DC RUINED Batman's BEST Love Interest

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

I agree they have ruined the character. Should've just been a night of passion, and she ended up getting pregnant.

[@doqas]

Read “Batman - Son of the Demon”

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

@@doqas yeah, but that was retconned

[@javierlopez9789]

​@@doqas at the end of that story Damian ends up getting adopted so its not even canon.

[@huntertezz]

@@javierlopez9789 there was a letter in a book called Batfiles where Talia implies she eventually goes back for Damian.

[@themadtitan7603]

​@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp From what I read, Talia drugging Bruce has also been retconned. So I'm not sure, why it keeps getting brought up like it's the current status quo everytime Talia's mentioned.

[@huntertezz]

Atleast the current Talia is back to being written as more of an ally who actually loves Damian and Bruce. But Talia's fate rest in the hands of the dcu and how they portray her.

[@nestorsifuentesaguirre2722]

I would mockingly call this Talia Cell Saga Vegeta for actually letting reality hit her hard in the face at the absolute worst time

[@themage6492]

I heard that even Grant Morrison regretted the choices he made with Talia, and also hoped that people would forget about them.

[@themadtitan7603]

Apparently, they only did it because they misremembered the events of Batman: Son of the Demon.

[@dc7981]

@@themadtitan7603 he forgor💀

[@nataliawashington872]

Nah cause like how do you misremember something consensual and decide to just make it rape because ur too lazy to go check ur sources?

[@Tekirai]

No way imma make him remember what he did and take his L for all eternity 😂😂

[@jaredgarcia8638]

​@@Tekirai, it's moments like this that remind us why his run on Batman was divisive

[@jonnjones8263]

I am genuinely tired of DC warping Talia into a monster.

[@Paradox-es3bl]

She’s the daughter of the head of the League Of Assassins. They’ve both done terrible things before they even met Batman. Why would she not be a monster? She’s a villain. An anti-villain at best. Never a hero. Never even an anti-hero like Catwoman often is. Idk what you’re talking about. Her endlessly loyalty to her father means she was always going to be a monster, unless he can stay dead for once. Then she’d have hope after over a decade with Bruce de-programming her. Cuz no way she isn’t brainwashed or close enough to it. He can at least make her realize she can do better and be better, and do things for herself to finally be happy, free of Ra’s. Unless/until he comes back because then she’ll just immediately spiral back to how she’s always been.

[@jonnjones8263]

@@Paradox-es3bl She's never been a monster to Bruce is what I mean. They made her into someone thats hated by both Bruce and her son.

[@death-nm7hr]

​@@jonnjones8263 As she should be she's a horrible person

[@Thatguyyouknow1238]

As someone who was first introduced to her in the dcamu and have never seen anything else. She is a FXCKING monster

[@cloudyday2253]

@@Thatguyyouknow1238 you just admitted you never read anything of her original character, your opinion is biased, stupid, and based on racist shit.

[@aidanhever3369]

Yeah, this is why I have problems with Talia al Ghul. She wanted to do the right thing for her love for Batman. However, her loyalty to her father is too strong for her. Seriously, it's like the writers don't know what to do with her. And Catwoman is no better either.

[@huntertezz]

Talia has been trying to leave her father side and she actually did for awhile leave Ra's and did good on her own. But then Death and the Maidens happened...

[@aidanhever3369]

@@huntertezz What's that ?

[@huntertezz]

@@aidanhever3369 Basically she gets tricked and captured by her sister Nyssa who tortures, kills and resurrects Talia until she went insane and evil.

[@camerondalton1495]

That did happen huh? Does that ever get addressed since for why Talia has gone mad.

[@killmonger5097]

@@huntertezzthat’s the most garbage excuse one writer shits on her so other writers have to continuously shit on her because of the previous writer wtf

[@nwjnsand]

It's so frustrating to see DC try to mold Talia into this villainess role, when her half-sister, Nyssa Al Ghul is RIGHT THERE! This is especially prominent with Gotham Knights, where all Talia's actions would make a lot more sense for Nyssa: from her resentment towards Ra's and taking over the League, to repeatedly putting Bruce into the Lazarus Pit to break his mind (something that, I'm not kidding, actually happened TO Talia in Batman: Death and the Maidens. Nyssa killed and revived Talia over and over to drive her insane). Nyssa, unlike Talia, actually has a tragic backstory that explains her descent into villainy, but doesn't have decades of history as Batman's ally and his love interest. I really dislike this recent characterization of Talia as "Ra's but female". It's incredibly boring, and completely ruins any dynamic between her and her father, because when two characters act the same, think the same, talk the same, it's as dynamic as a piece of stale bread. Where is the conflict, the depth, THE SAUCE? Classic, pre-Morrison Talia was constantly torn between her loyalty to her father and her love for Bruce; her understanding Ra's point, but disliking his methods; craving freedom, but unable to leave Ra's side. She was complex and so incredibly compelling, and I miss her so damn much.

[@camerondalton1495]

Ironically Nyssa WAS used prominently in the Arrow verse. Though I think it was just Talia with Nyssa name was into women. 😅 Nyssa just doesn't have the years of stories and noterity that Talia has.

[@killmonger5097]

Talia is a garbage character she’s not compelling or interesting writers completely destroyed her it’s disgusting when she’s mentioned or seen

[@camerondalton1495]

@@killmonger5097 I wouldn't say she's garbage. She was compelling when she was the love interest who genuinely loved Bruce and loved her father despite both men being at odds. She also wanted to forge her own path. Which she did until she was tortured and brought back to life multiple times.

[@samflood5631]

Maybe Batman should have married Zatanna instead due to how many bad relationships he has so far.

