Therapist Reacts: Paul and Morgan Reject Any Sex Advice That Isn’t Theirs

[@RisaPlays]

"withholding sex is selfish" NO what's REALLY selfish is feeling entitled and DEMANDING someone give of their body what they're not comfortable giving.

[@hashtagmate]

You can't "withhold" something that the other person isn't entitled to. They really really are telling on themselves

[@dliap98]

​​@@hashtagmate this is honestly such a good point. like you can't withhold something from someone that they do not own. as if it was 'taken' from them or some shit

[@brittybee6615]

@@hashtagmatewhy do you say “telling on themselves” as though they are trying to hide something? Every other Christian in their audience already takes it as a given premise.

[@treelicker]

Exactly what I was thinking. Like how can it be entirely blamed on one person?? It's objectively more emotionally harmful to force someone (or shame them) who doesn't want sex than it is to abstain for a while. Maybe spend that extra time trying to figure out why your partner no longer feels comfortable or desires you enough to sleep with you. Jesus

[@MissieLotus]

@@treelicker amen

[@Spider.0777]

"I made a suggestion" well there's your problem. Never do that again Paul.

[@abbythecat01]

Idk why but this made me laugh my ass off 😂 also, it’s very true! 😂

[@faithcantrell8378]

This comment reminds me of when I would get in trouble as a child and I’d say ‘well I didn’t think that-‘ and my mom would interrupt me like ‘yEaH tHaTs RigHt YoU dIdInT tHiNk~!’ 😂

[@kelviannaepperson3677]

They obviously say you should and shouldn't to this or that.

[@tenormartin277]

They just come across as so stunted somehow. They are trying to be nuanced here, but they don’t feel like adults to me. It feels like listening to 16 year-olds.

[@suzbone]

@@tenormartin277 you're so right. Their ignorance makes them appear like they're just children.

[@ruamacreates]

As someone who's been in an abusive relationship, the "you owe your partner sex" thing makes me want to commit crimes

[@gabiluch87]

Yeah, now that I look back at an abusive partner I had I realize there was a lot of talk about me owing him sex from the times I didn't want to coz I was not ready to be intimate with him. Ugh

[@bethmoore7722]

I was in a fundie cult, and the elders decided that married women had to have sex with their husbands at least every 48 hours. I got to the point that I wanted to scratch his eyes out every time he touched me. Because using the cudgel of god to get your wife to have sex is nothing but sexual assault.

[@medikaateasmr]

Yuuuuuup came to say the same

[@Sparklecatofdoom]

Same

[@ruamacreates]

@@gabiluch87 Im so sorry that you went through that and i definetly relate. In my case, that was never said directly, but looking back it was clearly the belief behind all of the horrible conversations and interactions we had.

[@Rikke.V]

The idea that not giving your partner sex when you don't want it is selfish but your partner taking sex when you're not into it isn't selfish 🧠🤸‍♀️

[@chlyri]

They'll say it isn't selfish, because a man's wife is his property- which is the nicest way to put it, but let's just be real, she's a slave in the eyes of so many churches, even if they won't ever use that word. A slave that doesn't do what the master commands is wrong. On the flip side, a man that takes what he wants from his slave can't possibly be selfish, because she's his. It boils down to how much lesser women are still seen as in comparison to men. We're objects that can't have any control over our bodies. As Paul and Morgan have indicated, conservative religions just see any woman that owns her sexuality as broken, or at least dangerously out of control.

[@duetopersonalreasonsaaaaaa]

Those emojis are killing me hahahaha

[@vandelay159]

This!!!👏👏

[@bluetickbeagles116]

@@chlyri 1000% correct and it’s one of the top reasons that I’ll never embrace Christianity again in my life…women are owned objects. 🤮🤮

[@patootien]

@@chlyri as I heard aptly put the other day, objects don't object

[@marleneperez3219]

Morgan: “Sleeping with other people before getting married WILL affect your marriage… not mine tho bc God loves me” 🤡

[@roosaas]

They’re extra special, aren’t they? The stuff that affects others isn’t affecting them (according to them). *Smh*

[@alicjaz2771]

Well, now if Paul's bad in bed he can act as if it's her fault

[@XMissGX]

@@alicjaz2771 Oh Paul is for sure bad in bed.

[@Isabella-vx3bc]

The worst part is I think she means that Because it does affect her marriage Like Paul will never shut up about it Even in videos there's always a guilt tripping tone when he brings it up

[@jennifergonzalez9129]

When you come to Jesus he makes everything new.

[@captaincorndog]

If one partner has to be "self-sacrificial" and just deal with having sex that they dont want why can't the other partner be self sacrificial by NOT VIOLATING THEIR PARTNER

[@Astadourian]

Yep. How is this not an example of “selfless love”?!

[@JunAlex86]

Exactly. Especially if that denial of sex comes from trauma, wellness, or desirability. There is self-sacrificial love in being patient & working through issues to a partner.

[@xtinkerbellax3]

Because he's a man.

[@morgianasartre6709]

They actually talk about that though. And they do talk about how compromises on both ends need to be had, showing grace towards your partner on both sides on top of open communication on why you might not want it if it pertains to an extended period of time to prevent it having negative impact on your relationship.

[@515aleon]

Read an interesting book, "Jesus and John Wayne" (by Kristin Kobes Du Mez). Talks about this sort of masculinity and remakes Jesus into this super muscle-y dude that is ready for a fight, and women into sort of ultra subs. Some of the stuff out of these beliefs makes P&M seem downright enlightened, but imo, they still seem to be buying into the basic tenets of Christianity as some sort of masculine power religion. I'm not a Christian anymore, but for sure, all Christians do not.

[@digitalHistorian]

I work in a sex store. I spend more time reassuring people on their own desires and educating them on their own basic anatomy and consent, than I do talking about the toys. I am grateful as always to you for pushing back on these harmful beliefs around sex. As a trans man who was raised conservative catholic in the 80's, I have seen (and experienced) the harms these beliefs can cause. But now I also get to see the joys of people deconstructing those beliefs and discovering new worlds about themselves. 🥰

[@haleyzwaal4183]

Idk how to put this, but y'all (sex shop workers) do a LOT of educational and emotional labour that doesn't get applauded enough. So thank you, and you sound like a phenomenal person.

[@nyanbinary1717]

You're doing good work out there, my queer brother.

[@theupwardspiral1580]

Y'all made me cry. Awww I appreciate ya!

[@littleguyilia]

ur a legend dude !! it warms my heart so much to see older queers being out and living their lives despite all the hardships. all my love to u < 3

[@kristelfae5054]

You are doing so much good work, this is such a big deal to unlearn!! Thank you ♥️

[@Lore.Ash476]

I have a Christian friend who was REALLY struggling with the “you need to give your body to your husband thing.” She was going through depression and just didn’t feel good about much of anything. They went with friends to a Christian Couples retreat that reinforced this idea and she was STRUGGLING. I tried to tell her it’s okay and to communicate what was going on…. But she believed her duty as a wife was to have sex w her husband when he wanted and the culture reminded her over and over. So anyone who believes this doesn’t cause harm is wrong!

[@flintlock37]

That's so terrible :( is she doing better now?

[@rosesanderson4625]

Of all the weird leftover hang ups I have from being raised in the church this is one that still hangs around 18 years after I left. Not on a conscious level, but it's still there in the back of my mind and it still influences my decisions. So yeah, solidarity. Hope your friend works something out.

[@annikkirahko6714]

Same I’m deconstructing and also was a victim of CSA growing up so the whole give your body to your husband thing was really rough. Especially since sex always had a very negative connotation to me. I’m really lucky I have a wonderful who helped me through everything. I’m doing better now but Jesus it’s rough sometimes still

[@jeremyblade7561]

It really is a destructive mindset, and I was on the other side. The only point in my life I would call myself evil was when I was with my ex-wife trying to explain to her what I was supposed to be entitled to. At the time, I not only thought I was in the right, both families agreed with me. I'm not trying to justify anything. I just wanted to point out just how invasive that thinking can be. It terrifies me to think of the psychological harm I could have done, all the while thinking myself pious.

[@daneesledge1626]

Yeah it’s so common. If you’re still in contact with her and she is open to it, there is a book called “The Great Sex Rescue” that addresses the damage taught in these Christian circles. The author Sheila Wray Gregoire is doing amazing work to expose the terrible teachings so common in Christian circles.

