MHMD [05] 7th century proof that Muhammad may have been Jesus!

[@cherokeegypsy2617]

Prayers uplifted over our dear sister Hatun… in Jesus’ mighty name! ✝️ Thank you and bless you for your ministry

[@rittas7722]

. ✝️ @ AMEN ✨🙏🤲👏

[@ohmymcmc]

What's happened?

[@20july1944]

@@ohmymcmc She's been incommunicado or missing for two weeks. It is reason for deep concern

[@magatism]

Just Israeli-Hamas war narrative. Hatun could have become the patsy.

[@aldonemra2386]

That is very disturbing…

[@JohnDowFirst]

Mel, your work is excellent. Thank you for your work, along with colleagues, in removing the accumulated dust of centuries and uncovering the truth. We are beginning to see what happened historically.

[@IslamicOrigins]

Thank you, you are very kind.

[@clevelandwilliams5922]

We are Maronite Catholics and my Father told me a Lebanese Maronite tradition where Monks of Maronite Parish and Muawiyah communicated with one another. There were treaties signed and currency was paid. My Father told me it was this aspect that built respect, tolerance & most of all integration of cultures between Arab Muslim & Christian’s of Levant. Something all Muslim World despise and don’t understand.

[@mcw0261]

The Muslims always loved monastic versions of Christianity, it's all through their quran...because of that very fact-- they (monks) were peaceful and isolationist and were likely not very evangelistic. But Islam is the work of the anti-christ and God will use the Quran to judge each believing Muslim on judgement day.

[@alonzoharris326]

Who commanded numbers 31:17?

[@Thor-Orion]

I’d love to learn more about your religion, it’s always really interested me, do you guys have any unique traditions relating to John the Baptist or James the Just? I’m like big into learning about those two men specifically because I think Jesus was pretty close with both of those guys during His “human” life, and with your proximity to where He lived I’ve wondered if there was any unique traditions in the Maronite faith about them. God bless!

[@vicmath1005]

@@Thor-Orion What part of Bakistan are you from?

[@Thor-Orion]

@@vicmath1005 I’m not from Pakistan.

[@The_Zilli]

I recently prayed for knowledge to fight against the Lord's adversary and the next day one of your videos gets suggested to me by "KZbin". Thank you for providing that wisdom and thank the Lord for guiding me to it.

[@IslamicOrigins]

May the Lord who has guided you, bless you with courage and fortitude! Hope it will help to untangle the enemy's snares.

[@Thor-Orion]

The great Crusades of our time are philosophical and spiritual in nature. Take care out there, God bless!

[@20july1944]

I generally agree with your alternative origin narratives but I think this is a serious breakthrough on what happened, and Jerusalem being too holy to be a political capital is very believable.

[@mysotiras21]

Brilliant sleuthing. NO Islamic prophet named Muhammad existed in the 7th century. Ditto for his family and companions. Muawiya was a real person, but all the historical data indicate that he was a Christian rather than a Muslim. Another hammer blow to the SIN. Keep up the good work.

[@twnb7733]

No mention of an Arabic Prophet named Muhammad from Ismael in the Quran. No Mecca, no black stone, no Palestinian. Nothing! Islam doesn’t exist, only by the Hadiths, outside the Quran.

[@veritasardens6547]

It actually makes sense to say that the praised one "Muhammad" actually refers to Jesus at least going by by the meaning of the name and to understand why Muawiya would move his throne to Damascus instead of ruling from Jerusalem because even in the book of Revelation, we read that Jesus would come back to Jerusalem and rule the nations from there. One of Jesus' titles in the New Testament is the Son of David (Ben David) because He is a descendant of David from Mary's side of the family, so if Muawiya decided to rule over his kingdom from Jerusalem, it is pretty much like him calling himself the Messiah which would be blasphemous. The Son of David "Jesus" will reign from Jerusalem in the future and the Bible says that his throne is eternal because He alone deserves to do so.

[@alonzoharris326]

It makes sense?😂

[@arnfridureinarsdottir4022]

Muhammed have never existed. And to believe Jesus and he is the same is laughable.

[@arnfridureinarsdottir4022]

Jay Smith about Islam origins. kzbin.info/www/bejne/i2bGXpdnpbOhrNUsi=FjcxzXlVTQ-813so

[@alonzoharris326]

@@arnfridureinarsdottir4022 There is billion times more historical evidence for Mohamed than for Jesus and Paul combined.🤣 I’m not even talking about the OT prophets. I have a question for you. What did Jesus do in his first 28 years if his life? Can you tell me? How did he grow up? Did he have brothers and sisters? Who is the mother of Mary? Does Mary have brothers and sisters? How many?

[@garybowings1538]

​@@alonzoharris326"Baby Isa made birds out of clay that could ackshully fly. Just ask St. Thomas." - Alonzo Harris

[@josephmagil1149]

You men never cease to amaze me. This is exciting stuff. I look forward to each of your videos.

[@collybever]

An interesting source, have not heard of this one before, a Maronite chronicle written 664 AD touching on events in 660AD, when Mu'awiya as new Arab ruler went to Jerusalem. In the SIN he became caliph after the first 4 caliphs, who were alleged to be Mohammed's companions, but evidence for them in the 7C accounts seems sparse, am I correct? But it shows he rather than a 9C style muslim was likely a christian of some form, in going to Jerusalem, praying at Golgotha, visiting Gethsemane and again praying at Mary's tomb. This affirms coins that show him with crosses, and the cross mark on the Greek language rock inscription, other pointers to this very high likelihood position. So MHMD in this chronicle is more likely to be referring to Jesus, this seems likely, although not so strong as Mu'awiya's christian affiliation.

