Warhammer: The Old World | Six Months On | Will the Community Wait for The Old World?

[@mill_8108]

GW having not posted an old world article or update on their website since mid april is mindblowing and has been concerning for some time. They often post 2-4 articles a day and we have seen none specific to TOW A few weeks during AoS4 launch I can understand, wanting the breathing room to not step on your other product launches, sure. But 3 months? Half of it's lifespan so far has been radio silence from what I can tell? I am HOPING this implies they are reworking some things, maybe shifting their plans for the game - taking it more seriously and updating/fixing a few things.... But i'm not so sure... I'm somewhat happy as long as the old miniatures are available and maybe there's a spattering of new miniatures that fit in with the old as I'm mainly in it for painting, but having a healthy game and community for it is what will ensure that it lives on.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Some very good points.

[@Benjam311]

"as long as the old miniatures are available " agreed. However, so much is out of stock/unavailable. I've been waiting for grail knights, pilgrims, lady Elise, and the new paladin on foot model to be available in the US since launch... I don't understand how you can launch a game and not have the units for one of the two launch armies not readily available for customers. People will just move on and invest their time and money into something else. Logging into the UK portal of the website shows out of stocks for these items, as well. Is the game selling so good that they cant keep up, is GW just not producing enough miniatures, or is it a combo of both?

[@MiniatureRealms]

Definitely both, they can’t keep up with production across most of their games.

[@nomusenopaint]

Just thank you for your comment. Couldn’t agree more or phrase it any better way 🫶

[@saintetienne373]

GW Underestimated the amount of former WFB players that where not playing AOS or 40K and just playing non GW stuff until now. The relapsed player base is large and patient, i just hope the supers slow rate of TOW releases doesnt kill it.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Yep very much my fear. I don’t think it’s close to that yet, but if the next release after Dwarfs is also more than 4 months I can see that patience start to fade fast.

[@spnked9516]

It's not just the slow (largely unknown) release schedule that concerns me, but also things like price and the willingness to retain metal models (seemingly at random). A lot of hobbyists, new and old, have absolutely zero desire to work with metal, and even less desire to pay, around or above, $100 for models that range anywhere from 1-3 decades in age. There's also the simple fact that GW has already proven themselves to be untrustworthy and uncaring about their own franchises via torpedoing Fantasy in the first place. I can't, in good faith, recommend people invest in TOW when it means asking them to pay borderline modern prices to a company that has already proven it'll withdraw its own investment as soon as it can't be bothered to deal with the problems it creates for itself.

[@MrGunnar177]

With 3d printing and the fact that we have the rules. That’s all we need. The slow release won’t kill the game.

[@MiniatureRealms]

@spnked9516 The business model for TOW looks very similar to MESBG, especially when you look at the mix of older miniatures in mixed materials. I think it looks odd to us, but it’s probably a lot better thought out that in seems, and very likely the only way they were allowed to bring the game back.

[@MiniatureRealms]

@MrGunnar177 I hope not

[@tanen7264]

I’m glad the game is back. I’ve been around this game since ‘94-‘95. We have the rules and for me, that’s enough. I missed playing the old world. I’m happy to see the rules released and an occasional update here or there and that’s it. I don’t plan on using any of the old miniatures. GWs pricing is ridiculous and charging what they do for old miniatures just doesn’t sit right with me. There are some very good, high quality miniatures out there that I can play this game with for much less money. Even if they weren’t less money they look much nicer than the old sculpts. I realize there is nostalgia and some people like the old models and they fit in their collections and I’m 100% good with that. But I’m just collecting other models to build an army with, no high prices and no waiting for stock. Nobody cares what models I use in my area. But the cost aside, if there weren’t other models available I’d still play the game and just suck it up and buy the old models. This game doesn’t need to be a flagship GW game. It doesn’t need a new edition every two-three years or constant rules updates to shift the meta and endless YT videos on what the current best list is with graphs and charts showing win/loss ratios and spreadsheet breakdowns of unit efficiencies. Just give me the rules and some good lore stuck in there to set the stage and leave it at that. 40k has lost alot of its charm, it’s just endless tournament lists with bland armies being played that have no personality and games with no narrative theme around them. All of this is my personal opinion and many will probably disagree but just give me the rules so I can play with whatever old world army I want. Finish releasing the arcane journals and occasionally update something that might be a glaring issue and leave it at that.

[@MiniatureRealms]

I’m with you almost 100% on most of your points there, and I think as an SDS game, that’s pretty much where we’re heading in a lot of ways.

[@miketike3246]

Very nice summary of the first six months! I think it's been fantastic that GW re-released so many of the older models for the core factions. I know a lot of gamers are unhappy with "dated" models. But I think it's a really smart move to tap into the nostalgia of the old days. Even the OW Bretonnia starter which many consider to have clunky figures from 2003. I bought that set and I LOVE the old sculpts. I think they hold up well despite being 20 years old. Like you said, I think a lot of older gamers like me are just so thrilled to have the classic Warhammer feel back, the square bases and the Old World alive and vibrant again.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Thank you Mike, and you’re spot on. I guess we’re probably excellent examples of the ‘target market’ being happy with what we have, but some people more around the ‘edges of that target’ will (quite fairly) have some more reservations.

[@derekmcmanus8615]

I can't wait to get properly stuck into Warhammer the Old World the fact that a Warhammer store has recently opened less than 20 miles than me only gives me hope

[@MiniatureRealms]

Hope you have loads of fun when you get started

[@derekmcmanus8615]

@MiniatureRealms building new terrain pieces already mate 👍

[@joken-actual]

ToW has so far passed me by as I already have metal Beastmen and Dark Elves and deliberately avoided the ‘sold out in seconds’ pre-orders. Currently no one at my club is playing but there are certainly armies in cupboards so I remain hopeful. I’m waiting for the Beastmen release to trigger my next purchases; rules etc and maybe Wood Elves or Skaven in the future.

[@MiniatureRealms]

That’s understandable, and you’re going to be ready when you do feel like dipping a toe in.

[@KegAndKrow]

Great video! I’ve been playing Warhammer for 25 years (since 5th edition) and this is in my opinion, the best version of the game. Is it perfect? No. But it’s pretty close.

[@MiniatureRealms]

I think I’m pretty much there with you.

[@johnalevetsovitis1775]

Same boat. I am happy with overall balance and all.

[@SanFranSicko]

Great video! Personally, my long term hope for TOW is the following: 1. Eventual release of the legacy factions. (by far the most important thing to me - 4 of my 5 armies were legacy factions…) I love TOW but obviously it’s hard not to feel like the game is incomplete with such important factions missing. 2. Release of a second edition in 5 or so years, only as a tightening of the existing rules after having them be playtested for long enough. Honestly if they can just do those two things, leave the old models up for us to buy, and then never worry about TOW again except for maybe a yearly campaign book (maybe with a flavorful AoI thrown in for fun) I would so immensely happy!

[@MiniatureRealms]

I’d be very happy with something along those lines as well, and that’s certainly something SDS could achieve.

[@oli0208]

Thank you for this very balanced review.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Thank you 🙂

[@Genesee.Billiam]

I started stripping the paint from my badly painted childhood minis and raiding eBay after the announcement for TOW and am building out Dwarfs, Empire, Bretonnia, and Orcs. I’m hoping it gets to where Horus heresy is but I don’t want it to turn into a 3 year revolving relaunch that 40K and AOS have turned into. That’s probably going to take a few years and I’m here for a slow roll out. I’m really enjoying the detail in list building; I get what 40K and AOS are going for but I enjoy the granularity that the specialist games are offering. As far as the hobby aspect goes I’ve been posting old fantasy hobby articles/guides from GW publications to both of the large OW Facebook groups and people seem regularly excited for the hobby side of the game in a way I don’t see as much enthusiasm for in other GW gaming communities.

