Malice, or the Establishment? | Michael Malice | EP 176

Michael Malice is a New York City-based author, podcaster, columnist, and media personality. He is a champion and proponent of free speech, anarchy, and many other non-mainstream ideals.
Find more of Michael Malice on Twitter @michaelmalice, on his KZbin Channel Michael Malice, and check out his books
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast can be found at www.jordanbpeterson.com/podcast/
[00:00] Intro
[0:18] Jordan introduces this episode's guest Michael Malice, an online personality and author with a quick wit and sharp sometimes abrasive sense of humor.
[2:00] Jordan selects Michael's book the New Right, and specifically 4chan, as the discussion starter for the show
[5:30] Discussing the changing nature and cost of voicing one's true opinion to the world
[9:30] The specific type of testing "trolling" of established authoritative institutions. Michael admits that everyone makes mistakes from time to time even the media, but it's how you handle the mistake (covering it up or admitting to the error) that makes the distinction in how he views media institutions
[12:30] Malice outlines the specifics of 4chan for those who may not be familiar with the platform.
[17:00] What about 4chan made it such a hospitable place for the New Right as Michael calls them. Michael defines what he views "trolling" to be.
[21:30] Jordan comments that the extreme contempt he sees coming from the Left for average working-class people and to some degree the downtrodden of society. Michael explains how he thinks Trump was able to win these people over when they felt abandoned by the democratic party
[32:00] Jordan digs into memes, looking at examples from his own experience being meme'd many times
[40:30] Legacy media is burning out so what is next? Examining the positives and drawbacks of the network TV format.
[52:00] Talking about Michael’s more anarchical views of America contrasted with Jordans hesitations to complete fragmentation and separation of the two more dichotomous types of individuals in western society, being the conservative and the liberal.
[1:00:00] Playing "games" cooperating with different viewpoints to keep the country functioning
[1:05:30] Micheal describes his estimate of who the elite are. Jordan plays the role of a defender of the patriarchy to counter. Michael outlines one of his core premises that he doesn't want others to tell him what he should inherently value.
[1:20:30] The two debaters circle back to the engaging aspects of podcast format
[1:25:30] Jordan revisits and tries to sum up where he feels Michaels distaste for established powers stems from.
[1:29:30] Malice asks Jordan if he has engaged on 4chan. Michael continues to make his point that structure and corruption can not be separated from institutions. Both comment on giving people the encouragement to be a better version of themself to strive towards
[1:36:20] Michael’s issue with the deification of the intellectual class in all aspects. Jordan gives his assessment of his time at Harvard and the people there, in the '90s at least. They continue exploring differing views on inherent corruption in politics.
[1:51:00] The marriage of truth and humor, Malice gives an example from his book Dear Reader: The North Korea Book. Looking at the satire in the movie The Death of Stalin
[2:03:00] Jordan responds on the importance of staying on the right side of funny
[2:09:00] Wrapping up the show, one last question from Michael
Visit www.jordanbpeterson.com to view more information about Jordan, his books, lectures, social media, blog posts, and more.
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[@brightonkazembe6838]

Jordan's audience is far diverse than what people may claim. I have a large group of friends down here in Africa that revere the man. His principles transcend culture.

[@RealtyWebDesigners]

Amen

[@Sargent.Pierce]

The smartest man on the planet.

[@chris432t6]

That is nice to hear.

[@paulohyp]

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@cl5193]

Truth does that.

[@eramz56]

"The greatest thing that I got from Harvard was never again having to respect a person with a Harvard degree." -Thomas Sowell

[@kaiserironcladchad582]

Seems better to respect someone for their integrity rather than for their titles.

[@migorpan2051]

@@kaiserironcladchad582 integrity builds people up while deception tears them down.

[@taylorc2542]

Everything that Malice talks about could and should be directed at his own (unmentionable) people, yet he always dances around the elephant in the room. Could at least one of them go off script?

[@eramz56]

@@taylorc2542 The Russians, indeed.

[@patrik79a]

That can't really be a quote? Can it?

[@johnforeman634]

I listen to Dr Peterson so often that “it isn’t obvious” has crept into my regular speech.

[@yCherkashin]

This comes from scientific vernacular. Oh, sorry. I mean he talks like is expected in the circles where he learned. "Talks like a book", to quote HPMoR. When I don't watch it, it drives people nuts. It compels them to brainy, right.

[@yCherkashin]

@S L I will give you that it is persuasive. But the literal meaning of such a phrase is "I see no compelling proof, and some evidence to the contrary". And such it is not obvious that it is purely a persuasion tool.

[@michael7v6]

I say “that’s the right way to think about it”.

[@paulamattingly4461]

I say "non-trivial" so much more lol

[@spencerl3734]

Jordan “it isn’t obvious” Peterson

[@Sacred_Walls]

This was unbelievably enlightening. Can’t believe this is free content. How lucky are we to live in a time such as this?!! Wow!

[@DAVID4872]

we are,i love them both.

[@thehillbillygamer2183]

I didn't know Jordan was going to interview the president of Ukraine but why they keep talking about North Korea and how come he had Nest Jordan for money yet

[@buhuhuh7757]

And that it will be preserved for future generations

[@ImGoingSupersonic]

​@@thehillbillygamer2183Yea i thought he was super Ukrainian lookin too 😂

[@dentonjordan6992]

“For young people, broadcast media is so dead they don’t even notice the corpse”… killer observation

[@davidlynch9049]

Yes, but the state still collects a media tax to pay for the bureaucracy that creates and delivers media that the young don't engage with. Needs to change.

[@travelthis]

So true. That statement is profound.

[@dentonjordan6992]

@@davidlynch9049 I’ll contribute to your campaign

[@RodJeez]

They missed the point of medias influence through Netflix, KZbin, and news web pages. Take a gander on the Snapchat news pages and tell me there isn't disproportionate influence by media there. In fact it's worse now because the audience has their propaganda being forced to them nearly 24/7. This isn't just CNN, MSNBC, etc. There are other instituons like Hollywood and Netflix pushing the same.

[@omnacky]

@@davidlynch9049 In which country/s

[@scotthudson6628]

Is it just me, or has Dr. Peterson's podcasts become significantly better in the last two weeks? He seems healthier, more engaged, and his guests are intellectually satisfying. Really great to see.

[@hutton87dfc]

Nope. Not just you. Totally agree. He's definetly gradually returning back to full form

[@Sargent.Pierce]

Bari Weiss. Just fantastic.

[@W4114C3]

It definitely seems like he's feeling much better.

[@Fieldeluxe]

Incredible observation, thank you

[@daveferranda9379]

I noticed too, im wondering if he has taken on some of Wim Hof's techniques?? Has he mentioned it in any updates?

[@seanrobbins3417]

The moment at the end where Michael asked advice for mentoring young kids is the ultimate fruition of Jordan’s work. He let him know that he’s no longer carrying the cross on his own. What a beautiful moment. Thank you both for this ❤️

[@adammontgomery5532]

Michael was like a sponge in that moment, just taking in Jordan's words. Wonderful to see.

[@stephencarlsbad]

JP was just being nice to Michael. If he didn't respect his daughters relationship with Michael then he would have gone harder in the paint against Michaels deluded positions.

[@Zappappappappa]

@@stephencarlsbad deluded? How so? Please explain because outside of him having some rather out of the box ideas which he lays out carefully and intelligently I don't see where he comes across as delusional.

