The PROBLEM With The Batman Family

[@TheReZisTLust]

Imagine having your child killed by Harley, as she bombs a convenient store and than Batman shows up with her... I'd off myself ngl.

[@gringles]

Reminds me of that one father having a mental breakdown because the Joker shot his little girl in the face and he can’t cope with the Government/Batman not executing him or letting him get revenge. I imagine there are a lot of people like that father in Gotham.

[@newmobils8294]

​@@gringles Killing in comics is meaningless no matter what they do they always comeback and if you killed them it's worse because in their revival either they be a part of a massive dangerous event gonna happen to the hero or even the world or the Villain himself do the massive dangerous event to the hero for revenge or showing off like what did Joker in the Scott Snyder run in the arc Endgame when he was thought to be dead and Batman left him to death.

[@gringles]

@@newmobils8294 That rule doesn’t hold true at all for “comics”, it’s a thing that mainstream companies do to drive interest, knowing that they plan to capitalize on the return story. Broadly speaking about comics, no, villains do not always revive and go on to plot the end of the world. Besides, who said that they have to die? The Flash could steal all of The Jokers speed and make him completely incapable of doing anything but stand in place like a statue, as he has been shown to do. Any number of geniuses on the good guys side could create a prison that Joker couldn’t escape from, but just like the revival thing, the writers won’t do it because they want the characters in circulation.

[@newmobils8294]

@@gringles It does hold from the dawn of superhero comics and even if they did imprison them in the ways you mentioned it's still gonna be like the death they'll always end up freed somehow by a powerful evil person or by accident in a massive event it's not going to change anything also I should've clarified this which is yeah villain don't ALWAYS comeback with a huge dangerous event but they usually do which isn't worth the risk. And yeah companies and writers won't make them permanent dead so what!!? That's the point of what I said! Even though the reasons you mentioned aren't completely right like writers won't do it because they want the characters in a circulation but actually it's because killing iconic villains and try to replace them by other villains is hard and not just that but replacing dead villains every time by another villain and maintain good quality in writing every new villain is very impractical so my idea is rather than ignoring these outverseal issues is to address it in the comics when heroes initially kill who deserves to die but they got revived every time and it's usually come with bad consequences till heroes start to realize that killing is meaningless and they need to adapt to a world where death as punishment for evil is ineffective which will be a very interesting concept and unique that'll introduce very interesting morality in superhero comics.

[@gringles]

@@newmobils8294 “It does hold from the dawn of superhero comics” -You shifted from the broad “comics” to saying “superhero comics” but failed to comprehend that I addressed this in my reply. “and even if they did imprison them in the ways you mentioned it's still gonna be like the death they'll always end up freed” -Again, I addressed this point. It seems like you just want to get angry at someone on the Internet because you’re more or less arguing with your thoughts and not with my comments. “I should've clarified this which is yeah villain don't ALWAYS comeback with a huge dangerous event but they usually do which isn't worth the risk.” -You didn’t have to clarify it, you just had to understand what I was saying. I said that broadly speaking in c-o-m-i-c-s, this doesn’t occur. “And yeah companies and writers won't make them permanent dead so what!!? That's the point of what I said! Even though the reasons you mentioned aren't completely right like writers won't do it because they want the characters in a circulation but actually it's because killing iconic villains and try replace them by other villain and not just that but replacing dead villains every time by another villain and maintain good quality in writing every villain is very impractical so my idea is rather than ignoring these outverseal issues is to addressed in the comics when heroes initially kill who deserves to die but they got revived every time and it's usually come with bad consequences till heroes start to realize that killing is meaningless and they need to adapt to a world where death as punishment for evil is ineffective which will a very interesting concept and unique that'll introduce very interesting morality in superhero comics.” -Marvel and DC want the characters in circulation, the writers are contracted for a job. You’re not even trying to have a conversation here, my comment was in line with yours. I stated the obvious about comics as a medium not being latched to a rule about not killing their villains. Plenty of comics outside of caped adventures from the Big Two companies don’t have this problem. You’re even restating points that I made while misconstruing my points as your own…because I wasn’t arguing with you, I was expanding on your comment. You came out of the gate with “killing in comics is meaningless”, which had nothing at all to do with what I or the original comment were talking about.

[@bemiatto67]

Harley has no business being part of the Batfam 💀 I don't mind her wanting to become a better person, but let her be a hero in her own crazy anti-hero way. I'm glad the Harley Quinn show stopped having her part of the Batfam at the end of S4

[@altalia07]

FRFR

[@Bman32x]

I couldn’t watch that show any more after season 2. It just makes me wish there was a Batman show with that sense of humor.

[@kaine8911]

She isn't apart of the batfam, she's just in the teaser image for batman comics

[@ViIgax]

Don’t you see? It’s an absolute stroke of genius, turning a psychopath, who danced through the night setting the world alight alongside the Joker, into Gotham's very own sweetheart. What a masterful display of narrative gymnastics, leaping from a character drenched in the blood of the innocent to a shimmering beacon of virtue. We're practically at the edge of our seats, wondering, "Will she save a kitten next, or help an old lady cross the street?" And let's not forget the delightful way her past transgressions, those whimsical killing sprees, are now just adorable oopsies in her quirky journey. It's not every day you see such a bold disregard for character consistency, transforming classic villainy into the depth of a kiddie pool. How avant-garde, DC.

[@davfree9732]

They should have spun her off more in the way they did Azeal. Azeal wanted to be better than he was during AzBat's that laid him low, but Harley just went LOL so random and never addressed her core issue over a long form arc. I know some powers that be want her to cleave herself off from the joker... But aside from a hate boner she's never addressed her part in joining him, or what she did with him. It's like she washed her hands of it all and moved on, leaving behind the feelings of guilt and shame... Because apparently women in media aren't supposed to feel that, but in Harley we have a woman with a Psyc PhD who is uniquely qualified to assess her state of mind that she is likely afraid to look into for fear of what she might find. The only time she was compelling was when she tried to stop Jokers Daughter and Punchline from making the same mistakes she did... and in Injustice where the heroes lowered themselves, and met Harley trying to get on the rise. Harley's mainstream problem is that she has a long way to go to repent and balance her ledger... But the powers that be won't even let her admit she needs to do just that.

[@yarc9]

Young justice treated Cassandra Cain better than what the fuck that bird of prey did to her character their tv show are better than their movies

[@Bman32x]

Young Justice is the best show since Justice League unlimited. The episode about Rocket’s son with special needs had me in tears.

[@derekpayneszubliminals7723]

Birds of Prey movie's Cassandra Cain is just a poor man's Russel from Deadpool 2.

[@thewatchman13]

@@derekpayneszubliminals7723They not only screwed up Cassandra, they also screwed up Roman Sionis.

[@derekpayneszubliminals7723]

@@thewatchman13 That too.

[@N3wman2992]

@@derekpayneszubliminals7723 Margot Robbie said that they green lit the r-rated birds of prey after deadpool was a success, they probably just wanted to replicate the success but fell flat on the ass.

[@crackhead6469]

In the Arkhamverse Nightwing lost his girl to Eminem, lost to Harley, got captured by penguin, got captured by penguin again, had story content cut from him in city, and probably origins. They just keep dicking him down Jesus like why.

[@NoahKayembe-td8yk]

He got done so dirty 🤦‍♂️

[@bemiatto67]

Nightwing's only role in this stuff is to get murked to make Batman look good

[@windghost2]

Wait Dick had story content for him in City and it got cut!?🤬 That’s crazy!

[@crackhead6469]

@@windghost2 sort of cut. From what I’ve heard the reason the Nightwing dlc comes with the Wayne manor map is because there was going to be a dlc where Nightwing defended the manor from tyger guards. I have also heard Tim was supposed to help but I don’t have a source and have no idea if it’s true or not.

[@crackhead6469]

He’s also credited with having a voice actor in the credits but he just reuses lines from Robin so it looks like there was some sort of planned role.