[@clevelandwilliams5922]

Al Muhammad Syed Imam Ali is a title meaning The Most Praised Lord of the Most High. This reference to Jesus Christ. Shia Muslims means Followers and Submitting to Ali. Ali was Jesus Christ if you look at photos many Shia Muslims in Levant have pictures of Mary and Ali together. What Muslims did was remove mention of Jesus. Secondly the passage in Old Testament shows the method of prayer Muslims perform is actually biblical in nature; Joshua 5:13-15 KJV [13] And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? [14] And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? [15] And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

[@mcw0261]

​@@clevelandwilliams5922Maybe Jesus was there to start in Islam, by the devil and the antichrist won in the end. They deny the salvation of Christ and try hard to replace Jesus with MHMD.

[@alishaukat7046]

@@clevelandwilliams5922 thats why he's referred as the infallible imam. but what do you say about the war against muawia in siffin? and does this make imam hussain also a messiah?

[@simonhengle8316]

Brilliant Mel, great research and thank you Dr. J. Smith for presenting the video on your channel.

[@IslamicOrigins]

Just to be clear, I'm not necessarily saying Muawiya was an orthodox Christian, he could well have been a heretical Christian, or belonging to a hybrid sect.

[@danyelahtabaat4808]

Nestorian

[@alonzoharris326]

Go back to school

[@leedza]

However, looks like the church on Golgotha is an important Orthodox site.

[@TingTong2568]

@@alonzoharris326 go back to mecca

[@marktwain8121]

​@@danyelahtabaat4808Nestorian or miaphisite .

[@ohmymcmc]

Another great episode 👏 😊

[@k3D4rsi554maq]

Indeed!

[@julioquirino2131]

The throne of Mahmed seems to be a reference to Jesus being the King of the Jews. So it makes sense that Muawiya made his throne in Damascus as the king of the Arabs

[@allebasi66]

So there was Mohammed 1 and 2.

[@vicmath1005]

The Nazarenes (i.e Phase I Mus1ims) always considered Jesus as the King of Jews. Christians inherited this from the Nazarenes. Damascus was arguably the second most important city for the Nazarenes - where Yahya (John the Baptist), the cousin of Jesus, was murdered by the ruler. It was the death of John the Baptist that almost certainly instigated the mission of Jesus - with his arrival from Petra to Jerusalem on a donkey. With the Abbasids began the Phase II of 1slam. In this phase, the Nazarene clergy were completely dismissed, and all the tax (zakat) collection came into the hands of the ruling Abbasids. Tax collection until that time was done by the Nazarene clergy - the writers of qur-an.

[@Thor-Orion]

@@vicmath1005so Nazarene specifically refers to Numbers 6:1-21 and many Essenes took the Nazarite/Nazarene vow. John definitely was a Nazarene and so was James the Just. There was also a heavy Thomasine tradition in Syria, and Thomas was Judah Thaddeus’ Aramaic second name, he was Judah Thomas in Aramaic and Judah Thaddeus in Greek. Jesus, John, James and Judah (the J boys!) together formed a close knit family network that after John’s death aided Jesus in his ministry extensively. Specifically Jesus sent Judah to Edessa to heal Abgar V. I think you’re right about what you’re saying and I think a big part of the Abbasids plan was to produce much more tax revenue through the Jizya practice. What do you think about that?

[@Thor-Orion]

@@allebasi66possibly even more than that, that there was Muhammad the title for Jesus and Muhammad the false profit figure. The Abbasids actually heavily weakened the Islamic world because of their grudge against the Umayyads. Not that I have any love lost for the Umayyads because I’m a goth of high birth and thus I know the stories of how the Umayyads were gross slavers and child traffickers.

[@Thor-Orion]

Abgar V was friendly with Jesus. He was an arab king of Osorene who ruled from Edessa and converted to Judaism after Jesus sent Judah Thaddeus to him to heal him.

[@valeriesotiropoulos9720]

💕🇬🇧 hope Hatun ok she gone missing for 2 weeks so please pray for her 🙏✝️🇬🇧

[@wishingb5859]

It makes such sense that I don't understand why it has taken this long for someone to point this out.

[@IslamicOrigins]

An awful lot is hidden away in acdemic papers gathering dust, often hidden amongst voluminous text.

[@jdschauss]

Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. The pure simplicity of Mel's assertions just makes sense. The mental gymnastics associated with believing the SIN is just too much - it's inherently ILLOGICAL in its entirety.

[@Thor-Orion]

@@jdschaussit’s not just illogical, it’s anathema to logical reasoning.

[@xavierbesnard9201]

De plus en plus fort. De plus en plus évident . Excellent travail !

[@IslamicOrigins]

Merci beaucoup!

[@BijoyP-h2l]

So far I have studied, this is 100 per cent true.No doubt. Let the Muslims be conscious of the matter.

[@graceland395]

IMO Muawiyya did not want to set up his throne on Golgotha because it's Jesus throne. Since he was Christian, he must believe that Jesus remains King for ever. Since there can't be 2 kings in a domain, he moved his own throne to Damascus.

[@Thor-Orion]

That’s exactly right, it’s why the first rulers of the Crusader states all took titles like Prince and Count and Duke and Baron. Haha It’s also why Theodoric the Great even after getting the Regalia for the Western Roman Emperor only referred to himself as Rex Goth and not Western Roman Emperor, he considered Jesus to be the rightful emperor of all of the domains of earth and thus took the title of King of his own people, the Goths, as Jesus’ emissary to his people. There are a great many rulers throughout history who have done similar things with their official titles.

[@galicanogopez3130]

Thank you Dr. Jay! Very informative and factual

[@migueliteux5061]

Both S. D. Goitein and Oleg Grabar proposed both an earlier date and attributed at least the initiation of the Dome of the Rock’s construction to Mu‘awiya. I would think that throne of MHD might be the Temple Mount where he started the construction and also the fact that the Armenian chronicle references him praying at Golgotha by name and would seem to undercut the idea that the throne of MHD is the same place by another name. It’s also neat that they mentioned him visiting both Gethsemini and the tomb of Mary since they are Holy sites in such close proximity to each other.

