Mindscape 265 | John Skrentny on How the Economy Mistreats STEM Workers

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Blog post with audio player, show notes, and transcript: www.preposterousuniverse.com/...
Universities and their students are constantly being encouraged to produce more graduates majoring in STEM fields -- science, technology, engineering, and mathematics. That's the kind of training that will get you a rewarding job, students are told, while at the policy level it is emphasized how STEM workers are needed to drive innovation and growth. In his new book Wasted Education, sociologist John Skrentny points out that the post-graduation trajectories of STEM graduates are more likely to involve being chewed up and spit out by the tech economy than to end up with stable long-term careers. We talk about why that's the case and what might be done about it.
John Skrentny received his Ph.D. in sociology from Harvard University. He is currently Professor of Sociology at UC San Diego, and has previously served as the Co-Director of the Center for Comparative Immigration Studies and Director of the Yankelovich Center for Social Science Research.
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[@jonwesick2844]

Glad somebody is finally talking about this. I spent 10 years in college to earn a Ph.D. in physics and followed that with a 3-year postdoc. It was a real slap in the face when I learned nobody wanted to hire me. To add insult to injury, Congress continued to pump out H1-B visas to make up for the "lack of American scientists and engineers."

[@koolguy728]

When you say nobody wanted to hire you, do you mean within academia or in general? People with physics background are highly sought after as data scientists, consultants, and analysts of all kinds in the tech and finance industries.

[@jonwesick2844]

I mean in general. Even with a physics background, I was not highly sought.

[@aidenmurphy9924]

To be fair, the type of physics matters a lot also! Some physics fields are booming and others struggle for funding.

[@tonybowen455]

This one was so good. Thank you!

[@scrubjay93]

Sean was a threat on the court but secretly loves kittens💚Thank you for the interesting, if slightly depressing conversation with a very nice guest.

[@Initialgs]

I was thinking, man, those poor burn n churn STEM types, then I remember I’m a graphic designer and cry into my coffee (20th cup of the day). As a designer, combining the arts, creativity, psychology, sociology and statistics. One foot in both STEM and the Arts… All of that, knowing some AI software can have some numbers plugged in and do in a second what I just spend two days doing… progress I guess….

[@jps0117]

Totally agree with Sean on the use of acronyms. There are too many of them and I can't keep up with them. They obfuscate meaning and interfere with communication. And what an amiable, engaging guest!

[@hopperpeace]

thank you

[@ch3l53a1]

This episode dovetails nicely with Mindscape 69 where Cory Doctorow discusses the systematic removal of antitrust regulation that has led to privatised monopolies in the US Tech sector.

[@koolguy728]

Great episode as always Sean, but in all honesty this one was a hard listen. While interesting, I think these topics hit very close to home for a lot of us.

[@vernond3515]

I want to buy this book but Amazon UK doesnt have it :/

[@user-he1qr7jg1y]

It's great to apply IEP to STEM workers, but why can't we apply it to HR and management? Assess their strengths and weaknesses, work out a plan for their education in how they manage people and the way they utilize their resources to have the largest positive impact on society, while also demonstrating how this positively affects profit for a company and its shareholders. The problems always roll down hill and we talk about the STEM candidates and STEM workers, but it looks like they and their education are not the actual problem. Try liking to point the finger where a finger is due. Do we fear offending the faces connected to the hands that feed us? I'd rather cut off the hand while focusing on the face, because that is the bare and simple truth, as best as we can see it.

[@briand3d]

It's sad that you can choose a STEM career without knowing the downsides. My engineering career in Silicon Valley lasted an all-too-short 22 years. Since I was a Vietnam era draftee, and attended college for 5 years to snag another degree, I was older than my peers. With the H1-B visa flooding the valley with young foreign workers, and the downturn in the tech sector around the year 2000, ageism hit me in the face and my career was gone!

[@jonathanbyrdmusic]

If we want people to innovate, we need to bring the arts along for the ride.

[@gtziavelis]

S.T.E.A.M.

[@yonaoisme]

no. innovation has nothing to do with arts. literally every scientific and engineering endeavor requires innovation. it's just the way we teach stem that needs to motivate people to think outside the box, not trying to conform to a social norm.

[@phenghs2007]

Where is the AMA? Is he not doing them anymore?

[@luizarthurbrito]

Just a break for January

[@erichodge567]

What a thoroughly depressing conversation. Don't get me wrong; it was interesting and illuminating, but it just served to underline an eternal truth: capital always wins in the end.

[@mcconkeyb]

Been there, done that! Unemployed for 10 years now.

