Mass Effect 2: Let Me Earn My Failures | Castle Super Beast Clips

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@A_D_Art

[@OmusKnowsAll]

I love Pat's analogy of the Reapers driving to your house to beat your ass.

[@sleepythemis]

From Texas. On a bus.

[@OmusKnowsAll]

@Peachy Primrose lol, what is Texas, the dark space of the U.S.

[@Alexielx99]

I am gonna assume they expected people to think about narratively who should be left behind for holding that line. From a narrative standpoint, Grunt's loyalty mission shows he should be left behind because that sequence of holding out against a thresher maw proved Grunt could do it. When you went to get Garrus, he was holding out against the three biggest gangs in the Terminus systems and they had to work together to have a chance at him. Zaeed counts just because from talking to him that man survives things no matter how screwed the situation gets.

[@cbhensoncbhenson5515]

Where did this idea that Garrus is vital for the hold the line section come from. Last I checked when you look at the raw numbers under the hood, Garrus’s “Combat ability number” that helps determine who lives and dies is only 6th highest.

[@JameboHayabusa]

@@cbhensoncbhenson5515 the idea? Narratively. I picked him for holding the line playing through blind and had a perfect run.

[@absoul112]

@@cbhensoncbhenson5515 Because there are multiple sites online that say Garrus has a "hold the line score" equal to Grunt and Zaeed

[@cbhensoncbhenson5515]

@@absoul112 Interesting. So today I just learned that the game informer guide for the suicide mission I read as a teenager was full of shit. They assumed the death order corresponded to hold the line capability. The more you know I guess.

[@Alexielx99]

@@cbhensoncbhenson5515 That 6th highest means he will die in the hold the line segment after Mordin/Tali/Kasumi/Jack/Miranda/Jacob (if they have not died already and are all there obviously). But he is worth 4 points (if loyal) along with Zaeed and Grunt for calculating the average defense score needed. Meaning one of those three has to hold the line. He's not the only one who is vital for that segment in that sense. I was just saying how Bioware laid out those three characters as vital options from a narrative standpoint.

[@TheChainsaw105]

I don't remember where I heard this but my favorite rationalization of why you should send Mordin with the crew, from a roleplaying/story perspective, is that Mordin is a doctor and thus capable of treating any wounded and also a former member of the STG and is capable of being real sneaky if he has to. The Collectors are probably more focused on stopping Shepard than anything else, so Mordin should have a smaller amount of grunts to sneak past. Maybe I'm crazy but that's how I like to internalize it.

[@shotguncrucifix]

Chakwas is a doctor. They don't need two. Send Kasumi or Jacob since they're the lamest, personality-wise.

[@unversedhero6028]

That's pretty much it, also, Chakwas is a doctor too, but she is currently one of the victims that just went through a traumatic experience which might affect her work.

[@TheChainsaw105]

@@shotguncrucifix She may be a doctor but she's also weary and weakened from nearly being gooped

[@Manfromthenorth0551]

@@TheChainsaw105 She's also old and has served on ships for her entire career, she's not a combat medic. Sure she can wield a gun, but she's not a literal former spec-ops like Mordin.

[@Lazypackmule]

Or you could just send literally anyone because that choice doesn't really matter and only alters the math for the next choice

[@MrCheese1338]

From a narrative standpoint, it is interesting that Mordin is completely useless in the Suicide Mission because ultimately he was only recruited to make his countermeasure against the seeker swarms. Obviously he's still gonna come along to the mission itself but his recruitment purpose was checked off at Horizon.

[@TheKnizzine]

Earth not having a unifed government but still has intergalatic travel and colonies and shit is the most realistic part of Mass Effect. Its the "with black jack and hookers" mentality.

[@Nabs-xd2qr]

Genuinely. Was interesting to see.

[@Quist115]

How could someone play all of the second game and not even realize that the Reapers are awake, and actively orchestrating their plan? Lmao

[@CrypticSquid1]

I direct you to Woolie's entire playthrough of 13 Sentinels and his miraculous capacity to misremember critical information from dialogue he'd just been told.

[@diegomedina9637]

"Woolie, it's a gun"

[@CaffeinatedKing]

I'm a little confused on what he thought Harbinger was suppose to be if not an indication of the other Reapers being awake. But I will say though, he and Reggie were talking during the ending shot of the Reapers approaching the galaxy and I figured it wasn't clicking for him at the time.

[@mor3gan285]

@Caffeinated King it took me until the end of the game to figure out harbinger is a reaper and alive but then it all clicked. Originally, I thought it was another reaper stored away like sovereign

[@kapkant6197]

Woolie comparing the hidden values at the end of Mass Effect 2 determining survival whereas Mass Effect 1 it's all very clear and feeling that it wasn't in his control reminds me of the vitriol towards Morgana in Persona 5. The whole "let's go to sleep" thing comes off more infuriating because it's another character basically ordering you, despite this Persona 3 and 4 have almost equal amounts of this, but it doesn't feel as bad because it's instead your character telling themselves they are too tired.

[@ManOfAnswers]

Best thing Royal did was give you options to do instead of instant go to sleep.

[@kapkant6197]

@@ManOfAnswers Personally I would've replaced it with an option to spiral Morgana like a football, but that works too

[@JoseRS1186]

Yeah I imagine. I quit that game after the 80th "GO TO SLEEP." That game has no respect for anyone's time. Just play a cutscene. I dont understand why P5 has theses hour long narratives with fake player input. Why give player control when all you can do between monologues is go to your bed, or open a door, or walk two steps and hit X on a third person entering the conversation. I've never seen an RPG on worse rails and that is actively psyching you out into thinking it is going to let you play the game and then not.

[@Limit02]

@@JoseRS1186 sounds like a skill issue

[@Limit02]

@@kapkant6197 imagine if instead of the grappling hook you chucked Morgana to hard to reach places while he’s holding a rope

[@danpascooch]

Don't be so hard on yourself Woolie! You earned those failures fair and square.

[@stelardactek]

He sure did :P The game could have blatantly telegraphed it if it wanted to, but I feel like the part where characters tell you "whoever you don't take will guard the door" *should* be enough of a hint.

[@cbhensoncbhenson5515]

Nah bro. The Hold the Line system is garbage. You literally lower your chances of everyone surviving by recruiting Kasumi. It’s genuinely bad game design and Woolie’s salt is 100% justified.