[@camerondalton1495]

@@samflood5631 Zatana mindwiped Bruce though. And Catwoman for that matter.

[@jonbrewer297]

One quick note: The madness from the Lazarus pit is temporary, though it's longer each time. Though in the DCAMU, it seems to be permanent.

[@huntertezz]

In the comics its implied over exposure can leave to more permanent effects. In Talia's case she was repeatedly tortured, killed and then revived. No wonder she went amd.

[@JacobyJ56]

I've always wanted an elseworld story where Batman took Ras up on his offer and he becomes an Evil dictator that Justice League has to take down like Injustice

[@andrewmedley]

Oh !

[@kwayneboy1524]

There is a universe where that happened

[@nataliawashington872]

That would be so cool, like an evil Batfamily

[@jaceclassay4589]

​@@kwayneboy1524 source? Asking for myself

[@Thebeatkicks]

Wasn’t that superman??

[@GM-gb1eu]

I always liked this ship ( even though I love Bat&Cat also ), but after Morrison's run she probably will not be Bruce's love interest anymore ( maybe with heavy hard reboot to start again everything, maybe then). Yeah, she wasn't the best person, but her moral conflict between her Father and Bruce was really interesting.

[@huntertezz]

She is back to being one of Bruce's love interests, even kissed not too long ago. In the comics atleast they are trying to make her back to how she used to be. She is currently helping Bruce in detective comics.

[@djshadow3260]

​@@huntertezz Finally !!!!!!!!!!!!

[@TheR3d3mpti0n]

​@@huntertezz about time

[@themadtitan7603]

@@huntertezz Also from what I've read, Talia drugging Bruce was retconned. I don't know what that gets brought up more though.

[@GM-gb1eu]

​@@themadtitan7603 Because that shouldn't be made in the first place. If you adapt (more or less) old story to new continuity you have to read the og version and not defend yourself by "I misremembered" BS. And DCAMU also used this version of Damian's creation.

[@jonathanathor117]

4:12 man that scene scarred me as a child. Like damn Ra al ghul was willing to get $40 now or never. Maybe a male heir. Or an other way to cheat death.

[@breaderikthegreat3224]

Ras is Batman’s first Trans villain

[@CalvinNoire]

​@@breaderikthegreat3224 he was desperate for a son 💀

[@butterstotch3233]

@@breaderikthegreat3224Except he’s an actual lady not a lady boy

[@IbrahimAli-jl8fu]

"Then she proceeds to have a ma-" SHE DOES WHAT WITH JASON? ASTAGHFIRULLAH FEAR GOD TALIA 😂😂

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

Yeah, wtf?

[@ibrahimihsan2090]

She's the daughter of a murderer and I really don't think they ever intended her and Ra's al Ghul to be Muslims despite the Arab aesthetic.

[@queerios1077]

The new 52 retconned the Talia x Jason stuff

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

@queerios1077 well, that's good.

[@KirbalVerbalEditz]

​@@ibrahimihsan2090What?? Hes just telling her to find god

[@abiodunsulaiman2297]

4:15 ra's was wild for that one plot

[@Achieme]

Hear me out

[@jonathanathor117]

He probably wanted a son. Or grandson

[@cliffbot638]

What's wrong with them them sharing a night of passion and getting pregnant from it? That's a solid backstory for Damian.

[@baligong3592]

Not that there's something wrong with it, because what's wrong with a female character just giving into evil, while also showing her obsession with Batman like her father? So much so, she basically made a "Bio-Clone" of Batman. The "night of passion" can just be with Catwoman + Batman = Helena Wayne

[@TheR3d3mpti0n]

​@baligong3592 let me tell you a story. Back in the 50s-60s batman and catowman had a daughter. This daughter soon became the huntress after batman and catwoman die. This was a stlryline for a while before she got rebooted into no longer being there daughter. Talia is constantly retconned by authors between good lr bad sometimes both. If DC had consitency we wouldnt be having this problem.

[@baligong3592]

@@TheR3d3mpti0n You're right, and it will remain to be that way because these characters were never made to end. If Comics were more by 1 Writer, then consistency is likely to happen, and though many bring comparisons to Manga, the difference is: if the Mangaka dies, the story ends there unless the Mangaka says otherwise. I guess the best way to make there be consistency with Batman, or any Character, is if they reboot the Universe every decade or few years... But people wouldn't like it anyways.

[@TheR3d3mpti0n]

@@baligong3592 that's the thing, they ARE made by more than one writer. Mamga has one writer and their assistants through their run. Comic books get passed Luke torches to other writers constantly which, as already proven, will make everything inconsistent. All it takes is for someone on the writing team not to agree with their predecessor and everything gets screwed up. Look at Ms. Marvel in Avengers #200. Guy who made Carol Danvers set her up as the new Captain Marvel and she got screwed over by another writer. This will constantly happen till Marvel and DC get really good editors or just get rid of main continuity.

[@TheR3d3mpti0n]

@@baligong3592 we need a reboot anyways. Theres too much after the death metal event that recently happened.

[@comicfan1324]

I would’ve never called her Batman’s best love interest, but I could at least say on paper the idea of Batman’s sympathy, for someone who was robbed their childhood and brainwashed into a life of violence growing into a mutual love would be interesting. But in the chemistry, at least to me, always felt artificial at best. And when they decided to make her a rapist, all bets were off.

[@queerios1077]

The rape was retconned and only happened because Grant Morrison misremembered Son of the demon. She’s also now back to being a serious love interest as of Ram V’s detective comics

[@Drums_of_Liberation]

​@@queerios1077So she's not a psycho ex wife stereotype anymore?

[@queerios1077]

@@Drums_of_Liberation not at all

[@AlcoraoValdemarAlbertoSantos.]

