MECH G3 Thermal Update!

[@BobOfAllTrades]

That background noise was the Zephyrus G15 roaring about 15 feet from the mic. Multitasking FTW!

[@fortnitelaptopplayer4641]

Hello, which Intel Laptop is the best to get with a 30xx NVIDIA card? I am thinking about the Aorus 15g with the 3060. Does the 15g/17g have good thermals and performance? I prefer not to have an AMD machine, only really like Intel.

[@sushimshah2896]

Holy!! 😮

[@sushimshah2896]

@@fortnitelaptopplayer4641 Any specific reason why you like/want Intel?? Anyways Omen 15/Legion 5i/Helios 300 or even the updated GL/GP should be good imo

[@sushimshah2896]

Just wish a similar company operated in the smartphone segment.

[@fortnitelaptopplayer4641]

@@sushimshah2896 I really like Intel as I have more trust in them and they have a higher clock speed

[@MaxwellDog1]

Honestly, Eluktronics should hire you or have you involved part time with testing, quality assurance, and thermal designs for their new products.

[@BobOfAllTrades]

I’m open to that 👍

[@MaxwellDog1]

Well did I call it or what? Lol

[@BobOfAllTrades]

Lol! 5 months ago that was a pipe dream….4 months ago that was becoming a reality 🙏

[@shadowofintent9393]

This shows Liquid Metal is a must now.

[@justswitched8841]

Gotta know what ur doing though or else you'll fry your computer.

[@justswitched8841]

I knew a guy who tried to liquid metal his 5 thousand dollar area 51m laptop. He fried the motherboard in the.process.

[@TheMash84]

Not a must, it isn't for everyone. It's a very difficult and risky operation.

[@asilkamal5959]

Bob, you made my day!!!!! Im so happy they went with LM. I guess I'm not cancelling my order after all.

[@zgoaty9235]

Damn, so to really get good cooling performance in these Ampere laptops, we’d have to go back to the thicker chassis designs which I personally wouldn’t mind, but I understand the direction that people want these companies to go where they’d rather have better portability and sacrifice a bit of performance for it. Thank you for posting the repaste results👍

[@deksroning125]

If people want thinner chassis, and better portability, they should opt for say 6 cores options, or better yet, U CPU lines (aka 15-28W TDP). My own Acer Predator Helios 500 PH517-61 with desktop Ryzen 2700 and Vega 56 has a thick chassis, but the end result is that the CPU doesn't go above 72 degrees C, and the GPU stays at 65 degrees C... this is when BOTH cpu and gpu are stressed to the maximum at the same time. To be fair, if I want to carry this thing with me, I just put it in my backpack and that's it (its not really complicated). If I wanted anything more portable, I'd probably get a Zen 3 laptop that has 5800u (but I've also grown accustomed to 17" screen - although, nothing is preventing OEM's from designing 15-17" thin laptops with U series Zen 3 APU's - in fact, those might end up having really good cooling due to the sheer size and some interesting play on the cooling without increasing the thickness - for those who like bigger screens and can make due with U series - though to be fair, the U series is on par with a lot of desktops as is, so it wouldn't be a problem for gaming either). But for gaming laptops which have more TDP demanding hw, thicker chassis might be necessary these days (coupled with high performance thermal paste such as liquid metal) especially when you take into account the fact that lower 7nm results in more heat output. But OEM's also need to rethink cooling if you ask me. The existing cooling designs are ancient and need to be redesigned with superior carbon based derivatives which would effectively allow for passive cooling for even most demanding components.

[@ngeorge9673]

At the end of the day, these are laptops so reasonably people are going to want them to be thin even if that mean sacrifice a couple of frames. These things need to be mobile; otherwise what's stopping you from just getting desktop that'll perform better for cheaper. I think rather than designing thicker chassis, manufacturers just need to redesign their cooling systems. They can afford to make them a little thicker since they don't need to be the thinnest things in the world, but cooling comes mostly from within and with better cooling systems, laptops of all shapes and sizes will be better off.

[@deksroning125]

@@ngeorge9673 That IS what I said as well (that the cooling needs to be redesigned as those hadn't changed fundamentally in decades). However, thicker chassis doesn't mean a laptop isn't mobile. In fact, I usually carry my laptop with me despite its thickness (which isn't THAT huge). It's still portable (and therefore, usable on the go)... unlike a desktop.

