Many Calvinist Are Leaving Christianity (Election)

[@krbohn101]

These shorter snippets are excellent for my kids and I to discuss. I like the longer ones too, just that these are better for teaching the kids. Thanks!

[@ExtraNosAcademy]

Encouraging to hear! Thx for sharing that!

[@krbohn101]

So clear how different they are; that one (Calvin) puts people in fear to ACT right and the other shows how to be comforted in the fear of God, knowing His goodness in our everyday walk.

[@ExtraNosAcademy]

🎯 🎯 Spot on!!

[@shen1512]

Night and day as he says

[@WizardOfTheDezert]

Amen! What a drink of refreshing water this was to hear!

[@ExtraNosAcademy]

Amen! Thx for sharing that!

[@kevinjennings8682]

This is why I love listening to you...and I'm never disappointed.

[@ExtraNosAcademy]

Bless you, my friend! God’s peace.

[@tyleraledoux]

The doctrines of grace are Gods beautiful, defined love for me and His people.

[@ExtraNosAcademy]

Thx for posting! If by doctrines of grace you are referring to Calvinism, unfortunately it’s not grace alone in his system. Practically, it plays out as grace mixed with works. Unfortunately, Calvin has justification being proved through your progressive sanctification. That is *not* grace alone, by Christ alone, through faith alone. I’m praying forthe Reformed.

[@ZachFish-]

All beautiful truths and depth to the richness of God. If only Christian’s didn’t down on the wisdom departed through Calvin, demonizing Him, but instead saw the blessings we have through men like Him.

[@ExtraNosAcademy]

Thx for posting. With respect to Calvin, most of his best contributions came from Luther and others. Many of original ideas are not biblical. Things like double predestination and limited atonement. Both are false teachings. To name 2.

[@ZachFish-]

@ Only some have faith. The atonement is applied to those with faith. = Limited atonement God knows the end from the beginning. Some end in heaven with God some don’t. = Predestination Of course there are complex conversations about faith to be had, wether God chose some to have faith, or He laid down foundations to build faith, but also, neither of those are really Calvin’s original ideas. “Thoughts of John Calvin by Bruce Gore” is a solid lecture to listen to.

[@ExtraNosAcademy]

@@ZachFish-Thx for your reply. You’ve simply articulated Calvin’s non-biblical view, respectfully. The atonement is universal and is for everyone. Jesus atoned for everyone without exception. There is no limitation to who Jesus atoned for. That is a sneaky. move to say there is a limitation on the atonement based on who believes. That is not biblical. Yes, one must believe to benefit from the Salvation that has been won for them. But, there is no limitation on who Jesus atoned for. The Bible does *not* talk that way. 1 Timothy 4:9-10 “The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.” This text is clear and impossible to distort. Although, Calvinist have tried to distort it. Paul is clear, Jesus is the savior of all, and especially to those who believe. There is no limited atonement. Concerning, predestination, God does *not* predestine anyone for hell. That is a false teaching from a distortion of Romans 9. I wrote an entire chapter on this matter in my book: Extra Nos l Discovering Grace Outside Myself. Available as an audiobook, also. In brief: Romans 9 does NOT teach double predestination nor that God created some for wrath. Calvinist wrongfully teach that from that text. They isolate it and read that idea into it. Romans 9:22 does *not* contain the word before hand related to vessels of wrath. However, Romans 9:23 *does* contain the word beforehand related to vessels of mercy. You start to notice this elsewhere as it relates to God preparing a place for vessels of mercy. Matthew 25:34: Then the King will say to those on His right, "Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." As it relates to God preparing a place for vessels of wrath in Matthew 25:41: Then He will say to those on His left, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." God's kingdom was prepared for people. Hell was prepared for the devil. See what Paul says about God's desire for people in 1 Timothy 2:4: [He] desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. People are themselves considered responsible for resisting God. Selah. Much more can be said. I digress. Great questions, my bro! 🫡

[@TheWildIVY]

(I am an Arminian btw) I find it interesting that you say that Christ died for all (which I too believe, but I nearly never hear Calvinists say that). What do you believe about Limited Atonement then? Do you believe in it? What about Unconditional Grace? Also, do you believe that God predestines who will believe and who won't? And what do you believe about free will? What does it really mean to be a Calvinist or not?

[@TxMeme]

It is to come to the humble realization that there is truly no way for salvation unless God, the Creator himself, provides the way, the method, and the ability to grasp it.

[@TheWildIVY]

Yes, there is no other way to find salvation except through Christ But are you saying that men are incapable of believing the Gospel unless the Lord enables them to? I ask because many Calvinists say that because of Unconditional Grace, God enables some to understand the Gospel, and those He offers grace to cannot refuse, and those who He doesn't go out of His way to enlighten cannot accept. Do you believe in this, or does God allow man to play some part in it (ie. believing or rejecting), or is there more to it?

[@aronllyrwilliams18]

I'm new to Lutheranism, but my understanding is that Christ died for all as God desires the salvation of all and yet simultaneously He is the sole actor in salvation because of the bandage of our wills. We cannot chose to believe because we are dead in our sins. His grace is external to us and He ordains to save and redeem through Word and Sacrament. If you chose to reject His grace in Christ who is offered in Word and Sacrament, that's on you, but if you believe His gracious promise in Christ, that work is His sovereign work in you and not your own. Faith is a gift (Eph 2:8-9). How do these two thing work? The tension is held because Scripture teaches both. I hope that helps, but up for some Lutherans to correct me if wrong.