[@yonaoisme]

start a business

[@mcconkeyb]

@@yonaoisme Working on it! But the skills that make you a good STEM employee, are mutually exclusive to the skills needed to run a good business.

[@yonaoisme]

that's true, sadly. but it's much easier to teach a stem guy business than a business guy stem.@@mcconkeyb

[@user-xg1ie2kc9p]

Yeah, but when are the massive body merger stages going to be hashed out? #ringdown #gravitational waves

[@and1play5]

I’m a 76er fan too sean

[@goblinlordx6108]

Just a thought... I think he touches on thsi but then somehow completely misses it. Regardign software engineering, the labor just scales better in comparison to many other fields. It takes less time to train for than other high paying jobs and the impact a single engineer can have as far as profit is significantly different. If you train a single lawyer, their ompact and effect is highly dependent on their labor. For software, the engineering part of training can be leveraged to increase the reach for audience and be used as a force multiplier for their own labor. This isnt something you can just train away in a different field or incentivise away. It doesnt make other competing foelds more scalable labor-wise.

[@johnnymetallica1039]

How about +10k colleges in India, come to America with degrees, experience, 0 college debt on H1-B indentured servant visa where you and (now) your spouse can undercut the wages of the American grad in debt to the tune of $100k-$200k, get permanent residency, and citizenship. What a country! Brought to you by the unelected billionaire managerial elite.

[@andrelobo1272]

I'm brazilian and I have superior education, I have read lots of books on science, philosophy, religion, literature, etc, I have written 8 books, and I have never made a minimum salary. Education doesn't mean anything when comes to money, it's all about the people you know and how corrupt you are.

[@ericnr9781]

irmão se tu se formou em "Sexualidade" realmente não sei o que espera. Realmente é possível ser bem educado e desempregado, mas isso é por que tu escolheu algo que o mercado não valoriza. Se você nunca ganhou um salário mínimo talvez deveria considerar virar sacoleiro de mercado

[@yonaoisme]

not all education is equal.

[@EWischan]

Workers are disposable.

[@DontKnowHowToSayNo]

Nope

[@yonaoisme]

@@DontKnowHowToSayNomost will be. 99.9% of work that people did suring the history of humans is non-existent today.

[@itzhexen0]

The internet has screwed all of us over. If people were actually smart this never would have happened.

[@MNbenMN]

A person is often smart, but people are often not.

[@itzhexen0]

@@MNbenMN I wouldn't say anyone on this whole planet is smart. We're all going to the same place. You could say the government is smart because they basically control everything. But the government isn't a single person and they let all this crap happen in the first place which makes them not that smart.

[@walkingcarpet420]

Incorrect. The internet is great, it's not all doom & gloom because some people misuse the technology.

[@itzhexen0]

@@walkingcarpet420 That's one opinion. I remember when all of those books were being pirated and the world was teaching everyone to be a coder for free. What's the point of going to college or school if everything is just online and noone follows the law. Yeah just teach a bunch of strangers on the internet so you can make money and become famous. Well that's what happened and here we are. Copyright doesn't mean anything, everyone and their mom is a coder, it's ridiculous. But yes there are some entertaining things on the internet if you're looking for entertainment also a bunch of crap too.

[@itzhexen0]

@@walkingcarpet420 like why would you want to make any software or write any books or be a teacher. There is no point in doing any of that except that you yourself need money.

[@tomekczajka]

Software developers working long hours isn't "mistreatment", it's a highly paid job and if you work long hours you can be a lot more productive per hour in that field. This guy doesn't understand economics.

[@Rattus-Norvegicus]

Oh society mistreats STEM workers? During a recent cold spell a homeless man froze to death on the street. I work 36 hours a week but since I don't have health insurance I can't afford to see a doctor about bleeding from places PLURAL that I shouldn't be, but the economy mistreats STEM workers. Smh, I certainly hope you get a raise so you don't have to suffer any more...

[@steliosp1770]

Your enemy is not other working class people. Your enemy is the capital. Wake up.

[@yonaoisme]

it's very simple: stem workers get paid much less than they create value for society. you don't contribute much value for society, and because you're living in a country without any social programs, you suffer the consequences.

[@gtziavelis]

surely I'm not the first to coin S.T.E.A.M. -- the A is for Arts, which nicely fits in with the rest of those categories, and we certainly need more NON-starving artists as part of the economy.

[@yonaoisme]

if they actually contributed to economic growth...

[@sudazima]

for the love of god dont use the stupid term STEAM, the whole point of STEM is to mean skilled technical people. art is the opposite of that.

[@albertomartinez714]

Sean Carroll makes me proud to be [part] White

[@SnoopGotTheScoop]

🤨

[@yonaoisme]

we do not tolerate racism