Dyno testing POD FILTER Performance Claims | CASH vs TRASH

We take our cars to the Dyno to power check our mods. But these were not the results we were hoping for on the Peugeot and the Swift Sport...
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Also something to note around Mighty Car Mods: we are normal guys and are not trained mechanics. We like to make interesting car mods and show you how we've gone about it, but we can't promise that anything we show you will work for your particular car, or that you won't harm yourself, someone else, your car or your warranty doing it. Please be safe, be responsible and unless you know what you're doing, do not fool around with very serious machinery just because you've seen us make it look so easy. Talk to a qualified mechanic if you are in any doubt. Some of the products featured in this video may be supplied by sponsors. For a list of our current sponsors please go to mightycarmods.com
This video presents our opinions on the selected products, and as such the views expressed may not necessarily reflect your results using the same products. The materials in this video have been prepared for general information purposes only. The information in the video, may not necessarily be accurate, complete or current. No person should act or fail to act on the basis of these materials. This video is an expression of opinion only.

[@bradentibbles]

I feel like an "out of the bin" opportunity was missed 😂

[@rustymonaro184]

Yes I like that call. Or should have had a purity box

[@brewingfarts]

hahaha yes mate

[@Sam-lr9oi]

just playing the "in the bin" clip backwards would have done it for me

[@Afraz_9n3]

​@@Sam-lr9oi bin the in😂😂

[@kilovwdude6457]

It's a fake out

[@bradsoole]

Of course Marty lost power. He got rid of his water cooled air filter.

[@bigkingy9483]

This deserves a pin😂

[@ZedKay86]

🤣

[@motomenace86]

your actually not wrong lol..

[@tzwientjuh]

I just started to watch, thanks for the spoiler

[@bespincustompropsbombarta8300]

😂

[@qwertiee]

That settles it. Everyone complaining about the price of the K&N air filter had a valid point 😂

[@graemejohnson9025]

They are a Con..

[@crisnmaryfam7344]

It settles almost nothing. If you go look at a factory bike, anything modern to in the last 15+ years. Take the factory paper filter out and get a Sprint air filter (mind you this is a TRACK only filter and actually filters almost nothing) and you will in fact gain horse power, that you can measure on a dyno. Chris Moore at Moore Mafia has videos up showing it. However, as I mentioned, they filter near on nothing, so naturally, its highly ill advised to daily drive/ride something with a filter like this, and may even be illegal in some places.

[@graemejohnson9025]

@@crisnmaryfam7344 I am 62. Back in 1981 I had Holden hj show van. Running a 202 with yella terra head, 350 Holley. Pacemakers.. I drove from Sydney to Newcastle, with air cleaner on. Then back with air cleaner off.. No difference in Performance..

[@graemejohnson9025]

@@crisnmaryfam7344 yes it is illegal to put a pod filter on your car in most states..

[@nigspeed]

Why no dyno run in the same session with the original intakes back on ?

[@MrWilliam.Stewart]

To unlock the 5 extra kilowatts from the pod filter, you first have to paint front brake calipers red, it's written in the fine print. I heard it on the internet somewhere 🤔

[@hangrymachinist]

😂

[@LTT.Official]

Also adding some HKS, Greddy and Haltech stickers adds a further 10hp.

[@marcogdini1275]

😂

[@michaelblacktree]

Don't be fooled by the fancy looking pod filter. The real gain comes from the sticker included in the package. 😛

[@Winning9999]

Worked even better if u have drum brakes and paint them red 🤯

[@metal4lifetime]

put back the stock filters and do a dyno run again, would love to see the results

[@AdxmTS]

Exactly in my opinion it's only fair if you've done a test before and after on the same day, anything could've changed in the time between the dynos

[@alexandermichaels6283]

@@AdxmTS was ganna say that different dyno days makes a difference/ different dynos

[@SmokinGunn]

This test was complete garbage. Should have tested before and after, same day, same dyno. These guys are only making money from this shit, the quality of this channel has gone down the drain in the recent years.

[@craigdavies8099]

My guess is the different wheels contribute to power change/loss. More friction with grippier tyres, larger tyre circumference is a power killer.

[@traviswindsor2028]

yep should have run them up with same wheels/tires as last time

[@unavailable8681]

Absolutely. Especially marty's cheap wheels, which has a lot of additional weight further out compared to the old wheels. Put the old wheels back on, and he might have a marginal gain.

[@jett8225]

Yeah but aren’t the newer wheels lighter?

[@vaughanrix7610]

I agree

[@benraymond4435]

I would love to see you push back on K&N on this. That kit was supposedly made just for that car, and they "guarantee" a horsepower increase. I'd love to see what they have to say.

[@jimybo20]

Agreed

[@mickmurphy92]

As if they need that headache

[@obscurevisuals]

Somewhere in the fine print it probably says the car has to be tuned

[@armoule8596]

there was no fan in front of the cars when they ran on dyno, they were just gulping hot engine air, and Moog had the genius idea to place the air intake BEHIND the engine (which actually adds restriction xD )

[@KeithDenny]

​@@armoule8596 there is the big blue box @ 2:27

[@EthanLeitch]

It'd be awesome to see: The maximum power you can gain with a dyno tune using the STOCK intake VS. The max with a dyno tune using an AFTERMARKET intake. I feel like this could be the scenario that they're actually useful

[@skid544]

Was about to comment this.

[@jaky3]

You can't tune stock cars that easily, not without some ecu.

[@garren3498]

@@jaky3 its really easy actually, you rarely need an aftermarket ecu

[@richbrown5852]

On some of the Peugeot models, to safely tune them without adding the expense of an aftermarket ecu, you got to remove and open up the ecu and solder some wires, download the info on the ecu, adjust some tables, then flash it back, reinstall etc...its a bit of a mission especially on a petrol engine where gains would be minimal and Rodney lurks waiting for overzealous tuning

[@mbsnyderc]

@@garren3498 depends on what car.