[@ngeorge9673]

@@deksroning125 I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you lol. Just saying that they don't need to be that much thicker since most people (this is excluding the niche of gamers that don't mind carrying thick laptops) aren't going to want to be carrying the super thick chassis that laptops used to have alongside other stuff they pack in their bags or hold in their hands. I agree that they don't need to be paper thin though as there is little benefit to that and decreases cooling ability by quite a lot. Increase the thickness a little bit and focus on cooling like you said.

[@deksroning125]

​@@ngeorge9673 Oh I know that. And I do agree with you that existing thickness shouldn't be a problem if the cooling design (and materials of choice) are altered for the better. Problem is that OEM's don't really do this kind of thing as their primary goals are 'cost efficiency' and 'profits'. Otherwise, they could have used different carbon based materials (such as synthetic diamonds, carbon nanotubes and even graphene) as a synthetic composite to replace existing material of choice and overall cooling design in the past 20 years. However, thicker laptops (such as my desktop replacement PH517-61 with Ryzen 2700, Vega 56 and 16GB RAM) DO exist and a lot of people use them (plus mine is cooler and quieter than 95% of laptops on the market... and some desktops even). They aren't difficult to move about... in fact they are 100x easier to move than a desktop. As for the price... I'd agree with you on getting a more powerful PC for the same price, however, you cannot move a PC generally without a lot hassle. Plus, back in 2019, I bought my PH517-61 (ryzen 2700 and vega 56) for £1400 here in UK. Interestingly, I would have paid similar for a desktop with same specs back then (especially with the monitor, and all other stuff when you factor in MSRP prices at the time). And the thing is still plenty powerful for both gaming and content creation... plus I can carry it anywhere. If Acer made an extra effort in releasing a microcode BIOS update for it, I could easily stick a 5950X into it without much trouble or thermal issues. :D At any rate... yes I do see your point... but at the same time, I don't mind thicker laptops as that doesn't impede on their portability that much for me. And with existing (outdated) cooling design options from most OEM's who don't even adapt it to the particular hw, I'd go for a slightly thicker (albeit quieter and cooler) design than a 'thin and light' which is hot and loud.

[@sundarrajanvishal]

May be the number of heatsinks and fan size beds to be increased. 90c with a metal paste is too hot

[@Codyl744]

I believe a lot of manufacturers and consumers were expecting AMD 5000H to run cooler. Hence only two shared heat pipes on the AMD cpu for Tongfang. Bad call and bad communication between AMD and manufacturers.

[@Bryanj2222]

Great video. Do you think a 17inch laptop will be better at managing thermals than a 15inch? I've been eyeing the prometheus. Also, is there a reason they do not put liquid metal on the GPU? Just too many metal pieces around it or something?

[@BobOfAllTrades]

Nvidia won’t allow it. Other companies that do this are voiding the warranty and putting that on themselves. That doesn’t effect the buyer, just the reseller.

[@manz5377]

Liquid metal (conductonaut) performance degrades after around 2-3months if the cpu continuously run above 80C-85C..was the case on my rb15 with the 8750h cpu... hopefully this is not the case for everyone, but others beware

[@abdulazizalfaqih1990]

As always> AMAZING CONTENT!

[@aryansanghariyatxb8646]

hey Bob I think you should call out the core number desparity between the desktop rtx 3070 and laptop rtx 3070 I just saw that the rtx 3080 (150W laptop) which has rougly the same number cuda cores to a rtx 3070 desktop performs equal to a desktop rtx 3070. They are basically selling the same gpu for more profit to laptop makers. They excuse by saying it is hard to cool a 8000cuda core rtx 3080 desktop but it will be the same 150w the laptop odm will pump into it .They just want more profit by selling same silicon for more money.

[@BobOfAllTrades]

I already did that in a “Beware” video featuring the 3070 over a month ago. In fact I’m usually several months ahead of the mainstream channels about this stuff.

[@aryansanghariyatxb8646]

@@BobOfAllTrades Ohh ya I remember I think more main stream channels should call out nvidia for this things

[@ssjtom118]

Will you be reviewing the 3080 model of the Mech 15 G3 when that unit becomes available?

