MEGA VLOG 584: a look inside the Permobil F3!

[@barrymckee5709]

Thank you Dan! My daughter's M3 is on the fritz and your videos are helping to get it fixed at home instead of waiting.... and waiting.... on the seller, the insurance or any other responsible party to assist us diagnosis of 7A001 problems or Brake Communication failure before complete shutdown so no further information is being given by the chair's module for us to be able to fix in the field. I just remember the warning codes displayed right before the darn thing just doesn't ignite for lift-off anymore. So, Thank you, thank you! :)

[@JordanLoweElevaToursCanada]

Interesting look under the hood when it comes to these new F3 Power chairs, now I will know what it looks like once I get my new one.

[@merrittdegraw4313]

Thanks for the info about the green light as well as the wheel flutter, I am having problems on my M5 , it’s a couple years old!

[@MrStumpmuffin]

They definitely have a power draw when off. My first M3 when parked days later battery's dead. It was well charged and sitting in the off position with a cracked frame, I was in a loaner. But the strangest thing I noticed was every once in a while the greenlight under the cover was lit. sometimes it was steady and other times it was flashing. Without anybody touching any controls kinda odd. It's good to see you taking a part an, all too familiar, Permobil. I too like to take things apart and reverse engineer, Second guess many of the (why they do it like that) engineering. Budget not considered.

[@KYWT]

31:45 ish, woodworker in me is screaming toothpicks! nice video!

[@blindwheels]

Same here

[@Frank-xm1sx]

Thank you you’re the best I enjoyed the information on the new chairs thanks again

[@HellonWheels777]

Thanks for making this video. I get my new F3 this week, and I'll be taking notes!!

[@ipalmpre]

Thank you Dan appreciate the video and upload I'm sure I will be using it for my next chair is still in limbo I got a year to decide

[@Marcelo43]

Seeing your experience, I believe that the F3 2018 would be more reliable. Thank you very much, brother.

[@JohnBelknap]

Good to see the guts. I'm still waiting on parts to come in to use mine. With things the way they are, there's no time frame on when they'll arrive.

[@zenanidoyle7350]

Hi, I really like your channel! I enjoyed your previous Permobil F3 review! Your videos are entertaining and informative. I can’t wait to get my Permobil F5 VS!☺️

[@josephmirigliano8728]

Awesome video I always enjoy watching I don’t quite understand all the technical stuff about Wheelchair’s but it is interesting to watch

[@sbenn99]

My new version f3 is now one year old, I live on a mostly patched pothole Rd, and my plastics rattle and squeak and keep coming loose, and now my rear casters with standard f3 casters flutter. Otherwise, everything on the chair is holding up 👍 great

[@GiesbertNijhuis]

Thanks for this particular teardown! Interesting to see the differences relative to the previous generation. Are the batteries still lead/gel?

[@josephmirigliano8728]

Awesome video I always enjoy watching I don’t quite understand all the technical stuff but still it is very interesting

[@TheAAA166]

@Totally normal Hey Dan. I wish I knew that you weren't familiar with the new type of friction brake kit. My 2018 M5 uses the same system. So I'd like to share my findings with you. When you tighten down the bolt it compresses the spring washers which because the top bearing and the spring washer assembly( not really sure what the call that piece yet) rides above the ledge inside of the Caster arm, will cause a pulling force upward on the Wheel which causes more friction. The small o-ring at the bottom is really only there to prevent the bottom half from slipping, at least the best I can figure. Also wanted to talk about your wheel flutter problem. Yes it is absolutely because you are running the aggressive tread caster tires. When I originally spec out my M5 it had the aggressive tread package added. I noticed a significant amount of flutter and decided to run standard Caster tires with the aggressive tread Drive tires ever since then my Castor flutter has been minimal. Permobil only makes one version of the spring washer assembly, which is the 12-piece and yes for the record there is 12 spring washers in the assembly( I only know this from experience because while removing one from my chair it exploded and we had to pick up all the pieces.) Permobil will also tell you that this version of spring washer assembly is good for both standard and aggressive tread Caster tires. However, I highly disagree and have been very vocal about this problem. The aggressive tread Caster tires are simply too heavy and therefore cause more weight on the whole system I. E. causing more wheel fluttering! I would like them to make a 13 or 14 piece spring washer assembly option available.

[@TotallyNormal-]

awesome! thanks for the info! sounds like a number of other people here in the comments are having issues with the castor flutter as well. it seems like one should be able to add more spring washer in there potentially...

[@TheWayItIs.]

Diameter of spring rings increases when they are compressed, thus pressing on housing.