[@MintyFreshCupcakes]

How is it selfish to “deny” your partner sex but not selfish to make them do something they don’t want and probably also never actually satisfy them

[@deathdragoncat]

I'll never understand myself. A lot of people (especially men) feel like it's your duty as the spouse to have sex with them because they bring home the money. It's really weird and disgusting. All those memes about women being too scared to say no and having to make excuses to get out of sex. (Ie I have a headache right now) and how a lot of the guys get upset at that is really scary.

[@chlyri]

It's only selfish if you're a woman denying a man. Women are only allowed to want sex as much as their husbands, or they're seen as sluts and whores.

[@ericafors6039]

@@deathdragoncatUm, WTF, the vast majority of American woman WORK. So, the I pay the bills line is meaningless!

[@hanatemonstas4485]

@@ericafors6039They mean trads and SAHMs with a single income provider.

[@starlingswallow]

Ahhhh, the double standards 😅

[@johnb8940]

How horrifying is it to be told, "You aren't allowed to learn about your own body unless someone of the opposite sex is in the room, married to you, and contributing." Its people who know nothing about sex or sexuality trying to dictate to others what sex is or should be.

[@dragonmage7980]

It's people who want a warm sex doll to fuck, not an equal partner with feelings and rights, who promote this garbage. Then people who are ignorant about what healthy, loving sex actually is and should be get pulled into their orbit, influenced, and spread the garbage even further thinking they're in the right.

[@natsmith303]

I knew a guy in bible college who was getting married. I had distanced myself at least a little from the Evangelical Bubble by this point, so I took it upon myself to give him the sex advice no one else was going to give him. We were going along, and I mentioned oral in passing. He remarked, "Yeah, but she's not ready to do that for me yet." I said, "No, I meant oral... the other direction..." There was a momentary pause as he thought about it and then asked, "There's oral sex for women?" I did the full slow-head-turn toward him. "YES!!! WHAT DID YOU THINK LESBIANS DID TOGETHER?!???!" "I guess I just thought they looked at each other and masturbated from across the room. And I only knew women *could* masturbate because *you* told me." All of which is to say, Paul's advice on "self discovery" is entirely of a piece with a culture which truly does not give two shits about women's pleasure or autonomy.

[@lauram.9892]

I graduated from an undergrad Bible College and I nearly spit out my drink laugh at this comment. So accurate 😂

[@LipSyncLover]

honestly, i didnt grow up in a strict purity culture but lets just say a household where sex wasn't really talked about. and so, even I didnt know oral sex was enjoyable for women or people with vulvas until i was 17 and a friend was describing her boyfriend going down on her. i dont know why i hadnt put it together. id been using a showerhead on myself since 12. but i didnt realize a mans mouth could really provide that much pleasure. funny thing, thats like my favorite way to do it as it turns out. But yes, there are GROWN christian adults who have either never realized this. Or....worse....they think its a perversion....

[@otherdreams]

@@LipSyncLover Well, under Christian tradition, oral (as well as anal) is considered sodomy!

[@LipSyncLover]

@paperandglue true. Whenever my partner and I have the occasional dry spell, a few weeks without sex for whatever reason (typically just illness or stress) I like to remind myself I've had it better sexually as a woman in this day and age than a ton of women throughout history. No forced marriages or being told to spit out children or else. I've had actual orgasm parity in most relationships including my marriage, and a husband that loves eating 😸. Women, especially Christian women before me, had it really rough :(

[@mirrortarget5729]

When that guy finds out about the clitoris, his mind is going to be fucking blown

[@AMFibers]

I am a cis woman with a cis male partner. Throughout our relationship our sex drives have fluctuated. Sometimes mine is higher, sometimes his is higher. At NO point did either of us feel entitled to more sex than the other wanted. Now, if either of us was repeatedly turning down advances the other would ask, "is everything okay?" But that was asked out of genuine concern, not entitlement. So yes, if your partner's sex drive dramatically changes, you should probably discuss that to make sure they're doing alright. You should definitely not tell them that they owe you sex. How disgusting.

[@kristelfae5054]

Exactly!

[@C-SD]

Conversation is the biggest thing probably. Someone told me once that you and your partner should spend almost as much time talking about sex as having it.

[@lacey892]

@@C-SD i'd argue we should be talking about sex and intimacy with our partner just as much if not more than we're actually having it.

[@lacey892]

This! If my partner who is normally on my same wavelength suddenly drops off or speeds past me, I'm gonna be thinking 'hey what's going on are they good?' and try to sit down to talk... not decide well they should probably just shut up and put out. disgusting.

[@blueismylove3128]

@@lacey892 Is that not what they're saying?

[@lyddie465]

when you said "christianity offers solutions to problems that christianity created" i almost gasped out loud it's so accurate. also thank you for being so inclusive in your language and celebrating everyone

[@beyondallmeasure]

I feel this deeply as someone who is deconstructing from a fundamentalist cult.

[@kianadavisrodell3300]

@K +

[@suzbone]

I've heard it compared to someone showing up at your doorstep, slashing you with a knife when you open the door, then cheerfully announcing they have the *perfect* bandage for that.

[@alanamontero4743]

It's so accurate.

[@supersassy9441]

clearly you don’t understand what christianity is supposed to mean. i’m sorry for people who’ve made you feel like that’s what it’s all about :(

[@SageK253]

I love that I get to add "lack of sex" to the list of reasons why my marriage "isn't real". We're both trans and queer, polyamorous, and asexual. I guess love, support, raising our kids together, sharing our joys and struggles, and commitment to each other just makes us really great roommates?

[@lilianmorgenstern2123]

🎶roommates besties close friends colleagues anything but lovers 🎶 In all honesty - good for you I’m glad you feel safe and supported through your relationships and that your children get a village of open hearted kind people with excellent communication skills to look after them ☺️

[@MCalland]

Omg y'alls relationship sounds cute af. I bet y'all are great parents too. Err I mean ahhh how dare you not have naked sweaty time ahhh! Seriously tho, what is with these religious nuts?! 🤔

[@workingdogslog3442]

This sounds like such a lovely relationship.

[@Arrabella2024]

I'm not trying to be snarky, but genuinely wondering: How can you be both polyamorous and asexual?

[@laurlaurmarmar7697]

@@Arrabella2024”Amorous” means “love”, which is not inherently tied to sex.

[@ddawggggggg69]

The smug, dissatisfied, judgmental face Morgan has toward everyone and everything tells me exactly what I need to know about the level of happiness and contentment in her life. She regularly looks absolutely miserable, why would anyone want to follow their advice?

[@lindsay6518]

I really hope that she divorces him in ten years and TELLS US EVERYTHING that happened in their marriage. And leaves christianity.

[@EatABrickBigot]

​@@lindsay6518 omg, pleaseeeee.

[@duetopersonalreasonsaaaaaa]

@@lindsay6518 well she doesn't have to tell us, but I'd love if she could reclaim her right to her body and mental peace. She seems so unhappy. I really hope the best for her...

[@dazzlinggleams]

Honestly, I feel like she comes off more judgmental than he does most of the time. I'm appalled by the things that come out of her mouth. Not to mention the way she talks about other groups of Christians. If the word unhappy had a photo beside it in the dictionary, it'd be her face with that smug expression. She always thinks she knows better, but she can't tell her ass from her face.

[@EatABrickBigot]

She does always look miserable. Hey, she's the one that chose that life. She thought it was a good idea to marry a man that thinks like that and then have a baby with him.. 🤷 No way are either of them happy living the way they do. The psychological distress, constant self criticism, and caring so much about what others are doing must eat at them..

[@varg6663]

Paul and Morgan talking about how prudish other fundies are like.... THE CALL IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE!!!

[@gabiluch87]

Yessss THIS COMMENT

[@theupwardspiral1580]

True 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣

[@Kudeshka]

I watched some of their videos and as a Christian they really go their own way and have created their own belief that in their view is elevated than the other Christians. Morgan used to not be Christian and she used to have sex so I do not get her being so judgmental and condescending. There was a controversy where a male pastor told women to cover up and a woman pastor went against him and they were bashing the woman and backing up the guy

[@BlertaPupu]

​@@Kudeshkashe's probably so judgemental because a) controversy and clicks b) maybe also feeling guilty and projecting?

[@thebeyondz]

Marital g*rape is so real. My mom is finally talking to a lawyer to take my father to court after so many years of suffering. Coming from a religious and cultural background where I know we’re going to face so much push back from family for “airing out dirty laundry” but I will forever be my mom’s #1 champion and supporter in US and Mexican 🇲🇽 court. Thank you so much for talking about these topics, they really do help people.