[@Frencho9]

Thanks for the info Bob, these Ryzen 3 5800H mobile CPUs are just as hot as original 8th gen Intel coffee lake CPUs, damn, they are this close to 100C Tjunction like that i7-8750H/i9-8950HK! So applying liquid metal on the CPU and then cooler master thermal paste on the GPU? I wonder what happens when one has to repaste the GPU after a couple of years? But If the user removes that heatsink just to repaste the GPU wont it mess up the perfectly, evenly applied liquid metal on the CPU? I mean I have seen videos of fellas removing the heatsink sloppily and while doing so squirting the liquid metal on the MOBO frying it, cough Louis Rossmann cough...Should the user also have to reapply liquid metal then? I'm a bit reluctant about this heterogeneous approach for thermal interfaces, Liquid Metal is no joke and many average joe might damage the laptop while wanting to repaste just the GPU. My laptop from HIDevolution came with Conductonaut liquid metal on both SoCs and it's warranted for the life of the system. bought it in September 2019 and have not noticed any thermal degradation and they claimed It should last many years. Edit: I see now HID evolution for 95$ only puts Liquid Metal on the CPU and Gelid Extreme (mediocre paste TBH) on the GPU instead of Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut on both SoCs, I would never have opted for that kinda of thermal upgrade back then, such a downgrade and still costs the same 95 USD...

[@PCPAyLOAD]

So we chatted about my Max-17 RTX 3070 variant last week and you asked if I'd be willing to spill the beans a little bit. I wish I had better news but I ended up having to send it back to Eluktronics. Chatted with Matthew at Eluktronics who was awesome but turned out to be defective (assumed) and had to be returned so they could investigate the possible defect.

[@Alex-yq8hk]

wat was the defect

[@PCPAyLOAD]

@@Alex-yq8hk Smelled like burning plastic when gaming

[@pvtcmyers87]

That’s pretty awesome news! :)

[@mramo11]

I ve bought hp omen17 cboo14nm, i was wooried about thermals, and right so, cause playing on max eg doom eternal i was hittinh over. did undervolt yesterday, -0,080V and now still playing on ultra with temps hitting 65 max :D

[@muhammaddiyormurodov2126]

Great video, please test pubg and csgo and fortnite benchmarks, is it ok to get 90+ celcius hot?

[@Thatkiwiguy]

I have the Australian variant of this. 5800h / 3070. Jeez it runs hot, came here hoping for a solution but alas. I am in the process of trying to figure out a good profile for light gaming where the cpu can run cooler & therefore not have a jet plane taking off next to me.

[@franksanjur8075]

Good for them. This is one of the laptops I am considering but those thermals are worrying. Unfortunatley I don´t have easy access to elutktronics. Bit far.

[@bradbeyers9028]

You called it Bob, a year ago you predicted Ryzen would be toasty with 70-80 series GPU's.

[@BobOfAllTrades]

Well yeah, I wasn’t blowing smoke. There’s a reason why Asus is putting Liquid Metal on theirs. The Zephyrus G15 has LM on its CPU and still runs into the 80’s paired with an 80w GPU. Imagine that laptop with 45 more GPU watts to cool.

[@gsouliaris]

@@BobOfAllTrades scar 15 & 17 with Ryzen 5900hx and rtx 3070 130watt has max 85 Celsius on CPU!

[@BobOfAllTrades]

@@gsouliaris That’s what people said about the Zephyrus G15 too and I’m easily over 90c with Maximum fan and 10 minutes of BF5. However, i still think that Scar is the best Ryzen choice so far 👍

[@gsouliaris]

@@BobOfAllTrades I agree with you.. scar series especially 17" is best choice for Ryzen CPU!!!

[@franksanjur8075]

How would Coollaboratory Liquid MetalPad fair compared to the 3 solutions that were tried? And on another note How much worse Would the 5900hx and 3800 be?

[@Fella-Bot]

Make AMD + 3070 available, for gods sake!

[@BobOfAllTrades]

Sorry the laptop tree hasn’t been watered 🤪

[@awsan111]

Bob, thanks for the update but I wanted to discuss the usage of LM on the CPU and non conductive on the GPU, my problem with a setup like this is that eventually you will need to repast that GPU and if someone is not familiar with LM there is a huge chance they might short things out when changing the GPU paste if they were not careful. As eluktronics are working tightly with tongfang can you ask if we are gonna arrive at that future were repasting is a thing of that past? (LM CPU + GPU that is factory calibrated)

[@BobOfAllTrades]

I brought that to their attention last week and they said they haven’t had any issues due to high GPU temps so I just left it at that.

