Mark Driscoll Says Free Will Is A Demonic Deception | Leighton Flowers | Calvinism

Is free will a demonic deception? Mark Driscoll seems to think so. Is he correct? Leighton Flowers responds to this wild take on the free will debate.
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• Mark Driscoll on Free ...
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[@-the_dark_knight]

I would argue that demonic deception would be for a pastor to behave like a dictator, abuse his staff and volunteers, and leave to start a new ministry without any semblance of repentance or remorse.

[@officialDavidRees]

You forgot plagiarism and misappropriation of church funds, all of which I can forgive him for. The theistic determinism, not as easy 😉.

[@cecilspurlockjr.9421]

You've just described this false teacher Mark, the one CHRIST JESUS warned us about that brings another gospel and denies the intent and diminishes the accomplishment of the death and resurrection of CHRIST JESUS.

[@johntrevett2944]

@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 Can you show me with evidence where Mark Driscoll promotes a different gospel other than salvation by grace through faith? If you can't and just have a different view than him regarding soteriology, I suggest you stay quite in the future before you condemn a brother in Christ.

[@rlee1185]

​@@johntrevett2944calvinism is a false teaching but I don't know if I'd say it's a false gospel. Calvinists, on the other hand, frequently say that things are false gospels when they clearly are not. Pot, kettle.

[@John3_3]

@@rlee1185 Calvinism is a False Gospel, for example just take one of Spurgeons own quotes. Complete Heresy!! I missed reading this in 1 Cor. 15 😅 Charles Spurgeon “I have my own opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else.” (Charles Spurgeon, The New Park Street Pulpit, Vol. 1, 1856).

[@pastordavidberman2091]

Mark Driscoll says “free will” is demonic while he constantly teaches about making proper choices. That’s absurd

[@lindajohnson4204]

He doesn't think you'll notice, apparently.

[@michaelfaber6904]

Without free will, isn't this demonic deception given by God?

[@cecilspurlockjr.9421]

Exactly! Calvinism corruptly portrays GOD and HIS righteousness and accuses CHRIST of hypocrisy when held in contrast to what HE said and did. It also denies the intent and diminishes the accomplishment of the death and resurrection of CHRIST JESUS .

[@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

@michaelfaber6904 Obviously, you just don't understand Calvinism🤣🤣🤣🤣🤦🏻‍♂ .... (IT'S A JOKE FOLKS) ....satire.

[@dw6528]

Yes! If the human brain is not granted a LIBERTARIAN CHOICE - then it cannot choose between TRUE and FALSE on any matter. Something external to the human brain would be doing the choosing - and not the human brain. And since human discernment on the truth-value of any proposition requires the human brain to choose between TRUE and FALSE on that proposition - it follows - the human brain would not have the ability to discern TRUE from FALSE on any matter. When it comes to LIBERTARIAN CHOICE the Calvinist is like the farmer who drives around on a tractor all day trying to convince people tractors don't exist! Its called a SELF-DEFEATING argument. :-]

[@malvokaquila6768]

Not given forced. If I give someone a car then they can refuse it, or never drive it. On Calvanism God is the primary cause of all events and thoughts/wills.

[@dw6528]

@@malvokaquila6768 DW: Yes! But Calvin's god does not have to force the creature to be or do what Calvin's god wants the creature to be or do. All he has to do is simply not give the creature any ALTERNATIVE. And that is in fact what an infallible decree does. If it is decreed that Calvinist_A will perform SIN_X at TIME-T then Calvinist_A is not granted any ALTERNATIVE. However - it is logically valid to say Calvin's god *MAKES* the creature do whatever the creature does. Therefore it is valid to say Calvin's god *MAKES* man sin and does not give man any ALTERNATIVE option - and then holds man responsible for that which Calvin's god *MADE* man do.

[@utah32804]

A more effective deception to condemn the lost can hardly be imagined than to tell the lost they have no choice in the matter.

[@thekosmickat]

That presupposes that there is in fact free will, therefore your argument will only get through to those who already believe in it. After all, if there is no free will, then you cant condemn someone at all who is of the elect, and certainly not by telling them what would be the truth (that being that there is no free will if there isnt)

[@kevinkleinhenz6511]

If there is no free will conversations, dialogue and debate are useless just like my comment. But it is obvious to anyone who reads the Bible that one of two things are true: A. Free will is true B. God went to great lengths in scripture to make us think it was true.

[@littlefishbigmountain]

⁠​⁠​⁠@@thekosmickat They did not make an argument nor presuppose free will. They simply made an observation. As far as the Bible is concerned, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are ****without excuse:**** because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.” ‭‭ ~Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭18‬-‭23‬ This passage says that unbelievers are without excuse because God revealed Himself to them through His creation, but they worshipped the creation itself instead of the Creator who made it. So, question: are unbelievers who are barred by God from the miracle gift of faith so as to be saved without excuse before God on judgement day as to why they worshipped creation instead of Him? Or can they say they had no free will and all their actions were determined and God passed over them and forbade them salvation and rejected them unconditionally and therefore the reason they’re going to hell is not because of any fault of their own but because God refused to save them?

[@thekosmickat]

@@kevinkleinhenz6511 cause and effect still occur without free will. Just look at what happens when the wind blows a tree too hard. In the same way, conversation can alter ones way of thinking by presenting new ideas. No need for free will in the equation. And as for the Bible, thats obviously not clear to everyone or else we wouldn't be having this debate. In fact id argue the exact opposite, not only does the Bible not support the idea of free will but it explicitly speaks against that possibility. And less importantly but also less open to interpretation, philosophically there is much proof of determinism and none for free will.

