Making a Switch for Floating Neutral/Bonded Neutral for Portable Generator

[@scottwaynewootton731]

I was looking for a video just on how to disassemble this predator inverter panel. I don’t need to know why or should I bond or not bond that is a common knowledge. The answer I was looking for was at 5:18 in your video.

[@timbarker4189]

Nice mod! Way fancier than what I did which was to just disconnect neutral from ground on generator and then made a neutral/ground bond plug that I just plug into one of the receptacles. The plug has jumper from ground to neutral. I may be incorrect but I believe the plug then creates the neutral/ground bond for when you want it. The switch is a good idea though.

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

Glad you liked it. It's not too much more to add the switch 😀

[@tomschmidt381]

That was also my approach. Figured if I was using it isolated so I bought a 30A 120/240V twist lock plug. Hung it off the genie frame and added a caution label that the genie neutral and ground are not connected.

[@GoferZeroSix]

Very thorough explanation and install. I have the new Predator 13000 so it's very similar except I need a 50 amp switch. I'm gonna install the switch behind the outside panel so it can't be easily flicked by little kids with curious hands or accidently doing it myself.

[@allencar5212]

Good video. You are correct in using a switch rated for the output of the generator is very important so that it is not overloaded during a fault. My generator would need a >38A switch. I tried a 120V 15A bonding plug for stand-alone power after I disconnected the generator neutral-ground bond; but I got GFCI faults. My guess is the faults were caused because it was bonded on a single leg of the 120V system and the GFCI on the other leg "sensed" a problem. I also worried about the 15 amp rating of the plug. I had a spare 50Amp 240V 14-50P plug. I converted it into a bonding plug with #6 wire and removed the 2 hot blades of the plug so the internals of the plug are not even energized. This bonding plug occupies the 50A receptacle that I use to power the house; so it MUST be disconnected (eliminating the generator bond) when I connect to the house wiring which is bonded at the main disconnect. That big yellow plug is also a great reminder that the generator should not be run without it except when connected to the house. I don't have any 240V tools so I am not limiting my stand-alone power options; and I still have the 30A 240 receptacle available for future use.

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

Glad you like the video :)

[@jeffmcclain]

Hum...something is not right on your GFCI fault with bonding plug. There are no "legs" to a neutral. It should be common to both of the split legs of 240v, and using the 240V socket should be no different than using the 120V neutral...unless you are plugging the neutral bonding plug INTO a GFCI plug...then that makes sense and you should NOT do. Either way, I do like your thought on using a dummy 240v since that frees up the 120v plug, which is likely primarily what you are using when operating floating (unless you are powering an RV via the 240v).

[@allencar5212]

@@jeffmcclain Both of the 120V dual receptacles are GFCI's; so you guess was correct. I did not know why but I know that GFCI's are very senitive and the 240V plug solved the problem.

[@jeffmcclain]

@@allencar5212 ah...mine has non-gfci outlets too, but that makes more sense (and why your 240v works as my 120v do). Certainly do not want to ground neutral through GFCI circuit.

[@natebazar8846]

I know this has been around for a while, but this is a MUCH easier option than trying to wire a switch, etc. If I want the generator portable, leave in the 50A bond plug and use the 30A twist lock if I really need 240v. WAY less work too. If I ziptie the extra plug to the frame, I shouldn't lose it when running in backup mode. This is the best 'Why didn't I think of that' method for this! It also has the bonus of not voiding warranties by modifying anything in the gen-set.

[@johnle1465]

awsome and thank for sharing your knowledge. I'm planning to get the Inverter Predator 8750 to pair with mine Predator 9500 during the storm to power up the whole house.

[@johnwalker6121]

Not an electrician but my understanding is as follows; If you using a generator to power house circuits, bonded vs floating neutral depends on the method used to connect the generator to the home's circuits. By code neutral must be bonded to ground at the first point of disconnect i.e. your main home panel (some rare cases it can be bonded in the meter case). That is why all properly installed sub-panels are installed with floating neutral (neutral bar & ground bar separated). 1. If you are directly back feeding a home through a breaker into the main panel with the main breaker shut off. Then you would need to change the generator to a floating neutral. Since the main panel as first point of disconnect will have all neutrals & grounds bonded by code. In this scenario you are moving the main point of disconnect from moved from your home primary panel to the generator. 2. If your using a dedicated transfer switch where the circuits being powered have been relocated from the main panel to the transfer switch then a bonded neutral in the generator is correct (usual default). Since the generator is now the first point of disconnect for those circuits. One needs to verify that the transfer switch's ground & neutral bars are separate and there is no connection between the neutral bar and transfer switch case (which should be if installed properly since in normal use it's actually functioning as a sub-panel). If your unsure how your home panel or transfer switch is wired you should consider consulting an electrician.