[@pikachuclasico2366]

@@BobOfAllTrades I wanted to get a mech g3 but I’m not too rich too have it short. If we get it with LM is there a chance it might short after warranty?

[@julioc4978]

Great review, What's the best thermal past in based on your tests? I see that there is a new Cooler Mater Maker New version cheers

[@Frencho9]

Check his channel, like 6 months ago he did a thermal paste comparison video. Personally, for gaming laptops, number 1 is Phobya Nanogrease 16W/mK, followed by IC Diamond 4.5W/mK. Simply because they have enough viscosity to fill the gaps on loose laptop heatsinks, you get much better contact surface and also much less pump out effect. Anything else just pumps out in a year or less if you have a loose, low pressure heatsink, especial thermal grizzly Kryonaut (too thin). These two can last 2-3 years before a repaste on a heavily used gaming laptop. My laptop has liquid metal on both CPU and GPU, but I always repaste office computers, friends and family non gaming low wattage PCs with IC diamond, because it can last almost 5-7 years or so depending on use, I repaste once and I'm done for the life of that system no yearly or every other year repaste hassle. If I did not have conductonaut liquid metal I would use Phobya nanogrease on my personal gaming PC and repaste once I notice thermal degradation (2-3 years from what I read on notebookreview forums).

[@mali5469]

@@Frencho9 I have been looking for phobya nanogrease but it is not available here, so decided to go with thermal grizzly hydronaut. Hopefully it will be just as resistant to pump out and long lasting

[@Frencho9]

@@mali5469 You will have to repaste in a year if lucky, 6 months if not. Hydronaut is not as thermal conductive as Kryonaut. Depending on the state of your stock paste it can be a moderate to slight improvement in thermals.

[@mali5469]

@@Frencho9 yeah it is a pity that you can't have a well performing and long lasting paste at the same time. My other option would be the carbonaut pad but it is electrically conductive and kind of hard to get it right so decided to go with hydronaut. I just cant see myself removing my upside down mobo on my laptop every 6 months

[@cemsengul16]

I wish liquid metal lasted longer than 2-3 months or I would consider using it.

[@sergestar4536]

That aero looks badass mmm 😋

[@BobOfAllTrades]

Aero daily here for the last 2+ years 👌

[@bradhaines3142]

@@BobOfAllTrades got the 15x v8 at launch, still using it right now. runs like a CHAMP (after excessive tuning to the cpu lol) and ive replaced literally everything on the board haha. ax200 wifi, 32gb CL15 ram, 1tb pcie 2tb sata drive. even the paste has been replaced a few times, next time i'll be replacing a couple screws lol

[@sergestar4536]

@@bradhaines3142 I know what u mean that's what I did with my GS66 stealth last years model. Lol 😂 that thing is falling apart on me . No the strongest build. the asus GU 503gv hero 2 was much much much more stronger and the screws were stronger as well as the hinges . I'm not saying it's bad but it's not that great either . The cooking is able to keep up with like RTX 2070 super 115 watt or more and yet I'm confined to rtx 2070 max q an 80 watt at that . My next laptop is gonna be probably an Asus the just make strong laptops . Or an HP or Lenovo cuz they caught up finally

[@bradhaines3142]

@@sergestar4536 i really hate the hp/lenovo style though, too blocky, i might get aorus if my budget allows it or asus, most likely eluktronics. but i have a year or 2 before it might be worth doing for me so i'll stick to enjoying this

[@boy638]

@@bradhaines3142 What paste do you use? How hot does the CPU & GPU run during heavy gaming?

[@gsouliaris]

Bob I think you are too lenient about Eluktronics...

[@BobOfAllTrades]

How’s that and to what are you comparing this against?

[@eneckchalk]

Bob I have the Mech-15 G3 R9 5900HX RTX308016GVRAM 32G RAM and when I play overclocked I'll be playing at beautiful FPS and once the gpu hits 86 degrees it throttles down from as high as 166watts to 143watts and drop significant frames. What can I do? Are there any laptops with these specs that don't thermal throttle. If I run the display through an external monitor would that reduce the gpu temp or raise it?