[@johnstown2451]

@@Zappappappappa I agree with stevencarlsbad statement. I really enjoy listening to Michael, he is very intelligent and is thinking from a different dimension. Having said that, I can’t stand his atheistic pity parties where he then talks for a significant amount of time about his Jewish heritage. If we’re all here by chance-disavow the past crazy family religion and spend the time explaining how to navigate life with 7 billion different perspectives of truth (with a little t). That’s the biggest question I have for his anarchism believes. Who do we follow when something bad happens? There’s a saying, if you lock 5 people in a room and you give each person $20- by the end of the week, 1 person will have it all. Either by force or conning. He’s right that the USA is far from where we should be, but his anger to the founders his hard to swallow. I was a stupid agnostic for a long time before finding Chuck Missler and Ravi Zacharias. 173880 changed my life.

[@xokelis0015]

@@Zappappappappa I don't know if I'd call it delusional, but he has definitely fallen in love with his own intellect, completely dismissing the fact that in humanity's 200 or so thousand year history, a completely voluntary society, has never existed for long. He's completely discounting human nature in many ways similar to the way the totalitarian utopians do. Neither extreme has ever been demonstrated to work - yet he speaks about his perceived utopia with such conviction - as if he has it all figured out and if only us dumb statists would let go of our chains we'd usher in said utopia tomorrow. There is a way for him to demonstrate his ideas work. Convince enough anarchist utopians to purchase an island and usher in their utopia there. Once the rest of us dumb statists see how unimaginably productive and advanced the anarchists are we'll adopt more and more of their ways of life.

[@alca_pwn_2232]

It brings joy to my heart that people as genuine as this not only still exist but are also both incredibly popular in culture.

[@Drisdelle09]

‘Popular’ on one side of the culture. Apropos of what Michael’s main point was.

[@swingset1969]

This conversation is, quite ironically, chaos and order. Love it.

[@robertjay9415]

My thoughts exactly 😂😂

[@theconiferoust9598]

"It's not ironic--It's coincidental!"

[@jasonwright8546]

But which is which? Anarchism is Order, as it is founded on Natural Law and the sanctity of Natural Rights. The state is Chaos, as it can only perpetuate it's existence through the constant violation of the Rights of its own population.

[@joppevermeulen6077]

But doesn't every good conversation consist out of chaos and order

[@JL-hk8vl]

Educated people having educated conversation.

[@shosugino6716]

Meme them until they cry, then make memes of them crying. -Sun Tzu, The Art Of War

[@umpteenexpression530]

Im pretty sure that was written during Shia Laboofs "He Will Not Divide Us" inccident in 2016.

[@shosugino6716]

@@umpteenexpression530 What- The Art Of War?

[@ernestorountri3034]

lol

[@turizzmo1]

Clearly ahead of his time. Lol

[@ubilava9454]

@@shosugino6716 The Art of burns delivery

[@foxriver9156]

Best Michael Malice interview I’ve seen yet. I hope Jordan does this again soon, I imagine they could far deepen these conversations and I am the greedy bastard who wants more.

[@sarahrenay341]

Me too!

[@riverside321]

Mike beat the hell outa yaron brook also but no rerun because yaron isn't even objectivist

[@nefelibatacomingthrough2707]

Check Lex Fridman podcast. Theres two episodes and both are hilarious. Not as hard on point of problems of the world but good nevertheless.

[@carlovincetti]

Should we change the meaning of greedy bastard:)

[@OnTheRogersJourney]

As an anarchist, I was excited to watch Peterson and Malice interact. They certainly did not disappoint! I enjoyed the sparring, and I think each did a good job of presenting his views and challenging the other's ideas. I do think that several times Michael missed chances Jordan gave him to press home his idea that malevolence is baked into the system he calls the "Cathedral". In response to Michael's assertions that malevolent people are motivated to join the government, for example, Jordan kept relating that different members of that system are often decent, even moral, people. In each of those cases, Michael had the chance to press the point that the system is so wretched that it takes even normal, moral, good people and uses them to do extremely violent, perverse acts. Brave men become soldiers and go to other countries and kill people there, even though afterwards it is obvious that the war was pointless at best. Good guys become police officers and beat up people, who afterwards are recognized as innocent. Decent folks go to Washington and end up making bad laws that require the police to use force against non-violent people. How did Hitler and Stalin accomplish so many heinous acts? Were Germany and Russia so full of abnormally bad people? The State twists people into ugly caricatures of humanity. It uses normal people to carry out atrocities.

[@MisterCovek]

I also thought Malice could've pressed harder on his anarchy explanation when he said that there is not a 3rd party between these two having this conversation. I don't think Jordan understood that anarchy is all about the "voluntary". I think Jordan thinks anarchy is just endless people splitting into groups and warring with one another. I think he missed the part where people will find groups that suits them and be a part of that group.

[@MandrakeDCR]

To be fair, he probably didn't push him on that because Jordan regularly goes into that on his own and is a constant voice of warning against the ease with which bad actors can lead entire populations down the tubes. One of his favorite mentions is the book "Ordinary Men". Of all people in the modern era, I would say Jordan has put into words most often and most easy to understand not just why the atrocities of the past happened (and the related psychology that causes alarmingly similar problems today), but how; and perhaps - how we might avoid it if we try.

[@sharischoll9411]

They have manipulation down to a science. Example. Trump, a lifelong Democrat, told you exactly what you wanted to hear. He is with us. Fact. He was picked, trained and followed the exact same script they used in Russia before they slaughtered over 60 million innocent people who thought that "their Trump" was on their side. They then moved to Germany and followed same script and turned on their own citizens and used Propaganda and accused Poland of bombing them, when in fact the Nazi's bombed Germany. Death toll in WW 2 was well over 200 million and left millions under a Communist Dictator all over the world. That is why they told us they won the war. We free'd people from Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.

[@lolainma3218]

@@sharischoll9411 how are you even remotely equating Trump to Hitler or Stalin? Trump did everything he said he would do … he let no one down other than his naïveté in thinking there were any good guys on his side or that he could create partisanship with the left.

[@andrewkurtz737]

I truly love Jordan. But as a new student of anarchy (just found the abolition of work and am on a huge information gathering expedition) I was hoping Malice would explain some of those ideas better. Either way, it was a great show.

[@dogtired82]

"For young people broadcast TV is so dead that they don't even notice the corpse." Jordan B Peterson, dropping bombshells at the mainstream media. Just love this line!

[@britneyalyssa1314]

I only pay for wifi not cable tv or anything.

[@stevemyers2092]

for old people too.....tv? what tv?

[@azchris1979]

42 and been there for years.

[@briangranger1741]

got off cable in 2000, never replaced it not with satellite or anything tv related.

[@plainuserid]

It’s why the liberal establishment jumped all over control of big tech.

[@PrestoninFranklin]

Can we just take a minute to marvel at the fact that this level of quality information is free and on demand! Absolutely amazing

[@madness198648]

Atleast for now it can be accessed easily 😔

[@GregAlterton]

A big reason I have hope for our society and world.

[@blackthornejoshua2929]

I do everytime I feel the pressure of cancel culture and what social media has negatively done to people. Negatives cannot be without positives. And information like this is the wheat within the chaff. Whenever you feel defeated. Stay DETERMINED, and remember the balance that exists. When faced with negatives search for the balance of opposites.

[@Samuel-sw9dn]

I can't do it. I feel guilty for not finding his wisdom sooner.

