Matt Chandler's Radical Reminder that "God Is For God"

[@DelmarPeet]

I was in the room when that was preached!! Changed the trajectory of my ministry!

[@offthekirb]

This is so awesome Tim I really love your channel! - Joe

[@bphifer]

Amen. Off the Kirb you rock too!

[@jgvtc559]

He promote false teachers

[@shaun9976]

Joe!!!!😁 I love your channel

[@MJTinklenberg]

I listened to Chandler's "God is for God" sermon and his series "Recovering Redemption" in the same month. Talk about getting your theological wrinkles ironed out.. I had never seen or understood the character nature of God so well until I listened to the two. I grew up in the word of faith movement, so God was always an experience to be chased after or some reflection of the amount of faith I had. It created a very genie like character of God. I thank God for changing my heart and thinking using men like Matt Chandler. Thank you Pastor Tim for posting this!

[@Iffmeister]

Matthew Tinklenberg dude Word of Faith is such a disease to the body of Christ. So happy you came out of that.

[@Iffmeister]

Matthew Tinklenberg God will help many in the movement come to saving faith, and he'll use you to do it. Trust him

[@dRBAR]

VERY GOOD COMBO! Those two changed my life!!

[@jaybrun2253]

+RBAR (RBAR) i read his book "Recovering Redemption" it's not so good honestly

[@dRBAR]

Jay Brun what suggestions do you have for pastor Matt? Lol

[@ACyrrock004]

I needed this message today. I was doubting my salvation. I realized that God saved me by and for himself. I have nothing to do with keeping myself saved. I thank God for putting a hunger in my soul to remember his glory and salvation.

[@colton7373]

Amen brother!!!

[@ruthiemay4799]

Nobody remembers any other sermon preached that week but we all remember Matt's sermon. 😇😇😇

[@solomonnallapu]

This series is awesome. The sermon "God is for God" showed me that I'm a hypocrite and I need to Repent. Thank you for this video.

[@gregormann7]

“Israel never did well with blessing. . .”!! That is beyond profound. It is also the perfect template for the general inability of human beings to effectively handle large amounts of anything positive. Money, fame, influence, power, etc. If it comes in mega doses it usually proves destructive, if not fatal. But Blessing? Yes, even blessing. It’s profound.

[@challies]

It's something for all of us to remember, isn't it? Success brings many more temptations than failure, I think.

[@ronske121]

Sooo good. I have to sleep on that one. Profound.

[@guadachadderdon5828]

I had the same reaction as you! So profound . Proud of Chandler.

[@guadachadderdon5828]

@@challies I'd really love to hear your thoughts and a review on Francis Chan sharing the stage with Benny Hinn and Todd White, etc. I've been hearing and reading conflicting messages. It seems like it's the same issue: a speaker on the panel of man other speakers with differing theological stances.... Would love to hear your thoughts ...

[@serendipitousbliss6548]

I think in the bible this is usually why those he raises up usually have to go through tremendous trials and humbling first. Joseph was made a prince and ruler - but only after being abandoned and sold by his family - becoming a slave for many years. David was a simple shepherd boy not even considered by his father as an option for King ship. Saul was a grievous sinner etc etc. God is well aware of mans predilections once given power - and thus the saying: God chastises those he loves. Before he blesses you - he disciplines you - in order that you do not squander the blessing that he gives.

[@JudeOneThree]

I live in Charlotte and haven't paid particular attention to Elevation over the years. But recently, I've known more people who are "Elevators" and I started researching the church a bit. I've listened to numerous sermons by Pastor Furtick, but only yesterday discovered Matt Chandler's "God is For God" sermon and watched it in it's entirety. I've made many biblically-based criticisms against Furtick's teaching and doctrine, but Chandler's sermon blew me away. I couldn't believe they let him go without killing the lights and audio! He was bold, but gentle. He was doctrinal, but personable. He was firm, but loving. In short, it was one of the best sermons I'd ever heard. And this summary from Tim Challies is spot on. Thank you for putting it together and sharing.

[@jeanniestaller797]

God bless Matt Chandler for this.

[@su....]

because i know my heavenly father is for his own glory, i can REST!!! i can TRUST. i can BE UNAFRAID. as a guest of that congregation, seems as long as mr. chandler delivered that message in humility and kindness, he was good to go.