[@kevinkleinhenz6511]

@@thekosmickat My friend the word “if”is used over 1000 times in scripture. The word “because” is used around 400 times. The word “if” by definition involves “possibilities” and choices, the word “because” necessitates cause deriving from an “action”. It’s very difficult to have the view of determinism because in order to do so would mean that God is in heaven enjoying “for His glory” His children debating and arguing over a host of issues. To some He gives “truth” but we can never know if what we believe is truth since He obviously determined some to “believe” they had truth when in fact they are deceived. Hence why you can give me no logical explanation as to whether you know you are “elect” or not since Calvin taught that God leads some to believe they are saved when in essence they are not. If you are determined to believe determinism then I suppose you will believe it in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. If not I am here to tell you to read Genesis 4:6-7 and tell me if “inability” is part of the fall or if Cain was being taught directly by God that he could “choose”. Again if you are correct God has determined me as His child to reject determinism as illogical and incoherent. If you are not correct use your senses and the scriptures to run from this Augustinian fallacy. 👍

[@robertjacobsen4777]

The God I worship and read about in the Bible, is big enough to be sovereign over my free will.

[@14bamalama]

He's also sovereign enough able to grant you free will to choose if he desires

[@lindajohnson4204]

And He's truthful enough to not lead anyone to believe that a decision is necessary, when it is really just him pulling the strings. He doesnt "wink" about the salvation that cost Jesus His human life on the cross, or the gospel by which He saves us.

[@brucejane7395]

God in His sovereignty, gave Adam dominion. Adam in his dominion named all the animals. Did He name them without the ability to choose their names.

[@randypoe618]

That doesn’t make sense.

[@jonnyw82]

Imagine warning people who have no free will about the danger of choosing to believe in free will. The determinist doesn’t even act as if determinism is real.

[@barrettcarl3009]

Your other option if determinism isn't true is open theism...

[@hirakisk]

@@barrettcarl3009 Once again, the Calvinist method of trying to present an argument in binary terms only. They always pair their view with a heretical view as the only alternative, when the truth is the third option that they don't believe. Open theism is a heretical doctrine that says that because of Free Will, God can't know all of the future. But, foreknowledge does NOT equal causation. Thus, God can and DOES know the future but he doesn't predetermine everything. It also makes the mistake of viewing time as a linear progression as we experience time. The Bible says God is the great "I AM". God exists and is in our "past, present and future" all at once. Rev. 1:8, tries to relay this idea when it says that the Lord is he "who was, and is and is to come".

[@barrettcarl3009]

@@hirakisk yeah sure, the creator of the universe didn't create everything and man and didn't cause them to believe they believed on their own accord without God doing anything in their hearts to cause them to believe... He knew what man would do and acts accordingly.... Says no Bible verses ever.... That's heretical free will pelagian nonsense...

[@hirakisk]

@@barrettcarl3009 So WEIRD, you once again create a binary strawman argument to present your beliefs paired with another heretical idea instead of discussing the third option, which is what is actually taught and believed in Christianity throughout history. Do you actually know what Pelagian taught? Or are you just tossing around words to sound cool and act like you know what you are talking about? Because what you are complaining about isn't the heresy of Palagianism. I will let you tell me what that third option is, because if you can't articulate it (even if you don't agree with it), then it means that you are just parroting what you have been told and don't really understand the issue at hand.

[@barrettcarl3009]

@@hirakisk Leighton Flowers and Frank Turek are pelagians or semi pelagian and so are you if you agree with their soteriology... No secret there nor strawmen... Not sounding cool just know what you believe if you think man has free will to choose God rather than God choosing man... Maybe you are trying to sound cool? So what it is? You similar in thought with Leighton and Frank Turek?

[@SaneNoMore]

The fact that Driscoll continues to preach and has an audience amazes me. He has disqualified himself from the pulpit multiple times.

[@josuelainey]

Right! I'd be more sympathetic if he had actually taken accountability for what happened at Mars Hill.

[@jay1871]

I’m not seeking for gossip but would you explain a little? He is being pushed on me algorithmically and I find him to be well spoken and consistent, 15-45 seconds at a time that is. (YT shorts content)

[@thebestSteven]

​@@jay1871 The TLDR is that he has done some wrong sometimes scummy things. I feel many of them have been overblown by haters, but he definitely has a pride issue that he has never seemed to address over his lengthy career.

[@jay1871]

@@thebestSteven thank you! Delivered with gentleness too

[@BenDover91187]

The fact that Christians are so judgemental is what kept me from being a Christian for 20 years. You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor's eye.

[@JohnQPublic11]

The demonically deceived Reformed calling other people demonically deceived is pretty funny.

[@cecilspurlockjr.9421]

Not funny brother, satanic is a better description, obviously, as Mark declares the will of GOD to be satanic .

[@drjcw]

He couldn't help himself, since God determined him to say that.

[@dw6528]

I love it!!! Good one John!! :-D

[@graftme3168]

I'm pretty sure gaslighting was invented by demons.

[@Myrdden71]

But if there's no free will, then God is determining those demons to deceive His own people? That's some God Calvinists like Driscoll have....

[@cecilspurlockjr.9421]

They wallow in blasphemy against CHRIST JESUS while falsely accusing others of the blasphemy they're guilty of.

[@dw6528]

Yes! The Calvinist has no way of knowing what percentage of perceptions Calvin's god has decreed to come to pass within the Calvinists brain - are FALSE perceptions. And a FALSE perception that is established by an infallible decree cannot be countervailed. Which means the Calvinist brain is not permitted to discern it as FALSE. Thus per Calvinism's doctrine - 99% of the perceptions within the Calvinist brain - could be FALSE perceptions which their brains are not granted the ability to discern. The typical Calvinist answer to that is that Calvin's god wouldn't do that to them because they are elect. The problem with that is - they have no way of knowing if their perception of election is not an infallibly decreed FALSE perception. Now who wouldn't want to sign up for that!!! :-D

[@clellaadams]

I've never heard him preach or teach anything other than a snippet here or there. But i didn't know he was a Calvinist.

