Mauser WW1 Flyer's Rifle: the Flieger Selbstlader Karabiner 1916

[@grantmo821]

When Manfred Von Richthofen(The Red Baron) first got into aviation, it was as an observer in two-seater aircraft, & he carried this model rifle in his cockpit. In his first air combat, a French two-seater flew alongside & fired on them with a carbine, so he charged his rifle & fired multiple shots into the enemy plane until it went down out of control & crashed, his first aerial victory. He received no credit for it, since it fell behind the French lines, but to a devoted big-game hunter like Von Richthofen, it was a personal achievement that thrilled him to the core. The allure of hunting down the enemy in his own plane was what drove him to become a fighter pilot, & to make his mark on history.

[@joelfenner]

Mauser's designs continually impress me for their "jigsaw puzzle" nature when it comes to assembly. This seems to be a common feature to him - something a lot of other designers did not seem to favor. It's not absolute, or totally universal, but from the C96 to this, it seems like there are far fewer pins, screws, &c. than there are just cadres of elegantly designed unique parts that all nest into each other.. Production manufacturing for this kind of "fancy geometry everywhere" is very impressive on its own.

[@The_Modeling_Underdog]

Great video on one of my favourite WWI pieces of equipment, Ian. Two points to consider. When the FSK entered service with the two-seater squadrons, German observers were still using the front seat and pilots the one immediately behind. Given all the struts and riggin, there was nowhere to butt the rifle against the coaming of the cockpit when taking aim. The forward grip serves the same function as today's forward grips, prongs, knobs and dongs. It also keeps the magazine from doing damage to the structure and viceversa. The FSK was kept in service even after the two-seater layout was changed, due to the improved field of fire. Thanks for sharing. Cheers,

[@bynrdskynrd]

It instantly reminded me of that little knob at the end of MP-40 barrels that allowed soldiers to brace the gun on/against something when firing.

[@miket2120]

That complex mechanism and it's action was all thought out in Mauser's mind and drawn on paper. Wow.

[@thomasc7610]

Most people recognize this from BF1. Very cool to actually see and hear about a real one.

[@thechilledonion9313]

This gun was so cool in BF1. And, yes, happy to learn more about.

[@VoidySan]

Yeah, that's the only reason I even recognized it. Favorite medic gun fore shore.

[@VertietRyper]

It's also a rifle in Battlefield V! It is an infantry rifle for Assault class.

[@VoidySan]

@@VertietRyper Bruh, I forgot the assault and medic switched guns

[@VertietRyper]

@@VoidySan That, and along with Support's Carbine pistols, they went to Recon in BFV as well.

[@nilo9456]

I've been following this channel for a while now, I find myself astonished both by the clever engineering of these early self-loading firearms and just how close to a more functional weapon, mud etc, these early designers got. So much potential.

[@Dell-ol6hb]

this is a surprisingly modern looking rifle for 1916, this seems like something you'd expect to see in WW2 rather than WW1

[@seculartapes]

Hopefully whoever buys this lets Othias borrow it. I love seeing all the different clockwork monstrosities people tried out for auto rifles we finally settled on (mostly) some variation of the simple gas piston, rotating bolt, recoil spiting.

[@ryanward8039]

The "S" before the serial number likely stood for S-patronen or "Spitzer" meaning that this rifle will accept projectiles with a spitzer point.

[@emiliocovarrubias4699]

BF1 was awesome 😢

[@paleoph6168]

Wait, it's bad now? Just asking, as I haven't played BF1 in long time.

[@vlotex]

@@paleoph6168 It's still great. The person above probably hasn't played it in a long time

[@emiliocovarrubias4699]

@@vlotex yup I haven’t

[@msharmall7298]

It was mid. Completely filled with nothing but hackers after six months like every battlefield game on PC.

[@msharmall7298]

@(düzenlendi) Agreed, 5 was a much much better game.

[@kamboora]

man, I'm a mechanical designer and I'm quite impressed by how the old Era weaponry designs were simple yet well made and precise, I'm following this channel not only because my interest in weaponry but due to i learn much from it into my work, thank you Ian you do amazing work y'all

[@Indylimburg]

Makes you wonder what the old legends could have done with modern design tech like autocad and computer simulation instead of spending years on development through trial and error.