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

Thank you for the detailed explanation. :)

[@LarryKoncelik]

Hey you seem to know much about this stuff. My concern: If I'm using the 50 amp twist lock receptical on the gen to plug a welder into- I'm assuming I should keep it as the same fashion (bonded) that you set up your 120 outlet. As well in contrast, I'd keep the same fashion you did for home use (floating) for the same 240v plug. In your skit, you called your 120 receptical for (remote use) bonded and your 30 amp plug home use (floating) Mine would be a 50 amp per say a Honda 10k watt. 50 amp receptical would be used to power the house or, out in the field powering tools and a welder. Basically I'm thinking the switched setup would be the same thing you got. Only Both my 120s and my 240 ALL would be all either bonded or ALL floating depending upon switch position. Please confirm Thanks

[@weeeves]

If that switch fails in the open position (happens more often than you would think with those cheap Chinese made switches), you won't know it has failed and it will be stuck in floating neutral which would pose a safety issue if using the outlets on the generator. The proper way to switch between bonded and floating neutral is to disconnect the ground wire from the neutral wire which would turn the generator into a floating neutral. Whenever you need to have a bonded neutral, install a neutral-ground bonding plug in one of the 120v outlets. You won't ever have to worry about a switch failing.

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

Absolutely right about the switch. I'd argue that is the case for any garbage products though, regardless of where it's made. But honestly, considering how simple switches are, I'd worry less about failure and more about if it can even handle the current it's rated for. Point is, do your research, find a reputable brand, but that like anything, components fail. That's the point of maintenance.

[@aholmes6612]

I may sound stupid to a lot of people, but me and the safety of my family is most important so instead of doing all of these modifications I'd just buy a bonded generator and a second that is floationg. Actually, I did. I have one for home backup power the other I keep in my truck for emergency situations.

[@AlexV-pf3io]

Plug with shorted neutral and ground terminals inserted into one of those generator’s receptacle works much better for this purpose

[@youcanthide004]

SUPER SUPER IMPORTANT & VALUABLE INFO!!!⚡💥😜

[@abktll9393]

Thanks for sharing. Do you know if there is some technical reason and inverter generator needs the bonded neutral. I had an GenerLink - interlock- installed and it does not switch the neutral, so it requires a floating neutral generator. I know how to float the neutral and have done it with a non- inverter - open frame generator. I am not certain if an inverter type of generator will be missing something in the circuitry if it is switched to a bonded neutral. Thanks

[@scottwaynewootton731]

I was looking for a video just on how to disassemble this predator inverter panel. I don’t need to know why or should I bond or not bond that is a common knowledge.

[@Sowhat-u6f]

Auto supply store for AC parts? 30 amp switch 12-14v DC vs 120v AC? I'm not so sure about that. Also it'll be nice to put some insulation around the spades at that switch. The exposed metal blades are ¼" apart.

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

That is a ground wire. Should there be a short, few even if you had a 120v switch, the short would exceed 120v by far and 30 amps by far. It would also be such a small amount of time, due to the breaker tripping, that there would likely be no damage to the switch. Regarding the spade switch, it's perfectly acceptable to not insulate them. Just look in your furnace or A/C, which uses 240 volts.

[@AlexV-pf3io]

How did you remove that panel on this generator? It is impossible unless to remove throttle cable, right? But I could remove that bond in very limited space and access.

[@ThruDaLenz]

that switch is a 12v switch and the generator is a 120/ 240v... would that be an issue for the switch or generator?

[@dj5752]

An FYI to all interested. I have learned that the toggle switch you must use for this project is a 30a/240v switch. A simple on/off switch. I found this switch made by Eaton. Part# 7576K2. Cost was $13.68

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

5:45 I list the Amp rating for the switch. With house electrical anything over 20 amps is 240v.

[@caroleemoreno8086]

I need a 50 amp switch. Any idea where I can find one? Eaton doesn’t make them bigger than 30 amp that I can see.

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

@@caroleemoreno8086 Amazon, Jegs, O'Reillys all had results for 50 Amp switches.

[@caroleemoreno8086]

@@BigBrotherIsTooBigrated for AC??? All I saw was DC.

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

@@caroleemoreno8086 DC switches will work with AC current, but AC switches shouldn't be used with DC unless they are specifically rated to do so. Check out this forum post for more detailed explanation. electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/424959/ac-rocker-switch-on-a-dc-circuit As always, if you're not sure, be safe, hire an electrician.