[@demeterm4813]

Send my love to your mom ❤️ I'm a stranger on the internet, so it's probably not worth anything, but know there's a lot of us siding with her.

[@adrianghandtchi1562]

It’s going to be a long road of deconstruction from such violence against your mom in that way, I hope you guys will be OK in the future moving on

[@anzabi1543]

My friend, which letter was the star supposed to replace if you wrote the whole word after it ?😅

[@ksen333]

I wish your mum all the best in her healing journey, is it even possible to prove marital grape? even non-marital one is almost impossible to prove

[@Tarlondwen]

You can probably just either say grape or r@pe, it's ok.

[@sepiajoy2871]

When I hear P&M talk about how “self discovery” should only be done with a partner (your heterosexual spouse, specifically), I think that that’s problematic for another reason: you don’t owe anyone your sexual self. Masturbation and sex is deeply personal and often a vulnerable act. When someone says that you should ONLY do it with a partner, it invites this idea that one’s sexuality is dependent and contingent on their partner. Masturbation is only acceptable if a partner is there to view it. I hate that! NO! Enjoying masturbation together, viewing each others bodies is a lovely and beautiful thing, but it’s not all that it should be! You should be allowed to explore and pleasure yourself without feeling guilty because someone isn’t there to watch. You are going to miss out on so much if you only do it that way. One should never feel as if their sexual exploration is owed to their partner. Istg anti-masturbation ideology just keeps going, even in 2023.

[@rachel_sj]

I'm not sure if you come from a religious background abd I don't wanna assume you do, but masturbation is seen as a serious "sexual sin" akin to "cheating" or "committing adultery" to your future spouse (if a person gets married at all). Sex, whether solo or not (but more so on the solo end), is seen as dangerous since the highs of Sex and orgasims compete with the highs and satisfaction that God/Jesus/religion are *supposed* to bring. Some Bible verses, specifically from the Apostle Paul, talk about how "your body isn't your own" and those verses are taken literally (fun fact: Paul wrote those verses assuming that both he and other members of the Early Church were waiting for Jesus to return and the best way to live one's life was a life of celibacy and chastity until that time came). On the extreme (and from my own personal experience), parents and others will avoid talking about Sex organs, body parts, basic information, etc, lest you stoke some kind of carnal passions in young people (hence why "Abstinence Only" Sex "ed" is pushed, even though it's been proven not to work)...

[@Ellie-bj2uw]

@@rachel_sj well that's not good at all.

[@annasalmans5523]

@@rachel_sj I grew up in a Christian cult and this is exactly how it is.

[@nikkio.9990]

Totally agree but took me awhile to realize my sexuality is MINE. Conservative Christianity in all it's forms teaches that your body doesn't belong to you. It's very harmful.

[@Kira_Martel]

It drives me nuts because the anti-masturbation doctrine isn't biblical at all. It's so deep in Christian culture now that people are afraid to question it, but it has absolutely no scriptural backing unless you're willing to do some serious stretching and misinterpretation. And if you are a sincere Christian, then you know we shouldn't be adding to or taking away from anything the scriptures say. God didn't say anything against masturbation, so as long as it's a healthy and loving expression of sexuality for you, have at it!

[@rpstgag]

I totally believe Morgan when she says that she doesn't listen to outside criticism - I think she's a little afraid of hearing outsiders clock and affirm her internal dissatisfaction.

[@morgianasartre6709]

I mean, on the other hand, if I was happily married and caring for a newborn I also wouldn't want to go and listen to strangers speculating about my personal life, calling my husband an abuser, reading too far into my body language and trying to overanalyze every word.

[@Insertia_Nameia]

​@@Sam_I_MI mean in this video she outright says she won't watch them and he basically skims them and spoon feeds her any supposed info contained there in. He feeds her every thought she has. Not a single one is of her own design. He filters everything and tells her what they supposedly said what HE thinks it means, and what SHE should think about it.

[@hanatemonstas4485]

⁠​⁠​⁠@@morgianasartre6709I mean, on the other hand, she has no problem acting similar and fear-monger to others who she personally deams not morally right according to her personal biases. It’s hypocritical of her.

[@IndustrialCake]

Unfortunately this is commonly drilled into Christians’ heads…to be extremely cautious of socializing or intermingling with “non-believers.” It’s designed that way to keep them in the church and not be swayed by free-thinkers.

[@firedjinndragon]

The noise I made when Morgan said people who advocate for sexual autonomy in marriage don't 'understand what selfless love is'... the absolute audacity

[@dragonmage7980]

It's actually tragic how brainwashed this chick is. How ignorant about the world do you have to be, and how much do you have to hate yourself, to wind up like that?

[@TheAwesomes2104]

Something that really disgusts me about our legal system is that most states REQUIRE you to have sex with your spouse. If you refuse, your marriage can be annulled. When my boyfriend got divorced, he was so sure that the abuse and the fact that he hadn't seen his spouse in 6 years, and that she was living with and having children with another man would be all he needed for the divorce, AND THEY WEREN'T GOING TO GRANT IT. That was until his lawyer asked him how often they had sex and he begrudgingly answered that they didn't and she didn't want to have sex with him, and the lawyer was like "Jackpot, can't believe you didn't tell me this sooner. This would have all blown over so long ago if you would have just told me she won't sleep with you." Which he never did, because he never thought that could ever possibly legally matter, but it does. He went to the next court date, she didn't show up again, the lawyer said she wouldn't sleep with him, and the judge granted the divorce effective immediately. The horrible fundamentalist idea that you owe sex to your husband is literally baked into our legal system. Hell, say two ace people get married and never have sex, the state can declare that they were never actually married simply on that basis. If you're not having sex with your partner, the law considers your marriage illegitimate. Blows my fucking mind

[@LottieDeLuscious]

Why did the lawyer need to be told if he knew that he hadn't seen his wife in 6 years??

[@TheAwesomes2104]

@@LottieDeLuscious apparently the whole point was that they didn't have sex at the beginning of their marriage while they weren't physically separated. For example, if two people are married and one gets sent to prison or overseas in the military for multiple years, the two people not having sex isn't really considered by the court. Also, the courts are super dumb about some stuff. They made him take a DNA test to prove that he wasn't the father of the other man's child, even though the kid was born like a year into his prison sentence during covid. There were no in-person visitations, let alone conjugal visits, but the court still made him DNA test to prove he wasn't the father of the baby even though it would have been physically impossible for him to have been. Judge even acknowledged that it wasn't physically possible, but still ordered that he take the DNA test before the divorce would be granted.

[@grimlesbians]

bioessentialism is baked into the legal side of marriage too tbh. its difficult/impossible for a legally male/female couple to get their marriage annulled if theyve had sex because its assumed that a legally female person could be pregnant. but in some places legally male/male or female/female couples can get annulled or divorced easily even if theyve been married and having sex for yrs. also i need to point this out wherever possible bc its my pet agenda with fundies and it needs to be said, theyre largely for child marriage, and married minors legally cannot file for divorce. they dont have the rights to.

[@morgianasartre6709]

I think not having sex should be a good enough reason for divorce, that is part of the spousal agreement for the vast majority of people afterall. If the two people are ace then it should also be all cool and dandy, but if one is ace and never mentioned that to the other person or discovered it later on they shouldn't expect the other person to be okay with that. But not granting divorce after years of separation and on the grounds of abuse is ridiculous.

[@grimlesbians]

@@morgianasartre6709 i mean boundaries and needs r part of relationships in general, not just marriage, but thats not what this is abt. acceptable sexuality in marriage in the eyes of the court is extremely heteronormative and bioessentialist. it has so, so little to do with boundaries.

[@sarahperkins6421]

It gets funnier and sadder every time Paul has to resort to abstract yard metaphors because uttering the word "kink," is too naughty.

[@theupwardspiral1580]

🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂

[@morgianasartre6709]

I don't think he is talking about kinks per se

[@morgianasartre6709]

@@515aleon They spell it that way to not get demonitised, instagram and youtube (and probably other platforms) do not allow you to say porn and many other words without punishing you financially, on instagram I think you can't even comment the word so people say corn and similar variations.

[@515aleon]

@@morgianasartre6709 Yeah I figured after thinking about it.