[@flamesbaldwin108]

I accidentally kept my entire ME2 crew alive by sheer luck and guesswork. Got the achievement and was shocked I pulled it off. But I was fully prepared to fail!

[@RedCaesar97]

Same here. And I even sent Grunt back to escort the crew. I did not find out about the "hold the line" mechanics until later, which I then used to kill off various squadmates in later playthroughs.

[@RyuGuitarFreak]

I only lost one because of the stupid rivalries that disruspt loyalty.

[@SoaringLettuce]

Same. I sent Mordin back with the survivors because I trusted the STG veteran to keep them safe and took Tali on my team to the end. It was sheer luck.

[@housetraitor4806]

@@RyuGuitarFreak same and it was my romance of Miranda because I sided with Jack on an accidental press and just rolled with it because I still got the romance cutscene

[@TheLurker1647]

Lucky Ted strikes again! Oh boy, that sure was lucky!

[@SoaringLettuce]

MASS EFFECT 3 SPOILER DON'T READ THIS WOOLIE. Oh god I just remembered something. In the KOTOR 1 LP, when talking about the Starforge, Woolie explained how much he hates when "you get to the plot critical thing, and it's a child" so ME3 is gonna be FUN.

[@Inojin67]

And then he gets to the dlc where the reaper tells you the opposite of everything the ghost kid says

[@Michael-bn1oi]

@@Inojin67 but it doesn't change anything.

[@SoaringLettuce]

@@jak2492 except *we* are Shepard and we already stopped to listen to Vigil on Ilos.

[@MattManDX1]

Isn't that "child" just Harbinger in disguise trying to mislead you though? He might appreciate the general dickery of the main villain trying to pull that shit.

[@iMoD190]

@SpaceBird I still think it's dumb that, regardless of your choices, Shepard is always so haunted by the death of a single child. after all the shit you go through and the thousands of deaths that you are directly involved in, it's silly that one nameless kid becomes the symbol of your torment.

[@1215298]

6:20 Yeah, that situation was going back with the crew: it literally says in his bio on that part you read: "Expert in biology" "Prefers working in his lab on ship rather than fighting" There's literally no one better to send back to assess the crew and despite what you're arguing, the game does hint and indicate this is the case.

[@predetor69]

For me it was You send in Legion because he's a robot so hacking is like breathing equivalent to a human Garrus leads the fire team because he's been with you since 1 Jack holds the shield because she's unironically built for this specific thing distraction team is Jacob because nobody pays attention to him Mordin escort because I just like him Zaeed holds the line because he's just the coolest

[@rosenrot234]

I remember picking Jack for the shield part because I wanted her to have a cool victory.

[@Michael-bn1oi]

Nailed it. Just makes sense

[@serdash6548]

See here's the thing that you're missing. You, figures, used logic. Woolz don't do that shit. Woolz's decisions are based on a completely different salt-fueled reality happening in his head

[@Nabs-xd2qr]

Jacob and Miranda were sooooo boring its unreal

[@XXDragonZr0]

Red would've done it perfect.

[@guardiansparky1766]

Red would've talked the collectors into bed

[@Muninnnr]

Letting some (or if you're really determined) most of the crew die in ME2 can lead to some funny and interesting sequences in ME3 and I do recommend that people try it out just to see the changes. But not for your first run through the trilogy. The first time through, you make sure to keep that whole crew alive for ME3 so that you can get the full intended experience. Once you've done that, you can start bumping people off in order to see what happens when they aren't around in ME3.

[@zerwif]

I bet some people were super confused that you are given the option to recruit Chloe Michel and dump Chakwas. For some Shepard, it is the only option.

[@helter1234]

It is really hard to get Chakwas killed. I think the only time I ever got her and everyone else killed was when I sprinted to the IFF and then put Legion in my party for every mission I could before the collector base.

[@whensomethingcriesagain]

Except vent master Jacob, him you can forget about

[@cuddlemore2173]

I sent Mordin with the survivors cuz i thought they might need medical attention :P

[@king_big_pp]

This always made the most sense to me

[@deltaprime3509]

The title of this got me interested if you want the pain of failure than you got it because if your not paying attention mass effect 2’s last mission will kick your butt. Good luck

[@cbhensoncbhenson5515]

Hot take here. I honestly think when the dust has settled, Woolie will be more salty about this moment than the ME3 ending.

[@serdash6548]

Agreed, Woolie gets way more salty when he does something wrong

[@buckmoonmedia5113]

Pat's story of people making four separate save files reminded me of the absurdly high expectations I had for the Witcher trilogy. Luckily, I didn't get the urge to make additional saves from 1 onwards

[@apostateCourier]

Mordin IS squishy in gameplay. Grunt, Garrus, and Zaeed all have the highest health values and survive insane shit through the game's narrative. Plenty of logic to having to put them on the line.

[@otakon17]

Yeah but then there's stuff that doesn't check out. Like, Zaeed was a mercenary leader of the Blue Suns for a long time yet if you have him lead the second fireteam, people will die. The only correct choices are Garrus and Jacob IIRC.

[@apostateCourier]

@@otakon17 With Zaeed, all of his stories end with him as the only survivor. He got usurped and the Blue Suns flourished under new management. If you picked him to lead, you fucked up.

[@cbhensoncbhenson5515]

Cool now explain why recruiting Kasumi lowers your odds of everyone surviving.

[@apostateCourier]

@@cbhensoncbhenson5515 She's absolutely shit at teamwork. Next question.

[@lweaver2988]

​@@cbhensoncbhenson5515 because her special ability is to turn invisible and let everyone else take more fire while she hides. Like she's a great thief sure, but taking a cat burglar on a suicide mission, is suicide.

[@TDShadow079]

It just occurred to me, as someone who has played ME2 since 2013, that the "Hold the Line" check is basically the game trying really really hard to remind you it's still an RPG of some kind. Honestly in terms of adding more context, all they really needed to do is have one of your team members go "Not to sound selfish, but you're taking a lot of firepower. Maybe leave some of here." and then obfuscate it as the "Would you like to take this party into the final boss? Y/N" ME1 kinda also had that problem with Ilos going directly into the Citadel with no way to change party members, meaning if you wanted just one last hurrah with a party member prior to your usual go-to, you're just kinda stuck with them.