​@@queerios1077Hey, bro. Could you tell me Thalia's status currently? Is she still in love with Batman?

[@queerios1077]

@@AlcoraoValdemarAlbertoSantos. They fucked recently in Ram V's detective comics

[@slyc5920]

Well, modern writing especially towards women is either straight evil to the point they need no man and everything they do is justified OR They are written as the "Hero" that needs no man and everything is justified. There is no such thing as nuance in these writers' heads.

[@Saje3D]

And what are your credentials, as a writer? How many narratives have you written, how many characters have you created? My guess would be ZERO.

[@slyc5920]

@@Saje3D Actually self-published three books and placed in some competitions. So... Your point my dude? Sure, they didn't get popular but I did the work and trained with professional writers. For you to even say this as an insult shows me personally the spine you have. People can't criticize others' works because "THEY DIDN'T WRITE BOOKS" What kinda of statement is even that? Re-evaluate, think, and come back with something better.

[@Ash-wf6me]

Its because they don't see women as people and can't write them as such. I kind of hate how people complain it's "woke" when it's not progressive at all its actually the same old sexist tropes in new packaging. Hell I don't even think you can claim they are written to "need no man" when they are still designed to cater to the male gaze.

[@punyashloka4946]

​​@@slyc5920Which women character would you like to have?

[@VacadoRay]

0:01 talia in this dress is so FINE AF like i was so down bad when i saw her in it

[@Achieme]

And they say Bruce's relationship with Catwoman is toxic😂 Edit: I take it back Catwoman is way much worse.

[@redram6080]

It is. But so is this one

[@jlpgamin]

It's not

[@Chriskentfan94]

​@@redram6080 this one is the most toxic...I mean she's the definition of jealousy issues. She will go so far as to actually murder the one woman Batman legitimately loved and could have continued heroics with on the day he was gonna pop the question.

[@jonathanathor117]

Honestly I wished their relationship worked. I really wished it did work. But DC said no.

[@dionlackey798]

Catwoman is probably worse now

[@irrelevanthoodiegirl2046]

I also think a big elephant in the room regarding Talia's characterization is the political aspect, her race and how public perception of people from Arab country's has shifted since 2001.

[@Gemini053]

THIS RIGHT THERE! You can't tell me that what Grant Morrison did wasn't an act of racism and disparagement that he felt he could get away with at that time.

[@NisarKhan-jm1uh]

​@@Gemini053 This makes me hate the retcon and Talias downright character assassination even more.

[@cliffbot638]

If Talia is written well, I wonder if she and Bruce could genuinely be happy together. Have Damian and maybe even be married.

[@huntertezz]

They would have. Atleast in future state Talia and Bruce decided to retire and live together with Damian to help him overcome his hell trauma.

[@altalia07]

Aww

[@cliffbot638]

@@huntertezz That sounds great. Wish a happy like that could happen for Bruce

[@djshadow3260]

I would Pay too see that happen.

[@themadtitan7603]

​@@cliffbot638 I would've liked if they set up Talia as Bruce's endgame love interest and had them settle down in the years following Son of The Demon.

[@max4377jk]

6:48 Arkham Knight Moment, when Batman goes to Evidence Lock up and sees her sword, That moment made me cry cause i grew up with BTAS and Batman Beyond

[@TotalTech2.]

Talia is a very interesting character because depending on the author she can be as heroic as Catwoman or *worse* than the Joker

[@ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΑ-ε1ω]

Will you stop That Catwoman Is not a Hero She never was she never will be

[@rynobehnke8289]

​@@ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΑ-ε1ωI mean the original earth 2 Catwoman became a hero for good. That is how the Huntresse was first created to.

[@ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΑ-ε1ω]

@@rynobehnke8289 Ahhh Ok

[@TotalTech2.]

@@ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΑ-ε1ω She isn't a traditional hero but she has teamed up with Batman and in recent years she is definitely more good than bad

[@tomodachiotaku8004]

@@TotalTech2. Catwoman is also extremely toxic. I will never forget that she left him at the altar, a selfish whore, or when she decided to train criminals to be more efficient when stealing.

[@M567dk]

I was more Bat and Cat fan than Taila and Bat fan as she had strong connections for her father. Unlike Bat and Cat are solo players who fight for what they think is Justice. That and I was never a fan of Damien Wayne as a character.

[@camerondalton1495]

Damien did get much better.

[@dusktiger112]

Character assassination is pretty much why I hate Flashpoint. it is the point where storylines and Characters degrade to travesty’s they are now.

[@huntertezz]

Talia's character has actually been improved in recent years. She was cured of her madness and is an ally and love interest of Batman again.

[@kwayneboy1524]

I mean it wasnt due to Flash point

[@dusktiger112]

@@kwayneboy1524yes it is. Flashpoint allowed the writers to ignore characters, history, and lore. To put in there bad fanfic plots.

[@Ggggg-m2y]

I liked Talia a lot when I played Arkham City. She was very compelling. I haven’t got to the episodes of the animated series with Talia yet but I’m excited to.

[@themadtitan7603]

That was one of my first introductions to her character. I wish that version of Talia and her relationship with Bruce was fleshed out more and I was hoping she'd return in Knight. I imagine their dynamic is similar to what I've looked up about their relationship in the O'Neil run.

[@quentinjones6877]

Yeah I liked her in Arkham city but that was before I found out how Damian was conceived

[@RositaDepre]

I honestly don't remember her and I played both Asylum and City, I guess she apears later on

[@carlosnicolini1719]

Good video, it was about time somebody said all this stuff. But a very important fact is missing: the ruining of Talia in comics began in 2003 in the "Batman: Death And The Maidens" miniseries, in which her half-sister Nyssa tortured her until turning her into just another psychotic villain.