[@kamboora]

@@Indylimburg you're right, I'm into solidworks and fusion 360 ya'll, still mistakes happens and sometimes materials doesn't handle stress on long terms, here comes how amazing those engineers who didn't had CAD/CAM consepts, no R&D which we've today but they could do things that could work flawlessly 100 years ya'll..

[@SamlSchulze1104]

I've been saying "all rifles should have magazine guard handles" for years.

[@takeawaykitty.]

Thats such a clever lock up! I love it!

[@teknoaxe]

Hearing the operation of this rifle reminds me of the game of mousetrap. This does this, but then it does that, interacts with this piece here and then that piece rotates to hit the other piece. It's like they went out of their way to be complicated.

[@aurigo_tech]

Beautiful rifle and mechanism. A pity there is not more of them around.

[@coitusergosum2447]

1:16 In my brain, the phrasing of that sentence makes it sound like he never got what destroyed his eye out of his skull

[@Rainbow-Dash]

EQG Enjoyer I approve 👍

[@whoshotashleybabbitt4924]

Flapper locked sounds like what happened from dirty activities in the 1920s.

[@sampointau]

The wooden addition in front of the magazine would also allow it to be put against the wooden coaming around the cockpits as well as hatches and windows in Zeppelins and if used in observation balloons (Which I think it may have been in as well), rested against the basket edge. I can remember seeing somewhere else this type of addition being done on other rifles and semi-automatic firearms for the same reason.

[@JamesLaserpimpWalsh]

The machining on it, looks flippin good. Tolerances all tight and exact. Would be a nightmare to keep running reliably I reckon. I can't imagine this gun standing up to one of your trademark mud baths very well. Still interesting to see. Cheers Ian.

[@XtreeM_FaiL]

I imagine that there were also lot of hand fitting to make a rifle work.

[@jackdarbyshire5888]

@@2stroke438 didn't he say they tried it out in the trenches 😏

[@XtreeM_FaiL]

@@jackdarbyshire5888 With or without a plane?

[@TheFanatical1]

A sealed up, tightly-toleranced gun is usually much better at surviving mud than a firearm with poor tolerances. The classic examples are the AR-15, the AK, the Luger and the 1911. Which of those do you think perform better in a mud test? The answer (by a country mile) is the AR-15 and the Luger. The AK and the 1911 will get mud into the action, or behind the hammer, and then all bets are off. Rattle is bad! Looser tolerances don't translate into reliability when exposed to adverse conditions, they (at best) provide a place for carbon to build up that isn't going to gum up the action. Dumping this rifle into mud will probably render it inoperable, but the same would be true of the AK, or nearly any rifle. A very tightly-toleranced rifle will not get mud into the action, and so will be much better at surving the kind of mud bath that you can reasonably expect a rifle to survive (that is to say, not a particularly long one). The reason why automatic rifles fare worse in the trenches (and why they might not want them there) is because trench-rifles don't need to survive a mud-bath and keep on shooting, they need to survive ten thousand mud baths, ten thousand and one water rinses, and then keep on shooting. Particularly complicated guns like this rifle will not handle that kind of experience as well as simpler firearms.

[@TheWolfsnack]

@@2stroke438 Yeah...that was my first thought....little mud on a plane.

[@dhawthorne1634]

You forgot bricks. One of the most effective weapons in early dog fights was the simple clay brick. Drop it from above. Too early, you damage the propeller; too late, you damage the rudder controls; they start to bank, you damage the wings; right on target, you knock out the pilot and down goes the aircraft.

[@loupiscanis9449]

Thank you , Ian . 🐺

[@miguelangelsimonfernandez5498]

The markings S and K stand for Selbstlade (self-loading) and Karabine

[@lancerevell5979]

I have seen this rifle in books, especially "Small Arms of the World" by W. H. B. Smith/Edward C. Ezell. It has always fascinated me. I really wish it had been developed further after WWI. The action seems quite a good idea.

[@Glaaki13]

I hope you finde one to hold one day

[@kevinoliver3083]

The Farquar-Hill was developed into a light machine gun. It lost out the Vickers-Berthier and ZB26, evolved into the Bren.

[@ravenslaves]

During the Great War, the mighty nation of Elbonia _kept_ the bayonet lugs on their standard issue Flieger Karabiners. And used them, with great success, throughout Elbonia's entire air campaign. Our brave pilots would fly close enough to the enemy aero craft with their bayonet equipped Karabiners to attack the enemy pilots in flight. Every single enemy aero machine thusly attacked, was brought down as a confirmed kill. Coincidentally, the number of Elbonia's air victories was the exact same number as our own air losses. Elbonia's air war lasted from 10:42 am on April 9th, 1916, through 1:09 pm on April 9th, 1916.