[@joeker5208]

I have issues with DCAU’s Bat-Family. 1. We got Tim in name only, as the character was pretty much Jason Todd-Lite 2. Batgirl was kinda just “there” for the most part. Didn’t ever really get enough of her own time in the spotlight. By the time of TNBA, she’s pretty much just a sidekick 3. This Dick Grayson is quite underbaked. He never got the time or chance to evolve out of Bruce’s shadow. Even when he was Nightwing, he was still operating in Bruce’s city, and teamed up with him all the time. And not to mention the fact that he never got over his Daddy issues

[@gfilmer7150]

DCAU Bat-Family is extremely flawed in terms of portrayals and execution. They make Batman a brute which justifies Dick's distain for him only for the characters to call him an attention seeking teenager. Barbara despite being a fan favorite of Bruce Timm's is underdeveloped AF. And of course Tim Drake (and even Terry McGinnis) is just Jason Todd. I honestly think the show should've used Jason. I know The Jason Hate and TV censors were the main factors as to why he wasn't but let's be, they basically did Jim Starlin's Death In The Family with Return of The Joker.

[@joeker5208]

@@gfilmer7150 yes and no. The real reason as to why they didn’t use Jason Todd, was mostly due to Paul Dini not liking the character, and the DCAU team wanting to use the more modern versions of characters. Which is why Batman was based off a lot of Denny O’Neil’s stories, why Superman was supposed to have a mullet, and why Tim, Wally, and Kyle were used instead of more iconic versions of the characters. But I pretty much agree with everything you said but the Batman thing. The character himself is done very well throughout the universe. And with TNBA, they start an arc of him being more cold and brutal, only for him to soften up with the debut of a new Robin, Superman, and the Justice League. Pretty sure they were taking inspiration from Batman Year Three and A Lonely Place of dying with that one. As something extremely similar was done after the Death of Jason Todd

[@gfilmer7150]

@@joeker5208 Paul Dini doesn't like Jason? That's another Batman character I love that he doesn't like (the first one being Bane). Anyway, I agree, a lot of Batman The Animated Series was most definitely inspired by The Bronze Age of Batman. It's very telling with the inclusion of characters of like Ra's Al Ghul, Manbat, Killer Croc etc etc. But also Batman being a brute is in reference to Old Wounds where Dick was uncomfortable with how Batman attacked that one dude in front of his kid.

[@joeker5208]

@@gfilmer7150 I figured you were most likely talking about Old Wounds. But that episode (and other instances in TNBA where Batman acts more brutal than in any other show) definitely seems inspired off of Year 3 and A Lonely Place of Dying, since those books had the whole; “Robin/Dick thinks Bruce is being to rough on criminals and is disgusting by it”

[@WompaStompaCyn]

I think the bigger problem than size is they're all too similar. We don't need 20 characters that all know each other, all have similar skills, all have a similar aesthetic, all fight the same kind of crime in the same kind of way, and all have the same aspirations and moral code. That's why I liked Barbara more as Oracle than I ever lied her as Batgirl. It made her different.

[@gringles]

I’ve never cared for Babs as Batgirl, Oracle was an upgrade to me.

[@rossjones8656]

How true. It takes forever for some of the differences to show up but it's never played up.

[@darksideofevil13]

Yeah this is why I never really cared for their individual stories. But also this is why the only one I actually followed for a time was Red Hood. Him killing was a simple change, but it made a world of difference. I also just liked his costume.

[@silloweet]

Bat family should be the first 3 Robins, maybe sometimes 4, and Barbara. Everyone else is boring gutter trash

[@matdancer3669]

They should give Damian lazurus magic.

[@xanderg.1070]

That’s why I love the Bat Family Adventures webtoon comic, because it gives the batfamily more depth to the Batfam, and not just Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Barbara, Jason, Tim, and Damian, but Cassandra, Stephanie, Duke, Kate, Helena, and Luke and get us to care about them in that webcomic than the actual comics itself.

[@AnotherRandomUserName100]

Wayne Family Adventures, and yeah it's so good

[@altalia07]

💕💕

[@jaylenjayden9305]

Same

[@MrSafior]

Unfortuantly this webcomics was ruined once they decide to make Tim/Bernard official.

[@Vn-pf5lt]

​@@MrSafior How is it wrong to follow the canon lmao

[@Jetblast01]

Biggest problem with the bat family? There's way too many of them yet you omit often the best member... Alfred.

[@doopdoopdopdop7424]

Agreed. It’s so swollen and yet Alfred is the slept on guy.

[@someoneelse1441]

I have some bad news for you.

[@skinnyrat4277]

@@someoneelse1441 maybe that is proving their point ? LMAO I just pretend that hes still there when I read T -T

[@shadowone01x99]

The same Alfred that had his own live action tv series?

[@Ytomany]

There’s too many a lot are redundant, and alot come from specific story events where their character had a tie to that, the event got solved so there just is no point to their character anymore, or like Tim, and Barbra Gordon, too normal to go anywhere as characters so they either sit in limbo or are rebooted every 10 seconds like Barbra.

[@gfilmer7150]

They keep retreading Jason Todd's stuff because of the impact of the Under The Red Hood movie which while great, people have taken the wrong ideas from it. Instead of seeing Jason as a broken, tragic, complicated, and nuanced character, people view him as the classic outlaw hero, someone who kills but is undoubtedly the good guy. I think he should be retired because Jason isn't built for "the game" that Batman calls home. With Tim Drake, I feel DC should move him out of Gotham like Dick Grayson and have him go to another city and has his own cast of villains. He can be on his own with new side characters, and then also bring his villains like Hadrian Armstrong (General/Anarky II) to wherever he sets up shop, preferably somewhere far from Gotham. The only real problem with Dick is that yeah, he's been getting the shaft because people treat him as nothing more than worldbuilding and treat him as just another Gotham based crime fighter. There's also the fact that Deathstroke, his archnemesis (tied with Blockbuster) keeps getting paired with Batman when Slade doesn't mesh well with Bruce, not to mention Bruce already has a huge list of assassin villains that get neglected for Slade.

[@smallrug3469]

Couldn't agree more. We all love red hood conceptually but it's clear Jason's been in limbo ever since his return. Him and Harley have absolutely no business being in the batfamily, considering they, yknow, fucking murder people. And Tim and Dick get absolutely shafted for the sake of plot convenience. They also have the potential to be great but DC needs to sell their billionth batman v joker storyline so they get reduced to one-note supporting characters

[@gfilmer7150]

@@smallrug3469 And it's like, Dick has his own city and cast so if DC don't want him interfering with a Batman story, then do something with him in Bludhaven. He has his own villains so they don't need to have him in Gotham fighting Batman villains. And with Tim Drake, they could do the same thing with him, send him off which could lead to a revival of guys like Hadrian or King Snake. But the thing is, having them be with Batman in team up sells more in the short term.

[@dc7981]

I can’t stand DC trying to force some rivalry between Batman and Slade. Slade shouldn’t give a crap about Batman and his role could be replaced by bane aka Batman’s actual physical rival

[@gfilmer7150]

@@dc7981 Bane, Lady Shiva, David Cain, Deadshot, KGBeast, Hell even Killer Croc would make more sense.

[@shaunjimbangan1166]

I really don't like the direction New 52 and after took Red Hood. Edit: I don't know if this take is divisive or not but I kinda wish Bruce stayed dead after killing Darkside and Tim took up the mantel as the next Batman. Dick went threw a lot of character growth to become his own hero, having his own city to protect, his own rogues gallery and even leading his own team of heros. Having him become the new batman kinda undoes all of that. Tim has also just shown to a better fit as batman than Dick.

[@bemiatto67]

If Young Justice got a spin off show strictly being about the Batfam, that'd be goated

[@-Theo-]

Yes! Bonus points if it includes other comic relationships I would do anything for a YJ spin-off show in which Tim and Conner are inseparable like they’re supposed to be. The show really disappointed me by omitting that friendship completely

[@Comperative-e8b]

​@@-Theo-But we really need the ultimate friendship:Jason and Bizarro.

[@painvillegaming4119]

@@Comperative-e8byes these 2 are adorable

[@marveler8994]

Its not an M enterprises video if we dont get a montage of dc fucking up nightwing

[@kingkartic4645]

😂

[@bemiatto67]

He's such a damsel in those movies lol

[@Bman32x]

Could easily be on the 3rd or 4th Nightwing movie too.

[@kaine8911]

He's doing well rn in comics and will probably get a movie in the new DCU movies

[@MEnterprises01]

💀

[@broccoo]

James Gunn saying “this is Batman’s actual son” is so troubling though. It implies he doesn’t view the other bat-kids (or at bare minimum - the other Robins) as Bruce’s kids. When for all intents and purposes - they are. That’s the whole dynamic…

[@justaghostinthesea]

I think that's just poor wording. He probably meant "actual" as in "biological"

[@mikhaelgribkov4117]

I like Scott Snyder, but Jesus Christ, is his focus on Damian as real son gets under my skin.

