REPAIR VLOG 694: battery replacement - Permobil F3 & M3! (LONG VIDEO)

[@matman9512]

I appreciate your help I just got the Permobil F3 delivered today and the guy who delivered it, said, run it down to the first yellow a couple of times to condition the batteries and then only charge it when it gets down towards the yellow I was told by somebody else to charge it every day so I think you’ve been around chairs enough and I appreciate you helping me out your videos are very much appreciated

[@TotallyNormal-]

Yea nooo don’t do that to brand new batteries! Lol just take it easy on them for the first 3-5 charging cycles.. don’t run them down a bunch.. and make sure it’s plugged in ALL night EVERY night. Daily use is fine..but just don’t go on any 5+ mile excursions for the first few charging cycles and then you’re good to go! Just remember- once the charger light turns green.. it’s still charging. On most chargers the green light indicates 80% charge and it’s ‘safe’ to use.. but best to give a minimum of 8-10 hours of charge time.

[@ProudAmerican10]

@@TotallyNormal- Thanks very much appreciated, i’m going to be making a heavy duty storage containers to fit the rails ok my f3 I’ll send you pictures when I get done I might take awhile hopefully not . I’m in super slow motion I have ppms. Thanks again

[@jimmellenberger8505]

​​@@TotallyNormal-yeah, that's what the tag on the base of my chair says, "Recharge all night-Every night." My chair was built last year in Mid-October, the prior owner put 355 miles before he passed away. I don't require the chair full-time, it's mostly for getting out and about. Your videos have been very helpful learning my chair (first-timer). I have the leg/foot rests coming, but will need to get and install the ram for leg lift, and associated wiring, so those are tasks for the future.

[@briankepp6343]

Thanks for putting a nice video together explaining how to do it all! I have done it numerous times on my old M3 and my new F5. I was watching and thought I caught you missing something, but you came back around to cover the point I thought you were going to miss. Well done! And the so called pros, (Numotion) cross threaded the bolts going into my seat. So he had to run to Ace to get longer bolts and a nut to fix it. At least he was man enough to fix it and not just leave them cross threaded. In my new F5 I changed over to lithium so Numotion will never have to try to give me their crap replacement batteries that barely make it a year.

[@Frank-xm1sx]

Thanks man I appreciate it. Your streams are always number one with me. Thanks again.

[@dnvrwheelz]

Wow, that looks so complicated compared to replacing batteries on my 2017 Invacare Storm Torque 3! I had a new 2023 Permobil M3 coming (covered by insurance), and I canceled at the last minute, after trying it out. It just felt wrong (too many functions) and not compatible with my Superarm Lift. So I bought Storm Torque 3 parts on eBay instead, to keep going (not covered by insurance, of course). Anyway, it's videos like yours that allow us to do our own maintenance. Thank you! Awesome detail! It's super fun to watch you and learn! Your EZ-Lock intuition was a great example of what we can learn.

[@josephwoolie7352]

The holes you pointed out are locator holes for both EZ lock and Q Straint docking pins. Although both are very different Permobil decided to do this because their own engineers found the center of gravity and the best place to put the holes. Both companies put their large holes in that exact spacing. You still have to drill two holes in the frame for the smaller bolts on both versions. The stop is on every q straint fitting but optional on ez lock, so if you have it, two more holes must be drilled through the aluminum guard under the tilt motor and belt. The four center holes I assume are to clearance the pin itself. That's what I use them for. It's not fun to drill that big hole through 3/8" steel so I cut that square out with a grinder. My favorite thing about these chairs is when people finally notice the frame is a single piece of 3/8", bent into shape. No welds. Nice videos!

[@shafman6305]

I just got a new F3 to replace my older F3. The mobility place installed the EZ-Lock bracket by mistake. I have the Q'straint QLK-150. The mobility place is ordering the Q'straint bracket. I hope there aren't any issues since it sounds like there are holes that have to be drilled into the chair. Right now, I can't drive from my new chair since the docking bolt is about 1.5" off from the old chair.

[@TotallyNormal-]

whoops!! depending on the model some new holes may have to be drilled.. BUT luckily theres a LOT of metal to work with before the structural integrity is compromised! they'll need to make sure if the new holes are really close to the old ones that the docking bracket is SOLIDLY attached

[@slick_slicers]

I like your wooden handled gentleman knife, but I love this! I’m a real sucker for mother of pearl, I’m always keen on Japanese made knives, and especially back locks. I would. Love to carry one of these as my edc.