[@jeffprice6421]

The knerling on the top cover is really something. Gratuitous excellent machining... :)

[@petesheppard1709]

That charging knob is ridiculously cool! I could see it with an AR-style carry handle.

[@bootsontheground4913]

Old style AR-10 handle would look epic ngl

[@CHMichael]

Back to basics - these types of videos are my favorite. #1 gun/engineering/ history Channel

[@Hourai]

The "S" and the "K" on the receiver might refer to "Selbstlader Karabiner".

[@ethanc68]

I love the ingenuity of the first semi-auto designs. So cool.

[@psikogeek]

4:03 "no bayonet lug on it" Air-to-air bayonets never got off the ground.

[@megachimp2537]

That paint is horrible yes, but not the worst thing ive seen done to a rifle, ive seen some truly heinous things done to a m1941 johnson rifle

[@ScottKenny1978]

Like that one in .338-06 that was painted white?

[@megachimp2537]

@@ScottKenny1978 i cant remember if its the same one or not, but someone put a m16esque carry handle on it and painted it white and brown camo

[@VertietRyper]

@@megachimp2537 that's an abomination.

[@TheWirksworthGunroom]

Wow! What a remarkable survivor!

[@EchosTackyTiki]

3:44 "You're not going to get dirt and shrapnel in your rifle if you're hundreds of feet in the air" Yeah, tell that to the guys who had to make unscheduled cornfield layovers.

[@TheWarmotor]

If someone can remove paint from a canvas while leaving another painting underneath, in-tact? You'd think they could get the paint off of this rifle and restore the markings on the stock...

[@pfg72]

Great video Ian, as usual! I'm a big time aviation history buff and of course I knew that for a brief period of time before deflection plates and interrupter gear, they used to take shots at one another with rifles, carbines, pistols and revolvers (there are even some accounts of French airmen throwing bricks at German aircraft, which the Germans found extremely ungentlemanlike, being such sticklers for etiquette as they were!) What I didn't know was the thay had adopted a rifle specifically for that purpose. It never occurred to me to find out what they used and I just assumed it must have been regular infantry weapons or hunting rifles. It just goes to show you never know nearly enough! Thanks for the education. Cheers from Patagonia!

[@jarmokankaanpaa6528]

A couple pf viewers have thought this looks like a Fedorov Avtomat. The inner workings of the two are totally different (for one, the Fedorov is short recoil and has a weird side plate locking system), but one thing struck me: the magazine on both guns is for 25 rounds -- not that wonderful a coincidence -- but if you look at the pressings on the side of the magazine you'll note that they are identical. Both have a pattern consisting of 11 parallel curved lines, of which the three closest to the edge on either side are tied together at the top by a transverse baulk. Now that is too much of a similarity to be purely coincidental. The 8mm Mauser round is 7.32mm longer than the 6.5mm Arisaka of the Fedorov and the attachment is different, but I still wonder...

[@jochenmuller9388]

Hey Ian thank you for your very intresing work. I really enjoy watching your videos! As a german i guess Markings SK means it probably stands for "Selbstlade Karabiner". Seems plausible and german like to me... Best wishes to you! Please never stop producing such nice content! 👍🏻👏🏻

[@AnimeFan_2013]

Interesting to hear the Mondragon connected to this. A while back, I saw someone selling a Mondragon for nearly 10,000, but that was unfortunately when I was in a position where I couldn't afford it

[@tikalthewhimsicott2736]

So you can afford one now?

[@AnimeFan_2013]

@@tikalthewhimsicott2736 Not yet, most Mondragon's start between 20 & 30 thousand dollars anyways. Had that 9/10 thousand Mondragon shown up last year when I had money, I would've taken it & ditch the French FR-F2

[@lukeman9851]

Ian: "Flapper locked and inertia operated" Me: Ooh, so like a Degtyaryov with a stiff spring between the bolt and carrier like on a Benelli? That's actually really clever, I can see how that would- Ian opens the top cover Me: Oh right... Germans...

[@clothar23]

Love that " Oh right...Germans. " The Undisputed Masters of unnecessarily complex and over built.

[@FreeOfFantasy]

@@clothar23 There are also the Swiss rifles...