[@camerondalton1495]

You're right!!! That makes turn into a villain in Morrison's run even worse and more tone deaf when it's played as her being bad from the start and this not being the result of horrible torture.😖😖😖

[@unluckydreamer]

I still don’t like her as the endgame love interest 👨🏾‍🍳

[@ibrahimihsan2090]

Personally, that was never the point. The point was simply that she loved Bruce and Bruce loved her. Not that they'd settle together.

[@unluckydreamer]

@@ibrahimihsan2090 do you like Superman and Wonder Woman together

[@TheR3d3mpti0n]

Arkham games says otherwise​@@ibrahimihsan2090

[@ibrahimihsan2090]

@@unluckydreamer NO! Clark and Lois got married, and had a child. And I really don't want that retconned. Bruce had a child but practically speaking, he never really settled with a woman. Tried to but never did.

[@elliotsturtplus3400]

@@unluckydreamernah I mean Batman and Wonder Woman honestly I’d see that some what working atleast in the Animated series universe

[@majesticgamer2957]

my head canon for batman bad blood is that the lazarus pit made her lose her empathy for bruce and damien coz if you enter the lazarus pit you’re not supposed to come back the same usually you come back demented but in her case she lost her emotions

[@Nightman221k]

Personally I think that the downfall of writing Talia as a character began with Batman Beyond’s weird inter generational body swap seducing the prospective son in law plot. It was absolutely impossible to see Ra’s and Talia as anything but nonsensical after that. Like compare it to the BTAS adventures where there was pathos and an atmosphere of dignity to them both. Then we get “yucky, I kissed an old man in a girls body” and he has a man voice in her body? Can anyone see this episode without finding it to be a downgrade compared to the BTAS ones? It’s really no wonder that after that the future writers decided “the Al Ghul family is just asinine and random” and threw out the characterization that made them compelling.

[@Cornyboa]

I prefer Talia as a tragic character than a evil witch

[@MichaelJones-rz5sw]

11:00 I'm not going to lie. That outfit makes her look like the white power ranger. Lmao

[@justaturky2890]

Fr

[@WeebGuru6]

But it’s a good design

[@questworldiangreenknight7455]

I’m so glad you made a video covering this subject as she was one of my favorite Batman love interests and I hated how her character was gutted over the years.

[@trehubb6144]

That's why I prefer the story of them having fallen in love & had a 1 night stand. I feel Bruce definitely loves Talia and the nefarious child making didn't need to be apart of Damian creation.

[@susanstorm7910]

Bruh! I’m so grateful you made this video. Morrison ruined her and the modern writers truly pissed me off Hopefully… when I get famous and stuff, I’ll do my best to honor the og Talia that we all loved. Talia is his greatest love and soulmate, Selina isn’t

[@Evecustosdelux]

I absolutely loved Talia in the era of the 2000s where she helped lead Lexcorp post-Tower Of Babel . I miss that Talia . Atleast Ram V is writing her well again !

[@VDOTU5]

What well-written, sadistic female villains are left in comic books? Whether retcon or not, seems like everybody wants such villains to be limited as fuq.

[@euniquewasbarelyhere317]

3:00 "brother euughhhh" we all say in unison

[@dariusporter358]

For me, Bruce’s true love will always be Catwoman. They are perfect together.

[@huntertezz]

Catwoman is also toxic and not good. Batman's best love would always be Zatanna.

[@dc7981]

@@huntertezz catwoman when written well*

[@maadtee6281]

​@@huntertezz so she's perfect for Bruce then Zatanna is way too good to be with Bruce

[@Joey-vs4fr]

Tell that to “Nightwing #52”

[@jlpgamin]

@@Joey-vs4fr using a non canon one off situation where she and Batman at the time weren't even together doesn't prove your point

[@lg6884]

Honestly I kinda can't see him ending up with any of the masks. His relationship with Selina and Talia is toxic, his relationship with Diana that was good in DCAU canonically didn't end well, and as much as I'd like to say there's Zatana... the whole mind wiping thing means they cannot ever be like they were again. Like what other women are there for him that can accept Bruce and Batman?

[@annymora-rq6vi]

The batwoman og

[@qwqpi]

I’m not sure why people keep bringing up the mind wipe? Batman forgave Zatanna in Dini’s Detective comics..so well over a decade now.

[@Solace-Guillotine-4140]

After reading your last comment it made me think of Andrea Boumont from Mask of the Phantasm. Her only main screen appearance is in that movie yet she still managed to be one of the best Batman love interests. Both representing the happy live Bruce would've had and the dark path Batman would've been if vengeance consumed. What I love the most about her is that despite how much she goes through she'll always do what she believes Batman stands for. With how much present DC adapted from BTS I'm sad she wasn't introduced in the main comics 😓

[@lg6884]

@ Yeah that is a missed opportunity since characters such as Harley, Livewire, Montoya and even Roxy were added.

[@lightdarksoul2097]

I do see catwoman as the best option even before the Damien thing

[@huntertezz]

Nah the best option will always be Zatanna. Catwoman is also toxic.

[@jlpgamin]

@@huntertezz she's not toxic and even Zatanna advocates for Bruce and Selina

[@RedCommunistDragon]

@@huntertezzHow is Catwoman toxic? I mean yeah she’s a thief but that’s certainly lightyears better than the demonic scum Talia is.

[@huntertezz]

@@jlpgamin not toxic? Made out with his son, left him at the altar, cheated on him, started a war in gotham over a stupid plan which tore apart the batfamily. Only because Batman pushed away Zatanna. She is still the best option for him.

