the linear system. Because it is so ineffective at predicting anything. I just wanted to address it because it was used in the past. But yeah, research does not support it well.

[@78uttam]

Have been googling forever to know where this 10% increment is coming from, and here I bump into a comment on that. Someone wondered what I wondered.

[@phaphua2022]

Exactly. I can run my whole 5k in this Zone 5 (90%-100% MHR)

[@maevecrowley6107]

Thanks, I'm new and following an app which I guess is MAF, from the numbers, and this polarised training is new to me.

[@IsavanSchaick]

Super helpful information! I go for runs off and on and really want to take my game to a higher plan, and will definetly put your suggestions into action! Thanks a lot!

[@AnyaEightySeven]

I think this is why I made a ton of speed gains after a year of doing incline walking on the treadmill.

[@AverageRunningPT]

Yes! That and incline walking is a sneaky way to gain a lot of strength in a gentle way. Nice work!

[@trailsandbeers]

zone 2 should be rest hr + ((max hr - rest hr) * 70%)

[@wvu05]

If you want to try what you are referring to as Zone 2, the best way to do it is slow jogging where you take _very_ short steps, and that will keep you under. At this point (I'm mainly running to lose weight for now), I can stay in the slow jogging range with 11 minute miles. When I started, it took 14 or so. However, the ultimate goal is getting to Lydiard training this summer when I get back to something closer to racing weight.

[@kengriffo9657]

That's interesting. I have a high heart rate when I exercise, often leaving me wiped out after a run. So I've been trying to improve my aerobic base. But I have the exact opposite problem as you. I am 50, so my MAF is 130. My change from walk to jog shoots me up to about that max MAF rate, so it's hard to stay below. I determined my 80/20 Zone 2 using the LTHR test, i.e. by running fastest pace I could sustain for 30 mins. That got me 162, and Zone 2 is 81-90% of that. So my Zone 2 range is 131-146, a bit higher than MAF, but the high end seems too high -- I was previously running with HR around 145-150 and was feeling wiped out. So I will stick to my MAF runs for awhile to improve aerobic base before switching to 80/20 and using the low end of Zone 2 for the 80% of my training.

[@lahirichavali]

Thanks for the video. I can relate a lot to it. I started MAF training recently. A quick question - I run 4 times a week. Should all my runs be paced to stay in MAF range or should I have tempo runs and interval runs and hill runs as well?

[@reformed_attempt_1]

usually people include tempo/hills/intervals also, but some people recommend first doing a few weeks of MAF runs before starting higher intensity work

[@davidha4077]

Here is a better method for calculating zone. You will need to know your RHR though (resting heart rate) 220- age = MHR zone 2 (low) = (MHR - RHR)*0.60 + RHR zone 2 (hi) = (MHR - RHR)*0.70 + RHR so age = 42 and Resting Heart rate is 57 then Zone 2 is 130 - 142

[@AverageRunningPT]

Yes! One step ahead of you, my next video is going to be about the heart rate reserve formula.

[@nguyenanh6850]

Is this method the % of Heart Rate Reserve?

[@eliduran4182]

Garmin watch has this formula when setting your HR zone. I'm using this one at the moment. I decided to slow my pace by 1.5, running more easily most of my runs. Finger crossed it works!

[@olagustafsson5591]

No Heart Rate estimate should be based on AGE!!! That is proven tom be wrong at an individual level since a long time! You can be up to 15 beats off, when estimating by age!!! And, zone 2 is more like 75-78% of Max HR. 70% is a very moderate number to keep you SAFELY BELOW LT1 or the ventilatory threshold.

[@speedgliding]

This is 32 bpm higher than my MAF, which would be insane.

[@lisahuston9794]

This resonates with me so much. I'm currently experiencing the same thing. MAF is definitely more for me, but even then a lot of the time on an easy run my HR can exceed this zone but I still feel like I'm running relatively easy.

[@alecausley7712]

You’re supposed to use heart rate reserve (HRR) to calculate your zones and you’d see that zone 2 is much more practical. My MAF number and 70% HRR (limit of zone 2) are exactly the same using HRR

[@AverageRunningPT]

See next video please: kzbin.info/www/bejne/h5Woq3xpit2eoKc

[@ianwarner1429]

I've been doing MAF for about a year. Getting ready to run my first 100 miler at 58 I've transitioned to zone 2 for better pacing. It seems to work

[@johnnykilo4967]

How’d the 100 miler go?!

[@ianwarner1429]

@@johnnykilo4967 I DNFd at 40 miles. Went out to fast and it caught up to me. I must learn to pace myself better. I did set a 50K PB with 4000’ of vertical so I guess the training worked. Need more hills and climbing work.