[@ZachFish-]

@@aronllyrwilliams18Sounds about right. Lutherans usually have a “God chose all” type theology, and so the means he displays are Him “choosing”. If people reject, they stay bounded in their natural state, if they accept, it’s because God’s means. (How that’s their will being “bound” seems to be up for debate, as if they were truly bound and than enlightened by scripture, that’d be Reformed teaching, unless they could reject or accept the Spirit, then how would they be “bound”. How could people be bound if they can have faith and depart from faith? So then it seemingly goes back to “God laid out the scripture and it’s every humans response in their wicked state, if they will have faith, following God”). Any way you go at it, it’s God’s word that changes a soul to experience life, but does the Spirit illuminate it or do we just follow. There’s all sorts of minuscule nuances, which I probably still miss, but it’s definitely an interesting topic.

[@TxMeme]

@@TheWildIVY Sometimes these issues go unnoticed for some of us that grew up going to Christian church. I can tell you that as soon as I was saved at the age of 19 years, these questions came up front and center for me. The reality is that the God of the Bible could save everyone but the Bible absolutely teaches that not all are saved. ( fyi - I see the Bible rejecting the notion of universal salvation.) In light of these truths, the reformed teachings, some of which you listed, attempt to describe and detail possible reasons. I believe some of them might be the best explanations that we have. With that said, We must test everything against the words of the apostles and the prophets in both the New and Old Testament. I am convinced that our only part in salvation is acting out our fleshly human nature until HE intervienes.

[@FabledNarrative]

We love Him, because He first loved us. The love Christians have for God is because God gave us that love to give Him. He chose vile wretches to bestow His mercy upon. We were dead, but Got made us alive. Knowing Christ more leads me to understand His choice, not man's, that God has the right to choose who He saves. God the Father gave Jesus Christ the Son a people to be saved. You either think God chose you, because you would come to the faith OR He chose you, because that's His choice to make, and God did not chose the unbeliever who will die in their sins. That the person going to heaven and the person going to hell, was not man's choice, but whether God wanted to save you. That shows God is the Creator, we are His creation, and He has the ever lasting right to do with His creation as He so chooses.

[@ventriloquistmagician4735]

dangerously based

[@ExtraNosAcademy]

Thx for posting.

[@Kori_INJN]

That's the problem, to be a Reformed or Calvanist you have to study other books and know other works more than the Bible.

[@ExtraNosAcademy]

Thx for posting! Good thoughts. I see your point and it’s worth discussing. Yet, there are more pressing reasons to dismiss Calvinism as a way of doing Christianity. 1. All of us are at the mercies of other books. The Bible was not written in English. Most of Church History was written in other languages, as well. We need other books to help us get English versions of the Bible and other helpful historic Christian materials. That’s perfectly fine. 2. The problem for Calvinism is trying to answer questions the Bible doesn’t answer. Trying to figure out many mysteries of our dear Faith when the Bible is silent on many of them. They go beyond the text and the collective voice of Church history on many matters and distort the overall Christian message. Unfortunately. Much more can be said. I digress.

[@Kori_INJN]

@ExtraNosAcademy if you read the Bible you would realize the Bible presents itself as scripture. Peter in one of his epistles equates some of Paul's writing to scriptures. Scriptures even when translated from their original language such as Hebrew Amariac or Greek is still scriptures when translated to different languages. You cannot compare scriptures to any other types of writings, other writings may be revelations but never inspirational on the level of scriptures. That's why it's easy to read books about the Bible but struggle to read the Bible. Second you never really know if the Books you read are 100% accurate in every thing it says. Some books have great chapters and then some chapters are not accurate. To summarize if I read a book written by someone with a particular view point I will only get their view point. However if you read the Bible it will not have the biased of a particular view point. Books will always help but the weight of your reading must be the Bible and one must also trust their feelings sometimes you are right and the Theologian is wrong. That's my problem with Reforms they have people studying the lives of stoics reading their books and ideas. Some of their writing are larger in volume than the Bible itself. So they have to chose with their time what to focus on and I believe most abandon the "sincere milk of the word" for writings of stoics and puritans.

[@Raisin22_]

it's so interesting you forget you're also Lutheran, the Lutheran scholastics would agree with Calvin, not only that, the bible does answer this question, paul says "what can the clay say to the potter" as Luther says "let God be God"

[@ExtraNosAcademy]

Thx for posting. Respectfully, false. Doesn’t matter who would agree with Calvin, they’d be incorrect, also. I wrote an entire chapter on this matter in my book: Extra Nos l Discovering Grace Outside Myself. Available as an audiobook, also. In brief: Romans 9 does NOT teach double predestination nor that God created some for wrath. Calvinist wrongfully teach that from that text. They isolate it and read that idea into it. Romans 9:22 does *not* contain the word before hand related to vessels of wrath. However, Romans 9:23 *does* contain the word beforehand related to vessels of mercy. You start to notice this elsewhere as it relates to God preparing a place for vessels of mercy. Matthew 25:34: Then the King will say to those on His right, "Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." As it relates to God preparing a place for vessels of wrath in Matthew 25:41: Then He will say to those on His left, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." God's kingdom was prepared for people. Hell was prepared for the devil. See what Paul says about God's desire for people in 1 Timothy 2:4: [He] desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. People are themselves considered responsible for resisting God. Selah. Much more can be said. I digress.

[@Raisin22_]

@@ExtraNosAcademy it seems when it comes to baptism you say "let the text speak for itself" but when it comes to God "willing to have mercy on whom ever he wills" you then must jump through hoops like the baptist against infant baptism

[@Raisin22_]

@@ExtraNosAcademy also calvanists don't deny God desires all to be saved,