[@秦俊-h5w]

Your video very good, can you please send a dismantling the action trackchair crawler wheelchair video

[@honkleretta1050]

As for the caster flutter problems. I have to wonder why permobil never changed the axle housing to mount the wheel farther away from the centerline of the vertical pivot point. Other than they are trying to avoid some of the extra caster kick as you change directions. (front/back). ......Personally, i think I would rather live with the caster kick.

[@karenechow]

Thank you for making this video. It was very interesting. I'm going to go debug our M3 issue now. Wish me luck :)

[@leglessinoz]

A friend here has a new F3 and it doesn't have those fenders on the rear casters. My M5 that I got last week doesn't have them either. It might only be in the US. We're in Australia.

[@differentlythesame9708]

hey. you need to some work on a invarcare strome series ( i know its an old chair) but i want to fix her up. she works great just want to upgrade her and stuff

[@stormtrooper88]

hi dan! liking the new f3 the more i see! hopefully they didn't use any copper clad aluminum wire. that stuff is garbage/dangerous. that reminds me... Dan, careful getting wire for your bus off Amazon. Amazon is full of copper clad wire. Only use pure copper. Anywho... awesome f3 breakdown! ibtw: i do know verizon leases out its cell towers and i vaguely remember reading somewhere that perimobile was working with verizon. take care!

[@he15rgp81]

I had a problem of caster wheel flutter on my Purchaed New Late 2020 Sunrise Medical Quicken Puma 40 Pro S-Line Gyro RWD, when Is it hit 2-to 3mph it was returned after a Main dealer service and to be honest after a lot of cheacking the 10” castor wheel and its ajustment to the castor bearing I found what solved my problen was ajusting the Center of Gravity to the seat. Which the dealer did not admit the altered the center of gravity when they fiited, or placement of the seating when they fitted a power recline upgrade that I asks to be done at my expence to my back rest Once I moved the seat and I not the dealers I did that the flurtter disappeared completly and my chair now run at just under 7mph with no flutter ever. The dealers wanted to charge to put there error right. Needless to say I am now Useing another Compitant dealer for my service and upgrade work. Edited to add My chair went to its service with no wheel flutter of any kind and on 29 miles on the Clock from New, I had a bad feeling about the dealer to be honest, But I will not Name them though i did Make Sunrise Medical aware of the request for extra Costs This Comany wished to rip me off with. I bought My Unit New from the Dealer at totaly my own expense and I love my Chair as Much as Life Itself .

[@DonS-jq4mb]

Thank you very informative

[@rodolfosarudiansky]

I have a F5, I am from Brazil and we don't have a Permobil service here, My leg actuator sometimes fail and appear error code 2092. Im gonna buy another actuator, but there´s any chance to the problem is in any electronic board or module? Apparently the cable is fine.

[@BrandonHansen-tx6or]

So my question is I got a probable F5 given to me and it goes 36 in straight up in the air I guess but it has two dry sell car batteries I believe 12 volt to motors and 12 shots and all that I was just wondering how would I get an inspection done on it to make it so sellable

[@tarah8919]

For 35 thousand ballpark, you’d think that covers wouldn’t be flimsy plastic. Crazy specially sense some of us live in some of the most rainiest of places lol.

[@DJAllan48]

Can a q'sraints 150 bracket be mounted on the center line of the drive wheels on a F5 VS so that i can rotate the chair in the lock?

[@annoyedlemon]

try put the simcard in a ipad or a phone see if you can get data

[@rubberducky8810]

Hi Dan sorry it's been a long time just looking for your info on f5 casters flutter is driving me crazy what did you do to fix the issues? I just looked and seen mine has 12 pieces too so hum wrong part installed on my f5 casters?

[@TotallyNormal-]

yea ive heard from a number of people.. some have the 12pcs, and others the 13 pcs.. i know the parts exist, but ive tried to order them, and get told 'they are all the same' which i know isnt true... havent modified mine just yet though :^/

[@rubberducky8810]

@@TotallyNormal- ty for reply they are not the same i had my 1 caster done monday and issue is fixed on 1 side . There is only 12 pcs so ive been told but there are 2 types of this part 1 has more tension here are the part codes 330974-E / 330974-F the 1 with E is new 1 on chair . F is stock from when i got chair will send you pics in discord as well hope this clears thing up

[@kikac565]

Can you perform some suspension test?

[@goodfortune6399]

Great video thanks, my f5 is almost a year old and i have a box full of plastic parts that have fallen off so far, less squeaks and rattles. If i can get my son to pop the castor cover off we can see if it has 12pc stack or not. Can you leave the connect box unplugged from the module to keep it powered off? Im not a fan off being tracked everywhere even though i know you cant get away from it now days anyway

[@goodfortune6399]

Just looked at my f5 its 12pcs

[@TheWayItIs.]