[@pepita2437]

@@mikhaelgribkov4117 Snyder's Batman was the one who punched out Dick's tooth during the Court of Owls soryline?

[@notjimmy6486]

@@pepita2437 Yeah.

[@pepita2437]

I don't really like that Batman. ;P

[@caridadchang7895]

part of the reason adaptations shy away from actually working with the Batfamily, as other creators have pointed out, is that it gives them no choice but to make Batman as a character age. DC comics themselves are somewhat afraid of doing this even as they include more and more kids to this man's house but then they don't want to admit how old the character would be by now. An accurate adaptation of Batman, with the Batfamily as it is now, would be as a 40 something year old single father of 6 - 9 kids, most of which are adults with their own homes and partners and jobs/college. Somehow only else world stories have managed to do this.

[@BeansKneez]

on a related note, i recently realized that dick was included in detective comics as a wish fulfillment character for the kids reading along. for hollywood, bruce is the wish fulfillment character, and being a dad of six and counting isn't part of the fantasy

[@SecretMagician]

I hope Brave and the Bold will show this kind of Batman who's older and already has a longer tenure with the Bat-family to contrast with the Reevesverse Batman who's on Year 3 and will probably adopt Dick in The Batman II.

[@painvillegaming4119]

Bruce being 37 is fine just tweak the age where he adopted them

[@painvillegaming4119]

@@SecretMagicianyes please

[@caridadchang7895]

@painvillegaming4119 buddy I dont think an 18 year old adopted an 8 year old...

[@GamerSlyRatchet1]

This is why that No Man’s Land animated series being rejected TWICE makes me sad. It was going to be refreshing seeing a series starting with a veteran Batman, Nightwing, Oracle, Tim Drake Robin, Cassandra Cain Batgirl, and even Jason Todd as the starting line-up.

[@gfilmer7150]

No Man's Land series? My interest has been peaked.

[@ninjaboy4831]

@@gfilmer7150 Same. Leaving a comment in case anyone wants to elaborate

[@gfilmer7150]

@@ninjaboy4831 Because No Man’s Land is a story that’s constantly adapted but not to its full scale.

[@ninjaboy4831]

@@gfilmer7150 Right. But I meant this is the first I'm hearing about a rejected series for it

[@gfilmer7150]

@@ninjaboy4831 Same

[@fattimmy2829]

My biggest thing I hate in the DCAMU was the fact they did Nightwing so dirty, over and over and over again. Someone has a hate boner for Dick Grayson, as well as Jason and Tim while making that universe. Don't get me started on Titans. That is a disgrace.

[@gfilmer7150]

The biggest problem with Batman: Hush is how disconnected it was from the first three movies. Those films were the story of Bruce and Damian, and that was the heart of that trilogy. Now, instead of Hush, that forth movie could have upped the stakes in Bruce and Damian's relationship by incorporating Jason Todd and Tim Drake, especially with Tim being well loved by Bruce and Dick, which could have created a conflict with Damian. As for Jason, he and Tim could be independent agents fighting criminals around the world and Jason is captured by said criminals, which is why Tim comes back to Gotham. We also could get some Soul of The Dragon style flashbacks that expand the lore on Jason and Tim, with the finale being Dick, Tim, and Damian putting their issues aside and coming in clutch. Then Tim could be apart of the Superman-Raven team in Apokalips War, with Jason being with The Suicide Squad at Rikers.

[@stiglapoint5672]

Yeah they kinda rushed Under the Red Hood which sucked

[@rellrylio5567]

It’s not that they hate him it’s just that you don’t need a billion bay family members so some will get treated worse in the long run

[@painvillegaming4119]

@@rellrylio5567bro these character getting neglected like that is the worst They're just something charming about Bruce having a armada of kids

[@TevyaSmolka]

It still drives me crazy that Tim drake robin my boy keeps getting screwed for garbage stories which drives me mad but that’s just my opinion.

[@saralovesmusic.]

literally it’s so annoying 🤦‍♀️

[@TevyaSmolka]

@@saralovesmusic. indeed it's so annoying

[@truthspreader1996]

Hasn't he been turned Gay now?

[@XTooManyShowsX]

Classic middle child syndrome

[@-Theo-]

Don’t worry Tim bros our time will come eventually, surely a writer that cares about him will come along and give us something great, right? *Dies of copium*

[@Venzynt]

how is batman a grim, loner hero but then got the biggest and most lit squad ever 💀

[@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec]

He needs that 8 hour of sleep

[@doopdoopdopdop7424]

And because authors keep throwing new characters to leave their mark.

[@bottomtier3823]

Because that loner hero shit is old in the main story line, u stuck in the past

[@senittoaoflightning4404]

Funnily enough he isn't a loner hero. There are like three stories set (lasting a total of 5 years) before Dick joined in. And Babs arrived 3 years after that.

[@BrandonTBlackwell]

He was a loner at first and then became a Family Guy over the years.

[@Tabletopcloud20]

I never realized how similar Laura Kinney (X-23 or Wolverine) and Cassandra Cain were to each other in a way.

[@painvillegaming4119]

Oh yeah Now when can marvel and dc do a crossover and have the 2 overly grumpy dads and 2 deadly teenage girls team up

[@KonEl17]

Ty the Nightwing disrespect in animated movies needs to stop.

[@kap1618]

Speaking as someone whose favorite Robin is Tim and Dick, the new 52 made me hate Damien Wayne. It's hard to make media focusing on the Bat family because every writer is obsessed with blood ties.

[@Lauren007E]

It's tomasi who got obsessed with Damian... but he really doesn't fit the Robin title

[@dianahi2663]

​​​@@Lauren007E Tomasi did an amazing job with Damian, he gave him a character arc and build more his personality, relationships and lore. Damian is great to fit Robin, in the same unique way Dick, Tim, Jason and Steph were, every Robin has different atories, personalities and themes and that's alright. Damian could be blood related to Batman but he has found so much in common with Dick and Alfred than his own father, the "found family" is still presentend in a different way but it's prresented.

[@Lauren007E]

@dianahi2663 I know, I enjoyed that series. But I dislike him as Robin since he just doesn't fit. Maybe if Dick stayed Batman he would.. or if he did just join Jason since they had an interesting dynamic in teen Titan's. As he is though he doesn't suit Bruce. But I like the Batman and Robin series currently running, although its already retreading old ground with him

[@the_revanchistlegion]

10:48 This is a really good point, and I’d like to add on to it a bit further. I think some of these writers create artificial conflicts like this is so they can have an excuse to keep Batman’s relationship with the family from rising up too high. What I mean by that is, it’s been shown in many recent stories how close Bruce has gotten to characters such as Dick, Selina, & Damian (to name a small few) since Alfred’s death and how those relationships have affected him on a personal level and his growth as a character. You’d think that would be a good thing, but I reckon the writers are afraid of going too far against the “status quo” of Batman’s character and the way he is typically depicted and create division storylines, such as the most recent one, as a sort of balancing measure. Of course, I could be wrong, but that’s what it seems like to me and I’m not particularly a fan of it.

[@InReserveProductions]

My biggest issue with the James Gunn Batman thing is that he keeps using images of Dick Grayson as Batman. If the Bat Family does get adapted live action they better not do my boy Tim dirty, hell they better not do anyone dirty.

[@SlightlyPeeved]

100% agree!

[@Moonking_Is_Back]

How is one image that’s been said to not matter ‘keep using’ it

[@ДьулусСтручков-крутой]

Batman bruce wayne and nis only son damian wayne. That film.

[@jeremyfields9009]

Tim won’t exist in Gunn universe so be prepared to be disappointed

[@Moonking_Is_Back]

@@jeremyfields9009 proof?

[@montenegroafro4454]

“Arkham games really gave Tim that haircut looking like Eminem..” I cannot unsee that bruh 😂😂

[@ECKohns]

Tim Drake (Robin) is my favorite character and seeing him treated by DC as if he doesn’t exist makes me so depressed.

[@-Theo-]

Same (my favorites are Tim and Conner)

[@toxicsnails]

DC is gonna lose the copyright on Batman in like 10 yrs. They really need to establish the Bat Fam better to work around that. And justice for Tim Drake.