[@matthewmccall6028]

If there is no "free will" to think and believe what is true, or false, how could anything be a deception 🤔

[@dw6528]

Correct! If the human brain is not granted LIBERTARIAN CHOICE - then the human brain is not granted the ability to choose between TRUE and FALSE And since human discernment of any matter requires making a choice between TRUE and FALSE on that matter - it would follow - the human brain is not granted the ability to discern TRUE from FALSE on any matter. In such case the Calvinist brain is doomed.

[@benjaminofperrin]

It's even worse than that. To say that we have no free will is to say that God is the author of rape, torture, idol worship, hatred of good etc. For without free will God has organised all of that.

[@Adam_A_Christian]

Indeed, (hyper)Calvinists like James White will actually go so far as to admit it's (on their view) God's 'decree'.

[@signposts6189]

Free will is that powerful that it authors and organizes things in a world that God made? How did it get such God level powers?

[@markb3786]

@@signposts6189 very interesting question

[@mitchielou9622]

@signposts6189 As he mentioned - freewill is not a super power.

[@robcrawford1968]

@@signposts6189 When a child disobeys their parent, is it because they are more powerful? Do they have parent level powers? God choosing to allow something that he already has accounted for, is not Him relinquishing authority or power.

[@obrien709]

Mark is using freewill as the foundation for claiming people shouldn’t believe in freewill……. Such nonsense!

[@Will502x]

Exactly 🤦‍♂️

[@dw6528]

BINGO!!!!!

[@thekosmickat]

Seems to me that you are presupposing free will exists to make that claim. What is your proof of the claim that because he said something, he must have used free will? I can get my phone to say that there is no free will and yet we all would agree that it doesn't have free will.

[@NikoFinn]

Right. If there is no free will and we only have calvinistic, creaturely will as God has decreed all of our choices, then it logically follows that even Driscoll himself did not freely preach this message but did it out of a necessity beyond his control

[@DMilbury]

⁠@@thekosmickat Life makes us presuppose free will because that is how we operate. Everything about our lives makes us believe we have free will. It takes some special pleading to make the case we do not have free will. Now you have a choice: do you respond to my comment, or do you ignore it?

[@dougsanders6034]

God doesn't force us to love or obey Him. True love cannot be forced and He gives us the choice to obey Him. That is Biblical! Therfore God gives us all our own free will.

[@cba4389]

When he say's he "would go so far as to say" it sounds like he is making a free will decision.

[@muppetonmeds]

Yes and if everything is predetermined then what is the need to preach? You wouldn't be able to change anything. Also, Jesus dying on the cross would have been a waste of time also.

[@bobbyadkins6983]

If determinism according to Calvinism was true and there was no such thing as free will, free will would ultimately not be a demonic deception.

[@drjcw]

True. It would be God bringing about demonic deception, and it brings Him glory. Figure that out!

[@bobbyadkins6983]

@@drjcw I'm thankful God isn't the author of confusion in the churches. I can see why it could destroy a person's faith if they were absolutely convinced it was the truth. What I can't understand is why it hasn't destroyed the faith of all the ones who are absolutely convinced of it.

[@thekosmickat]

Things (demons included) still take action and cause/do things even if there is no free will. If a blue car hits a red car into my green car, its still the red car that hit my green car as evidenced by the red paint scraped across my green car. Doesn't matter who's "fault" or "plan" it was or whatever. Events still unfold when they are set in motion.

[@jjphank]

@@bobbyadkins6983 yeah, I got burned by Calvinism 33 years ago and the repercussions lingered on for several years after that!

[@AlexanderosD]

That's cool, he's free to say that. And supposedly I'm predetermined by God's theistic determinism, to disagree. 😏

[@RR-ue4im]

God doesn’t force people to serve him that’s not true Love.

[@dw6528]

That is TRUE. However - Calvin's god does not have to force anyone to do what he wants them to do. He simply does not grant existence to any other option. If he decrees a sinful evil impulse will come to pass within a Calvinist's brain - then that sinful evil impulse will come to pass infallibly. And that which is infallible is humanly impossible to resist. Consequently - all human sin is made IRRESISTIBLE in Calvinism. The Calvinist likes to talk about IRRESISTIBLE grace But he OBFUSCATES the fact that in Calvinism every impulse that comes to pass within the human brain is made IRRESISTIBLE. Thus in Calvinism - we also have IRRESISTIBLE sin and IRRESISTIBLE evil

[@robertcoupe7837]

But a good God does train His children. Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. Free will is what an untrained child of God, the Father of Jesus Christ, thinks that they have. I am forever praising and believing Jesus is the Christ, and this is pleasing to God.

[@dw6528]

@@robertcoupe7837 DW: Let me ask you a question. Is your brain granted the ability to choose between TRUE and FALSE on the matter of anything?

[@robertcoupe7837]

@@dw6528 Thus saith the Lord Jesus Christ, to me, when I asked Him about free will. “None of My sheep have free will.”

[@robertcoupe7837]

@@dw6528 John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Are His sheep free to not follow? I am forever praising and believing Jesus is the Christ, and this is pleasing to God.

[@MrWeebable]

10:55 Whoa that's a brilliant argument from the Bible! I have noticed Calvinists argue that Adam and Eve did have free-will. So simply pointing out that God was sovereign in the garden is a slam-dunk!

[@gregpierce9800]

Free will is a deception? Wow. This is truly a revelation. See...I've been thinking all my life I have made bad, sinful decisions. I have repented of these sins and ask to be forgiven because I was knew in my heart that I was guilty. I was sure I was guilty because I believed that I had made these decisions to sin of my own free will. I knew it was wrong, but did it anyway. Now I am informed that instead of taking responsibility for my bad decisions and sin I can simply blame God. Wow. I'm not guilty at all! God Is! Man, I can sure see why people love Calvinism. Sign me up! Who needs Jesus when I can simply shift the blame! Calvin was a genius! Now, not being responsible for my sins, I can sin all I want! (Satan Laughing, spreads his wings).