[@MiniatureRealms]

I totally with you on the benefits of a slower release schedule than 40K/AOS.

[@mogwaiman6048]

It will never have a 3 year edition cycle. None of the specialist studio games do.

[@Genesee.Billiam]

@@mogwaiman6048 with soon to be two children under three I’ll definitely need the slower pace just get in enough games to really learn the rules properly - I’m pretty hyped for the next few years 😊

[@MiniatureRealms]

Thankfully they don’t have a 3 year cycle, that’s causes no end of issues.

[@oldworldfanatics]

It’s brought me back into the hobby for sure!! And even launched a podcast 😜 The release is a little slow but I expect it to speed back up now their two central games have had major version releases this past year

[@MiniatureRealms]

And what I great podcast it is! I need to start listening on YT so I can comment there, it’s become a something I normally catch as audio and always forget to check in on the video as well. But topic in hand I agree, I hope they will try and catch up on any lost time with a couple of releases back to back.

[@LordGommos]

@@MiniatureRealms ah thanks for the kind words. Definitely trying to build up our YT content as it's so much nicer to have the back and forth with listeners in the comments and streams

[@chewieknievel8439]

I haven’t played a GW game since End Times and pretty much gave up on miniature games. Since release I have gotten my Orcs out of storage, rebased, new movement trays made, over four thousand points of army dusted off, primered over two thousand of it and started base coating. Also joined a local online club that plays at serval different stores and local club house and they already threw a tournament this June. (Unfortunately couldn’t make that one because of life stuff, but looking forward to future events.) Yeah, TOW has brought Fantasy Warhammer back for me and I am once again excited when I had given up on the hobby just six months ago. WAAAGH!! As for AOS, I will never get the bad taste of End Times out of my mouth and that’s the child of those days. I sold two and a half armies, two of them painted, for very little money out of despair because people were basically giving their armies away at the time. So I will never like AOS, just bad feelings will never go away.

[@MiniatureRealms]

So good to hear the game has reignited the old passion (and that you still had an army). I can understand the feelings towards AOS, and they’re definitely valid. For myself I’ve always separated AOS the game with the decision to end Fantasy. I know it was designed as its replacement, and the way it was handled was terrible, but over the years as it’s grown in popularity I just see it as separate entity. I see AOS players take a lot of stick for it as well, that’s always a shame.

[@chewieknievel8439]

@@MiniatureRealms Well I never blamed the players. You should play what you like without shame. It was the sense of my favorite game that I was playing at least once a week and played multiple tournaments a year was just abandoned by a company that I spent literally thousands on gave up on it instead of finding a way to make it profitable. And with TOW doing so well we see there was another way. They just made a bad decision.

[@MiniatureRealms]

@chewieknievel8439 Yeah most people didn’t blame the players of AOS, always a vocal minority (and I wasn’t suggesting you were, just to avoid any confusion). Sadly you see it all the time in wargaming, gamers being bizarrely tribal over their favourites and derogatory about others, can never understand myself 😂.

[@ergofargo]

I saw this video promoted on my ToW Facebook group. Yes good points in this.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Thank you. Ah I’m a member of your group, but didn’t know anyone had shared it there, that’s interesting(I wouldn’t have done it myself as I think it breaks your rules).

[@Sablus]

Just now getting into Old World cuss as a kid I never had the money to start WFB and then it died while I was in college, here's hoping we get to see releases speed up once we get into the fall after the Skaventide rollout is done. I'm really looking forward to the Wood Elves return to have alongside my Bretonnians, been really missing those army aesthetics

[@MiniatureRealms]

It’s going to be really good when all nine factions are out, and I think people will happily wait if they can see releases happening (and I’ve no doubt that will pick up after AOS 4).

[@mcyolicjones9081]

Happy to see it back and thriving in all sorts of communities no matter what GW does really. It’s simply a highly favored fantasy setting, whether it is the tabletop, PC, hobby or whatever. GW would do well to recognize that more and at least keep more of the cool new models in stock. Frankly, I’d rather see them outsource or pawn it off so it can more of be its own deal in more deserving hands this point. At least its sailing again. It’s always had a quite different appeal to me than AoS, 40k or even LotR.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Yes it is great to see it back, and with it being with SDS that’s probably the closest to outsourced it will become, so hopefully when their production facilities are better able to keep up with stock hopefully that allows it to grow faster.

[@loweloking88]

I feel you should’ve mentioned the wild success of the Total War Warhammer series. That series I strongly believe brought tons of people back to the fantasy community

[@MiniatureRealms]

Yes I think there are definitely a lot of people who have found the game, or kept in touch with the game that way.

[@bobdole8830]

The game was released directly after the end times. Some GW employees already admitted it was MASSIVE oversight.

[@arasandthevolodkas]

@@MiniatureRealms I'm one of them - I got a few 40k sets prior to old world release to get practice, I'm still making the 40k sets but can't wait to play

[@martialdoctor3482]

I encountered Warhammer Fantasy as a teenager when I bought a box set of Dwarves vs Orcs and Goblins. Unfortunately, I couldn't get any friends into it nor find anyone to play with. Fast forward 20+ years and I really got into Total War: Warhammer. When the 2nd one rolled around, I thought about the boardgame again. I looked into a local group and found that Warhammer Fantasy had been cancelled and that locals were playing the 9th Age. I took the dive and played quite a few games of that before I had to move. Now, with the release of the Old World, I've come back into it and am truly getting into the Warhammer game / community that I wanted. Our community here in Taiwan is quite small but growing. I'm hoping more expats will get into it (a few that I know are on the fence) although I'm also finding there are a good group of locals who have slowly been building armies. Either way, I have hopes for the future of the game. I really enjoy playing the game myself and I find the rules to be, mostly, well done.

[@MiniatureRealms]

I’m really glad to hear you’re enjoying it and this time around the local community is there for you, even if small now.

[@darnokx9277]

Seperate comment for a seperate topic: I would LOVE to see more discussion on "small TOW games". Think along the lines of Spearhead for AoS? Or just adapting the old "Border Patrol" rules from WD (around 2003ish). Something to get smaller games in faster, while at the same time opening an on-ramp for bigger games.

[@MiniatureRealms]

That does sounds cool, I think I know some who was working on that, not something I’ve looked into myself yet though.

[@g-monk2775]

Mordhiem? They tried Warcry

[@Svengar]

Nicely summed up there Stu. It has been a wild ride in the intervening years with mixed emotions across the whole range of feelings (tempered of course by the fact we are all talking about plastic toys) Overall I’m incredibly positive about the game still and have been busy at a constant pace with painting either newly released TOW minis or a mixture of previously owned and AOS minis as “modern” substitutes for something no longer available. I would love a bit more communication coming from GW in terms of release plans or just articles. Someone else said that many articles are released daily for other systems so the absence of TOW articles is even more clearly felt. I think the vast majority of people are mature enough to take on board whatever those communications are such as reason for the delay of dwarfs as surely it wasn’t intended to announce them so long ago and then not sell them. People who might have accepted a reasonable excuse might be the same type to fill in the blanks with unreasonable excuses lol so I don’t think it does help GW when they choose not to communicate Where we are now just needs a bit more patience and I feel we will all get what we want in the long run. The delay window right now is much shorter than the gap between the game being cancelled and coming back.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Thank you mate. I think as you’ve said communication would be the key learn here, the delay wouldn’t have been planned, but probably shouldn’t have allowed the silence. Hopefully they feel confident enough in the release schedule going forward that they can publish a roadmap.

[@Mr._A685]

I'm loving it!