[@Michael-ht8on]

Yeah until they ban both of them for being right wing white supremacists that are radicalizing their viewers, gonna be a sad day

[@etoineschrdlu9382]

Michael Malice is one of the few people who can put that "Deer in the headlights" look on Jordan Peterson's face. It's always a pleasure to listen to Jordan and Michael converse.

[@ktwashere5637]

its funny watching Jordan be outsmarted by someone isn't it. ha ha

[@RobbC.]

This is how real conversations should happen. Two intelligent human beings, with sometimes differing opinions, both shaking hands and moving on. That is the biggest lesson to take from watching this. Excellent viewing. What a beautiful thing to see. Congrats on another great episode.

[@nefelibatacomingthrough2707]

TBH, one of the best things in this conversations!

[@diogeneschicken2968]

It's funny that angry white men are associated with JP , but here I am an Indian woman trying to improve my life with the words of this great man. Surprisingly a lot of Indians follow JP . I just want Jordan to know that he's making a positive difference across the world . Also Michael was great in this interview , thoroughly enjoyed this 😊

[@morkovija]

Solid username choice!)

[@diogeneschicken2968]

@@morkovija haha thanks

[@nancyjanzen5676]

A lot of women here do too..

[@deanfennell9398]

well if its written in the comments section on KZbin then it must be real

[@binal-flecki2387]

@@deanfennell9398 soyboy spotted

[@CJWolf-st1qi]

I feel like Malice should be on this podcast like once per month minimum. The contrast of their views paired with their ability to communicate their thoughts so precisely is just awesome.

[@motgbg]

they have the same thesis only the starting point is different. Jordan is for the average man and Michael for the periferals(leftovers)

[@q.m9094]

@@motgbg nah I don’t think they’re really all that close. Malice shares more with the radical leftist in terms of generalizing and considering group guilt than with Jordan who focuses on the individual.

[@andthereisntone3454]

C.J. Wolf Agreed.

[@williamclayton9566]

@@q.m9094 Malice is an anarchist, and is as individualistic as can possibly be.

[@q.m9094]

@@williamclayton9566 Not really no. He brands entire organizations as completely maleficent and denies any possibility that a member of that organization can act in moral ways in accordance with his job. Who the hell is that individualistic in the slightest? It’s literally no different than identity politics and group guilt

[@fkillah]

I’m with Michael when he says politicians and elite education are generally corrupt. Jordan push’s back by countering some exceptions to the rule which is true too but it’s the minority.

[@yCherkashin]

When and where Jordan went to school he got an idea of "school". When and where Michael went to school he got the ideas he got of it. Myself, I have a much harsher view of schooling than both of them. And from what I see of the recently educated, my intuition of where it was all going must have been correct. So it is much, much worse than both of them could imagine even.

[@babyyeti2540]

The because, as Jordan occasionally says, it’s important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Exceptions or not, it would be irresponsible to ignore that they exist.

[@yCherkashin]

@@babyyeti2540 they are not indicative of how the system works in it's design. The rule is the rule, the exceptions highlight the rule. It's less "baby with the bathwater", and more "few innocents, but mostly not, for the electric chair". I see your point, but Jordan has to graduate to updated reality of things.

[@ypey1]

We have a saying that goes like: It is the exception that confirms the rule.

[@fkillah]

@@ypey1 I like that saying

[@NobleMonster]

Thank you guys, thank you. I’m a pretty undereducated man, but I feel like I’m learning so much listening to these pod cast, and other pod cast.

[@romany8125]

Reading also helps....

[@lukeotley8533]

Whoever's doing these detailed timestamps is the real hero

[@rtbphx1736]

My guess would be his daughter, Mikhaila Peterson.

[@EasyGameEh]

@@rtbphx1736 or simply hired editor (hired by mikhaila ofc)

[@1977pawelos]

You're not gonna tell me who is hero and who is not...

[@alienpoppahead9533]

@@1977pawelos well its nawt that bloody simple, I mean we all aspire to be the on the hero's journey, but we're naaawt gonna be the archetype who slays the dragon if you can't even clean your bloody room!

[@bhbluebird]

"the battle is won, when the average American regards a corporate journalist exactly as they regard a tobacco executive" Bingo! This is a great conversation.

[@hariman7727]

There are dozens of moments like this in this whole podcast. This is even better than the Jocko willink podcast, and that one was fan-flipping-tastic.

[@Astares9]

"It's a lot easier to train a smart dog than it is a dumb one." - Malice's metaphors are just golden, I love the man.

[@harrysachs2274]

I can think of worse things than a tobacco exec. At this point people know what they're doing when they smoke cigarettes. I'm saying this as a smoker.

[@puravida1159]

amen

[@jeromestaana02]

I stopped at 1:36:57 cause I got bored, so I’m not sure if the question has been addressed but this discussion reminds me of the Sam Harris debate and other discussion pertaining religion and atheism. Where JP is basically JUST telling them that the “coin” has two sides and somehow whoever he’s talking to just doesn’t get it.

[@noellefrank2573]

Oh my this is quite the podcast. I love seeing Jordan get so worked up. And Malice keeps making great points! He really is strong in his beliefs and I’m surprised by how much I tended to agree with him! This is one of the most enjoyable podcasts! Must see! Great job guys!

[@bigdaddy8291]

I just spent 2 hours and 11 minutes watching this deep conversation. Thanks you to Jordan and Michael for the thoughts and civility.

[@amzgly]

I hope JP does repeat guests. I would love to see more conversations between JP and Malice. This has been, hands down, one of my favorite episodes by JP. Well done.

[@SdotThompson]

Styles make fights

[@BC-gu8vs]

I agree I really enjoyed malice and I don’t think I’ve seen JP be so intrigued with a conversation

[@TheMightyMidget]

Hes been on mikhailas podcast and Jordan and him had a great conversation there also, in case you haven't watched.

[@fahadnazir3912]

I need help I am not a beggar I'm worried about my situation I am poor Please help me $50 food I don't want much God bless you

[@user-em9su3dd9y]

Agreed.

[@briggsb1]

There is something very relatable about Jordan, when he clearly is frustrated with himself, and he can't immediately wrap his brain around a certain thought. He then does something that I haven't mastered. He slows things down, takes a moment, organizes his thoughts, and sticks the landing.

[@dentonjordan6992]

Well stated , well analyzed

[@nickmagrick7702]

everyone has a hard time exploring new ideas. Thats not something that ever changes.

[@sushimaster77]

The second half of the conversation was like a wise professor speaking with an extremely bright but uninformed and confident student.

[@dangame1685]

He's actually just figuring out a relatable way to respond, these are not his first exposures to any of these ideas.

[@olyjfitness]

He doesn't get offended at differing opinions and understanding he uses it to further his scope. Most people (including myself) get offended and try to convince the other side that they are right. It's a good skill to have something I need to work on. So its great to witness it

[@Kathiiist]

I love the respect from Michael. Asking before actually cursing on Dr. Petersons podcast.

[@torquewrench1969]

As a nearly blind man, I love listening to you whilst visualizing you as the great Kermit! Love your messages!

[@TimeWaster_Elite]

I am personally so *infatuated* with the fact that these two were disagreeing on so many different topics. With these crowds it can be super easy to go from an open place of ideas to a downright circle-jerk. But to have these two disagree - *vehemently* in some areas - and actually battle out their opinions in a civil, intellectual way is so refreshing. I had much respect for these two to begin with, but that respect has grown quite a bit. Discussions (and disagreements) like these are what will ultimately save the West.

[@handyman1016]

The only thing that can save the west is a repeal if the 19th Amendment.