[@johnnykilo4967]

@@ianwarner1429 All part of the journey. You’ll get there! It takes balls to even attempt a 100 miler 🤜🏻.

[@ramiroalda1702]

First time watching one of your videos. That was so well explained it just got you a new subscriber. Thanx.

[@Vibekehoby]

Tnx a lot for this, it gave new inspiration to my training, I will try out HR 2 after my long run day

[@mikeylikey2306]

Cheers man. Good video. I’m older than you so I feel like my maf and zone 2 are closer than yours - so it’s same same but different

[@kortfreedrish6710]

There is no difference between MAF and Zone 2 training if you are calculating your zone 2 off of your % of heart rate reserve

[@ThatRunningGuy]

MAF and Zone 2 running is great for injury prevention and consistent mileage👍

[@AverageRunningPT]

That’s the ultimate goal. Keep running injury free!

[@braddenty503]

Man this is sooo funny. I just commented on another of ur videos like 5 sec ago because I'm have the same issue as u were having. And once again I compared both of these programs. Personally I said Heck with it and just split the difference. Then I did the 10bpm bracket and programed that to be my zone 2 on my watch, the all I have to do is lock zone 2 and it will let me know when im low or high. Frees me up to concentrate alot more on "belly" breathing and form. Being prone to running injuries this helps alot.

[@AverageRunningPT]

awesome!

[@Dorsilator45]

Zone 2 for me is incline walking on a treadmill. I don't expect me to be able to do zone 2 training in a full jog/run for a while. Im still new to the running scene but I just did my first 10k and now I plan on expanding onto improving that time and improving my 5k as well.

[@zeta2007203945]

In Jack Daniels (et. al.), the EASY Running Pace Zone (page 52) is defined as 65%-79% of HRmax. If we assume HFmax(age) = 220 - age, then the upper limit of your Easy Zone is 79% * HFmax(age=32) = 0.79 * 188 = 148. This is exactly the same value as MAF = 180 - 32.

[@michaelgohner6031]

Thank you very much for this comparison! Very helpful to integrate MAF with similar training methods. Even better with your update! Keep on running (and telling)!

[@AverageRunningPT]

Will do...thanks.

[@EdwardVarner]

Idk if things have changed in 2 years, but all the calculators I have found, and all the Drs I watch talking ab this, calculate the heart rate for zone 2 at 70-80% of maximum. This basically gives me the exact same hr zone as MAF. Walking around my hilly neighborhood puts me over 130 so basically I could never run if I was using 60-70%. Thoughts?

[@ndecosson]

Great information for someone who is just starting out. Cheers!

[@processmyrun6559]

I usually eat my oatmeal breakfast watching Seth DeMoor, but today it will be you ;)

[@AverageRunningPT]

This is a huge compliment! Thank you for the support!

[@richardmiddleton7770]

It's best to do a lab lactate test if you're serious about it. This will show you where your LT1 and LT2 are, so your MAF or zone 2 training should be at or below that LT1 HR. For me, MAF is slightly too high for my LT1 (138 bpm vs. 130bpm).

[@MidwestGirl123]

I’m the opposite. If I calculate zones using the 80/20 or Karvonen methods, my MAF training level is substantially lower than zone 2. I’m thinking of switching to the Karvonen zones when I’ve finished all my virtual races this fall which will give me an additional 10 beats/minute. Jogging below my MAF max is frustratingly slow.

[@AverageRunningPT]

Fair enough!

[@samirrerizani7918]

Great explination. I really related to what you said.

[@AverageRunningPT]

Glad to hear it!

[@saltlakrids]

So sis I. Im exactly at that point where I completely miss zone 2 drøm walking to jogging

[@Mr._Du]

I use MAF because it's easy, and I think easy is best for most runners out there. Everyone seems to have their own way of calculating zone 2. Do you use HRR? How accurately do you know your max HR? 220-age? Is it 60-70%, or 65-75%, or something else? Do you need to know your lactate threshold? I get different ranges with each calculation, and no one seems to agree what's best MAF is simple. 180-35 gives me 145, and I subtract an extra 5 since I'm just getting back into regular running after like 4 years of being super inconsistent. I'll bump it up if I'm consistent for a while and happy with my progress. So 130-140 heart rate range works for me. If I ever decide to go pro (and I won't) I'll use a more scientific method.

[@dbestbc]

I’m not sure how my watch calculated my zone 2, but it is slightly higher than my MAF numbers. So, started with my watch’s zone 2 for first four months and I’m slowly transitioning to my MAF heart rate now.