[@MiniatureRealms]

Excellent, me too 🙂

[@caroldixon3251]

I used to work for GW and from a business point of veiw Fantasy was very hard for new plaayers to get in the the game (new younger players). For the younger players it was confusing and there was a vast amount of gate keeping. GW wanted a game that was in a fantasy setting for a younger audience. Not sure why they totally scraped it before but that is what age of sigmar was launched for.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Yeah fantasy didn’t do naturally ‘modernise’ the same way in which 40K did, it was much easier to slowly streamline rules for smaller units on round bases I guess. There was a lot to do with sales performance Vs 40K as well, and some IP stuff I think. Watching a lot of interviews with ex-staff over the last few years explains a lot of the why from back then, an interview with Alan Merritt on the @jordansorcery channel was very interesting in those regards.

[@Waaagghhh]

So my thoughts: - What a well thought out and well spoken video, this is fantastic, and we need more of this type of discussions in our hobby community so hats off to you - Specialist game: They don't have the resources that the mainstream games carry so I do get why the releases are not fast and furious - AND not to mention that 40k got a HUGE reboot, and that AoS is literally hours away from release, that we also saw OTHER GAMES by GW shut down until post-AOS launch, despite GW being a big company they still only have so many people/resources and they carry a much larger game base methinks than they have the resources for. And while they are making yet another factory it is not up and running, and I know that their other factories actually run 24/7 and they still can't keep up with stock! My guess: Now that AoS is about to launch this weekened (July 13, 2024 for the future viewers!) we'll no doubt see a return to the other games as they already advised we're getting: - Dwarf battletome - Tallarn Campaign book for Legions Imperialis - Admech for 30k Age of Darkness so be patient my fellow square based nerds and nerdettes, good times are around the corner still!

[@MiniatureRealms]

Thank you and spot on 🙂

[@johnnyb2909]

We are a group of 5 people who regulary play Fantasy, but they never wanted to touch another game like AoS or 40k. We are now waiting for some old world faction releases, to start playin old world. I hope GW stick to it and take it serious.

[@MiniatureRealms]

I think next year will be a very exciting year for the game.

[@keithsimpson2685]

I like the rules, I like the minis. Was able to get Orc Wyvern warboss and all the bits at teh cheaper rates by paying a bit of attention but stuff like artillery and char models are way more rare than they should be. Also PDF's of the leftover factions are cool as hell and OLDWORLDBUILDER and free rules online literally made me buy in, hope t hey realize that.

[@MiniatureRealms]

I think they do, they’re setting the foundations now, I think the chance to grow and cash in more will come later.

[@Karloss00]

I'd like them to at least list all the old 6-8th edition Fantasy models that are still around in Age of Sigmar in the Old World section. A lot of people often come into the gaming groups I'm apart of, asking "is this model legal in Old World" and it's a model released in 2007. The Whole Daemon Range should be there, and Beastmen too. My friend was gonna start Beastmen until they announced that they were retiring them, only to bring them back at a later date for Old World.

[@MiniatureRealms]

I think this would be really sensible as well, and they should be proud of ‘dual branding’ them. I think sadly it’s driven first separation of IP, but secondly down to internal accounting. It appears that each department may have its own targets, and products purchased under one banner being attributed to the ‘wrong system’. I can understand why internally each department wouldn’t want that, as success through sales might reflect on their ability to do future projects, but the customer gets a worse deal out of it. Unfortunately the way of modern corporate business means that the shareholder is the most important customer, so as long as the sales targets are met overall, these ‘internal’ adjustments would never really be seen as a problem or priority. You may have given me an idea for a video though…

[@chestersleezer8821]

Well the grade for price is a "F", I do not know how anyone can afford to get into it today. Just the rules and army lists would be around $135 with taxes then their is the price for the miniatures, for example two Ork chariots would be almost $95 with taxes. I have Empire/Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Ork & Goblins and Undead (not Tomb Kings or Vampire Counts) and there is no way I could buy any to these armies today due to the prices that GW is selling at. Just for Empire I have 100 Swordsmen, 100 Spearmen, 120 Handgunners, 85 Halberdiers, 80 Foot Knights, 60 Crossbows, 60 Crossbows and 20 Halfling Archers. That is 625 miniatures just in Infantry and I have dozens of Cavalry and 10 Artillery with crews. Now given what GW is going to over price things the Infantry alone would be near $2,000 the Cavalry somewhere between $500 - $600 and the Artillery being about the same or more. Now Empire is my largest Army but I have four more armies and the smallest in number of Infantry are my Elves and Dwarves with both being at 290 miniatures. Sure I have been collecting since the early 1990's but to field a 2,000 force for Empire today will probably cost at more than $500. So going to pass on these rules since their are better and cheaper rules out there.

[@MiniatureRealms]

That’s fair enough, GW games have always been expensive, the current prices reflect very well Vs the previous ones with inflation added, but that aside it’s certainly not a cheap hobby, and we have our own limits on what constitutes value to us.

[@Edward-Plantagenet]

@@MiniatureRealms It's all well and good factoring in inflation but miniature sculpting and quality has also improved significantly in the last 20+ years, most of the ToW models haven't.

[@MiniatureRealms]

There’s definitely an aesthetic choice to be made there. For every person who doesn’t like the old sculpts there’s someone else who is super excited to see them back, both opinions are equally valid I think. Looking at cost comparisons using inflation isn’t a perfect way of doing it for sure, but it’s a way of comparing relative cost of collecting an army based on something that’s factual. Aesthetics are subjective, and with all the alternative options out there it’s a buyers market for those who don’t like the old models back, great options for all.

[@andrewclarke520]

Pretty fair summary of things Stu, pity GW don’t seem to able to take a bit of constructive criticism from a fairly sizeable community and improve their comms on OW. Still we do now finally have the dwarves coming so am feeling much happier - despite the weather and football 😎

[@MiniatureRealms]

Oh yes, the Dwarf news was definitely the high point yesterday, it went down hill from there 😂

[@werwolfoberschlesien2625]

Don't know , since the start has been said that OW is not a flagship project. I play online using Warhall more than I do on the table. We don't know how rly Old World is performing sale-wise . Because some sets were out of stock doesn't mean that the whole range is popular again, people forgot that retro players and collectors tend to buy products that they miss not whole sets and ranges .

[@MiniatureRealms]

Yes it’s very clear TOW is not flagship, very much SDS. I do have some pretty reliable anecdotal information that sales have been very good, certainly enough to encourage them to forecast for high sales than originally expected. How that translates into actual stock or their ability to produce that stock is another matter.

[@apocolototh1948]

the Chaos update today relatively fast after the dwarfs was a step in the correct direction at least

[@MiniatureRealms]

Yes absolutely

[@mogwaiman6048]

TOW hasn't caught on where I live. It's a garagehammer scene according to the players I have spoken with. Conquest is preferred over it. The top two games are AoS and 40k. I do like your realistic expectations of TOW. Very well said.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Thank you 🙂

[@jordansorcery]

Great perspective and video Stu, agree with a lot of the comments shared!

[@MiniatureRealms]

Thank you Jordan 🙂

[@martinjrgensen8234]

ToW was developed for players who already had collections. GW stated in one of the early articles. I don’t think they expect it to sell a lot of miniatures

[@MiniatureRealms]

They’re definitely marketing at older nostalgic gamers, with some exceptions of existing collections for sure.

[@RenlangRen]

GW is not going to sell much if they don’t have anything to sell. I’ve spent about $500 the past month trying to get my Bretonnians back into shape, mostly on old models on eBay because GW is out of stock on the few things they have to sell.

[@danieltaege3155]

I have invested 400,- Euro into 3D printed armes. GW does such a crap release politic, I am not waiting for them with the miniatures.