[@jlpgamin]

@huntertezz not canon. She was literally manipulated into leaving and then felt like shit for months. And she didn't tear the family apart Bruce's mental state is what caused them to go against him. And the point still stands that she advocates for them

[@monobro141]

Finally someone talks about Talia's flanderization for real I liked her in Son of Batman but then in Batman Bad Blood they made her a villain again and killed her off WHY such a waste could've had her try to be a better person but just didn't bother

[@amarachiisaac9420]

That was so annoying. I really didn’t like Batman: Bad Blood because of that.

[@coffeeortea547]

The most important reason that Damian must not be conceived without Bruce's consent is that it invalidates the hilarious line in the 2019 Batman Hush when he tells Bruce to wear protection 😂😂😂

[@44excalibur]

Look, Bruce and Talia's son was originally conceived in a consensual sexual act in 1986's Batman: Son of the Demon, and Talia was forced by her father, Ra's al Ghul, to give her child up for adoption to a wealthy and childless American couple in an ironic twist of fate. That's where the story should have ended. I never agreed with the post-Crisis on Infinite Earths retcon of the story that created Damian because it was beyond stupid.

[@altalia07]

I KNOW!!!😭😭😭 I absolutely love Talia, I adore her and Bruce being together. Unfortunately one of her first introductions to me was that storyline so I hated her for a short few months. Luckily I finally started reading comics very soon after that, and one of my first was Son of the Demon (one of my favs

[@killmonger5097]

Judd winick think it’s normal to raise a kid and sleep with them like in his own household

[@SydneyTamar2003]

Can DC & Marvel just give their characters a STABLE relationship

[@logandelaharpe6362]

I don’t think so unless your in the fantastic 4

[@Stanlos]

Ras isn't immortal. He artificially extends his life through use of the Lazarus Pits which have taken on massive plot device-itis.

[@javierlopez9789]

Originally she wasnt even that good of a fighter (batman literally had to jump in and save her in their first meeting) given she was supposed to be a pacifist before they turned her into terrorist black widow

[@dc7981]

Wow that sounds infinitely better but I’ll do one better. She’s terrorist Electra actually

[@Playmaker251000]

Finally someone said. I get why DC didn’t acknowledge it because rape is too big of an issue but dang they went silent on it

[@comicfan1324]

Hot take: Although I love Batman with Catwoman, I think Wonder Woman and Batman is the best pairing. I mean, think about it, in any continuity where the pair date they don’t go through anywhere near the amount of drama that does with his other love interest . It’s almost like their personalities play off of each other quite well or something.

[@huntertezz]

I think Zatanna is best.

[@ToasterLad_]

they were never a thing outside of JLU

[@StarfireKoriandr11]

​@ToasterLad_ yes. Yes they were

[@ToasterLad_]

@@StarfireKoriandr11alright then, enlighten me

[@RositaDepre]

​@@StarfireKoriandr11I'm also curious, the only comic where I've been told thay they are somehow together is in one of the alternate dark universes

[@justinbowers2749]

I disagree, I much prefer Batman and Catwoman and have no issue with Talia having birthed Bruce’s son through…non-consensual means. I mean how dare we have a female villain that has no problem being a villain and isn’t an anti-hero.

[@Gemini053]

Because that wasn’t her original character also that entire situation is steeped in racism, Talia was Batman’s first WOC love interest. And the story came out post 9/11, connect the dots

[@miss.mirana4061]

Something I wish they can do with Talia is make her relationship with Damian alot more complex like have it that she does love him but can't love him in a way that is healthy she after all raised him to be an assassin and that included putting him through hard and grosume training since he was born and she isolated him and deprived him from his childhood and placed really high expectations on him but she still loves him even abusive parents do love their children but in a way that's not healthy or helpful for their children that's a very complex issues and I think it would be more interesting if Damian and Talia had a more complex relationship rather than her straight up trying to kill him

[@tell-me-a-story-]

Honestly, I think Batman is best without any love interests. His only “child” should be an adopted dad relationship with his robins. I think Bruce makes sense as a perpetual single guy. Maybe he goes on a few dates here and there to keep up the attractive billionaire façade, but has no real interest in romance or women. I just think it works the best for him.

[@annymora-rq6vi]

Yes , el debe estar solo y no hay nada de malo

[@Gemini053]

AroAce Batman for the win! 😂 Brother said: “I AM Justice.”

[@superlol178]

Can you do a video on new DC characters? Like Punchline, Trinity, Godspeed... IdK...I'm really curious to see if the new popular characters are actually popular or just the flavor pf the month

[@Riqo2Suave]

Most characters within the last 10-15 years haven’t stuck, it seems as if DC and Marvel at a point where their characters from the 40s-90 hey hey hey hey Patty s have grown such a large shadow than anything after them feels like poor facsimile on top of that newer writers are less concerned on the lore, symbolism and morality of characters and more focused on the “identity” instead, because of this they rely on the characters outward characteristics which can’t stick on it’s so they attach it to a far more identity person

[@Rengokuo4o6]

I kinda like Punchline since she isn't really meant to be sympathetic, she's just a horrible person.

[@billyboleson2830]

Ghost maker…

[@TheR3d3mpti0n]

​@@Riqo2Suave we need more sideways. Hes. Really good

[@Hewylewis]

I still ship Bruce with Selina. Sorry.