[@Lolan1111]

I've been a Journeyman tech for 10 years now and as most people have pointed out there are many many things that contribute to power loss when putting on "Cold air intakes". But the one thing that always seems to bother me, and i know it shouldn't, is no one likes to talk about how 90% of Factory intakes ARE COLD AIR INTAKES. Almost every car draws its air from either the grill or the fender from factory. I mean think about it for one moment people, you dont need a cold air intake because you already have one! If it was as easy as simply changing a pipe and a filter to gain HP the Manufactureres would do it instantly! Anyways thats my rant for the day. As always, keep it up guys your videos always make me happy and put a smile on my face. Good job

[@uptownsamcv]

exactly, that yellow car was sucking in hot air right off the hot metal intake manifold.

[@PikkaBird]

Totally! The Suzuki had air ducted straight into the stock filter so the engine could only suck it in through that, making sure all the air comes from the outside. This "fancy" K&N setup just has a pipe exiting near the filter, so whatever air trickles up there from the outside is mixed up with the heat from the engine. Such a half-assed solution from a supposed reputable brand. Shame.

[@Bobberboyz_Official]

Bro puts the intake at the back of the engine and wonders why he lost power 😂😂

[@ShiftMotoring]

The OEM intakes are usually pretty sophisticated tuned-length affairs, as well as heat shielded. If you try swapping the filter with a panel filter, you will might see a small change if there is a significant enough restriction in the filter (there probably isn't). The only real reason to do a pod filter is if you're modifying enough of your engine bay that it is the only practical option.

[@SirDaffyD]

So true. I swapped out the stock panel filter with a K&N panel filter in my BA Falcon back in the day, and got a notable gain in power. I then removed the intake snorkel part leading to the airbox, which gave a bigger opening into the airbox to get more air, and got more gains. The snorkel is a restrictive part. I've removed this snorkel to the airbox on numerous cars, and always made gains. There's something to be said about the research gone into the inlet from the airbox to the motor, and removing it can have a negative effect. Every time I've removed the snorkel only, not only have I gained some power, I've also gained intake noise. I do believe they make these snorkels like this to reduce noise emissions, with the downside of robbing some power. My 3 cents.

[@marcbirchley2418]

​@SirDaffyD correct... I once owned a 1.4 8v Fiat Punto, swapped the airbox snorkel from its hot intake that went to a blanked off section of the grille that was covered in painted cardboard (Yes, cardboard) Took that out, replaced the snorkel with a cold feed tube, cut a section in the grille so it pointed directly into a windpath... Very noticeable difference... minor but noticeable.

[@iguana51]

​@@SirDaffyD unless you're crossing rivers regularly they're just power thieves really

[@noneyabizz8337]

​@@SirDaffyDof course, some cars have a large portion of plastic in the fender that the intake is attached to. It's an enclosure of a bunch of baffles and angles that the air has to pass through, quiets things down. Stock intakes, even without that are definitely designed to cut down on engine noises.

[@adamtomecek6704]

Dropping pod filter without any shielding on top of the exhaust manifold in the back of the engine bay. I can only imagine how crazy the intake air temperature was.

[@mitchellpatterson3323]

I thought this too, but that's actually the intake manifold. The exhaust is located on the front, you can see the heat shield in the overhead shot. Now, that said. I still wouldn't want to be drawing my air from next to the engine bay.

[@adamtomecek6704]

@@mitchellpatterson3323 oh yeah. Embarrassing overlook by me

[@mitchellpatterson3323]

@@adamtomecek6704 Don't be hard on yourself, I thought the same thing initially

[@IoSkyBoyoI]

It's still feels like a barmy place to put it. Made me double take when I saw it.

[@mitchellpatterson3323]

@@IoSkyBoyoI 100%, it's still drawing hot air from the top of the motor rather than cold air from the side like the standard intake.

[@ValerianusEustorgios]

Mainline dyno’s have definitely thrown us as a part manufacturer for a loop in the past. They’re very strict in some ways, and definitely could be the problem. It would have been useful to do the test in the same day. But given the location of that filter and the way a dyno operates I suspect the intake air temp has significantly changed, which can not only result in natural performance loss but also can trigger the calibration to significantly lower power in order to avoid knock.

[@nigelfox6683]

Would be interesting to see a k&n panel filter in the stock air box… maybe look at cold air feeding to the air box with some added intake / porting with the ducting

[@richardfld]

Be interesting to see the hp with the stock airbox back on with the performance exhaust

[@adjrasta9365]

Exactly, the swift wldnt hve taken that long to change bck on the same day & same dyno bck to bck test for a definite answer....opportunity missed imo

[@JD_82]

Yes they should test this

[@HendrickT-bi4iw]

I second that. Would be very interesting to see. I didn't expect them to make hp but was surprised to see that much of a drop in the case of the swift

[@АнтонК-х1ж]

So many variables missed as well, like we dont know if outside temp changed.

[@suazzz3070]

The problem is you have to put the k&n sticker on the car ,lol

[@sebsshenanigans]

Here to see if the old PVC intake I did back in the day on my first car was killing it or not Edit- after watching, glad we only spent $10 instead of $350 for that car 😂😂

[@yunusertas]

dont forget 1.2k exhaust :D

[@sebsshenanigans]

@@yunusertas done that once, probably just going to stick to learning and making my own 😅😅

[@PLAYERSLAYER_22]

it only makes less power if the car is otherwise stock. if you tune the ecu by sending it to a company itll fix the top end of the rpm band from running lean and losing power. the ecu can only tolerate 5-10% extra air than it expects before running out of injector pressure to keep up with the high intake volume.

