Is Erotica Bad for Your Mental Health? | Girl Defined is MAD About Colleen Hoover

[@sunolili862]

Also "you'll get satisfaction from god that you won't get from Colleen Hoover books" sounds like she's telling me jesus is a better smut writer than Colleen Hoover

[@breannankolb]

Jesus may have been a carpenter by trade but he was layin that pipe IFYAKNOWHATIMSAYIN

[@hithere5136]

Almost anyone is a better writer than Colleen Hoover

[@tianasparklez]

honestly i think jesus would write better than her but that’s besides the point 💀

[@MirrorNo]

Have you ever read Song Of Solomon? Lol

[@madalice5134]

​@@breannankolb Holy shit! 😂😂😂

[@theothermorgan]

Hoover romanticizes abuse and engages in random woman hate in her books. And she isn't a good writer. Those aspects of her work are far more harmful than sex scenes.

[@lilacflower2317]

came here to try to say this, but you did better than I ever could have!

[@gabiluch87]

Exactly!

[@muggleintheupsidedown]

I’m with you lol

[@kittyythecat]

I like the genres, toxic smutty relationships but the way Colleen does it is so bad..... It's all the same formula instead of bringing a different type of character in those situations.

[@meggiekay5958]

She also tried to silence the woman who came forward with allegations against Hoover's son.

[@zombie.xo333]

Colleen Hoover is an objectively terrible writer with a breading kink who’s books focus on very abusive relationships but in a romanticize the abuse kind of way. There are A lot of reasons to dislike Hoover the mere fact that she writes smut is not one of them

[@zombie.xo333]

breeding ** sorry I’m dyslexic 😂

[@pris1378]

@@zombie.xo333breading kink gives a hilarious mental image, though!

[@sarahneubert3377]

I was gonna say. I’m more offended that so many people like her books in general. I find her writing and storytelling to be atrocious. Her books are all Gone Girl wanna bes.

[@shy2infinity]

@@sarahneubert3377 the fact that she takes up a whole shelf in my local wal-mart is offensive 😅

[@erwolf]

Actually check the comment section to see if this was mentioned. There are reasons not support the author, but oh-la-la stuff is far from one. It has been concerning seeing the increase in books romanticizing abuse and controlling relationships. Even more so that these same books are getting high rankings and no trigger warnings. Only recently learned about a sub-genre called Dark Romance and slowly coming by the Apha-Omega romance. Neither of which I'm a fan of, and would like to avoid when possible.

[@cary1063]

I’ve heard some valid criticisms of Colleen’s work so I’m not gonna defend the lady but it’s so funny that Bethy can rave about Song of Solomon but has such a disdain for smut 😭

[@sunolili862]

Eh, book of Solomon is far from graphic but it's weird she acts like just reading about sex anywhere outside of bible will lead you to sin. Ok but what if book of Solomon makes me horny should i stop reading the bible then lol

[@richelleeasley6492]

I can't say I know any Christians who actually know the Bible AND understand the Bible

[@Parrot5884]

Seriously! She lives her life according to a book that talks graphically about a man's ejaculate by comparing it to horse semen. Like, girl, sit down!

[@irisl4498]

Ah, but the Song of Solomon is smut in a God honoring way

[@catherinemccormick3184]

@@irisl4498puts a new spin on “praise kink”

[@Tareltonlives]

Of course Bethy's only problem is that there's sex. She's totally fine with the misogyny of course.

[@shadygirlxoxo]

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@michaelkeller5555]

And romanticization of abuse and stalking

[@lowbatterylifestyle7025]

41:49 I find it ironic how they are speaking about the danger of being obsessive about a book and it never occurs to them that this is how they treat the Bible and religion.

[@alyssabrown-carleton6173]

Because of reasons

[@LucaPariah]

The sad thing is, God and the Bible are the exception regarding obsession. It’s encouraged to be obsessed with Christianity, and being focused on anything else remotely close to that is considered a sin and/or problematic behavior.

[@PurelyCoincidental]

If God's concerned about his publishing numbers, he should put out a new book every year.

[@amanda27miller]

This gave me a genuine chuckle! 😂

[@headfangs]

he's competing with George RR Martin for who can take longer to publish a sequel

[@dwdillydally]

Jesus, James Patterson's latest co-author!

[@tbear8839]

Omg 😂😂😂😂

[@MISNM0]

❤❤❤❤❤

[@Link-dx1lx]

I appreciate erotica but I beg everyone to find something better than Colleen Hover. The way she portrays relationship is extremely unhealthy (most of them include the love interest aussaulting someone and being excused) and on top of that her plots, writing and characters are all extremely interchangeable, badly constructed and plain crap. Also she seems to be really into forced pregnancy which icks me the hell out

[@jenniferbelveal4331]

... None of which registered to the GIRLS (Defined). They don't have to read anything they don't want to, of course- but they sure as heck want to talk about it, which to me suggests, 'Hey, you need to at least go look at some reviews, a synopsis maybe, to figure out what it is that you are actually railing against.' NO- that's never been a requirement they have for themselves. Thanks for doing the leg work, by the way; just this comment did so much more to sway me against these books than anything Kristen and Bethy have ever said.

[@piapedersen]

Absolutely agree with this.

[@maggiewinnike7309]

This! There are some really great erotica authors out there that are better writers and aren't terrible people.

[@llynxfyremusic]

One of her books includes a man burning a woman's house down and the woman is the one who apologises for being angry about it. Repulsive.

[@muggleintheupsidedown]

100000000%

[@juiceboxaster8]

I'm waiting for the day these women discover that AO3 exists.

[@darkstarr984]

I know. I would love to just shock them with the Moby Dick fanfiction I read on there, lol.

[@aliendeathrocker]

Hell yeah, AO3 would blow their minds 😂

[@llynxfyremusic]

Oh no they would pull a Titan and spontaneously implode.