[@CursedShinobiClown]

They aren’t losing it lol, you can just make a movie about a guy in a batsuit now but that’s it

[@FriendlyBatDoom]

The problem is there are too many members. It should be only Batman, Alfred, Robins (Off on their own outside of current Robin), and possibly Cassandra Cain. Once you have all these members it in turn nerfs Batman they now have to validate their membership by nerfing Batman. Also with all these members who are mainly in Gotham, why is there still all this crime in Gotham? Learning from the walking Ivy League and Dojo in Batman means that you will be highly intelligent and a capable warrior. Massive city events like City Of Bane, Joker War, Fear State, and Gotham War all basically happened back to back with them which renders Batman moot at this point. What good impact is he having on the city now since the writing for him is 💩? Lastly, now all they seem to do mainly is bicker and fight amongst themselves. Let him be the loving fatherly figure to them for once as it's sorely missed from DCAU/JLU Batman. If Batman is so toxic Dick and Barbara Move permanently to Bludhaven but this time it's in Maine instead of a suburb of Gotham City. Bruce built the Batcomputor and is a genius polymathic inventor he doesn't need you.

[@HELLO_KORO]

Bludhavens wayyy too close to Gotham, like Nightwing has Batfamily crossovers every 2 months in something that's supposed to be a solo comic

[@manicpixiefangirl4189]

All this was exactly why I didn’t get into Batman comics for so long. All I would hear were fanboys going on and on about how Batman would TOTALLY run all over Superman in a fight, but somehow his can’t even get his shit together in his own city. Like sweeties, Metropolis ain’t having all these problems and you think you’re little ninja man is gonna walk away with an easy win? Get real.

[@Voltbolto]

​@@manicpixiefangirl4189change that possibly to definitley

[@silloweet]

@@manicpixiefangirl4189it’s for sales purposes

[@IDEK1110]

@@manicpixiefangirl4189It was interesting once, when Batman was still considered the underdog in the fight. But when it happens every single time, it stops being engaging and ends up being boring.

[@thingsstranger1458]

@7:15 is absolutely my most favorite Robin Scene i have ever witnessed in life.

[@KonEl17]

Tim gets no play since Damian, especially in comics.

[@jeremyfields9009]

Damian literally beats the crap out of Tim and takes his identity. lol

[@dianahi2663]

I mean both are getting dirty, Tim should actually started growing up as a character and stopped having 17 forever and being Robin and grow up to build his own apart identity instead of being Robin forever. Tim's path is crossing with Damian's path too so at the end both ended up being mistreated. Tim for not getting a proper recognition to grow and Damian for not getting a proper chance to experimentate the transition of being Robin and fighting crime with Batman.

[@kaine8911]

Honestly DC has screwed over Barbara Gordon a lot aswell, they keep treating her as a love interest for multiple robins instead of her own character. In arkham knight she's Tims girlfriend, in comics they made Jason have a crush on her and they kiss in the none canon 3 jokers book and in comics they just make her Nightwings girlfriend and nothing more. I feel like there needs to be a difference between The Batman Family and Vigilantes in Gotham, like we have the batfam the main group and then there's other vigilantes who operate in Gotham. The batfamily should be batman, his 4 sons, the 2 batgirls, Oracle and then if you want you can add catwomen. That makes 9, but only few of them should be in Gotham, others doing there own thing. Batman, Damien, Catwomen, Tim and Oracle are in Gotham. Nightwing, Red Hood and Batgirls doing there own shit

[@Magnet_Chaos]

Batwoman is the aunt of the Bat Family that we don't talk about.

[@kaine8911]

@@Magnet_Chaos Basically lol

[@negressprincess]

What about Duke, Helena, and Luke?

[@kaine8911]

@@negressprincess I don't really care for Duke or Batwing but they can be apart of the Gotham Vigilanties and not the batfamily. Helena isn't apart of the batfamily for years

[@maevem316]

Yeah, the fact that they've paired up Barbara with every bat dude except the literal child at this point makes me kind of insane. Free her

[@ryanworrell766]

Not to much on Duke. They really need to give him a solo he's got mad potential.

[@AndrewBrown-yf3hk]

I could see Duke being a secondary hero in another character's movie. Like how I would like to see a Nightwing and Batgirl movie. I think Duke has a huge amount of potential but I doubt a ton of people would go to see the movie with the current state of DC movies.

[@riymeep6708]

From the bit I’ve seen of him (plus the small wonders the webtoon has been doing for him) I actually really like him. I just wish he wasn’t always relegated to that one normal Batman sidekick but with powers. Him making more non-batfam related friends and getting his own chance to shine would probably work well. He is the one Gotham daytime superhero there’s gotta be good stories from that, and if not then they can move him out of Gotham for a while

[@TheUnseenPath]

To be fair, Red Hood would be a better choice over Damien because to the normie, a question of should Batman kill or not, would make for an interesting interpretation that they are not normally exposed to.

[@huntertezz]

I think they just wanted to skip ahead to Red Hood.

[@samuelgardner8550]

The Bruce/Barbara romance thing was created by Bruce Timm...who bragged saying "Yeah...we know its wrong! Thats why we did it" 🙄

[@MILDMONSTER1234]

Nah he’s covering his tracks cause he’s into it 😂

[@BeRzErKeR111]

​@@MILDMONSTER1234 ON GOD

[@redactedandredactedaccesor7290]

@@MILDMONSTER1234 He gives me pedo vibes.

[@juanddg4737]

But…he didn’t create the pairing, it was done before.

[@samuelgardner8550]

@@juanddg4737 Maybe so...but its the 1st time I'd seen it.

[@slackstarfish8133]

I’m actually so hyped for the brave and the bold. They just gotta nail the casting

[@ViIgax]

0:07 DC deserves nothing less than a standing ovation for this artistic revelation. It's akin to turning a venomous cobra into a vegan house pet, simply groundbreaking. What a monumental achievement to transform Harley Quinn, once the queen of chaos and anarchy, cavorting gleefully with the Joker in their bloody ballet, into Gotham’s candy-coated, morally sanitized darling. It's as if someone looked at a hurricane tearing through civilization and thought, "You know what? That could really use a makeover. Let’s give it a pastel rainbow and a puppy." Witnessing Harley's metamorphosis from a gleefully murderous psychopath to Gotham's quirky, bubblegum-chewing savior is like a narrative alchemy that would leave even the ancient philosophers awestruck. The sheer audacity to retcon her not-so-little homicidal tendencies into quirky footnotes on her resume? Pure, unparalleled brilliance. It’s like watching someone repaint the Mona Lisa with a wide, toothy grin and calling it "approachable art." But truly, let's erect monuments to the way DC has so masterfully glossed over the classic villainy that once defined Harley, flattening her into a poster child for redemption arcs so paper-thin they could double as origami supplies. It’s a visionary move, showing a deep understanding of character development by essentially hitting the reset button and shouting, "Do over!" with all the finesse of a toddler in a tiara tantrum. Indeed, we should all take a moment to bask in the glow of DC's narrative prowess, as they strip away layers of characteristics like so much unwanted wrapping paper, to reveal the "true" Harley Quinn: a beacon of light and giggles, armed with the moral fortitude of a saint and the battle scars of a slapstick comedian. Because, at the end of the day, who needs villains and antagonists, when you can have sparkles and merchandising? Here’s to progress, DC. You’ve really outdone yourselves.

[@smallrug3469]

This comment deserves its own audiobook. Beautifully put

[@bismergleow4031]

This comment is amazing

[@vividlantern8854]

Harley is such a goated character bro! I definitely don’t want to commit atrocities on her that will make Joker look like a hero!

[@subtlevariationsofblue6778]

Lmao this comment is gold

[@leonarddement3432]

New York in DC is where unwanted characters go to die.

[@allstardawn6062]

Yeah look at Fables 😂

[@smallrug3469]

Tbf that's just new york in real life too

[@subtlevariationsofblue6778]

The complete opposite of Marvel 😂

[@WannabeWryter]

I love the Batfamily, thier the most dysfunctional family in comics. I honestly don't get the dislike lost of fans have for them or why writer are so against using them. Batman was never really a loner for long. Most his iconic stories work with and without them. Batman works as a character Who lost his family and both creates a new one Of people who want to make sure no one else ever loses theirs. BatFam 101 is using your darkness to fight for the light. Ive frankly had enough "young bruce wayne learns to find his favorite gargoyle to brood on" I'd make an Encanto Tim Burton style movie or Series about the vigilante family who protects their home town. Adam's Family or the Monstars, the batfam gives heavy creepy but kind famiky vibes. Loud House for Superheroes, 1 hero 10 sidekicks, bat-a-rangs and flying kicks You can make Wayne Manor work as a Home for "Tramatized Teens" Or since I practically love the 4 robins a TMNT Style for the =Robins well (Nightwing leader in contorl, the wise guy/wild card is Red Hood, Tim Drake Brains of the Bunch, Count on Damian to through the 1st punch) Before anyone says that they're not that interesting, Every single member. Of the family has had their own solo series. Hell every Male Robin, has lead a Titans-like team. Nightwing Titans, Red Hood outlaws, Tim drake Young Justice, Damain Super Sons and The Batgirls/Birds of Prey is fun I'd love and Elseworld Story of them as Family of Vampire/Shadows.