[@ofthenearfuture]

It's such a complex issue, but over the years (and thanks to your videos as well!), I think it just comes down to these small cc NA engines being engineered to be incredibly efficient by the manufacturer. Decreased restriction/pressure/velocity in the intake and exhaust probably only benefits FI setups. And in modern vehicles most likely only with tuning in any case.

[@wijibo6772]

You can only do so many mods before you get into needing tuning, and I feel you guys are right there at the door.

[@vinnyvtec8722]

Im in the uk and i used to like induction filters for the noise when i was younger, but since i've got a bit older and a bit smarter, now i keep the standard air box, chop any fins inside the box to make it as smooth as possible, replace the ribbed intake hose with a smooth one and replace the panel filter with a better flowing filter, my preference is a company called 'green' and you keep the same set up as your car manufacturer spend ££££'s researching and developing, increase the sound a bit, help the flow of air a little bit and its really cheap to do. I also noticed in my time that on smaller not very powerful engines, you lose low down torque by using an open/induction filter compared to a standard airbox, so you make your already slow accelerating car even slower off the mark.

[@j.r.m.yr.s.l.e5293]

I reckon it was the wheel and tire change that made the horsepower loss more rolling resistance.

[@Silldro]

I agree. Seems reasonable that the cup2 tires has higher rolling resistance than the stock tires. I dont think that the exhausts decrease power, the air filters may but it should be 1-2kW

[@krcari111]

The Peugeot also has bigger and heavier wheels, ofcourse it lost power...

[@llleolllolll]

But wouldnt that be counter calculated when the resistance is measured? Lower wheel hp yes, but at the crank that shouldnt have an effect imho

[@Moosehung]

I was thinking the same, would love to see back to back dyno runs with the two different wheelsets on each car.

[@dattoDJ]

Yes! Plus I'm pretty sure the dyno works by knowing torque and doing maths to give a power figure. Bigger wheels = less torque = less power number on dyno, even if engine horsepower increased.

[@oldred9122]

I'm a mechanical engineer who worked (past tense) in the automotive aftermarket, so I might have some insight. Here's how it probably went. A salesman or reseller somewhere told the K&N engineering team that they needed an intake kit for the Swift to fill out the K&N sales catalog, but the engineering team were probably given little (or no) access to an actual Suzuki Swift for testing, so they gave it a good guess, created a kit using parts that K&N already had, and were forced to move on to the next project.

[@jacobrzeszewski6527]

That's my guess too. Research and development requires actual research to be done.

[@kristisrb]

As someone working in RnD, this is pretty accurate on how most of the engineering is done in big companies. Not for all products but certainly Swift's kit is an example. Add on top of that misunderstood engineering notes that get overpromised by the marketing and sales. Another case might be that they know it loses power but that wouldn't make sense for a product so they will look for a corner case or additional modifications to justify this filter.

[@god_of_negativity9297]

Hey, i've been watching your guy's channel since i was a kid, i'm 24 now and still enjoy watching everything you do here, thank you so much, i appreciate you Marty and Moog very much

[@Scrubsgetrekt]

Not living up to your name bro, you can't just do that; go on the internet and lie.

[@god_of_negativity9297]

@@Scrubsgetrekt 😂😂

[@ChriAsh]

Sometimes it hardly feels like I used to watch you guys doing budget mods in a driveway so long ago

[@emmanuelgoldstein3682]

right in the feels

[@WyFoster]

Dude, tell me about it. I think I'm old

[@xXxsinistaxXx]

i'd love for them to mod a fan or someone having a rough times nugget their driveway to get that feeling again

[@reganhams3431]

Marty literally made his intake out of pvc 😂

[@nicholascrow8133]

These were the guys that made a urine based patina!

[@JamalPennant]

The air filter was right next to the hot exhaust. The original air box protected the filter from drawing in the hot air. If you used part of the old air box to protect it from the warm air I'm sure you will see the the numbers back to stock or a tiny bit higher.

[@cjwrench07]

That basically defeats the purpose of the video. The down pipe was just for the noise, and the K&N setup was supposedly “a drop-in kit.”

[@JamalPennant]

@@cjwrench07 that's fair point. As per fitted instructions it's definitely not worth paying extra, for this set up to draw in hot air lol.

[@GorillazMach1]

I agree on the filter thats too close on exhaust.

[@Kris_M]

@@GorillazMach1 How would you move it further away from the exhaust? They are already on opposite sides of the engine.

[@IoSkyBoyoI]

Dont quote me. But I think the exhuast side is close to the bumper. So the intake is above the intake side. Still a barmy place for an pod filter.

[@adammassie9587]

Position of the MAF is key. OE airbox ensures best reading of airflow across the sensor. Look at the bellmouths used on ITB setups, a good aftermarket intake has similar design incorporated to keep the MAF reading accurately.

[@MiniH0p]

2:55 buddy is cleaning the tempreature sensor lmao.

[@barzaization]

I'd be pointing towards the rolling resistance of the new sticky tyres

[@MrMarty77]

That might actually be a pretty valid point. Would be interesting to test that with a flir camera pointed at the tyre during a dyno run.

[@911Keaton]

Deffinetely has an effect. I forget the weight difference from stock but heavier tires will reduce appearent power as well since tyno runs are a dynamic test.

[@Burwhale1]

Loving "Cash vs Trash" . Go team PurgeBro.

[@jeeves_uk]

PeugBro supremacy 👌

[@JoelDunstan]

Peugbros unite!