[@Edward-Plantagenet]

Really happy for the people that have jumped on TOW, I hope GW don't mess it up (or abandon it), the delays to the Dwarf release were worrying though. To be fair the new sculpts look great. Having bought armies for Dark Elves, Bretonnia, Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts before they killed Fantasy last time I'm very much in the "once bitten, twice shy" camp for ToW, I don't plan on getting burned again and ditched everything GW except MESBG. Any interest that I would have had in ToW would definitely have been killed off by the release of 20+ year old models that are very much at current GW prices and the quality of some of those sculpts even back in the day was dismal. Middle Earth SBG still has many old plastics but they are sold at prices that are reasonable for their age and quality. If GW expect people to pay 2024 40K prices they need to be 2023/24 sculpts IMO, not 20 year old tat.

[@MiniatureRealms]

That’s all fair enough, I don’t agree that the old models are sold at 2024 40K prices though (especially the plastics, they’re way cheaper per model, and actually compare favourably to the last prices they were sold at with inflation added. I do agree it’s expensive though, especially some of the returning classic metals, they’re definitely going after the nostalgia market there, and some are more than I’d choose to pay.

[@Edward-Plantagenet]

@@MiniatureRealms Fair enough I suppose. The initial “sticker shock” of the £52 price tag on the Skeleton Warriors is what hit me, but I’m not that interested so didn’t look any further, but you’re right, that was worth £22 back in the 90s. What I most definitely wouldn’t do though, even if prices adjusted for inflation are correct, is even pay that kind of money for models that really should have been re-done. Ushabti for instance. As you say, it will most likely be the nostalgia that pushes the sales of a lot of the stuff, not the model quality. If I was looking to get back in I’d be mostly ok with the Bretonnians still, Dwarves too then use Sigmar Skaven. I just got burned too badly the first time around.

[@Knoffles]

That said, I’ve enjoyed the old world as a game. It’s not my perfect rule set and I think they missed a trick in not streamlining some of the rules and almost reversing some of the streamlining done in 8th Ed, but very enjoyable nevertheless. My main gripe is the upscaling of the base sizes. It really sticks it to those who also like to play older editions or don’t want to rebase 1000’s of models (unless everyone will have upscaled their bases). Yes you can use extenders or movement trays but it does add more time to the game. Having played a fair few games the change to magic is fine. Magic was the one thing that almost always changed radically between major editions. Having a much larger base of players again is nice but you can also see many of the WAAC players have returned. Hopefully the community can curb them.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Those kind of players will exist in any larger community, it’s about building a core of friends who play the game with a similar mindset, not always easy I know, but you get the most rewarding wargaming that way.

[@tiny_worlds]

I'm not waiting. I've rebased old armies and 3D printed new ones. The rules are already done. You don't need any more to play.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Yep I think many have followed suit

[@kevoreilly6557]

Same … even then didn’t rebase my base shaven hoard, just buy converter bases… thats about a 3,000pt army I did base Darkoath (warrriors of chaos) on rank and file bases - about 3,000 pts Just added some treekin and tree lords to my old wood elf army and added for 3d prints for hard to find models - 2,500 pts emcees about 3,000 treekin and dryads

[@DonKarlioni]

I have not been able to find a game since release. I can see it’s popular from KZbin etc. even my local GW “doesn’t have the facilities” for anything other than intro games. With the far improved mail order options from when I started playing WFB some 35 years ago, they don’t really need the stores to sell stuff they should be a place to let people play and show new people how much fun we have playing and hobbling. There always used to be events and the chance to play games in the GW stores.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Yeah GW stores are now a place to get people started in 40K & AOS really now, they have a use, but independent stores are more often better than them now sadly.

[@bingobongo1615]

I think the old world is a fairly good game. The many extra rules are kind of an issue for new players and the balancing isn’t great but overall a very solid release. And I think with the availability of so many chaos miniatures in AoS you can also build WoC as a 4th army. And some of the miniatures that return are absolutely amazing. Would never have expected the marauder giant to be back. But - the stop in releases now is very disappointing… Im waiting for dwarves and HE…

[@MiniatureRealms]

I’ve got a WoC army half finished from the AOS range (even with new bases it’s a squeeze, but nothing we didn’t experience with the smaller ones before 😂). Hopefully the armies you’re waiting for aren’t too far off (Dwarfs won’t be).

[@darnokx9277]

Thank you! This was an excellent summary of the "history" of TOWs making, as well as the first months of its existence as an actual product. Let us all hope things get back on whatever track GW wanted them to be - because the last few months they most certainly were not.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Thank you, and I have high hope we will see an improvement once AOS 4 is out of the way.

[@ratelmike8825]

Good morning Stu, I must say and i admit that my view on old world has changed from my previous posts on this discussion. Firstly the game itself was not the issue for me nor were the miniatures. I think the old miniatures were all pretty OK and had no issue with their return. Of course we want new miniatures, the new Bretonnian ones are amazing but that for me, wasn't my main gripe. It was the price point. What's made me change my mind on getting back into the game is players of the game and chaps like your good self with the fantastic paint guides you do. That and the emerging astonishingly good 3d prints or the likes of Victrix com8ng up with direct alternatives to GW. A group of gaming buddies and I are looking to get into the game as a project for the new year. For now I just hope the Bretonnian starter set and some key hero miniatures come back in stock.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Stock is a real pain, but can’t see why it wouldn’t be back again soon, I think most of the individual components are, so probably just waiting on one thing (maybe even a print run of boxes).

[@Kevin.Mitchell]

Six months in and I'm still painting up my Greenskins... I haven't played WFB since 3rd edition 35 or so years ago but I would like to get a game in at some point! To be fair, I have more than enough Orcs and Goblins to play a decent sized game already, just need to get my backside in gear and start rolling dice - just got so many other projects planned / underway and various games on the go (Hail Caesar Epic I'm looking at you).

[@MiniatureRealms]

I think you highlight that in many ways the slow pace is beneficial, and when every army has their release I think it will suit nicely.

[@Kallistosprom]

Great video, cheers for the sharing the thoughts.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Thank you 🙂

[@henriksorensen82]

I love The Old World. Of course it's not a perfect game, but I have a lot of fun when I play, the only thing I wish is that the rulebook was better laid out, because it's very annoying that when you want to check something, you have to check 2-4 places in the book to find out how a certain part works. Then again, I wish GW had planned better, because it's no fun sitting around waiting for a miniature to come back into stock, I can't remember if the Questing Knight Paladin came when Tow was released or later, but I've missed him every time it comes back in stock because I haven't seen the email from them that it is back soon enough. And now we sit and wait for the Dwarves to be released and the rest of the armies of course

[@MiniatureRealms]

I agree on that rulebook, it’s all there, but never where I expect to find it 😂.

[@joeswift403]

The bait and switch with Cathay and Kislev really took the wind out of my sails, there was ample time in the many, many months prior to release to balance expectations. A specialist game which is massed rank and file combat with large units is always destined to struggle with demand for kits, both WtoW and LI are struggling when compared to Necromunda or Blood Bowl, where one box and you're done. Magic doesn't really work for me, that's just a personal take on the game, it's not intrinsically bad, just that I prefer how magic played in previous editions

[@MiniatureRealms]

Some really good observations, and I think they were very ‘typically GW’ by not addressing how the plans had changed from original announcement to release, they constantly underestimate the communities memory. You’re absolutely right about a specialist game as the number of models required, I (and many others) predicted that it would have to follow a ‘MESBG model’ of old models with just a handful of new. Sadly so many of us have huge expectations, and see the relative size of GW and forget SDS runs like a smaller business inside of that. I’m just happy it’s back and with new rules.

[@radred609]

​@@MiniatureRealms "they constantly underestimate the communities memory" GW is doing well. they've had a lot of success and clearly have some increadibly passionate employees working for them. But their top level decisions are not being made by wargamers and it shows. For every awesome release, there's at least two squandered opportunities (and another abandoned specialty game).