[@jpkarbunko]

Meh, I didn't know Malice. It is nice to see Peterson with someone that opposes him like that. Malice contradicts his arguments all the time.

[@JakeWitmer]

I agree. Minarchism doesn't have enough "sufficiently anarchic" defenders. Peterson can almost replace Milgram in that capacity. Indeed, the first thing that made me respect Peterson was his promotion of Milgram's "Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View." Now, if only he continuously promoted that book, and "Jury Nullification: The Evolution of a Doctrine" by Clay Conrad, in every interview, he'd be dang near perfect.

[@davidstone7556]

@@JakeWitmer thanks Jake. Never heard of those but I'll be ordering them today.

[@TheKayzieMichelle]

It’s hard to tell when they disagree. Excellent discussion!

[@galaxytrio]

I'm delighted to see he's looking better with every interview.

[@sportzyhd85]

It’s crazy how much his appearance change based on his well being

[@anthonystallworth474]

Was wanting to say the same thing looks healthy , skin looks good

[@CheeseSteakJimi]

He's back!

[@anthonyschultz6801]

came here to say the same thing. you can hear the strength in his voice. im relieved.

[@tuesdayskittens]

Agreed!

[@Johnny2Drinks]

This was an incredible conversation, I’ve easily listened to it 10 times. Came away loving these two more, hope they talk again.

[@sarahrenay341]

Coming back to rewatch it again for about the fifth time myself. So many concepts to unpack and so well thought out and articulated. Immense respect for both of them!

[@Pau11Wa11]

This was so entertaining to watch. Perhaps the most entertaining interview yet. I hope you’ll have Michael back on soon.

[@beemo9]

Love the disagreements and pushbacks, all done civilly, with teasing & humor. This is how the best conversations happen.

[@feelgood2343]

ABSOfuckingLUTELY

[@bolo2393]

That is why I like malice, he is very playful while still maintaining a serious topic and being respectful.

[@stephencarlsbad]

Nah, Michael Malice is just a smart-hass pretending to be civil, teasing and humorous.

[@stickeyyyy]

Jordan Peterson is back and better than ever baby.

[@segueoyuri]

oh boy, it's so needed. Right now is the time we need this man the most.

[@ipdaily8920]

Do you want skynet? Because thats how you get skynet

[@segueoyuri]

@Chilli Fries what? lmao

[@masterfletcher8942]

Your profile Pepe is a good one

[@melanie851]

@Chilli Fries Why not!?

[@mattc1664]

Thank you gentlemen, discourse as it should be.

[@dust4207]

Dear Jordan, thanks for sharing your teachings and lectures for free. I have depressions for many years. Did a therapy for 6 years and try to better myself and my life. Sometimes when life turns down on me I still have those thoughts like... Why am I still doing this?! Where's the purpose of all this bullshit in this mad world, where people get on eachothers throats for nothing?! But when I listen to you and watching your videos I still have hope. So thank you so much for being you and helping people. You do society a big favor in these modern days. And I'm sorry if my English isn't that good since I'm from Germany.

[@mjmay5047]

Your English is outstanding. Keep the faith, friend. Mr. Peterson is a great source for hope. Wishing you well, from New Mexico, USA.

[@soundtracktothefuture226]

I’m not even five minutes in, and Michael Malice has already uttered, in the most conversational way a court stenographer would narrate it:“Reee.”

[@Equalyzer89]

But the context and how he came to say "reee" was chosen pretty classy imho. And in a strange way, it didnt felt bad for me personally to hear it as an sidenote because I instantly recognized that sound.

[@MrAppie9090]

@@Equalyzer89 why would you feel bad over that sound? Seriously asking

[@Kataxu]

Answering on my own behalf, it is 99% of the time something that could cause a mass eruption of cringing.

[@cannaroe1213]

@@Kataxu Its fringe cringe but if you binge on the unhinged your in no position to whinge.

[@shaulkramer5293]

@@cannaroe1213 wow, that was amazing!

[@michael7v6]

I’ll take this over any marvel movie any day.

[@marcustulliuscicero9512]

Straight from Red Skull himself.

[@Spit823]

Well yeah super hero movies are for babies.

[@przzuscomoditty]

Which super hero would u equate Jordan to and Michael to?

[@impudentdomain]

fortunately they are not mutually exclusive. I can enjoy this and entertainment also.

[@patmccall4647]

Easy there all might

[@beck204]

Jordan met his intellectual match here. He pressed Jordan’s ideas a bit and made Jordan think more than most guests. I’m now intrigued by Malice even though I don’t agree with some of his ideas.

[@Sam-go3mb]

It's because the dynamic between classic liberalism/conservatism, and libertarianism/anarchism, is a reflection of a dilemma as old as humanity: how much order and how much chaos, produce harmony. It's a never ending dance.

[@dancegod1691]

Lol it’s just two guys talking no ones keeping score

[@real.estate.video.]

Jordan treads more carefully where Michael expresses without the censoring fear of expression thy Jordan seems to be burdened with. We all have our own reasons of course, but Michael seems more liberated of inner chains.

[@Garycarlyle]

What dont you agree with specifically?

[@Garycarlyle]

@@Sam-go3mb Like Micahel alludes to, who says harmony is a good thing. competition is generally what drives humanity forward in a positive way. However it goes to far when it is instigating violence.

[@lukecockburn1140]

This is the most significant public conversation for my life Which says more about me than the conversation But it means a fair amount to me I often think of it

[@JK-zw5eu]

I'm going to be honest this has made me appreciate Jordan Peterson's intellect in a way that I hadn't before. I enjoy the sensation of being able to disagree with some of his prescriptions while wholeheartedly endorsing others. It makes me feel like there is actually room for growth in discourse.

[@kevomyco4694]

There's not.

[@JK-zw5eu]

I really haven't found that much desire for understanding in online discourse but I feel that it could be possible if people approached it more like this.

[@onlyallegra]

Read part of his biography and you wouldn't underestimate him. I never finished reading everything on Wikipedia because it was too long and I started daydreaming. I daydream all the time, but the info there was so dense that I came away thinking that he probably accomplished more in a year than I will in a lifetime. I think I can accurately predict only 10% of what he is capable of. His accomplishments are so many that I felt like I needed a nap half way through. I am an auditory learner who used to be able to memorize most of interesting lectures in college and can even recount some of the lessons from 10 years ago and what topics were the highlights of some of the courses. And, half of his talks and lectures I have to either take notes or rewatch multiple times just to get most of it. He is the only speaker I have watched that can listen, accurately interpret and repeat back the exact premise of what the other person said. I know he used to teach at Harvard. But, I think he has some strengths that even his peers there may not have to that extent. Women love to argue with him and try to catch him saying something they can twist. People who have thrice the vocabulary and reasoning skills that I do cherry pick things he said and are often rude when they approach him. I think this is because none of the take five minutes to find out what his background is they same way I had. I am sure his verbal reasoning skills are off the charts. I hear hints of a strong literary background paired with other subjects all blended together. I randomly found him on KZbin and watched classroom lectures someone filmed and progressed from there. Read a bit of his biography and he will make sense. His background explains his skills and how he integrates everything. He is so much more than just a psychologist. The breadth and depth of who is he is is more than we can imagine.

[@andrewprahst2529]

Jordan + Jordan

[@curtiskjobech9477]

Thank you for this comment!

[@captaincurd2681]

Jordan Peterson interview with Alex Jones would explode the censorship.

[@konnieprohaska5553]

I don’t think so. He seemed to be fine on the flagrant interview, without being censored.

