Let's Clarify Some Things About Clinical Experience | Ask Dr. Gray: Premed Q&A

What counts as clinical experience? How many hours should you have when applying to med school? And is it okay to keep working a non-clinical job as a premed? All those questions and more on today's Ask Dr. Gray: Premed Q&A!
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Today's student is applying to med school in 2021 to start in 2022. She's currently working as a server while doing a DIY postbac program to raise her science GPA. Her questions are about clinical experience.
She has thousands of hours of medically-related activities like being a physical therapy aid, being a pharmacy tech, helping out at a pediatric oncology summer camp, and doing clinical research. But how much of that actually counts as clinical experience that is relevant to becoming a physician?
She is also wondering if medical schools might frown at the fact that she's working as a server rather than working a clinical job right now. It's a great question and a common one that students have.
It IS a potential red flag to have all your clinical experience in the past and not continuing anything up to and through the application process. But that doesn't mean you need a full-time clinical job.
Listen to hear my advice to her on how to keep her "foot in the door" of the medical world, even if she doesn't switch fully to a clinical job!

[@panfrick]

Fail-safe way: Become an MD, see patients and cure diseases, put clinical experiences on application. Solved!

[@DailyStockPicks]

Clinical experience can include activities where an individual directly interacts with patients in a healthcare setting, such as volunteering or working as a medical assistant, nurse, EMT, or scribe. Other activities that may count as clinical experience can include counseling or crisis hotlines, being a caregiver, working as a pharmacy technician, conducting COVID-19 testing, or working as a patient sitter. In general, clinical experience should involve direct patient interaction and be under the supervision of a healthcare professional.

[@bosspoisetv3269]

EXACTLY! Thank you! Very simple. We don’t need any “technicalities” or opinion-based responses. Get straight to the point!

[@chloerue5369]

I think it would he incredibly helpful if you made a video about how expectations will be about clinical experiences after this whole COVID-19 situation. I am a premed and I know that everyone keeps saying that we’re all in the same boat and everyone is losing those experiences, but I can’t help but feel like because I got kind of a late start that it won’t really be a valid excuse for me...

[@victoriapfennig6158]

i second this

[@fifaplayer-ve2zb]

We’re still waiting smh

[@stellasdoesstuff]

@@fifaplayer-ve2zb About 2 months ago he posted a video about how to get virtual clinical experience during COVID 19

[@eduardosantos-xp3iw]

I think some of the best experience comes from being a CNA at a hospital, because as a CNA you are really dealing with patients needs, and helping them in different ways. Plus you get to see how nurses and doctors work

[@Stephencox38]

Going to sign up for your Facebook group. Your videos are incredible. I am a very weird case study and hopefully will get some advice from you.

[@suzlee1780]

What interactions with a patient are considered clinical experience??? What I know are non-clinical: admin work/data entry, stocking shelves, pharmacy tech, etc.

[@jennifernettles387]

I’ve heard conflicting views on this: I am, personally, testing people (patients?) for COVID, am packaging samples to be taken to labs for PCR processing, and am gathering and documenting questionnaire answers… Does that sound like clinical experience? If people count phlebotomy as clinical experience, I think this should count, too.

[@hellotonygreen]

I worked at a behavioral health hospital and an ICF (intermediate care facility) as a tech with hands on experience with clients (who are disabled) and their program. Does that count as clinical experience? Also does experience as a drug counselor count?

[@HeLovesMoi]

I called multiple medical schools personally and asked their admissions committee representative about inpatient pharmacy technician experience. Every single school told me that they count inpatient pharmacy technician hours as clinical experience and highly encouraged me to include it on my application under “clinical experience”. A couple schools mentioned that they are definitely looking for clinical experience under the direction supervision of a physician, but they don’t discount pharmacy tech experience by any means. In a hospital setting especially, it is valuable clinical experience. I would highly encourage other students, if you think your experience should count as clinical, literally just call and ask those schools that you’re interested in.

[@daedrenashay4947]

What schools did you call?

