Knees Over Toes Guy Breaks Down Joel Seedman's 90 Degree Principle

Ben Patrick, aka Knees Over Toes Guy is back on the podcast after hosting a seminar here at The Super Training Gym. Ben had three major knee surgeries before he was 18 which unfortunately forced him to stop pursuing a career in basketball. He started working on building healthy knees in his early 20's and now has "bullet proof" knees and is able to do some amazing athletic feats. He founded the Athletic Truth Group and has helped create over 2,000 successful knee rehab stories and is revolutionizing the way we look at exercise movement.
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[@littlethuggie]

Every range has its place. Joel isn't an idiot for saying 90-deg is the "best", he's an idiot for saying there is a best.

[@chrisarchard2009]

this exactly

[@vincentflow]

But he’s definitely an idiot

[@killjoy3373]

He isn’t just saying 90 deg is the best. He is saying that anything more than 90 deg is dangerous and should not be done.

[@littlethuggie]

@@killjoy3373 his main point is 90 degrees is "optimal" for everything.

[@intensity.density2208]

I used to squat to parallel. Over time as I progressed and got stronger, I started to develop hip pain and lower back pain. I explained it all to my physical therapist and he immediately realised what was happening. 1. Me not going below parallel meant that I was leaving so much potential for growth and strength on the table. 2. My tendons, hip flexors and glutes were far weaker than my quads, which caused a lot of tension causing the pain. My body was trying to make up for the imbalances So he got me to do bodyweight lunges and ass to grass squats with just a bar. The goal was to pretty much get good at being in that position and slowly progress it over time and I mean I took my time. It took me 12 months to work back up to a 100kg squat. No pain in the hips or lower back, and my legs grew more than they ever have. Partials have their place, but only training with partials is asking for disasters. Train as deep as you can, get good in the 'full range'. Trust me, you'll be glad you did. Don't rush your progress, either. Think longevity.

[@Dapper_Dan_Man]

What an efficacious dose of knowledge

[@sergiootero5904]

Borderline supraphysiologic

[@cg_actaware]

My delts are tingling… knees too lol.

[@mitchellnebrosky2765]

Lol

[@brandons9027]

MPMD

[@slkalmuhairi]

wrong channel wrong channel

[@JJphysio]

'What shit hurts your body? And then how do we scale that back to a level it doesn't hurt your body? And then we get stronger at that.' Welcome to some basic true shit (PT)

[@GEMHAZ]

This guy has been a great find for me. As someone who plays sports with a decent amount of injury risk (particularly the role I play) his stuff is something I'll set time aside to do as a part of a prehab routine.

[@Tagerrun]

What are you talking about Jackie the NBA will cover those costs for you ;)

[@Panda13572]

The study that Joel refers to even states that they found nothing to support the hypothesis and that they recommend full range of motion if capable. You can't just take the title of a study and a hypothesis and reject the data and conclusions made by those who conducted it.

[@theparadisesnare]

And yet.... that's what so many do sadly

[@A_Turner]

We have Another fitness charlatan in Joel Seedman, for info have you got a link to that study so I can reference it?

[@johnd1655]

imagine not even reading the conclusion of a study you cite, even idiots read the abstract + conclusion

[@ghostofmoredishesmorebitch1507]

And somehow he has almost a million followers and pro athletes drinking his dumbass Kool aid

[@spontaneousbootay]

Well he's a religious nut so it's typical

[@Solairethedarksoul]

I always felt like 90 degree was something they taught trainers to ensure protection of their clients but fundamentally I always felt full range of motion made the most sense to me. Be strong in flexible places.

[@treasurewuji8740]

If you don’t break in the training session, I am not liable. Long term? Good luck proving it LOL.

[@roundboxfitness3588]

These are the discussions and the mind set we need to push the industry forward.

[@flyintheskyinc.8705]

Amen

[@gilbertgurney4898]

Wenning warm ups come to mind when he talked about high reps. I've started doing 1/8 sq depth and its really helped my knee pain. Its all context really 90deg and full range it all has a place.

[@StraitjacketFitness]

This is an excellent comment sir.

[@hugehairyfetus]

I’ve also found that 1/2 rep “pulses” at the bottom or top of a rep can be extremely useful at developing strength in inured muscle groups. I had a compound fracture in my left humerus and can do 30+ pounds pretty easily for different types of curls after about 8 months of work.