[@Colt-ii4qn]

Very important video for me, provided many answers to questions I had to why my cardio training wasn’t going well. Thank you so much Sir 🫡

[@Unitedstatesian]

From all the research I have done... the key is lactate. If you are not in zone 2... then you are probably over the lactate threshold and those miles would be "junk" miles to purists. Even expert runners have to do run-walk to build an aerobic base with zone 2. Any exercise is better than nothing, but the point of zone 2 and lactate threshold is a long-term thing... to recover better, avoid injury and become more efficient in the long run. Do you test lactate to look for your true threshold?

[@chadliu86]

I recently started researching and started MAF training. I found a zone calculation method which kind of factor in your heart fitness that gives my zone 2 pretty close to my MAF heart rate. So instead of using (220-age) * 60% or 70% for your zone 2, which assumes everyone at the same age to have the same zone, you will need to find your heart rate reserve by using max heart rate - resting heart rate, and using 60-70% of the reserve to add to your resting heart rate for your zone 2. With this method my zone2 is only a couple of beats slower than my MAF rate (I added 5 beats on top since I have been running in the past few years non-stop).

[@franklehouillier8865]

Your two methods of calculating Zone 2 don't seem very comparable though. I think the idea of heart rate reserve makes sense but then I would calculate the percent that you should use would be much smaller like 50% rather than using the same percentage for both formulas. The point of the 65% max heart rate is that it is roughly the maximum point at which your body clears lactate as fast as it accumulates it. It would be nice to know if your formula is actually better at capturing that general notion.

[@AverageRunningPT]

What are you using as your max heart rate?

[@chadliu86]

Frank LeHouillier correct, I listed the two methods to show the difference. One gives a lower zone 2 rate than the other. I personally choose the one incorporates the heart rate reserve. What’s the reason you said one should use 50% instead of 60-70% of your reserve ?

[@chadliu86]

Average Running PT I use my highest heart rate during a recent interval workout and assume that’s my 95% max. I know that may not be the most accurate number. But no matter how I manipulate the number, truth is I am struggling to Stay below my MAF rate during a run.

[@AverageRunningPT]

Are you using a walk/jog approach? You might have to do that until the body is able to adapt. That is not a sign of weakness. You just haven’t asked your body to train in this way before. It has to figure it out slowly.

[@umaduro]

The best system that worked for me in getting my zones right for different disciplines (running, cycling) is based on my Lactate threshold (HR), based on Joe Friel. It gives the best estimates without real lab tests Whatever you have fun exercising

[@AverageRunningPT]

umaduro I have heard of this test, but have not tried it.

[@thailam]

yeah I have the same problem from the walk to the jog and had been trying to firgure out the best way to train, seems MAF is the suitable one

[@maisetas]

this is quite interesting topic for me.i have been doing sports for 10years with on and offs. been a long distance hiker for a while, i guess i have that aerobic system developed. but it wasnt as efficient until i started riding a bike. with bike i can achieve any heart rate without "skipping" even a single beat. iam 31 with max heart rate of 190. my maf method is like really really hard tempo run. if i ran most of the time in maf hr zone i would be injured pretty quickly. i usually run in avg of 130bpm and biking in about avg of 125bpm. so when i hear people calling maf method a low heart rate training it blows my mind.

[@nichole2757]

You look super healthy, I’d be willing to bet if you redid the HR zones using the heart rate reserve formula which would consider your (likely very low) resting heart rate, you’d find zone 2 is higher. My max HR is 184 and resting is 54, zone 2 for me is right in my maff zone (132-145)

[@AverageRunningPT]

I have learned a lot since making this video. I need to make an updated one.

This!

[@magnusdahlbacka2169]

Great video! I've lost my speed training in one zone all the time. Now, with more polarized training my speed is back up to where it was 20 years ago. I could run far or short before, but always only in one gear. If MAF means running in only one zone all the time, one needs to transition sometime to improve speed.

[@AverageRunningPT]

I always maintained one speed day per week... very important

[@bda2672]

Thanks for making this video to compare MAF to Zone 2. I’ve recently started Zone 2 and couldn’t make it work. I think MAF will be better for me to start with and then switch to zone 2 once my aerobic fitness level increases. Thanks

[@colinlancaster2196]

Really interesting explanation because you are talking 2 ways to calculate heart rate which are not personalised. I hadn't heard about jumping through Zone 2 which I found intriguing. The Maffetone number really does seem to work. The 220 minus age seems to work roughly for you but the 60 to 70 doesn't as you say these are just numbers that are divisible by 10. I would be interested to know your resting heart rate and compare Karvonen formula with 220 minus age and since this video is old how much fitter you have become. Ultimately I have found it is better to use experience and go by feel. Maf and Zone 2 are gentle, relaxed running where you can talk comfortably in full sentences. I always make better progress when i run naked!