[@emmashalliker6862]

Peterson has said many times conspiracy thinking is the lowest form of intelligence.

[@whaleh8er991]

It would break the download record set by the Joe Rogan podcast.

[@captaincurd2681]

@@emmashalliker6862 link please.

[@dranreb1118]

@@emmashalliker6862 No he hasn't. I've never heard him say that. Link or you're full of shit. I already know what the answer is, but I'll still ask you.

[@vastinkelter1393]

WOW - I think it was THE best interview I have seen for the last 10 years! Not only touching important matters - it does it the only proper way!

[@DeepFriedHallelujah]

I’m new to Malice and certainly have an appreciation for his intelligence and work. However, the sticking point for me here is his refusal to so much as consider himself in the scenario as being perpetrator. This willingness is one of Peterson’s most admirable traits in my opinion. Malice just says, “But I’m not them and I don’t desire to hurt anybody.” Peterson’s wisdom is revealed in asking whether the Nazi Germans wouldn’t have the same response prior to being placed in the forced position of answering the question by direct action. A lot of life is circumstance. I understand I’ve never been in the position to wield power or systemic violence, yet I can honestly see where I might do the wrong thing, so to speak, were the pressures, both social and psychological, sufficient enough to influence my behavior. Of course, Peterson got this noble approach from Carl Jung, a hero of mine that brought me to JP. Malice would benefit himself and his followers by practicing more introspection. “But I’m the victim” is too narrow a stance when seeking to hold people accountable. I’m fairly certain that even the corrupt politicians often consider themselves a victim of unfair criticism. Victimhood is clearly used as justification for violence by both people on the far right and left. The assumption is the victim can’t be held responsible for their reactions. It’s a perspective thing that Malice is not interested in testing within himself.

[@yCherkashin]

I don't think Michael considers dwelling on these things to be a good thing to do in a conversation. As a meditation, yes. Not for discourse. I mean, he must have thought about that a lot to have such visceral contempt visibly spilling out at the mention of such.

[@aplusmvp5264]

Yes I noticed that too. Much like the post modernists.

[@consciously73]

"No, it just means you'll be the last one up against the wall". Malice is quite the underrated comedian 😅

[@LetsTalkAboutPrepping]

I laughed aloud for around 25 seconds. His ball busting game is peak

[@alexdiaz155]

My favorite quip was “Hopefully we’ll be putting them in the same camp”

[@Lexwint0210]

Michael Malice has that ability to condense complex, nuanced ideas and make them easy to communicate. Thank you for having him on!

[@ZAYA2227]

A part 2 is most definitely needed

[@egolayer13]

I have watched this conversation three times now. I get something new out of it every single time. I can't thank you both enough for your work and your sitting down with one another for a serious talk. Even now I think there's more to unpack from this. Thanks again.

[@chadd3299]

Just finished this. With an undergrad in psych and a MA in political theory whose thesis was "Is liberal democratic theory a sufficient answer to the question of anarchism," this is legitimately both sides of my brain having a conversation and arguing amongst themselves on a daily basis. Except this is more sophisticated because I am much dumber than these two. Bravo

[@akhalif68]

Hopefully you mind is whole & intact...👍

[@DoctorMandible]

Answer: No.

[@isaiahdaniels5643]

@@DoctorMandible Query: "No," what?

[@ashelyrudd2194]

Malice talking about being Jewish under stalin, The Bolsheviks were 80-85% jewish, they set up the Cheka police who mostly Jewish, they used rat and ball torture in the Minsk, read up about the Cheka on wiki. They always say what was done to them but never what they did to others What a weasel he is.

[@chadd3299]

@@veugeler72 I dropped out before I finished my PhD when I realized I couldn’t suffer the nightmare of academia. I now work with homeless veterans (I’m a veteran as well). I got out before I subjected myself to that misery.

[@sleeth]

I really liked how Michael was confident enough in his own conviction to counter Jordan's points. I think I'd be reluctant to take on somebody as well versed and articulate as JP, even if I did disagree with any of his points (I rarely do). it was a good convo to listen to! Definately put Michael on my radar.

[@siresorb1419]

When you go toe to toe with Mr. Gayfrog man, death itself becomes your jester.

[@billbaxter3800]

Michael is no intellectual lightweight.

[@NickKautz]

That's because Michael has a sort of out-of-control intensity just below the surface that seems emotional rather than rational. And since he's already not afraid to let 'er rip, it puts Jordan in an awkward position because he now has to detour around Michaels demon(s) and try to get him to see where he got it wrong. The error that I think many political theorists make is the presumption that bad faith is the probable motive behind behavior they observe from people with more power that they don't know at all. This presumption is made even more tempting and satisfying when it fits beautifully with their existing grand narrative. But the inconvenient and less self-validating reality is that they are probably operating from the same noble intentions as most everyone else (it doesn't mean what they are doing is right), but from a paradigm that is unfamiliar and couldn't possibly be understood without a lengthy (and unlikely) conversation where both parties are committed to understanding each other.

[@duanenash9474]

Me too. Still confused about why anarchy is something to aim for... maybe I am missing something.

[@fahadnazir3912]

I need help I am not a beggar I'm worried about my situation I am poor Please help me $50 food I don't want much God bless you

[@gwydion75]

I've read Malice. He's so enjoyable. Even here, though, he wont give up any ground. I've said that if the state was just roads and defense, there would be no libertarians. Maybe his purity is necessary to give up no ground when the problem is so significant, but I think that's what makes his ideas impalatable to people who aren't able to "get there" from where they are. I desperately want these ideas to take hold or at least have a significant impact, but I don't know how to square this circle.

[@agaperion]

Have you read _How To Have Impossible Conversations_ by Boghossian & Lindsay?

[@pedrofelipefreitas2666]

There are plenty of libertarians who have ethical concerns about the state. The fact that a single Institution has a monopoly on force AND on ultimate judgement making is not only dangerous but more importantly also contradicts any notion of private property since the existence of such an institution automatically violates everyone's.

[@REN3GADE1]

I love the injection of the right amount of tension in the conversation. This is how further understanding is established. It's a great exercise in developing my own arguments, contentions, propositions, and assertions.

[@TudorsTigers]

An outstanding exchange. The intellectual chemistry between thoughtful order & wilful chaos just works a treat. More of this.

[@cf6713]

Really good. Glad JP pushed back on the othering and the narrative of conflict. He even cooled it off for a bit then went back to it. They have a completely different set of beliefs when it comes to evil it seems. Or MM is trolling which I don’t think he is.

[@Lechteron]

It's not willful chaos. That's not at all what anarchists like Malice or Dave Smith or Tom Woods or the others that you may have heard of in that circle are about... right wing anarchism (and Malice is more aligned with right wing anarchists but is more centrist himself) is largely based in economic understanding (largely from the Austrian school, Murray Rothbard coining the term "anarcho-capitalist", and a little from the Chicago school like David Friedman)... it's not about chaos but spontaneous order. Take a look at Austrian business cycle theory for a good example of the state inherently being destructive chaos disguising itself as order. To use more Peterson style language... ideally you want balanced chaos and order, right? You want structure and stability but you also want flexibility and growth (culturally, economically, morally, etc.). Too much order is destructive as is too much chaos. And you see from things like Austrian business cycle theory that central planning... trying to steer economies invariably causes destructive chaos (see Mises' work on the economic calculation problem for why that is). So if you have spontaneous order then you can have a balance of order and chaos and actually get them working together instead of fighting each other for dominance. British common law is a great example of this. You had free market courts so the reputation of the judge was paramount. They had to be fair in their rulings to maintain their reputation because both parties had to agree on the judge. So if they were clearly biased they wouldn't get clients and thus no income. Then people would make case law books which normalized the whole process in more predictable ways. Stable, fair, and adaptable. So good that it became the foundation of almost all of Western legal structures.