[@ianchappell4299]

This so spicy for the algorithm

[@Only_bodybuilding_]

Gay

[@JrnMnd08]

My biggest reason for my injuries that have lasted over two years is trying to progress too fast and pushing past my capacity too often. Great for the mind but it broke my body down and now I have to start from square one AFTER I’m fully healed - which maybe Ill never be.

[@samsonmanna9017]

you will be fully healed. The mind is so powerful in healing the body. just push mentally and reflect like how you do physically.

[@hugehairyfetus]

Cross-training and rehabilitative exercises/therapies require serious patience and perseverance and are also “great for the mind.” I have come back from serious injuries (compound fracture in my humerus and multiple fractures in my acetabulum and spine) sustained in my early twenties and believe me, you can overcome any injury if your head and spirit are right. We may never fully understand and appreciate the capacity of the mind and body to heal. Keep moving. Never surrender.

[@RGV2300]

It's neither good for the mind. You can peak on strength in a couple of weeks in something challenging, that isn't optimal. Aside from your different tissues not adapting properly, you'll easily stall, only for cns overloading.

[@chazaqs9109]

Are you sure that you are just progressing too fast? What are you doing for training? What positions are you in? What imbalances do you have that your body is trying to compensate for? How are your muscles firing and what are your recruitment patterns? What are your hormone and stress levels? Are you sympathetic or parasympathetic? Are you dreaming when you sleep? You need to listen to Trey, you need to change your mindset. If you believe you will never be healed, you won’t be. You can get better, even better than you ever have been, but your mindset is #1.

[@slappyhappy6192]

I just did kneesovertoes body weight split squats and feel euphoric

[@ChipSpencer123]

Dr. Christopher Sommer talked about building gymnastics strength and the importance of building tendons and ligaments so that the muscles could be stronger without getting hurt. He talks about this in an interview with Tim Ferriss in 2016.😊

[@WilliamsWrestlin]

One of Kneesovertoes guy best video. He's the next Poliquin

[@denniscookecscs]

You need to accept some orthopedic risk to avoid metabolic catastrophe. -Greg Glassman

[@pilot.wav_theory]

I like this quote

[@floydparker7772]

It’s amazing how much guest host Don Frye sounds like Mark!

[@philipklisan7180]

🤣

[@jordan-kristina2014]

What hurts, scale it down and train it. So true! I had quad tendinitis terrible several years ago and couldn't air squat without voodoo flossing first. Fortunately I had a physical therapist that knew what he was doing. He had me do slow eccentric pistol squats on a slant board. If I had thought of what would hurt the most I probably would have thought of that. But doing it under control and progressing it slowly helped so much. Now if pain comes back I do those before a squat session and it usually helps.

[@nicolasmoran7722]

I've been squatting as deep as I can for around 6 months . Increased my mobility, flexibility, strength and my knees feel better than ever. #TeamFullROM

[@maddog47g]

Badass video!! Keep inspiring us to be better ❤️

[@djsupac7391]

well said Ben!!!...way to rep ATG!!!

[@clearasil11]

I abandoned regular squats altogether and started using the hack squat and the smith machine with feet forward. I get max knee and ankle flexion and it feels soooo good.

[@blakjak8719]

I went to front squats and sleds. Saved my lower back and knees..never felt better.

[@TheComedyButchers]

the people at my gym who bench and squat at 90° are not nearly as big as the people who use full ROM

[@fancyhitchpin8675]

Yeah but the full ROM guy's joints are on the verge of exploding in to liquid collagen and oozing out their asses. It's science.

[@masonmalaguti3463]

No bro u got it wrong

[@ciresemaht1271]

@@fancyhitchpin8675 that's not true at all. Full range of motion will help keep your joints healthy. While shortening your range of motion will lead to muscle imbalances and cause joint problems later on.

[@LiftandBeer]

@@fancyhitchpin8675 joints like any other part of the human body are trainable. People run into trouble when exercising past their current abilities. Increasing ROM is how you gradually train your body to achieve more from those positions.

[@fancyhitchpin8675]

I don't know how to /S any harder.

[@WilliamsWrestlin]

Relax your eyes - sheer brilliance

[@blackphoenix8932]

Exercises in & of themselves don't create imbalances, imbalanced programs create imbalances.