[@lukebarnes8097]

Here for the underdog story

[@JoelDunstan]

@@lukebarnes8097 peugeot arent the underdog. Just different class of car really. Look at suzukis WRC non existent win compared to the astounding 13 championships PSA have won

[@jeeves_uk]

@@JoelDunstan 206 WRC 🐐

[@n3er0o]

I think you should have measured them with the stock exhaust and intake in the same conditions (i.e. same day, same (probably higher roll resistance + weight) wheel/tire combo). Also I believe modern cars usually take some time to 'cope' with the changed hardware. I believe these mods overall should have resulted in no power change at all under the right conditions.

[@craigmonty]

Yeah this is left so unresolved not testing with the stock A/F back to back - I guess there is logistics involved in it not being an easy thing to swap in and out that makes that unfeasible.

[@n3er0o]

@@craigmonty I'd think it's quite easy in the Swift at least (except for the exhaust). The Peugeot seems a little more challenging, but this could be done in between running the other car.

[@MrUppmas]

Not just 'some', espécially if it's a bit old. It took my sw20 mr2 a month to fully adjust to changed parts.

[@vinalspin1000]

A K&N drop in panel filter with the stock intake system will give you the small gains you're looking for, those full induction kits very rarely work. Over the years I've only ever managed to get an increase in power on 2 cars, one was a 2.0L MX5 and the other was a Lancia Delta, both N/A cars, all the rest sounded fantastic but ultimately caused a drop in horses.

[@Alexsandrosla]

Kind of a shame Marty didn't try out the intake hack from the last intake video.

[@pokinacha]

This! Keep airbox, remove resonator and all that spaghetti piping, remove fog light and duct the intake to the fog light hole. Cheap and works

[@lmc7233]

The K&N is right at the back pulling straight hot air, The stock intake pulls cold air that's the difference

[@ShanesGettingHandy]

Why did I have to dig so far down the list to find this comment? THIS. How is this not what everyone is talking about? I have chuckled at MANY a "hot air intake" mod I've seen installed on people's cars. DON'T DO IT.

[@troyam6607]

he also added the cold air intake so it shouldn't be sucking the hot in

[@lmc7233]

@@ShanesGettingHandy your spot on i thought it would be the top comment but apparently people don't know so i had to let them know

[@circuscannon6381]

​@@troyam6607Not really, that thing is just basically just a dryer hose that is supposed to bring air from the front, but the system isn't sealed so the pod filter is still just pulling in hot engine compartment air. Complete waste of money

[@colinsullivan7330]

Usually when you put a cold air intake in you have to go in the ecu and reset fuel trims and throttle possition relearn so it can adjust itself over a pretty long period of driving.

[@PigeonLaughter01]

I really enjoy all the tests you guys have done over the years. This kind of info really helps diy and enthusiasts.

[@MrWilliam.Stewart]

Someone in the comments called it, a comparison of acceleration times on a track before and after the mods would be interesting to see, cause that's what it's all about. A engine dynamometer is an awesome tuning tool, but it's the on tarmac results that will count here.

[@Lothyde]

Agreed 100%, I don't trust these Dyno results

[@tyhub7455]

You gotta get it tuned to match the new exhuast and intake. Mods add power but sometimes need a tune to bring them to their full potential. It throws the air fuel mix off

[@Nebbia_affaraccimiei]

tune in next week for more clueless comments

[@RealLifeJunkie]

Had same results. I'm running my polo on the Nordschleife. Went back to stock Filter and shorter intake length. Got best results with stock. Even with tuning on Dyno

[@GreaseRenegade]

When Moog took the stock intake off, he removed the snorkel that pulls air from the front of the car, and by putting the air filter where he did, he is now pulling air from the engine bay. Simply put, he went from cooler air, to pulling hot air which is thinner...so basically now you are pulling less air than you were with the stock setup. Pod filters are designed to allow for more air flow through them, but if the air is is thinner where the filter is, it will cause a decrease in power. Ways to eliminate the loss in power would be to either have a box that closes the filter off from the engine air (with some opening to allow fresh air in) or to run a longer air tube with the filter on the end of it, placing the filter near the front/bottom of the car where the air will be colder and therefor denser.

[@remote_will5490]

A dyno works by measuring the power output at the rollers, by changing wheel sizes you changed the gear ratio to the rollers skewing the results. Swapping back to the stock wheel/tyre setup should give you more comparable power numbers to the first dyno results.

[@Dan_Divebomb]

Not if you do it according to the specs. The outside diameter stays the same when you change wheels. If you go from 16 to 17" wheels for instance, the sidewall becomes lower. When a rim manufacturer produces a rim they'll write in the datasheet which rubber to use for your specific car.

[@lcddan]

Fun series :) As others have already mentioned, I believe its the heavier wheel/tire combo that caused at least some of the loss. Maybe next time bring 2 of the old wheels/tires and try installing those (on the front of course) to see if it would have made a difference.

[@Nabeelco]

No. It's the pod filter. This isn't the first time they've tested this, and this is also well known amongst the educated people in the car community. Pod filters, and K&N filters suck, and are aimed at suckers who don't know better.

[@badbatch974]

Moog’s wheels were basically the same weight as the stocks. They showed it being weighed on the episode.

[@Cyber_Nomad01]

Cold air is the key! Pod filters are great as long as they are put in a place that they can suck cold air.

[@MiGG_Aus]

pod fiilters are trash.

[@SirKingCora]

Maybe move the pod filter to outside the engine bay, into the wheel wells? That's where I put my pod filter when I use it (summer use only).

[@mihaiserbanescu8676]

The original box was enclosed and had a shape that would make air flow in a way the engine likes better. Also, the enclosure protects from the heat of the engine/exhaust. High temperature air makes the combustion worse resulting in lower hp. If you put that pod filter and somehow isolate the rest of the intake, it's probably still not gonna flow as good as the original intake but probably won't lose that much power.