You can put the chair in Airplane mode in the seating menu. That'll turn off all radios on chair 👍🏼

[@TotallyNormal-]

hmmmm... thats odd... smells like a conspiracy to me! LOL we shall figure out a solution to this! (castor flutter)

[@VictoriaMorehouse]

How did you get the top piece out

[@jamesevans3492]

I Am Not Amused, Or Happy To See That The Permobil F3 Shown Here In This Video, Has Some Kind Of Tracking GPU System In It, Because I Am In The Beginning Stages Of Getting 1 Of These Permobil F3 Powerchairs From A Local To Me Disabled Powerchair Company, Wherein I Have Already Been Fitted On A Demo Unit, Which I Saw And Road Around In It 2 Days Ago, Wherein It Will Be Replacing My Wearing Out Q6 Edge 2.0 Powerchair, Which I Received 5 Years Ago, Via Medicare & Medi-Cal, Through Another Disabled Powerchair Company . . . ;-o Is This GPU Tracking Unit A " Mandatory Feature " On These Permobil F3 Powerchairs, Or Do I Have The Option To Have It Left Out, And Off The Permobil F3 Powerchair ??? I Am Also Rather Concerned By The Rear Tie-Down Hooks, Which Are Short, And Stubby, Which Are Being Hidden Between The Rear Wheel Frame Bars, And The Plastic Rear Shroud, And Very Hard To See, And Get To, For The Securing Straps That Are Utilized By The Local Disabled Bus Services In My City, So Does Permobil Have Another, And Taller, Or Longer Version Of Those Metal Tie-Down Hooks, Which Come Out Farther, So That They Can Be Seen, And Hooked Into, Via The Transit Vehicles Floor Securing Devices ??? Kindly Respond Back To This Post And Let Me Know . . . Thanks . . . "-)

[@TotallyNormal-]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/j6POnGupnahqjas

[@rubberducky8810]

thank you for the great video ♿♥

[@davidjuarez1063]

I have a 2019 f5 and the castors flutter badly when I go full speed. If there is a difference between the f3 and f5, it doesn’t seem to make much difference.

[@alexray6878]

Hey Dan, I currently use 2017 M3 ( C-5 quad) and went to an estate sale and purchased a 2021 M3 that had 3 miles on it, I was going to swap some of my actuators off my older chair onto the new one and make it my primary daily chair, I had help come over got things swapped around and the old actuators wouldn’t work on the new chair, when I called to get some information they informed me that the new chairs come with smart actuators from the factory and cannot be swapped out unless brought to a dealer. Your thoughts?

[@TotallyNormal-]

yes! i had that happen when trying to swap some actuators around between chairs recently - i was able in the past to swap an actuator onto a 2016 F3 from an old C500.. i thought the system was backwards compatible.. but apparently not anymore! near as i can tell, the new firmware on the ICS modules doesnt allow for 'non-smart' actuators at this point... it would appear that 2016 is the cutoff for cross-compatibility with smart/non-smart actuators

[@leglessinoz]

The accent trims on my M5 are "carbon" colour.

[@allthingsamerican2501]

is there any mercury switches that make it go into turtle mode when going up a steep ramp or tilting back to get in a van to clear your head? my quickie does and it is a pain. i just bought s 2017-2018 f3 but didn't try it yet. will I run into same problem with f3

[@TotallyNormal-]

No mercury switches on these chairs! It’s all handled by the actual position of the actuators now :-)

[@allthingsamerican2501]

@@TotallyNormal- so i'm 6'7 quad and need to lay back to get in minivan to clear my head, also low blood pressure can't sit up. am i going to be in turtle mode all the time and does it ever turn the motors off so it wont drive? is there anyway to outsmart it or did i just buy a expensive char i won't be able to use? Thanks

[@TotallyNormal-]

Head back over to Twitter.. we can discuss things there, and get a better understanding of what’s needed.. messages there will be a bit quicker

[@harleyeckles]