[@TheFBerger]

Wont stop me from going to failure 1 top set per exercise then having 1-3 back off sets where i go to about 2-5 RIR depending on rep range

[@wherethewildthingsarenot]

Excellent video

[@nicksmith-chandler458]

Single leg 90 degree leg press for time trial/triathlon cycling is the secret sauce of strength work. Imbalances yes!

[@vicapple6663]

Lol I'd love to see Ben Patrick breakdown Eric Boogz lifts. Also would love to see Boogz on the pod

[@epicpopularguy]

Haven't watched Mark since the crossovers with Omar Isuf years ago. The Omniman look is terrific for branding.

[@getstrongby4038]

Looks ridiculous

[@xbeast666]

Im a beginner with bad form, and i injured my knees, im trying so hard to master the technique.

[@TheDanishDuke]

That mustache is fuckin' golden maaan! :D Great vid guys!

[@hsstdatabot]

Pain isn’t always necessarily bad, you can’t treat an affected area w PT exercises w/o pain

[@nikvanscoyk4427]

I squat 90 degrees at the hips not at the knees. Been liking those KOT zercher squats Nsima did!

[@DiamorphineDeath]

Haven’t seen you in awhile Mark, that ‘stache is radical dude!

[@Yupppi]

Isn't 90 degree angle for example in squat the most stressful point for the joints? Personally I'd choose any other angle to hold in squat with heavy weight.

[@Mdice1]

A guy by the name Dr. Igor Burdenko from the former Soviet Union prioritized balance, flexibility, coordination, and endurance over strength, speed, and power in terms of a sustainable body and injury prevention. He used to work with / rehab high level US athletes back in the 80$ and 90s. He is the inventor of the "Burdenko Method". Worth checking out. Lots of bands and water and pain free ROM etc

[@Fondrom]

Joel Seedman and Ben Patrick are both highly educated individuals who know what they're doing, neither has found a 'gold standard' if you sift through the comment sections you'll find people with stories on how the ATG principle has helped them, or how 90deg principles have helped them..

[@vladimirknezevic909]

I think Joel Seedman took biomechanics too literally, 90⁰angle is where you generate most torque, so he trains in that angle

[@DrGammaMindset]

2.18 what deadlift does he do if he starts at a 90 degree angle..

[@hugehairyfetus]

Lmao, was wondering the same. Maybe like an RDL?

[@aaronjones3363]

The trap bar deadlift in the video shows close to a 90 degree angle at the knee

[@roadto200kgdeadlift]

ATG 💪🏽🇬🇧

[@nate665]

I squat ass to grass on my warm up sets and 90 degrees (well, parallel) on my working sets. That way I get some work on things activated by going lower, but I can also push more weight on my working set.

[@gilbertgurney4898]

I put atg at the end when my body is warm from work sets and do 1/4 or 1/8 sq to warm with @4x25.

[@TurnTheStoveOnBlaze]

Just stop being scared & atg all of it. Ass to grass will always transfer over to 90 degrees.

[@nate665]

@@TurnTheStoveOnBlaze Yes, but I’d rather get the activation of the heavier weight on the part down to parallel than have to use a lower weight for ATG, again I use ATG on all warmups, so maybe 90% of working set on the last warmup.

[@1234Cheesus]

This makes no sense. Just admit it it! It’s painful and will destroy your ego to ATG working sets (Full ROM is harder and plates will be coming off the bar) and coming up with some convoluted reasoning for it. There’s not much reason to cut ROM

[@nate665]

@@1234Cheesus It makes complete sense. JUST below parallel is also how Mark Rippetoe teaches the squat. I’m deviating from his method when I do ATG on the warmup sets.

[@anijkd]

So, what’s the conclusion? 90 degrees or extreme range of motion or both?

[@daverice23]

Extreme ends of rom. Shorten lengthen the muscle to the maximum

[@Football__Junkie]

10:30 the best exercises in my opinion are a) are difficult with a low weight (like split squats) and b) provide a natural stretch (like RDLs or chest fly’s)

[@sonnyduhasian]

One word. Consistency

[@Shadowserpant00]

lol we gon' need some more words bro

[@overlorddvst80r31]

Edward Norton dishing out solid info now aswell ....