[@charlestonobryant807]

To be fair, it's kinda made clear Ilos is the point of no return for the game, so that's not really that big of a problem imo

[@xenodile]

The only indication that you HAVE to send Mordin with the survivors to keep him alive, is a single throwaway line in a very early conversation where Shepard mentions working with Kirrahe, to which Mordin replies "Never liked that 'hold the line' attitude, always preferred to get in, do mission, go home". ONE line of dialogue is the only in game clue that Mordin will not survive the holdout battle how many hours later.

[@rosenrot234]

That's what I thought of when I got to that point in the game. So that saved Mordin for me lol

[@RavenCloak13]

I didn't remember that because man, I just went "he a doctor, better to send with the other people" so yeah made sense to me.

[@FrozenOver0]

Not only that, but on a blind run, you DON'T KNOW that a moment of "hold the line" will come until after you've had the discussion of who to send back with the crew. It's really not in the player's favor.

[@apostateCourier]

It's such a keystone conversation, though. "Mordin doesn't vibe with holding battle lines" is an important detail for a CO to file away, and guess what you're the CO.

[@RavenCloak13]

@@FrozenOver0 Yes you do. You know from the jump your going on a suicide mission and spending all game PREPARING for it. Your getting people with different backgrounds and special skills to help. A hold the line scenario makes way too much sense to happen.

[@jonslamlee6539]

Am i the only who got a perfect run first try? I maxed out loyalty for all members and just thought of who in the story would be best for this situation and it went through fine

[@Kite403]

Similar experience for me as well. I maxed everyone's loyalty out of paranoia lol

[@piercingmoon24]

In my first playthrough, Jack died because she's not loyal. First ME game I played was 2, so I didn't have an imported save. Sent Jacob to escort the crew, and brought Garrus and Miranda to fight the final boss.

[@unversedhero6028]

Nope, many of us did, chat basically one guy'd Woolie into believing that everyone fails at the ending.

[@_Maroi]

It was the same for me back in the day. No GameFAQs, no IGN, just went through and totally nailed it. Hell, ahead of time I kinda saw it coming that the loyalty would come into play somehow for the final mission; and hoped that it meant they get to live through the, "We're all going to die." section everyone was hyping up in-game. So I purposely helped everyone except Miranda hoping it meant she'd somehow die. Everything went according to plan and I made it to Mass Effect 3 with everyone except her still alive.

[@pmw1993]

I just got lucky because I liked bringing Tali and Miranda to the boss fight. I never even knew there was a Hold the Line score that could get people killed until Woolie's playthrough. Played through the series like 5 times.

[@23kurtzy]

I always sent Mordin because he was a Doctor. I think Pat and Woolie just can’t stop overthinking tiny decisions.

[@CrimsonKamina]

Personally I think the best way to handle the last loyalty check with the jump would to have the loyalty check happen earlier while escaping the base, have a moment where there’s a fork in the road or some thing where in all the chaos a non loyal squad mate questions Shepard judgement and rubs off trying to save themselves instead of following Shepard

[@valeria262]

Do non loyal members actually die during the jump to the shuttle? I thought they died when the platforms collide and you get knocked out for a moment

[@sheridanmovieguy]

@@valeria262 They die in the crash after the boss fight. When you go to pick them up they're dead. Pat was wrong about them falling into the void.

[@CrimsonKamina]

@@sheridanmovieguy crazy talk strikes again

[@JakB001]

Back when this first came out before there was a guide, I did it perfectly my first try, mostly because I did every single little thing before the final mission. Obviously, Kelly and the rest of the crew got melted cause of that dumb time mechanic lol but the cues they give you for the suicide mission are very clear, in my opinion. You need someone to hack? Pick Tali or Legion. You need someone to put up a barrier? Use Jack or Samara/Morinth. You need someone to go help the crew? Mordin can do that and help heal them. Gotta hold the line? Garrus or Grunt or any strong soldier type character got it. Need a leader? Miranda and Garrus are great leaders. I dunno, I didn't watch the playthrough but I know Woolie is pretty good at taking notes and paying attention to details like that, but I also know it's easy to misinterpret certain things! No worries, even if this feels like Johns lol

[@Serahpin]

Woolie is nearly blind and deaf when he does these lets plays. It's actually a little concerning when he listens to the same dialogue three times without noticing that he's listened to it before. He just does not pay attention. I did it right when I played through this part and didn't know you could lose people, too. This is all cope for his not paying attention.

[@miguelnewmexico8641]

@@Serahpin you lost me at the end when you used that word as a noun.

[@dozencatfish1667]

I love this game and this mission. People saying that sending *Mordin* with the crew is the logical choice are fucking lying to themselves. The crew need to be defended by ONE person. It makes zero sense to send the weakest person to defend dozens of people alone. It's totally counterintuitive that the game decides this is the easiest job to do, it should be the hardest by far.

[@SvarogAristaeusAllen]

Welcome to streamer tax, he's so worried about holding a conversation and paying attention to chat and trying to entertain that the actual game comes fourth on the list of priorities. He can't let himself sit and think and mull over stuff because he's gotta hit that next beat.

[@1215298]

@dozencatfish You mean the guy with the profile that says he prefers being on a ship-lab working rather than fighting verbatim? That he shouldn't be escorting the crew through the already cleared section you fought through minutes before whilst the main force is going in *the opposite direction* to attack your heavy hitters who have to stand in the way of their bullets? You think that escorting a dozen people (who as demonstrated earlier in the Normandy kidnap cutscene have some level of military and combat training, albeit not specialist level) through that is harder then guarding a static position that you can't leave whilst a few dozen metres from a bottleneck and being assaulted by Scions, Praetorians and other heavy units? And would rather put the weakest member in that position?

[@MAJR172]

Spoilers Woolie is gonna be so pissed when he finds out the main threat of 3 is Cerberus, and rightfully so.

[@king_big_pp]

He'll be pissed about the Crucible too. Holy shit what a disaster. At least Citadel makes up for it by being pure uncut fan service.

[@SciontheDark]

@@king_big_pp I can see him picking the new Reject non-ending, because I was a fool and picked it too. I thought Bioware would let me reason with its bullshit in the new ending. I was wrong.