[@gh0stcup]

I need them to read my favourite Steddie fics, I'm sure they'll love the popular jock being "corrupted" by a perceived satanic homosexual metalhead

[@FunkyLittlePoptart]

I have a rec for them. It's bottom!Jesus/top!Judas... Or possibly the one that's Jesus/Trump. They might enjoy that one too.

[@michaelasteele77]

as an ex-catholic, getting into reading fanfiction in high school was honestly crucial in getting out of the shame/guilt headspace

[@darkstarr984]

Fanfiction really helped me get away from homophobic ideologies. It sounds weird with the fact that yes, a lot of yaoi fans do fetishize gay men, but reading and writing gay ships, especially the more romantic stories and long term relationship ones made everything so normal, and oddly helped me, with what I knew about abusive vs normal romantic relationships from my family, to understand and respect people I was otherwise being taught to treat like they’re broken and need Jesus.

[@MissCaraMint]

Interesting. I wasn’t raised very religious or in a sex negative environment, and I didn’t really read that much smut growing up. I guess because it wasn’t as taboo?

[@MissCaraMint]

@darkstarr984 I wouldn’t have ever guessed it could be that helpful. Great!

[@Sylvi3D]

Heh, all these comments about Colleen Hoover's writing remind me of the Fifty Shades discussion (ie. the kink community begging everyone to read better BDSM than that) and make me wonder why it's always the low quality smut/kink that becomes famous. And yes, some of the best smut is on AO3.

[@moeshmoe8494]

So true I find better stories on ao3 than anywhere else.

[@alyssabrown-carleton6173]

They're easy reads? I don't know, I've never read CoHo books and only read the first 2 fifty shades. I love smutty books, but hers don't interest me

[@MissCaraMint]

Well with Fifty Shades it’s because it started as fan fiction. By the time it was published it already had a fan base which made it more visible than other comparable books. Once popular it became more socially acceptable to read, making it an easily justifiable pick for someone concerned about reading smut. It became the smut that was ok. Probably also because the themes are still very regressive and traditional so it didn’t challenge to many of the boundaries that these people had. Like it’s about a pure virgin who ends up marrying (and fixing) the first guy she fucks. I bet the case is very similar with Colleen.

[@corvidae_s]

As someone who jokes that my "second language is fundamentalist" cause I grew up in that world, I can confidently that there's no such thing as morally gray to them. To be gray is to be "luke warm" and god hates luke warm.

[@doctordcal683]

How do you know what God hates? It's a lot to assume.

[@mousling333]

​@@doctordcal683 op is saying that's what they were taught; to hold a neutral stance on something that can be seen as morally bankrupt is to be agreeing with that thing. in fundamentalist Christianity, its typically taught that you MUST be vigilant about being a good Christian and preaching your religion others. to be neutral about faith is to not have faith at all in their eyes.

[@jclyntoledo]

Morally gray reminds me of that other persons youtube channel who left Christianity after a bad church experience.

[@justaspiral13]

What did Luke Warm ever do to Him? 😔 (jk)

[@EtamirTheDemiDeer]

About to start writing smut books under the name Mora Lee Graye or smth

[@FeministCatLadySpinster]

It rings a bit false when you (well, I guess it's just Bethany) talk about sex *all the time* ... and then deem erotica bad. There are no rules in marriage, but there are rules. 🙃

[@lacey892]

Pretty indicative of Christianity in general. 'God offers unconditional love... but there are conditions.'

[@nataliepaad1869]

Exactly. And I may be reading too much into it, but they kinda come off as jealous over CH's popularity here.

[@rsterbin]

It's because erotica is only concerned with what the reader finds arousing, whereas Bethany's terrible overshares are about using arousal to serve Christian patriarchy.

[@ruggedascent]

Fun fact: When I worked at a bookstore, the Bible was the most stolen book by far. We had to move the religion and spirituality section to be right across from the cash registers to keep them in view.

[@honestlythough7250]

Honestly im surprised churches dont just give out bibles. A lot of them are big enough to absorb the publication costs and its not like they have to pay the author 🤷🏾‍♀️

[@LizzylovesLobo]

@@honestlythough7250ive never been to a church that doesnt have free bibles? i think if anything u can just go to the denomination u want because i think different denominations use different translations/versions. I’ve donated so many free bibles but ive only been to churches of a few denominations so maybe its not that way across the board

[@hnybee113]

Thanks hilarious

[@FeelTheRainOnYourSkin]

​@@honestlythough7250THAT IS HONESTLY A GREAT IDEA!

[@kandyappleview]

​@honestlythough7250 the price range for bibles is so huge tho. When I worked at a bookstore in the early 2000-2010s, you could get a simple paperback for like $15-25, but study, theme, and leather bound bibles could get upwards of $99+. And again, that was a long time ago. Can't imagine what inflation has done to the prices. Ppl stole those expensive ones often.

[@CaptainPeregrin]

Clearly, neither of them have read Tolkien (I wouldn't be surprised if they came from a family who banned any stories with magic, even ones from Christian authors). Tolkien's essay "On Fairy Stories" basically explores the concept of fiction in general, and how "escapism" can be a good thing that opens the reader's mind to new possibilities.

[@PurelyCoincidental]

Oh, you don't want people to be able to think of new possibilities on their own. Free thinking is dangerous. (/sarcasm)

[@flyingspagbowl6629]

You know last week when I saw their video pop up I thought “maybe girl defined has a good take for once. Maybe they don’t like how Colleen Hoovers books perpetuate abuse.” But no, of course not

[@opheliaoftheripples9472]

You hit the nail on the head with the constant hypervigilance leading to shame-and-repent cycles. SO glad to be out of this abusive web. Hate these women for propagating it, hope their victims can find their own truth and relief. Great video!

[@eljayism]

Colleen Hoover is godawful, but not for the reasons GD dislike her...

[@redhead3322]

Can’t believe they’re not supporting the critically low Bible sales and reading scripture off their phone.