[@StarKaiser2]

Same

[@notliked42210]

Who doesn't

[@StarfireKoriandr11]

​@@notliked42210 me. I don't. I ship Bruce with Diana

[@notliked42210]

@@StarfireKoriandr11 that's my second choice

[@aerickmon3350]

I think having her be the most involved in all aspects of Batman’s life solidified her as such Talia doesn’t care about the Bruce side of Batman or the other members yet Selina has so many nice little moments where she’s like a mom to them and she goes and gets involved in the public matters with bruce

[@adrinocarvalo]

Hey man! Loving your chanel, we agree in lile 90% of stuff about DC, it's quite refreshing to see someone talking about this characters with actual knowledge of their nuance and character instead of just superficial movie expectations or just what they watched in cartoons or video games. Some people will just read this comics and explain it like it's events are historical facts instead of stories and your videos are always focused on character consistency and construction from a story perspective instead of so many other videos I've watched who would just mention Talia's rape as a matter of fact instead of the weird out of character thing it was. Anyway, loving your channel! (Just quick note, Morrison goes by neutral pronouns and not masculine ones)😊

[@TrueBlueMajikDewd]

Worst to me. Her dad is literally trying to groom them for the league of assassins. On top of that she is an assassin. She does not share Batman's preference for not killing by design. Catwoman you can at least see her change and evolve as a character. Taliah is just straight up toxic for Batman.

[@huntertezz]

They are both toxic. And Talia never used to agree with Ra's methods and always tried to break away and do better. Sadly when she did break away and started doing good her sister came along and tortured her until she went insane and evil.

[@tomodachiotaku8004]

Catwoman is also extremely toxic. I will never forget that she left him at the altar, a selfish whore, or when she decided to train criminals to be more efficient when stealing.

[@anotherrandomguy8871]

Same here. Catwoman isn’t some crazed murder, or a genocidal manic, or an assassin, etc, she mostly is just a theif that gets semi redeemed by Batman, so despite her selfishness at times, it feels more believable that Batman would date catwoman instead of any brutal criminal, like an assassin. Batman dating an assasain makes me think that Batman is a hypocrite.

[@ccelite3782]

If even Batman can get roofied, what hope do we have??

[@elmochomo8218]

Don’t worry no one wants to roofie you

[@selfimprovement5873]

No hope brother, we are all going to get roofied 😢

[@djshadow3260]

*Cough Cough Character assassination

[@camerondalton1495]

Never takes drinks from strangers.

[@Paradox-es3bl]

Are we genius handsome billionaires? Idk about you but I think I’m too ugly to get roofied. I wouldn’t worry.

[@cutekenny2772]

Bruce has to pay child support now

[@Riqo2Suave]

Talia and Anissa are alike in many ways where the morality of the heroes we follow is a foreign and alien concept to them, their entire life they were taught and shown that strength is the only right course of action, those w the power to rule have that birth right, it’s why things like sexual intimacy aren’t black and white w them, the men they crave are powerful and to them the act of procreation is another part of that power struggle, it’s no different than killing or assaulting which they both have 0 qualms about, when your entire culture is rooted in violence it makes sense sex isn’t where they’d draw the line in terms of getting what they want

[@killmonger5097]

Anissa is way better than Taila could ever be

[@Achieme]

4:08 now hear me this may sound bad.

[@cb-ev1tz]

I've only known Talia's appearances in the animated series so it's cool to find out that she had more nuance in the OG comic

[@jonnjones8263]

I'm torn between Tali & Catwoman because I love them both and they make for great love interests. If I were to give DC a new Universe I'd put him & Catwoman together but I would treat his previous relationship with Talia with respect. Make it clear that they had a loving relationship but she was died and left Damien with Bruce.

[@quentinjones6877]

That sounds better

[@susanstorm7910]

Ra’s al Ghul is the original catfish 4:17

[@JayLee1609]

Talia, my darling, Dc and its racist writers who ruin your character could never make me hate you and how good you could have been and is. Im still happy (happy is a big word) that lately they have been trying to make an effort with her character, mostly as a mother and hopefully next between her and bruce which I do believe in that one dream bruce had where all his loved ones were dead, her name was also on one of the gravestones. I dont mind her being a villain still, just with proper writing and tge original complexity of her morals I just think they could have done so much better and if i were to wish for things that would never happen, Id hope a whole series of issues on her past with her father and siblings, her relationship with bruce and her early thoughts on Damian.

[@kwayneboy1524]

Racism has nothing to do with this and you know it kid.

[@Dion1605x]

Actually, it‘s racist towards arabs and chinese people. You can read "Crusaders“ by Nikolas Jaspert and they wrote with every anti-arabic and chinese stereotype.

[@Paperbag24]

I love your videos keep it up man ❤

[@krono5el]

Ra's and Talia are my favorite Batsy villains since Neil Adams drew them to perfection back in the day. So when Talia ended up the mama of Batsys son was perfect for me : )

[@Dark.Wing.Venom.]

I hope Talia is not evil in DCU

[@FriendlyBatDoom]

Zatanna is Batman’s best love interest in my opinion.

[@abdinasirahmed4063]

Our

[@huntertezz]

Yes

[@RositaDepre]

Maybe I don't know enough about comics and I don't know if this is still canon, but didn't she erase his memories once with the whole Dr. Light thing?

[@samflood5631]

At least Zatanna didn’t drug Batman into sleeping with her or kill a woman Batman’s dating out of jealous rage. And as for Zatanna mind wiping him, the Justice League kinda bullied her into mind wiping both Batman and Dr. Light.

[@RositaDepre]

@@samflood5631 being the best of the worst is still bad, but idk

[@T3aseW1thease]

@MEnterprises01 you should make a video about Black cat she's also simular to talia in the way that marvel kind of ruined her but its also the misconception that she's just a toxic girl that only loves spider-man and while there partially true overtime she eventually came around to love both sides of spiderman but by the time she came around peter was already married to mj. plus she barely gets any adaptations most adaptations just have peter end up with mj which is getting really boring and repetive.