[@jessicahollis8692]

I would not have thought to do that. Thank you so much!!!🫶🏼

[@HeLovesMoi]

@@daedrenashay4947 If I remember correctly, I called every MD school in the state of TN except Vanderbilt. And I called the only DO school in TN. I also called Burrell in NM.

[@daedrenashay4947]

Thank you so much I work in the hospital and the community so I was hoping

[@richardouellette4041]

Would being a paraprofessional phone counselor on a crisis line or suicide hotline count as clinical experience? You are directly interacting with a patient and helping with their mental health, but you are not physically with them.

[@MedicalSchoolHQ]

I would count it. Especially now with social distancing

[@MorganHorse]

That would be perfect for me! I want to be a psychiatrist, the options like CNA are very hands on, I want something more mental.

[@blaire5901]

I'm a lab service assistant- I go to hospitals, clinics, and rehab centers to collect samples and information from patients. Would you consider this clinical? I get a lot of patient interaction so I figured it was but I'm not doing anything that a doctor would normally do so I'm not sure.

[@justinefaith14]

Hi Dr.Gray! I’m a nursing student about to finish my freshman year. I have just now decided to go on the pre med track, with the intention of going to med school after taking a gap year. Do you suggest switching my major? Will being a nursing major, while also having the intentions to work for a year or so after I graduate, affect my chances at med school? Thank you!

[@mercyyoseph7098]

Hey Dr. Gray! Would volunteering at a pregnancy clinic hurt my application instead of boosting it? I've read mixed comments online saying that it would and not. I'm currently doing that but I don't want to spend half of my time on something that won't help on the long run. Please let me know!

[@bernadineguimary1062]

I’m a patient sitter and I don’t know if it counts as clinical experience. Is there any other form of clinical experience anyone recomends

[@choicegideon3555]

Hello, Would you consider working as a caregiver and a personal support worker as Clinical experience for med school application? thank you

[@virtualkookie462]

I’m a mental health therapist would this count? I’ve been working for 3 years and will be taking my mcat in the next few months. Someone told me I shouldn’t count it, but I conducted family, group, and individual sessions, complete intakes, diagnosis clients, and create treatment and safety plans. I basically do everything, but provide medications. I want to pursue psychiatry.

[@fredmcelroy2839]

How do you go about shadowing at a clinic if you are not a med student?

[@daniellachavez8553]

Hello Dr. Gray is phlebotomy a clinical experience, my responsibilities are drawing blood from patients, collecting urine samples, and collecting stool samples and transporting samples to the lab for testing?

[@ericmedenblik4589]

Hi Dr. Gray. I am just starting to get into your channel. I am in my 3rd year as a pre-med undergrad and have picked up some volunteer hours as a driver and attendant in for the local ambulance service. I was wondering how to count these hours and whether they would all constitute clinical hours. Typically I run on 12-hour on-call shifts and will get called out for roughly 2 hours (or so) each day. Would I count all 12 hours that are on call or at the ambulance station when totaling these hours in my application or do I limit it to the hours that I have actually been in the ambulance picking up patients? Additionally, I am sure that being an attendant in the back would qualify as clinical, but would hours spent as a driver also qualify as clinical hours? During these times I will be driving, but also can assist with patient care at the location of the call so It confuses me a bit on how to log those. Thanks in advance!

[@inshaaakil]

Hello Dr. Gray I'm considering starting my path to become a physician. I'm currently a certified medical assistant/ phlebotomist, have experience as a Patient Care Technician and I currently work for the VA Medical Center as a medical technician. I have over 11 years of clinical experience working directly with patients. Will my experience be sufficient for Med School Apps. I plan on still working part-time as a Medical Technician while finishing up my Bachelor's. I also want to know if finishing my bachelor's in Clinical Laboratory Science is best even though I love Psychology and want to be a Psychiatrist (thinking of switching major to B.S in Psychology)

[@martinleonguerrerogarcia3816]

Great video as always Dr. Gray! I have a question: How is working in the field of mental health viewed by adcoms? Is it given less weight in terms of clinical experience? Thank you for making these videos!!!