[@MiniatureRealms]

💯

[@neilg9124]

Cheers for raising this discourse Stu, its nice seeing a tonne of people have enjoyed this release as much as me 😁 worth the wait in my opinion

[@MiniatureRealms]

Oh yes absolutely

[@spnked9516]

As someone who dabbles in marketing and organizational management for a living, I have something of a dire take on TOW. It seems to me as if TOW has been step up to fail - a second, final, grave for Fantasy to be ingloriously pushed into. It bears many of the telltale signs of a project management wants nothing to do with... - extremely small team with sparse funding - extended periods with little to no public communications - public commutations tend to be vague and lack substantive information - no effort to moderate consumer expectations - no (publicly available) roadmap/time line for growth/investment in project - truncated product line compared to orginal offering - few new or updated entries to product line - productline primarily consists of old product repacked and sold at a higher price point. GW management basically took three people from inside the company, gave them a budget that consisted of whatever the Necromunda team had in their pockets at that moment, and said "here's the IP that literally built us - bring it back, I guess. Oh, and you cant use half the factions 'cause of dumb internal non-compete clauses". Like, my respect to the TOW team - theyre trying (expect the guy who thought a bone dragon was more appropriate than a crocodile for the TK). But, my god, they were not given a winning hand.

[@MiniatureRealms]

That’s not quite how it works, but the outcomes are similar to a certain extent. SDS has quite a bit of freedom to work on its own projects, they’re almost like a semi indie company inside the big one. As it stands this is the only way we could see a return of Fantasy, there’s no way the main studio would work on a project that could impact and undermine their main two games. So yes, small team and small budget, and with that very often bottom of the queue for release windows, production windows, marketing etc.

[@Tulkash01]

I'm pretty happy with the state of the Old World, mainly because the community picked it up and is currently enjoying it. The game is not perfect and pretty wildly unbalanced (IMO) but it is also a lot of fun and very rewarding from a narrative prospective. The problem is that GW is treating it like it used to treat WHFB. The "Merrett doctrine" never went away in that regard. Personally I would love for GW to give tOW as much attention as Necromunda gets. At the moment even that seems unlikely, but perhaps it is just 4th ed AoS taking all the space for anything fantasy related.

[@MiniatureRealms]

I’ve heard that Tony Cottrell is a huge Necromunda fan, and that be the reason it gets so much of the SDS bandwidth.

[@Tulkash01]

@@MiniatureRealms Let’s say I’ve heard that Tony has quite a lot of freedom when it comes to what the Specialist Gsmes Studio decides to pursue. I just hope they give tOW the same attention they are giving Necromunda

[@MiniatureRealms]

@Tulkash01 Agreed, there’s a very passionate team behind the project, given then right support I think they can do great things with it.

[@Gage_Welch]

Great video. Want to give you some very light feedback as I can tell you’re trying to up your production value: Your B-roll stuff is great, but I think you can lose the random side profile takes. I think if you threw some B-roll there instead, even if they’re random board states of your painted models clashing would be better. I get trying to increase the production value but I don’t think those cuts are serving your intent there. Again, super minor, don’t change it if you like it. But if you were on the fence I’d vary there!

[@MiniatureRealms]

Thank you very much, I genuinely really appreciate that. I’m definitely playing around with ideas, and I wasn’t sure I was going to keep those (or not very often anyway). Appreciate the feedback.

[@brett7773]

I am surprised by the lack of support for this game from GW. I expected at a minimum one article a month on WCOM and one article per issue of White Dwarf.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Warcom maybe, and there should definitely be more. I don’t think we’d see much in WD, the target market for TOW is clearly 35+, and I don’t think many gamers in that bracket buy the magazine. SDS games will always have limited coverage in WD.

[@noserenda]

About a third of my grognard player group is interested, but GW is seemingly uninterested in our money so we have been building armies with historicals and 3d prints. Dont think anyone has been bothered to rebase our old or aos armies, im certainly keen to be able to play proper warhammer with them in the future potentially. I suspect it might get a second wind once they have released enough models a year or two down the line, that was certainly our experience with Necromunda and Titanicus, and they didnt open with the ugliest armies first :P

[@MiniatureRealms]

I think you’re right, sounds like they’re on target to sell enough to warrant the growth in a second edition, much like the games you mentions or HH.

[@gdubs7001]

I've played 2 games as I picked up the hobby only on this release, but both games were against some absolute gentlemen. So far the community has been super positive and every group centered on the Old World has been awesome. I do think GW needs to pick up the pace. Its weird how quiet its been, and how hard its been to get stuff in stock. As an American, I've had to rely on a community member to help me collect the models that have only shown up in the UK store; at this point, I'm just short Elisse, the dismounted paladin, and the mounted/unmounted paladin BSB for my Bretonnian army. I think legacy needs another look, as well as being allowed in tournaments, and some under/overcost issues need to be addressed, but ultimately this has been a good experience. I hope Q3/Q4 of 2024 sees the release of most, if not all, of the remaining armies.

[@MiniatureRealms]

It’s really good to hear you’ve had a good experience getting into the game, even with the issues getting hold of some miniatures.

[@JMACCSArmiesOfMiddleEarth]

I think it shows how little people want to play non supported games (apart from blood bowl for some reason). The rules and minis are still there to be played but few did. Even myself Im excited to get games in and glad i kept my armies i nthe attick for 15 yrs xD

[@MiniatureRealms]

It think you’re right when it comes to the larger communities for sure

[@earnestwanderer2471]

Initial reaction? Sort of worried about linehammer and herohammer. Having messed about with the game, much happier. I’m almost happy that re-release of older models has been slow... I like seeing all the work arounds people are finding.

[@MiniatureRealms]

The community has done a great job of getting armies on the table, be that old models, AOS range, 3D printing or alternatives, it’s been great to see.

[@connorshaw-case6030]

kinda hoping beastmen would come back in a major way and turns out they may have XD gotta repaint and repair my old army

[@MiniatureRealms]

I think we will see all the stuff that’s been removed from AOS repackaged, then a couple of new models added. Might be a while off though.

[@FullMetalPraetorian-j3b]

Only 3 armies released. None of which I want to play. Bring on dwarfs!

[@MiniatureRealms]

Hopefully not long now 🤞

[@dairewoods2544]

I have good news!

[@shagmetz]

I threw a temper tantrum 9 years ago and quit warhammer altogether. I had 7 fully painted armies and just started ogres. I kept everything untill about six months ago, i sold my empire, deamons and the ogres to help fund some new old world purchases. I wasnt going to sink anymore money into something i was unsure about. I kept WE, TK, Vamps, Warriors and Beastmen. These were the ones i had the most time invested in painting and the armies i played the most. I am loving old world. Its a bit of a PITA rebasing everything, but a small price to pay to play the game ive waiting for 9 years

[@MiniatureRealms]

I’m so glad to hear you kept those armies and are back enjoying the game.

[@josephjustice4553]

Great video! Everything was rolling very nicely and then go figure…AoS has to derail it…almost like a mini version of 2015. I’m starting to now wonder if the main studio is sabotaging the Old World’s obvious success.

[@MiniatureRealms]

I don’t think think it’s a cynical as a direct sabotage, but I it’s clear indicator of where GW main places it’s importance, and SDS games are definitely second in the queue for release and production windows.

[@josephjustice4553]

⁠@@MiniatureRealmsA very fair assessment and I realize my comment betrays an obvious bias against AoS. However, I see so much excitement over this game and the way GW is handling the game right now does not align.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Completely agree, and I really feel for the people at GW working on TOW and seeing its potential held back.

[@The_Captain40k]

@@MiniatureRealmsI genuinely think if given it’s proper headway OW could supersede AoS. Comparing the genuine buzz around the OW release to that around skaventide it seems to me the community is ready for a properly supported OW game and it’s only GW’s prioritisation of AoS that is holding things back. My entire 40K gaming group have switched to OW in the last 6 months.