[@quentinjones6877]

Good idea

[@nadaalgh98]

ngl seeing ppl finally speak up abt the character assassination of talia al ghul is so... nice. it means smth to me bc ive been defending her since i found out about the bullshit retcon morrison had written (especially when you add in the layer of racism on this whole thing-dc fandom is just. eugh.) her continuous character assassination is the reason why i grew so tired of dc comics-they retconned/forgave harley quinn's past actions so quickly but never did that w talia... so seeing ppl finally realize that its bad & shes been character assassinated for 20+ years is just really nice. thx for making this video ❤

[@Mad.boi_-mcgee]

Another reason why I've always preferred Wonderbat, it always had him feel healthier spiritually

[@celestialsoldier622]

Wonderbat is only good in the cartoon. They have no chemistry in the Comics.

[@kingol4801]

@@celestialsoldier622 Agreed. Superman and Wonder Woman chemistry, however, is off the chart. I also agree that Barbara and Batman were better romantic duo in the end (killing Joke shipping)

[@linden6190]

@@kingol4801bro that’s actually crazy

[@celestialsoldier622]

@@kingol4801 Bro gonna sit here and ship Batgirl and Bruce and act lie he an't insane.

[@SudhishSP-h7k]

​@@kingol4801wonderbat is good because of both of their positions,like pairing wonder woman with superman is so plain,like ofc the 2 demigods are gonnalike each other.Plus i hste how they show clark flirting with wonder qoman while also dealing with louis.Wonderbat is intreasting becsuse its a demi god princess and a rich kid with issues

[@samsonjones9332]

Trying to say that Talia is his best love interest as if Catwoman doesn’t exist is CRAZYYYYY.

[@phillyman2837]

This upload is making me consider watching those DCAMU flicks again

[@wfjhDUI]

It's definitely one of those situations where trying to inject very mundane real world violence into a story that's primarily about fantasy adventuring will almost always go over poorly. The dissonance between serious and unserious is just too great.

[@Chriso22]

Wow i acutally didn't know this was tailas character im glad you made this video now i know what her character truly is and not misinformed.

[@benjaminrupe5930]

They've been trying to establish a romantic facet to Batman for decades and it always seems forced. His holy war against criminals casts a shadow over every relationship in his life. There's always a cost,and Batman is willing to sacrifice everything in pursuit of his war; a war that has no end. It's a part of the tragedy of Bruce Wayne.

[@anotherrandomguy8871]

It’s especially force too when the writers make Batman’s said love interest to be someone who IS a criminal themselves which Bruce is fully aware of. It then makes Batman look very inconsistent on his “war against crime”. It only works for Catwomen because at worst she’s a petty theif who doesn’t use extreme violence.

[@anotherrandomguy8871]

It doesn’t work for modern Talia, but even with Talia or Catwoman, you mean to tell me that Batman has feelings for a terrorist assasain cultist lady and a cat burglar lady, yet at the same exact time, Batman will beat down the nearest theif or murderer down the street and even place him underneerh the wheel of the Batmobile? At that point, it just looks as if the dude will give excuses so long as the criminal is feminine, attractive and passive towards him specifically. Or if your the Joker.

[@jim-bob3093]

Nocturna was my favorite Batman love interest and rogue. And they did the same thing to her, made her sa batwoman and sleep with her son-in-law. It was all super ew. Nocturna had the best love triangle. With Bruce having to pick between her and Catwoman. But the story legit asks real important questions which DC ignores later on. Questions like 'if you have a kid, that an important factor in choosing a partner'. Which is really cool cause Jason is Robin at the time and Nocturna legit wants to take up the role of his mother, while catwoman is anti kids and doesn't want the responsibility

[@alyssa500]

dude her death in arkham made me drop the controller 😭

[@qobikwezi656]

Yeah

[@qobikwezi656]

And Batman was more affected by Joker’s death than hers. Carrying his body and ish…that pissed me off so much

[@dominiqueodom3099]

I never liked Talia after how she was turned so evil during the Batman Inc saga and how she treated Damian's Clone. Which sucks because one aspect I find legitimately interesting is her being responsible in some iterations for Jason Todds Ressurection and return with the words "You are Unavenged"

[@BlackTGambit]

What’s really criminal is they got rid of her accent is some versions

[@NisarKhan-jm1uh]

Yeah. Her accent in some iterations was so beautiful.

[@Skaramine]

I remember back in Detective 527, All My Enemies Against Me, Talia and Catwoman had a fantastic chemistry and rivalry even as they teamed with Batman against his Rogues Gallery. And maybe they can fix it so that Damien was conceived in a Son of the Demon retelling.

[@JokerREAL123]

I like Talia and Bruce Or Bruce and Selina way more then Diana and Bruce. They are a way better love for him.

[@annymora-rq6vi]

@@JokerREAL123 Yes old, but it was a time when both were well written, hey nowadays they are crazy, toxic and yes it is sad how they destroyed it

[@annymora-rq6vi]

Yes old, but it was a time when both were well written, hey nowadays they are crazy, toxic and yes it is sad how they destroyed it

[@hatandbeardmedia5925]

I've always found it hard to connect with Talia and I think it's because her characterisation is never consistent. I think DC need to really put their foot down and lay out a plan for the character - same with poor old Jason Todd. Talia is far more interesting when she's helping Bruce than when she's a flat out villain.

[@Kulykill]

I don’t really mind the retcon, what bothers me is the execution. We never get to see Batman process it properly. You think a guy who lost his parents when he was 8 dressing up as a bat as an adult would struggle to overcome the trauma of being raped and having a kid. But nope, he treats it like it was a regrettable one night stand😭. There’s repressed trauma and then there’s not even showing it character isn’t phased by it.