[@kj6731]

Lollllll I didn’t even notice that but you’re right 😂 If they’re so worried about a several thousand year old holy text being competitive with romance fiction then they oughta pull out a physical copy and plug it on the channel. At least

[@alisafried8646]

Also, how many Bibles does one need? I don't know much about Bibles, but I'm pretty sure they are all basically the same... at least close enough to not need to keep buying them

[@kj6731]

@@alisafried8646 growing up I personally owned four complete Bibles and had four to five abridged versions with just the psalms and New Testament. I got different versions at different ages. The text itself doesn’t change but there’s usually footnotes and commentary added into the margins and that can be adjusted for different age ranges. Also you’d get new versions for aesthetic purposes (you want to carry a pink leather version to youth group) and there’s no approved way to dispose of old Bibles so you just gotta keep em forever even if they’re falling apart 😐 Wow in hindsight being Christian as a child was a trip and a half.

[@alisafried8646]

@kj6731 thank you for sharing! I obviously did not think about those things. There is something very "cute" about wanting a specific Bible to take to youth group for aesthetic reasons- I'm picturing this very much like a new fad or trend. Instead of a Stanley cup, wanting this specific leather-bound pink Bible.

[@alim.9801]

​@@alisafried8646 yknow I haven't seen this happen personally but I wouldn't be surprised if the bibles people bring to church or youth group become like almost status symbols 😂

[@redhead3322]

Okay only 12 min in, but like as a Christian I can tell you that I’ve had the same Bible since I was like 12. And if I want a different translation I just Google it bc the Bible is free online. I’m not buying a Bible every year but I buy tons of other books (including spicy ones). The fact that I’m not buying a Bible is not at all indicative my faith 😂

[@corimiller8782]

We read Too Late by Colleen Hoover for a book club. I hated it. Girl... You do not need a trauma bonded man or a baby. You need therapy. I am pro-smut but anti-Colleen Hoover. 😂

[@Hair8Metal8Karen]

Can we hashtag I am pro-smut but anti Colleen Hoover?

[@pattamon9432]

Does erotica and smut means the same thing? I see it constantly used interchangeably

[@heatherofhyrule9050]

@@pattamon9432i have always taken erotica as the more appropriate category but smut is more of an internet slang thing, they’re basically the same thing from my understanding

[@corimiller8782]

@@pattamon9432 yes. The two are pretty interchangeable. I think some try to differentiate erotica as being more high brow and literary than smut. But I've always used them in the same way.

[@floreya67]

Same! I read smutty fanfic on the regular, but Colleen Hoover is too toxic for me.

[@TheAwesomeness345]

nothing against erotica, but Collen Hoover romanticizes relationship abuse, and I don't think it's good to be reading

[@NiveaCow]

Yeah, but that's how it works. Healthy relationships aren't very fun to read about. I remember when everybody was against Twillight, cause it teaches bad values to young girls. Yeah, all my friends who grew up loving Twillight are in perfectly fine relationships. I like Fast and Furious. But I drive my car pretty boringly. I love shooter games. I would not like to go to war. Cause people understand the difference between escapism fantasy and real life.

[@a-garden-of-worlds]

I mean I've never read anything by that author myself, but if you enjoy it and understand that what is in the text shouldn't be replicated in real life then you can read whatever you want. All it takes is the ability to think critically and understand the difference between reality and fiction.

[@afterly]

It's fiction, it's not real. If you're basing reality on things you read in fiction that's a you problem. ETA: lynn4840 and a-garden-of-worlds have a much better and more succinct response to my stance on it. i'm not replying to any comments so if you feel the need to reply to me don't bother

[@xLiLlyx98]

​@@NiveaCowI mean, this could go either way. I've heard people say they idealized toxic people and relationships heavily because of the media they grew up with, and perhaps coupled with no trusted grownups to discuss how it should actually be, you just go for what fiction portrays to you. 🤷

[@jacobus57]

Exactly. Giving it a pass is not okay, and "healthy" relationships are always defined by full mutual consent, ESPECIALLY those incorporating power dynamics. This was my major beef with the execrable 50 Shades. That crap was NOT about healthy mutual negotiated kink; it was about an abused man who became a very brutal abuser, but it's what has now infused the mind of the average stupid bear who doesn't know any better, and it's fecking dangerous. Anyone who doesn't know Jack about kink needs to learn the meaning of SSC and RACK.

[@briannatrent4149]

if they think colleen hoover is ✨spicy✨ wait until they hear about Song of Solomon...

[@piros100]

bethy constantly talks about it, but it's clear ahe doesn't understand it... 🤣🤣🤣

[@rebeccat9389]

Thank you 👏👏👏

[@annet4611]

Oh that Thanksgiving clip... Bethany's content screams "Look, I have sex! I'm desired!". And you know, normally when you're content with this or that aspect of your life, you don't have the need to scream about that every other second.

[@kath1017]

They said all that just to reinforce the patriarchal mindset that dominates these spaces. Where sexual pleasure has to be centered around men's sexual desires and pleasure. So reading a smutty romance novel and getting some pleasure from outside of that context freaks them out a bit because male sexual desires are not centered.

[@denee940]

if they read gay romance where the romance is all about men, their brains might implode...

[@sarahneedstowork106]

I would reccomend that people who want smutty books go for better authors

[@hidansektas]

ao3 is better than 99% of stuff on booktok. booktok is creepy

[@OvenFreshBread]

​@@niamhm4109 I'm more a fanfic reader when it comes to smut but I'd recommend Abigail Barnette's books

[@blackgirlreading]

​@@niamhm4109 If you like short and spicy, Lee Jacquot has a standalone series of novellas with different tropes and characters and her spice is really good, Molly Doyle's Scream for Us duology is festive but dark and really spicy, Harley Laroux has The Dare and the Losers Duet which are interconnected very kinky, Losers duet is reverse harem so *group scenes* if you like more than one guy. If you're looking for something gay, Being Hospitable by Meka James is a sapphic black romance that's short and very spicy. If you're looking for something between 2 men, Onley James has an extremely steamy dark romance series. If you like a mix of gay and straight in a series A Touch of Taboo series by Katee Robert and Priest series by Sierra Simone. I have more if you're interested. I read a lot of romance 🙈

[@rhokesh4391]

... or just AO3^^°

[@gaslight.gatekeep.girlboss6476]

@@rhokesh4391 Literally, I've found way better smut (better written, good grammar, good worldbuilding, no abuse or unhealthy behaviours) in AO3 than all the booktok books istg

[@TheRoseMirror]

I would've loved them to actually read Colleen Hoover because, outside of the smut, I fully believe the way she writes men would be right up their alley (derogatory).