[@515aleon]

@@theupwardspiral1580 Yeah removed my comment figured that after thinking about it. Paul is a jerk, just not that way. :D

[@oranges7]

Funny how they say it’s selfish to “withhold” sex from your partner but not that it’s selfish to demand and require sex from your uninterested partner

[@jjanganna]

All I can think about is how terrifying it must be to go from absolutely no contact with potential romantic partners to immediately being pressured into sex after marriage. How is someone with that kind of background supposed to be comfortable exploring their body with someone else in front of them! There is a massive difference between fantasizing about something in your head and actually doing it with your partner and they don't ever seem to mention that.

[@lauraberg6872]

It's not really like that, or at least it wasn't my experience. If one is in a healthy relationship and has quality sex education, you look forward to exploring and figuring things out.

[@jjanganna]

@@lauraberg6872 yeah, i’m talking about people like ultra conservative christians who are raised with extreme purity culture and poor sex education. It’s difficult to suddenly flip a switch and turn off that shame. I’ve heard MANY women raised in this kind of environment talk about how difficult it was and how after that first time they were completely turned off and afraid of having to do it again.

[@morgianasartre6709]

Yes, that's also something I wonder, like if all your life you were told you would be like this chewed up piece of gum if you had sex and the like, were discouraged from even being alone in a room with a man... and then suddently you have to go from literally 0 to a 100 in one night? Crazy.

[@Mikey-jv5fv]

@@lauraberg6872 the thing is people like Paul and Morgan do not have decent sex education prior marriage nor in all likelihood a healthy relationship. Iirc they have even talked about (at least Morgan I think) how that switch in mindset was pretty difficult once they were married.

[@lauraberg6872]

@@jjanganna yes, I have heard those stories too. So sad. I did have to navigate some challenges with my husband but neither of us were scared of sex. We were just inexperienced.

[@lellow19]

Here's a fun story for you. Over the course of the pandemic, my husband realized that he's asexual. At this point we had been together for 6 years, married for 2. I am very much not asexual. Hubby and I started discussing the merits of ENM (ethical non-monogamy). We have a few friends that practice this and we're able to find some resources on it as well. I brought it up with my therapist (an older, more traditional type woman) and she started referring to it as me "looking outside the marriage". She suggested that we try having scheduled sex. This really upset me. The reason it upset me is that it really didn't take into consideration the distress it would put on my husband. I am not going to force him to have sex with me. He doesn't deserve that and I'm not entitled to his body. We have a very healthy relationship and he enjoys the fact that I get to enjoy sex with others. We are very safe about it and very selective. All of this is to say: no one is entitled to another person's body. If your partner is not interested in sex, TALK ABOUT IT WITH EACH OTHER. Communicate and try to find a solution that works for you both. Maybe scheduled sex would work for. ENM isn't for everybody. But communication is the only way to solve anything.

[@sugaredyoongi]

As someone who is asexual I almost never discuss that with therapist's because I fear this response. It sounds like you and your husband have a lot of respect for each other and I love that you guys found what works for you!

[@adrianghandtchi1562]

I like to use the three-way advice, even if two out of the three partners are on board, one no is the ultimate no. So, even if majority says yes, if one person is not feeling it and it’s still part of the dynamic, it’s the end all be all until they are ready. That sounds like a lot of pressure, but really, I don’t think so, they can be assured that no one’s gonna do anything people don’t want to do just because the persons saying yes, outweighs the persons saying no.

[@cussedcat28]

You guys are lucky to have each other

[@sepiajoy2871]

Yikes, what an unfortunate reaction from your therapist. I’d be disappointed and hurt hearing this, since opening up can be so vulnerable. If you are interested, I highly recommend looking into speaking with either a sex therapist, a kink-affirming therapist, or someone who works with polyamorous relationships. They are out there and will help you understand the territory better. I would also recommend checking out Dr. Joli Hamilton. She is a research psychologist who studies/works with non-monogamous relationships, or what she calls “creative monogamy”.

[@Kreepie11]

What a trash therapist! My partner was in poly relationships before we got together. It's not for me (my own mental hangups prevent me from being healthy about it), but there's nothing at all wrong with it. I wish you and your partner happiness and better luck with therapists going forward 💙

[@sepiajoy2871]

Ugh I hate this idea peddled by people like them that women are the gatekeepers of sex. That one is “keeping” sex from their partner. That’s so gross. Goes back to what Mickey said about women being “consumed.” This is the kind of mentality I want to combat when I become a sex therapist.

[@vintagearisen]

Right? Just think about what kind of disgusting, selfish person a man must be if he literally doesn't care whether his wife actually wants to be having sex with him or not. It's horrifying.

[@morgianasartre6709]

That's not what they are saying though, the do include both parties regardless of gender in this conversation.

[@Zanyotaku]

One of the most terrifying stories I’ve ever read was taking the idea of rape culture and “consuming” women as a product, essentially, but taken to a sci fi nightmare scape. Brrr. Reading it hurt my neck and shoulders because I kept curling up in tension even with lots of breaks. I wouldn’t recommend it because the story is dark enough I wouldn’t want to encourage anyone who wasn’t able to cope with it towards it, (it’s just wall to wall triggering content) because it was “bottom of the iceberg” DARK.

[@dr.gwendolyncarter]

Good luck on your career journey!🤗

[@sepiajoy2871]

@@dr.gwendolyncarter thank you very much!

[@Tjax514]

So, the first time my husband told me he loved me, was right after one of those embarassing moments after doing the deed. We had just finished and we were lounging in bed, and he farted and I laughed harder than I had in a while. He laughed with me, looked at me for a second, closed his eyes and said, "F**K it, I love you!" It is, by far, one of my favorite moments in the history of our relationship. (I also want to add the only reason he sai "F**k it" it because we had only been together for a little over a month.) If Paul was my husband, I never would have had that moment. I would have been far to worried about what was expected of me, and how I needed to preform.

[@MickeyAtkins]

This is one of the sweetest things I’ve ever read!! Those authentic human moments are SO beautiful. Thanks for sharing that here!!

[@Hair8Metal8Karen]

That is so cute!

[@armychickenable]

Thank you for putting in so much effort into inclusive language! As an ace, I love that this video on sex also normalizes the various shades of ace

[@MickeyAtkins]

I’m so glad you feel that way! Big shoutout to the ace community though for educating me because I have very much learned (and gotten it wrong!) along the way so it’s a community effort lol.

[@flutenanyidk1806]

@@MickeyAtkins YEAH!!! GREYSEXUAL QUESTIONING! Hi. Idk I'm just not attracted to most people but I'm not sure if that's because I'm grey or because my religion made me afraid of my sexuality.

[@momorinkyun]

Yeah, one more thanks from ace. The way you said that not every person need to have sex made me feel so seen💕

[@Zanyotaku]

I always feel safe and seen on mickey’s videos as an asp/aro-spectrum person! And yeah, I mean if I didn’t love myself who would? I know how to manage my libido, just cause I’m not attracted to men/women doesn’t mean I don’t have sex negative ideas to unpack and stuff to explore on my own. I love judgement free sex stuff and as a nursing student myself I love sources and evidence based practice, which Mickey is really good about. It’s wild I’ve actually faced backlash from my local church for being ace, why are they mad for what I’m not doing? Sheesh. (I also turned out to be infertile from endo, turns out the anger was I wasn’t marrying a man and having church babies, not that I wasn’t doing anything actually objectionable.)

[@515aleon]

Here here!!

[@wowlukewalker]

I really appreciated when Mickey brought up people like me who want to have sex but are not in a place where that feels safe. Her saying "sex is not a mandatory part of the human experience" meant a lot to me. It seems that every time I listen to this woman I hear healing words, thank you for that Mickey. 💜 from New Brunswick, 🇨🇦

[@kywhitehead_]

Reminding myself that these people have stated that you NEED to have sex minimum three times a week if you're married, otherwise you're lazy which explains why they think withholding sex for DAYS is too much. Wait until they find out the average couple has sex around once per week.

[@afckingegg7585]

I feel like 3 times/week is only possible when one of you isn't working and/or you don't have kids.

[@powderandpaint14]

And the average HAPPY couple is having sex once a week, statistics show.

[@morgianasartre6709]

They have gone back on that one though

[@LipSyncLover]

yep im a once a week-er and I honestly really don't mind it.