[@hamzauzan3338]

Excellent 👌

[@charlieburrows0827]

Just learned something new cool

[@vishnuheerah3546]

Hello, I am a C7 quadriplegic in a M3 Permobil wheelchair and I wanted to ask you a question. I bought this m3 off of Kijiji for $1000 But when I try to use it, I can’t go the max speed of 10.4 km/h. It only goes 7.3 km/h, also the green lights for the battery life indicator starts decreasing five minutes into driving the wheelchair after a full charge. I have a feeling it’s the batteries that are bad but I don’t see why it affects the top speed. Can you please confirm or deny if it’s the battery or not? thank you. Also, if you were wondering, yes, all of the settings on the joystick are set to the highest speed.

[@rogertyler3237]

I Got Me 2 Of Those Husky Stubby ToolSets. & They Sure Do Come In Handy When I Need Them.

[@bradpennington4778]

Do you know if Medicare is approving and paying for seat elevators for the F3 chair? Good video.

[@abeljeffcoat9797]

To my understanding, it is now covered.

[@starleencooley7773]

31:26 could the connect module not having the foam block and Velcro tape be causing some of the rattling?

[@TotallyNormal-]

i ended up removing the connect module.. the noise has gotten a bit worse though..but im determined to find it!

[@mara8929]

Can we use lithium ion battery instead of gel battery 12v 35 ah for permobile F5 VS Corpus? And what are complications if we do so? Do you recommend this? Pls do a vdo on this.

[@TotallyNormal-]

the F5 VS is supposed to come with the 70-80Ah group 24 batteries.. the issue right now, is the chair's suspension is setup for all that weight in the base. LFP batteries can weigh significantly less.. so may effect stability a bit. also the battery gauge wont work correctly.. but many LFP battery packs have a bluetooth BMS and ya can monitor battery with phone though.. PROPER LFP batteries with the necessary safety features will cost around $900-1600 ish for a setup. you'll also want to make sure that the pack can handle outputting a sustained 120 amps

[@mara8929]

My F5 VS battery capacity is 2x73ah, can we go for high capacity with same dimensions (with out disturbing size of battery cabin if available)

[@briankepp6343]

I put lithium in my new F5 VS. I only found one set of direct drop in replacement 12 volt battery as most are to large to fit. Then you need a new charger and battery monitor. It's not a real hard swap, but a little involved a a little bit of an investment. But in my opinion, well worth it! I doubled my range and the batteries will out live my chair. In the winter when I'm not driving around much, I only have to charge about once a week. And yes, the batteries are half the weight of the lead acid ones. But I haven't noticed any issues in stability or ride. I need to put together a video on everything I used and how to do it.

[@TotallyNormal-]

i was thinking of your chair right after i replied! lol so the suspension etc is working as its supposed to? awesome! someone at permobil mentioned the weight reduction as a reason they haven't been perusing Li packs.. good to know it doesnt effect the stability!

[@RobertCaplinger-pe2nz]

@@mara8929 armrest on my permobile f3 plastic around armrest are cracked and in bad shape, i need to replace possibly with smaller if possible to give me a little more space for door ways

[@pixelcontrollers]

pulling hair out after attempting a battery swap in a 2018 F3. The new batteries are Group 24, 8.3" in height, about .4" taller than the specs I see for the Permobil Group 24s. The batteries I took out were Group 34. The battery tray slides part way in (snug fit) but there are 4 bolt heads in the chassis bottom plate and the tray won't clear them. I've been trying to tell by looking at videos if other chairs have these bolt heads sticking up through the chassis bottom plate into the tray space. My question is, should the battery tray be sliding on a flat surfaxe or is it normal for there to be protruding bolt heads that the tray has to go on top of. It might be handy if Permobil spec'd ,aximum allowable battery dimensions, there seems to be a lot of variation among Group 24 batteries.

[@TotallyNormal-]

sounds like your chair has an EZ lock bolted to the bottom of it.. thats the only reason bolts would be coming up thru the bottom of the chair. in that case, GRP 34's might be the only thing that will fit if you need the EZ lock for vehicle use

[@pixelcontrollers]

That’s what I was hoping to hear. I don’t need the easy lock. So, I should be able to remove whatever those bolts are attaching and it should be hopefully good to go. Thank you for the excellent video and the prompt response.

[@josephmirigliano8728]

Awesome ❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@AdkGimp_9229]

What did you mean when you said I might have to balance the batteries? Like equalize the charge in each one before you put them in? So the voltage is the same on each one? Asking because I have to change the batteries in my M3. Thanks

[@calebthomas5411]

I just got a quantum edge 3 i notice that they added the sticker to be able to tie it down in the van whatever you call it when I first saw it I thought they definitely watch your videos 😂 so thankyou! If it wasn’t for you these companies wouldn’t even try to improve. Lol I will say permobil look so much cleaner.