[@clothar23]

@@FreeOfFantasy Ya mean the shameless AK copies that are somehow worse than a '47 model despite costing more and looking uglier ? Or something worse ?

[@DeHerg]

At least the didn't go full G11 on it yet.

[@clothar23]

@@FormerMPSGT At least the task is completed in the end....Which is more than most German war gear can boast.

[@A-a724]

Ian: no need for a bayonet lug. Russians : if we made rifle for airplane, it would have bayonet lug. Every rifle need bayonet, Ivan will joust plane.

[@CoolSmoovie]

This rifle looks absolutely amazing. That half grip in front of the magazine looks sweer

[@JH-lo9ut]

It is so interesting to watch these videos on early self-loading rifles and pistols. Instinct tells us that technology evolves from mechanically simple to more and more complex as time go by, but here it is the opposite: the early attempts at a self-loading mechanism are all incredibly intricate and complicated. You realize that the real task of a mechanical engineer is to reduce complexity, rather than increase it.

[@SteelCipher]

been waiting 6 years for this one

[@Tracks85]

Reminds me of The Federov Automat 1916.

[@chuckbridgeland6181]

So much machining -- this had to be expensive to make.

[@ScottKenny1978]

German Machinist employment preservation. Can't go to the front, gotta make these overly complicated rifles!

[@konstantinreuther3122]

FSK is a Lable in Germany used to mark R - Rated Movies and games. This would mean that you have to be 16 or older to watch how Ian does a great video about a great rifle.

[@jort93z]

FSK is only used for movies, not for games.

[@konstantinreuther3122]

@@jort93z right forgot, that USK and FSK are not the same

[@apoth90]

... or to buy a semiautomatic antiair Rifle

[@michaelrostosky2986]

One military joke more!

[@JacobafJelling]

Fascinated by anything that is over engineered

[@storytimedavidcollins2897]

Thanks again Ian for yet another excellent video on innovations from the past that I definitely wanted to know more about this gun. And those locking lugs look like they probably had some influence on the STG45 and the G3 and everything else that followed. Very good information Ian.

[@mastermaker666]

Cleverly convoluted and excessively complificated(, lots of good mechanics and mechanisms comes out of German minds but this kind of 'umpteen things in concert to create a single note' stuff also being very German is pretty much a trope now... Great craftsmanship without ever stopping to think if the effort is worth the result...

[@theodoreroosevelt3143]

Of course i recognize this from BF1, i started watching this channel after seeing BF1's trailer yeeeears ago what a nice wholesome loop i still wait for reproduction Fedorov Avtomat shooting video

[@c.m.hahnebaum753]

Ian actually helped with BF1’s development! He is thanked in the credits.

[@theodoreroosevelt3143]

@@c.m.hahnebaum753 i know i also discowered "The Great War" channel after trailer and they helped with BF1 too i don't know if C&Rsenal helped with BF1 but they helped the devs of Verdun/Tannenberg/Isonzo

[@saladiniv7968]

the S and K probably refer to "selbstlade karabiner" or "self loading carbine"

[@tomaspabon2484]

This is the firearms equivalent of david Attenborough doing a documentary on Bigfoot. Never thought it would happen

[@OldManBob545]

what an absolutely lovely rifle, always loved how it looks and functions, every ww1 semi/full auto has its own weird and wonderful manual of arms and its always great to see the different ways people got these guns working , that paint job on the other hand.....

[@TheWarmotor]

inertial-locking is a weird system :)

[@DSS-jj2cw]

Reminds me of the AVT!

[@iamnolegend483]

“War were declared” channeling Othias.

[@cbroz7492]

Wow...NEVER heard of this rifle..thanx!!!

[@Bacteriophagebs]

Now someone needs to buy it and loan it to C&Rsenal so they can do a video on it.

[@warbuzzard7167]

I think "Being German" involves overdesigning mechanical things for non-obvious purposes, to answer questions nobody is asking. But in truth, many of these designs work well under various conditions. It's... weird.

[@justinbarton247]

Well put, applies to guns and cars.

[@eljefeamericano4308]

@@justinbarton247 I'm on my second Audi. I agree.

[@baker90338]

@@justinbarton247 and legal structures.

[@markiobook8639]

Germans prefer the term: uberdimensional.

[@JH-lo9ut]

Have you ever studied german grammar? From the standpoint of other European languages, it is totally backwards and requires you to build the entire sentence in your head before you start speaking. I always wondered what it does to the mind of a native german speaker.