[@cf6713]

@@Lechteron I’d just want ask here, and I am going to be really clear that I have had very little exposure to Tom Woods. But isn’t he technically and Ultimate Monarchist, like everyone always wonders about Jorden Peterson. You know what I’m saying? The Top Dog of monarchs.

[@Lechteron]

@@cf6713 I may not know what you're saying but, no, he's definitely not a monarchist. He would take the Hoppean argument that monarchy is better than democracy but that's not because monarchy is good but that democracy is such tyrannical trash.

[@cf6713]

@@Lechteron I’m talking about God

[@jazzyjac75]

I've never seen Malice challenged to this level, but it's really engaging and enjoyable.

[@thomasp4374]

I think the same could be said the other way too, at least to some degree. Malice seemed to have just enough respect for Peterson to listen to his points but not so much that he wasn't willing to outright disagree with them. It made Peterson have to go in deeper into points. It was real mental sparring, they were challenging and pushing each other without attempting to remove head from shoulders.

[@lohto3]

Watch Malice's debate with Tom Woods about Alexander Hamilton. You'll see a Malice thoroughly challenged and overwhelmed. It's quite a rare sight.

[@scott555]

They both benefit from being challenged like this. It is really enjoyable to watch; you find yourself rooting for both of them.

[@beluga2841]

24:21

[@RealtyWebDesigners]

@@scott555 TRUTH! Huge fan of them both!

[@surrenderdaily333]

Stimulating conversation is always the best type of peaceful dialogue and I used to love to engage in it with my sister but something happened along the way and now we never talk to each other and I really miss it. I haven't been able to find anyone else that I can talk with like that so I truly thoroughly enjoy these types of conversations. I could listen to this whole podcast a dozen times, stopping every few minutes and trying to pick it apart in my own brain which extends the pleasure out even longer. Thank you both!

[@flyshacker]

No question, this is THE BEST discussion I have ever witnessed on KZbin. Wonderful! I love Jordan Peterson, but here is the first time I have seen him question his precepts and come to grips with the contrast presented by Michael Malice. I look forward to Parts 2, 3, 4, and many more! 👍👍👍👍

[@thebosley4103]

Jordan the Grey has transcended into Jordan the White.

[@anotherangrymonkey7435]

How is Jordan like Gandalf?

[@holyhandgrenades5529]

Jordan the White Supreme?

[@BilboniousBagODonuts]

*In debate* "I did not pass through fire and death to bandy words with a witless worm"

[@gregorywilkinson5731]

@@anotherangrymonkey7435 it's a joke dude, get it already

[@grahamlancaster9587]

Great analogy. Gotta slay a demon that nearly slays you to re-order one's self into the higher order being

[@PromitNathChatterjee]

Jordan has gone jousting with several intellectual people in his podcast Fry to Bret,and many more, but damn this one is the most interesting and downright thougt provoking entertainment .

[@portlandtoor]

That's becuase he very rarely speaks to critics of liberalism unless they are Leftists. His ballywick is talking with conservative liberals, progressive (dishonest) liberals, or insane Leftists. Malice is one of the only critics of liberalism on the right that is allowed to play in these circles without getting canceled. Rightwing criticism of liberalism is forboden in our society.

[@leidersammlung6955]

@@portlandtoor I wouldn’t say verböten………….anticipated to the extreme is more like it.

[@leidersammlung6955]

@@portlandtoor But yeah…..that is Peterson‘s M.O.

[@codyironworks307]

I agree with this statement

[@billsimms2511]

@@portlandtoor interesting so why is Malice not canceled for it?

[@geraldm9025]

That was Outstanding! Two “common sense “ (and factual) smart men who are respectful, humble and helpful. I highly enjoyed this and am glad that I took my valued time to watch it. It was definitely worth it! Thank you. 😃

[@raynotten3013]

This might be Peterson's best interview

[@ccmusic2249]

Honestly, this podcast proves how thoroughly Malice has thought out his positions. He's rarely pushed like this (I've watched a fair number of his interviews), and yet with every prodding, he has 10 more layers to delve into. Whether one agrees with him or not, Malice had answers for Peterson's probing and that, in itself (especially considering his admittedly controversial positions on anarchy), is worth noting. He's a funny guy, but his depth is greatly underestimated.

[@3ras3r123]

Yeah, everything except for the "they" question. He never really answered that. And that's a big problem for his position if you ask me

[@flagermusen]

@@3ras3r123 He can answer it and give specific names of people, organizations and events. But it would just go over Peterson's head because he is not actually interested in talking about the specifics.

[@ccmusic2249]

@@3ras3r123 He had answers for them. Some were organizations, some were individuals, and some were institutions. Peterson defended some of the institutions, a valid critique. That's why I remember it.

[@Stratifying]

On the contrary. I saw no evidence that Malice has any idea how things would work once they burn it all down.

[@Infiniti25]

Admittedly it is the first time I’ve heard of and listened to MM and his position seemed pretty fixed and not open to change. I will agree that he has great coverage for most of JBP’s probing, but more often than not it was a fixed belief defensive responsive. He was very quick with his mental processing, responding in less than a second or even before JBP had finished his thought process, especially when he stated that he agrees or that something was correct. That is impressive on its own. Not sure I’d commit time to more MM videos but I enjoyed this one and wouldn’t be put off watching another in future. I just wonder how many people enjoyed him and how many people tolerated his rigidity. 50/50 for me.

[@TheMonteCarlo]

Hey, Dr. Peterson. We met briefly in Seattle back in 2017. I just want to say thank you for helping lead me toward my career path into psychiatry. I realized I’d only never pursued it out of fear of rejection and failure. After what little shadow work I’ve done, I realized I could not and would not allow either be an option. Almost finished my B.S. in Psychology and next step is med school. Thanks again.

[@Dylanthestudent]

That’s amazing! Well done. I love hearing people getting their lives together, there’s nothing more inspiring to me. 👊

[@JohnDoe-yq9rt]

how do you afford it? i want t o do this but fear i wouldnt be able to work while studying

[@olgaolga8991]

Congratulations on your journey

[@justjazz784]

Get it king

[@advocatesagainstabuse3556]

@@JohnDoe-yq9rt Don't be afraid to ask a librarian to refer you to resources relevant to your concerns. Schools used to offer work/study programs as well, many of which, by default, are going to be very aware/sensitive to your concerns.

[@hvalenti]

How beautiful was the last 90 seconds? Both of these guys have big and sincere hearts.

[@steezyshowcase]

What a highly intellectual video. I learn more from these interviews than I do in college currently

[@leislschutte6421]

I feel grateful to have had my College education. Truly one of the best times of my life.

[@leislschutte6421]

And it wasn’t about partying it was the academic part which was the best and conversations both inside and outside of classes with other students was wonderful + at the small liberal arts college I went to had wonderful professors

[@Mas0o0n]

Kinda crazy to have these voluntaryist arguments thrown at Dr. Peterson. These are two worlds that I never thought would interact, and I am so happy they are interacting.

[@MarcoBoneMan]

Absolutely, and interacting in such a productive way. Dare I say it’s a massive white pill?