[@IslamicOrigins]

Misnomer to call what Muawiya built a "Dome" of the Rock. Arculf gives us this: "In that famous place where once stood the magnificently constructed Temple, near the eastern wall, the Saracens now frequent a rectangular [quadrangulam, i.e. square] house of prayer which they have built in a crude manner, constructing it from raised planks and large beams over some remains of ruins. This house can, as it is said, accommodate at least 3000 people." Arculf’s text makes no hint at the construction or existence of the dome. What was there was not an initiation of a Dome, but another building prior to whatever Abd al-Malik built, but there is no witness to a Dome until 897AD, ie Ya’qubi.

[@migueliteux5061]

@@IslamicOrigins the building you are referring to was next to the eastern wall. More recent scholarship proposed that the first mosque of Jerusalem said to have been destroyed survives today in the structure called the Marwani Musalla, traditionally called al-masjid al-qadim (the old mosque), and later erroneously referred to as Solomon’s Stables. The survival of the mosque built of ruins on ruins establishes it as the oldest surviving Islamic monument in the city. At the same time, the city walls, Triple and Double gates were rebuilt, the Golden Gate added to and a new Single Gate built by Mu‘awiya. The dome was initiated by Mu’awiya because he had the longest tenure as commander of the faithful in the city and Al Malik did not have the time between 685 and 691 to complete the building as is stated in the Kufic inscription on the interior arcade of the structure.

[@migueliteux5061]

I remember reading in a paper about spolia used in the buildings on the Temple Mount that the Dome of the Chain possibly served in a function as a type of throne room where a Sassanid crown was suspended by a chain which provided the namesake for the building. Thus, Mu‘awiya’s construction in the area cleared by the jinn (mentioned by Christian sources in this time) of a small eleven-sided structure on the edge of the bedrock was a jewel- encrusted structure decorated with mosaics and embellished by the spolia of the past. It could be interpreted as a mihrab or sanctuary space reserved for the ruler. It would have included a throne in the niche of the south side of the Dome of the Chain reflecting Solomon’s throne. A chain silsila would have been suspended over his head in a niche that represented both Davidian and Solomonic justice but also was tied to the divine kingship of the Sasanian kings and the Rashidun first conquest of the Sasanian Empire at the Battle of Salasil. Was the Sasanian crown attached to that chain and suspended above Mu‘awiya’s head as the unifier of the Byzantine and Sasanian empires under Umayyad sovereignty?

[@chrisazure1624]

Seems really strange to visit those sites that conflict with Islam. More and more we see the SIN does not add up.

[@orunabho]

Maybe that early in 7th century, the notions of christians and Muslims were ill defined and fluid. Only that some body removed all references to cross & trinity and invented a book called Quran.

[@MBiernat0711]

Yes they were fluid - and yes the Quran in today’s version is a late 7th century edition. So there may have been more references to crucifixion in the earlier recitations. It could be - but unless we find an actual pre abd al Malik Quran copy - that is just a guess

[@julietabraham476]

Awesome work as usual.God bless you brethren.

[@Hasan.ibn.Ali.]

Can you please make a video on "TREATY OF HUDAYBIYYAH" and how it relates to modern day peace treaty ( taqqiya) made by Arab countries.

[@kiranninansunny374]

hatun sister is missing from uk may god always with her .

[@garybowings1538]

Her sister too?

[@Serendipity818]

It would be great if you all could compile a video just with timeline and all evidence so it is easy to share in one video that would be amazing ❤GodBless

[@valentino3228]

Yes!!!

[@KingJehovah]

Very good material, but the title of this video ("7th century proof that Muhammad may have been Jesus!") can be a bit misleading. It should instead read "7th century proof that the name Muhammad was a reference to Jesus!"

[@GThomas-qq6mp]

It is so weird to come to an end place where everything spirals around a center through spirit. The ordinary man/women is guided towards a center where language tries to support the ideas and ways in the crux. The logos propagates one's personal myth since the beginning at birth. Blessings ✝☦

[@BijoyP-h2l]

This material should be used in our seminars

[@johnproffitt3199]

Love you guys, such beautiful knowledge, God bless you all

[@leedza]

He has a cross and an orb. After watching King Charles' coronation you realise that is important Christian symbology.

[@MHLitu]

😢Stay with peace and Truth. Perfect Believer's will be winner.

[@Louis2decaro]

Hi Dr Jay, I’m wondering, if Mu’awiya and possibly others in his dynasty were heretical christians, then who initiated the Islam invention?

[@BerraLilltroll]

Abbasids about 750.

[@kilianklaiber6367]

Great Episode, yes I agree with Mel.

[@christophergame7977]

What are the details of the historical facts as distinct from the customary narrative about the four rightly guided caliphs?What are the details of the historical facts as distinct from the customary narrative about the four rightly guided caliphs?

[@wisdomubaka643]

I do wish there would be link to some resources Dr Jay, i really need some of these to build my own resource to use in evangelism.

[@orunabho]

Arabic version of Christianity i guess. But then what is Quran and it violent verses, which are quite unchristian like?

[@carolgebert7833]

Inserted later to justify bad behavior of the caliphs. The other two influences are Zoroastrianism and Manichaeism.

[@g.whenderson6481]

Does anyone know what happened to Hatun?

[@pfanderfilms]

No, please pray for her as she has been missing for 9 days now and we still have no word on her whereabouts.

[@g.whenderson6481]

Thank you and we will pray for her

[@rittas7722]

Many Muslim radicals hate Hatun very much. Let's pray for her. May God save her and protect her from the evil ones, ie the Moslem sthuph!i€d radicals.