[@Zach-lv5qs]

2:30 It's nothing new. Think of the saying "the best lifters/bodybuilders make the lightest weight feel heavy." I often use the squat as an example because the soreness of a first time squatter is unmistakable and notorious. Think about how uncommon it is for someone to have their hips at or below their knees. It is very uncommon... UNLESS YOU'RE SITTING. Why is this significant? Because the *FIBERS* that are active in that position (hips at or below parallel) are dormant in most people. When sitting, you may be in that position, but there is zero activation; there is zero TUT (time under tension) for those fibers in most people. This is the argument many have against going heavy even if they can't exactly explain the concept. The vast majority of people don't need much weight to provide an overloading stimulus to fibers such as the ones that are recruited when the hips are at or below parallel. I think people are making a mistake in comprehending what this guy is advocating and that is what can cause injury. You are NOT training joints. You train your muscles which manipulate joint angles. Resistance can be compounded/amplified by placing joints at mechanically disadvantageous positions. In that case, you should use less weight. It's simple physics. The force of gravity is straight down. Therefore, the hardest part of a standing barbell curl is not the top of the motion, but when the lever arms (ulna and radius in this exercise) are perpendicular to the force of gravity. He's simply advocating for controlling a full range of motion, and significantly lightening the load. Young people can absolutely improve with this. For health professionals who may work with clients who have had knee replacements, wore down cartilage, etc, this is simply not applicable. Like all training, specificity is still king... or queen if you're for the matriarchy.

[@Mr.Kee-C]

I wonder how Mark Bell's mustache is doing?

[@limitisillusion7]

I played baseball as a catcher for 15 years and it only feels right if I squat deep because I've been using that full range of motion for so long. Maybe my knee will be fucked later in life, but I can't predict these things.

[@micahasher7600]

Maybe not. Maybe your knees will have more longevity

[@aic9235]

I think for that it comes from the extreme exposure to that full range of motion. Cause i caught for about 6 years and i feel like it’s the fact you are in a deep squat for several minutes at a time as opposed to just utilizing it in a training session in the gym

[@LoveLikeaHurricane]

i suspect your knee is more protected because you go through those range of motions, in the context of good form.

[@salientrogue3117]

Anything/anyone that shits on Joel Seedman’s bullshit and snake oil fitness advice gets a +1 from me.

[@yungyames8l882]

The thumbnail looks like an older version of cbum

[@user-rc3kf2pf3l]

👍🏼

[@Joel-5747]

90 degree angle is optimal for strength. When fibers get stronger at 90 degrees they will also be able to tolerate greater force at a smaller angle. However, the motor/cns component that informs strength at the given angle also needs to be trained to produce output. There is a specific tissue adaptation vs global function tradeoff... You MUST be specific about your lens/goals SPECIFICITY!

[@maktiki]

Use it or lose it.

[@dustinrenoth1453]

It’s called wolfes law

[@flushing_queens4827]

More like Joel SNEEDman

[@jeramiahbowles2692]

Using joe Rogans thumbnail style

[@Joel-5747]

Going the wrong route when you say PTs appreciate the specificity in my opinion... Why break down a movement in isolation when the body acts as a global organism? You must train globally if you're looking for the organism to create optimal adaptations... Although there is value in discovery of proprioceptive, kinesthetic and interoceptive awareness via isolation

[@LarsTheSailorMan]

People in fitness and strength and conditioning need to quit trying so hard to reinvent the wheel and go back to what the greats were doing 50+ years ago. You want the holy grail for strength and power development, it’s all there.

[@requiemdexter]

If anyone doubts the 90 degree principle, I recommend holding horse stance with perfect technique for 3-4 minutes.

[@MrCmon113]

Lol, why squat at all? Just do horse stance. Why benchpress? Just hold a plank with 90° arm angle.

[@joh_kun5530]

Even for its purpose of "rooting" or training the position before which you sprawl, it's not exactly that great. 3-4 minutes for a set is way too long and most movements are too dynamic or are better off being trained dynamically for the horse stance to really train properly. I mean I guess as something to take your mind off or to train bodyweight stability and control but that's about it. There's a reason even Chinese wrestlers barely do them anymore.

[@requiemdexter]

Not saying to do it all the time, or even often, I should have been more clear.