[@thrashandanarchy]

I've been waiting years for this one, didn't think it ever actually would, but I'm thrilled

[@Akaeus]

It seemed to me that Dr. Peterson was confusing (associating/conflating) the disdain of authority by force and coercion with a general disdain for hierarchy and structure.

[@wunwunx]

@@Akaeus yeah I think Jordan had some presuppositions about the idea that Malice wasn't arguing for.

[@sleeplessdev7204]

@@Akaeus I didn't get a sense that Dr. Peterson was confused, my interpretation was that any time you organize people into a hierarchy, the participants must be willing to play games they may not necessarily want to play at that moment, for the sake of cooperation. But the benefits of that cooperation outweigh the detriment of the participant not being able to play their preferred game in that instance. He admitted that you could call that imposing the game by force, in a sense, but every participant of the hierarchy stands to benefit - even the individual being "forced". In an ideal hierarchy, this "sacrifice" for the sake of cooperation would be distributed among all participants, which is to say that it should not the same individual always being forced to sacrifice their preferred game for the sake of those above them in the hierarchy. Such cases are a hallmark of a corrupt hierarchy. Furthermore, this configuration is a natural byproduct of organizing disparate individuals into a cohesive society. If we did as Michael suggests, and everyone had an option to always choose their preferred game, as soon as a hierarchy formed around the individuals that made the same choice, a new dichotomy would be instantiated. Analogize this to a magnet: magnets must always have a north and south pole, if you cut the magnet in half in an attempt to allow the north and south pole to exist independently, you would find that each piece now has its own north and south pole.

[@alaricgoldkuhl155]

I don't think I've ever seen Michael Malice be serious for this long in a row.

[@PhallicDivinity]

Even Rogan had trouble reining him in lol.

[@Porkcfish]

You can tell he was thrilled to be there. He also respects JBP and didn't want to show a cavalier attitude. After all, if you are chosen, it means you've reached a certain level. He's earned it. Grinding and staying true is not an easy task.

[@andrewbaumann2661]

And it's great. This is the most serious defence of anarchism I've seen Malice provide, and it's actually made me respect him as a serious thinker rather than seeing him as someone who seems to spend most of his time talking about how culturally important memes are, as if no one else realises the importance of humour or satire.

[@alaricgoldkuhl155]

@@Porkcfish The mutual respect in this conversation was palpable. It is a common thing in Jordan interviews, but in this case it seemed more stark given Michael's usual persona.

[@red_ford23]

he's really an hero

[@WilliamBoise]

I just watched this, and it is a fantastic conversation. Thank you both.

[@kunsagigyula8091]

This conversation was extremely exciting and thought provoking! Upto the point where Michael retreated to constant denial about that he is a part of the social structures it was like a great game of chess. Thank you both!

[@flowerpt]

I haven't seen Peterson this animated and on his game since his descent into the underworld (and I realize this was recorded a bit ago). Intellectual challenge appears to be neurogenic here - it's wonderful.

[@TheHumanGibbon]

You guys are a bunch of whimsical fanatics.

[@sideeffect2]

I thought the same thing! It’s like he finally received a challenge.

[@buybuydandavis]

@@sideeffect2 Peterson had core issues he wanted to challenge Malice on. I think this was his first attempt to argue with a right wing anarchist, and he didn't have a good plan of attack.

[@copyninja8756]

@@TheHumanGibbon nothing he said was fanatical or whimsical. Did you just really want to say that so you shoehorned it in?

[@MrST33Lonyx]

I very much like the split screen showing both participants. The sight of minute facial changes in agreement or disagreement helped me understand the topic more. Hope this is a format going forward. Thanks a lot for the conversations

[@hermeticinstrumentalist6804]

This was a blast of a discourse to watch. Thanks for the valuable learning material, and the fun debate/talk.

[@GingerGingie]

Such a great conversation. I'm loving these lengthy discussion podcasts.

[@sirellyn]

I think both these guys challenge each other in the right ways.

[@Hibernial]

It's great to see.

[@Dorakskel]

Ya I hope your right. Jordan is a bit of a monolith and he needs to kind of be put in check haha. I really think he strawmans his ideological enemies a lot of the time. He needs to debate more.

[@nishanthk5306]

@@Dorakskel :0

[@ascotclark]

Epic! Malice tying Jordan in knots and Jordan still manages to put him on the defensive as well!!! This can't be the last Malice-Peterson interview going forward ...

[@perspectivaimporta494]

One of the best podcasts I've ever heard! So glad we are able to have great minds get together and talk rationally about their ideas and argue through their positions. 💗

[@curucach5366]

Malice is always guaranteed to put a smile on my face. Always a pleasure to experience.

[@treebrother]

Admire Jordan and have recently bought his books. After this episode I am a lot more intrigued by what Michael has to say. So I just went and bought his books. These two are like the perfect embodiment of the daily battle going on within my head. Jordan with his hope and optimism and Michael with his utter contempt for perverted authority and the desire to wipe the slate clean.

[@bradvincent2586]

His book “The White Pill” is probably going to be the best political book of the decade when it releases

[@joshnic6639]

Yes. I don’t think Jordan wants to view capitalism as bad because he’s profited from it so much, but if he could remove himself from the equation and see the overall picture….inequality is just getting worse and worse, what’s going to be the end? I say all that to say, I basically agree with everything Jordan says except for when it comes to economics lol.

[@plimithsock]

@@joshnic6639 sounds like victimhood to me, capitalism is bad compared to what ? Communism ,fascism ,monarchy ? You have a utopian tone.

[@erinlikesacornishpasty4703]

@@joshnic6639 you realize Michael says he's an anarcho-capitalist? He seems to appreciate the free market. But almost no one likes what we have going on now in America, which is crony capitalism. Even Glen Beck hates that.

[@tevildo9383]

@@erinlikesacornishpasty4703 I believe the technical term for that "crony capitalism" is corporatism: "the control of a state or organization by large interest groups."

[@patrickerwin7386]

I love how animated JP is. He was clearly very interested in this conversation. It made it so easy to watch and have my own curiosity sparked.

[@adamskinner5868]

I had to take several bites at it but this was a wonderful conversation that I enjoyed very much, Malice is a very smart n witty man who makes his points well although I don't always agree. A good and equal match for Peterson and something I think is worth listening to again in the future. Many thanks to both of these smart guys.

[@bryceharney5960]

Malice and Peterson are the perfect duo in which to listen. I greatly enjoy this and frequently replay it.

[@georgejerry1545]

“NORMIES GET OUT REEE” That sounds about right

[@TheShootist]

normal means average. average mean mediocre. and there is nothing praiseworthy about mediocre.

[@zacharypayne4080]

I don't get the reee

[@Ebb0Productions]

​@@zacharypayne4080 It's an expression of frustration. It's supposed to be screamed out loud. "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!"

[@TheSunshineGroup]

@@TheShootist since when are "average" and "mediocre" synonyms? I view being average as a good thing.

[@ZeroStriker165]

lol

[@smokingone]

Hearing Dr. Peterson actually understand 4chan, while he probably doesn't really have any experience with it is amazing. I heard about him from 4chan.

[@Subin_Roy]

Could you share some of what was discussed about Dr. Peterson on 4chan or perhaps provide a link to it?

[@jamescampbell2353]

@@Subin_Roy the point is , even if the message was visible, it would disappear, and even if it was well known, it would be near impossible to trust. All four Chan has no ‘link’ other than the individual board categories.