[@carriedhome]

Did the ECUs get a full reset and enough miles to approve whatever emission controls which may be in place? California resident so ECUS and emissions is on the mind..

[@reyedengoh552]

U have to tune it to fully maximise the power. Just bolting these on will cause power loss

[@AWOL_ODST]

Exactly. Bolt ons only give power gains if the ECU knows what it’s working with.

[@fohatadri]

K&N doesn't specify if tune is needed or not.

[@AWOL_ODST]

@@fohatadri U can bolt on a K&N air filter no problems. It will change the induction sound making you think it is better but there will be no objective improvements as the ECU doesnt know what to do with the increased airflow. If anything it panics and cuts power for safety as it gets confused. U can put it on and it wont do any harm but u will not get a true performance benefit until u turn your car. Most people add filter, then exhaust, headers etc. then when u have them all bolted on that you are going to get then u go for a tune to keep costs down (tune after each bolt on is too costly). Then u will get the combined benefits of all the breathing mods.

[@mq1405]

Ofc u will loose power with the Suzuki, the pod filter is sucking in hot air which is less dense because it’s placed on top of the engine with no heat shield, also the car isn’t moving so there is no cold air coming through the pipe infront of the pod filter to feed it with cool air, and on top of that u should get a tune when u install an exhaust and an intake because the air to fuel ratios will be different and won’t work well with the stock tune

[@not12listen]

For the Peugeot the expanded exhaust piping will have the impact of lowering exhaust velocity, this directly impacts the scavenging effect, which directly impacts the air fuel ratio (aka. power). Going from a 2.0 inch pipe to a 2.25 inch pipe would have minimal negative effects in the lower RPM range while giving a bit more breathing room for higher RPMs. Going from 2.0 inch to 3.0 inch (without large displacement, a turbo or supercharger) will result in a loss of power. Dale covered the basics of this on MCM2 2 weeks ago. As per the Peugeot intake, I would wrap every joint/connection with tape, just to make sure there are no leaks, as any air leaks past the air metering device will have a negative impact on the air fuel ratio. The ECU is expecting a certain amount of metered air, but the reading via the oxygen sensor is different (ie. there is more air present than expected), which the ECU will react by changing the amount of fuel being delivered - thereby taking the engine outside of it's tune operating zone. More air and more fuel is only good if it can be leveraged (ie. it is tuned for that volume), otherwise it is wasted. Along with that, the Peugeot (being much older and likely not maintained) should get new spark plugs at a minimum. If the existing ones are high on the time usage, they will also be out of their efficiency range. Per the Swift intake... The filter element placement is really poor. If possible, I would rotate it to be away being directly over the engine, then try to get/make some ducting that would channel air from the front of the vehicle directly to the air filter. That would help to mitigate the negative impacts that intake clearly has.

[@ZadEctor76]

You need to map the ECU to use that extra airflow (both in and out)

[@djeq721]

This - Surely that is what's missing?

[@jossdauncey4986]

As long as the maf sensor can see the extra air flow and the iat sees it's cooler, the ECU should raise fuel trims accordingly. You've got a bout 20% injector duty cycle as headroom remember 👍

[@ZadEctor76]

@@jossdauncey4986 the stock ECU isn't adjusting that much, it can adjust a bit for hot or cold air, it can't cope with mechanical mods

[@circuscannon6381]

Yeah to use the extra hot air that is being sucked in from the engine compartment now

[@kondemnert]

@@jossdauncey4986 This is the right answer. For your typical non-turbo injection engine (not mechanical injection), the factory tables have more than enough headroom to cope with the negligible extra airflow from a fart can and pod filter. If you run full exhaust with headers and decat you will see gains with a tune, but even that should run better than stock with no remap.

[@shayispunkish]

Is the tyre size different between dyno runs? That will definitely effect power reading on the dyno.

[@jackrichards1863]

Yeah it is. That's why the results are irrelevant and also there was no tuning carried out which is essential to get the gains from mods.

[@shayispunkish]

@@jackrichards1863 it's not essential, of the tune was a bit fat stock (which they pretty much all tend to be), opening up intake and exhaust can improve volumetric efficiency and give some small gains. Bigger gains can be achieved with tuning.

[@jackrichards1863]

@@shayispunkish pretty much. Still those efficiencies are pretty clean so they should be able to capitalize on the change. Very hard to beat a factory assembly now I'm the performer cars like the Sport or Peugot, or the hot Golf is hard to improve on those hot models

[@andronikosandronikou9587]

im not a mechanical engineer either but you have put the swift air filter near the engine and it consume the heat, better to be down with some stainless steel pipes or the stock filter with a big air scoop. +bonus a sprint booster will be a good idea. If you want extra power you have to remove or uptade catalytic converter and headers and then all together will work and you will see some results.

[@Mrmassikar]

Pod filters work if correctly placed & benefit more from direct cool intake piping and if you can heat shielding / sealing from the rest of the engine bay so cold air only

[@ewingfox6459]

Insomnia FTW!!

[@WyFoster]

Hell yeah! LETS GOOO

[@nate961]

When you increase the mass of your wheels you will loss kw and nm. The hot air intake will also contribute to the power loss. Had this happen to my n/a track car on the dyno. Throw the stock wheels back on and dyno the vehicles again, you will see the difference.