[@kevindunn1658]

Man, I can't believe God's timing! I was literally in a convo today that made me think about the difference in a Christianity that revolves around the character of God rather than what God is doing in me/through me. Thank you for posting and God clearly brought me here to see this today.

[@adamboyd5190]

I've heard it said and I whole-heartedly agree the prosperity/ emergent man centered gospel is God's judgement on those people who have no ears to hear. but I heard this sermon from Matt Chandler in the process of God drawing me to himself and believe it. thanks Tim for this video, God bless!

[@nelsonsantos81]

This was the first Sermon i’ve heard from Chandler. I was already into reformed theology thanks to Washers shoking sermon, which you gave a great review in this series, btw. But this sermon took me into a different path!! I think it became clearly for me how i was Called to preach. Challis may God keep blessing you. Greetings from Portugal!!

[@challies]

Thanks, Nelson!

[@estherodanga4238]

May God bless your path as you preach the true gospel of Yehushua's death and remission of sins.

[@Gablesman888]

Did you mean Washer's "shocking" sermon or "choking" sermon? Different people have had different reactions. Thank God for Washer and Challies.

[@alrs79]

Wow. I've heard nothing of this until now. This is AWESOMENESS!

[@cincostones]

Where is the LOVE button, I want to now hear Chandler's whole message now, i think it's a great sermon message no matter what.

[@miaminight9500]

Hopefully chandler will stay true to Gods word, and not fall into the pit with most of the others. It’s time we start getting strong true preachers to stand up against what’s leading the masses to their end. Keep preaching true pastor chandler. God bless 🕊✝️💜🙏🏻💪

[@Truthendures]

The is so helpful Tim. Thank you! When this all happened and they took the video down I was able to find a cached version on their website. I extracted it then uploaded it to KZbin ;)

[@courageandfaith]

Truth does indeed endure! GBY.

[@WeWantYouToStay]

Have to say: thank you so much for doing that brother/sister. This sermon could have easily been lost forever! Maybe God had different plans.

[@kimberleerivera7062]

Glory To GOD!!! Thank you Tim Challies for sharing this! While I am not a Calvinist - I have been listening to John McArthur's preaching/teaching for about 5 years now and I wish I could meet him and thank him for his loyalty to GOD in shepherding the flock of JESUS CHRIST! I hope I can do that in GOD'S KINGDOM! I have also been listening to Paul Washer for about 5 years as well and am so very grateful and thankful to GOD for both of these shepherds/servants of GOD! Thanks to those men preaching and teaching CHRIST CRUCIFIED, THE CROSS, GOD'S HOLINESS AND HOW TO GLORIFY GOD - and much more - I have come to understand what it means to be hid in CHRIST and live for etetnity and that our true brother's and sister's in CHRIST are a gift from our FATHER! I am thrilled that Matt Chandler was able to do this! May GOD'S name be glorified as GOD'S TRUTH'S are revealed to the entire world!

[@dian.krisnanjaya]

I thank God for Matt Chandler. And I love your channel, Tim!

[@joycechafin4587]

Give God the Glory!! AMEN

[@wardcase1876]

The best sermon I’ve ever heard!!! Thanks MR chandelier!!!🙏GOD spoke through this man on that night no doubt!!!

[@shanescott3168]

I listened to Chandler's message because I heard it mentioned on a podcast and a few days later this video popped up. I really liked and appreciated your commentary on it and the results. Thank you. Well done.

[@doublediamond1234]

I watched the full message this morning. I thought he was very straight talking, but showed a whole lot of Grace also, understanding he was sharing something, possibly, entirely new to this church.

[@mauriceperez1479]

To the speaker on the video...Thank you. Praise God

[@jazzyjgaming7669]

I'll be attending seminary this fall. Not Southern, but Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary in Memphis. Chandler is one of my favorites and God is For God is one of my favorite sermons ever

[@TheOzzMars]

I love truth. I look forward to listening to this full sermon.

[@selenasimmons6653]

My friends and I did not care for the sermons at Elevation..we would listen to Matt Chandler and had no clue of his background..but yet have much to discuss from his sermons..this confirms what we would weigh. Very insightful

[@The300ZXGuru]

Christ has been and will forever be the true savior of his ppl

[@Lanie0404]

Absolutely awesome!!!