I work on my M5 and M300 myself. Every time I work on anything involving unplugging and moving any wiring, I take photos before unplugging anything, and sometimes several photos if there are several steps. Although the Permobil manuals show SOME of the wiring, I have found it is sometimes not exactly the way it came from the factory. It sure makes putting things back together much easier. The plastic covers are easy to fit back on IF you put the wiring back properly. Not so much if you don't. I am very happy with my Permobil chairs. Not perfect, but close. The O-ring does not provide the friction. The O-Ring is designed to lock the lower part of the brake against the inside of the caster barrel. The friction comes from the 12 wave washers providing force and friction between the two rotating surfaces above and below the wave washers. One of the early manuals showed two type of friction brakes, 12-PCS and 13-PCS. I have tried several times to order the 13-PCS friction brakes for my M5, because its casters flutter. Everyone tells me they do not exist. I have made my own 13-PCS friction brakes by inserting an additional wave washer in each friction brake (12+1 PCS). The friction brakes are not adjustable. They work fine on with lighter tires, but I can not find any pneumatic tires that size. I will be installing my 12+1 PCS friction brakes soon, and will let you know if they work. The fork stem cap screw is supposed to be torqued to 17.7 lb.ft.. Adjusting the cap screw torque will not adjust the friction brake. I have been told that over tightening the cap screw will cause the friction brake to fall apart. I would appreciate it if anyone has a source for the pneumatic caster tires in the USA.

[@TotallyNormal-]

how did you get the assembly apart? is that lower plate press-fit into place?

[@blindwheels]

My M5, has the 13 washer setup, it annoys the hell outta our lead Tech, at my DME. The 12’s just fall apart on me. My caster flutter is insane at times.

[@harleyeckles]

I have an extra 12 PCS friction brake from which I scavenge wave washers for the other friction brakes. Here is how I take the friction brakes... I take the O-ring out of the circular slot. I have a gear puller with two claw arms, and a central threaded push rod. I hook the gear puller claws into the O-ring slot, and place a small stainless steel washer on the part of the press-fit part of the brake. That is to prevent galling. Then I screw in the threaded push rod against the washer. Grasp the claws with one hand and push them inward. Slowly screw in the threaded push rod. The brake will come apart. It does not take much to separate the brake top and bottom. Be ready to catch the wave washers. Line up all the wave washers and add the 13th. You can press fit it back together with a vice with brass or aluminum jaw guards. I have not tried the 13 PCS brakes yet, so this is hypothetical. If you need photos, let me know.

[@TotallyNormal-]

ok cool.. so its a press-on arrangement.. i can do that!! thanks man!

[@blindwheels]

@@harleyeckles yep, Tim, that’s EXACTLY how the tech at the DME, does it, he’s the lead tech for over 700 Permobil wheelchair users in the Toronto Canada area. He tries to keep 13pc one’s on hand at all times, has been authorized by Permobil Canada, to swap out any 12pc with the 13 if there’s major issues. My M5, is all 4 castors, with the 13pc.

[@Marcelo43]

Hi brother, I live in Brazil and I'm buying a permobil F3; Which would be more reliable, the new F3? or an F3 2018? Both are ok.

[@TotallyNormal-]

the reliability should be the same.. i just prefer the look of the older ones.. less plastics :^)

[@Marcelo43]

@@TotallyNormal- I feel honored to have such a quick response friend. Thank you very much for your promptness.

[@TheWayItIs.]

I think I heard somewhere that the on board charger was under the front?

[@TotallyNormal-]

no on board chargers on this chair! most chairs made in the last 10 years or so, no longer use board charging (rumors of regulatory issues or something)

[@RandyFuller-z8z]

My wife’s chair has M1 break error code. And chair will not lift. Any help would be appreciated.

[@honkleretta1050]

If you just disconnect and remove the "connect" box and wiring, because you simply don't want or need it. Does the chair throw any error messages ?

[@TotallyNormal-]

chair = honeybadger.. "it dont care!!" lol nah.. no errors etc.. the chair itself doesnt need that module for anything :^)

[@honkleretta1050]

@@TotallyNormal- Good.......In Canada that "connect" seems to be a standard (no extra cost) inclusion. And I'm not really sure I want big brother to know every time I go anywhere.....ESPECIALLY if I find it's draining my battery. I'm still fighting for the funding on my M5 to get them to cover elevation and front tilt, and it looks like I might be looking at a 2022 model now. Almost wondering if your "source" has any info if there are any changes over 2021 versions ?

[@larryerwin5135]

My 2019 f3 has stock castor's with the 12 stack clutch, they flutter bad. Let us know if the f5 clutch will fix it.

[@JordanHaisley]

My 2021 F5 flutter is still fairly poor.

[@BrandonHansen-tx6or]

Also could you tell me what 1 o n e would be worth

[@charlieburrows0827]

Mason has the same color as you but his is the f5 vs

[@stevebeck8972]

No reason to ever remove this, as he removes it. That's GREAT! - hahahahah!!

[@crouch97]

My sons is throwing code 20B3 and can't figure it out. Can you help?