[@MiniatureRealms]

It’s really hard to say, I mean I’d love to subscribe to the idea of a fully revamped Old World with new miniatures and support being bigger than AOS, but I’m not sure. AOS has been very successful for GW, it’s sold more that Fantasy ever did, and I’d argue it’s more modern game design fits with the modern market more. That’s not to say that Old World couldn’t be much bigger than it is though, I’ve absolutely no doubt that with more resources it could be more popular. Part of me likes what we have though (aside from not having all the miniatures released yet), I love that the SDS studio works slightly differently to the main studio, there’s a different set of rules and vibe there. Old World made my GW main would be a very different thing.

[@davidwasilewski]

For me, it was a toss up between going all in on The Old World, or on Legions Imperialis. I chose LI and don’t regret it. In my local meta the old world has gone quiet after an initial flurry of excitement.

[@MiniatureRealms]

I can understand that, my own LI projects have been stunted by the release being so close to TOW. Locally we have a strong LI scene as well, much of that is down to a solid Heresy scene before, it’s definitely helped the game locally.

[@scoticvsgossage9378]

Personally I’m getting tired of “Soon” being the only updates we get for TOW. Add to that the online store being constantly out of stock, and Made to Order items taking forever as well, and I’ll be surprised if the game has any staying power. You can’t generate interest for something that isn’t there. Only if you like Bretonnia and Khemri exclusively. Orcs notwithstanding.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Yep it’s not a good look sadly.

[@kurio85]

Fantastic game. Tow>Ix Age

[@MiniatureRealms]

🙂

[@g-monk2775]

I believe this game is going to take more social communication between the players, not GW. More events, more of everything from us. The pace and size of the release I'm good with but where GW could really shine is the release of new Armies. It has been a historic fact that GW doesn't support fantasy games much. Release what they can then crush it, I'm sure this is a business model. It really is up to us, we can make or break the game. As a personal note, GW isn't the only folks making fantasy models. As an artist I strongly support Etsy and the individual artist over the corporate manufacturer. Again it is up to us to accept this. Thx

[@MiniatureRealms]

The community definitely has a big part to play

[@Adamantos-Elean]

"never going to be the case" Thats what people said about the return of Warhammer fantasy, broaden your horizons and believe.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Very true, things can certainly change.

[@oneeyedwonderer6781]

I got tired of waiting so ive ordered a printed army , this isnt heresy where you can just release a marine box and everyone can play as 18 different factions on day one, its the summer and we have three.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Yes it’s so much harder to get this system up and running

[@TheDeliciousMystery]

Honestly it feels like it didnt hit the numbers needed for yet another warhammer wargame product line and its been quietly put on the backburner. I can't remember the last time i saw it mentioned in White Dwarf and i just think of the reasons they listed for why AoS happened being "people might scream for plastic wood goblins but they wont buy them in the numbers to validate it" and a lack of purchasing of kits validating the games existence compared to other lines and i wonder if there really was a huge change or if Total War generated the illusion of custom that wasn't there. To say nothing of people like myself that already have their Tomb King armies still. That means they get a rulebook sale and thats it. It feels like it was entirely based on the hope of new blood that hasnt really gotten in and its getting as much love now as Aeronautica did in its final year. It sucks but i dont know what they were expecting. Ultimately its a specialist game trying to be a full fledged wargame and the two ideas are rarely compatible. Stuff like Necromunda Thrives because its putting out a new mini every month and only has to balance that with the existing forces and a box of like 16 new minis every year. This feels a bit stuck between two ideas. Is it a specialist game for only the enthusiast that will never have the numbers and income of the war games it will be compared to? or is it a wargame we should expect to move at the release schedule of a specialist game and is a wargame audience going to accept that longterm?

[@MiniatureRealms]

I can say with almost certainty that it has hit its sales numbers.

[@burroc5536]

If they released Cathay and Kislev, wow, it would have been even bigger. Why they removed those is a mystery. Probably to focus on AOS, which will never be a 40K contender.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Hopefully they can still bring them out after the initial releases are done.

[@MortalAgenda]

Sadly the game hasn’t taken off at all in my area - no sense of why but the wargamers in my area either play historicals, or they play ‘new school’ games like 10th 40k and AoS. TOW will likely just be a painting project for me.

[@MiniatureRealms]

It’s something I’m hearing a lot. I think it’s a game where in many cases it’s an older community, so games are taking place at home more, within groups of friends who used to play or wished they did before. I’d always expect to see 40K & AOS dominance in clubs and stores, I wouldn’t expect to see TOW take over (though I’m sure there will be examples). The number of events lends to that as well, people playing in friendship groups or very often just at events. It looks to be popular and have potential, but it’s unlikely to be ‘big’ compared to GW’s main to games.

[@ComandaKronikk]

This is my favorite game ever, since it was released I have painted and played 3 whole armies (to an objectively good standard) and am starting my dwarfs now :D I try to get a game in every week and starting my own 3rd party 3d miniature retailing store :) I honestly think if this game never received any more support I would still be obsessed with it forever haha. Also consider that while there aren't as regular releases for the core factions its already a complete game. With 3d printing you can so easily find a full army of each and every faction legacy, theres even a LOT of sneaky directly GW scanned stls out there, which may especially entice those Dawi Zharr bois ;)

[@The_Captain40k]

Same I’ve painted 7k in the last 6 months all with AoS models… waiting for more to be released now!

[@MiniatureRealms]

Absolutely my all time favourite as well, if I hadn’t discovered 3rd edition Fantasy I’m not sure I’d be doing what I do now.

[@huwtindall7096]

I fear it's becoming the new Cursed City. So gutted if it does. This could be all conjecture and it's just production capacity issues and wanting to give AoS4 clean air.

[@MortalAgenda]

The lack of news is almost certainly to do with AoS 4 - GW always ease off on other product articles when one product is getting a new edition (see launch of 10th 40k last year). As for model releases, we’re getting one faction per financial quarter going forward.

[@huwtindall7096]

@@MortalAgenda yeah I hope so - what worries me is the dwarf announcement then no pre-order...

[@MiniatureRealms]

It’s definitely a production capacity/company delay issue leading it to miss its time slot before AOS. Other than that it’s done well, and it would have been unforeseen to a certain extent. Though I think many customers, who have seen how stock availability has been an issue across the board over the last couple of years, could have predicted issues like this happening.

[@MiniatureRealms]

A faction a quartet would be very reasonable for an SDS product, I’d certainly be happy with that.

[@chiddy786]

The only issue I see (short of my own impatience) is that this delay means people go to eBay and 3rd party suppliers to get minis on the table. So that when GW finally release minis for a given faction, the demand will have significantly decreased. This leads GW to see diminishing returns and then they stop supporting the game all together.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Yes this is one of my biggest fears as well

[@bobdole8830]

This was always supposed to be an experimental side project. GW looked at the secondary market and saw blood in the water, that's probably why they picked Bretonia and Khemri for their starter boxes, which is somewhat ironic because their secondary market prices were only that bloated because back then hardly anyone was actually playing them XD I'm pleasantly surprised the people running this project did put so much love into this game. This is the first time in years you could really tell from the rules and community posts, that this was an actual love project from the people making it, not just another game to pay the bills. It blew my mind when I read the article where they gave tips on how to build fillers for your regiments, to not have to buy that many minis. Completely normal 20 years ago, but unthinkable for big corporate era GW. Even if the big suits decide this game won't buy them enough Yachts, I'm still glad we got a decent and updated rule set and affordable access to miniatures that have become unaffordable for any human being with a little bit of common sense.

[@MiniatureRealms]

I for the creatives working on TOW it is 100% a passion project for them, and that really shines through, and will be one of the reasons I think it will be a success.

[@bobdole8830]

@@MiniatureRealms I hope so too, but the people making the games, aren't the people running the company anymore, so you can never be 100% sure unfortunately.

[@MiniatureRealms]

@bobdole8830 Yep and the gap between them gets bigger all the time I think.