[@martinibanez1279]

Thinking about doing something similar. Im a little worried about the current at the switch, I have an 11kW generator and if there was a fault I would think the current through that switch would be huge. Is that a correct assessment? Thanks

[@josephalberta1145]

The question of when to bond neutral and ground and when not to plagued me on my motorhome. My power goes from the generator into a panel. The two hots from the 240 are broken down into 2 50 amp circuits. They go to the sub panel that feeds all my outlets. The mail panel is bonded and the sub panel does not bond the neutral and ground. I was told to not bond the generator to the bus frame but instead to bond the neutral from the generator to the frame. I am not sure if the neutral and ground are bonded in the generator. So far everything worked well for the past four years. It seems you are saying the generator should not have the neutral and ground bonded when the panel has them bonded.

[@Soprano0913]

when using portable generator and interlock for panel breaker in my home the GFCI receptacles are blinking red and not working. Is that cause portable generator is bonded rather than floating neutral?

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

That's a tough question to answer without more details. Are you referring to the GFCI in your home or the generator?

[@Soprano0913]

@@BigBrotherIsTooBig thank you for your prompt reply. Sorry. To clarify all the gfci outlets in the home are the issue.

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

@@Soprano0913 I assume your generator is bonded, which shouldn't cause that issue. The only thing a bonded generator will cause is some current being able to flow on the ground wire that runs from the generator to the house. If you're having issues with your GFCI, I'd look at breakers on them, then their wiring, then the wiring for the through plug.

[@paulserafin6730]

@Soprano0913 You are most likely correct it you're tying into your main panel. It is b/c the generators neutral is bonded to ground & the GFCI senses a wiring problem, which is a ground loop. Using an interlock kit means your you are directly tying into your electrical panel which also has the neutral bonded to ground. You cannot have both the house & generator neutral bonded to ground. This creates a potentially dangerous situation. Watch this video, specifically around the 2 minute mark. kzbin.info/www/bejne/invcZ2eMlNhsf7c. He speaks about transfer switches where it is possible to switch the neutral but w/ an interlock kit this isn't possible. Unless you remove the neutral to ground bar from your electrical panel, which I don't recommend. Here's another short video on how to correctly backfeed a main breaker panel w/ interlock kit. kzbin.info/www/bejne/kKCsiGObhahjl80

[@Soprano0913]

@paulserafin6730 hey bro thank you so much for replying with such great info and sharing the videos to clarify things. You're the greatest. So grateful for your assistance. So I do have the same Westinghouse Generator. I will remove the Bones neutral jumper, label it, and no need for grounding rod I see right?

[@timwolter4987]

That switch is a 12 Volt DC. 30 amp is very different in AC. Golf carts have it for headlights after the inverter.

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

@timwolter4987 DC switches will work with AC current, but AC switches shouldn't be used with DC unless they are specifically rated to do so. Check out this forum post for more detailed explanation. electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/424959/ac-rocker-switch-on-a-dc-circuit As always, if you're not sure, be safe, hire an electrician.

[@timwolter4987]

30 amp DC is like 10 amp AC. The bonding wire on my generator is 12 gauge. Take apart that switch. It is a toy. The video is awesome the switch is not. Safety first

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

@@timwolter4987 Agreed safety first. I could be mistaken, what's your source for the conversion?

[@timwolter4987]

Common sense. 30 amp ac is 10 gauge wire. That switch is a toaster. I have one.

[@kirbymurdstone4925]

@@BigBrotherIsTooBig The problem is not AC vs DC, the issue with that switch is that it is not rated for the fault current that it may have to conduct. The current rating for the switch should be as large as the breaker size, slightly bigger is even better. If the switch is to small, an a fault condition the switch will melt and open up before the breaker trips. For this generator I would put a 40 amp switch, (or a 20 amp 2 pole switch with the poles paralleled). Also I would not use spade connectors on a generator, too much vibration. ring eyes and a switch with screws is a better way to go.

[@dj5752]

Nice video. Thank you. Just so I'm clear. You snipped the wire that is connected to the generator that made the bond. Then you placed 2 connectors onto the snipped wire and placed them to each side of the switch. So, 1 wire cut, bare ends, got the connectors, and then connected to each side of the switch. Correct? Thanks.

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

I snipped the neutral that ran to the ground wire then, spliced both ends into the swtich.

[@dj5752]

Thanks

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

No problem 😉

[@allegory7638]

What if the generator itself has a ground fault while connected to house and using a floating neutral on the gen. , what protection has a person if they touch it? Does the generator have some type of built-in GFI in that case?

[@projectswithjw]

While connected to the house, it will be bonded through the power cord.

[@kenlutter2065]

Will your 120 plugs work when your switch is floating when running the generator thru your panel box.