[@ryankelly8077]

Martin LeonGuerrero Garcia - if you’re working directly w/ patients/clients by doing psychotherapy/counseling then it’s viewed highly as clinical experience

[@fqproductions]

@Ryan Kelly i am a mental health technician working in a psychiatric hospital. I am not doing therapy but work closely with the patients for 8 hours a day doing things such as vital signs, EKG’s, collecting samples for urine analysis, etc. Would that be accepted similarly?

[@MedicalSchoolHQ]

Clinical experience is what you're doing, not where you are doing it. Interacting with patients = clinical experience.

[@armiem.6741]

Good Evening Dr Gray, I've been working as an E.R Nurse now for 4 years, will hopefully finish my Post-Bac program Next year and plan on taking the MCAT next year as well. My question is with the clinical experience I have, do I need to volunteer and shadow a doctor? My dream is to be an Orthopedic Surgeon, I have Orthopedic Surgeons that come to my ER and are OK with me shadowing with them, is it a nesccesity or should I just invest that time in studying for my MCAT.

[@saltyandsouthern]

Shadow them, you can do the mcat studying as well. You really need to shadow, whether or not it's a lot, try to get some shadowing hours when you are not volunteering

[@Thewiz729kdojdj]

imo i dont think you need to shadow at all. you've been an ER nurse for 4 years, youve probably got more clinical experience than 99% of applicants

[@natedawg5991]

Armstrong Mbah From what I’ve heard via his podcasts you can also derive shadowing hours from your work. I’m sure you’ve talked and seen what a physician does so I’m sure if you talked to the physicians in your department they’d be willing to be a contact for “shadowing”. But also a few hours of shadowing outside of your work could help. Just my two cents.

[@davidpinto2772]

Would working in organ donation performing recoveries, blood draws, and reviewing donor charts be considered clinical experience? Technically they aren’t patients because they have passed away and are no longer seen by a physician. Thoughts?

[@NiaOdoya222]

This may be a silly question but, but what about a community health worker?

[@helenbassett9488]

Hey Dr. Gray, I'm a new subscriber, but wow your content is so helpful! I am currently volunteering at a COVID-19 recovery center for the homeless. I screen people at homeless shelters for various symptoms to determine if they need to be transported to the recovery center, but I also do patient check-in and minor stuff like making sure the patients have everything they need and are hanging in there at the actual clinic. I will also be doing a lot of contact-tracing through my uni's public health program during the fall semester. Could these count as clinical experiences? Thank you!!!!

[@mercyyoseph7098]

Definitely!

[@user-fv4wx6fu7n]

Can clinical experience gained between high school senior year and college freshman be included as part of medical school application?

[@alexmartinez3683]

Oh my goodness this is my exact situation!!!!

[@mdiwan2597]

Does working full-time as a clinical research coordinator count? I work in maternal-fetal medicine and meet several patients every week in clinic, and have attend multiple surgeries for specimen collection. I manage about 5 different studies and regularly meet with principal investigators and study sponsors. Thanks so much!

[@T-lash]

Okay I read this on the internet and came to the video. Pharmacy tech literally would be good to utilize. There is so many things you learn that could 100 percent be used during medical school. Don't hate on pharmacy tech.

[@colbybreaux9493]

He’s not hating on it, it’s just not clinical experience.

[@kaiung7542]

Yeah it's not clinical though. You're just following orders basically. A fine line between pharm tech and pharmacist is clinical wise.

[@gisellegutierrez4223]

I know you mentioned that being a pharm tech doesn't count as clinical experience but what about a pharm tech who also is administering COVID shots to hundreds of patients? Would that count then?

[@losthope98]

I'd say yes because even though it is considered retail, I would consider the time you spend working with patients directly administering vaccines to be clinical. Its kind of like what he said in the middle of the video - count/estimate those specific hours.

[@Mishtisandesh]

Can you consider working as a patient observation assistant in a hospital as a clinical experience?