[@Mrdana3438]

Glory to the most high God of gods for allowing me to hear and grab hold to this truth. May He be lifted up in the lives of everyone who listens to this video. Thank you for posting this!

[@aroyal5564]

KEEP THESE VIDEOS COMING.

[@RoniiiB]

Pastor Matt is great 🔥🙌🏾

[@Deep-Travel]

Love, Love, Love this series. Thanks!

[@danielsmith9130]

Tim, I've got to tell you, since first learning about your role in ministry, I've been skeptical. This video has shed new light on my doubts about you. You really show Truth and tell it as God intended! Thank you, Brother! Onward, Christian Soldier!!

[@elgabenedicta]

I'm really enjoying this sermon series! Thank you so much for making them. I learn a lot from them. Much love from Indonesia 🙏 God bless you brother Tim

[@challies]

Thanks for letting me know. I'm glad you're enjoying them.

[@Michael_Chandler_Keaton]

Nah, bunch of Calvie pandering. Nothing from Adrian Rogers???!! Leonard Ravenhill? John R Rice? Harry A Ironside? or J. Vernon McGee? Stirring and passionate men of God full of biblical truth. Just not Calvinist enough.

[@Iffmeister]

I love both Pastors. I love Steven's passion to lift people to live the way God has called them to. I love Matt's absolute no nonsense preaching and love to help people have a deeper understanding of God. I pray Pastor Steven would grow in understanding that he doesn't need to be afraid to dig deeper to really show the church WHY it all matters.

[@andrewclover1462]

Ify Nsoha Pray for Steven to become a Christian.

[@Iffmeister]

Andrew Clover I wouldn't say he's not a Christian. What I would say is there's a lot of fine tuning that is needed. For a whole year God used some of the man's sermons to grow my passion for God. Nowadays, I'd rather listen to Piper or Chandler more regularly (though I've always listened to both), but that's just cause I've matured. I feel Pastor Steven, while meaning well, may be breeding a lot of Christians who haven't really progressed much past baby Christian stage, and that's not really good at all.

[@andrewclover1462]

Ify Nsoha I would. Read the New Testament's description of false teachers and then start digging into Furtick's behavior. He's a wolf.

[@Iffmeister]

Andrew Clover we'll see brother. Above labeling, I'd pray for him, whether I view him as a Christian or not. Dude needs Jesus as much as I do.

[@bootaa1408]

no nonsense? he loves feminists and role reversal

[@ethanfrye31]

It's true that alot of churches are very person centered over God centered in their presentations of the word and of the Gospel. But it's also true that people can get a lot of satisfaction, (sometimes maybe a little too much), at telling other people where they are wrong. I intuit that from Chandler at times. And from reformed types in general. There's something rewarding about correcting other people. It's self-affirming.Just a pinch of salt with this.

[@bufferhater1381]

Yes, as a person who grew up in Pentecostal setting I felt that Reformed teaching answered some of the issues that bugged me, yet often I find many of them are quite close to the brink of snobbery, or even worse, self-righteousness

[@theplcc]

I totally absolutely LOVED this. Thanks so much for sharing.

[@matasaina2011]

I'm charismatic, pentecostal, NAR and that is the same message I've heard. . all is for God's Glory.

[@jeshmeendebbarman9504]

I can't thank you enough for the message that is being shared. I am blessed❤️

[@cadencechurch1075]

Love Steven Furtick's ministry and Matt Chandler's.

[@rebeccaloyd1043]

"You'll miss all five! " Cracks me up every time!! Thank you Tim for including this in the Great Sermon Series. I knew the back story and I've watched this sermon several times, and even though it is not his best (as you pointed out), it is powerful in its simple and timely biblical message. Love your explanation and synopsis.

[@hwjchim1658]

this series is awesome!!!

[@edmonddantes3640]

Preaching to the de-churched is the most powerful lesson from Chandler IMHO.

[@kimberlyborosa5097]

This is awesome !

[@regg32457]

This is the message for 247!

[@AndrewKendall71]

Timeliness, truthfulness, humility ... “If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest exposition every portion of the Word of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Him. Where the battle rages there the loyalty of the soldier is proved; and to be steady on all the battle front besides, is mere flight and disgrace if he flinches at that point.”