[@raytoroeatscrayons1421]

the biggest thing that's stopping me is the fact that theyre charging modern prices for models that are nearly the same age as i am. 85 dollars for skeletons from 2003 is ridiculous

[@niceboldt7295]

Yes, this is true. But just be able to 3D print them (even the orginal skulps) is possible now. I take all I need from GW: rulebook all I need to play and everything else I need I got from 3rd Partys!💪

[@raytoroeatscrayons1421]

@@niceboldt7295 for real, the second i find good brettonia or vampire counts models, im all in

[@MiniatureRealms]

GW has never been cheap I’m afraid

[@raytoroeatscrayons1421]

@@MiniatureRealms to be honest i was willing to spend money on GW stuff. got plenty of 40k and AOS models, but this latest price hike has gotta be the breaking point for myself and many others. 94$ for a pair of armigers is crazy

[@MiniatureRealms]

Yeah that is extremely expensive

[@julianmhall]

I haven't actually played or painted GW for a long time, so in that respect my opinion is perhaps more objective than somebody for whom GW is their main interest. However, when I started I was amassing a TK army. Then a few years later (series 7 I think?) GW took the IMHO monumentally stupid decision to drop the Fantasy game, discontinue some armies - including the TKs which really annoyed me - and dumb down the rules of the remainder. I think that was a half-hearted attempt to gain younger customers by making the rules easier and getting rid of some armies they saw as more 'adult' themed. However, in doing that they offended / disenchanted their traditional customers who left - some of whom haven't come back and perhaps never will. I said above 'half-hearted'. That's because GW in their infinite idiocy dumbed down the rules to get younger customers but did /not/ do anything to reduce prices and make them pocket-money friendly. The result was the older fans felt alienated some of whom left, and potential younger fans - those at all interested in the real world and not busy playing games on their phones, consoles, and computers - couldn't afford their prices. As a result sales and profits probably dipped. Having - GW thought - created enough manufacturing capacity by ditching some armies they then introduced new ranges - I commented on that in your last video Stuart so I won't bore you by going over it again :) Belatedly now they've realised that dumping Fantasy was stupid and have backtracked, introducing TOW. It remains to be seen if that's too little too late. Regarding the main questions, I think what GW should do is not treat Fantasy and TOW as separate but as part of the same world, so the same rules work for both, and those who have spent hundreds building up a Fantasy army don't find it obsolete. WRT to encouraging younger customers they should never IMHO have ditched Fantasy at all. All they actually needed to do was bring out two sets of Army books.. one for older / more experienced players and one for younger / newbies. From my point of view even though I was in my 30s when I started collecting TKs I'd have probably bought the newbie rule book first and only later graduated to the full rules. If GW had done that they'd have kept the older fans /and/ enticed younger customers into the hobby.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Thank you Julian, some really interesting ideas there. We now know quite a bit more about the why decisions were made at the time, quite a few ex staff (who were the ones making those decisions) have gone on record to explain. The first and major reason was that Fantasy wasn’t selling anywhere near as well as 40K, sales were also falling month on month and year on year, while 40K was going in the other direction. The release strategy at the time often centred around a a 40K release month, then. A fantasy release month, the sales were so wildly different that’s they stated to quite rightly question (from a business point of view), why not just do 40K each month. So they decided that Fantasy needed a radical change, and AOS was it. I don’t think that was the only option open to them, but that’s what they chose and is history now I guess. It was handled terribly though, and they treated existing fantasy players very poorly. In terms of aiming for kids, it’s not quite as simple as that. They have always marketed toward a younger market, we just forget that that as we get older, and we can mistakenly see modernisation of game design and rules as ‘dumbing down’. That aside for a moment, it was an executive/board directive for AOS to contain 4 pages of rules and no points because they believed at the time it was miniatures that sold games, and ‘most people didn’t actually play’, they just painted as collected. This has all been expressed through various interviews and books over recent year (basically I’m not making an educated guess here). Back to the rules simplicity thing. Every single edition of Warhammer Fantasy and 40K has arguably been streamlined, some more than others. Much of this is just modernisation of game design, and you see the same thing across the whole industry, including historical games. It follows a market desire for games that are played over a shorter period, on smaller tables. It’s a sign of a general change over time as much as it is a deliberate marketing towards kids, as they’ve always done that anyway. A final point on the ‘rules aimed at kids’ narrative, and this is truly a general observation and not directed at you. I think the whole argument is reductive, game design is far more complicated than that. In fact complication in a set of rules is often seen as ‘badge of honour’ by some gamers, and used a way to knock players of other games. Very often the core mechanics of an older style of game like Warhammer Fantasy can be very crunchy and complex, and while a more basic mechanic like those found in modern 40K and AOS is often easier to learn, the complexity is a very much added later, with special rules, interactions, and larger numbers of factions and a moving meta. Essentially they’re different, and as gamers we need to be better, or at least more conscious of the labels we give to things. I like your ideas though, I’m not sure if it would have worked out from a marketing point of view. But I’d have loved to see them modernise Fantasy at the time, and some kind of smaller (almost skirmish) version that worked on a simplified set of rules could have been another option. Though I feel they were also set on building an IP that was a strong at 40K, and generic fantasy didn’t allow that.

[@julianmhall]

@@MiniatureRealms Many thanks for reply Stuart. Your closing comment about skirmishes reminded me that IIRC GW /did/ have (I don't recall the name) war bands / skirmish sets. Perhaps they could / should have done more of those. It puts me in mind of some sports such as snooker, formula 1, and cricket. Some people are not interested enough to devote the time required for a full match / race, but all three have introduced short forms that make the sports more accessible. I've never been interested in cricket for example, not wanting to devote five /days/ to a single match. However I've recently got much more into the T20 game since that's over in a few hours.

[@MiniatureRealms]

@julianmhall How very dare you not like Test Cricket, best sport on the planet 😂. Joking aside I think that’s a great perspective on it.

[@julianmhall]

@@MiniatureRealms I once saw cricket described by a comedian as a sport you could watch for four and a half days and somebody ask 'Who's winning?' to get the answer 'It's too early to tell' *LOL* I also heard not long ago that /allegedly/ songs were to have a length of roughly 40 seconds as that's the attention span of the Tik Tok generation. Good luck getting them to even listen to the intro of November Rain or Bohemian Rhapsody *lol* I'm pretty sure that's apocryphal, but it is another argument for short forms of game systems like WH.

[@bobdole8830]

GW was clever enough to release the bestest, meanest, and most greenest faction early, so da best players already got most of what they wanted! ;) No, but seriously, I have been feeling like a kid trapped in a candy store over night these last few months. I started playing fantasy when I was a kid and could only afford a box of plastic every other month and most metal minis were out of reach and when I was older the secondary market prices were ridiculous, so I couldn't justify wasting that much money for a bit of plastic or pewter . But now the secondary market is filled with minis people try to flip in panic, because they are afraid GW might reprint them, and most of the reprinted minis are even SOMEWHAT reasonably priced, for GW standards. With the 10-30% discount you can get, you often don't pay more now than 20 years ago for some kits, adjusted for inflation of course. I just bought a new doomdiver catapult for 30€ and I'm loving it!

[@MiniatureRealms]

Yes, this so much. It’s never a cheap hobby, but it’s really not to expensive to get started right now at all.

[@bobdole8830]

@@MiniatureRealms Absolutely, I was expecting WAY worse from GW ;) I mean some kits are far out there, like the bonecrusher giant and the giant river troll hag, but they really aren't must have minis, and only make sense in very specific armies, so they really are optional purchases for the people loving the minis.

[@totalburnout5424]

Significantly better rating than I expected. They seem to have done it right. The cost of the rules is a bit too high for me. 😐

[@MiniatureRealms]

I must admit I’m so used to GW prices now the rule books prices didn’t cross my mind.