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

Technically, yes. Whether or not it's safe depends on the wiring of your generator and junction of the switch. To test, wiith the generator off and plugged into your home, put your generator in floating neutral. Then using a multimeter, test ground to neutral on your generator's 120v receptacle. You should have continuity.

[@aholmes6612]

@@BigBrotherIsTooBig a bonding plug will fix that issue

[@tylerglass329]

Just bought this same model the other day and mine is 100% not bonded there. Think they’ve changed the wiring back to just behind receptacles on the front

[@TheWhatNotShow]

what if im do both? i run 1 50 amp into breaker box but also run the 30 amp directly to central ac?

[@Idahoprepper71]

You need a neutral switching transfer box. So your generator will be bonded and the transfer switch will disconnect neutral from house.

[@raymcdonald731]

Where did you get the switch from

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

From Autozone

[@Toolie716]

@@BigBrotherIsTooBigcan you post the link? I can’t find it on Autozones website

[@jefffrayer8238]

1st of all, even though I don't fully understand all you are talking about I'm certain you're right. For 35+ years I have used 120 and 220 V. gens to back feed the house to keep warm and water running on the farm without any damage to well, furnace, livestock or people. I first shut off main breaker and anything I don't want powered such as electric water heater before putting gen on line. Never got a poke from anything such as gen, sink, fridge, stove or fried any electronics. Get killed by touching gen? How? Standing barefoot in a mud puddle and grab ahold of gen with both hands? How stupid but that simply preserves the gene pool same as someone with a pet rattlesnake. Gen or not if I'm unsure something is hot including my cattle fence I quickly touch with the back of my fingers or grab the Multi-Meter. So far my Predator 3,500 Invertor keeps my farm house warm or cool, runs chest freezer, fridge, sump pump, T.V. and several lights with power to spare without a " grounding plug " but nice to know if I have problems running my camper. This video explains potential dangers perfectly and shows how to install your switch correctly or the need for a Neutral /Grounding Bonding Plug. Thanks for the informative and interesting video that people should know.

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

Glad you liked the video. Your question how the generator frame can kill you, it's not that if the neutral ground bond incorrect you will absolutely die. But, its wrong AND there is a short, the energy that would go through the ground now has no place to go so the frame of the generator will have a charge. Keep in mind this will happen only if there is a floating neutral AND if there is a short.

[@no1but24]

I use my generator as a home backup 240 volts 30 amps, only used it twice with no problem bonded neutral, Just got a new generator that i haven't used yet Genmax GM9000iED that is also bonded neutral, can you explain why having 2 bonded neutrals is bad? meaning the house and generator?

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

Imagine if you have the ground and neutral connected at two points and there is a discharge of energy through the ground wire. The energy goes through the ground into the subpanel where it is connected to the neutral. Since your ground and neutral are bonded at the subpanel, now that energy can travel through the ground AND neutrals that come before the subpanel. This creates a dangerous situation where energy is flowing on the wrong wire.

[@n5syr01]

Only one bonding point is allowed and legal. And that should be located at the first main disconnect. Majority of homes in the US, that is at the main panel in the home. However, some homes, mine included, have a main (200 amp) disconnect located outside the home at the meter, and that is the main disconnect, and the breaker panel inside the home is treated as a sub panel.

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

@@n5syr01 Well said. This is another reason to have a switch to run the generator as floating neutral.

[@allencar5212]

I also have a Genmax GM9000iED (converted to Natural Gas and gasoline) and used the 50Amp 240V 14-50 receptacle to insert the bonded plug after disconnecting the generator neutral bonding. Like many things dealing with electrical wiring; there probably wont be a problem until a device fails or shorts out. Then you can electrocute someone. Follow the NEC! Javier Rivera has a very good step-by-step video on disconnecting the bonded neutral on a GM9000iED.

[@no1but24]

@@allencar5212 I’ve watched Javier’s review that’s an older model, mine was different. it’s not on that spot anymore they moved it over on far right GFI, just removed the neutral off the ground wire and retighten the screw, and rapped electrical tape around neutral wire connector and tucked away, it’s now floating neutral.

[@ChaJ67]

It seems like generators really should come with a switch like this. You could need the generator in either mode. The way it is done by default you really need to do your homework to get it right. But as you state, the recommended use could be easily explained so that most people use their generator safely as opposed to now where most are probably using their generator unsafely and have no idea because nothing was told to them in the manual and no provisions were made by the generator brand label or manufacturer for that matter.

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

Probably a liability issue. Having a generator bonded when it should be floating is much safer than having a generator floating when it should be bonded. If there is a switch and someone puts it in floating when it should be bonded and someone dies there would be a lawsuit.