[@theNEWMASKSdudexxx]

To be fair he's gonna hate most of 3

[@tylerlackey1175]

I'm gonna make a prediction- when woolie finishes me3 and starts talking about the game bending over and squriting shit in his face, 20% of his comment section is going to be contrarians defending it. When he talks about it on the podcast and the clip gets uploaded here, it'll be 50% That's just how npcs operate

[@SoaringLettuce]

The fact that with the war going on, I think 3 is the one where you learn the least about the galaxy, that was annoying. He's gonna love Javik tho, that's for sure.

[@artdog0100]

In both of the send someone with the crew moments Woolie was over-talking the game. That's why he missed out on what was going on? It's obvious to send Mordin (a doctor) back with the people who needed medical attention.

[@mattaardsma8245]

Wait till you see ME3: Citadel. It is Shadow Broker on steroids. It's arguably too self aware, but I love it.

[@theArtbringer]

If I remember correctly, and I might not be as I haven't played ME2 in ages, unloyal team members you take to the final boss actually die, from dumber reasons, after it drops the platform you're standing on. One team member you turn them over as they're face down near a platform ledge and they're just dead and the other dies after Shepard pulls some rubble off them. Personally, I don't think whether they're loyal or not should factor into them surviving a bit of rubble landing on them.

[@DeepestDankest]

Yeah, Pat got it wrong here. There's no dramatic run to the Normandy and they get gunned down or fuck up a leap, they just straight up die by being crushed by Collector patented hexagon platforms.

[@e-rankluck2594]

I always send Mordin back with the crew because they were injured and he's the doctor man....lizard...frog.

[@rosenrot234]

I think back then my first playthru of ME2 I sent Mordin with the ship crew because I figured he'd eyeroll at all the Hold the Line stuff. Since he mentioned the whole Hold the Line speech from the first game and just preferring to get the job done and go home. I didn't learn he could super die til after I finished the game.

[@SciontheDark]

I don't see the Hold the Line score as a hidden secret thing, you're deciding who to back you up, and the game does say that the people behind will have to hold off enemies. It's a fine choice that Bioware didn't explain properly.

[@Bludingoable]

Zach hazard still stands as the funniest instance of someone passing the suicide mission first time because he actively hated the game while playing it and still somehow got the best outcome.

[@dahakaguardianofthetimelin4780]

Woolie: "Okay... So I've got to pick my team of three to fight Darkseid while the rest hold an army of infinite Doomsdays off. Okay, sounds like a job for Superman, Flash and Wonder Woman to me..." Game: "You've thrashed Darkseid's whole face, but because you left them behind all by themselves Gypsy, Huntress, General Glory, Cluemaster and Wildcat got mauled by Doomsdays. Maybe you should've left a heavyweight to prevent that from happening?" Woolie: "See, I don't feel responsible for those deaths, because the game didn't ask me which characters I wanted to die and I didn't choose for them to die. We all know my reasoning is flawless so if I reason myself into a choice - that choice is the correct one and if the game doesn't work that way - it's a design flaw. I don't feel like those deaths were deserved and, from what I've heard, General Glory's character arc in Snyder Effect 3 is some of the best writing in fiction so I'm going to redo this."

[@shotguncrucifix]

The hidden system was dumb and arbitrary

[@unversedhero6028]

@@shotguncrucifix Only if you didn't pay attention.

[@dahakaguardianofthetimelin4780]

@@shotguncrucifix I agree, characters like Tali and Mordin are just screaming "Hold the line" tanks at the first glance. Mass Effect 3 should've ended with Mordin just fending off the Reaper horde by singing them all into self-destruction

[@phoneyphil5663]

@@dahakaguardianofthetimelin4780 You're obviously joking about that singing bit, but I'd pay to see that.

[@fillosof66689]

@@dahakaguardianofthetimelin4780 Mordin was a part of galaxy's second best spec ops organization, kills entire squads of seasoned mercs without breaking a sweat and has confirmed kills on Krogans in melee. I know the devs continue to forget that he is supposed to be a badass on top of being a quirky scientist, Lord knows they flanderized him hard in ME3. But he is supposed to be a badass.

[@Smrt927]

I lost some people on my first playthrough because i believed Jacob when he was like "i can totally do biotics" or whatever

[@valeria262]

That was Miranda, Jacob says he can do the tech part

[@Smrt927]

@@valeria262 it's been a while. I just remember going "oh you mother effer"

[@valeria262]

@@Smrt927 yeah that sucks because both those choices get other people killed unlike a bad fireteam leader who dies themselves

[@Hammerhead0276]

Jacob hilariously will pretty much fail literally any job he is given, its much easier to just babysit him yourself

[@valeria262]

@@Hammerhead0276 no he's a good pick for fireteam leader alongside Miranda and Garrus. To be fair to him, he only asks to be the tech expert because he notes it alone is a suicide mission for whoever is sent

[@HeavenlyBrush]

When ME2 came out i was kinda obsessed with the game, beating it dozens of times with different classes and weapons and i legit never even knew there was some sort of hidden math involved with hold the line segment. I've always send jacob back with the crew and brought miranda/random with me to the final boss and i've never had someone loyal die holding the line. On my first playthrough i'm pretty certain miranda died after the boss fight because before dlc's came out you straight up didn't have enough paragon/renegade points if you ever deviated to clear the second check. DLC's largely fixed that problem, but i do think those checks just shouldn't even be there. Also non loyal squad members you bring to the final boss fight will die but it's not in the way pat described, basically once you kill the boss the platform collapses and after the cut the three of you are lying on the ground, one squad member under the debris and the other to the side. Loyal squad members will get up slightly dazed while non loyal will just be dead when shepard checks them. Oh and also i can't not mention cain. I fucking love cain. Hitting final boss with cain may be challenging but fuck me it's satisfying.

[@crimsonking440]

Is it just me or doesn't what their saying at 15:00 completely destroy their own logic for who they brought to the final boss? It's never mattered in gameplay who you brought so everyone was basically equal. That's true. However, in story sequences like cutscenes there was definitely characters who were meant to be just total badasses. You then chose to bring the total badasses in the gameplay squad and left all the normal guy characters in the story section. If you know that first part, why would you choose that way?