[@mrsbmurray7402]

@@pfanderfilms On tonight’s live stream w DavidWood / RobertSpencer they mentioned her as well. Also read a post from TommyRobinson that he has put out an appeal for folks to share any news w him. Praying for her safety. Many are aware, looking and praying.

[@vallieclay3041]

Make a police report.

[@changemaker4428]

your information is a bit confusing. Lets believe that Muabiyah was a Christian but he was a Nabatean Arab as well so he must hv a pagan background. So are u saying he got converted into Christianity? And why Jesus would be always referred as mhmd all the time? Why not Yashua?

[@carnivoreisvegan]

Did you watch the whole series so far? MHMD is being used as a title and not a name: the glorious one, the beautiful one, etc.

[@jeangatti9384]

Quran 101 in a nutshell ... The quran is originally (the so-called "meccan" surahs) a christian preaching book used by the anti-trinitarian jewish-christians called Nazarenes, they are called "nasara" (نَصَرَ) in the quran, while the trinitarian (orthodox byzantine) christians whom they fought and hated are called "mushrikuns" (مشركون) ie "associators" or "polytheists" because they associate Jesus to God (which is "shirk" شِرْك that opposes to Allah's unicity called "tawheed" تَوْحِيدُ )

[@Zebred2001]

A couple of things jump out from the Maronite Chronicle. Mu' awiya made these obviously Christian demonstrations in Jerusalem after he was crowned. This strongly suggests that the Arabs who put him on the throne were themselves Christian even if it wasn't a trinitarian form. His making Damascus his capitol was as much as being a strategic location for security reasons it was also to show he wasn't usurping Jesus' position. Again this would be expected and appreciated by his Christian Arab subjects.

[@mikenine1962]

Just one other point, the text that made no sense with Arabic dots, and then with Aramaic dots did make sense. I think was a deliberate change to attempt to hid the source of text being Christian, if they didn't do that it would have been destroyed.

[@elijahsanders3547]

Very intriguing :) I'm wondering what that first slide image came from, of The Crucifixion and Jesus' Blood falling onto one of the sides of The Mercy Seat of The Ark of The Covenant? Because Ron Wyatt claimed that's exactly where he found The Ark of The Covenant and what had happened when Jesus was pierced in His side.

[@jokountung7474]

What is your alternative history about Umayyad invasion into Iberia, are they Moslem, or Christian and if they Moslem, are they different from Middle East Moslem because of shift of power from Umayyad into Abbasid?

[@vironpayne3405]

Great scholarship!

[@saloanyousif3308]

A wonderful Video God bless you

[@starshipchris4518]

While I'm not convinced Muawiyah was a Christian, I absolutely agree that he was NOT a Muslim. I also agree that Jerusalem was more important, if not the most important, site for the Arabs. For argument's sake, how would you answer the idea that Muawiyah was just being politically savvy to placate his Christian subjects? I don't recall a source mentioning him attending liturgy at the Holy Sepluchre or in Damascus. There's also the story of him attempting to remove crosses from the coinage, but his subjects rejecting it (the source escapes me). Always enjoy Mel's work.

[@jdschauss]

Charles is a Christian king in that he rules a Christian nation full of Christian subjects, yet he does not live the life of a believer and his kingdom is also populated with many pagans. I suspect it was similar with Mu'awiya. He ruled a Christian kingdom as a Christian, even though he personally may not have actually been a believer.

[@leedza]

Have a look on the Wikipedia page for the Church of the Holy Sepulchre which i assume is the Golgotha reference. There is an account and reference in the bibliography of Umar visiting the church which is worthy of a scholars review to see were it leads. Also notice, the historic drawings of the 4th century Church have a strong resemblance to a well known mosque note too far by.

[@lanthenat]

I'm confused. Who were the Saracens? Why did that take Jerusalem? Sophronius the Patriarch of Jerusalem didm't respond to them as if they were Christians.

[@MBiernat0711]

“Saracenes” were how the early Muslims were called by the Christians. In the first few centuries of Christianity- the different Christian groups fought with each other often and were not always friendly toward each other. It is like in today’s Islam - the Shia and Sunni both think themselves heretics. Similarity - the more established Christian groups would think the “Saracenes” as infidels - although sometimes they would say “their beliefs are not that different from ours”.

[@simonhengle8316]

Patiently waiting for No.6

[@foundthetruth2003]

Well done Mel, great to see Islam being dismantled.

[@IslamicOrigins]

Inch by inch, row by row. :)

[@orunabho]

Are muslims more of a Jewish tradition, arabic version, than Christians? Praying 5 times a day towards a city is very unchristian like but Jewsih. So is the notion of Halal or Kosher food. So, is the avoidance or pork. Maybe Judaism had many versions, archaic ones all ovwr the place - beyond the Rabbinical Judaism. So, the children os Ismael, Arabs considered themselves. Sort of ethno religious cult. During that Umayyad era, Arab muslims did not accepted any non arab convert as their own viciously. Maybe we should check with Assyrian Christianity and see if islam is closer to it also.

[@Basaljet]

Praying Five times a day is "Unchristian"? Check the monastic offices based on Psalms 119:164-165. Assyrian Christians prayed with their heads to the ground. They did not keep the kosher food laws although across in Ethiopia that was bisected from Christianity elsewhere by the incursion of Islam in North Africa they did and still do. We know a great deal about Assyrian Christianity

[@orunabho]

@@Basaljet thanks. Is their Bible same as the king James version? Do they also consider Jewish Bible their Bible or just the gospels.