[@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

@gregpierce9800 Yep, that's what Satan likes best about Calvinism.

[@GovernorStaten]

I pondered this a little bit. I’m probably off track though. Could this not lead to some form of universalism?

[@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

@@GovernorStaten In what way do you mean? What would lead to Universalism? (I'm not a Calvinist, Arminian, or Universalist)

[@GovernorStaten]

@@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT like I said, I really haven’t thought this through all that much. I’m not a universalist or Calvinist or anything like that.

[@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

@@GovernorStaten I usually see the Calvinist argument often accusing some of being 'Universalists' on the basis of a claim against Limited Atonement which declares that Jesus died for 'ALL' the sins of the world. Calvinists try to say if Jesus died for 'all' it requires that 'all' in the universe be saved. This argument is based on the assumptive error required by TULIP that it is Jesus death which saves people. Calvinism must claim the Gospel isn't "Good News" for everyone. But the angels did not appear to the shepherds and declare , "This is gonna be great... for some of you".🤔 But in Calvinism it cannot be know for whom it is Good News.... Calvinism offers no assurance an particular individual is really 'picked to be saved'. Not even the man in the mirror.🤷🏻‍♂ Paul is clear to me in 1 Cor. 15 when he says, "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men." There were those in scripture which were raised from death, but they all died again (exmpl; Lazarus) The resurrection of Christ to eternal life makes this possible for whosoever will believe in him. And this is the hope believers have in Christian salvation, resurrection to eternal life with God in heaven. Christ's death paid the price for sin which separated man from the fellowship with God which Adam originally enjoyed. But apart form his resurrection that alone does not save anyone. It is the belief in his death, burial, and resurrection is how salvation is 'received' and obtained... through faith. And the fact that God made this possible for all creation is 'gracious'. He was never obligated to save anyone. Man can be saved by Grace, through Faith. Some will believe, some will not... but anyone can. And THAT is "Good News" for everyone.

[@hike2024]

It blows my mind what preachers can get away with when speaking in Church. People don't know the Bible and they will just go with it because it comes from the preacher. Probably more than 90 of church goers have not idea what they really believe. It's really sad, but it's true.

[@mitchielou9622]

So true and sad

[@muppetonmeds]

God's sheep know his voice they wouldn't believe this nonsense so in the end it all works out.

[@hike2024]

@@muppetonmeds God's sheep can go astray. Jesus warned His sheep to "Take heed that you be not deceived". If this is the case, then we all need to know our Bibles so that CAN know HIs voice and not become deceived.

[@englishbiblereadings6036]

Driscoll has disqualified himself from holding the office of pastor.

[@malvokaquila6768]

Am I free to accept his conclusion?

[@dw6528]

DW: Good one! You know what is totally hilarious. The Calvinist will tell you you do not have free will - because Calvin's god determines everything. But then when you disagree with him - he will attribute your disagreement to you instead of attributing it to Calvin's god. He will treat your disagreement *AS-IF* you determined it and Calvin's god didn't! Calvinist are so totally DOUBLE-MINDED!!!! ;-D

[@mikebastiat]

I haven't figured out the free will, determinism, predestination debate yet...

[@78LedHead]

Mark Driscoll is about two steps off from being a full blown Islamist, he has such rigid yet magical thinking. "Religion" like his is about to go extinct and anyone who still thinks like him is about to get left on the side of the road in the ditch. Reality is rapidly passing them by.

[@johnsnape1907]

Football players play a game. A viewer watches the recorded game at a later time. Did those players have ‘free will’? Did the viewer that watched it later somehow affect the game? Just because God knows what will happen throughout time doesn't mean we don't have free will.

[@robertcoupe7837]

Thus saith the Lord Jesus Christ, to me, when I asked Him about free will. “None of My sheep have free will.”

[@zoe0abundant]

How can you have demonic deception if there is no free will? Without a will, there can be no deception by definition...

[@vitormenezesdemattos967]

Is exactly what i thought. "You are robots with no free will. Stop thinking you are free to think as you want and choose to agree with me!" Make it make sense. All determinists are calvinists but not all calvinists are determinists, and i'm pretty sure non determinist calvinists would cringe at such a claim

[@vitormenezesdemattos967]

I recently saw the video (thumbnail actually) of a calvinist pastor, and in the thumbnail there's a quote of his in the video: "God did determine all your choices, just accept it!".... i wish i was beside him when he said that to reply "No i won't accept it, you just said that God determines all my choices so why are you telling ME to accept it as if I was the one choosing not to? Complain with God. He determined me not to accept this, is HIS fault, not mine"

[@mastershake4641]

that free will arguement at the end was perfect. I had always challenged them saying Adam and Eve had free will because if not then its Gods fault they sinned. However I never thought about saying was God not sovereign in the garden of Eden? Thats brilliant. They literally have no counter arguement against that.

[@gereshare6659]

I have always said "since Adam and Eve, when did God take away our freedom to choose to love him or not, to obey him, or not, to trust him or not, we had an eternal existence, that we lost when we sinned. We were separated by our sin, and by death. When did God remove our freedom to choose to sin. This didn't end when we were kicked out of the garden. We needed the saving work of Christ on the cross to have communion with God the father again. Recieving a free gift isn't a work. It's gladness, it's appreciation, it's recognition that surrender to Christ brings freedom. I can't give myself this gift. Only Jesus offers it. He offers it freely to all. The Amazing thing is that our God loved us so much, that He gave his son before our creation. He KNEW we would sin, he knew we needed to recognize our depravity without Him. But real love requires choice, that in his sovereignty, he gave us. Jesus gives us the capacity, the power, the freedom from sin, to live our lives for him and his purposes. Without Him, I am nothing.