[@hurdco7]

First playthrough I had two people die. Jack I believed died because of not having loyalty since I didn't have enough paragon point for the Miranda/Jack argument. I believed she died in holding the line been years so I can't remember exactly. The second person to die was Kasumi since I thought a master Thief would be able to hack her way past security.

[@RedCaesar97]

If Kasumi died after being in the vents, then it was because your fireteam leader was either not a loyal Garrus, Jacob, or Miranda. If loyal, Kasumi, Legion, or Tali can bypass the door in time without dying if the fireteam leader is good.

[@li-limandragon9287]

More RPG endings need to do what Mass Effect 2 does.

[@1wayroad935]

Remember Neverwinter Nights 2 where the game will flip your party on its head if you haven't been paying attention to them?

[@flamesbaldwin108]

I love killing off the party members at the last level. Underrated trope

[@bicksbernd1640]

Shadowrun Hong Kong does something like that

[@fillosof66689]

@@flamesbaldwin108 how about having to bump off the entire party yourself? Lisa the Painful will have you covered for that one.

[@joedatius]

I'm not sure man, the idea is good but in reality the only viable option is just play until you get everyone to live at the end since any of the characters dying in the suicide mission is a net negative to the game and the next game.

[@attackofthecopyrightbots]

35:33 woolie describes the ending to the terminator franchise in the comics

[@thesunisup_]

7:13 Yeah, this is not what happens

[@DatAsuna]

Like a lotta things, Pat has vaguely heard about the other routes but not actually seen them and stuff gets muddled.

[@JoseRS1186]

isn't it that they die under the rubble? Because they didn't believe enough?

[@thesunisup_]

@@JoseRS1186They do

[@conelybiscuit4985]

for anybody who'd like to see the something like the Suicide Mission in other games, where you build your crew and they actually help you with mission-specific functions that affect the plot, i **HIGHLY** recommend Alpha Protocol. as well as just being one of Obsidian's most detailed and plot-divergent games where you're guaranteed to miss like 70% on a first playthrough, there are tons of missions where your friends can do something totally unique and plot-relevant to that mission. like when you're doing a job in a train station and they can show up riding a train with machine guns duct-taped to the side to help you out if it goes bad, or if you're good enough friends (or specific types of enemies) you can call them up to crack a computer so you can get some files that actually change the plot in a semi-significant way. it's like everything is a little mini-Suicide Mission, it's super cool!

[@AliG200]

Oh man, I haven't heard of/thought about Alpha Protocol in a long time. Welp, time to give it another reinstall on steam.

[@Shizn0id]

> Be Woolie > Start a trilogy of games that started in 2007. Avidly fight off spoilers for 15 years > Make a mistake and then cry about it - although this is in practice exactly what you wanted.

[@Archdaemos]

Only responding to the clip title: you did earn them, Woolie. Whether it was fair is another story. About the timer between the IFF and Suicide Mission: if you have loyalty missions left to do, the game gives you up to 2 missions of grace period to get more loyalty before the kidnapped crew is turned to goo. In your playthrough it was just Legion left to gain loyalty, so you only had 1 mission of grace period, doing anything else would have fucked you. If you also had Tali's loyalty to do, you'd have 2 missions. If you had more than 2 people that weren't loyal when you did the IFF mission, you have to pick 2 characters to get loyalty for and then decide between finishing loyalty for the others, or saving crew and risking whoever isn't loyal dying (or more likely you panic and go without anyone else's loyalty, or put off loyalty missions so long that you do them all without thinking there's a real time limit and lose the crew). THIS part is even more obtuse than the Hold The Line points.

[@The5lacker]

I feel like a lot of people drastically overthought the "Send the people to do the task" sections. It's the exact same trifecta of stats from the first game: Combat, Tech, Biotics. There's a Combat challenge (hold the line), a Tech challenge (hack the door), and a Biotic challenge (project the field.) If you send a Tech or Biotics specialist to do the Combat challenge, *of course it will fail.* Also, the framing of the Loyalty missions is terrible, because it's not Loyalty that's the factor, it's *distraction.* If Tali hasn't gone back to the Flotilla, she's still actively thinking about that during the suicide mission, and that divided focus will get her killed. If she distrusts Legion and is focusing on making sure he isn't going to kill you all, *that divided focus will also get her killed.* It's not a matter of how Loyal she is to you personally, it's a matter of her focus on the mission at hand. But because it's all *framed* as Loyalty to you personally, it feels *incredibly stupid.*

[@charlesdaugherty321]

Save editor can reset the final mission counter. This lets you have fun with Legion.

[@Legacy0901]

I agree that the parameters that choice decides by could have been telegraphed a BIT better, but I also think being too transparent is equally bad or even worse - a little subtlety and ambiguity go a long way. The majority of checks are either an obvious binary 'did you buy the upgrade/is the squadmate loyal' check, or a 'should you put the star shaped puzzle piece into the star shaped hole' problem. Asking that you critically think about which teammate is a good leader adds welcome ambiguity since you could make a decent argument for most of the roster but there are still teammates who are clearly at the top of that list, and the same could be said about deciding who will be in charge of making a stand. Woolie's argument that 'well in cutscene the character is weak whereas in gameplay they are all equally strong' also doesn't hold water because if he truly believes that then he SHOULD have taken the weakest teammates with him because the teammates in Shephard's personal squad will participate in gameplay whereas EVERYONE he leaves behind will only participate via cutscene.

[@blacklistedpirate4169]

i have to disagree with pat on the point of wanting to take your heaviest hitters with you for the final boss, i mean yes thats normal thinking for a video game but when it comes to mass effect your allies actually rarely ever kill anything in those fights unless you sit back and let them do it 80% of the time you as the player are doing 99% of the work in the fights

[@1215298]

4:10 If there was another party choice after that, it wouldn't make sense: if you only take 2 people, any party choice would potentially have a 10/12 chance of getting it wrong as you leave the other 10 back behind. If you were going to meet up with the other 10 later, then your party choice wouldn't be conditional on who you took.

[@KleinerKokiri]

You are supposed to feel the odds are stacked against you. Hence its called "suicide mission" for a reason. I get it may be frustrating for a playthrough on stream. But back then nobody thought about such things.