[@Basaljet]

@@orunabho In the first Four centuries they popularly used Tatian's Daitessaron (a 2ndC synthesis of the familiar four into a single narrative) in place of the Gospels. Bishop Rabulla 411-435 convened a council at Cstesiphon which regularised the four gospels for liturgical use but adopted a "Nestorian" - "Diophysite" "Non-Chalcedonian" definition of the incarnation. This was largely becuase Nestorius had been banished to Persia (but in his later life he is said to have conceded the Chalcedonian definition). the Church in Syria needed to distance itself from the "Roman/Byzantine" church for political expediency in a predominantly Zoroastrian and variously hostile Persian culture. The Diatessaron (not unorthodox or heretical but irregular with pronounced indications of ascetic practices for all christians) must have remained in existence for many years. I have speculated that this is what caused the islamic accusation that Christians had "Changed" the scripture. The Syriac "Aramaic Bible is called the Peshitta. I usually includes the same "Catholic Canon" and has some interesting textual variants mainly to do with language. eg it is hard to "Get a ROPE through the eye of a needle" which makes rather more sense than a camel!

[@briankgarland]

Has this Maronite Chronicle been validated in any way? Because I assume Muslims would dismiss it as just some forgery or work of fiction.

[@UberBri]

I'm curious if the origins of Islam was a religious collective of monotheist between Jews, Christians, and Arabs...then later started persecuting the Jews and Christians.

[@IslamicOrigins]

Broadly speaking, something on those lines occurred, yes.

[@karenthompson1337]

Is the Maronite Chronicle still in existence and is carbon dated?

[@IslamicOrigins]

Hi Karen, I don't unfortunately remember reading anything on that. I don't know.

[@Hazrat-e-Insaan]

Great stuff👍 1. Is it possible Muhammad as a person/prophet or king belonged to Jerusalem not in macca or Madina in 7th century? 2. In Chronicles, it also mentioned that Maaviya also eliminate the cross from coins but it was not largely accept by people. How you take it?

[@allebasi66]

It seems that Muawia was no muslim.

[@seanvogel8067]

What about the Davidic throne?

[@Bananas331]

Different topic but is Hatun ok? apparently she’s been missing for two weeks now.

[@vicmath1005]

"Sitting down on Golgotha" "praying there" "going down to the tomb of the blassed Virgin to pray in it" is not expected of the Phase II Mus1ims (i.e. Abbasid Mus1ims). But it would have been perfectly normal for the Phase I Mus1ims (i.e. Nazarenes). All the early "Christian" structures in Judaea that Christians inherited after perhaps the second century CE, were in fact the Nazarene structures. Nazarenes lived in Judaea in the first century CE, while Christians did not. Christianity developed in Antioch, a fair distance away from Judaea. 'Umar ibn al-Khattab (the Nazarene commander of the faithful) came to the Church of Holy Sepulchre but allowed the Christians to continue to use the place because they preserved what was a Nazarene structure. Same thing with the High church of John the Baptist (later Umayyad Mosque) in Damascus. For some time (under the Nazarene Umayyads) it served as the assembly/prayer place for both the Christians and Nazarenes. Much much later the Phase II Mus1ims made it a Mus1im-only place.

[@IslamicOrigins]

"Nazarenes lived in Judaea in the first century CE, while Christians did not." You have fallen in my estimation, hugely. How can you make such an ahistorical claim?

[@vicmath1005]

@@IslamicOrigins The disciples of Jesus were not Christian. Paul of Tarsus, based in Antioch, visited them a couple of times. But the disciples based in Jerusalem were Nazarene and strictly followed the old Levite ways. Like Jesus, they were Levite, and not from the tribe of David. There is absolutely no evidence that Christians lived in Judaea in the first century. Sadly Christians have misappropriated the Nazarene faith/culture as Christian.

[@RedWolf75]

​@@vicmath1005 You are talking nonsense.

[@vicmath1005]

@@RedWolf75 Which part is nonsense? That the Nazarenes lived in Judaea or that Christians established themselves in Antioch?

[@jorgegoncalves7295]

Nonsense!!!!​@@vicmath1005

[@The_Green_Man_OAP]

I'm guessing that she made them an offer they could not refuse... 🤔 Mavia (Arabic: ماوية, Māwiyya; also transliterated Mawia, Mawai, or Mawaiy, and sometimes referred to as Mania or Mavia of Tanukh) was an Arab queen, who ruled over the Tanukhids, a confederation of semi-nomadic Arabs, in southern Syria, in the latter half of the fourth century. She led her troops in a rebellion against late Roman rule, riding at the head of her army into Phoenicia and Palestine. After she reached the frontiers of Egypt and repeatedly defeated the Roman army, the Romans finally made a truce with her on conditions she stipulated. Following her victory, Mavia was powerful enough to be able to dictate the terms of negotiations. _She demanded that a certain orthodox Christian monk, Moses, be named as bishop over her people._ 🤔 The Romans later called upon her for assistance when being attacked by the Goths, to which she responded by sending a force of cavalry.

[@alishaukat7046]

i have one question. why did sin converted muawia into muslim, off all the christiann leaders at that time place? why not heraclius?

[@IslamicOrigins]

Was Heraclius an Arab?

[@raenamet1128]

Perhaps a counterfeit Jesus or more aptly called an Anti-Christ... But your explanation does shed light on why they have so many references to Jewish and Christian scriptures... It is a long held believe they used these references to claim we worship the same God despite the evidence that we do not...

[@RannChandiBhakt]

Jay, all of this makes sense. I just have couple of unanswered questions, maybe you can help me here: 1. What about the mosques built in the 7th century? We’re they churches or mosques? What was their original intention? Some say they are in far off places like China and India. 2. If they had to make a story of the man then why such a bad one with child marriages, so many loots, killings, all sorts of nonsense. They could have made a better story?

[@carnivoreisvegan]

Start from MHMD part 1. He explains they were copies of Byzantine churches..

[@k3D4rsi554maq]

So, what were the Abbasids?