[@Subin_Roy]

@@ConnorThermo I haven't ever used or accessed 4chan. I thought the messages would be permanent but that the individuals would be anonymous.

[@smokingone]

@@ajb7786 big words for you? what a trivial thing to be upset about, sit.

[@smokingone]

@@Subin_Roy probably something along the lines of "He was right all along" or "does /pol trust this man?" pretty innocuous stuff at face value, they have threads about almost anyone and often its fake/trolling threads about people nobody knows or cares about.

[@dnoordink]

This was a great conversation guys, had a great time listening. Would listen again! Thanks :)

[@AristeidisKypriotis]

I have watched/listened q great many conversation with Jordan B Peterson and this to me ranks as one of the best. The couple couple of minute especially where so wholesome and touching

[@leedsdrumacademy]

Malice is the only person who says "Stop, stop..." to Jordan Peterson and I'm not mad at him. What a great and honest conversation.

[@justinadams5446]

I bristled at it a bit but I'll allow it, lol.

[@baroquecat2295]

Isn’t he amazing? 😎

[@izzate7]

“A harmless man is not a good man. A good man is a dangerous man who has that under voluntary control.”

[@danthelambboy]

This is what the Christians say. God is good because he is a genocidal dictator that allows some life to continue unharmed when he chooses and that Jesus the harmless guy sacrificed himself by being harmless

[@izzate7]

@@danthelambboy thanks for sharing.

[@ffnovice7]

JBP isn't even a Christian; he's just teaching his disciples how to game the Judeo-Christian ethos of western civilization so they can navigate it the best while the West is still a thing

[@izzate7]

@@ffnovice7 cool.

[@izzate7]

@BIG Jumbo and you as well. Thanks.

[@tiotheberk]

What an amazing convo.. to hear two people have debate over topics that mean a lot to them , disagree and still show respect and interest in each others point of view is so extremely valuable and it should be celebrated when we see it!!

[@valthirteen]

Watched this all over again. Just such a good exchange, rapport & honest examination of those phenomena that engaged your interest. I guess that it instantiates exactly what you both alluded to in 'Long Form' pod casting. So invigorating, thank you both......again.

[@rnicole846]

These long-form podcasts are interesting and thought provoking, but I’ve noticed they also ease my feeling of isolation and loneliness. Listening to a good podcast is like visiting some interesting friends and having a stimulating conversation for a few hours. Maybe there are a lot of other people like me?

[@ottorantaniemi995]

There is

[@typeorulz]

Especially during COVID!

[@ks-dd7gv]

There are, mate. There are. You are definitely not alone.

[@bartbatz1515]

I agree with the sentiment, but be wary of parasocial thinking. Don't entertain the idea even for a second that JBP or MM being friendly means they're being friendly *to you*. There are a lot of other people like you in some ways. But the only healthy way to be rid of loneliness is to go out and meet people. You may get to have those stimulating conversations irl.

[@MoeShinola1]

Haven't seen Michael challenged in this way before. Interesting.

[@renaissancestatesman]

With repeated interrupting before he can fully make his argument this resulting in numerous unintentional strawmen and red herrings? Peterson is a great guest but only an adequate interviewer.

[@johnnyinez6771]

It was awesome these two are so passionate on these subjects both convey it differently but it was a good give and take conversation between these !

[@hariman7727]

@@renaissancestatesman it's the opposite. Jordan is trying to steel man Michael malice's viewpoint by hitting it from any and all directions possible.

[@harkyo]

It's a real conversation.

[@thomasjones9559]

Haven't seen JBP challenged like this before. This is what thought, science and politics were supposed to be. We failed and this simple conversation shows us how bad we failed.

[@MRCHUPA]

This was an amazing conversation! Love both these guys.

[@lindaturner2302]

Communication at its finest! Thank you, Jordan! Fabulous conversation!

[@syndicoftitan8306]

I'm a huge Malice fan, and I can honestly say that his work has changed my life, and I can say the same for Peterson. This conversation is the peak of intellectual investigation. Peterson forced Malice to defend his ideas at the most fundamental level. We're watching new ideas form in live action. 👏

[@j0n275]

It's kinda gay that they changed your life

[@chaoticorder5116]

@@j0n275 I think your name's gay.

[@natalialavrishina5175]

During the 14 minute when Michael talks of the decentralized message board platform he basically describes the first years of the Internet in the 1990s.. This is how it was back then. Gee I remember that 🤭🤣

[@MichL_71]

Absolutely loved this discussion, thank you to you both!

[@stevelux9854]

Sometimes when I am thinking "emotionally" I often lean towards anarchy, however when I think about the social and political societal situation a bit deeper I realize that the structure upon which our culture is based is "mostly right". "Mostly right" equates to a far better potential outcome than burning it all down thinking we could do better if we started from scratch. There is so much we eventually got right in this incredibly complex world that to thow away these hard won gains is ignorant and dangerous. Despite the supposedly high ideals maintained by anarchists the end results of their goals will be mass starvation and mass human misery. If they get their way it will simply be another example from an inhumanely long list of how the pathway to hell was paved with good intentions.

[@kennethslawson5581]

An anarchist might say the pathway to hell is a forced march. An anarchist might say that the state doesn't assuage hell but simply shifts it around at great cost. Thus creating even more hell. A sort of vicious cycle for statists and utopians. The battle between the government factions makes literal criminals every single man, woman and child. This degrades us morally and sets into motion the gears that can build an authoritarian government. The argument that without a government we would fall into a famine is entirely without merit. The government is the second largest employer in the nation. The second largest employer in the nation produces nothing in the market. The famines of the last hundred years have been specifically caused by government. Not the other way around. How could our wellbeing possibly suffer by removing all of the bureaucrats? (on the whole) I'm not actually an anarchist but I sympathize deeply with their position.

[@chriswhite2151]

True anarchy could not exist in this world. Even if you could convince the narcissists currently running things to step down, thugocracies would immediately rise up, as is happening in many of our Democrat run large cities. Capitalism can't function in a place where store can be robbed daily with impunity. It becomes a killing competition with the most ruthless coming out on top. Then eventually the "good guys" organize to protect their own interests. I am surprised it isn't happening already. (Vigilante Justice) old west style....

[@Zero-ry2rc]

This is apologia for letting the state continue to abuse you, simply because it doesn't hit as hard as it could

[@stevelux9854]

The issues we are having with society and government and corporations are based in inequity within the justice system. When justice has been corrupted everything else will fail. Said another way; when there is no accountability there will be no responsibility.

[@allenellsworth5799]

I think therefore it is. I think x would happen under y so it must be so. Is that a factually reached conclusion or an emotional one.

[@vivianangel5873]

I'm so happy to see Peterson finally looking to be more himself lately. Looking at him now vs. the beginning of the year, he seems much sharper and healthier, although I recognize that the format is a very selective snapshot of his physiological and mental state. Whatever the case, it makes me glad to see him more or less back to normal.

[@aarrandmd9193]

Dude's comin back strong.

[@fahadnazir3912]

I need help I am not a beggar I'm worried about my situation I am poor Please help me $50 food I don't want much God bless you

[@MrJamberee]

He looks much, mulch better. He has more energy. So glad to see that.

[@rosgill6]

I love to see Peterson THIS engaged. Malice ALWAYS causes that. I love this conversation!

[@Swimslikefish]

Thank you so much for your time! This is making such a positive affect on so many people!

[@blakehaas3205]

This is probably the best conversation I've heard from either of you respectively, and that's no small feat.