[@deathby1000cats]

I primarily read dark romance, so I’m no stranger to toxic, very-not-okay-in-real-life situations being romanticized. But there’s a BIG difference between something being presented as normal and something being presented as a fantasy.

[@mikaylareina3988]

Do you have any books you would recommend to someone just getting into this genre?

[@Marzkep]

Careful with this question.. how dark do you want it? 😅

[@theConcernedWyvern]

​@@mikaylareina3988 honestly, ao3 is free and can help you dip your toes in. There is a lot of Fandom there, but you can find so much good stuff that is original. You can block tags you don't like or seek out ones you do and search by certain relationship categories and maturity ratings.

[@theConcernedWyvern]

I read and write dark romance and this is absolutely true. Something about the way Hoover writes presents it in such a gross manner. Like she thinks this is acceptable or okay in a non-fictional relationship. A lot of published "dark romance" feels this way to me and I can never put my finger on it. There's always this attitude of "oh it's fine he's just emotionally damaged!" Or "I can fix him" that permeates a lot romance like hers. It's something deeper than the characters or scenarios themselves.

[@EmilyLMcArthur]

In their episode about the movie Redeeming Love, they posed the idea that a romantic movie could cause Christian viewers to be dissatisfied with their husband because he isn't like a character in a fictional movie. They were dead serious. Also want to add I left the faith EXACTLY because I didn't want to live in a box under rules. Mickey, would love to see you roast Scott and Kelli, they're worse than Girl Defined just have way less followers so less known

[@R0mbVs]

She shouldn't then. People like Girl Defined are parasites and they WANT you to talk about them. Literally platforming nvz1 types.

[@firebird5265]

I'd love to see someone's take on Frank peretti. He was huge during the satanic panic and caused me so much trauma

[@maggiewinnike7309]

Redeeming Love has such a poisonous message too. The main character was sold to a brothel as an extremely young child(8 or 9 iirc). Then when she's an adult a creepy ass man who couldn't take no for an answer keeps trying to get her to agree to marry him and when she is assaulted and going in an out of consciousness he gets a pastor and tricks her into marrying him on the spot and then proceeds to kidnap her and hold her hostage in his cabin until she runs away. And we're supposed to find it romantic that eventually, after hundreds of pages of this poor woman being traumatized she decides she loves him after all.

[@colleen4400]

Lordy! Does Bethy every come up for air? She hardly lets Kristen get a word in edgewise. Pretty obvious that Bethy is one frustrated woman. I'm getting a real sense of internalized rage in her. Also, this "freeing" episode of gathering all her naughty books off of her shelf, & sweeping them into a black trash back & then stuffing the bag into a random dumpster screams shame. She obviously doesn't want anyone to feel anything positive from something she's decided is a source of shame for her. She thinks wherever she is in her process must be where everyone else is, too.

[@mikaylareina3988]

Yes! I’m glad someone else noticed this too. It seems like Bethy doesn’t actually listen to Kristen when she speaks.

[@2012jordie]

Both of them seem very manic to me, almost hysterical, but especially Bethany. Their desperation to push their ideas and justify their poor life choices to themselves is palpable. I had a very repressed and mentally ill Catholic mother, and I'm certain at least one of these ladies is headed for a serious mental breakdown-- or is in one already.

[@darcyroyce]

She'd be horrified to know that some of us enjoy our sensuality unapologetically, freely, with no shame attached howsoever, with partner/s who have been briefed and are enthusiastically on board...xxx

[@tbear8839]

I 💯 percent agree. They are exhausting and scary to listen to!

[@danielladaurizio9692]

Kristen used to do most of the talking back in the days when they first started their channel but Bethany has taken the wheel from Jesus forcefully over the years and doesn't wanna give it back lol

[@vampbat12]

reminder that some abuse survivors cope through fiction and kink, which is perfectly alright and healthy. enjoying something in fiction does not mean you endorse it irl, often it’s quite the opposite.

[@theConcernedWyvern]

Yes! I do also want to say that Colleen Hoover's books are not an appropriate example of this (not sure if this is what you were referring to, but figured I'd mention if anyone was wondering). She does not allow her readers to engage with her works in a healthy, safe way and there are no appropriate warnings about it. It romanticizes abuse and she's also just a horrible writer in general. Personally, I use fiction to cope with my gender dysphoria and it has been an instrumental part of how I have discovered my identity over the years. It's a fantastic tool.

[@lorelei619]

I, for one, love the interpretation that Jesus himself was discussing booktok and smut. 😂

[@Emily-fh8en]

What is funny about the CoHo issues is her books arnt even the most smutty tradpub(traditional publishing) out there by a large margin lol

[@Stonedandbookish]

Reading keeps me grounded. Like. As someone with BPD I'm constantly seeking escape.

[@AnnaThorley]

I love that Bethy said that she found s3x really difficult due to not being educated well and yet she still puts out content including her recent stuff that is still not good education around s3x and relationships!!!!!!

[@The_Leftysaurus]

Also I get the distinct feeling they made this episode/video, whatever, specifically because they feel personally peeved that maybe possibly Colleen Hoover outsold the Bible XD Like how dare people read something that is NOT the bible, the nerve!. Honestly I felt so sad when Bethy was like 'I just threw all my books out with spice and/or romance because I don't need that temptation in my life' like... tell me you're actually quite unhappy in your relationship, without telling me. SAD.