[@collybever]

That was a later Arab ruling dynasty beginning about a century later, in about 750 AD. The biographies of Mohammed start to appear then, as do hadith collections (hadiths). In rock inscriptions Mohammed as referred to as a prophet only seem to appear in the 720s, fishy at the least. So it may be that MHMD was indeed originally a reference to Jesus, who is genuinely praise-worthy.

[@alonzoharris326]

@@collybever Do you really believe that fringe non academic theory?

[@k3D4rsi554maq]

Yeah, but were they practicing Muslims?

[@garybowings1538]

​@alonzoharris326 "I am worried about Allaah. Nobody knows his location. We haven't seen him. Please someone call police. Amyn." - Alonzo Harris

[@britanikothegreat8513]

GENESIS 12:1-3. GALATIANS 4:22-23. GALATIANS 4:1-6. PROVERB 30:4?!.6. PHILIPPIANS 2:6-7. ISAIAH 28:9?!. HEBREW 5:13. JOHN 3:13-16. HEBREW 10:28. HEBREO 4:12. DO NOT COMPLAIN OR CLAIM LIKE JESUS OR EMMANUEL. ISAIAH 7:14. MATTHEW 27:46. JOHN 10:30. JOHN 14:6? PSALMS 22:1-20!!! 21!!! PHILIPPIANS 2:8. JOHN 19:28-30. HEBREW 9:27. 2CORINTHIANS 5:10. 2CHRONICLES 7:14.

[@harshakanavi7841]

Who was Jacob, Sir??

[@MBiernat0711]

Yes of course the early “believers” were “Christian like” - in that they believed Jesus was the most important “Martyr” who died and resurrected “for the cause of Allah”. The early believers also thought that John the Baptist was a resurrected martyr. They believed that “Muhammad” is the warrior spirit of the “Jesus with the sword” - a Christian fantasy. They believed that the end of the days is near by, and Jesus-Muhammad would come very soon, to judge between the “believers” and “unbelievers” When that never materialized- the ideology was changed. A new system was created about 200 years after Hijra. We know this new system as the religion of Islam, today

[@astrogoodvibes6164]

When the Byzantine empire was showing cracks and the Arabs were exerting influence, the first iconoclasts started stripping churches of anything they considered to be idolatrous, including crosses. Could this have been the beginning of the anti crucifixion paradigm shift that entered into what became Islam in the 7th 8th and 9th centuries?

[@carolgebert7833]

I think the Abbasids were more deliberate than that. They wanted to distance themselves from the Umayyads. The Abbasids also were more Iranian and inherited both ideas and history that they wanted to imprint upon the empire. So they deliberately created a new synthesis of Nestorian Christianity, Manichaeism and Zoroastrianism with a new historical mythology. The Abbasids were also being pressured by the Jewish Khazars so they wanted to contrast themselves from Khazars, too.

[@Mcfads999]

Have you heard from Hatun ? X

[@matthewchrist5399]

The ark is much more a throne then most think. The angels are not on the top, but on the sites - one wing down and the other towards each other - like a chair.

[@carolgebert7833]

Could the proto-Muhammad actually be Mani?

[@leedza]

While im conviced, you need to do a digest of all the evidence in one place. Its an intriguing piece of investigative work but needs logic to put the arguments together. What about the line that said says when they he minted his coins they were refused because they didn't have a cross. So he had to remint them

[@IslamicOrigins]

The tax collectors on the major waterways - Euphrates, Tigris and canals, seaports - were Jews, who collected tolls on the trade for the Jewish Exilarch. The Jews were a huge population, 10% of the Byzantine Empire's population. I could imagine them not being crazy about the cross on coins. In these circumstances, I could well imagine a situation that he tried to make his money more neutral to appease them. This would not imply he was Muslim. It was just realpolitic in action.

[@leedza]

​​@@IslamicOriginsanother one for you Mel. Could it be when they say Golgotha they actually meant the Church of the Holy Sepulchre which is located on Golgotha and is an important monument for the Church even then. The source given on Wikipedia which supports the hypothesis is Kroesen, Justin (2000). The Sepulchrum Domini Through the Ages: Its Form and Function. Leuven. p. 11. ISBN 978-9042909526. Also note, the Wikipedia page sugar coates the account to distance Umar from Christianity as he apparently prayed there in accordance to the source above. I haven't checked it myself, will leave that to you guys.

[@allebasi66]

Mmmh, where did Abd al Malik came from ?

[@allebasi66]

Al Marwan which means from Merv

[@allebasi66]

Did he bring the Quran from Merv ?

[@IslamicOrigins]

It is unclear due to the ambiguity of his name. Ohlig would say Merv. I think his name might be just a reference to his political/religious link with mount Moriah in Jerusalem, he was a "Moriahan", someone dedicated to the Temple mount. Marwa is simply the Arabic form of Moriah. Might sound far fetched, but then his right hand man, Al Hajjaj, that's an Arabisation of Haggag, specifically a pilgrim to Jerusalem. Amongst Abd al Malik's coins are several with menorahs. These are lesser known but highly significant.

[@allebasi66]

@@IslamicOrigins In Bagdad wird der Islam zur WeltreligionAuf die Umayyaden folgen die Abbasiden als Kalifen, die Bagdad zur Hauptstadt des muslimischen Riesenreiches machen. Sie achten strenger auf die Einhaltung der religiösen Gesetze, führen feine höfische Formeln und Zeremonien ein. This says the Abbasides looked more for the following of religious traditions. Obviously there was a religious difference between Ummayades and Abbasides.

[@allebasi66]

@@IslamicOrigins muawia seems to have been forced to be a muslim. Once in rule maybe he changed when he met real Christians in Jerusalem . Then the arabic islam was restored by Abd al malik to restore arabic power and islam was forced on the people.