[@amaristudent9456]

I'd watch the hell out of any of those pitches.

[@jelancritic3158]

I agree; I'm tired of the same old "edgy loner Ninja man broods on gargoyle and beats up criminals" Give me a dysfunctional vigilante vampire family

[@windghost2]

@@jelancritic3158I’d take a crazy family who loves each other and fights criminals over continuous brooding loner man.

[@Rengokuo4o6]

@@windghost2 honestly I'll take the broody man.

[@WannabeWryter]

@Rengokuo4o6 why, what does he do for you? That character feel boring

[@Dragon_Moth]

I think it would be nice if some of them just... Retired. Tim Drake is my favourite member of the batman family, but he has been without a use for more than a decade now. So, he could just retire. He has lived a good life, fought the good fight, he could still reappear but he has leaved his superhero life behind

[@jackielogan9104]

i loved his character in the Detective Comics run since the 2016 Rebirth launch. now I don't

[@WannabeWryter]

That's not fair

[@Frogman1212]

​@InevitableOption-ic2vxI'd rather they perma-kill to be honest. A superhero retiring is bound to look pathetic, weak, and disappointing. Ted Kord is in a similar spot to Drake. I think his death was easily the peak of the character. But modern comics are dead anyway.

[@Bman32x]

Better that than Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker what happens to Tim Drake.

[@the_well-known_stranger2275]

Just let him go to college

[@figment616]

Hearing James Gunn say Damien is his favorite makes me worried Tim gets cut off again 😭

[@Oblivion___]

It will probably be cut, because otherwise there would be too many characters and it is impossible to focus on everyone, to top it off Tim is extremely irrelevant in terms of story arcs. Dick is the first Robin. Jason is the Red Hood. Damian is the legitimate son. Tim is nobody, all the other Robins have extremely good stories to be told, except Tim.

[@kilogreengamingd1597]

To this day there is only ONE version of Cassandra in films young justice

[@aerickmon3350]

We do not speak of the live action as we shouldn’t

[@-Theo-]

As a huge Tim Drake fan I think that the best thing for his character would be to distance him from Gotham and let him be his own person away from the bats. I love the batfamily but they’ll never let Tim shine while they’re around him A Young Justice (Tim, Conner, Cassie and Bart) reunion under a different team name would be amazing to see ngl

[@omoefeasiemo3601]

sometimes as a comic book fan you have to accept that adaptations are adaptations they aren't and shouldn't be the end all be all we always have the comics but i do agree the bat family has gotten to damn BIG and the worst part is they keep adding on to it 😮‍💨😮‍💨

[@CavacantiFerreira]

Amazing video!👍👏 I just began my comic book collection and found Toon Haven. They have an incredible range of digital comics for every genre, including the hard to find ones. Lifetime updates too!😁

[@smallrug3469]

This is why you're one of my favorite channels. Consistent uploads, funny as fuck, and you bring attention to issues we've all lowkey had with dc for years and show people good content that they otherwise might not have known about. You never miss man, keep it up!

[@commonsense5199]

11:06 I like Duke Thomas. I enjoy We Are Robin. He has a dynamic with Cassandra in Batman and the Outsiders. Cassandra’ dynamic with Duke better compare her dynamite with Stephanie in the Cloonrads’ Batgirl comic. The comic wasn’t good. As Duke being the only Meta-Human. in the Bat family can lead story potentials. Including his former friends Riko and Dax, two former Robin also got powers(yeah Riko and Dax are Duke’s Jason Todd if that’s understandable.) Mr Bloom can be a personal villain for Batman and The Signal, cause Mr.Bloom is a Metahuman too. And The was a different Mr.Bloom that is childhood of Duke Thomas. I should mention that Duke Thomas’ first adaptation was into The BatWheel Pre-School Cartoon. He and Cassandra are Batman’s Sidekicks. And The BatWheel’s Versions of Duke and Cassandra’ costumes make me think about Damian Wayne and Barbara Gordon. I feel the BatWheel originally intended to be Damian and Barbara but changed them to Duke and Cassandra at the last minute. Harper Row she had good team with Batman, good friendship with Cassandra. Harper Row had a proper ending of her retiring as hero. But Harper Row to stop Punchline manipulation the media that influence Harper’s brother. I like Punchline for being a villain. In Young Justice cartoon Harper Row was Halo’s love interest who a victim of domestic abuse. And Gotham Knights Harper. I got a feeling that is the worst version of Harper Row. Jace Fox. *Jace Fox is Trash. 100% Trash* He is one most miserable character I experienced. Not just him, the Fox family is miserable. Tiffany was fine but ugh I do not like Jace Fox comic. It gets worst when you read the comic and find out what Lucius Fox has done.

[@Sjaddix]

I think Dukes Powers should be mystical. Mystic and Occult is better fit for the Bat Fam. Also light and shadow powers feel way more mystic then meta. I also like the Cass Cain & Duke Thomas relationship. They should date. Harper Row is cool as well. I think she and Duke have distinct niches at least. Jace Fox is absolutely a waste. I also think Red Hood would be well suited to move in a more mystical direction. Take some inspiration from Blade, Moon Knight and Ghost Rider. I got no use for Tim and Steph. Nightwing and Damian stay the course. I do like the idea of Batwing and Batwoman team up but the execution needs work.

[@commonsense5199]

@@Sjaddix Duke can’t date Cassandra. Duke is currently dating Isabella, another We are Robin teammate. Different from Isabella to Riko and Dax, she stay with Duke can help him out as Mission Control commander like Barbra Gordan as Oracle and Felicity from Arrow. I feel Duke’s Biological Father, Gnomon, would have connections with Ra’s Al Ghul as both of them are immortals. That would Example a few things. Heck, maybe Gnomon might’ve have connections with Vandal Savage. I mean ancient aliens or ancient does ties with occult and urban legends. Two examples. Blue Beetle and Dandadan I really wish they could use Tim and Steph more. Especially Tim. He one my favorite Robin yet he gets so little. Oh yeah Luke Fox and Kate Kane team up in current Outsiders Comic by Jackson Lazing and Collin Kelly. I haven’t read it but I’ve heard it that comic wasn’t good.

[@fdjtron1732]

​@@commonsense5199 imo, Cassandra should date Tim. They had good chemistry in Post-Crisis after Stephanie's supposed death. Tim canonically finds her (and her mother before even meeting Cass) attractive. Tim helped and interacted with her more than all other Batfamily member's combined in Batman: Reborn era.

[@Voltbolto]

​@@fdjtron1732THEYRE SIBLINGS BRO 😂

[@Voltbolto]

​@@Sjaddixew hell nah duke shouldnt date cass

[@DVRKKNIGHT]

Your cuts to memes are always on point😂

[@superbtrilogy5049]

I liked how "No mans Land" the comic did the depiction of the Batfamily.

[@GwydionAE]

With a few exceptions, the pre-New 52 era was the height of Batfam content for me. Dick, Damian, Tim, Steph, Babs, and even Helena all had fun stuff going on, and we got the see them actually interact with each other. Dick and Damian were on a team, Tim had moments with them and Steph, Babs was mentoring Steph, and Helena and Babs were working together while Babs was just doing her Oracle thing. Streets of Gotham and Tiny Titans were two very different takes on the franchise, allowing multiple ages to get in on the Batfam train. And every one of them felt fleshed out and interesting. Now, Jason and Cass got the short end of the stick by a long shot (which sucks), and Bruce only showed back up near the end (though his bits were great as well), but so many Batfam members were getting properly highlighted and actually interacting with each other at this time that it will always be my favorite time in comics. Due to my fondness for this era, I just don't see how starting with a Bruce and Damian team up will work without Dick and Damian coming first. It's such a core part of Damian becoming Robin to me that it makes me sad every time it's overlooked. There's so little actual good Dick Grayson content outside of the comics the way it is that it feels like a further slap in the face to his fans.