[@aurorarising1945]

does EKG tech or phlebotomy count as clinical exp?? (I do not want to do EMT or scribe so i opted for this)

[@what_do_you_want898]

yes!

[@joselobato7992]

can patients transpoter, be on the same pay pay scale as an orderly or CNA?

[@zombieboy124]

This is where the med school application process gets me. In her situation, as a non-traditional student, she works as a server while pursuing a DIY post-bac. Assuming that she doesn't have the luxuries and privileges of being in a traditional undergraduate experience, she is forced to be a server in order to make ends meet. I know that med school admission committees overall have a holistic approach. However, are these expectations for the amount and type of clinical experience applied to everyone? Not every school has the connections to make the clinical experience happen. Or first-generation and/or low-income students take on a campus job to sustain themselves, leaving less time for volunteer and clinical experience. Not everyone has the privilege to pursue clinical and volunteer experiences in the same capacity. This makes me question how accessible, just, and equitable becoming a physician actually is? This same framework can be applied to MCAT prep and shadowing experience.

[@MedicalSchoolHQ]

I’ve had direct conversations with Deans of Admissions and at lease some do take into account your “life situation.”

[@zombieboy124]

@@MedicalSchoolHQ The keyword is "some." I assume that the application review process has become more empathetic over time, especially within the last decade. But for the other medical schools that do not take into account "life situation," these standards and expectations can be unjust, especially if admissions committees do not take into account the opportunity gap between privileged and marginalized students. Time and time again, higher education proves to be a mechanism that perpetuates social stratification, continuing classist ideologies.

[@jennacarlson7466]

@@zombieboy124 facts. Clinical experience does not always represent someone’s internal drive to become a doctor. Yes, it helps. However, for me at least, I’ve wanted to become a doctor since I was a freshman in high school (right now i am a college senior). I also had slight ambitions as a child after my cousin had passed away from Ewing’s sarcoma. I was 7 at the time. Personal experiences will drive the desire. You don’t go into clinical without having at least some interest prior. That clinical experience may heighten that desire or diminish it, but for me I can feel internally that the former will be the case despite having little experience. As a high school senior I volunteered at a hospital in an organ transplant unit, the ICU and I had watched surgeries in the OR (i was in a program which allowed me to do so). That pretty much solidified my desire to become a doctor from the get-go. Since then I’ve been working in customer service so I know how to work with people, although in a simpler way by making their coffee. Yes it seems stupid, but it has opened me up in multiple ways; it’s changed me. In my honest opinion, expecting every pre med to have all this clinical experience, shadowing, volunteering, research, leadership is just checking boxes. It’s robotic. Is it possible for someone to want to be a doctor, and to further that desire without having all those prerequisites?

[@josedonoso4105]

Is preoperative surgical associate considered clinical experience? please let me know

[@mauricedaou2027]

i'm clinical laboratory science who worked for 4 years as a generalist microbiologist, hematologist, clinical chemist and blood banker. Is this counted as clinical experience as i am doing all the laboratory tests and as a phlebotomist drawing blood.

[@ninawey9318]

Thanks for asking this question, I am also a CLS and I've been wondering this too!

[@govinda412]

Well sorry to say but that comes under non-clinical experience.. As the subjects you mentioned are para clinical subjects of Medical School so there is no interaction with patients directly... Clinical experience is only when u examine, diagnose and treat the patient face to face..

[@fqproductions]

Does it cost money to do a Q&A with you? Where do i sign up?

[@MedicalSchoolHQ]

nope. I do them for free to help everyone. We post Q&A signups in my Facebook group - premedhangout.com

[@willneverdead7524]

How would surg tech experience be viewed? I deal with a lot of patients but the conversation is pretty minimal. But, it is certainly hands on.

[@pickle.786]

clinical

[@MedicalSchoolHQ]

Definitely clinical!

[@raulcalma-deal8792]

Medical School Headquarters This one is more random but what about registered dental assistant experience? Would that be clinical? I’m assuming yes because we are technically assisting on surgery.