[@nellatl]

Why start a MECH G3 review with an aero laptop?

[@BobOfAllTrades]

Is this a review?

[@DeepteshLovesTECH]

Reduce the TDP or make PHAT Ryzen 5000+Rtx 3000 laptops.

[@letmetryscience4535]

Is it an option that they're going to charge extra for?

[@giantzebrah]

Does this include Max 17 orders as well?

[@kaden19]

Would you recommend liquid metal on an Alienware m15 r3 10875h, or kingpin kpx? Dell/Alienware seems to be comfortable maxing out the cpu at 100c whereas I am not. The cpu uses a vapor chamber. I'm getting 4ghz under load at 100c and max fan.

[@BobOfAllTrades]

Those tend to need a lot more work than new/better paste. Their cooling is weak and their power limits tend to be a bit too high.

[@kaden19]

@@BobOfAllTrades 107w pl1 and pl2. New paste is worth a try as that's the last thing left to try. Used throttlestop and undervolted it, reduced power limits and still 97c ish.

[@BobOfAllTrades]

@@kaden19 wow I’d reduce the power limits big time. Wonder what the CPU can pull while the GPU is loaded. What GPU?

[@kaden19]

@@BobOfAllTrades So I have a 2070 super mobile. cpu sits comfortably at 76c at 115w. cpu at 100c at 45w while gaming, under a cinebench stress test with 100% fans 80w and 100c. Both tests with a .125mv undervolt on the cpu. I don't want to push it more but I suppose I could try.

[@nyyke]

Hey Bob, I ordered xmg neo 17(ryzen 5900hx/rtx 3080). And I was wondering to use carbonaut on cooling solution, what is ur opinion with these thongfangs? At least it has to be undervolted to keep temps under 90C. It would be awesome if u could tell ur opinion on this thermal issue 🤷‍♂️

[@BobOfAllTrades]

Ryzen mobile cannot be undervolted. These CPUs run hot. I actually talked about this many times starting one year ago. Once you combine these processors with higher wattage GPUs, the heat is on 👍

[@nyyke]

@@BobOfAllTrades how about limiting wattages with control center? Or did I missunderstood what u did on that mech? 🤔

[@BobOfAllTrades]

@@nyyke Yup wattage reduction is different than undervolting. The HX should be a better binned CPU but still expect 90c per the same testing I provided with this 5800H 👍

[@WeldingManDE]

Hey Bob, I also bought a XMG Neo15 with 5900hx and rtx 3080... XMG unfortunately do not offer a liquid metal solution for now, do you think this thermal issue is a big thing we need to worry about in long time use?

[@BobOfAllTrades]

Nope, just dial back the wattage till you’re happy. I showcase a beating because that scenario is a likely one for many and moving forward as titles before more demanding too.

[@adrianlobono9592]

This is a mess. I'm I to understand that the people who ordered the G3's with the 5800H and 3080's get the thermal upgrade but those, like myself, who ordered the Prometheus with the same specs don't get the upgrade? 70 FPS is huge difference. As I'm' typing on my Zephyrus G15 with liquid metal applied, a better screen, much better speakers, a better keyboard and trackpad for a 1000 dollars less, I can't help think why did I order this laptop. Bob, your knowledge of computer thermals is impressive. Keep up the good work!

[@BobOfAllTrades]

70fps?

[@adrianlobono9592]

@@BobOfAllTrades Sorry, from your video it looks like with liquid metal the FPS is 232 FPS and the stock paste the FPS is 145, right? So that quite a difference! I've learned a lot from your videos. I've learned from you that running at 1080p is more thermally challenging than at higher resolutions. Makes sense why you ran the test this why. I'm very grateful for your videos! Thank you very much Bob! Dr. L

[@adrianlobono9592]

way * first day with the new fingers lol

[@BobOfAllTrades]

@@adrianlobono9592 I verbally stated and labeled the left two results as QHD and the Right test with Liquid Metal as FHD with an explanation as to why that was done.

[@adrianlobono9592]

@@BobOfAllTrades Got it! Makes more sense. My apologies! :)

[@justswitched8841]

I finally repasted dell g7 7700. It dropped to 94 degrees for maybe a day or two then it gets back up to 100.

[@BobOfAllTrades]

Any fan control on those?