[@beanieweenietapioca]

I think this all boils down to the metagame expectation that consequences will always be foregrounded by the decision presented to you. It's "obvious" that sending the wrong person into the vent will kill them, because games have trained us to expect a choice like that to have a direct pass/fail consequence. The Kaiden/Ashley choice is literally a "pick which character you want to die" menu, including a takes-backsies option if you still don't see it coming the first time. Holding the line is an indirect result of two different decisions, neither of which explicitly tells you "BY THE WAY BRUH THIS HAS CONSEQUENCES." You have to be thinking about the indirect effects of what will happen to a group when certain characters are taken away. The game warns you with in-character dialogue, but not with an external gameplay signpost. To be fair, this is also the first time the game does this trick. The rest of ME1 and ME2 gives you clear out-of-character cues about what gameplay effect any of your choices will have. That rug gets pulled out at the end of ME2, and our metagame boy is salty when it happens. Compare this to the "save the crew right away" decision, which arguably does the same thing; but Woolie never had to even consider that decision because he was checking with chat about the optimal quest completion order through the entire game. If he'd been truly playing the game blind, he'd also probably have lost Chakwas et al, and would be complaining that "just one extra side mission" caused them all to die.

[@ThatKid7718]

For escorting the survivors back to the ship I always sent Mordin but I had no idea about the hold the line stats it just made sense to me to send the doctor who is specialized in infiltration and extraction for the injured extraction party. Like the mission described for that choice is almost exactly the scenario of STG infiltrating tuchanka in my mind so he is the only choice that makes sense for thar

[@musoumiko4730]

I remember I ended up saving everyone on complete accident. I sent mordin back with the crew because I assumed they would need medical attention due to being in pods and if I sent anyone else they'd have casualties or whatever, and for the hold the line thing I brought tali and legion cause they were easily my favorite racial tension combo.

[@joedatius]

Over time i think i've lost my rose tinted glasses about ME2s ending. the concept is cool but since this game is heavily reliant on being a trilogy the fact that ME3 completely fumbles with how it handles dead squad mates really makes the Suicide Mission lose any of its intended impact when there is no good reason to continue a save that doesn't have all the companions live. It's almost like having a system where a shit ton of characters can die just leads to writing that just kinda ignores those characters outside of their side mission

[@WakkaMadeInYevon]

On top of that Shepard's choice at the end doesn't even matter. Preserve the reaper tech? Well I guess that egg's on my face. Destroy the Collector base? TiM gets the Reaper tech anyway!

[@joedatius]

@@WakkaMadeInYevon its even dumber about the Reaper tech because he's literally already working with the reapers. "oh good thing they didn't get the reaper tech" meanwhile TiM is filled to the brim with reaper tech

[@WakkaMadeInYevon]

@@joedatius Commander Shepard, as you may know Cerberus' gaming lounge already has a PS4 Pro, but the PS5 just released, and my mother won't buy it for me. I need you to infiltrate the Reaper base and recover it.

[@lolusuck386]

Yeah they really should've saved the suicide mission idea for ME3.

[@Zyemeth0]

Huh. I never had an issue with this part. Legion is a robot and expendable and doesn't die as easily if caught as a quarian so he goes through the vents. Jacob was sent with the crew because he's a good guy and a soldier who I felt would be willing to die to save them if need be. Samara does the shield because she's an incredibly experienced biotic with lots of self control while I saw Jack as a bursting powerhouse more than slow and steady. Garrus leads the fireteam because he's an experienced leader and has the drive to not lose his team like what happened before to keep him on his game. I brought Miranda and Tali with me for the last part since Tali is a tech-expert and Miranda is likely the most briefed on the situation via the Illusive Man who likes to leave key info out from Shep.

[@AdrianArmbruster]

I remember acing the suicide mission within a week of release, before there were proper guides out. It was the best possible feeling ever. RIP to people who don't send their squisy doctor back to the ship to look after the injured crew you just rescued, but I'm different. Pat is wrong about the jump to the ship fyi. Non-loyals who take with you to the final boss die just before the run-away sequence. They don't disloyally fail the last jump.

[@lance5445]

Yeah it's worse, if they aren't loyal they die because rubble falls on them lol, if they are loyal they just climb out

[@kevincullen6627]

Legion was the god damn teaser image of ME2 its fucked you get him 5 minutes before the end of the game

[@Renoistic]

Seems like Woolie and Pat wants the game to basically tell you what every choice does which would be really boring. If you have all the team members, upgrades and full loyalty the final mission is a cakewalk if you're paying attention. He would have made it if he didn't bring all the tank characters to the final battle. Pretty sure he would have made it if he had just left Garrus. It's not the game's fault you're not paying attention. I remember being a little disappointed at how short and easy the mission was. Still a highlight of the series.

[@ryangallagher8194]

Yeah, I feel like if it was so easy that you could tell right away when you make a choice that it'll be fine instead of having to think about it, the game might as well have not even bothered with having the mission's mechanics.

[@saimysilvia]

Last boss is a Nintendo boss. hit the glowing spot.

[@WakkaMadeInYevon]

The Cain cares not for your glowing spot. *Wait, why is it still standing?*

[@thesunisup_]

14:51 Yeah, that’s absolutely not true. When you are on easy then maybe so but not when the game is actually hard. They have different amounts of health, different abilities, etc., they are absolutely not the same.

[@whitegemgames]

5:46 this can’t be true unless the DLC crew mates don’t count because I lost both Zaeed and Kasumi but Mordin survived.

[@Zangelin]

I am shocked. I thought literally everyone got all survive on their first playthrough. Like, I never even knew about this system and I never knew anyone who had domeone die. I send Mordin cause he's a doctor, made sense. I guess I never brought grunt with me in the suicide mission though. Before Woolies playthrough I always thought it was kind of lame how easy it was to get everyone out alive.

[@valeria262]

Yeah I didn't know the hold the line thing actually took into account peoples strengths, I sent samara with the crew and took Garrus an Tali with me, didn't even lose Mordin

[@21powah]

15:30 This reminds me of a good bit of criticism KNIJohn made for Megaman Battle Network 3. The Final Boss has a gimmick that gives him this shield that takes multiple hits to wear down before you can actually damage him. If Megaman's buster isn't fast enough, doesn't have the right charge shot, and if your chip folder has mostly one hit attacks, the boss is virtually unbeatable. So KNIJohn says that in the final level before the last boss, there are mini versions of the final boss that don't share his gimmick, they're just normal ass enemies. If these mini versions did have the same gimmick that could have helped the player lean into a setup that would've let them be better prepared for the final fight.