[@ChaJ67]

@@BigBrotherIsTooBig The generator I picked up simply didn't say what it was and the brand label had no idea when I asked, so when I tested, it showed up as floating neutral. I have looked around at these newer small generators and most say floating neutral. So this is the less safe state. I was thinking seeing this seems to be the trend out of China and I am finding the brand label doesn't even know what is going on and there are no instructions in the manual about this, there are a whole pile of generators out there now where people are plugging in extension cords and have no idea they are using it in an unsafe manner. So seeing this is what I am seeing, wouldn't it be better to have a switch with some instructions on proper use?

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

@@ChaJ67 Yes, this would make your generator safer provided you have the switch in the correct mode for it's usage. However, most generators have a place you can bond a ground rod. Regardless if it does or not you could install a switch, ground it to a ground rod or make it a bonded generator. If you are using the receptacles you need to have it bonded.

[@ChaJ67]

@@BigBrotherIsTooBig I suppose the understanding I have about a ground rod to generator is it serves a different purpose than bonded neutral to ground. You can tell me if I am wrong, but I see ground rod as more to do with dissipating a grid lightening strike. Say you have a surge protector, it dumps to ground, which goes to Earth ground. For electronics having a common ground reference voltage for electrically tied together devices is imoortant. Say you have an Ethernet cable going between a network switch and a PC in another room, it is probably best to have those two devices to have the same ground reference voltage as the Ethernet cable has conductors in it. Ground neutral bonding allows a short to say the grounded case of your power tool to return to source, popping the breaker on say your generator, thus clearing the fault. If the bond is not there, say only tied to a grounding stake, you still have things energized that are not supposed to be because you have no path back to the source and thus no way to clear the fault. Another way to put it is I don't see a grounding stake making the situation safe, only a ground-neutral bond. In addition, I think is is a good idea to share ground with all of your connected devices, at least if they have conductors going between them. Once a single ground neutral bond is in place, then I think a single Earth ground is helpful to cover all use cases.

[@norsk54472]

thank you, nice project

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

Glad you liked it 😀

[@allabouthim03]

Just purchased one of these new yesterday. They didn't put a N on one of the neutral wires😂, just my luck😢

[@allabouthim03]

Got her done!! Once I pulled back the insulation I found the "N" 4" from the connector.

[@BOB12349307]

if you bond it you really should have a ground wire going to a ground rod. if the gfi doesn;t trip the whole generator will be electrified

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

Most generators come bonded from the factory.

[@KevinCoop1]

I happen to disagree with what you are doing. #1. That generator will not put out enough amps for a ground fault to trip the circuit breaker magnetically. #2. If there is a ground fault, then the GFCI will be the part that clears the fault. #3. The only time you need to bond the neutral and ground is when it is connected to an RV or a Boat. Can you imagine all the law suits if you were correct for generator manufacturers building them wrong and people getting shocked? I’m pretty sure they are building them correctly.

[@aholmes6612]

The issue is some are bonded and some are floating. The safest thing to do is wire an inlet box...they are safe for bonded, then have a transfer switch at the panel. Just know what type generator is being used then have the proper box installed....most open frame generators have a floating neutral (wire in a transfer switch) the newer inverter generators tend to be bonded (wire in an inlet box) simple, safe and easy solution.

[@BOB12349307]

honestly their not. half the generators made are not even bonded.

[@aholmes6612]

@@BOB12349307 the new inverter style is becoming more popular and they tend to be bonded to the frame.

[@AlissaGrieves]

Everything I have read including my Westinghouse user manual says you need to go to floating neutral if hooking into your panel ASSUMING that is bonded neutral to ground. If not, you are not following code because your system has 2 places bonded to ground.

[@KevinCoop1]

@ You are spot on correct. Where you do need to bond a neutral to ground in a generator, in a structure (home or commercial or industrial) is IF you have a transfer switch that switches all hots and the neutral. Then you must bond the generator ground and neutral. Another place where you must bond them is connecting a generator to an RV, or a boat. They are not bonded within as when you plug into shore power or run an onboard generator or portable generator, then it is a sub-panel and must be bonded at the gen.

[@ronaldwoofer5024]

Such an important safety feature should not be a little switch you can flick on and off. This should be a Key switch or a latch, but not a little button you can flick on and off...

[@SRCardow1]

👌

[@BigBrotherIsTooBig]

👍

[@martinibanez1279]

Thinking about doing something similar. Im a little worried about the current at the switch, I have an 11kW generator and if there was a fault I would think the current through that switch would be huge. Is that a correct assessment? Thanks