[@EllieofAzeroth]

Once a week is normal? I teared up when I read that. I've been made to feel like I'm a problem because I don't want to do it any more than that, or on my period. I don't think that's unreasonable and I finally feel so validated

[@afterly]

Paul just chomps at the bit every video to shame Morgan for her life before him, huh?

[@gabiluch87]

I wanna punch him so hard when he does that. I'm sure he makes her feel shameful and guilty about having had sex outside of marriage all the time.

[@timnewman1172]

It certainly appears that way...

[@afterly]

@@gabiluch87 right? and he's so effin' smug about it too "you can weigh in here morgan!" i smack the sound out of his name so bad LOL

[@ExtraordinaryMachine333]

For people who have "gotten over" their past, it comes up A LOT

[@XXwhoknowsXX81]

He needs to show he’s the head of the relationship and the “leader”

[@Emcostanza]

How did they get “you’re holding out in your husband for years” out of “it’s okay to not want to have sex sometimes”?

[@leothenomad5675]

Its called a strawman argument, they actually know how bad "you aren't allowed to say no to your husband" is so they make the years and years argument because most people would not argue with that.

[@Uncontrolledd]

@@leothenomad5675💯💯💯

[@mram6]

@15:12 what damages our brains and intimacy isn’t porn, it’s misogyny. When porn and misogyny intersect, porn becomes harmful but porn isn’t inherently harmful in itself. Purity culture is more harmful than porn and both intersect with misogyny

[@Raztiana]

The bible belt is also the porn belt. Shame and the need to hide naughty things go hand in hand.

[@Cr0ut0n]

Such good points, you put this so perfectly!

[@Saturns_labyrinth]

Yes!

[@Damsel_in_This_Dress]

Porn can become harmful to a relationship if one person becomes addicted to it or dependent on it, to the extent that they neglect/become disinterested in their partner. But purity culture has caused so much damage within the church. So many books taught horrible messages about gender roles (men were the leaders and breadwinners, women were the stay-at-home wives and mothers who had to 'submit' to their husbands). People were taught that men were these uncontrollable animals who had to practically walk around blindfolded lest they caught sight of a bare ankle or an attractive woman who might cause them to 'sin'; while women were somehow responsible for men's thoughts and actions and had to police them as well as their own behaviour, and had to be careful about what they wore in case it caused them to 'lust'. It was completely acceptable for men to be fuelled by sexual desire, (because that's the way they're designed); and for men to struggle with temptation but if you were a woman, you couldn't feel an ounce of attraction or desire until your wedding night. Your body was a source of desire, or it was a source of fear and loathing. But your body didn't belong to you. It was so messed up. I didn't attend a church that was a participant in purity culture but it was so far-reaching, it's virtually impossible not to be affected by it in some way. Even the teaching that men are the 'heads' of the family, who have spiritual authority over their wives fills me with dread. Men are not Jesus. They are not God. They are supposed to be Christ-like in the way they love their wives, but the fact is, they are human and make mistakes, just like everyone else, and if you place them in a marriage where they are supposed to be 'higher' than their wives then in the end, that is not an equal partnership. And when you don't have equality, then one person has more power over someone else, and they can abuse that power. When I was in my 20s, I really wanted to be married, and tried reading Christian books on it, but they always left me feeling empty, somehow. I wanted to get on board with what they taught, but I just couldn't. Now I know why.

[@lesliebohn627]

Porn & misogyny seem to always be intersecting...

[@dramonmaster222]

I love that YT now has a banner that lets you know when someone is a True medical professional. I truly feel for the people who actually follow Paul & Morgan's advice because Yikes!

[@knitterinspace]

Wouldn't selfless love be about making sure your partner feels comfortable and safe even if it means no sex for you...? What a deeply weird take.

[@cashwalk7253]

Right??? You’d think

[@ionapuffy]

I had A LOT of different sexual partners before meeting my person, learned, enjoyed and grow as a person, there's no sexual trauma in my life and all of this experience just made my relationship better, don't allow anyone to shame you, do whatever feels healthy for yourself and just enjoy your sexuality because it's such an important part of your life ❤️

[@EmiSuess]

Yes!!! I too had a lot of partners prior to my marriage. I do have trauma because there was also a non-consensual experience in there. But the positive, consensual experiences I had only helped to heal that trauma and continue to aid in the beautiful moments I now get to spend with my wife. :))

[@takocos]

This particular cult is... I'm also a therapist and I work with this a lot and you have to treat it like a delusion. They're treating have experience in an activity as something that makes you worse at the activity because they've been brainwashed. That's not a normal thing a healthy brain thinks. And that cognitive dissonance can cause major problems and full blown depressive episodes. I worked with a young man who literally became suicidal over it. Once he got through his deprogramming journey he was alright, but I kept thinking- what if he hadn't had professional help? How many people are out there like him who don't have professional help? And he was so, so young, early 20s.

[@515aleon]

It's common and not all of them of mine were wholesome folks with good intents, let's just say. That does NOT mean you marry someone and they have wholesome good intents either.

[@R-rr1]

@@takocos Don't call Christianity a cult. Control your words.

[@takocos]

@@R-rr1 Christianity isn't a cult. I never said it was. Evangelism is a cult. They're 2 different things. Evangelism is a recognized cult by the APA, any licensed psychologist would call it a cult. Specifically, it's a "Doomsday Cult," and requires deprogramming, like with the patient I had. If someone calls a cult a cult and you hear, "Christianity is a cult," and attempt to police language based on decades of research that is routinely used to save lives, that's your misfortune and should be a red flag for your biases. Evangelism, specifically, was the subject of this video, not Christianity, and the KZbinr went out of her way to make that clear. It is not reasonable that you wouldn't understand this distinction. Christianity doesn't have purity culture, what is being described here, because there's no biblical basis for it, it's part of the behavior control and thought control in Evangelism, not in wider Christianity. Many Christians are divorced or widowed and remarried several times, as were many people in the bible, bringing their sexual experience with them with absolutely no shame attached. This type of thought control is exclusive to this one cult. Edit: I misspoke, it's not an ideology specific to this one cult, there are other cults that use it, but it's specific to cults. Thought control is indictive of cults.

[@deltaloraine]

The Christian perspective of marriage is what made me believe I could never be a good marriage partner. I genuinely believed I would end up being alone forever because there would be no partner who would respect me saying no. Im on the ace spectrum, but I didn’t know that when I was in the church. I thought I was broken, and was so afraid getting into relationships because I knew I wouldn’t be able to fulfill, what I thought, was the most important part of a relationship. My libido has always been minimal to none. And any time I asked for advice from the church on my situation, they told me I would get used to giving up my body regardless or else the relationship will fail and it would be MY fault for not being selfless enough. It makes me cringe just reliving those days, It’s so fucked up to connect someone’s worthiness of love to how good their sex drive is. Fuck that.

[@itsbrutusbitch]

Literally this except replace being ace w being repeatedly raped as a child and then made homeless for going to the cops and it's this constant place of no one will ever be safe cuz if I don't have sex when they snap their fingers I won't be valuable as a wife.

[@Kreepie11]

I'm so sorry you went through that experience 😞😖💙

[@susanstephan7689]

Similar story here. I'm not ace, but when I was in the church I heard a sermon on what a "good Christian wife" should be and "knew" that I'd be alone forever because I'd never be able to make myself submissive enough. It's pretty effed up to tell someone that they shouldn't be their whole self in a relationship.

[@alanamontero4743]

@@susanstephan7689 It was very similar for me. And I tried very hard to be a Good Submissive Christian Woman. I'm so glad to be free of that.