[@dw6528]

Great point! Also - an infallible decree establishes 2 things 1) It establishes what WILL be granted existence 2) It establishes what WILL NOT be granted existence. If Calvin's god decrees Adam will [EAT] the fruit - then that event is what is granted existence - and the ALTERNATIVE event is NOT granted existence. Thus the option for Adam to [NOT EAT] is NOT be granted existence. So in Calvinism - Adam does not have a choice between [EAT] and [NOT EAT] because the option to [NOT EAT] does not exist for Adam to choose.

[@maxxiong]

Calvinism (and also Lutheranism I think) says Adam and Eve did have free will before they sinned, but they lost it as a result of sin. The free will debate is part of "total depravity", and that is a result of sin.

[@mastershake4641]

@@maxxiongNo Calvinism says we dont have any free will because God wouldnt be sovereign if we did. They just tack on the sin nature to make it sound better. Thats why they say grace is irresistable and that no one comes to Jesus without him bringing them to him.

[@blackwater642]

@@dw6528 Good points. It occurs to me that this argument could go further, and into a very dark area. If “…the option to [NOT EAT] does not exist for Adam to choose” then what are we to make of God’s command “do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?” Was God just messing with them? Saying “Psych! You can’t stop it! Haha!” This twist makes God the one who deceived them (do not eat; you’ll die) and the serpent the one who told them the truth (you won’t die; your eyes will be opened). Calvinism isn’t just another interpretation; it’s a deception.

[@BlairPittams]

As someone with schizophrenia I recall Jesus talking about in mathew 4 the demonic possessed and the lunatic. A lunatic hasn't the rationality while the demonic gets taken over

[@buzzbbird]

LMBO, there is a video that he posted, claiming that determinism is false. NO Christian should ever listen to Driscoll. He has disqualified himself and continues to do so.

[@cerealscrub4609]

How has he disqualified himself?

[@matthewcooper4248]

@@cerealscrub4609He abused his former congregation and got fired. Rather than repenting and seeking forgiveness he went and started a new church full of people who followed him or didn't know, and now he abuses them too.

[@atyt11]

@@matthewcooper4248 Have you talked to mark personally about this?? or did you learn about it in the liberal, leftwing tabloid Christianity today? Like John Macarther, like many popular church teachers and like you and like me, live life by eating the meat and spitting out the bones. Mark has a ton of good things to say, some are WRONG, but much is dead on and men need to hear MORE about how men should treat woman as Christ treats the church and LESS that we should love those born as men who want to be treated like woman.

[@cerealscrub4609]

@@matthewcooper4248 I mean, what were the abuses? What pulpit crimes did he commit?

[@buzzbbird]

@@cerealscrub4609 Lied from the pulpit, he is a double minded man, cheated and used church funds to buy his book(s) to make himself look like a best selling author, all for pride's sake He fails the Qualification, the 16 must meet points that Paul laid out in 1 Tim 3!

[@mikem3789]

Calvinists have this uncanny ability to speak out of both sides of their mouths.

[@randypoe618]

If there is no free will there is no love!

[@kennethdias9988]

Free will is what gives our love for God value . God put that on my heart when I was a child.

[@2Nickcdj]

Well that is far more weighty than scripture

[@LarrySanger]

Considering how crucial free will is in basic apologetics, considering that Satan urges us to supinely give in to base desires (as if we had no free will), I might think the exact opposite.

[@gregorylatta8159]

Calling the work of God demonic strongly hints at lack of salvation and possibly blasphemy against the Holy Spirit!!!

[@dw6528]

DW: I'm getting the impression - Mark is working overtime to make a name for himself right now. Makes me wonder if he is thinking he needs to demonstrate himself - in order to be accepted by some group.

[@OkieAllDay]

Calvinists hate hearing this same thing - but it is true every time. Either God gave humans a free will, or HE is the reason for the "demonic deception"

[@muppetonmeds]

@@RuminantHairdo What is free moral agency? A free moral agent is someone who can understand right from wrong, and therefore can be held responsible for their actions. In addition, they have free will to make their own decisions based on their understanding of ethical decisions. Moral agents are also aware of their actions.

[@brianschmidt704]

I grew up in a church with this belief. If you grew up being taught this you really didn't think it through. A calvinist really has to admit that God has chosen some people for hell. This is completely contrary to the scriptures.

[@dw6528]

Yes! Good points! There are many aspect about the doctrine which Calvinists do not find palatable. So they simply close their eyes to those things and tell themselves they are not part of Calvinism. But then when someone points out those things are critical parts of Calvinism - the Calvinist will then go into a TAP-DANCE routine in attempts to evade what he doesn't want to face.

[@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

@@dw6528 Yep. It's like trying my Beagle to look me in the eye.🤔 Calvinists must affirm God is good... But within the confines of their 'system' they just can't explain "how" God is good.🤷🏻‍♂ If you question them they dismiss you by saying you haven't received the 'enlightenment', (gnosis), from God and just don't understand Calvinism. Yet, with all their supposed "enlightenment" they still have no understanding either. Calvinists are forced to claim even though God is 100% responsible for Jeffry Dahmer's appetite he is not responsible for Jeffry Dahmer's appetite... "it's a mystery".🤦🏻‍♂ They haven't thought it through to the unavoidable conclusion. Most will not, because it's 'too' ugly to consider. So they stop short, and worship a God they cannot trust, and sleep with one eye open. It's sad to see a believer robbed of any confidence they are truly loved by the God who made them and gave of his best for them...personally. That's what Satan likes best about the trap of Calvinism.