[@fdjtron1732]

I agree, Post-Crisis Batfamily is by far the best version but, Post-Crisis Jason isn't a part of Batfamily which makes sense, since he shouldn't be, and Cass was at her best during Post-Crisis, sure they moved her aside in Batman: Reborn era but it was clearly temporary, her character wasn't ruined and the writer made it clear that they didn't forget about her.

[@-Theo-]

I’m still so mad Tim isn’t the main Robin in the Young Justice show. I love Dick but he already has so many shows that focus on him like Teen Titans, YJ is supposed to be Tim’s thing. They couldn’t even be bothered to give him any meaningful interaction with his absolute best friend (Conner) and they made them basically strangers in the show. Their friendship is my favorite relationship from the comics and I hate the fact that we don’t see it anywhere these days. I also hate when they give him a buzzcut, it doesn’t fit him at all lmao Tim is so underrated and always gets shafted. The fact that he probably won’t even be in James Gunn’s DCU greatly upsets me, but it’s not surprising at all. It’s really sad seeing Tim and Conner unceremoniously replaced by Damian and Jon :( When will they finally let him shine again?

[@thesilverwolfofnyc5077]

The problem isn't it's size it's how their all handled

[@44excalibur]

Ironically, this is one of the problems that the Crisis on Infinite Earths in 1985-1986 was supposed to fix, along with the Superman family. DC Comics streamlined their entire continuity down post-Crisis, but in the 21st century they seem to have forgotten why they did it in the first place, and have allowed everything to become even more convoluted than it was before.

[@Batman-fg4wu]

On the topic of CW, while many people don't really like the show Arrow - I enjoy it and really wish we could've gotten a CW Batman type show where the Batfamily characters are gradually introduced like in Arrow

[@struggleskywalker1025]

Agreed, instead we got that damn Batwoman tv show and the dumpster fire that was Gotham Knights.

[@EdenHellCipher]

Cassandra and Stephanie’s friendship was something I always looked forward to when I was still reading comics (I stopped just after New 52). As a little girl growing up reading Batgirl, they felt like the two sides of my personality: One morose, almost never talks, great student; the other one won’t shut up, overshares, and is extraordinarily stubborn, especially when it comes to ideals. They have been so constant shafted, I’m glad they’re getting talking about more. They’re my two favorite characters in DC, and most people never heard of them.

[@Batman-fg4wu]

8:17 We should've saw the signs.... Like father like son

[@opposite_hedgehog_753]

Batman 04 is very underrated. Glad you brought it up.

[@kale3144]

Wayne Family Adventures is iconic imo

[@dionysisnance4204]

What they doing to tim drake red robin and jason todd red hood is just dirty. Gives them so good storyline please

[@whomilloo]

Batman got a whole orphanage, he’s the Angelina Jolie of the Justice League

[@hungryalmighty7156]

I think gunn will condense it for his dcu. I think it’s just gonna be Batman, the 4 robins, catwoman, and batgirl. Now that’s still a lot especially with the 4 robins cause that’s something that’s definitely gonna confuse the general audience without proper explanation. Personally this is how id explain the 4 robins in brave and the bold. First things first I would have Tim drake in this new dcu be the oracle to batman. He’s not gonna be called oracle but rather the role she plays is what Tim drake is gonna be just without the whole being disabled nonsense. So basically In this universe Damian Wayne is technically the 3rd robin cause after Jason Todd batman refuses to have another robin and endanger another child. U could than have a scene where batman takes Damian in the bat cave and Damian meets Alfred and Tim. Batman leaves Damian with Tim and Alfred for some reason cause he has to go do something or whatever. Tim is trying to bond with damian and he refuses to than sees 2 robin costumes. He asks who’s are these and this is where u get Tim saying that the first costume is dick Grayson and tells Damian that he’s now nightwing. Damian asks about the 2nd robin and Tim stays quite and says Batman couldn’t save him. And there u go u, now to the general audience u have an easy explanation dick the retired robin, Jason the dead robin, and in the movie u have Damian being the current Robin. And now each Batman family member has a role and has something to do. Nightwing can get a spin off hbo max tv show after brave and the bold and than he’s the leader of a titans movie. Red hood eventually comes back For an under the red hood adaptation. Tim is “oracle” in every Batman movie while Damian is the main robin running around with Batman. And later on depending on how long the dcu is successful, in like a 3rd Batman movie or whatever u can have Tim drake suit up as Red Robin because he feels that Batman and the rest of the bat family needs all the help they can get. And by that time it won’t be confusing cause the general audience would have already gotten to know Tim

[@struggleskywalker1025]

Here would be my line up for the Batfamily: The Core Seven: Batman, Alfred, Dick, Tim, Barbara, Cassandra, Damian The Reserve Batfam members (codename: Cavalry): Jason (depending on how well he's getting on with Bruce at the time), Stephanie, Duke, Kate, Harper, and Luke Fox Occasional Allies: Catwoman, Azrael, Katana, Huntress This way we keep it below 20+ members, which is admittedly excessive. And it gives the opportunity to have other Batman-related characters go off and do their own thing and have their own storyline without constantly having to show up in Gotham. As much as I love Jason, I understand that his character may not always be the best fit for the Bat-family. Hence his placement in the Reserve category. It doesn't completely remove him from the family and still keeps him pretty close with the other core members, but it also allows him the freedom to go off and do his own thing, without the pressure of Batman finding out or threatening to kick him off the team. Although, once Alfred dies (or after since he already did in the comics), I feel like Jay would instantly move up the ladder to Core Member status again, if only to be with his family more because Alfred’s death takes a toll. It also gives Tim, more time to shine and something to do because my boy has been lacking in content recently because, in pure middle-child fashion, he is always overlooked by the oldest (Dick and Jay) and/or the youngest (Damian). So this puts him front an center especially since Dick has his own city to protect anyway, so he won't be around as much either. I was honestly tempted to put Damian in the reserve section and Jason in the core seven but then thought better of it. I already explained why for Jason, but for Damian, he is too ingrained in the core Batfamily now for me to make a shift. Honestly, I think he has potential to be great, if the writers actually tried. So, with proper writing and care, I’ll keep him on the core seven. Babs is self-explanatory as are Dick and Alfred. Cassandra is on the main team because I think she was the best Batgirl successor to Babs, and I really wanna see more father-daughter relationship moments with her and Bruce. So yeah. The others are also pretty self-explanatory. I mean, we rarely see them anyway, although we are starting to get more and more of Kate, Duke, and Luke I feel. Stephanie had a rocky start as the actual fourth Robin, but she got better once she became her own hero. I’ll keep her as Spoiler, because again Cass is the only other Batgirl to me. Catwoman is an occasional ally because she’s still a scheming klepto, and I don't really like her with Bruce, because of how much she fucking flip-flops. Katana is one of those allies that could easily become a reserve member should one of the others retire or if she just decided to stay in Gotham for a while. Azrael is an occasional ally because he is more unknown, but still closely rooted in Batman lore to be associated with the Bats. He also has the potential to become a reserve member.

[@Aries_5916]

Duke, Cassandra, Cassie, all unused for literally no reason

[@Oblivion___]

Maybe it's because there are 8 other characters in front of them who are more popular and have more stories to be told.

[@Aries_5916]

@Oblivion___ they don't even give those characters stories. Your reasoning is flawed. There's tons of interest in these other characters they just don't capitalize on it. They use them as props if they're only there as background dressing. Honestly your reasons are paper thin Cassie and Cassandra have existed for over 20 years and dc has done nothing with them them they made Duke to be like hey there's a black person on the team now and do nothing with him. They have had all Robin's before damian for forever and never used them until new 52 and even then they don't do tim drake properly at all. If it's about popularity guess what they aren't doing anything at all with those popular characters and can't make any other characters popular because they never use them. This logic dont hold up especially with the history of dc comics being what it is and as bad as it is they just use poc and black characters like Cassandra and Duke for diversity dressing and spoiler as a hey we have another woman card. It's trash writing and usage of characters that dc utterly lacks the ability to do no point in introducing characters to never ever use them at all

[@Oblivion___]

@@Aries_5916 Tim is an extremely uninteresting character, Dick is Nightwing, Jason is Red Hood, Tim is nothing, and it's not for DC's lack of attempt to change the character, some characters are successful, others aren't, simple as that, you want that characters created with bad ideas become successful based on the bad ideas they were initially created with. Your logic is completely wrong. Cassandra is a character with an interesting concept, she is the only one who has salvation from the Batgirls. All you want are the same Tim and Stephanie stories, but the universe progresses and some characters don't, because their foundations are bad. Damian is successful because his concept allows for interesting stories and arcs, as a result several writers want to write stories with him, simple as that. Tim is nothing more than a boy who took Robin's costume when Batman was depressed when Jason died. The only hype for the character is that he is a detective. Duke is the most ridiculous and unnecessary thing of all, created by a writer who wanted another Robin, but who was abandoned by the creator himself because the creator had more interesting ideas. LOL. The best thing that happened to Tim was DC making him Bi, because DC FORCED writers to write something with the character, because otherwise, no one would have written anything with him, because the character is boring and no one wants anything to do with him.