[@barrytalons2521]

I’m so sorry

[@peraspera934]

Where was Mickey when I was a teenager growing up in purity culture?! I was so sheltered that, at age 14, I thought I was sinning by looking up, "what is sex?" on WebMD. I spent the rest of my teen years traumatized by the idea of sex and disgusted by anything that even hinted at sensuality. Vague and shameful religious sex "education" can really mess people up. Thank you for counterbalancing this toxic culture, Mickey. 💛

[@vintagearisen]

I was so repressed that just seeing the word "sex" in the dictionary was thrilling and dangerous

[@terendril]

This so, so sadly relatable

[@racheld6338]

Fuck YES!! Same here, 100%... I didn't learn what sex was nor what a penis looked like and what my own female genitals looked like until FRESHMAN YEAR WELLNESS CLASS. I was 14 and didn't know my own body and even then it was just diagrams 😆

[@pensivecircles]

Growing up my mom drilled into me that regardless of how I felt, when I was married I needed to put out every time my husband was interested in intimacy. And she heavily implied that me saying 'no' for any reason would lead to my husband cheating- and it would be my fault for not putting out. In my late teens and early twenties I had severe stomach issues and was bed ridden for months- my mother's chief concern was that if we didn't 'fix' me I wouldn't be able to put out for my future husband. Mind you at this point I was single and I'd never even gone on a date. By the time I did get married I had such a twisted view of men's sexuality that I expected my husband to be this sex-crazed monster. It's taken me a few years to realize/internalize the fact he's actually just a normal person. Just like me, some days he's busy, tired, stressed, sick or just not feeling it. My husband would never pressure me into unwanted intimacy- and I'd never pressure him. I'm glad we're in a good place now but this line of thinking is so toxic. Why would you want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above your wants/mental emotional needs? I don't see how it's "selfless love" to put selfish sexual desires first

[@sarahruiz6553]

i had the same mother. She also threw in that being overweight would make him cheat. She struggle(s) with eating issues bordering anorexia. Also you had to look nice for him, but not TOO nice or you would attract otther men and make him jealous. I DID marry a monster. I did everything the church ladies and the christian books say to do, They really tell you that giving him more sex is going to fix everything but it just makes you want to die. He hurt me and destroyed my health through emotional and spiritual abuse. Him r aping me was the final straw before I left. I told my mom and she said, "Cant a man touch his wife?' ive left the chirch its so empty. Just narcisists destroying women for their own enjoyment. I know three pastors wives in my circle who are all beaten or abused in other ways. Men come to the church to consume ignorant innoocent women. Its sick

[@cuddlebug1957]

They’re basically saying you are not allowed to touch your own body. But your partner is?!? Guess I should also not massage my own feet cause it might feel nice.

[@millenadecampos7192]

No they are not saying that and also if you’re not a Christian why do you care? It’s not for you

[@racheld6338]

You actually shouldn't touch yourself at all! An imaginary hand with a loofah will wash your body in the shower *she says with sarcasm

[@jenluv]

As a woman in my 40's I wish I had this channel back in my late teens and early 20's. I know I'm not alone in having been in the situation where a person felt like they were owed access to our bodies and guilted us into doing things we weren't comfortable doing because it was our "duty" as a partner. Thank you for validating how f'd up that was. I knew it was f'd up, but it is very freeing to hear you say it. I hope you realize how important your voice is!

[@jenluv]

Big, safe consentual internet hug very accepted!

[@kathasthebestdog]

I think to forbid masturbation is not only bad for the mental health on itself, but also makes you weirdly codependent to the other person regarding satisfaction which seems to me really toxic.

[@sarahruiz6553]

and it feeds into the constant sexual obsession because they just suppress everything

[@mermaidcatching]

It is interesting that the “sacrifice” always seems to have to come from the partner who doesn’t want to have sex rather than the one who does. If love is supposed to be selfless then why shouldn’t it go the other way?

[@sarahruiz6553]

because men are coddled in the church and its the men who cant go without. The church represses you then tells young men that their wives are meant to serve their every need. The pipeline of virgin to sex addict with these men is a feature not a bug.

[@Hippidippimahm]

“Corn” that features non-binary people helped me find and understand my gender identity and what “adult activities” could be like for me as my transition progresses. I felt comforted, reassured, and genuinely educated by and grateful to the performers who created that content. Thanks so much for your channel!!!

[@reireireireireireirei]

There's porn with non-binary people?? Oh my god I know it's logical but I've just never really thought about it, although I'm non-binary. Thank you, I think it will be very nice seeing myself represented

[@Guanglai_Kangyiii]

​@@reireireireireireirei Usually, NB sex workers are self-employed and produce homemade content. There is a loooot of homemade content on the internet definitely, and that includes all sorts of queer content

[@kj7067]

As an asexual person, I really appreciate the care you take to emphasize that it's perfectly fine to not feel sexual attraction, and that sex is not necessary to have an intimate relationship. I feel like a lot of people who discuss channels like this focus on the 'no sex before marriage' part, and make a great deal of effort to emphasize that sex and sexual desire is completely natural - which it definitely is, but the singular focus on that part of the message can sometimes feel a bit isolating for people on the ace spectrum. So yeah, thank you. Your channel is a really safe space because of this.

[@annaalessandrini9965]

Mickey I LOVE U. You are the dream therapist (the hair color is the cherry on top). I’m italian, i stamble across your content while going down a rabbit hole about the polarized politics in the USA, the “religious right” and cultic stuff and I want to tell you how much I appreciate your content. You always came across as empathetic, savy, intelligent (and pretty funny) and I love how you always focus on the harmful beliefs without shaming the creator/person. Thank u

[@boondocksdragon8959]

They're condoning marital r*pe, etc., but I'M the "heathen"??? Aight...

[@haileybaker1383]

Her talking about owing your partner sex literally makes me want to cry. As someone who went through an abusive relationship where I was constantly pressured into sex, it is so traumatizing and it ruins sexual experience and teaches people that they can't say no. Then you're left feeling a multitude of bad emotions after giving in.

[@Fr3nchfrii]

No one taught me that I don't owe anyone sex no matter what until I was 28. Until then I thought if I was into it, made out, and then didn't want to anymore within the process of getting to "the act", I had to go through with it. This has lead to a lot of trauma I'm still working through. I thought I had to do it once it started, so it's technically on me for traumatizing myself in more than a few instances. I hope you're finding or have found peace within yourself, that your healing journey is full of validation, and that you are kind to yourself. Love and light to you.

[@anamatherne461]

As a lifelong Christian, I want to apologize for the harm that this sect of my religion has caused you and many others. I feel that, especially with the help of the patriarchy, that many Christians (and abusers who claim to be Christian) misinterpret and perpetuate that verse about not withholding sex. The way they are pushing their false interpretation is incredibly beyond harmful, and I am so very sorry. We aren't all like that, but it's 100% a problematic belief. Also, thank you too Mickey for your content! Obviously, I don't agree with everything; but you've really helped me to understand how harmful this religion can be and deconstruct the harmful beliefs I've been taught. God loves us and would not ever suggest that we allow ourselves to be abused. Again, I am so sorry for people like them who misrepresent God and perpetuate so much harm😔 it is them who should be ashamed

[@Fr3nchfrii]

@@anamatherne461 thank you for being empathetic and kind. It is way more than just that verse that's shamed and beat into kids as our brains are developing and we are learning about the environment around us. It's deeply ingrained in how we perceive everything and our nervous systems in constant overdrive cause all sorts of various chemical changes that I'm not sure can ever fully heal. Despite how drastically different the episodes I have are they are still all consuming and there is a constant sense of fear. I don't think anyone should be ashamed. The monsters had to be created and I honestly believe they suffer worse than I ever have. They will face themselves and that's going to suck for them. I might cry everyday but I have love in my life. That's not something I feel like they can say for themselves.

[@gabiluch87]

I have a feeling that Morgan is doing a lot more of compromising than Paul is...

[@venusarachnid7641]

This is my experience in a patriarchal religion: The man will decide that whatever he thinks or feels he is entitled to is “biblical.” The woman has to be submissive and go along with it. It seems very easy to blame a bad marriage on premarital sex.

[@polydactylblackcat2218]

All their advice is bad, but HOLLY EFF that last bit about "just do it even when you don't want to because your partner WILL 100% want it" is the worst of it all. There are sooo many things wrong with that thinking. If you don't want to have sex that is the end of the discussion and if anyone tries to push the conversation further that is COERCION which is NOT consent!!!

[@rowanquynn9964]

Mickey from issues for queer people to fundie trauma you work very hard to create a safe and educational environment on your channel. It's awesome watching your videos and feeling like I'm learning (and trauma from growing up Christian is being validated). Thank you. And as a member of the ace community, thank you for allowing us to have a voice over here, we really value you

[@jaquellae]

Did anyone else catch Paul's body language when Morgan brought up that she'd had sex with someone else (presumably before their relationship)? It just triggered a couple of red flags for me.

[@timnewman1172]

A parade of red flags...

[@gabiluch87]

Yup He's definitely not OK with it

[@amyyyamy]

Every single time

[@515aleon]

She's not forgiven in his eyes. I don't think it's so much cause god, it's cause it's another man.

[@timnewman1172]

@@515aleon they so desparately need to see a QUALIFIED therapist, this WILL destroy their marriage if they continue down this path!