[@mrchupee]

I wonder if in the first segment all of the second fire team could be chosen to do a defensive action would improve things. Miranda could say 'they'll have to hold long enough for us to cut a way in, we'll need to line up our best shooters'. Then it telegraphs you need heavy hitters when the time might come.

[@aivalera]

Tbf, I think going in with the mindset of "Well I should just take my two combat people" isn't correct either by the game's standards. The game no longer has meters encouraging party make up, but it still expects you to compose a team with balanced moveset with anti-armor and anti-barrier abilities. In my first run I sent Grunt back with the crew, 'cause obviously, but I took Miranda and Mordin with me to the final boss because I was a Soldier, which brought the values up to where everyone survives.

[@jeffreydrozek-fitzwater4649]

Miranda’s buffs makes her the best teammate.

[@Corrector1]

@@jeffreydrozek-fitzwater4649 I read that as "Miranda's butt makes her the best teammate."

[@jeffreydrozek-fitzwater4649]

@@Corrector1 I’m sure there are people with that opinion.

[@CreamCrushed]

The reapers were driving to your house to beat you up, but you put a potato in their tailpipe, so now they’re walking to your house to beat you up.

[@purpleisthesneakiest]

i already said this in the part where he fought the final boss, but i do believe that the hold the line check is the only bad part of the suicide mission because it's not telegraphed when everything else IS telegraphed, so it feels like a bit of a cheap shot if you fail and find out what's happening. it's possible to infer the mechanic, but it's not something that should be expected of anyone playing the game. it should REALLY be telegraphed by giving you a bit of dialogue "we need some roughnecks if we're gonna hold out" or a message in the character selection for that section or something. the rest of the suicide mission feels very earned, and it feels fair to lose people in the rest of the suicide mission. also, pat got it wrong with the loyalty check on the people you bring into the final boss. the non-loyal party members don't die on the jump, they die after you crash, when shepard is checking them under the rubble and picks them up. i will also contest EXTREMELY HEAVILY that mass effect 3 assumes that Mordin is alive, because the replacement content is also extremely strong and it doesn't lock you out of anything. the only thing the game locks you out of is Mordin's presence, which is a huge ask but not something mandatory. the Tali-related stuff is, well, you know, so that has a way better argument, but i personally consider THE THING to be way more of a reward for doing as much stuff right as possible over multiple games rather than "No, THIS is what we expect of you, and if you don't do things right the narrative falls apart."

[@Terramagu]

So it's unclear from this - did they end up reloading to save Mordin? Because like, I can see if Jacob or Samara died, but if there was ever an excuse to rip apart time and space to save one person, it's Mordin.

[@liltiger3]

It really is kind of BS that sending someone back with your surviving crew doesn't take into consideration party member strength but the hold the line portion does.

[@XxMasterLANCExX]

There was a moment back in the day when I also picked Zaeed for the fireteam leader, BUT when it showed the cutscene with him and everybody else it showed Garrus getting shot and doing the dying animation in the background. I was so fucking upset that I looked up how to do it, only for me to find out Garrus survives with all of the options I chose and it was just a random thing that happens in the background. Why tf would they do that, it gave me a heart attack as a kid

[@dywonlever5759]

The funny thing is I just went through the remaster and I went through the suicide mission perfect by accident without realizing that secret check for holding the line. But I forgot to finish my romance with Jack so I reloaded my save and lost mordin in the final mission and lost my mind 😭😭😭

[@SeruraRenge11]

Pat, are you telling me you never did a modded save run where Legion is in the party at the start so you can see his dialog for every mission?

[@Dom380]

When I first played ME2 I was completely blind, so I didn't do any of the ship upgrades and half the squad was dead before we even got to the base

[@averyaustin1]

You can technically finish ME2 without ever ONCE setting foot on the Citadel. Only things that draw you there are a few loyalty mission and an email, but beyond that, nothing main story wise draws you there.

[@williammcdonald9416]

honestly he probably thought he’d have to use a plethora of specialists seeing as though he was at the final mission he still figured there’d be a use for mordin but honestly even the most absent minded military minds wouldn’t have left the weakest of their shooty bang bang combative forces to defend a pivotal position in any sort of situation but this is a growing pain of really getting into this series of games (also he misses how Grunt gets mad hype during the final speech and it s adorable)

[@aftertone3146]

No offense to woolie, but he is someone who has an incredibly shallow knowledge of "realistic" military old and new and whenever he tries to say "thats not how that works " or "that looks silly" he only looks ignorant because it showcases how he just doesnt know even the most basic of shit and then tries to rationalize even the most straightforward thinking with FG and frame data ways that makes it even worse. Its just like pat's "I know I KNOW FOR SURE(he doesnt know)"

[@DamienLunas]

When I did the mission the first time, I sent Grunt back with the Normandy crew. I assumed that I needed to send my strongest and most reliable single squad member who would be able to protect the crew on their way back to the Normandy. I was right in my assessment that Grunt was the strongest. But it *actually* wants you to send back your weakest member. Which made no sense to me at all. Then in the final battle, I assumed that the game didn't really care who I chose, because for the final battle you should be able to just pick who you like playing with the most, right? And in all the other scenarios, who you chose to take with you didn't matter. So I chose Garrus and Samara. The result? Mordin died somehow.

[@Horatio787]

I feel that we got super lucky with The Banner Saga being almost 100% hidden in branching paths based on your choices and avoiding AAAALL of this bullcrap.

[@SylemGistoe]

Its strange to hear, but it feels like woolie is *completely* talking around what pat is trying to say about, "Man, the filler is *actually* what I really wanted out of this whole thing." And Woolie just going, "AH, BUT THE REAPER FIGHT IS GONNA BE SO HYPE THOUGH!" ...Pat tried to warn him, I wonder how he'll feel when he reaches the end of 3.

[@markcarpenter2216]

I just played through on insanity and the hold the line/final boss choice really doesn't happen because the best squadmates for that difficulty are the power users or those with combat drone, the 'weak' characters for hold the line (miranda, mordin, tali).