[@Cotyblack]

I'm starting at Southern this fall.

[@challies]

My son will be starting at Boyce. I'm really excited for him!

[@Cotyblack]

Tim Challies excellent. I am enjoying it so far. Learning a ton.

[@Cotyblack]

Matt Brodersen thanks! It’s great so far. Hope you get to attend!

[@snark_888]

Wonderful video. Glad I found it.

[@ronaldlarue5256]

Awesome message... Life changing for me and ridiculously simple.

[@gospeltruth9345]

Excellent!!!!

[@m.ry_m]

God is powerful! I'm so moved by this series

[@katherinepoindexter4380]

To God be the glory for the great things He has done. I am nothing apart from Him. all of my worth is wrapped up in His glory. If it was not for His glory i would be nothing but waste. All things are used for good for those who love Him not because of us But because He is good and He is holy and He is the awesome one and only God. I witnessed a storm last night. bright lightning that seemed unending and God's glory is 5x's as bright so much so it can't be counted.

[@stacy2point0]

LOVE IT. Glory to God in the highest. I saw the popular sermon by Chandler, but I did not know about it's controversial context. Thanks for sharing... the sermon is even more powerful to me now!!!

[@bleckybob]

Elevation has put so much influence into the world of music centered around worship, and recently has begun to slip into a performance

[@KristiLEvans1]

Furtick has to be given some credit for inviting Chandler. Chandler delivered the WORD, and those people desperately needed that.

[@dianesullivan767]

That was incredible.

[@stu1002]

The intriguing thing here is why did Furtick invite Chandler? Moreover, if you listen to his introduction, he heaps praise on him. he's clearly not blind to what Chandler is all about. He clearly WANTED Chandler there... i'd love to get in side Furtick's mind and see how that fits together for him..

[@Iffmeister]

stu1002 yeah he definitely wanted him there it's evident from how he speaks of him. I guess we'll never know

[@tabby25hope]

God's sovereignty over every man's heart to accomplish His own plans :)

[@rolysantos]

The answer to your question is twofold: First, because Furtick has no biblical discernment and does not really understand the difference between truth and error. That's why he is able to heap praises on someone like Chandler, who speaks the truth of scripture without regard for the opinions of man, and at the same time praise someone like T.J. Jakes who tickles the ears of his listeners with prosperity foolishness and lifts himself up as a Man of God while denying God's word. To Furtick, it's ALL 'The word of God' because they say "Jesus!" Second, because Furtick lacks discernment and therefore has no solid ground to stand on, he does not have to endure the very difficult task of standing for the truth against the opinions of men and becoming subject to their displeasure and wrath. In other words, while Godly mean like Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Paul, etc.. suffered persecution for speaking the truth, and as true preachers of God's word today face ridicule in the USA and prison and death in other countries, preachers like Furtick find it easy to "Go along to get along," to give people soft preaching that's makes them happy, rather than hard truths that may anger people, but also make them Holy and save their souls! Here are words spoken by True Prophets of God's word that Furtick would do well to Read, Understand, and take to heart: Isaiah 30:9-11 For these are rebellious people, deceitful children, children unwilling to listen to the Lord’s instruction.They say to the seers, “See no more visions!”and to the prophets, “Give us no more visions of what is right!Tell us pleasant things, prophesy illusions. Leave this way, get off this path, and stop confronting us with the Holy One of Israel!” (Isaiah was not afraid to call out his people when they needed to be called out.) Jeremiah 6:13-14 “From the least to the greatest,all are greedy for gain;prophets and priests alike,all practice deceit. They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious.‘Peace, peace,’ they say, when there is no peace.Are they ashamed of their detestable conduct?No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush." (Jeremiah called out the false prophets and preachers for their lies and the harm that they did to the people for not turning them from sin. He did not tolerate soft preaching) Jeremiah 23:25-28 "I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, ‘I had a dream! I had a dream!’ How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds?They think the dreams they tell one another will make my people forget my name, just as their ancestors forgot my name through Baal worship. Let the prophet who has a dream recount the dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. " (God commands that those who have his word give the "WHOLE counsel of God!" faithfully)

[@Mrdana3438]

Great point.