[@Doogleraia]

A lot of cars will not have self-learning ECU's, and when you just throw more air at them, they'll struggle with matching up the AFR and start to attempt compensating for reading what it perceives as wrong values and end up cutting power because it thinks it's too lean etc. Some cars come with self-learning ones that you just need to leave the battery off of for an hour or so, then teach it the injector profiles etc through driving it again after the reset and have a lot of sudden stops from choking out the engine as it's learning. Evo 7 to 9 ecu's are known to be such ECU's that you can teach and also tune by connecting to, but for many folks it's better to pick the latter and actually head to a proper tuning shop to get dyno-run tuning done.

[@mikesleftarm84]

The intake and exhaust aren't a restriction on small displacement, naturally aspirated economy engines like this. They are cammed to make a certain power level with fuel efficiency taking priority. Manifold tuning and camshaft profile tuning are basically the only way to make any meaningful gains on N/A engines, especially small ones.

[@lukaz861]

For my Swift Sport the best air intake was Simota with "carbon" cover. It increased the stock power by 5hp. No oil on it so it doesn't foul the maf reading as well and grabs the air from directly in front of the cars bonnet (you can cut the bonnets gasket for better airflow in that part).

[@lukaz861]

@Absolute Mad Chad autocorrection hahah. It was meant to say Simota of course. And it's not a lie, I did 4 Dyno tests. Stock was 126bhp, air filter 131bhp, with full custom exhaust 136bhp and remap brought it to 142bhp.

[@ThriftMachine]

I'm waiting for adding lightness episode

[@mightycarmods]

Next ep 🎉

[@collussuspt]

Hi, mechanical engineer here. I could throw theories about what's going on but to be honest you should do what every engineer does, modify and log variables, not just engine power. Grab a laptop and log the ecu, especially these parameters : engine load, iat, mass flow and pressure at the manifold. Do this with the stock intake and the pod filter and you should tell right way what's the problem. If I could bet, the iat is probably higher with the pod filter, which with the same pressure at the manifold, reduces air mass, reducing power. Simple equation: pv=mrt

[@markmckerlie]

The free'er flowing exhausts also allow more heat out of the combustion chamber, which I've found can lose power unless ignition timing is advanced to suit.

[@TononiaWorld]

Exhaust and intake improve performance mostly on higher RPM. if the valve timing is adjusted for better torque a lower RPM the gain will be minimal or even get worst performance. In that scenario Valve timing needs to be adjusted. For intake running Pod filter and MAP sensor; having the filter in a box or where cold air is available helps both due to the cold air and the length of pipe improves airflow so the sensor can measure it correctly.

[@Dan_Divebomb]

I work as a calibration engineer in the automotive industry (we do essentially what Scotty does when they install a Haltech and he puts all the numbers into the maps and tables but our ECUs are from Bosch, Denso, Delphi etc). I've worked at a motorcycle oem before and now I work with diesel engines that have been converted to hydrogen combustion. I assume that the ECU of the Swift works pretty similar to what I've seen on the motorcycles and how I think haltech ECUs work as well (I have never worked with one before). It's a lambda=1 concept, which means that you open the throttle blade according to a accelerator input (ride by wire, or actual wire, doesn't matter) and then the ECU squirts the fuel into the port according to the measured Air Mass and the defined lambda (somewhere between 0.95 and 1.10, in stationary load points). So in theory if everything (temperature in dyno room, humidity and ambient pressure) is the same on both days and you install a "less restrictive" air filter you'd have less pressure drop at the filter element (which is very very small anyways on clean, stock intake systems). So with less pressure drop at the filter element you have theoretically more Air mass jammed into the engine and for the same "lambda setpoint" at full throttle the ECU would inject more fuel and thus generating more power. However, we are talking very minimal differences (think of the leaf blower in the turbo chargers mythbasted video). So even if you could measure a small increased AirMass and the ECU would inject more fuel you could probably not even measure it at the wheels due to the dyno tolerances. However you do suck in hot air directly over the engine instead of ambient temperature which probably negates all the theoretical wins you could get earlier and you probably lose actualy measurable power by removing the intake manifold that's most likely tuned to produce a certain HP at a certain rpm. In theory shorter intake manifolds yield in power higher up in the rev-band and longer more in the middle (that's why some N/A cars have switchable air paths). Which length and diameter leads to which increases at which rev point is very scientifical and I wouldn't know how to calculate that. It's safe to assume though that it very much depends on the engine parameters and for all we know the "sweet spot" of this K&N manifold might be at rpms way beyond the rev limiter of this little car, or much lower. Have you plotted the power curves on top of each other for every run? Would be interesting to analyze. You can lose power with the warmer intake temperature, the (I assume) "untuned" intake dimensions, dyno tolerances, weather conditions that specific day...oh and does it have a knock control? Atmospheric pressure and temperature influences the knock tendency on petrol cars as well, so maybe the knock controller dialed the ignition back a little, that's probably a much bigger factor than anything else.

[@khalebcanton]

Good quality pod filters are fantastic when used in the correct application. Turbo setups with a constant stream of fresh air and closed intake systems that utilise a pod filter will yield good results.

[@davidschmidt9291]

Had this same kind of thing happen to a buddy's lancer years ago, put the filter right on the mass air. It made great intake noises but tanked his low end and full economy. Then added a foot or two (still made intake noises) and the car was preforming much better.

[@IrisPPG]

It's because in both cases, the MAF sensor scaling needs to be retuned for the new tube and the rest of the map adjusted for the change in air volume. If the exhaust are full systems (not just catbacks) same applies to the exhausts. Another factor is that the factory intake is pulling cold air from the front of the car but the new ones pull warm air from the engine bay.

[@kc550]

The best bang for the buck is to modify the existing airbox. Remove the silencer and figure out a clean way to fill the hole. Add reflective heat tape/wrap to the airbox to reduce heat soak. Then get a high flow panel filter to drop in.