[@CandiceGoddard]

To be honest I find it all very confusing. I think the theory of Muhammad possibly being a Christian or leader of a Christianity based cult like Mormonism makes sense given the motifs on the coins and the plagiarism of the bible and various other Christian and Jewish literature in the Quran, however my issue with any theory regarding Islam's alternative history, is the very detailed, and less than flattering life story of Muhammad found in extra Quranic Islamic literature. How do we explain this? Is it fiction? If so what genre is it? And what exactly is the inspiration, Hinduism mixed with Greek myths?

[@IslamicOrigins]

That came a lot later. It isn't reliable, whatever the reason.

[@carolgebert7833]

Muhammad was invented partly to justify the bad behavior of the Abbasid caliphs. Caliph criticized for massacres against Jews? Nevermind, the prophet did it first. Caliph criticized for raping children? The prophet did it first. Caliph hates criticism? How lucky, the prophet banned poets and musicians. The other reason for Muhammad’s invention was to synthesize many swirling stories going back to the Sassanids and Mani, and give them a new, Arabic skeleton to hang on. I think Mecca was a new site of pilgrimage after the earthquake in Petra, and no-one remembered why anyone revered the black rock, so a story had to be invented to justify Mecca and the black rock.

[@RedWolf75]

​@IslamicOrigins Many Muslims sources claim Mu'iwiyah was a Christian. If you do a google search there are Islamic websites thst claim he was a Christian. The Ummayads are not viewed fondly by Muslims. Which tells me they may not have been Muslims. On another note there I have seen some Maronites claik Mu'iwiyah was one if them and that the Ummayads actually used to work for the Roman government before the Roman Sassanian war. Dont know if this isbtrue, you have both Muslims and Christians sating Mu'iwiyah was not a Muslim.

[@gavinwillis8247]

so the koran was right the torah and bible did mention ahmed it just mhmd aka jesus again. strange how they keep misinterpreting arabic. Guess there are to many meanings to the arabic

[@kaneinkansas]

The question is, did the Ummayad Empire exist, from Morroco & Spain all the way to China - and what caused this empire to come into being and overwrite Byzantium in Syria, Palestine, Lebannon, Egypt and Libya (before going further West), and Sassanian Persian empire. What caused the Arabs to suddenly coalesce. The Traditional Islam Narrative has a plausible explanation but it famously has a lot of holes in it. How did Islam go from being non-trinitarian Christianity to a very distinct religion all together and what role did that play in causing the Arabs to coalesce? There is evidence of climate induced famine starting around 535 due to volcanoes in Iceland spewing ash into the atmosphere and keeping the climate too cold. Maybe this famine forced rats and other vermin to live more closely to humans, but roughly around this time you had bubonic plague in all of the metropolitan areas of the Eastern Roman Empire. The Eastern Empire survived the fall of Rome, probably because its economy was stronger, probably because of the trade in luxury goods from the east: aromatics, textiles (silk from China, cotton from India) and spices, among other things. (In Western Rome, all of the specie had been concentrated in the hands of a few very rich people - see Nobel Laureate Douglass C. North's "Structure and Change in Economic History" pages 100-115 on the fall of Rome.) So trade in the west collapsed due to a lack of specie (gold coins, because the rich got richer, ie. got all the gold - but the rich would still have to use those gold coins to buy luxury items from the East, which kept that trade going and the flow and circulation of money in the east to sustain the Empire there as well as its economy). Famine and plague then undermined the viability of the metropolitan Empires (Byzantium and Sassanian Persia) but it would have little effect upon the Arabs, especially the Bedouins. One thing the Standard Islamic Narratives seems to get correct is the habit of Arabs living in towns placing their children as enfants, in the custody of Bedouins. The reason is obvious - the bedouins were less susseptible to bubonic plague and so both townspeople and bedouins alike would have noticed that children in the care of bedouins were much more likely to survive infancy than those in town or other high density situations. So, was the famine & plague, by themselves enough to tilt the balance away from both Byzantium AND Sassanian Persia? But the question is, what caused the cohesion of the Arabs? And what lead to Islam's emergence ? You can't say its all Abbasid invention because it was still being practiced in Spain and Morocco - two areas not conquered by the Abbasids - ever.

[@--MattBlack--]

I wonder what lore about muhammad went round that inspired early sufis. I guess there was no canonized Islamic scripture like the biography of muhammad. I could never understand sufism and the morality of muhammad from the hadiths and the sirah

[@BikerswithBibles]

When Jesus come back he will rule from the third temple on the temple mount so that's where the mercy seat will be.

[@JungleJargon]

Mohammed was not Jesus but the study of the shapeshifter Muhammad is very interesting.

[@IslamicOrigins]

Unfortunately, it isn't my argument, the term mhmd, which I pronounce as Mahmad, is a messianic title. Think of it as simply "messiah". Those who claimed to be the messiah would be called mhmd/Mahmad, just as Jesus was the Messiah.

[@JungleJargon]

@@IslamicOrigins I know.

[@alonzoharris326]

@@IslamicOrigins The Father is also a title of Satan in the bible. This means satan must be god according to your ‘logic’.

[@Final_Turn]

🌟 #Quran is clear, Mohammad is Jesus.

[@thetru123th]

No prophet where names off revaluations man made into prophets so they could worship them.jesus never existed

[@joesaba386]

Ñot the quran

[@garybowings1538]

​@thetru123th Dear Broder: Clay is dirt. Clay not alive. I bought clay bowl at store. Bowl NOT alive. My shoe dirty with clay. Clay make mud. Human being NOT clay. Adam NEVER existed." - Aaron Harun

[@TomSnyder-y7u]

When did “Muslims” conquer Spain and parts of India?

[@andrewcole4843]

I thought that the more popular recent reinventions of the SIN have Mu'awiya as a governor of Syria first, only getting power due to alliance with Christianized Syrian tribes. As usual without attempting to justify using primary evidence.