[@SarelleSirius]

It’s so refreshing to hear someone say vulva instead of vagina.

[@LottieDeLuscious]

Not Paul rocking back and forth while Morgan is speaking about sleeping with someone else

[@ebbidibebbidiboo2640]

Ohhhh my god I can't believe that 😂 did not realise until you pointed that out!!!😮

[@Hair8Metal8Karen]

He looked like such a petulant child there.

[@sarahruiz6553]

@@Hair8Metal8Karen cause he is one

[@imjustthisgirlok]

The way they talk about sex always makes me go "Are we... Are we talking about the same thing?"

[@jklovesdogs7]

I'm aroace and I found it very validating to hear you talk about how sex and intimacy is not a mandatory part of the human experience 👏👏👏

[@sweetpea2604]

I feel like Morgan’s comments about sex & intimacy being mandatory & if you don’t give your partner sex than you are deemed selfish was specifically targeting the Asexual community 38:59

[@emilybarclay8831]

@@sweetpea2604 probably not because I doubt she even knows that asexuality is a thing. She’s not the sort to research these things. Those are just classic fundie talking points

[@net_has]

“you have to be selfless in your love…unless that selflessness means going without sex cause your partner doesn’t want it. In that case selfishness is fine and they’re the one who needs to change”

[@kafrink]

It’s so jarring that this is coming from the same institution that doesn’t allow divorce It’s so scary that people are thrown together, never having lived together, usually not having actually known each other that long, usually very young, and ALSO BEING TAUGHT ALL THIS DAMAGING ABUSIVE STUFF AB SX are then not allowed to get out when it goes south. Do they just hope that God will magically make ppl get along? Like when ur married ur suddenly infinitely happy and nothing will ever changed? Horrifying.

[@heatheranastasiu]

Holy crap, they said the quiet part out loud, about how “withholding” is selfish. I was awash with guilt my entire 20 year marriage because of this toxic purity culture bs. Finally left him and came out, thank you for your videos as I continue deconstructing

[@brendasmith7345]

PLEASE don’t stop these videos! They are both so incredibly toxic and it seems they are getting worse and worse and worse. The arrogance is gross- mixed with the victim mentality is next level!

[@morgianasartre6709]

They're really not that bad if you actually listen to what they are saying instead of blindly agreeing with other people who take issue with their religion and prescribe them more extreme views just for the sake of having entertaining content.

[@Kudeshka]

As a Christian I really cant stand them I listened to some of the videos and just could no longer digest their content its so triggering they have the maturity of a 5 year old

[@lordzoe4072]

@@morgianasartre6709 they really are the bad but ok..

[@morgianasartre6709]

@@lordzoe4072 If you think they are that bad then you must have lead a VERY sheltered life so far. Those two are as average as it gets.

[@lordzoe4072]

@@morgianasartre6709 average doesn’t mean good tf. Just because they are better than other radical Christian’s that does not mean that what they are doing should be tolerated.

[@arvinllewellyn2708]

I cannot thank you enough for the content you make. As an afab person deconstruction from a fundamentalist christian religion I cant express how much your videos have helped me feel safe and validated. I'm not making things up, this culture is harmful and my trauma is valid, I learned that from you. Thank you so much Mickey

[@IngeDingy]

Same here. Mickey’s videos have helped me process religious trauma and deconstruction so well.

[@maneckineckbeard1749]

THANK YOU SO MUCH for telling this truth: sex doesn't always look (or sound) sexy...especially if your definition of "sexy" involves only traditionally male heteronormativity!! IMHO, far too many people feel disappointed when IRL sex doesn't live up to the ridiculous standards set by hetero, male-centric porn! The "fart noises," and having to say perfectly normal stuff like "Ow, your elbow is digging into me" or "My leg is falling asleep," etc, is a totally normal part of sex! And yeah- taking care of oneself is a perfectly normal, pleasurable experience that can be about pleasing one's partner...but does NOT have to be! Sometimes just having some alone time with yourself is what you want...and that's just fine, period!

[@thebrivideowatcher]

Consent (enthusiastic) is so sexy! Also anecdotal advice: my partner was abused in their previous relationship, and letting them set the pace really helped build that trust and comfort surrounding sex.

[@JG-bl3bj]

Why is it always the woman (especially in these religious relationships) that have to be "selfless" and have sex with your partner even when you're not wanting it? Why is the man not being selfless in understanding why she doesn't want to have sex with him? Also major thing to unpack: why are you still willing to have sex with your partner when it's clear they don't want it??

[@AccordingToWillow]

“it’s not about violating consent, it’s about not having a consent to violate in the first place”

[@authenticrosedoodles9268]

as an asexual person i really appreciate how you say "if sexual activity is important to you" and things of that nature, people don't always take into account that not everybody cares for it.

[@a.b.5321]

My husband and I both had several partners before we met, myself having twice as many as he had. What we realized is that we are very compatible. There was nothing to work through. It was just like - wow, I want sex with you forever. We didn't have inhibitions. It was all great. There is no jealousy about past partners. We actually laugh together at many of our experiences before getting together. My husband thought it was pretty cool I had more experience because I was able to teach him things and get him out of his shell. I have had things to work through, personally, but not in my marriage in the bedroom, and certainly not as a result of having had sex with others before marriage. This is just a classic assumption made by people who have no clue. Thats not to say that some people maybe have issues to work through? But i presume most of the time it is an incompatible, jealous partner (Paul and his need to forgive Morgan for her prior "transgressions"). who causes the issue. Their description of what my experience has been like couldn't be more wrong.

[@MacKillens]

45:26 This is the passage that the elders in my childhood fundamentalist church read to my mother after she ran to them for help when my bio dad r*ped her. They justified his crime (which wasn’t officially a crime yet, because it was the 1970s) and said it wouldn’t have happened if she was a properly submissive wife and how dare she withhold her body from her husband! This doctrine (most doctrine, if we’re being honest) is so harmful to everyone who subscribes to it, but especially to the women and children.

[@agnes2769]

"Self-discovery" is a sleep-aide for me. My husband is usually in the other room but fully aware and supportive of what I'm doing lol.

[@Beccamae75]

That's cool!

[@racheld6338]

I do it because it helps my migraines and tension headaches because it relaxes my body and nervous system! Same here, husband fully aware and supportive!

[@teuntje_esle]

Omg damn. The bit around 32 minutes in when you're talking about excessively analyzing things and fear and anxiety and all that and how that is linked to these types of cultures blew my mind, cause I struggle with that and I've been raised fundie christian and I've never heard anyone link that in this way together until now and just wow. Something suddenly clicked in my brain. Thank you!

[@moniquemichelleramos]

My ex used to suggest I be "selfless" when I didn't want sex. 🙃 Thank you for validating why that always felt gross to me.

[@ShallaGreen]

I think selfless love would be being considerate of the fact that your partner doesn't want to have sex. They're sick, they're down, they're just not feeling it today - selfless love would be honoring that

[@annikkirahko6714]

As someone who deals with a lot of sexual trauma and am working to fight off a lot of negative connotations that sex has for me these videos are super helpful. It’s so hard to try and learn that my body and sexual happiness matter cause I grew up experiencing CSA and an extreme dose of purity culture and it’s been super hard. My partner is wonderful and has been super helpful but I’m really glad people like you make content like this for people like me

[@heyidaroo]

Me whenever I watch these two talk: “but it’s *non-christians* who are obsessed with sex?”

[@kristingeater]

Mickey, as a deconstructing Ex-vangelical, I am so grateful for your channel. I used to beat myself up for being "selfish" when I didn't feel like having sex with my husband. Our Bible study teachers actually told us to "be available for your husband." I have an awesome husband who is totally fine if I'm not into it at the moment, but I would always put so much pressure on myself that I had to do it when my husband wanted it to "honor God." It was so toxic, and I am still working through it in therapy.

[@Damsel_in_This_Dress]

I'm so sorry you went through that. I knew there was a lot of drivel aimed at Christian women in books and such, but I never realised how much until I started reading 'The Great Sex Rescue', which brings to light (and challenges) the immensely toxic attitudes surrounding sex and relationships in the church, which the church has normalized. These authors and church pastors lied to so many people, and caused so much harm. The basis of their faith was rooted in fear and guilt, and was predominantly about men. It's horrifying and tragic that women were dehumanized to no more than objects used for their husband's sexual pleasure, all in the name of God. I don't go to church anymore, but I do consider myself a Christian, my faith is an important part of my life, and it is appalling and saddening the way that the church has used and abused women. I don't believe that God ever intended it to be this way. I hope you find healing and peace.