[@TotallyNormal-]

that code refers to an actuator being overloaded.. does it happen all the time?

[@crouch97]

@@TotallyNormal- just started yesterday. And all the buttons are flashing red.

[@TotallyNormal-]

usually that error happens when something gets jammed up, or prevents the actuators from moving freely.. but if all the lights are red, might need to contact a dealer/DME to get things looked at..

[@jtflipsi]

How do you figure out the year on a permobil?

[@TotallyNormal-]

the date is usually on the serial number sticker.. its on the frame of the chair behind one of the motors (i forget which side atm) but ya have to look thru the wheel spokes on the M-series chairs, and around behind the motors on the F-series

[@wolandphotography]

is F3 much better than c500? cause in my country i can only buy c500 or c300...

[@TotallyNormal-]

if i had to choose between the C300 and the C500.. i'd take the C500 all day long! its a much more stable, and solid chair! FYI - the F3 is essentially a 'new' version of the C500 with similar weight, and build quality (but a lot more plastics for looks)

[@wolandphotography]

@@TotallyNormal- thank you... so not worth waiting for f3, cause i will be happy with c500 the same?

[@TotallyNormal-]

if i HAD to use a C500 as my daily chair, i'd be happy with it :^) i would want one with the 3G seating on it though! they made the C500 with 2G(plastic seat back) and 3G (metal seat back) seating options. i'd also want to make sure it has the R-Net electronics with a screen on the joystick (color or grayscale doesn't really matter) ALSO the C500 has 2 motor options.. the VS version has high speed motors. the standard one is a bit slow @ 5MPH

[@wolandphotography]

@@TotallyNormal- ok , mine will be in 2 weeks, they brought from US to Poland.. and i will check all yours sugestions:) thx bro

[@wolandphotography]

@@TotallyNormal- just mine arrived to the shop, c500 with r-net unit, joystick with screen, and only 3 km of ride, so like new. so i think worth it?:)

[@AJMic-sp2rx]

My DME service guy and agree they should send the prototype out to actual users to drive the wheels off and find the engineering fails ( like my 2014 power M had the entire front of battery box held on with a cotter pin ,day 2 it fell off when the cotter pin broke ,we put an L bracket on and it’s never come of again) my 20 & 21 have the same quirks there’s a plastic motor shroud on the L that half falls off and rattles got tired of smacking it back on so I VHB it , and the headrest tension screw backs itself off everyday and the headrest sounds like a rattle can going down the road , the change in Rnet that makes me crazy is it no longer stays in mode so if you elevate and have to move and go back you have to reselect elevate because it defaults to tilt .

[@GryBrn1]

🤙🏽

[@jasongooden917]

ICS?

[@TotallyNormal-]

the ICS on a permobil is basically the seating controller. i should have mentioned that in the video!

[@celticqaidbear]

Easy fix just remove sim card

[@bradleyhagy3253]

I'm sorry, as a person who has had to use a power wheelchair for forty years now I don't understand why you would dismantle a days old brand new wheelchair. This is not totally Normal, if the chair was broken I would be the first to say take it apart and fix it. This doesn't make sense. Good luck in keeping it under warranty. No disrespect, just confusion!

[@stormtrooper88]

lmao.. sorry... that comment? you MUST work for a wheelchair company? this f3 teardown is what this channel is about. sooo it is TOTALLY NORMAL! your comments and thoughts are COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT. good luck with warranty work. BWAHA HA HA HA HA! sorry for sounding like an asshat but WTF! lol you have got to be kicking carl or racoon mans brother! ha ha ha ha

[@marcoteves685]

It should be fine, as long as there's no bits leftover after reassembly 😮

[@pplusbthrust]

After 11 years in one of these confounded contraptions I respect your fortitude. You're correct, if it ain't broke don't mess with it. But if it needs improvement, go for it. 💡

[@TotallyNormal-]

i like to look through new equipment and see what potential failure points might be in the future, and familiarize myself with everything. i also consult with a few manufacturers on design - so its interesting to see how things are setup when a new product version comes to market. there's a lot of people that have these chairs, and like to see whats under the hood as well :^) nothing here voids any warranties - i can see how it might be confusing to watch someone pop the covers on a new chair and run amuck inside!

[@honkleretta1050]

It's like working on your house wiring. If you know what you are doing you can sometimes make improvements that stop a problem from happening later. BUT if you don't know what you are doing.....you can easily either make your eyes light up or burn down your home. And I like to see the workings in videos like this, so later when I have a problem as least I have an idea what I am in for without going in blind.

[@doveseye.4666]

Have you ever seen this video, wonder how to affix this? CareEon on KZbin?