[@gordonlawrence1448]

Way way back in the day I used to tune RD350s. K&N filters along with the exhaust were always the first thing to sort out. However unless you up-jetted the carbs it would lose power. With "Allspeed's" which gained midrange it was two jet sizes bigger and "Micron" three. This was on top of altering squish clearance down to 0.9mm and the porting and gas flowing. I was no Stan Stephens but we were regularly top 5. I would therefore suggest you might be running a bit lean.

[@lukewilliams1188]

Your pod filter was mounted above the engine so it pulled in warmer / less dense air. Your stock filter box has longer, thinner pipes - that helps increase the air velocity going in. Your stock box also has a cold air duct going to the front of the car.

[@chrisa6120]

When testing the Suzuki Swift wouldn't having the hood/ bonnet closed improve the air intake performance. Especially with that K&N configuration with the hose spitting "cold fresh" air (supposedly) on to the filter located almost at the firewall.😮 Maybe try moving the filter to the lowest point possible towards the front bumper to get to the said cold air. Maybe remove the right fog light, and put the filter if possible in that area then feed it back to the throttle. An possibly heat shield wrap the piping as well. Plus bigger intake pipe doesn't mean better performance ether.

[@jchapman4494]

On modern motorbikes it's essential to get a fuel controller if you put a high flow filter and free flow exhaust on. Stock ecus are set lean, so they can pass emission laws. No doubt cars are the same

[@grapsorz]

i know a pod filter close to the MAF the "bad air" sometimes mess with the sensor. so a tube and a grid might work. here we some times replace the injector's and adjust it with a bigger MAF sensor housing. that is if the car can use some extra fuel etc. and then the throttleboddy is upgraded if that is a restriction.

[@xclusivejdnld3863]

If i am not mistaken a modern ECU needs time to adjust. Meaning make a decent number of miles and go back to the dyno. I have no idea if you drove the car for some decent time after installing the filter but this might be part of the issue where the ECU did not adjust for extra airflow yet. Also keep in mind a stock ECU will only adjust in small steps due to always being on the safe side of things. Also the location of the filter might have a negative effect in the case of the shift. The "intake" pipe is a nice addition but it is still in the hotspot of the car above the engine. Every aftermarket filter or intake i ever placed in a car was always either right behind the coolers or in the bottom of my engine bays for optimal fresh air. Or i used complete intake kits taking air from the front through an enclosed housing to the filter for minimum temperature effects from inside the engine bay.

[@cudak888]

Moral of this story: Multi-billion dollar manufacturers with huge R&D teams usually know what they're doing to squeeze everything out of their motors, even if they have to meet efficiency standards. It's not the 1970's anymore, where manufacturers of carbureted vehicles were forced to cripple their motors just to meet smog standards - every trick imaginable is being used to create excellent performance right off the showroom floor, as increased engine efficiency also means better economy and emissions in general. About the only place where restrictions tend to exist still is exhaust due to noise regulations - and even then, a lot of stock exhausts do pretty well out of the box. _Mighty No Mods!_ Also, do we know if the ambient air temps were the same on both runs? Engine bay temp? There are so many variables here that can cause loss/gain of power that I'd venture to say that the losses seen here aren't necessarily due to the modifications; both cars are likely putting out the same power they did prior to the modifications. I will say that it's a delight to see that STUPID $500 K&N filter and dangly tube lose power though. There's no world where that should ever work. That's not a cold air intake, that's a _hot air_ intake sucking in nothing but engine bay air. Ridiculous.

[@Yan1nc]

Moog's car is MAF based and the filter is super close to the Engine so even if the filter flows way more the MAF included air temp sensor, is probably seeing that massive jump in temps and reducing timing

[@bolland83]

Modern engines are pretty much tuned from the factory to squeeze out as much power/efficiency as possible while still being reliable. Many factory exhaust manifolds have started to resemble headers, and intakes are tuned to fit what the engines can flow. Without doing an ECU tune and being able to see what's going on as far as AFR and timing etc. you're basically just slapping on a part that is not optimized for the factory tune, and mismatched to the existing intake/exhaust manifolds.

[@pab702]

When I put a K&N intake (just like yours) on my 2001 Accord, it worked good during winter time. But during the summer here in Las Vegas, I got worse gas mileage and my already slow car got slower. I eventually sold it.

[@f4rensabri]

The problem with the K&N intake kit is probably air flow. The whole hit probably makes actual power if the car is on the road (moving air) instead of just static on the dyno with a fixed fan in front.

[@harrybruijs2614]

When you had the expert there on the podfilters, het said that having it on top of the block would result in hp loss and you should construct a cold airintake. So no surprises. If you want to go for weightredu tion after ditching all the mats, rear seat and rest of the interior, throw dry ice in the footwell, let it evaporate, take a hammer and brake the tar and remove it. Then put primer on the bare metal.

because your mass airflow sensor and your 02 sensor cut your timing and fuel back to maintain the pre programed air fuel ratio in open loop. not only that you could have lost more or possibly gained when you when you close the hood and the temps go up. wouldn't effect the Peugeot as much. you need to tune it so the AFR matches the extra air. then your mass and 02 will start working like there supposed to and you'll get a little extra power.

[@Zoid2025]

Really like this episode as I have been down this path with my old Ignis Sport. Lost power with a K&N pod filter. Put back the stock box with a drop in K&N filter and gained back the power. Dont understand the engineering behind this, but I just named it Suzuki sorcery and moved on.

[@knight2425]

I heard once that it’s not always beneficial to have free flowing intake as having some turbulence in the intake helps fuel air mixture and gives more power

[@PLAYERSLAYER_22]

it only makes less power if the car is otherwise stock. if you tune the ecu by sending it to a company itll fix the top end of the rpm band from running lean and losing power. the ecu can only tolerate 5-10% extra air than it expects before running out of injector pressure to keep up with the high intake volume.