[@brianschmidt704]

@dw6528 No matter what they say, If the world is determined, Then God causes both good and evil. It's not the permissive will of God, it's now the expressive will of God that makes evil happen.

[@dw6528]

@@brianschmidt704 DW: You may already know that Calvinists have INSIDER meanings which they apply to various terms. "Permission" is one of the terms which Calvinism twists the meaning of in order to mislead people. Here is John Calvin on the subject -quote When [Augustine] uses the term PERMISSION, *the meaning which he attaches to it* will best appear from a single passage (De Trinity. lib. 3 cap. 4), where he proves that the will of god is the supreme and primary *CAUSE* of all things….(Institutes 1, 16, 8) So in Calvinism - the word "Permission" is used as a replacement word for CAUSE. 1) What Calvin's god CAUSES - he permits 2) What Calvin's god does NOT CAUSE - he does NOT permit. Calvinists practice what linguists call INSIDER language. They take words which have STANDARD meanings - and the alter the meaning of those words - giving them an INSIDER meaning. The INSIDER knows the altered meaning of the word. The OUTSIDER does not. In this way Calvinists can use language which is designed to mislead people.

[@maxxiong]

Honestly any type of soteriology will end up with the problem "if God is sovereign, why doesn't He try to intervene to save more people?" (Jesus said Sodom would have repented) unless you deny God's sovereignty or omniscience.

[@knightsamurai1251]

Think about the statement from the get go. "Free will is a demonic deception". Isn't that a oxymoron right out the gate? If you're being deceived that means someone one is feeding you false information or impression to believe something that's not true in order to subvert your will. The ability to device some one necessarily implies free will. He destroyed his entire point in the very first sentence.

[@eugenelombard960]

Psa 119:30 I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me. Psa 119:173 May your hand stand ready to assist me, for I have chosen your precepts. ** In the above verses the Psalmist is speaking to God and not God speaking to the Psalmist.

[@eugenelombard960]

@@beaudidly5347 I can somehow understand why a Calvinist views the verses I have quoted differently. Kindly advise me how a Calvinist views the following verses in Ezekiel 18: 27-32 as these verses clearly demand choices to be made? Many thanks and God bless.

[@johnortiz566]

One can only be tempted if one has free will

[@djohnson3093]

If only the word "IF" wasn't used over 1600 times in scripture. Mark might have an argument 😉

[@RedeemedRogueMolecules]

Can you expand on this line of thinking for a lay idiot like me. I’m interested. Treat me like a slow student

[@djohnson3093]

@RogueMolecules The word "IF" is only used by God to man. Never man to God. "IF" in scripture is conditional. "IF" you believe.... "IF my people pray... "IF" you abide in Me... "IF" you confess.... "IF" you love Me, keep My commands.... The word "IF" speaks to our responsibility to God. The word IF also leaves an alternative choice (if you do not).

[@quentinherrera9209]

If implies choice. 2 Chronicles 15:2, Ezekiel 18:21, Malachi 2:2, Romans 10:9, and 1 John 2:15 are a few places I'm Scripture that exemplify this reality.

[@djohnson3093]

@RogueMolecules Do a word study on the word "IF" in scripture and each context it's used in. Believe it or not, it's not only quite interesting but very enlightening. I learned things that I wasn't even thinking about. You'll see quickly that the word "IF" requires that a choice be made. The doctrine of calvinism (especially determinism) will die a slow, miserable death.

[@dw6528]

Wonderfully said!!!

[@OkieAllDay]

Interesting that no church father taught predestination and loss of free will until nearly 400 (!!!!) years after Christ by a gnostic-convert named Augustine.

[@Aslansfriend2]

Why would anyone listen to Mark Driscoll? He should not be “in the pulpit” until he repents.

[@Nazareyes-zu3ul]

Doesn’t he make a living off of the church like Joel and the others?

[@PETERJOHN101]

Very effectively argued, brother. Jesus warned that many false teachers would lead many astray and we see it here.

[@a.k.7840]

Well done!

[@Yaas_ok123]

Amen from Finland.

[@Steve-og4ii]

Calvinism is such a convoluted, confusing system, even it's adherents find it difficult to piece together, and yet they often accuse non- Calvinists of not understanding Calvinism!

[@JStevensdk7]

Psalm 119:108 "Accept, I pray, the freewill (demonically deceptive) offerings of my mouth, O Lord, And teach me Your judgments." 😂😂😂

[@fandude7]

Not surprised. Mark Driscoll doesn't want to be responsible for his actions.

[@timothybierl2746]

Without free will, which is freedom to make choices within confinements of reality, man cannot not logically, reasonably, or ethically be held responsible for our actions and makes God out to be a moral monster. God is good not because he controls everything, but because God gives us grace. There is no grace from a God when God decides everything and our actions are not our own.

[@LL-wz7je]

“whosoever believes” “those who call on the name of the Lord” “Repent of your sins and believe the Good News!” “Now repent of your sins and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped away.” Sound like free will to me. Obviously the Holy Spirit draws and convicts a lost sinner when they hear the Gospel but we respond to the Spirit with our freewill by repenting and believing.

[@DC-xb5tu]

So much Christian love coming from this channel and comment field.

[@terrifictomm]

I wish Calvinist wore collars like Catholic priests do. Maybe a different color. That way we could see them coming and know beforehand what brand of irrational Christian we were talking to. One of the most freeing discoveries I made in my struggling twenties was when it was pointed out to me that behaviorism (the "No Free Will" of biology and psychology) is self-contradictory and therefore COULD NOT be true! It doesn’t matter what a Calvinist, a behaviorist, or an atheistic materialist says against Free Will. They cannot be correct because they are contradicting themselves. If we have No Free Will and then we are incapable of speaking anything true. Without Free Will Truth doesn’t exist! Only what is exists.