[@babygunz0604]

@@johnaaruakpor1707 The gospel is clear that we ought to look out for brothers and sisters. Since the beginning of Christianity, the apostles have had to rebuke fellow brothers and sisters and point out false teachings. It's all over the book of Acts. Matt was full of love and respect with his interactions with Furtick. I encourage you to watch the whole video of that panel they did together. Matt was never disrespect neither was he talking down. Furtick knew what Chandler's beliefs and it was a risk he took.

[@medhasethi589]

Thanks for this video. I'm glad you brought out to light this amazing sermon by Chandler ♥️🌼♥️

[@dubyag4124]

#1 I was pleasantly shocked Furtick invited Chandler to preach, especially after the debate. I was not aware of this. #2 I'm disappointed and not surprised at all Elevation did not include that sermon in their video offering to their members - probably the most important sermon was left out. That is very telling about what kind of message they want their members to hear: how great THEY are, not how great God is. Really heartbreaking.

[@dr.sandeepraj7122]

Again Br, thanks for this video, Matt God is for God and bring Theology proper from Psalms 23 is so true and amazing, really worshipful

[@StewartRamakuri]

Tim, I absolutely love your videos. Thanks for making them!

[@emm5138]

This was so awesome! This week I watched the videos of Piper, Sproul, Washer and also Osteen's sermons. To be honest. I don't think I knew Chandler before this, but it was so awesome to see the situation of that sermon. Like you said, the right sermon, in the RIGHT TIME! Thank you again, Tim!

[@ntunger3633]

That sermon was bangin.

[@GinKirk7256]

Thank you, Tim. So many are being led astray from the narrow way by those who are false teachers. The unwashed masses are delighting in having their itching ears tickled. They refuse to pay heed to discernment offered by confessing Christians led by the Holy Spirit. For years I’ve been on a search to tease apart the wolves from those faithfully devoted to Jesus! Of course, many choose not to glean from what I’ve learned. I’ve been put on the black list of many progressives such as: RHE, Jen Hatmaker, John Pavlovitz, Kimberly Knight, Frankie Schaefer, Peter Enns, Dr. William Barbour, Micah Murray, Benjamin Corey, and Preston Yancey, among others. Why are they so afraid of the Truth which is Jesus?

[@TabithaDavis]

Great way to start off the day!! Great stuff!

[@CharleneBurgos]

Excellent!!!

[@brendaperry1313]

Wow! This spoke

[@gregcantu91]

Great great video please keep these up

[@djvibez8908]

This was helpful!

[@lofbred6450]

Thank you so much for posting this brother.

[@PaulOutsidetheWalls]

What’s great is THEY loved it too. The people in the church were receptive to the harder sermon than they were used to.

[@JR-my6bc]

Love this.

[@Charlestuckernorton_]

This was so good!!!!!!!

[@sleekwrite]

👍thanks

[@harrywilson404]

Amen!

[@tam1729]

Love it 😍

[@jamesleach1552]

🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@MetanoiaOfferMastery]

What’s more astonishing is how well you did the green screen.

[@143BLT]

This theology is also explained in the second American Gospel doc, Christ Crucified. So many Christians need to hear this.

[@solomonnallapu]

Please do more of these videos!

[@davidom6792]

Thank you for this from Nigeria

[@challies]

You're very welcome...

[@Iffmeister]

David Omoniyi A AYYYYYY Nigerian as well!

[@howdy2496]

Good stuff. Keep it coming.

[@JESUSCHRISTISLORD911]

Thanks for this video brother! It actually helped me as I decided to leave another church (4th one) after getting to know them that is very much about themselves and very little about God. Father’s will be done. Will be visiting Matt Chandler’s church tomorrow which is just 20 minutes away...never heard of him until last night (was actually a 2 minute clip that Jesus was not white lol). Anyhow please keep doing more videos, very very helpful.

[@carlmoore6674]

Right on!

[@nteeters22]

Such an unbiased video.

[@Post_Tenebras_Lux_]

There are two types of preaching: Man centered and God centered. Chandler preached a God centered, God glorifying message.

[@-_hi-_]

This is crazy! Furtick graduated from SBTS, you would think he would have known all of this. Apparently, he forgot it or set it aside. Great video!!!