[@brettthebest3978]

You know it kinda sucks that the new batman movie in the new DCU will have Damien skipping so much history like they’re definitely going to have todd be mentioned in one line and I bet their skipping Tim

[@vincentshadetree]

6:00 That man had a fantasy about somebody 🤔🙄 and was living vicariously through Batman. It's an awkward pairing considering how they're all connected

[@SirFrancisMill]

Personally I agree that the Batfamily has become too big nowadays. At most I would say that the Btafamily should, at most, have Batman, the Robins, Stephanie, Cassandra, Barbara, Selina ,and maybe Duke, but even then, it would be very hard to write any story with everyone in it. So if the story were to have this big of a family it would need to introduce characters and establish dynamics over the course of multiple comics/movies/episodes. Any more members would have to be part of the Batman Inc and only appear occasionaly like Batwoman and Azrael. Also, some members could interact with the Batfamily and help them / learn from them, but would be better of on their on like Harley

[@Spiralz-Trapr2099]

10:47 I get tired of the bat family beating the s*** out of Red Hood every time he goes against the wave not one time they try and see it from his point of view beating the s*** out of him till this day red hood needs to get all the outsiders of the bat family and make his own family branch

[@fdjtron1732]

Honestly, Jason and the Batfamily should never have made a peace in the first place. Man shot 10-years old Damian when they first met and then tried to kill Tim (again) and Dick.

[@Spiralz-Trapr2099]

I'm 50/50 I almost don't disagree with you I think it's crazy how a bunch of outsiders can still single out it's almost suicide crazy just because he kills they treat him just like Harley Quinn & hush

[@Spiralz-Trapr2099]

Just to say my perfect team would be the Grinch night Batman Red Hood and Damian Wayne and the ghost guy can't remember his name

[@Rengokuo4o6]

@@fdjtron1732 What? You kidding?

[@fdjtron1732]

@@Rengokuo4o6 have you not read Battle for the Cowl or anything about Jason pre-new 52? Original Red Hood/Jason Todd is anti-villain not anti-hero.

[@jonbrewer297]

0:06 Harley's just oversaturated. DC thinks of her as a fourth pillar, when they don't just give that role to the Joker. 4:50 He's more like Jason Todd. They literally took Jason's origin and gave it to Tim. The DCAU also has a problem of making Dick overall a flat character. Basically he's Barbara's love interest. I can't complain too much, since I'm always complaining about female characters being reduced to love interests and this time it's one of the guys, but I can say, I felt ill about this ship going back to Mask of the Phantasm. 5:57 And that's another thing: Barbara has traditionally been older in the comics (and not paired with Dick until the late 90s). Hell, she served in Congress, and she has wrinkles in some panels of Ostrander's Suicide Squad. (Yes, Barbara was on the Suicide Squad. That's actually where her Oracle identity comes from. I actually think modern DC doesn't like Ostrander's Suicide Squad run, because they keep decanonizing parts of it, usually related to Oracle.) Though this just means Bruce Timm de-aged Barbara and gave us two unpleasant ships as a result. (For the record, Barbara isn't the only Batgirl being deaged. Last we saw Stephanie Brown, she was 14. Remember that she was introduced as a pregnant teenager.) 12:50 Don't forget the Joker's Daughter. In the comic she's not the Joker's daughter; she just cosplays as a genderbent Joker and calls herself the Joker's daughter. She had a thing for Robin, but most of the 70s female Titans did. She never had a big fan base, but then you have the New 52 Joker's Daughter, who no one likes. I think we can hope for the best from James Gunn. He's already indicated an interest in New Teen Titans and Ostrander's Suicide Squad, so we'll have Dick and Barbara in other corners of the DCU. Jason and Tim are the odd ones out, but as long as they avoid the New 52 versions, I'm fine.

[@fdjtron1732]

I miss Post-Crisis Batfamily.

[@wilhelmtheconquerer6214]

My batfamily is Batman, the 4 main Robins, Batgirl and Alfred. I'd be willing to extend it to Batwoman, Catwoman, Comissioner Gordon and Batwing, but Harley? Come on! She's already got the Suicide Squad, Joker's crew and Ivy, how many associates does she need?

[@_General_Grievous__]

How are any of them cool with Harley being there after what she helped Joker do to Jason😂

[@betterlatethannever4529]

Did she? I don’t remember her being involved with that scenario

[@fdjtron1732]

Her character was created after Jason's death

[@Hecateofcrossroads]

@@betterlatethannever4529no but she was involved in Tim’s brainwashing in the animated series

[@struggleskywalker1025]

@@Hecateofcrossroadsyeah, but that is only in the tv show.

[@-Theo-]

@@Hecateofcrossroads I’d say her screwing Tim over is one of the only things that make her fit in with the batfamily 💀

[@joy4themightydonutchainsaw620]

Batman Nightwing Red Hood Red Robin Robin Signal Oracle Spoiler Black Bat Batwoman Huntress Alfred Outside of Incorporated I ignore the rest depending on the timeline I add Terry that’s a lot of characters to juggle no more expanding just refine but that’s been questionable lately

[@darryljack6612]

I agree with the aliases you kept certain characters as, like keeping Barbara as Oracle, Tim as Red Robin, and Cassandra as Black Bat. The only one i would add in that you left out would be BatWing/Luke Fox, and maybe remove Huntress

[@negressprincess]

I thought Cassandra was Orphan not Black Bat

[@darryljack6612]

@@negressprincess She took up both of those names at one point or another, along with also taking up the mantle of batgirl in the past.

[@adamshalashaska5698]

To me the Bat Family will forever be just Robin, Nightwing, Redhood, Alfred and Oracle. Thats it.

[@michonnewalker4246]

SAME, DON'T KNOW OR CARE FOR OTHERS EXPECT FOR RED ROBIN.

[@-Theo-]

Tim too

[@adamshalashaska5698]

@@-Theo- was referring to Tim when I said Robin

[@-Theo-]

@@adamshalashaska5698 Oh then I agree

[@Oblivion___]

@@-Theo- Tim is overrated

[@Bman32x]

13:39 so long as Gunn casts Alan Ritchson as Batman/Bruce Wayne, I know they’ll be on the right track. Have Nightwing & Red Hood mentioned, but you don’t even need them to show up in the movie.

[@user_miike]

crazy how a minute long clip made me realize in 22 years i haven’t seen any media where jason and dick interact meaningfully

[@dandragonz3483]

Amazing video, love all the points that were made. I want to quickly mention 2 pieces of media that incorporate the Batfam that weren’t mentioned in this video. 1. The Lego Batman movie, which I personally think is a great movie to show Batman becoming more open to working with others and needing a bat family of some kind. 2. There’s an unofficial Batfamily webtoon called Wayne Family adventures which even though it’s probably not as known and I don’t think it’s official in any way does go to great lengths to highlight each member of the bat family and their dynamics with one another.

[@KonEl17]

Gotham Knights was treating them like the TMNT which I don't mind lol. A Robin's book should be like that.

[@Spiralz-Trapr2099]

10:31 I agree about Red Robin he's an okay character I really don't care for Tim Drake that much but I do know a good bit about him he feels like they're giving him Donatello vibes they need to put some respect in his name hopefully one day they step him up

[@baki484]

Better to stay away from it than mess it up. I agree Cassandra Cain is very underrated and the best batgirl in my opinion. I don't like Duke, batwing, Jace fox, blue bird and batwoman

[@zhennaleigh1037]

Idek who jace fox is but i like batwing and batwoman and signal. Blue bird felt so unnecessary when reading her comics tho. But ik people like her

[@struggleskywalker1025]

I feel like Duke’s powers should be more mystical or gothic in nature to fit with the aesthetic, but his presence definitely gives the Batfam an different edge. Batwoman and Batwing have some cool team ups with each other and with Bats so I’ll allow them. Jace and Bluebird are unnecessary.