[@KnightFury1]

I think the deeper and more disturbing point in regards to the fall of man in the garden is that if God decreed the fall to happen (as claimed by Calvinist purists), after he gave Adam and Eve the choice of whether or not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, not only does that make God responsible for evil, but also makes God a hypocrite by punishing Adam and Eve and thereby shifting the blame to them when He is the one who orchestrated the fall. That's blasphemy AND heresy.

[@bobwaughman6259]

As teachers we need to remember that we who teach will be judged more strictly

[@geertjekneefel5252]

The sad part is even if one believed in calvinism that wouldnt b the guarantee whether if he had been really elected --- i got this from reading Calvin, Theodore Beza and the Puritan Reformed writings. Calvinism in its purest form will take us into this gloomy despair of uncertainty that's why to suit the 'itching ears' of the mass it has to be adjusted into what we call now as Neo-Calvinism or Pragmatical Calvinism that teaches one just simply believes and sits nicely in the church and one will surely b proven as the 'previously elected before the foundation of the world'. For most of calvinists terms like 'pursuing holiness' is some sort of philosophical or even mysterious concept that should be analyzed under theological microscope instead of just simply being dilligently practiced unto a fruitful holy living.

[@bkahlerventer]

The argument that free will is demonic deception, risks calling things from God, demonic

[@roxanasalazar1234]

Is he still teaching wow… I don’t think any reformer take him serious. Who is following him at this point?

[@cecilspurlockjr.9421]

Unbiblical morons obviously . Who else ?

[@KlintonSilvey]

Methinks I am glad to be on the opposite side of this than Driscoll

[@BlessedMrs.777]

I had a discussion with a Calvinist that rattled off proof texts and then said I was deceived by Satan. What a pity. I just wanted a discussion.

[@deltadom33]

Noone takes mark Driscoll recently, one thing I have always wondered is whether that Christian publishers were leant towards publishing Calvinist literature As I worked in the Christian bookshop for years With some of mark Driscoll's books that he got them ghost written and did not write them himself

[@andrewtsousis3130]

I hope not because it’s all over the scriptures lol

[@felixgilberto25]

The word Free Will is in the Bible Philemon 1:14 NASB: but I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion, but of your own free will. Psalm 54:6 ESV,NIV, CSV: With a freewill offering I will sacrifice to you;
I will give thanks to your name, O LORD, for it is good. Ezra 7:13 (KJV) I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee. Psalm 119: 108 (KJV, NKJV, ESV, NASB) Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

[@BloodBoughtMinistries]

It is only demonic when you want to use that as an excuse to abuse the people in your church.

[@amapola53]

So if there's no free will, then whos committ8ng the sin?

[@ericfisher1360]

In order to be deceived you have to have both an option and convinced to believe something else.

[@shredhed572]

He formed his "Church" as a corporation with himself as CEO after getting removed from Mars Hill. That should say everything about this thug. He is, by definition, not a Pastor.

[@user-dx6mf2xs4j]

That's why I don't listen to Driscol. I'm exercising my free will.

[@sparkyy0007]

Without free will, there can be no reason or logic. But to make the determination free will doesn't exist, you must use your reason and logic. Their arguments are internally inconsistent.

[@dw6528]

BINGO!! Dr. John Searle - Professor Emeritus of the Philosophy of Mind and Language - Berkeley -quote “Rationality only makes a difference where there is the possibility of irrationality. And all rational activity logically presupposes Libertarian Free Will. This becomes obvious when one realizes that rationality is possible only where one has a choice among various rational as well as irrational options.” End quote - (Rationality in Action) Therefore since the liberty to choose between multiple options is the quintessential definition of Libertarian freedom, it LOGICALLY follows - where Libertarian Freedom does not exist, neither does the ability to think rationally.

[@briankady1456]

So, by saying that there is no such thing as free will, Mark Driscoll makes himself a Calvinist.

[@christianhalkides5707]

Yeah he’s lost he doesn’t know what he is right now God be with him….

[@walkermediaworx]

100% Thank you.

[@rlee1185]

So his bad actions at his former church were ordained by God. How does that affect his repentance

[@greggpurviance7252]

He can't repent because there is no free will

[@Madcow7777]

Everyone is like… you don’t get a choice. Then the chose to call themselves his sheep. He grants himself free will. So he’s a demon? God don’t call this guy a sheep.

[@Once-lost]

Thank you for covering this, great job!

[@geraldpolmateer3255]

Josh McDowell wrote the book "Don't Check Your Brains at the Door".

[@franknolton7009]

Leighton - really enjoy your discussions. Was wondering what your take is on prevenient grace. Thanks!

[@blackwater642]

He has several videos on KZbin and articles on his website on the topic of prevenient grace. That view is sometimes called Arminianism. The person he often spars with over this is Brian Abasciano of the Society of Evangelical Arminians. You can search his site for prevenient grace, Arminian, Arminianism, or Brian Abisciano for info. Warning: I’m probably not spelling Abisciano right, but if you scroll through the videos and articles you’ll find them. The Org may also be called the Society of Arminian Evangelicals, I can’t really remember.

[@Gustav7777]

Do a vid about Jonh 12: 39-40

[@JPGdesigngroup]

he should have stayed out of the pulpit! I can't even listen to him.

[@pattyb6003]

If my will is not free, then who is being deceived? Why does it matter?

[@BPond7]

This guy sounds just like Sam Harris. He says there’s no free will. Was it his will to state that? Nope. Not according to his incoherent worldview. Therefore, he did not arrive at that conclusion with any logic, reasoning, or even a single thought of his own. I’m not going to take anyone like seriously.