[@TotallyNormal-]

my insurance company said they weren't even aware that quantums were being shipped without the occupied transport package! the 9 states they operate in, now require ALL chairs to be delivered with it! i'm calling it a win! :^)

[@TheWayItIs.]

Are the two beveled holes in the front of the battery tray tray on M3 for EZ Lock mounting?

[@TotallyNormal-]

i think so..? cant figure any other reason they'd be there.. the silver parts are plugs, and the hole in bottom of frame is smaller than the top.. presumably so the mounting hardware doesnt interfere with the battery tray like it did on the older versions

[@shayshayw4907]

What type of batteries would I need for a amysystems alltrack m3 power wheelchair? My wheelchair charger is saying that the chair is full. As soon as l start driving my wheelchair battery indicator flashes one red bar and have to put it back on the charger to charge more. I would really appreciate it if you can help. Thanks Channa

[@TotallyNormal-]

Sounds like it might be time for new batteries! MK power is the standard brand that works well in pretty much any power chair :^)

[@josephwoolie7352]

@shayshayw4907 I'm sure by now you've dealt with it, but I'm a dme specialist and I've learned the hard way that mk gels are the only way to fly with Amy Systems chairs. All cheaper ones and especially AGM go bad quickly and the software in the chair doesn't read the voltage properly. End result is customers constantly overcharging and ruining the batteries. I've tried everything else (because insurance allowables are lower than my cost on gels) but resigned myself to just eating the loss. It's cheaper than multiple warranty trips.

[@KristinMyers-qg3mj]

SUPER helpful! After getting everything back together, F3 working great, but I'm getting an "omni input config error 8146". Can't find what this is or what to do about it. Thoughts?

[@TotallyNormal-]

double check all your cables and wiring.. are ya using a head array, or micro-compact joystick etc..?

[@joshwalton1898]

What website should I buy the new batteries from? I have been wondering why they still use led acid and not lithium ion batteries for power chairs. I would like to convert my f3 to lithium ion if it is possible.

[@TotallyNormal-]

buildmywheelchair.com seems to be competitive with their wheelchair batteries.. battery prices do fluctuate a lot though in general... its like theyre tied to the stock market or something! lol but that company is based in texas and very much support right to repair!

[@ProudAmerican10]

I got one major question on an F3 the mechanic told me to charge the battery when it goes down towards the last yellow and power Mobile and where I bought it says charge it every day no matter how far you drive it it doesn’t seem correct but if you know the answer and could let me know I’d appreciate it

[@TotallyNormal-]

lead acid batteries need to be charged EVERY time they are used. if the chair is used that day, plug it in overnight :^) if ya wait several days for the batteries to get super low before charging them, the service life of the batteries will be dramatically shorter.. (YEARS shorter)

[@ProudAmerican10]

@@TotallyNormal- Should I still run them down just the first couple of times to power cycle them just a little bit or just plug it in every night because I realistically don’t go that far at all sometimes a mile sometimes less sometimes 2 miles sometimes a half a mile sometimes 20 feet thanks for your help I appreciate it I just don’t wanna screw it up can’t afford to get another one

[@TotallyNormal-]

a couple miles is fine.. you just don't want to run them REALLY low for the first little bit is all. "exercising' new batteries by deeply discharging them and charging back up, causes a lot of issues with BRAND NEW batteries. charging batteries is a chemical reaction that takes time, and ya want to go easy on them for the 'break in' process. it takes a few cycles for everything to 'wake up' inside a new battery and its plates during charging. deeply discharging them even once when BRAND NEW can greatly reduce their service life and overall capacity. short version: stay between about 75% and 100% charge for the first 3-5 days, and make SURE to plug the chair in every night, ALL night regardless of what the lights on the charger or chair indicate. (ideally the first 14 days/charge cycles is best, but 3-5 days is enough to get ya going, and keep things happy)

[@brad7979]

Hi Dan recently got a m3 Permobil chair and one has 10 deg active reach do you know how I can increase to 20 deg tilt I know has nothing to do with this video but I remember you have an m3 and just wondered if you have found out how to increase the angle or will I have to get it added and pay thousands of dollars for it

[@TotallyNormal-]

there are some mechanical adjustments that need to happen to make it work, ya also 'technically' need the dual-power leg rests instead of the standard power ones..

[@brad7979]

Thanks for the reply I will have to look into what type of leg rests I have thanks again I thought you would have the information to help keep up the great videos they are very helpful cheers 👍

[@brad7979]

@@TotallyNormal- hi Dan checked it out only got the in and out leg rests . Thanks again 😊

[@TotallyNormal-]

adding the 20 degrees of anterior tilt is SUPER expensive.. but its a separate billable insurance code.. so that means medicare sets the prices on things for the entire industry.. kinda sucks when the chairs are mostly capable of it already :^/

[@brad7979]

@@TotallyNormal-yes I found out how much it would cost I’m in Australia and asked the local Permobil dealer and the price was $16,000 so I might think about moving the motor or something. Thanks again

[@georgebutcher6320]

Old Battery Cases were made of different materials which were said that if placed on floor thee battery would ground and discharge.