[@roxannemacgown3251]

3:56 he went from Dick Grayson to Nodick Grayson

[@MrTerrorFace]

You should've covered Lego Batman, both the games and the films. The Batfamily is featured rather prominently, they're even major theme in the Lego Batman film.

[@MikeHunt-fx9rg]

Dick as Batman era was an underrated Bat Family

[@fdjtron1732]

Fax, that was peak Batfamily

[@FormerRexed]

The Batman of the early 2000 was peak (if u know u know)

[@renardofranklin608]

I feel the same way about the spider verse too many characters and others being pushed aside

[@mhalo777]

7:16 that “Sir?” Took me out 😭😭

[@jim-bob3093]

Or the fact that being part of the family often strips down interesting character quirks and instead of behaving like a family were we see how they each interact with eachother. Its mostly just how they sololy interact with Batman. God it enraged me how much potential GK squandered for lame jokes. They legit have Talia admitting to putting Nason in the murder hobo pit and the other bats treat it like she ordered him the wrong happy meal (I also dont want james gunn near jason. Rhato is his fav red hood run apparently)

[@chrismercedes4]

A reminder to ALL! young Justice is Not officially "Cancelled", re-watching season 4 reveals that the next season (season 5) will probably be the "final" season since the season is planning to show an event 10 years past the current events inside the show. For that to happen the have literally have too many moving pieces for them to just start working on actual work right after that season. The point of Young Justice is to display growth/ growing up as heroes in their world. since the show likes to display events in arc like ways following one character/ team for a couple episodes. also remember S.3. added so many kid characters also growing, making their own teams or joining older ones plus what ever the bigger villains are doing plus how to you show the movement of time without disorient the viewers making them feel like the show is moving too fast (one arc might be jumping to a couple of years later). the simple solution might be the show might be getting more seasons and don't have to jump to 10 years in S.5. As a long time fan (of Young Justice) I want to open peoples minds to the thoughts of the show ISN'T dead, the last season did Really well the stream App noticed the massive boost they got because of the shows return and exclusively on their app.

[@crownedshyness9656]

I say have less bat family members & focus on what we already have.

[@HELLO_KORO]

Former Robins and Batgirls only, it's wayyy easier to get into

[@gfilmer7150]

Agreed. Scale it down to 8 members, and have 4 of those be in other cities like Nightwing.

[@M567dk]

I agree with you as I do not care about Duke Thomas nor the Fox brothers and don’t get me started on the original Batwing and how he just left. I mean even I think that DC has a Batman and family problem with how big it is. I keep on waiting for the day when they have a massive story where it is just cut it down to size or two.

[@mikederdrache3305]

I’m glad people have hope for the more live action batfamily. Cause I sure as hell don’t. Titans and Gotham knight made sure to stomp out the little hope I have left.

[@dylansearcy3966]

1:05 writers have their favorite characters to work with

[@maximusprime3459]

My issue is def that theres too many of them. Plus, if theres so many of them operating in Gotham, why is it still such an unsafe, dangerous city? You really gotta question what good they're actually doing and why the criminals won't relocate.

[@gfilmer7150]

This is why it has to be scaled down to like 10% of what it is and move half of the members out to other cities like Bludhaven and Star City.

[@Broadkill54]

I would love to see Duke Thomas in one of the future DCU movies. From what I’ve read, his potential as a character is massive.

[@MistahJay7]

04 Batman is GOATED

[@skrrskrr]

8:59 Man, I love when Dick and Jason are just Leonardo and Raphael. It's the best.

[@FiniteXbc]

Harley has no business being in the family bro I've been feeling this way about Harley for awhile now (even before SSKTJL) i get that she is one of the rogues that can be rehabilited but why do the writers act like she ( especially in the Arkham series ) hasn't don't some pretty crazy stuff on her own or to please the Joker but the writers look at all the things she has done and boil it down to "Toxic Relationship"

[@isabellebread9773]

It sucks how Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain have never been adapted really ever, and in dceu she has nothing to do with cass I love the bat girls and they honestly are cooler than the robins to me I would've liked skins for them in Arkham knight

[@pian-0g445]

It’s an issue the mainline marvel comic universe 616 had for quite some time (I think it’s changed? Havent kept up). There were way too many spider people. Miles literally got trapped in the 616. And the inherent issue with the bat family compared to spiderman, is it’s name. It’s supposed to be a family. Yet, in the comic, we don’t really see enough of them together and developing as a family. There’s that recent web toon that actually touches on this topic, and is such a breath of fresh air for these characters. And, it feels in character with most iterations of them. Yes it’s got a lighter tone, but it’s the most we’ve seen of the family showing their bond besides a few good moments. The concept, as in name, while recent in Batman’s history, is actually an idea that makes sense. Bruce lost his parents. His only family being Alfred. And years of isolation and brewing of his negative emotions, that is till he becomes more mature and meets all kinds of people. A family of sorts starts to grow. All these people who either share a situation somewhat similar to him, or their admiration growing their bond with him, creates this family dynamic. I honestly think Gordon should somewhat be part of it too. Yes, it somewhat goes against my initial point, but he’s been such an important part of Bruce’s life as Batman throughout most incarnations, they’re basically brothers in arms.

[@GlitchingRobin]

The Batman literally introduced me to DC, favorite series ever

[@kingmuizz708]

Same, the theme hooked me and I've been a fan forever

[@shadowanderson2004]

My issue is that people are just now going “oh the batfamily is too big” not realizing that pre new 52 it was also massive. With the “immediate family” being the Nightwing, Red Robin, Robin, Oracle, Batgirl, Spoiler, Batman, and Alfred and then the “extended family” having Catwoman, Black Canary, Huntress, Batwoman,, sometimes Redhood, Knight, Squire and all the other Batman Inc characters. The batfamily is actually smaller now it’s just that they all somehow fall under the “immediate family” for some reason

[@queeniemarigold]

Honestly, I just pick and choose my own canon and enjoy what parts I like and ignore what I don't. At this point, basically nothing and everything is canon. And since no one could ever read every single version of Batman ever made, it's just not worth stressing over what is and isn't "real" in the story. And adaption will never do perfect justice to any of these characters unfortunately. Though it is pretty disappointing that live adaptations usually don't have many fans who love the source material helping create them though, I feel like it'd help a lot with adapting the charcters more accurately to their comic stories. Or just have at least one goddamn person with great media literacy skills, and that cares about character nuance on the team! Because plenty of people would jump at the chance to have Batman characters represented even just a bit more accurately, and finally have a use for all of their DC character knowledge. But still, everyone will have a different introduction to DC, so no ones experience of canon is the same as another. And canon is going to be different for every fan.

[@AnonDudeBro]

I’m personally okay with catwoman being at the very least a part-time bat family member with a bat-pod (or whatever we call them) depending on the version of her and if she’s more Robin-hood good who just steals or is a full on villian.

[@HELLO_KORO]

They gotta remove Nightwing he's got his own city,also red Hood and Huntress are killers they gotta go. Oracle does the same hacker thing as tim she oughta stick to birds of Prey

[@vincentluong7550]

I mean just because they have moved away or gone to their own group doesn't mean they are not part of the bat family. Just like how irl just because a relative moves away or moves to their own place doesn't mean they are no longer family

[@kaine8911]

Bro did not just say "Oracle does the same shit as Tim" you clearly know nothing about Oracle, I agree she needs to go only because I think batman doesn't need her, she should only appear in Gotham events but she's more like a Justice League level character. She's DC universes number one information dump, pre flashpoint she was the JLA's secret member known as the Data Central helping the JLA with information. She helped the entire Batfamily when she came back as Oracle during the Joker War Arc.

[@Tkclupz]

I don’t think he should be removed but he should not be there for dinner everyday if you understand what I mean. I feel like he should visit sometimes and help when it’s needed. But I don’t think oracle should be helping him and I don’t think he should go back to Gotham in every comic.

[@maevem316]

​@@kaine8911yeah, Oracle should get her own shit because she deserves it, not because *Tim* makes her redundant