[@CerroneSamuel]

I started watching Furtick’s sermons a year ago and I felt uncomfortable. His sermons were motivating and encouraging but something felt like it was missing. I thought I was being judgmental and I tried to continue but I couldn’t. This confirms the way I feel. God is the treasure, He is the reward, nothing else matters. I’m beginning to understand why the apostles forsook all and followed Jesus. The kingdom of heaven is like a man who found a treasure and sold all to buy it. To God be the Glory.

[@Rahullazarus]

Well...if God really wants to have all the Glory then I should let Him do all the work for ME

[@clydestamp6970]

Awesome speaker of the truth. If only he were baptised in the Spirit. Look Out

[@jpmvidal]

Salvation comes to those who believe in Jesus and obey Him. The rest will be cast into the lake of fire where the flames burn forever and ever.

[@SundayVibesmusic]

I remember this revival..so sad..a lot of focus was on TD jakes but not Matt Chandler..had no idea who he was at the time but I remember the elephant room..I just didn’t watch it until years later

[@Samueldonovan2007]

Also instantly subscribed

[@gavobrown]

Notable Southern Seminary alumni: Steven Furtick

[@pauleveritt3388]

I summarize Matt Chandler's message in a simple phrase, "God is NOT your cruise ship waiter."

[@nderitupius]

If we are not open to GOD'S revelation of HIMSELF in the BIBLE we will always throw ourselves around the BIBLE like we deserve better than what we have right now. GOD IS FOR GOD AND WE WERE MADE TO GIVE HIM GLORY BY THE HELP OF THE HOLY GHOST. If you can't say AMEN say ouch.

[@jeremy144713]

The thing is with Matt is he practically insults the congregation, it’s why he gets backlash. There’s a way to convey our depreciation without insulting us personally. It’s one of the reasons he gets hate and one of the reasons I don’t click on his sermons. I’m a sinner who needs Jesus but you telling me how terrible I am for an hour is STILL ABOUT ME. In heaven it’s about HIM , it’ll always be about him.

[@jigsaw4five]

I respect Matt Chandler for what he's doing, but I find Steven Furtick a lot more helpful to me in living out my faith. If Chandler's preaching is better and he has more substantive messages yet it doesn't really help me love God or bring God more glory in my life, does that really make him the better teacher?

[@spdinsbeer1]

Amen. This is what people who make videos like this are missing.

[@joeluaje5389]

If Chandler’s preaching is more substantive, that would mean his is closer to God’s Word. If you prefer to listen to a preaching that is further from the Word of God, then how is that better in helping you love God? Be careful on your preference, for the Scriptures says, “For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.” ‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:3-4

[@spdinsbeer1]

Mark Joel Uaje it isn’t a matter of being closer to the Word or not, nor is it a matter of rejecting “sound teaching” as your saying here. Some messages are geared towards those who already have a foundation of theological knowledge, and others don’t. Furtick’s messages are geared toward the latter.

[@rudymurillo9334]

You should be able to see both sides of the coin. Doctrine is great but if your church isnt multiplying then your congregation isn't living out the word. Matt Chandler is one of my favorite preachers...I havent watched any sermons by Furtick but I dont disagree woth his quote "if you need the Gospel of grace as defined by Calvin to get excited you need to find another church". If you're not excited by seeing people saved then you're probably a pharisee.

[@rudymurillo9334]

Matthew Rollins so you dont believe the members of Elevation church are saved? What are you basing this on?

[@rudymurillo9334]

Matthew Rollins I dont know if you've ever been a part of an Altar Call ministry but whenever someone accepts Jesus Christ and comes forward for altar call the people they meet with tell them the Gospel.

[@stephenalde5296]

If the people in the alter call ministry are sitting under the teaching of a pastor that does not or seldom preaches the gospel, what makes you think the members of the church value the gospel more than the pastor?

[@rudymurillo9334]

Stephen Alde ok bro. It's obvious that you've already casted your verdict and sentenced this congregation to damnation. I'm not going to continue to waste my time trying to convince you of something that neither of us have any real insight into.

[@stephenalde5296]

Hi Rudy, You mischaracterize me. I have not casted any verdict on the eternal destiny of the members of this church. My point is that sheep follow their shepherd.