[@oldfrittenfett1276]

One does not always come to the simplest solution first. But very elegant. German overengineering.

[@jensenwilliam5434]

Thank you!!

[@mylesdesertfox3957]

I would love to have one of these. This is one of my favorite guns.

[@CraigDavies-kf1cu]

Thats a work of art

[@hdawglion718]

Oh shit I thought these things were lost to time

[@rickjohansson3202]

This would be so fun to shoot… really innovative design, unique and highly over engineered… I immediately spotted the similarity of the mag with the mg-13 but I’ve never seen this rifle…

[@bloodharrier3333]

You can just tell that Lee Lemon has real love for this rifle. ❤️

[@ak47_762_]

I can’t help but see a grandfather of the sks

[@ic3olate]

This is truly one of the most aesthetically pleasing firearms I've ever seen, both inside and out, especially from the time period. I freaking love that charging handle in particular.

[@sheevpalps66]

Ian is in the game's credits as an advisor

[@RaDeus87]

Maybe the S stand for selfloading and the K kurz/Karabine ?

[@EIBBOR2654]

I was thinking along the same lines as you with the S an K. But I was thinking the S might have stood for the newer 7.9 mm Spitzer bullet ammunition. There was a redesign of the 7.9 mm (8 mm Mauser) cartridge in 1898 designated the Patron 88 (Cartridge 88), The Bullet diameter was .318" (8.08 mm). But the new French designed 8 mm Le Belle had started a military rifle ammunition revolution. Because of this, the German military and ammo manufacturers further refined their 8 mm bullet around 1903 and increased the diameter to .323" (8.20 mm) and higher chamber pressure. This became the S Patron. The rifles chambered and barreled for the older cartridge could not use the this new ammunition without devastating results. Some of them with receivers that could handle the higher pressures, were re-barreled for the new larger diameter ammo and were stamped with an "S" on the barrel. However the new rifles that were chambered for the new 7.92 mm ammo were also stamped on the barrels with an S to show they were chambered for the new 7.92 ammo. Though the older ammo with the smaller .218" bullet could be fired from the new chambering, the accuracy was terrible. I've seen several German rifles from WWI and WWII that had that "S" and "K" marked somewhere on the barrel. Some like this one with the serial number and others with the "S" stamped on the barrel and the "K" in the model number or somewhere on the receiver if it was a long rifle that was re-barreled to the carbine standard, usually with the SN on the receiver.

[@johnking6252]

Fine looking piece of machinery. Nice looking weapon also , for pre-WW1 . Like it.

[@Gegs12]

Could the S and K not stand for Selbstadler Karabiner?

Very intersting snapshot from history

[@johnschofield9496]

It's not likely we will ever see this engineering again. Turn of the century firearms are true marvels !

[@paoloviti6156]

The Flieger Selbstadler Karabiner 1916 just by looking at it ie almost totally unsuitable for trench warfare not that easier to produce than the more famous Mauser Mod. 96 of which during the will be re-chambered with the 9 Parabellum. Both were extensively milled with most were numbered to the "chassis" and the pistols were very often hand adapted to the specific gun! The rifle was very expensive and not suitable for mass production. Nevertheless a wonderful rifle, good job as always 👍👍👍

[@alun7006]

Beautiful piece. Very unusual action - I think the only other inertially-operated guns I've seen are shotguns? Very coo.

[@ryanr.3925]

that charging handle is fkn wicked

[@BROTRRer]

Hopefully Othais will buy it so he can feature it on his show. Might need to sell a few t-shirts first tho

[@alexanderwhite8320]

From the silhouette this rifle looks like Fedorov Avtomat. Convergent evolution of firearms.

[@that1guyonpoint213]

I loved this gun in Battlefield 1! Such a beautiful gun!

[@benjamincooper9455]

Same

[@Njazmo]

Sofa soldiers... Have you ever fired a real gun?

[@that1guyonpoint213]

@@Njazmo calm down buddy

[@andyroberts4387]

@Njazza you’re hard.

[@AKS-74U]

Relying on a small plate to stay in place based on Newtons first law is insane.

[@chrnc]

Thank you

[@Cuccos19]

Amazing how complicated were the first firearms of their category. Plenty of small parts and plenty of engineering. And also the quality, fit and finish were also excellent without any modern manufacturing technics like CNC and so on.