[@kristingeater]

@@Damsel_in_This_Dress Thank you! Your words are so validating. It's a work-in-progress, but I find that I am enjoying the process.

[@rachel_sj]

The Best Saturdays are the Mickey Atkins Saturdays with her reacting to Extremely Opinionated Religious Influencers! 😁

[@rachel_sj]

Mickey giving my comment a heart absolutely MADE my weekend!! 😍😂

[@vintagearisen]

I like to call them Christians Uploading Nonhelpful Trash

[@vixen205]

As a recently minor turned adult, who’s been assaulted by a previous partner and an adult, hearing “your partner has a right to your body” hurts a lot. I’ve been diagnosed with BPD and went unmedicated and completely ignored during those times. After going to therapy and starting DBT I’ve finally gotten better in a lot of aspects but I still struggle! My partner is very reassuring and they’re very kind, and my therapist is also kind. Me and my partner can adventure together, laugh and joke, and know how to love and pleasure eachother. Our communication is always open, and always has room for jokes and smiles. We are healthy and understand we’re both human. People like my s/o are out there and I was raised believing relationships and sex wasn’t supposed to be like that because of people like Paul. No one owes anyone ANYTHING. It’s such a harmful thing to say especially for victims or recovering victims. You are NOT SELFISH for not consenting. It’s okay to not want sex. It’s okay to want to have sex everyday. All of its okay as long as it’s healthy for you and your partner and both parties are into it. For anyone struggling or recovering, whether you’re Christian or not, you are strong. Religion doesn’t define your autonomy and self worth or love. True love and care is caring for your partner regardless if they want sex or not ❤

[@Pennydeadful]

“We are the sex Christians” 😂 I shouldn’t have had a mouth full of coffee when you said that.

[@ab6525]

As an asexual person, the idea that I would "owe" a potential spouse sex is the single biggest reason that I was terrified of dating and relationships when I was younger. Glad to know that I'm not crazy for feeling that way.

[@Selene_Rosara]

The idea that "self-discovery" should only be done with your partner is further gatekeeping a person's own sexual pleasure. Usually, it's used to keep women or fem presenting people from exploring themselves because "that's your future husband's property" or some such nonsense.

[@breedlejuice8691]

I personally use “self discovery” as a mood regulator, sleep aid, and pain reliever for menstrual cramps. It’s super helpful :)

[@racheld6338]

Haha same, I use it for migraines and tension headaches!

[@teriboudreaux6743]

She is so right about purpetuating the just lying there and taking it mentality as being dangerous. I am a sa survivor. Im a women that was jumped by 4 "men" in my mid 20s. I was violently assaulted by these for lack of a better word "men" for days. I barely escaped with my life. I am almost 40 and been with my partner for 4 yrs now. He knows what happened to me in very graphic detail. He knows im still very much on shaky ground when it comes to intimacy. For the most part my mind is able to separate intimacy with my partner from everything that happened but sometimes my body will have a mind of its own. Ive told him very early on to watch for signs i may be lapsing into a flashback bc if I ever felt unsafe during sex, i wouldnt know what i would be capable of. Ive lashed out violently a few times before i was able to bring myself back to the present. Of course that made me feel terrible but he loves me selflessly. He would never dream of putting a hair over a boundary line. If he was to take this couples advice, he would more than likely be dead and id be heading to prison. You dont play with peoples minds and emotions and bodies. What they were saying made me feel extremely icky inside. Asking your partner to just do it feels like r*pe to me. I just cant with these people.

[@meowiestwo]

as a non-binary afab person i really appreciate how inclusive you were in your language here, thank you for that

[@JeddtheJedi]

Fundie Fridays' recent video on Paul and Morgan was so good. Paul is a truly terrifying man.

[@theanxiousace3783]

Racist, homophobic, fatphobic, misogynistic. Man is really the whole package, the epitome of Christian bigotry distilled into one scrawny string bean of a dude.

[@JeddtheJedi]

@@theanxiousace3783 Who clearly thinks he's hot shit

[@Sun-du6po]

The channel has 2 videos, should i watch the first one first?

[@JeddtheJedi]

@@Sun-du6po I think it helps, but the new one also recaps both Paul and Morgan's respective origins, so it's not a must.

[@Sun-du6po]

@@JeddtheJedi okay thanks!

[@carmenscholl6583]

Your words are so healing. I was in a relationship where the "U owe me Sex otherwise U dont Love me" thing was traumatising and what you Said litterly Made me cry, because i felt Heard. Thank U

[@foreverwander0320]

As a married woman in her 40s who grew up in purity culture and still struggles with pain, shame, and trauma surrounding sex… I wish that the people who teach that stuff would have the humility to learn something, even admit they were wrong.

[@Beccamae75]

I'm in my 40s as well and still deal with the things u deal with surrounding sex as well.

[@carrieanna4847]

They of course omit the issue of someone having sex with someone who doesn’t want it is a different kind of Fd up. Duty sex, coerced consent shouldn’t be ok, shouldn’t be a thing at all!

[@catw461]

I do think porn does feed into the concept that sex is performative and women (even girls) are to be consumed. I also think it propagates violence against women, especially when consumed by younger people. It reinforces the idea that girls that they should accept this kind of treatment, and to boys that a "real man" wants that kind of sex. It also typically jumps over the topic of concent. Not all porn is like this, but a lot is.

[@marahbmusic]

Sis, went offff! I am here for it. They are so wild -- this channel is extremely validating!

[@lizabethhampton4537]

They don't care if the AFAB partner feels fear and shame and just submits and looks sexy for the AMAB partner. In fact, that's a feature, not a bug

[@morgancollins8631]

wow, i’ve never made the connection that my anxiety comes from my religious upbringing. i’ve been watching your videos a lot recently and it’s honestly been healing my inner child a lot. thank you for your content❤️

[@DaangMel]

This is my first video of yours I’ve seen and YESSS! I’m 30, was a Christian for 28 years of my life and have deconstructed for two years. Purity culture is REAL and I really appreciate you making this content. I wish I found it 10 years ago ❤

[@j.c.2240]

These two are funny! On a more serious note, one of my religions holds sexual pleasure to be sacred. To have sex when you don't want to would be an unacceptable violation of yourself, and for someone to demand it would also be an unforgivable act. Also, ignoring one's own sexual needs is not selfless, that's called being a doormat. Selfless love is working extra hours to reduce your partner's financial stress. Selfless love is knowing when a decision is not a "both of us" decision and backing off from it. Selfless love is trying to understand any disability your partner has to better support them.

[@someonesomeone3729]

whatever religion you are in is pretty sick, happy to see other religions that have vastly different beliefs than this one that’s unfortunately so influential in america and other places

[@j.c.2240]

@@someonesomeone3729 We are also forbidden from proselytizing. If asked we may answer, but otherwise it's live and let live

[@GreenGorgeousness]

So.... Can we get a name drop for that religion or is it a closed practice?

[@j.c.2240]

@@GreenGorgeousness I am a practicing Wiccan as well as a Buddhist. Though I'm still a novice in these religions, I closely study the values they hold and read voraciously on the subjects. It should be known that both these religions are wide, and not every variation is the same.

[@Bokatisha1234]

You are SO NICE in these reactions. Every time Paul insisted on making a funny noise to lighten the mood because he hates being serious about sex I wanted to grab his little neck and shake.

[@prairieartemis]

I have always appreciated the inclusive language from Mickey but felt especially seen this week by this week's language that validates my feelings as a sex-indifferent asexual! 💜 And it's ironic how sex is shameful outside of marriage but if you don't have sex in your (heterosexual) marriage, are you even married? Maybe the rest of the world desires a partner for more than a "morally-acceptable" sexual object.

[@Seeker0fTruth]

Love when you break down this toxic and damaging advice!! So helpful!!! ❤❤❤

[@brookep4464]

nothing makes me happier inside than morgan calling me a heathen 😂😂😂 please please please make heathen merch i desperately need it

[@beyondallmeasure]

Shame is such a huge part of it. So glad I got out

[@jenasciaromero16]

Omg I can’t, do yk how painful “selfless sex” can be? It is terrible and I can’t even believe a woman is propagating these ideas

[@racheld6338]

Painful physically (not warmed up, lubricated) and emotionally!