[@WhenTheSunLordsFell]

jack and the beanstalk lol

[@valeria262]

22:57 Woolie’s face and phrasing killed me there😂

[@SoaringLettuce]

It's amazing that they had a choice that would result in character deaths be dependant on stats they obfuscated after the first game

[@JohnSmith-ef2rn]

No, you can have a less than perfect run in which mordin survives. I somehow had a scenario during my first playthrough in which Jack was the only one to die.

[@ManOfLegs]

It's been a minute since I played, but I know for certain that Morden comment can't be right? Legion went in the vents. Samara did the bubble. If there was a bubble part 2, it may have been Jack? I sent Jacob back to escort everyone to the ship. Garrus to lead the last defence. Tali came with me to the final boss, though I don't recall who the other party member was.. Could be Morden if Pat's right. Though I lost no one on that mission.

[@batmanthe]

The character that fills Mordin's role in 3 is the best of the replacement characters but still sucks more than loosing Jacob or something.

[@Mantorok12]

Look at what the various species in the game are good at. Who are the best fighters? The krogan berserker, the turian legionnaire, and the human merc. Exemplars of the three best direct force militaries in the galaxy. The middle category are all very versatile, highly trained or skilled people, but the bottom category are a quarian, a salarian, and a mentally unstable biotic. The quarians are tech experts, but are extremely vulnerable to disease. The Salarian war doctrine is to win wars before they start, but barring that, get someone else to fight them. The krogan fought the rachni, the turians fought the krogan. And Jack is just crazy and has super powers. Valuable teammates, but their roles are support.

[@blueblazer9991]

The title of this enwokes the spirit of the Designer of Pathologic 2

[@benlunaris]

The most interesting and nonsense bit of this (assuming they don't die from the ship upgrade checks) is that if you send Tali or Mordin to the ship and then take the other or both of them into the final battle, they both live. Then the idea that the weakest members die instead of the stronger ones that would be more likely to stand in front and draw the fire. That and the idea of the jump death is honestly the worst part of it because they have even more reason to make it because they don't believe Shepard will save them. The even more absurd part is Zaheed and Kasumi *ADD* to the number which doesn't require them to even be there for the best outcome. They should've had them replace Tali and Mordin in the death scenes since Zaheed and Kasumi both basically only have one actual interaction later (2 if you count a specific fanservice DLC).

[@sagadellic6616]

I actually didnt flop the hold the line, but jack died due to a ship upgrade I didnt have.

[@sootythunder3111]

The funny thing is I had my dad play the trilogy on casual and he approached the suicide misson with his non-gamer logic and managed to beat it without anyone dying, I shit you not he sat down with the “whose escorting the survivors” and went “well if they are cutting back through the area we just went thru killing everyone there should be light resistance, some but light…..it would be best to get the most non-combative member of the team out of here” and sent Mordin Then in hold the line he chose Garrus and Tali, and told me “well I want my rear guard to be strong so I don’t get someone sneaking up on me, so I want to leave 2 of the 3 of Grunt, Zaeed, or Garrus back, but I also want one of them with me in case I hit trouble and Garrus seemed like someone who would run through fire to cover me, more so then Zaeed or grunt…..I also want a tech expert with me if I encounter any more weird doors or that section with the vent shaft” And I’m just sitting there going like “it’s so weird seeing someone who is not thinking this in a way a gamer would think but it being 100% right”

[@ThePhantomSquee]

I didn't have any trouble with the hold the line segment; instead, it was the vents and biotic shield that got me the first time through. For the vents, I didn't want to send Tali very first thing because I was romancing her, and I hadn't fully internalized Legion as a "tech" guy (despite being a robot), so I picked Kasumi, since she's a balance of stealth and a tech. Then for the biotic field, I picked Miranda, since she and Jack are the party members most visibly biotic-focused. I think the stipulation that only two party member are viable for each choice puts a bit of a damper on things, unfortunately, because I still think both of those decisions made perfect sense.

[@MillenniumDays]

I played it completely meta and chose Miranda to lead the team... because I thought she was too much of an important character to die at the time. It worked for the wrong reasons. I still lost Mordin first time though.

[@Nabs-xd2qr]

Frankly Miranda never seemed like leadership material to me

[@argondrolf785]

My biggest bullshit moment was gaining tali’s loyalty and then losing it when I turned her down for romance and she died from a suit rupture after the seeker swarm section.

[@iMoD190]

in my first playthrough, I only ever lost half the crew due to the time limit and didn't lose any squadmates. the game gives you some very heavy hints about who to assign to each role.

[@Mlow44]

I don't really recall my first playthrough super well as that was over ten years and at least a dozen playthroughs ago, but I believe I kept doing side missions after the crew got nabbed and lost Mordin. I thought it was kinda bullshit but had been planning all along to roll right into the next playthrough so it didn't really bother me. If I was a "one-and-done"-er like Woolie I'm sure I would have made a bigger stink about it.

[@cheezysnackz4312]

After looking up all the mechanics after my first play through I am legimatly surprised that Zaeed was the only person who died on my first playthrough.

[@MartoLun]

It's kinda hard for me to call the final boss of Mass Effect 2 bad, after experienced the horror that is *Bane* in Arkham Asylum

[@RavenCloak13]

...I was fucking 12 when I played this and did it first try because it felt so intuitive to do... Also why would people care about who they take when companies didn't do all the much even on hard when I did it as a kid because I just went "Garrus, you my boy. Lead these people cause I know you can".

[@shanoc5902]

I actually did manage to get everyone to survive on my first playthrough... Thanks to having some older siblings who warned me about about holding off on the story mission where people get captured and hearing from the internet that you want to upgrade *everything*, but not knowing about any of the choices that would be coming up. When asked who I would send back I actually sent back the character I liked the least, expecting the people to run into an ambush and it to be risky. I ended up just getting completely lucky and hit the what I believe was a 25% chance of Mordid surviving (as well as several other characters who I put in danger). When I learned after the fact about all these hidden factors? I still felt it was bullshit and like I was cheated not because someone died, but because I, objectively, put characters I liked in danger which I wouldn't have if the choices were as telegraphed as the early choices.

[@nemesisnick66]

i did it first try prolly cause i took tali and mordin with me cause they were the characters i liked until woolies lp i didnt even know anyone could die as long as u did the loyalty missions