[@salpacheco1971]

If there was no free will we would not be in the mess we’re in and Lucifer would never have become Satan! This guy is wrapped up and bound by his calvinistic beliefs and now has to live out his world view in order to not be a hypocrite that gets cast into the lake of fire 🔥!

[@nickswicegood4316]

Howdy I’m a bit new to this channel. I appreciate your perspective and think you’re correct. I was intrigued by your appeal to the early church being in agreement with your understanding of free will. For the sake of consistency, does the agreement of Christians for 1500 years prior to the reformation regarding baptismal regeneration influence your position on that too? Peace.

[@canadiankewldude]

*_God Bless_*

[@mccaboy]

Without free will we can all stop teaching reading..thinking.

[@aquinasrost]

My daughter told me she started listening to Driscoll as part of a bible study she was attending, where the leader used Driscoll sermons as the study material. I asked her what she was learning, and she expressed concern over some of his teachings, in particular his views on spiritual warfare. I told her to get out of that bible study. Driscoll is consumed with the idea of the demonic and sees the demonic everywhere. His teachings are not healthy for believers.

[@ourclarioncall]

I have no idea why churches have “bible studies “ then go on to use some book by some Christian celebrity. Can we just open up the scriptures and use the gifts and ministries that are present amongst our own part of the body and sufficient to bring us edification. We don’t need these people and most of them are peddlers of false doctrine (which always leads to sin )

[@rorywynhoff1549]

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

[@DalelCampbell]

Thank you for the clearest explanation of free will, specifically a libertarian view of it. As a Calvinist I don't see a tension between free will and God's sovereignty in the garden, I don't friends who do. The question I have, in your view, what did the fall do to the will? The verses quoted speak about the Christian who have been given a heart of flesh. What verses show one with a heart of stone being free?

[@the57student]

all these evil people wish there was no free will.

[@englishbiblereadings6036]

Good video, but is it right to give air to the views of a man who is unfit to hold the office of pastor?

[@trebmaster]

10:38 - 11:10 this is the mic drop moment

[@Giggin-yourmom]

That’s a wild take 😂 “Not my will Lord but YOURS”.

[@bobrichards1]

Much learning doth make thee mad Mark Driscoll. Unless we are doing the prime commandment, loving one another, caring for each other's well-being, it is profane to Babylon about things we don't and can't understand.

[@VoiceUnder]

Proof of free will: God hardening Pharaoh's heart in Exodus. If God hardened his heart from the beginning of time, that would be a case for Determinism. But if God intervened in the moment (as it is written), this means he intervened against Pharaoh's Free Will. Nothing makes sense that God would have intervened against.

[@lakevacm]

If you don’t have it per God how could it be evil?

[@g.c.541]

LOL! Exo. 35:29 says "freewill" in the verse. Haha!

[@Sparrowlee_]

They are pretending. They know better. I don’t buy it. They are not deceived.

[@user-im9ov9ud7m]

Lots of demons say free will is demonic,,, because that's what demons do.

[@timothyn4699]

fail. There's scripture that says "if I speak concerning a nation to destroy it...and they turn from their evil ways, I will relent if the destruction i said would come", and vice versa for ppl who were good but then turn evil. To say no free will exists is to call God a liar

[@KISStheSON...]

I will go ahead and say that free will can be demonic if we let it be! The flesh lusts after the things of the world which are not of God, but our spirit is willing to walk away from temptation, therefore if we give ourselves over to fulfill the lusts of the flesh, I'd say that might be considered demonic. It's a simple understanding that we are made of BOTH flesh AND a willing spirit...therefore we have the choice to listen to either of them and walk in the desires thereof. It's a bit ignorant to believe the teaching that we are only flesh and left to do only what the flesh will do...that would be demonic of God to do to us. Matthew 26:41 “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” We are in a WALK on the frontlines of a daily WAR against temptation, which is a hard day's WORK....The more often we ignore the willing spirit the easier it is to ENTER into temptation without FEELING the PAIN of hesitation, regret, blame, shame, and humility. Not until we receive the Holy Spirit (through faith in what we heard and learned) will it become much easier to war against the flesh because it becomes TWO against ONE 🦾 God is good... After all, he didn't leave anyone of us with flesh alone, that would be demonic. We only become demonic by giving ourselves to WORK unrighteousness with GREEDINESS. Ephesians 4 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth WALK not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. Ignorance is a choice because we may freely eat of any tree...but obviously only the "trees" that are available to us, free will isn't a superpower! 😊 P.S. "Free will is a demonic deception"...Those very words are a demonic deception and you are free to eat thereof.

[@jimmie_g]

The Bible: I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their OWN FREEWILL to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee. -Ezra 7:13 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom FOR ALL, to be testified in due time. -1 Timothy 2:5-6

[@thebestSteven]

I was a floundering immature 21 year old man in college, trying to live as a Christian, but it was like I was walking through a thick fog tripping over everything in my way and then a friend tweeted out Driscoll's Marriage and Men sermon. This is like early 2012 and it was the first time I'd ever watched a sermon on youtube, I'd heard a million sermons in my life, growing up in church and going consistently in college, and being a part of my university's BCM, but in 2012 never really dawned on me you could watch sermons online and I wouldn't have known who to watch. I was taught the bible well, but grew up with a single mother and never really taught how to live as a man, or had any direct discipleship to help me mature. That sermon was like a much needed punch in the face. It was one of a few seemingly small things that happened just before I hit my lowest point in life and instead of going under they sparked me into becoming a man instead of a pathetic, weak, immature boy. The difference between me then and when I graduated 2 years later was unreal. God used that sermon to pretty much save my life, and I will always appreciate him preaching it. All that being said Driscoll is very frustrating, often having a good idea, but stretching it further than it should go. Drawing conclusions like this that sound deep but upon inspection don't hold water. I dunno if it's pride in his own cleverness or what, but as I said, it is frustrating.