[@damejanea.macdonald2371]

It kind of entertains me that Girl Defined are against escapism -- taking a personal moment to take a break from the complexities and uncomfortable elements of reality -- while they are all for forcing their reality to be simple by making people whose differences make them uncomfortable pretend to not exist. And the amount of difference they will accept within the two categories they arbitrarily assign people is *really* small.

[@darcyroyce]

religion is escapism, ideology is escapism...she's split off.

[@tbaby3631]

When I was religious we were told we could meditate but not to empty our mind of stress… only to meditate on God

[@RavenXWritingdesk]

They are taking it so personally that this author sold more copies than the Bible, as if they wrote it and have been dethroned. And it's a direct threat to Christianity as a whole.

[@thebackpackingbookwyrm]

** sighs in librarian ** Thanks for keeping it real as always. 😂

[@honestlythough7250]

17:00 this is straight up advertising for these books. Its giving very “What? You wanna do drugs just bc theyre really fun and will make you look cool and sexy and all your friends will like you more and you dont have to deal w life being shit and can just float off in a little bubble of bliss? Well don’t bc theyre bad for you.” 🥴

[@kyrooff2034]

Omg… 24:22 the way Kristen just got silenced 😂 the percentage of this video that Bethany is talking has got to be over 75%

[@R0mbVs]

92% or more for sure.... damn these two are wingnuts

[@arinaira1417]

I like erotica and smut stories, but hoover romanticize abusive relationship...so it's a no for me

[@therewillbecatswithgwenhwyfar]

11:00 😂😂😂😂😂 I am so glad to hear that the number of people who believe that the Bible is the actual word of God is decreasing! That is such great news!

[@therewillbecatswithgwenhwyfar]

15:00 they're so close to getting it sometimes.

[@therewillbecatswithgwenhwyfar]

27:39 my mother also told me that if all of my friends were going to jump off a cliff that I shouldn't just go with them and jump off the cliff also. This is such a dumb reasoning.

[@vintagearisen]

Okay I think Colleen Hoover's books are terrible but I love that they're selling more than the Bible because that's going to trigger so many Girl Defined types, I love that for both Colleen and for them 😂

[@nat_sterling]

🤣

[@blackdahlia42]

I just wish it could happen for a GOOD author for once. actually shitty writing like Hoover and the Fifty Shades chick somehow oversells the bible but then actually well written smut fiction never pops off to that level 😢 it's a fame only seemingly achieved with harmful narratives, flawed writing and lackluster smut written by authors who have clearly never had actually experimented with sex

[@nat_sterling]

I didn't realize how much I needed this video until I watched it 🙊 even though I've distanced myself from the religious side of my family and upbringing, I still feel so much shame and guilt about really inconsequential things... and it keeps coming back to not feeling worthy unless you are perfect and pure (whatever the f*ck that is). Thank you Mickey!

[@FrumiousMing8]

I won't defend Colleen Hoover in the year 2024 but the smut is not the problem with her books. I can understand why the smut is popular. What I can't grasp is why her books are so popular when the characters are all so annoying and unlikable. Sorry if you like her stuff but I just find her writing to be really irritating. Write toxic love stories if you want but for the love of God, can you write likable characters. Also like...Ladies, is it devil worship to read fiction?

[@R0mbVs]

Of course it isn't. I mean their favourite book is the biggest fantasy book ever.

[@theConcernedWyvern]

Dude I tried to read one of her books to improve my romance writing. I foolishly assumed it would be decent because it was published and well reviewed. Reading her writing was like chewing on drywall. Her characters, exposition, descriptions, etc were so bland and lacked any sort of life. They made weird choices, constantly contradicted themselves, she tried to insert humor that just wasn't funny and made no sense. Watching cardboard cutouts bang would be more enticing than her work. Her descriptions are basic and flat and no one has any chemistry with anyone. I'm so mad I wasted 20 real American dollars on that waste of my digital storage.

[@Raddiebaddie]

"I was waiting to pause until she was done but I don’t think she’s ever gonna be done” 😂😂😂

[@mkaverage4773]

I feel like worshiping a character in a book, who is a magic man in the sky, talking to him in your head several times daily, & meeting with other fans of his to talk & chant about him is the ultimate form of escapism. When I read I just read for an hour or two & go about my day. If every problem I had & feeling I felt caused me to go back & re read my book & speak to the characters in my head it would be concerning & obviously some unhealthy coping mechanism.

[@AmandaJo_]

“this person had their own take” Great use of singular they/them pronouns, Kristin! Thanks for showing how easy it is 🙂 lmao

[@floppsymoppsy5969]

As a demisexual, I grew up not understanding my lack of desire for smutty things, especially porn. Just couldn't get into it what so ever. But when I discovered manwha and manga that by a large group of the population found very graphic and smutty, I fell in love because I was finally able to emotionally connect and enjoy characters unfolding in a beautiful story. So everyone has their kink, and a beautiful story with character depth and spicy drawn scenes is perfect for me❤

[@nomollyshere]

I’m demisexual too and erotica/smut is definitely allowing me to safely dip my toes into different genres/kinks without involving a partner…I feel safe figuring out myself this way and getting the tools/words to describe what I like once I have a partner.

[@darcyroyce]

ok, clearly a demisexual gathering here, but yeah, I love smut, erotica, or sensual writing, and I write it myself. As you've said, it's a safe way to approach sex, safe and at my own pace, more like, given my past experiences. I hate anything forced...it's a real trigger.

[@floppsymoppsy5969]

@darcyroyce totally agree with you there. Consent between characters is key in the storylines I enjoy otherwise it has the opposite effect and becomes triggering

[@thinecuprunnethoverwithblood]

I didn't come to terms with about 90% of my transness and queerness until literally last year so it never occurred to me that I could be on the ace spectrum... I used to force myself to watch porn, get bored or uncomfortable, and then narrate it like a shitty newscaster and critique the videography... Yeah, I definitely wasn't particularly interested in intimacy outside of a personal setting lmao. It wasn't until I realized the only time I enjoyed anything in that realm was while imagining it was with a partner that I discovered I was literally just demisexual. (I'm technically a transmasculine nonbinary demisexual lesbiromantic, but that shit is crazy long so I just say I'm queer and call it a day.)