[@justswitched8841]

@@BobOfAllTrades yeah I have them set at 85 percent

[@BobOfAllTrades]

@@justswitched8841 Interesting so you can control the fans? That’s awesome!

[@mali5469]

What paste did you go with?

[@justswitched8841]

@@mali5469 phobya nano grease extreme

[@ACE112ACE112]

-5 C is nice but 90°C would probably still flame my hands.

[@squallleonhart6747]

👀

[@neosrt10]

I wanna see how the G15 Zeph w 5900 lower watt 3070 ( no mux) gpu compares to the mech g3 with 5800 and higher watt (mux) 3070 ..so excited

[@BobOfAllTrades]

It gets smoked

[@neosrt10]

@@BobOfAllTrades Damn Asus even comes with liquid metal on CPU too. Well waiting on that G15 video Tested n reviewed by Boat.

[@BobOfAllTrades]

I’ll start posting G15 Tested content Monday 🤛

[@ACE112ACE112]

When the video for Teated is longer than 3 minutes.

[@BobOfAllTrades]

When has that happened?

[@ACE112ACE112]

Bob Of All Trades This seems like a video more for Tested but you needed to adhere to the

[@BobOfAllTrades]

@@ACE112ACE112 This is a video for BOAT because that’s where the review was and that’s where the previous topic regarding a thermal update was. It wouldn’t make sense otherwise.

[@gsouliaris]

Very bad temperatures...asus and msi have much better temperatures especially on cpu!!!

[@firasbajjar]

MSI yes. ASUS with their garbage quality control and horrendous support a HUGE NO. Their support has no problem whatsoever with your machine running at 95C and they also don’t have any problem in lying to your face and telling you that your machine isn’t thermal throttling.

[@gsouliaris]

@@firasbajjar I have scar 17 and has excellent temps and quality...I think it is each person's personal opinion!

[@firasbajjar]

@@gsouliaris 3 GX502GW machines overheating like crap with 95C+ temps in gaming in only 35W for CPU when the TDP of the thing is 45W (GPU is 115W). Also seeing similar complaints on the scar, you are lucky that you have one that doesn’t thermal throttle. Did you repaste? Edit: I just checked out your specs based on a video of yours. Of course your temps are excellent you have a 90W GPU. The mech G3 has a 125w+15w GPU and can do 50W on the CPU. Something that ASUS can only dream of thanks to their garbage quality control on their thermal paste and other stuff. (Had to take my GX502GW three times to the service center. Replaced mobo, thermal solution and fans. Used to run as hot as satan’s balls, now it runs hot as hell i guess? Still does not achieve what has been advertised and support decided to lie after realizing the obvious flaws of their machine)

[@gsouliaris]

@@firasbajjar if you have any doubts look at GizmoSliptech review on Scar 15 with rtx 3080 130watt and Ryzen 9

[@firasbajjar]

@@gsouliaris Well i don't trust them because of their spotty reviews and they aren't very detailed about laptop's temps, also ASUS has the tendency to send good models to reviewers and what the consumer receives is another story, because i can confirm this for three Zephyrus S15 GX502GW here. These things were praised to have zero thermal throttling and look where we are. I recommend you check out ultrabook review's review (I trust em because they got the exact bad results im getting on my Zephyrus that is before asus's bad thermal paste degraded quickly for the third time so now it’s even worse) on Scar 15 G33QS (5900HX, RTX 3080 115W+15W dynamic boost) I encourage you to look at Battlefield V Turbo temperature graph. The scar's 15 is 87.1C average at a small average 34.4W, classic ASUS. The mech G3 at only 3 degrees higher (90.1C) destroys it with an awesome 49W. Heck even the Scar 15 GPU's is slightly lower at 123.4W than mech G3's 123-126W yet again mech G3 is 78C and Scars 15 is 80C. In conclusion, Scar's 15 temperatures are much worse on CPU (34.4W at 87.1C, really?) and so your argument that mech g3 temps are worse than asus is false. ASUS loves to cut corners especially on CPU's cooling and this ain't nothing new. Edit: some small mistakes here and there. also wanted to note that scar 15 is liquid metal so obviously we are gonna compare liquid metal to liquid metal. Now asus quality control is garbage and so probably most of the time the liquid metal application would be terrible so the machine with a good repaste should perform well but that is my point, their machines are ruined by terrible quality control.