[@BoxOfCurryos]

Bro just made her rethink her entire life choice 💀

[@HHSMCJROTC]

Does this invalidate being CNA at a nursing home as good clinical experience? I’m sure that I can easily explain when given the chance that was the best I could do for what I was presented at the time, but does this invalidate it?

[@kaleb3329]

HHSMCJROTC following

[@MedicalSchoolHQ]

why would it invalidate it?

[@HHSMCJROTC]

It made it sound like maybe we need to go work at a hospital instead. I wanted to ensure I understood well

[@FTG345]

How about any medical scribe experience?

[@chuksrichard3598]

I’m currently a 3rd year premed and I’ve worked as a certified nursing assistant (CNA) for over 5 years now in a hospital. That counts as clinical experience right?

[@chloebenjamin5599]

Yes it does!

[@KateBrinfour]

Would pharmacy tech count as clinical experience? Edit: Lol you pretty much answered it. But would working at a daycare and also being responsible for children and actually being in contact with them count as clinical experience?

[@ShaVaughn]

Why isn’t pharmacy tech considered clinical experience outside of the retail setting? (Ex. Hospital)

[@belindakelley5170]

im wondering the same thing

[@ewuramaantwiwaa7010]

Probably cuz it’s pharmacy. It will be better for pharmacy school. I could be wrong.

[@stackofpancakes9306]

I'm in my third week of my first semester of undergrad, when do I need to start getting clinical experience?

[@taonga-de9du]

EMT or cna license

[@assassinswinDM]

I would start now, if you can! Good luck.

[@victoriavilla7623]

So, does being a patient care tech. count?

[@pickle.786]

yes

[@HarpreetSingh-tt3io]

Isn’t CNA similar time PTA but you would say cna is great clinical I’m confused

[@pickle.786]

pta is clinical but its not like doctor/hospital career path which is his issue personally

[@majorpain8004]

Physical therapy aide isn’t the same as a pta physical therapy assistant

[@jackiele5019]

Dr. Gray, does unit secretary at an ER count as clinical experience?

[@maroonhorizon1693]

Yes

[@villajoey]

How about working as an EMT in a 911 system? Thanks

[@AB-fm7qh]

Absolutely. I have >6000 hrs as a 911 EMT over the last 5 years. As long as you are not driving on every single call it is, in my opinion, the best way you can possibly get clinical experience.

[@pickle.786]

yes

[@raafatchalar7698]

Does being a medical scribe in the ER count as clinical experience ?

[@pickle.786]

yes

[@rama4902]

I would say no because your not even allowed to touch the pt, its all about the paper work

[@pickle.786]

@@rama4902 scribing is clinical

[@jennacarlson7466]

@@rama4902 I think that’s unfair to say. You don’t need to be certified for everything under the sun to do clinical work. Medical scribe is recommended by the AAMC

[@ExquisiteAshley]

Pharmacy tech is not clinical experience? A lot of people got accepted to medical school with that being one of there clinical experiences

[@betsi9183]

Medical laboratory it can count as clinical experience

[@kirtanpatel4650]

if you can smell the patients, it's clinical experience

[@iLeona296]

I can smell this comment lol instantly

[@richasmarie]

Will a medical scribe count as a clinical experience?

[@mercyyoseph7098]

Definitely!

[@dianapena8607]

is medical scribe clinical experience? Or should I get more direct exposure such as CNA or EMT?

[@LuaLaya5]

From my experience, it depends on the school!

[@williamnettleton3413]

Clinical experience can be paid or unpaid work right?

[@martinleonguerrerogarcia3816]

Thats correct William. If you do get paid clinical experience just remember to get volunteering as well. Many people do clinical volunteering as a way of killing two birds with one stone, getting clinical experience + volunteering.

[@williamnettleton3413]

@@martinleonguerrerogarcia3816 okay solid thank you! And so along with volunteering having good shadowing hours is also needed to have a well rounded application, correct?