[@imed-ha77]

They literally made Batman a simp for Catwoman and in every comic book and every movie you find him chasing her and then he becomes stupid and his mind stops working and he gets hit. and holds back and then lets her escape and this thing is repeated over and over again, Batman is on him To find true love and leave criminals aside, maybe Zatanna or Wonder Woman would be a good choice for him😅

[@JokerREAL123]

Eh, I still like BatCat. That’s just my opinion. And even then, Some Versions of Catwoman stays with Bruce to the end.

[@anotherrandomguy8871]

Logically, the smartest choice would be Wonder Woman, yes. I never really liked WW x Batman, but at the same time, WW is a genuine superhero. For some reason, all of Batman’s love interest are either villians or morally dubious. Cat woman is at least someone who isn’t a very bad person though. Otherwise it’s kinda weird that Batman will date criminals. It’s like a cop sleeping with multiple criminals, despite vowing a “war against crime” and to always stop criminals and wrong-doers.

[@TorchlightCinema80]

My introduction to Talia was the grant Morrison run where she fucking roofied Batman so I straight up didn’t know she was an anti-villain at one point

[@will_sketch]

Ra's: "The only woman you've ever loved" Selina: "Boy bye!"

[@topcatfan]

The thumbnail reminds me of THAT uhyeah video

[@jaredgarcia8638]

Its moments like this on why i champion normal women like vicki vale

[@nataliawashington872]

3:49 my fav part about this episode 😂even tho it isn’t shown, when Talia appears she got Bruce all kinds of flustered and it is SO CUTE 🥰 and you can tell this is the first time Bruce is like that because Dick is like “wth happened between y’all? Who is SHE! And how she got you acting like this?!”

[@CNTconnoisseur]

I've always wanted to dig in to those old Dennis O'Neal stories. It's pronounced "Denny," btw.

[@superstarultra28]

She's the daughter of an immortal madman. I think you're giving her far too much credit.

[@vortechx7176]

and she's fully on board with his quest to cleanse the earth of people. he's giving her way to much credit.

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

Still could be written better though

[@Rengokuo4o6]

@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp True but having her in constant dilemma gets annoying pretty quickly.

[@billyboleson2830]

⁠​⁠ “o I love you father but I also love Batman what ever do I do” rince repeat. Ra’s has gotta be the most forgiving father on the planet for how repetitive she is

[@starsofnysar]

its like you ignored the entire video.... how many characters have evil fathers but have more moral codes

[@Tekirai]

I hated what they did to Talia, like they were star crossed lovers in their will they/wont they. But the love was strong enough to copulate

[@mikhaelgribkov4117]

6:43 Nah, Origins is just plain better writing that in retrospect puts in perspective how Paul Dini writing quality dropped and how a lot of mindset of "hype moments, shit character use" in the making of Suicide Squad game was present through out the series. Ra's and Strange were done so dirty and Scarecrow use in Knight is sad while Batman is fluctuates from being the most basic protagonist who does stupid shit and learns nothing about cooperation, and actually great use of Kevin Conroy talent (RIP the GOAT, people took him for granted).

[@kwayneboy1524]

I think City is still great despite the flaws and while Ra's and Hugo were great villains I think the final Battle dipped.

[@shin_a]

و اخيرا في حدا عم يدافع عنها. عن جاد تاليا كثير ما بيفهموها و بغيرو حكيتها. شكرا

[@AlanNoMoney]

They push the catwoman Batman relationship so writers don’t know what to do with her besides make her evil

[@EdenHellCipher]

7:10 She walks in there with two Bat Men and Batman’s like, “Really? Little on the nose, Talia.”

[@queerios1077]

A lot of times I hear people saying that Talia is “too deep in her father’s beliefs” that she’d never disobey him when that’s not true. In Batman Chronicles #8 she disobeyed her father because she wasn’t able to kill Batman. And in Red Hood: Lost Days she disobeyed her father and saved Jason by putting him in the Lazarus pit as a last resort.

[@MinorityGamerReport]

Talia actually first became evil in the comics (prior to Morrison’s run) due to Nyssa (her sister) murdering her over and over and bringing her back until she went crazy/turned evil during the Death of the Maidens storyarc in 2003. Morrison basically just expanded off of that afterwards. Lots of people blame Morrison for turning Talia evil, but she became that way years prior to him taking over Batman.

[@AlcoraoValdemarAlbertoSantos.]

Morrison himself admits that he screwed up the character.

[@mr.protagonist5639]

You know comics have a very bad character assassination problem. I mean we have Tahlia R.p batman, scott summers and how he handled Madelyn, we have literally everyone involved in one more day, wally west killing a bunch of heroes, ant man and his backhand. Thats just off the top of my head.

[@redrevanantarcdemon441]

I honestly think neither Catwoman or Talia suits for batman's love interest. The only suitable love interest for Batman is Julie Madison.

[@dohavename6775]

Since when does this relationship based on negligent s3x and cheap adventurous thrills is considered the best endgame? 😅 I mean, even w/o the retcon, this description fits literally both BruTal and BatCat, and does nothing for Batman as a character. Both of these women are bad for him. Zatanna or Wonder Woman on the other hand fit the better outcome for everyone involved. In DCAU we also have Andrea, and they were great together, too. For once Bruce in relationship w/ a woman who gave him the taste of his own character. Sadly, nothing but bad luck there.

[@huntertezz]

Yep, Zatanna would even be good for the family. Damian is gonna need a magic mentor eventually.

[@anotherrandomguy8871]

Batman being shipped with violent criminals like assassins just because he had sex with them, does kinda make him seem like a hypocrite anyways and won’t help his character much.

[@amirsteez05]

She was also in CWs Arrow. She helped train Oliver. She wasn't as bad as in TDK rises but she wasn't too good either.

[@huntertezz]

In the comics Nyssa was the reason Talia went evil. She tortured and killed Talia until she went insane.