[@Glaaki13]

I love to see it again

[@ES90344]

I'd love to bring back Mauser and JMB to show them how simple self loader rifles are now.

[@rubenop7]

One of my favorites from bf1

[@Indylimburg]

Such a beautiful gun.

[@marvindebot3264]

The machining on this rifle is exquisitely done.

[@joshuamitcham1519]

ww1 biplanes initially used for observation,had leather rimmed cockpits its likely that handguard would have rested against the thick,leather covered pad of an observers cockpit rim.. that would explain the geometry.

[@radiatingfuture1007]

Did everyone see all quite on the western front on Netflix? It’s amazing a true gift! Hollywood has got real competition

[@cyrilhudak4568]

I thought Paul was actually going to make it.

[@radiatingfuture1007]

I know me too, great story line, most of the Character deaths where random and unexpected, war is hell

[@django0505]

sk on the serial is "selbslader karabiner"

[@jonathanohagan1349]

So, this is a really important firearm of its day. Semi auto, mag fed...and rejected!!! Thank God.

[@monarchist1838]

Very exotic weapon. Something you could see on Star Wars.

[@theronraam23]

Don't give the rich nerds ideas, they've already ruined a good amount of the C96s

[@VertietRyper]

@@theronraam23 thankfully Disney would be too cheap to do that now. They'd probably 3D print a fake one lol

[@theronraam23]

@@VertietRyper not those rich nerds, the fanboys who would drop the money on a genuine Thompson just to butcher it into a pulse rifle from aliens.

[@onmilo]

"The Flapper Rifle! Oh honey. You'll shoot your eye out!"

[@raikbarczynski6582]

THe SK on the serial number could simply be the short for SelbstladeKarabiner

[@Mikshvert]

The shape looks a lot like Fedorov Avromat!

[@phillipsmiley5930]

Maybe Mauser got a look at fedorov's avtomat?

[@UserName-ln5ol]

A video on realistic use of bolt action rifles in guerilla warfare in a home front defense scenario would be great.

[@rianfelis3156]

I wonder if the paint on this one was intentionally done to hide the military markings? I can see that being done either as a way to save it from being scrapped and put into a civilian's hands(see? no markings, obviously this isn't one of the ones that would be in treaty violation!) or as anti-german sentiment rose during WW2 so that anyone seeing it on the range wouldn't accuse the owner of being a sympathizer. Of course, without a history of the specific gun, this remains pure speculation.

[@brianpeterson9950]

depending on the type of paint, it would be quite easy to chemically remove it without harming the wood underneath, and pull newer paint off older paint or out of engravings. Although I'm sure nobody wants to be the one attempting so on a 106 year old firearm!

[@brittakriep2938]

When you visit Waffenmuseum in Oberndorf am Neckar, you can also visit Heimatmuseum/ homeregion museum with the same ticket, it is in the same floor of the building. During wwl, Mauser factory was attacked by some airraids, so there was a small antiaircraft unit. One day they shot down two britisch pilots, in Heimatmuseum there is a photo taken at the pilots funeral, it shows the german priest and a number of german soldiers. So this rearline soldiers had still respect for an enemy, who died in action.

[@marvindebot3264]

There was a great deal of respect for airmen on both sides of WW1, Von Richoften for example received a funeral with full military honours.

[@TheDragonGamerTV]

So you guys remember that C96 aircraft mount? The one with 10 of them? What if they did something like that, with this gun?

[@onpsxmember]

Noice! I hope that gets on the table at some point. I wonder if there was a loading tool to load 5 at the same time and then flip it over.

[@normanmccollum6082]

... but how about this question; how much does it cost to purchase 10 of those rifles, and how much did the plane itself cost? lol

[@TheDragonGamerTV]

@@normanmccollum6082 All you would need is one plane dude. I don't think the Germans would mind that this one plane loaded up with these rifles costs at much as the Ardennes offensive.

[@normanmccollum6082]

@@TheDragonGamerTV Just saying, if those rifles are particularly expensive, I dunno, might have almost as much money worth in rifles on that plane as the cost of the plane itself lol One downed plane, potentially twice the supply/money lost, plus a likely-dead pilot. Sure, one can be tried as an experiment, but it just doesn't seem feasible to me.

[@TheDragonGamerTV]

@@normanmccollum6082 It's mainly a joke my guy. I sure wouldn't want 10 8mm Mauser rounds being fired at me while I'm flying a canvas and wood plane.