[@martinleonguerrerogarcia3816]

Of course no prob! Yes, shadowing proves you know what it is like to be a doctor. Its also considered clinical experience, but it is a passive activity. Good luck, feel free to ask any more questions 👍

[@williamnettleton3413]

@@martinleonguerrerogarcia3816 thanks for your time, last question for now. Diagnostic radiology is the residency I'm interested in, and what my undergrad studies are all in, radiology. Shadowing is usually done with a physician to show you want to be an MD from what I've researched. With this path and field that I'm interested in, I would look to shadow radiologists in different areas and roles. I guess the question is, are they looking for specific shadowing such as this, or more general fields to show I want to be an MD? Or is a healthy mix of both the way to go?

[@martinleonguerrerogarcia3816]

Oh nice! Yes radiology is a cool specialty! In terms of shadowing, it typically does not matter what specialty it is, as long as you’re shadowing a physician specifically, not a resident, PA, nurse, ect. I think shadowing a specialty you are interested in is great because you can reflect more deeply upon it in your application/interviews. Also, shadowing other specialties can only help you in my opinion. Its very common for people to change their minds on what specialty they want to do as they progress through med school and are exposed to other specialties, so thats something to keep in mind. Hope that answers your question!

[@nasseralharbi3607]

You are really passionate for medicine ? Trulyyyyy? go to china, 4-5k a year for med school. There are English-taught programs, profs don't always speak the best English, but manageable. 6 yrs MBBS. do your internship wherever u wanna live and work afterwards. Done lol

[@jitpersaud3989]

I’m sorry but I disagree with your opinion. For me doing a lot of clinical hours would not be as impactful on my decision to become a physician because I know that I want to be a physician from the about 200 hours that I have. For me I’m finding meaning doing extracurricular that are helping me develop skills that I would not otherwise develop if I continue to tons and tons of clinical hours. We’re going to be doing clinical for the rest of our lives, pre-med is the time to develop unique skills elsewhere that you can bring into medicine. I would stop recommending that everyone across the board just simply do “clinical hours” because it helps them prove to themselves why they want to medicine because that simply isn’t true for everyone. It’s obvious you found your purpose and drive to join medicine from your clinical hours but my drive for medicine and what I want to do with my M.D. is not driven by doing more clinical hours. I think as long as applicant can explain the purpose and meaning behind what they do, they should be ok on their application but that’s just my personal opinion.

[@kirtanpatel4650]

This is perfect

[@jennacarlson7466]

I 100% feel this. I’m approaching my senior year of college and throughout undergrad I’ve really been focused on my grades so of course I wasn’t able to do much other than that. Last semester I was a secretary for a pre professional health club and a TA for an organic chemistry lab; this summer I am doing an internship with a genetic counseling organization. I guess I’d consider myself to be non traditional applicant, although my major is biology, because I don’t have loads of clinical experience. Also, I was trying to get into a phlebotomy program last summer before my junior year started, but the pandemic had those cancelled. Throughout all my undergrad years I have been working at Dunkin Donuts because it fit my school schedule and I could at least make money to get by. I want to get out and work in a clinical setting so bad, but it has never worked out and it bothers me. No doubt I think about what I could have done every day. I’ve wanted to become a doctor since I was a freshman in high school; my passion hasn’t changed. I feel that I don’t need to work in healthcare prior to medical school to know that I want to become a doctor. Of course I will do my best to get that experience, and I know that doing so will further my desire to pursue medicine. I can picture myself as a doctor. I can already feel the joy one would know as they help a patient. What I have gathered from pre med Reddit pages and student doctor network is that it is expected that you have a never ending list of clinical experience and perfect extracurriculars, all from your years in undergrad. I just feel that it is not realistic to expect that every pre med is going to be that perfect. We all live different lives.

[@wearevengeance7824]

What about personal trainer ?

[@MedicalSchoolHQ]

Depends on who you work with but it's likely not clinical. -M

[@user-fv4wx6fu7n]

Can clinical experience gained between high school senior year and college freshman be included as part of medical school application?