[@DarkVideogamer]

while Im not Demi, I had a similar journey and it's because i found out, it's because not only do I like erotica/smut with a plot, but I also wanna be wined and dined as much as the characters are. If I can't understand why the main characters are in love or would even think of sleeping with each other, why would I enjoy anything else??

[@ab6525]

I dont really have an opinion on CoHo's books because Ive never read them. But i do appreciate the discussion on how policing every thought that one has and every idea that one comes in contact with can be really damaging. Thank you for talking about this Mickey!❤ Unlearning the mental vigilance(and accompanying crippling anxiety) that came from growing up fundamentalist and figuring out how to trust myself and my instincts has been a long ass process.

[@4blueland]

Good reminder. Thank you. I was raised this way, too.

[@FortheLoveofBees]

Using the word “education” to describe Beth’s agape, on-camera flailing is extremely generous. Speaking of Bethy/literally all Fundies, want to do a video on developmental trauma disorder?!?!

[@dontmicrowavecats]

I liked every single comment about how problematic CoHo is

[@Ellie-bj2uw]

Colleen Hoover shouldn't be so popular considering not only does her works dare to be badly written they also romanticize and justify abuse and unhealthy relationships. They work better as badly written horror and thriller then they do erotica.

[@Chelseabee55]

Coho is not erotica. It’s not trying to be.

[@theConcernedWyvern]

​@@Chelseabee55 you're right. It's written as romance which is arguably worse. Before I knew anything about her, I picked up one of her books because it had great reviews and I was trying to learn how to improve my romance writing. What I found there was absolutely not romance. Later I found out that she specifically based the book on a toxic relationship her mom went through, and yet it was recommended as a number one romance book. There were no warnings, no idea of what exactly I was reading. That is a huge issue with her stuff. I'd have less issue with her if it was properly labeled and had some trigger warnings. I like dark stuff quite a lot, but I still have triggers and I do not like being duped into reading abuse labeled as romance.

[@lindseystein9676]

They’re really implying that if you read erotica you’ll eventually need more and more to “get excited,” essentially saying you’ll build a tolerance? That is wild lol. Although it does align with their all too often “slippery slope” mentality when it comes to certain social issues.

[@darkstarr984]

If anything, returning to reading erotica now I’m recovered from my illness and am further along deconstructing my shame, it has actually lowered my need for such extremely specific situations in order to even feel aroused.

[@thinecuprunnethoverwithblood]

Unfortunately folks often directly equate porn addiction to all forms of intimate media/art consumption, even in healthy ways, so they genuinely believe that it all works the same. There are many studies backing up the knowledge that extreme porn consumption from a young age (especially starting before puberty, which is horrifying and sad to think about) can negatively alter how people experience irl sexual encounters and lead to steadily amplifying porn consumption down the road. The issue is that people see this and go ALL SEXUAL MEDIA IS EVIL AND ADDICTIVE AND IT ROTS YOUR DOPAMINE RECEPTORS AHHHHHHHH without understanding what the science actually means, then put everything under the same umbrella and ban it or spread misinformation.

[@lorianabanana6066]

I love how when Bethany decribes her extremely vanilla 'married christain' sex life (poorly) that's not only fine- but is worthy of monetization. But when an author desribes FICTIONAL charactors having sex in the context of a story in a more creative way it's sMuT and TrAsH and makes Jesus cry.... Girl you just jelly. How dare someone else write about sex and be sucessful!!! I think they just want to police EVERYTHING that could even remotely involve married christain women's sex lives. That's BETHANY'S GRIFT!!! No one elses lol!!! So she calls it 'sinful' all while promoting her own hustles.

[@lorianabanana6066]

Btw there are very valid critiques of this author, but that's not what Bethy cares about. She just wants to control everything so only she gets to make a buck off of it.

[@soph1377]

It’s wild that part of what they are saying too is that fiction is dangerous. It makes you feel things and use your imagination. Like honestly it sounded like they were basically advocating for reading nothing but the Bible and their books lol

[@MH-wz1rb]

1:03:11 Bethy says "I was very imperfect" and Kristin starts to smirk at the camera

[@MH-wz1rb]

Ope sure enough Mickey notes this two minutes later

[@jaymurphy468]

Hey, just a heads up, i think your spelling of the website at 5:48 ish is wrong. It says dipdeastories but you said dipseastories. Idk just figured I'd point it out for anyone wanting to check out your sponsor. The right link is in the description it looks like. Thanks for the video, i appreciate your opinions!

[@amygreen9662]

A good smutty story is good for the mind and body. Come on, girls!

[@WishfulThinkingArt]

Listening to your videos is honestly like listening to your best friend spill the tea but doing it so insightfully that you hang on every word! I always look forward to your validating statements about letting toxic mindsets go and sending us off with good vibes!

[@teaganrichichi]

The book sales thing is also comparing dozens of Colleen Hoover's books to the Bible, which although it has multiple editions and sections, is just one text at the end of the day

[@candiceattrill2272]

I’ve been distancing myself from the culture and yet the other day talking about reading books and how I need to choose new books that will edify me rather than entertain me, and I realize I still do this to myself. Love you calling this out.

[@kumartastic]

I like how they paint it like you can have a reading addiction that ruins your life 🤣 I mean, we’ve all heard those stories about readaholics suddenly quitting their jobs and abandoning their families and moving to orgy island, right?!

[@crystal3850]

I love Laurell K. Hamilton's Anita Blake series. I've read every book in the series but I'm far from obsessed. I read them when they come out and when I want a book I know will be an easy read. The smut is just a icing on top lol.

[@northshoregirl8173]

Thanks so much for this Mickey! I was in a bad mood today and really wanted to vent, and you trashing these two always makes my day 😄

[@purplepebble3479]

52:57 Taylor swift’s song Clara Bow has a line that struck a chord very deep with me: “It’s hell on earth to be heavenly.” Nothing hurt me more than trying to live up to fundamental Christianity’s expectations

[@HolldollMcG]

Fun fact: the Bible contains smut. Song of Solomon anyone? Also a ton of stuff about war, the oppression and abuse of women, genital mutilation, slavery, murder, etc. It's actually kind of a horrifying read.