[@patrickmcdonagh539]

Don't some people just have shitty knees

[@masonmalaguti3463]

Possibly but lots of people do the wrong things to fix it

[@BrandynMakes]

A calculation needs guys should start a crowdfund for a double bond study commission for all of his theories that are not quite substantiated enough to be widely respected in the medical community and compelling for those who wish to change their workouts.

[@sipsimies1588]

Yeah just relax your eyes and your squat max will increase 10 fold

[@dessertstorm7476]

why do people always make excuses for seedman? Oh it only applies to athletes who are too rushed to train properly (wut?) ... Oh it only applies to you try to progress to fast... enough Just say it, he's full of shit

[@jessejordan8116]

Love how they have to pretend to respect what that charlatan said. Awesome.

[@tedp9945]

Who would win in a fight! Dr. Seedyman or smallquadsoversmallcalves guy?

[@StolenPixel]

Why the fuck would anyone give a fuck about that and what the fuck does that have to do with the content they’re discussing? Neither one of them trains fighters. Not everything involving men boils down to fighting , stop being so low level

[@DiamorphineDeath]

Oh noes, hyper aggressive response to an obvious joke comment. Oh boy, calm that estrogen rage down there chief, you might accidentally sprain a finger on the keyboard typing some passionately

[@StolenPixel]

@@DiamorphineDeath whatever demons your battling you'll win one day. keep your head up king. having a 2 inch penis is not a big deal

[@benjameshowden]

@@StolenPixel 2 max

[@alca_pwn_2232]

The guy in the middle makes no fucking sense if you listen to his words.

[@yew2oob954]

The major fallacy in this is that by going by "what hurts" and then scaling it back you ignore the fact that the structures that are damaged in this type of training do not send "ouch" signals. There is no ligamentous structure that proprioceptively tells you it's too much. You can not "scale back" sissy squats until they "don't hurt" and say it's good for the knee...that's not how the knee works.

[@michaelpfeil9882]

Oh yea? Pls tell me how the knee works man .. would love to hear your insight 😃

[@yew2oob954]

@@michaelpfeil9882 I already did...read my comment above.

[@micahasher7600]

100%. Anyone who knows the human body, also knows that they can be silent protesters.

[@brunomj1997]

knees over toes >

[@yew2oob954]

@@brunomj1997 Yeah...keep believing that. 🙄

[@taylorcleblanc]

12 thumbs down...this must have challenged their false knowledge of fitness.

[@ShepherdschapelYTexplainsbible]

Shepherdschapelcom Theseasonorg 1 KNOW that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23 2. UNDERSTAND the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23 3. CONFESS that Jesus Christ is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead. Romans 10:9 4. REPENT of your sins Luke 13:3 5. READ and STUDY God's Word to show yourself approved. 2 Timothy 2:15 6. PUT ON the whole armor of God. Ephesians 6:11 7. BEWARE of the son of perdition who is coming first disguised as Jesus to oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, or worshipped. 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4 8. WATCH and PRAY until the true Christ returns Luke 12:37 Remain as a chaste virgin waiting for her true husband(Christ) 2 Corinthians 11:2

[@jevgenirusai9069]

Algorithm comment.

[@armyofyoung]

My orthopedic surgeons bank account likes knees over toes...

[@Tinfoiledhat]

Lol knees should push over the toes when doing a proper squat. Powerlifters are retarded and sit back causing actually more stress on the knees and low back.

[@StolenPixel]

Actually he wouldn’t cause he would rather surgically correct your shit rather than you doing therapy. Congrats on making a retarded comment

[@armyofyoung]

@@Tinfoiledhat true statement

[@abcdefgh4404]

So this guy is throwing out more than 50 years of science based on his own experiencie of knee angles ? Hahahaha Come on dude…what worked for you does not mean that works for the Rest of the world

[@ciresemaht1271]

Science always gets thrown out with new discoveries.

[@abcdefgh4404]

@@ciresemaht1271 A one guy experience ? Against scientific papers using hundreds of samples

[@aaronjones3363]

What science is he throwing out? After watching most of his videos, he seems to know the literature quite well.

[@alexp8785]

@@aaronjones3363 "knows the literature" taking the title and hypothesis of a study and ignoring the conclusions which actively disprove what youre saying isn't rly being familiar with the literature.

[@Shadowserpant00]

it working for a fuckton of people, including me. and that 50 years of science you're talking about only fucked up my knees and back more