[@WayBetterDenYou]

I'm thinking it might be due to heat soak. The oem filter on the Swift was enclosed and possibly draws cooler air from a different area. The intake sits right behind the engine where all the heat is.

[@cyclistman6358]

The K&N cold air intake is actually a HOT air intake since it’s located directly above the hot engine. Which as we know cold air makes more power than hot air.

[@RobertL78]

I put a K&N system on mine and data logged. Intake air temps sitting in traffic were 60 degrees F higher and the engine would ping on acceleration from a stop. Went back to stock and temps dropped back down.

[@michaelwolejszo6445]

A lot of cars made now have very well engineered intake systems. For my car it got the most hp gain by just swapping out the factory filter with an aftermarket one. No change in any tubing just stock box.

[@shadowred1980]

The dyno run needed the A\F ratio logging. Without it we don't know what it's doing. If the ecu is seeing something it doesn't like, it can also be pulling timing out. I remember years a go, roadkill garage used a mustang to test intakes. The only one that made power was the one that came with a tune. The rest all lost power.

[@thewacokid0000]

Heavier wheels/tires, wider tires, sticky tires, and a different dyno (with different weather/temperature)...all of these explain the difference, IMO. If you put the stock skinny wheels/tires back on with eco tires you'll see a big increase in measured power. Slowing the ramp rate on the dyno could help be more accurate too.

[@neonnerd1364]

In a lot of cases like Marty said you can free up the extra air but without a tune to compensate for the added air your ecu will cut back the fuel in order to maintain the afr. Also the tube moog used wasn't a good tube. Before the manifold you want smooth tubing for faster more free flowing air since your manifold will automatically create turbulence to mix the air and fuel before entering the engine. A better tube and a tune would've probably freed up a few hp/kw.

[@thehomelessproject3784]

The biggest reason is with these cars the ecu cannot properly adjust AFR and maybe pulling timing or any manner of other things to compensate... with a tune you would be able to make the most of the better flowing parts... some cars can make power without a tune like the 6.2 c63 which has been held back from factory just changing the exhaust can get you 30 - 50 hp.... on a na v8 🤯

[@thanoszitouniatis2385]

I think that you must apply ecu tuning/remap to work your K/N air intake. Because MAF sensor has "changed position", has more cold air and better flow. So the MAF sensor dont read properly

[@daiyaanomar5528]

The K&N filter was mounted on top of the motor so it’s basically sucking in warm air, maybe route it more towards the front of the car so it sucks in cold air

[@russelljohnson4527]

I was watching a Car Modification video some years back where they ran pod filters vs. stock set up. the dyno test showed stock to be better. (it was YOUR video!)

[@jonzo22]

If you do tune the car to use the aftermarket pod filter, you should then put the STOCK intake back on and see if the power goes back down, it might prove that aftermarket air intakes really do nothing!

[@jackgelderd7458]

Use the CTC Performance Intake on the swift! it relocated the battery and the pod goes at the front, its the best intake for the swift platform!!!!

[@annex-rc]

I can’t believe K&N designed it like that! All that heat soak on top of the manifold is crazy. Was there no heat shield? These pod filter looks like a very old skool setup

[@ambrosepearce413]

Try making or using a intake pipe that gets the K&N pod closer to the front bumper and cooler air. It's just sucking hot air off the top of the engine.

[@thegallantsaint2034]

I see the issue is at the MAF sensor. The new filter alters the flow, so that the MAF sensor is out of calibration. It can result in a LOWER reading than it really is, this results in the ECU commanding the fuel injectors to inject less fuel, therefore decreasing power.

[@gaz7097]

Wheel+tyre size can effectively change the gearing giving you different results. You both lost power was it hotter today than last time? What was the humidity like? Some ecu's don't adjust for extra airflow/fuel. It would have been interesting to see the results if you'd put the stock intake back on and run it again straight after.

[@bruceverburg8840]

The stock Intake is specifically designed to condense the air intake through the channels that they made in the intake. Why you lost power is most probably due to the pressure build or "flow restriction"... if I can put it that way you lose power. Best way to make power with the pod filter would be custom ECU or Flashing the ECU to boost performance. I use to drive a Ford Figo. I installed a pot filter as well and went on a deep dive on to why that happened but that was a while back.

[@dylandesmond]

Also of your exhaust is larger, your scavenging is less, so if you cant hit the hp target, in your case its higher rpm to reach hp, but seeing as you have stock cams, your air box would have been tuned to that specific rpm range. If you want to increase your scavenging on your exhaust you can run the same size extractors but have them longer to the catalic. Also wrap the extractors with dei titanium wrap, this will increase scavenging due to increased temperature exhaust temp. It will also keep engine bay temps down. As for your air intake, if you really want hp... put a 8inch ram air scoop in the front bumper .. run the stock airbox, gradually downsize the piping. What will happen is the largest area of the intake is pressure build up as it cannot flow. This pressure will cause air to be forced down the piping at a quicker rate. The reason you want the stock intake size is to maintain torque at low rpm. Make sure it only has 1 intake and is fully air sealed on its path to the valves.... a clean pcv valve will need to be used if the car doesn't have 1 already. 3rdly, $5 bonnet vents place on the outer parts as front as possible create a higher flow of air pressure through the radiator as it sucks the air out, also engine bay temp will be lower resulting in hp gains. If you place the vents closer to the windscreen or closer to the middle of the bonnet it will have a downward force and the radiator will get hot and engine bay temp will be higher. Last thing you need is your radiator fan turning on at high speed....