[@dominiqueubersfeld2282]

MHMD [05] 7th century proof that Luke Skywalker may have been Frodo Baggins!

[@peteodonnell6219]

The praised one is perfect title for Jesus, because that's what we do, we don't worship him Mr Deedat, , we praise him

[@Calatriste54]

I praise Jesus always. I worship Him alone. For He alone is worthy and is seated on His Throne.

[@jdschauss]

We worship Jesus as God, AND we praise Him.

[@davidmcintosh3468]

So is "Abd Al Malik" the "servant of the King Jesus"? Very interesting! God bless you all!

[@SAGEM3]

The cross was used to crucify people in the 7th century. Whether you were Christian or not the cross was not a sign of Christianity until Jesus was crucified on it. Jews used it for death and so did they all. I’m not a religious person but I feel like I’ve studied on this with a more open mind instead of just jumping straight to conclusions.

[@lindaclark6148]

When Jesus returns, he will rule from Jerusalem. So your claim, Mel, is spot on!

[@KingDavid1979]

Worst doctrine ever he will not return, Torah is clear about it worshiping a dead man is idolatry! Go watch Rabbi Tovia Singer and Tenack Talk and leave idolatry religion! Myriam was not virgin ( Ezekiel 37-19 ) Sarah Damaris daughter of Yeshuah Ben Yossef married with Athenor! NT fallin like a castle 🏰 of card ! Jew 1000 Christian/ Muslim 0

[@jma7600]

All this time Muslims were worshipping the lord Jesus unintentionally thinking it is their prophet mhmt.

[@furkancimen3145]

Jesus is myth lol

[@lakevacm]

Obviously this schism in the early faith did not buy into some of the theological conclusions of the Nicene Council. No doubt they had good reason and to this day they are a third pillar. Why did Islam gain such prominence? It is God’s strategy to eventually serve the Lord of the Second Advent. If the Lord of the Second Advent, coming in the capacity of the third Adam has to reject certain conclusions of the Catholic and Orthodox traditions, Islam may turn out to be more receptive to the Lord of the Second Advent’s message than those who are centrally prepared.

[@LorinPartain]

The SIN is massively wrong. Imagine my shock !!! LOL

[@CornieOdendaal]

Amazing

[@larsmorlingbibelstudium3301]

Very important with Golgatha, Getsemane and tomb of Mary. He was clearly a Christian

[@vicmath1005]

Heard of Nazarenes? They did it too. The Nazarene sect was started by the disciples of Jesus. The first Caliph ("successor") of Jesus was James (Yakoub/Yakov), his brother.

[@IslamicOrigins]

Nonsense.@@vicmath1005

[@vicmath1005]

@@IslamicOrigins You make many such declarations. But the picture is a little different.

[@IslamicOrigins]

It is a slander against James to say he was not a Christian. It is also bad history as there are millions of pages of evidence amongst the Church Fathers to indicate the opposite of what you are claiming as regards the broader point. Christians did exist in the Holy Land. I'm not saying the Nazarenes didn't exist but they were a marginal heretical group, so msall that they left almost no trace for much of that history, surfacing once in a while when denounced by Christian leaders. @@vicmath1005

[@RedWolf75]

​@@IslamicOrigins The Nazarenes were in the Petra/Jordan/Northern Saudi Arabia. They may have been in Iraq too. There were not in Judea. This is BS!

[@The_Green_Man_OAP]

Mu'awiya and his father Abu Sufyan had opposed Muhammad, their distant Qurayshite kinsman and later Mu'awiya's brother-in-law, until Muhammad captured Mecca in 630. Afterward, Mu'awiya became one of Muhammad's scribes. He was appointed by Caliph Abu Bakr (r. 632-634) as a deputy commander in the conquest of Syria. He moved up the ranks through Umar's caliphate (r. 634-644) until becoming governor of Syria during the reign of his Umayyad kinsman, Caliph Uthman (r. 644-656). He allied with the province's powerful _Banu Kalb_ tribe, developed the defenses of its coastal cities, and directed the war effort against the Byzantine Empire, including the first Muslim naval campaigns.

[@The_Green_Man_OAP]

Banu Kalb (Arabic: بنو كلب ) was an Arab tribe which mainly dwelt in the desert and steppe of northwestern Arabia and central Syria. It was involved in the tribal politics of the Byzantine Empire's eastern frontiers, possibly as early as the 4th century. _By the 6th century, the Kalb had largely adopted Christianity_ and came under the authority of the Ghassanids, leaders of the Byzantines' Arab allies. During the lifetime of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, a few of his close companions were Kalbites, most prominently Zayd ibn Haritha and Dihya, but the bulk of the tribe remained Christian at the time of Muhammad's death in 632. They began converting in large numbers when the Muslims made significant progress in the conquest of Byzantine Syria, in which the Kalb stayed neutral. As a massive nomadic tribe with considerable military experience, the Kalb was sought as a key ally by the Muslim state. The leading clans of the Kalb forged marital ties with the Umayyad family, and the tribe became the military foundation of the Syria-based Umayyad Caliphate (661-750) from the reign of Mu'awiya I (r. 661-680) to the early reign of Abd al-Malik (r. 685-705).

[@SamStGeorge]

Great stuff indeed

[@midimusicforever]

Wait WHAAT?!

[@emmanuelhabibmayga7476]

Good Good 👍 ❤❤

[@OrdoMallius]

Abd Al Malik wins a war against trinitarian Byzantium. He builds Dome on the Rock and puts in inscriptions that are all about Jesus. First mention of Muhammad. Except it's not Muhammad.

[@Kuudere-Kun]

The Koran doesn't actually say Jesus didn't die on The Cross, that's a interpretation, I've seen both Christian and Muslim scholars explain this. Also the "Mercy Seat" being translated as a word for a Seat or Throne begins with Martin Luther's German translation.