[@dijahsyoutubechannel]

if anyone hasn’t had experience with colleen’s books, i would highly recommend rachel oates’ review videos. she gets into the specifics of the abuse colleen romanticizes, and somehow still manages to make it entertaining and funny, despite the discomfort.

[@Glam_Geek_Girl]

Yes! I absolutely love Rachel's videos, she's amazing.

[@akane9959]

My first experience with CoHo is from Alizee's reviews. I love her and Rachel's reviews on these things for all the reasons you stated. They help keep my lunch in my stomach.

[@hanatemonstas4485]

While I think its fine to critique problematic issues and romanticization of toxic ideals, it is interesting how quick both men and women are to jump and tear down anything that has a large female demographic fanbases and interests, especially media consumption. Nothing wrong with discussing it but you rarely see it if ever male demographic fandoms and interests (especially by other guys), like glorifying war or violence in action or adventure shows or video games. At most, you occasionally see it with sexualization of female characters but then you have people defending it by doubling down. There was the “video games cause violence” period that gets mocked and derided as the position held by pearl clutching mothers. Yet you have all these widespread and heavily involved discussions being taken seriously once people find out girls and woman are taking interest in something. It seems more social acceptable to believe boys and men are capable of critical thought and media literacy, whereas girls get infantized more and are expected to read “pure” and sanitized stuff without any problematic content or else they will be led astray. Media content and consumption can be productively discussed but I don’t agree the double standards of it.

[@2012jordie]

English literature student here. You're absolutely right about the double standard. When novels were first taking shape as an art form in the 18th century, there was a real moral panic over their potential effects on women. Never their effects on men, but then, it was believed that men only consumed and wrote good, highbrow stuff. Women, on the other hand, consumed and wrote trash-- fluffy romance or even smut. People worried their entire social order was being threatened by a conspiracy of witches wielding pens and peddling smutty, anti-Christian drivel. Academia today considers these early female novelists as feminist pioneers. But as we can see with Girl Defined, there are still plenty of people living in fear of social collapse on account of "witches" acting out of accordance with patriarchal norms. It's a shame, really. These ladies might be happier if only they would embrace their otherness. It's impossible to live up to the Christian design for women; it was MEANT to keep women confused, off-balance, and powerless.

[@maggietiong6153]

Yes! It's always discussed in such a patronizing way, like poor women shouldn't read this or they'll get unrealistic ideals. Bruh, we know not to expect every man to be 6'3" with chiseled abs and his own private plane. But the fact that even contemporary romance where the focus is often on couples figuring out how to communicate to work through issues and men putting their partners' needs first in the bedroom is deemed unrealistic and possibly giving us dangerous expectations speaks volumes.

[@k.mcdonald1960]

Mickey, I love how easily you put into words so many things that I feel and leave unsaid. You do such a great job. I love your channel.

[@peraspera934]

They have The Song of Solomon in their Bible. It's essentially a smut book. Some Christians try to read it to get "in the mood," but it's so archaic that it doesn't work so well for that. It's amazing how dysfunctional and disjointed sensuality and sex can become from a purity culture lens.

[@faithfaul]

Colleen Hoover: abuse is sexy ;) Girl Defined: SEXY?! Absolutely not. Great review of one of her books: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qYPJhZZ-d6-Efqc

[@charliemeleon]

Mickey, as someone who has been deconstructing and will still be for years to come, thank you so much for sharing the messages you do in an easily accessible format like KZbin ❤️

[@lisabal6431]

The thing that gets to me with these godly ladies is how condescending they are with their delivery. I was very religious growing up (alter server, CCD student and instructor, religious school, cleaning the church on the weekends with my mom and much more) and I would never DREAM of speaking to others who did not ascribe to my beliefs in the tone these people take. BTW, love your videos Mickey!

[@jenniferpajor5365]

I’m a Christian woman, and I read smut. Though I’ve never read Colleen Hoover and this comments section isn’t exactly endorsing her books. I don’t think God cares what I read. And it doesn’t change who I am as a person, it says I’m a single woman who hasn’t been with a man in a very long time and so if I want to live vicariously through fictional characters having sex I’m effing going to. Also, as a Christian, I can look at the Bible critically and understand that it’s not 100 percent true and not meant to be taken word-for-word literally.

[@gladiatorinsweats]

Idk if anyone caught this, but Kristen kept clarifying that "other people" found the story captivating and I wondered if she was reading these books herself. She sounds much more curious than appalled. Then she mentioned that she's reading one 😂 I laugh because I do wish they would just let themselves be.

[@melissashiels7838]

I know it's been said so many times before, but K & B really have no time for each other - the way they do pretend listening face between checking their phones/zoning out shows how little regard they have for each other. Just waiting for the other one to shut up so they can basically say the exact same thing. And OF COURSE Bethy has a Stanley cup 😂😂😂

[@jaynaneeya]

This might seem like such a small thing, but as an asexual person I really appreciate how often Mickey adds disclaimers like “not everybody wants sex and that’s fine” - that’s something that people in the Girl Defined circle will never understand or acknowledge

[@sarahflowerchild6343]

I am MAD about CoHo too... Her normalised and romanticised portrayal of toxic relationships and abusive partners feels really harmful.

[@BanglesAU]

The problem.with Coleen Hoover isn't that her book are spicy, its that most of the male characters are abusive af yet they are the main romantic lead, portrayed a this sexy manly man whos all tortured and moody, and its totally ok when they do awful things

[@marlyd]

I'm also mad at Colleen Hoover but probably not for the reasons Girl Defined are.

[@aubreylundgren]

So glad the comments are bringing up some real issues with Colleen Hoover’s books!! So important not to glaze over harmful topics!!