[@davidguillory4311]

I'm a little late watching this video, but I do still watch every video you post. And I just replied both battery early this month, and I haven't went for a ride... I just stay home watching videos on KZbin. I hope you been doing fine since the last time we text. And I love watching your video about wheelchair specially the one you got in this video. And I have one question... how do I adjust the back of the bracket that you see that lowers down with your seat in the back? because mine's up a little bit higher than the one I'm seeing on your video.

[@TotallyNormal-]

do ya have a permobil, with the stock backrest setup?

[@HeartyWorksDB]

@HeartyWorksDB 0초 전 I need a way of m1. Could you teach me how to separate it's cover? Is m1 the same as m3? I want to check what is my battery

[@TotallyNormal-]

Click the repair resources website link in the video description- you’ll find Permobil service manuals there

[@krazykrisi]

Are Vision batteries ok to use on the M5?

[@TotallyNormal-]

I’ve had varying luck with them.. sooo maybe? Hah

[@krazykrisi]

@@TotallyNormal- they don’t seem to be any better than my permobil batteries that they replaced that were 4 years old. So that’s lovely

[@TotallyNormal-]

4 years is a pretty decent service life for batteries on a stock setup!

[@krazykrisi]

@@TotallyNormal- yeah I usually can get them to last that long, not sure how because I put a lot of miles on lol charging habits I suppose. I’m currently fighting with Numotion about my new “custom” chair that was not ordered to my measurements and they keep telling me there’s no way to adjust it.

[@TotallyNormal-]

if the chair came via insurance - id call the insurance company right away! if the chair that was delivered is NOT what was on the order forms, they hold the power to force a return or otherwise get things sorted out

[@rogertyler3237]

I'm Looking For A Sholder Sleve For A Permobile M300

[@basook6116]

bro, where is one battery goes?? group 34....

[@bob5214]

Dan, do you know max current usb connect module can drive. I have Ease cushion I would like to plug in. It needs 3amp which is probably to much. Bob

[@TotallyNormal-]

about 1 amp reliably.. at 1.5 amps they drop down to about 4.75 volts - any more and it cuts out

[@rogertyler3237]

I Tighten Mine Just Snug.

[@LMT069]

Shorter swing arms on an f3/f5.... hmmmmm?

[@TotallyNormal-]

LONGER on F series chairs :^)

[@LMT069]

@@TotallyNormal- no, I wonder what m3 swing arms would be like on an f3... no big booty in the back.

[@TotallyNormal-]

OH i gotya.. well i can tell ya with their current size, the rear castor wheels sometimes touch the back cover :^)

[@LMT069]

@@TotallyNormal- bummer

[@homersway]

Hi Dan, my name is Bill and Iive in the great province of Ontario, and I am looking for the led light package for my 2023 f3 corpus, the price for it here is 2200.00 and I'm thinking I might be able to find a used set. Your the reason I wanted a permobil, I've watched a lot of your videos and you know your shit about the permobil chairs.......Bill

[@TotallyNormal-]

its kinda hard to find the light kits for sale used.. especially the newer chairs, since they have 'animated' lights on the back.. it is possible to wire up your own lights - though it technically voids the warranty connecting things to the chair's electronics :^/

[@homersway]

Ok, thanks Dan@@TotallyNormal-

[@angieworley5486]

Can you switch things over for wheelchair as far as agm to lithium ion? Other than the batteries and chargers what’s different? I’m asking because I tried and it would go about 30 yards and stop! Have to take the batteries and disconnect then reconnect them and it will move again!

[@TotallyNormal-]

one of the main things to remember when setting up a Li pack for a chair is ensuring it can handle the power requirements! it sounds like your setup may be triggering overcurrent protection. you can easily see 120-150 amp spikes when starting from a stop, or in other driving conditions. many of the cheap imported packs aren't rated correctly, and can't actually provide the amount of power listed in the documentation. also on R-net powered chairs the battery gauge on the joystick wont necessarily function correctly (not a huge issue usually) basically just make sure the cells, and the BMS can handle spikes of 150 amps, and sustained draw of 80~ish amps

[@angieworley5486]

@@TotallyNormal- ok I’ll have to check that out. Thanks for the input! Have you changed any over to lithium? If so which brand did you go with? And does it tell in the specs if they will draw 80 + amps?