[@MrTravisbickle74]

I read many comments that say: it's impossible to stay in zone 2! I will be forced to walk most of the time! I think they miss a very important point: you will be forced to walk AT THE BEGINNING. The more you apply this method, the more your aerobic function will increase, and the longer you'll be able to run at very low HR.

[@christiankolom9985]

Enjoyed the explanation and thought this was very helpful. After a Mar 2020 marathon, went down to 15 miles a week...lost a great deal of my aerobic base and felt MAF was a great way to get it back and stay injury free. Thanks

[@AverageRunningPT]

Absolutely!

[@communicationiskey-]

Excellent video! Why mix and match MAF and Zone 2 instead of just saying, jog within Zone 2 and Zone 3 until you are in better shape to be able to run and focus more in Zone 2 ?

[@paulparrish9693]

Consider reading Dr tanaka, Slow Jogging. Jog at walking speed or where you can hold conversation while running. put away your heart rate monitor and try listening to your body.

[@AverageRunningPT]

Completely agree! But for those who have practiced "no pain, no gain" all their life, they have a hard time knowing what conversational pace is.

[@seemain50]

@@AverageRunningPT This is so true. The HR monitor also keeps me honest and helps me put my ego away. Otherwise I speed up whenever someone passes me.

[@AverageRunningPT]

Campbell Mayne the competitive spirits gets the better of us sometime.

[@joseramos86]

I think if you calculate your Zone 2 using HRR (Heart Rate Reserver), you will find it's closer to the MAF number.

[@rzafira22]

I´m 60 years and have been running for the last 12 years. I have been using the MAF-method for the last five years, and have been able to set PR on 5k, and have been free of injuries at the same time. Now i am looking at zone-2 training, which in my case is a higher heartrate than the MAF. My max-HR is 177, which give me a zone-2 around 128-138 bpm, an my MAF is 180-60=120 bpm. So in my case zone-2 is 8-18 bpm higher, and the opposite scenario to the video.

[@cca7382]

To add another point on this interesting discussion; personally I have taken lately to incline walking (steep, long inclines) as a way to train in zone 2. I also have been in zone 3 a lot, which does take more of a toll on my legs. Incline walking allows a more gentle cardio and builds strength

[@processmyrun6559]

To add on the different methods of calculating zone 2: on top of % of max HR or HR reserve, you can estimate it based on your Lactate Threshold HR (this is offered by example by Garmin). I like this method because it adapt to your level of fitness - the fitter, the higher the LT HR and thus zone 2 range

[@AverageRunningPT]

More than one way to skin a cat!

[@adamj2683]

@@AverageRunningPT Not really. Zone 2 based on Max HR is way different than Zone 2 based on HR Reserve. I believe basing it on HRR is WAYYY more accurate than just based on Max HR.

[@Emasmim]

I just wanna say that for aerobic base training, one really have to be very very patience.... for me both method works... but to see any real results where one can go into being able to maintain a speed of sub 5min/km for 42km, it took me 1 year of aerobic base training with at least 90km per week, following with proper speed training to bring the legs up to speed...

[@AverageRunningPT]

I agree. I think there has to be a certain amount of volume, and it MUST be supplemented with runs that get the legs moving faster.

[@ajaykhajuria1927]

Thanks very much. Till now I was wondering to know the both training methods. You have elaborated nicely. Keep it up. Thanks again

[@AverageRunningPT]

Thanks.

[@aaronstone9947]

Thanks, I have been curious about this topic. I have been swimming or riding the bike to maintain zone 2. This allows me to stay in zone 2 to build the base. It has helped close the gap between walking (zone 1) and jogging (zone 3). I am better able to jog in continuously in zone 2 now. I spend most of my time exercising in zone 2 (swim, bike, run) with a weekly session at zone 4/5. Additionally, I am beginning to target specific runs at MAF and zone 3 now.

[@jshepard5840]

I'm the same as you. Walking doesn't raise my heart rate high enough, but a slow jog jumps it up too high for zone 2. And yes, a lot of that has to do with fitness (I'm a cyclist, not a runner. Just beginning my running), but some of it also has to do with living in Florida. It's so hot the majority of the year that it's tough to keep your heart rate down in the heat and humidity. For every one degree your body temperature rises, your heart rate goes up 10 bpm. So for now, I'm just using pacing to build the different zones.

[@AverageRunningPT]

I feel you here in Florida. It was tough over the Summer, but right now is a good time to start working on it while it is a bit cooler.

[@jshepard5840]

@@AverageRunningPT Which is why I started a month and a half ago. The wife and I do (or were before COVID) about four or five sprint tris a year, and the running portion has always killed my times, so I'm really focusing on that now. Thanks again for the tips!