[@Steph-wf2eg]

I always really enjoy your videos about girl defined, especially when they are talking about something like sexual wellness. While I wasn't raised as religious as them, there was still enough about how "sex is only after marriage" and "don't even think about it as that's a sin" that affected me. I've realized that I've had anxiety as long as I can remember and this way of thinking was detrimental to me. When I tried a tampon at the age of 14 and it didn't go well (it didn't go in far enough and it hurt a lot), it was this weird thing for me. I tried maybe once a year to put in a tampon until 2021 and it was always the same thing. I was confused and concerned and in 2020 I tried a small bullet vibrator with lube, it was the same pain. I watched the show Sex Education and one of the characters has vaginismus, I had never heard of it and thought maybe that was my issue. I saw my family doctor and expressed concern, he said since I hadn't had sex I should wait until I try and then we can look more into it. I had actually tried to have sex but I felt shame and couldn't be open about it, even though I know my doctor wouldn't judge. I made another appointment to say I was concerned and before I said anything more, my doctor said okay and he'll refer met to a gynecologist. Turns out I had a septate hymen and I couldn't push through that tissue, and that's why it hurt so much. I had a minor surgery to get that removed but that was like 8 years of my life of pain trying to insert anything, now I have issues relating to sex. I saw a pelvic floor physiotherapist who was awesome, and I'm trying to get comfortable with anything feeling good down there as I'm used to feeling only pain. I heard about OMGyes and signed up and we'll see if that helps, I've got some hope! I want to really enjoy sex and my partner is great and wants to help as well. The anxiety that I learned around sex definitely made getting the diagnosis and help way harder

[@chesiresays]

4:02 Yes, I was raised super religious and I couldn’t even sleep at night, I would constantly have anxiety attacks bc “I sinned” (I was 5yo). Whenever there would be a power outage I would shake for hours scared that “Jesus came back and left me behind”. I decided to leave the religion and I’ve never felt so much peace, I don’t have to constantly worry about demons in my house, I can now sleep at night.

[@Med_Zeb]

I just came from your "Confident Wife Party" video and now I'm wondering what she would say if I told her it helped in performing wifely duties by reading before bed(ding)time every night. lmao

[@lestatsluv317]

I cannot stand Colleen Hoover's "writing" and one of those "spicy scenes" Colleen wrote was straight up rape written as if it were consensual (the female lead said no repeatedly and the male lead just kept going and she froze up... and it was talked about like she was just being unreasonable and he had to take the reigns...then it just wasn't mentioned again and they lived happily ever after at the end because of course they did) but my problems with Colleen Hoover and Bethy and Kristen 's aren't the same and as someone who has listened to more about Colleen Hoover than I care to admit, I can promise you, Miss Colleen Hoover probably has more in common with Girl Defined than they want to admit no matter how many poorly written sex scenes are in her books. Wait until they spend some time on Booktok for real. Even I can't take some of the books recommended on booktok (not because I can't handle porn...i just don't want my noncon stories and my romance novels to have babies and if they do, I don't want to read it....). 😂

[@sarahlynn4798]

TBH reading smut was the catalyst to me leaving an abusive relationship, losing 100lbs & in general becoming a beast 💋🔥🖤

[@TwoCatsInLondon]

Out of all the reasons to dislike Colleen Hoover books, and there are many (romantisation of abuse, romantisation of SA, romantisation of predatory behaviour, romantisation of the entire damn cycle of abuse), they picked the smut? Once again Girl Defined has their priorities ass backwards.

[@sunnytheo]

Actually the 11th commandment is thou shalt not read Colleen Hoover lmao

[@moeshmoe8494]

The twelfth ~ ‘Thou shalt not peruse Archive of Our Own under ANY circumstances.’ Yuptrustmeitsrightthereinthebiblegolookforityourselfitsrightthere.

[@Gnormous]

Reading Slasher smut on Tumblr has been pretty good for my mental health lol. There's an artist/writer on tumblr who makes illustrations for their work and it is .... amazing

[@dwdillydally]

Ok, ok, I'm intrigued. Can you share that author's name or where to find them?

[@Gnormous]

@dwdillydally I think its 'whatyadrawing' or something like that.

[@dr.gwendolyncarter]

Free apps that allow you to still highlight and make notes is the reason for Bible sales are going down. They also ha e the added benefit of not being heavy and clunky.

[@Saezimmerman]

Even if I am unfamiliar with the topic itself, I always find some useful nugget in your commentary on mental health and wellness. I’m realizing that I was brought up to constantly police my every thought and behavior (or someone else would it do it for me). There were no boundaries in my family surrounding who was allowed to judge or correct me. For a group of people that talked about “judge not” my family did a lot of judging. My job, as the next generation, was to fall in line, and when the line moved, (which it often did), I was to move with again. There was no place for me to be me.

[@halcyon3116]

@36:52 i learned about having 6 holes in the vulva, that was wild and sad we dont get more information about it

[@zephyrthorne266]

I hope you and yours are doing well 😊 and i hope whoever reads this is gentle with themselves today and has the best day ever

[@hidansektas]

aw you too 💕💕💕

[@Kikka.babeanie]

❤

[@FloofBunnyB612]

Omg love love love that top!❤❤❤ Oh and the end made me tear up, thank you!

[@joshuaokoro-sokoh2993]

Actually there is, Songs of Solomon, about a guy who is HORNY for a woman, It's practically an romance novel smack dab in the bible, and somehow the mental gymnastics people take to gustify chasisty with THIS BOOK is mind-blowing. 58:52 AND SPEAKING OF MENTAL GYMNASTICS. This is what Christ harped on back in his day, Hypocrisy and the utter arrogance associated with it.

[@Abcd-dz2bn]

PLEASE don’t stop giving us Girl Defined reactions!!!!!! What you say is HEALING!❤️ Sending a lot of love❤

[@zachreads]

I doubt the authors of the bible would want women to have the ability or freedom to read anything at all.

[@delagonz4295]

Manufactured emotion is the most important thing Ive learned from this chanel! So powerful