[@scatterthewinds3126]

I prefer 9th age still but it is good tow is doing well.

[@MiniatureRealms]

I never tried 9th age, but have heard mostly good things about

[@GalianMode]

How sure are we that Stuart is not Ben "Bedgar" Edgar? It's uncanny.

[@MiniatureRealms]

😂 I’m not even sure who that is

[@Morkhard]

If the miniatures of my 2 most loved armies are reworked ( Dark elves / Vampire) I may come back to old world. Else, no thanks. Not at that price

[@MiniatureRealms]

That’s fair enough

[@woutervrs]

To be honest in my club only 4 guy's play it, and they played fantasy battles before. All the rest play's Age of Sigmar and don't have the nostalgia rush to buy new models and learn the rules. Especially since most AoS players are more on the hobby side and the Old World has a lot ugly old mini's. If they made Old World compatible with AoS mini's and had temporary round to square conversion bases it would have done a lot better.

[@MiniatureRealms]

It might have, but I think the target market isn’t AOS players, it’s returning gamers. I’d definitely expect to see more 40K & AOS played at clubs if I’m honest. I’m not saying they couldn’t have attracted more players by making AOS compatible, but I don’t think that would have attracted the actual target market, and they wouldn’t want to place the game too much in the same market space as AOS.

[@MiniatureRealms]

AOS has been incredibly successful and has a huge following, I get the impression it is fun and a pretty good game. I don’t know enough about it myself, but I guess it depends on what sort of wargames you like.

[@AM-uw3gp]

TOW and AOS are each suited to different types of players and demographics, hopefully they keep both going, fix their production issues and everyone is happy

[@Knoffles]

You missed out that, said with a bit of a cynical hat on, that the announcement of the old world returning, was done within days of the launch of Kings of War new edition, a game that actively looked to recruit all the fantasy players disillusioned with GW with army rosters that were very close to the original GW range…

[@MiniatureRealms]

I don’t think that was the plan, but it’s possible

[@miketogwell1000]

The way GW are handling this, They might miss the boat And find a lot of the player base end up with proxy and 3D printer armies -especially for.all the old fantasy races they have barely even mentioned yet

[@MiniatureRealms]

Yeah it’s one of the dangers for sure

[@WreckItRolfe]

I didn't even know the Old World was a thing until around a month ago. Been waiting for more news on the Dwarfs since...

[@MiniatureRealms]

I can’t think it will be too long now, couple of weeks I’d guess

[@jolamber]

Who's gonna be next after dwarfs??

[@MiniatureRealms]

🤔 I’m not sure, my guess would be something with. Chaos flavour, either Beasts or WoC.

[@Minglesmoot]

6 months on... I'm still painting my bretonnian starter box (I'm slow ok)

[@MiniatureRealms]

Both my TK & Brets have loads left to do, my Dwarfs were the 4th army I’ve started and 1st I’ve finished 😂

[@Waaagghhh]

Liked, Subbed, and a comment added to appease the KZbin Algorithm Gods!

[@MiniatureRealms]

Thank you 😊

[@rupertjones5197]

I’m only really interested in the old world and the fantasy lore, minis etc as I’ve fallen out of love with 40k and never liked AO. I’ve been building up an empire army from bought 3d prints and will 100% be splashing the cash when GW drop models again. Until then I won’t be buying any other armies just at the moment. Keep up the good work dude and keep the fantasy coming! And when it comes to legacy I think they’ll be returning maybe next year or after we’ve got all the main factions done and dusted. If you’re he hype and popularity is kept up then GW will keep producing and paying an interest in it. They said themselves they couldn’t believe how popular it’s been

[@MiniatureRealms]

I think the legacy armies have a good chance in a second edition, much of the barrier is the model ranges being integral to a current AOS faction, once more are updated in AoS I think it will free those ranges up.

[@rupertjones5197]

@@MiniatureRealms exactly, I’m hoping we’ll be getting new novels etc too. If they progress the lore to the Great War with chaos we’ll be Deamons etc. gives them to scope to expand abit more on the lore of the old world

[@MiniatureRealms]

I’d love more novels, I’m hoping we get another surprise in the future in that regard, I’m not feeling hopeful though.

[@GilthosDrakoniss]

👍👍

[@MiniatureRealms]

🙂

[@tanewoodley9806]

Just let me buy the core rulebooks. I still can't get a hardcopy Forces of Fantasy book... Hard to play without basic Army list.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Yeah that’s no good at all, they’re all in stock in the UK, but I know that’s not the story worldwide.

[@tanewoodley9806]

@MiniatureRealms A good video, thanks for posting, interesting to get more perspectives on The Old World, looking forward to playing.

[@kdhlkjhdlk]

It has been fantastic. No updates like 40k that mean you need to relearn the rules (if you can be bothered) or need to buy new models or shelve others after only having a game or two. It is MUCH BETTER like this!

[@MiniatureRealms]

I like the slower release schedule, the game is in a good place aside from there only being 3 factions available to buy. That is my only concern for the game.

[@JulienBourjault]

Very accurate, i would even say this is the best core rules of Warhammer they’ve done so far!! Was not expected such a good game

[@MiniatureRealms]

Thank you, and I completely agree, I think many people were genuinely surprised at how good a job they did with the rules.

[@WithHotLeadandColdSteel]

I was pretty much off board when it got released

[@MiniatureRealms]

It won’t be for everyone, nothing wrong with that.

[@toi_techno]

One competent person, with access to the lore writers, who knows the Old World and it's rules and lore really well could produce enough weekly content to keep fans and players happy This would be an irrelevant cost to a large company GW going quiet without any explanation keeps causing upset and frustration It's strange way of doing things

[@MiniatureRealms]

Yes very very odd

[@sjhhej]

Genuine questions: Why pay GW's insane modern prices for 20 year old low-grade models for TOW, when better alternative models exist? Why play these outdated TOW rules when better modern rules exist?

[@MiniatureRealms]

Genuine question. What makes you think that everyone else has the same opinions on the models and rules as you?

[@sjhhej]

@@MiniatureRealms Nothing. I know people have different opinions, that's why I asked the questions.

[@MiniatureRealms]

You’ve just answered your own questions then haven’t you

[@sjhhej]

@@MiniatureRealms No

[@adron1261]

Positivity is keys, one of the things I've seen is "The Old World positivity movement" basically boils down to people that recognise its not perfect but are just thrilled is back so happily roll with joking about release schedule and the game being dead. Overall we all know the game has launched well and most of us have enough experience with GW to know things like the Legacy factions is bad wording and not wanting to commit to the future we know is planned for the next four or five years because thats how far ahead they work.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Yes 💯

[@AM-uw3gp]

I’m pleasantly surprised at the communities overall positivity with TOW, it’s so easy to be negative with all the leftover emotions from the end times but everyone seems to be trying really hard to get above that, perhaps it is the older demographic investing back into this game who have tried to set the tone from day one and have the maturity to recognise and preempt those negative thoughts. I think it’s made me think twice about how I comment on this game and other games I don’t like because it impacts on the people who do like them.

[@MiniatureRealms]

It’s improved so much since release as well, I’m surprised as well. Still a bit too much AOS bashing for my tastes (I don’t play it, but find it embarrassing how many people think is normal to get tribal over toy soldiers).

[@AM-uw3gp]

@@MiniatureRealms yeah I know I’ve also seen some TOW bashing by AOS players too, I’m not interested in AOS but trying to be respectful about my comments, like you say they are all just toy soldiers

[@cjsiskcool]

still rather play the 9 age witch never lost support

[@MiniatureRealms]

Fair enough

[@drunkenork5373]

I don't see the problem, invest in a 3D printer and all of the factions are at your fingertips. We have all of the codexes they are ever going to release.

[@MiniatureRealms]

I have one and use it, for many that is definitely the answer for sure.

[@kevoreilly6557]

The D on release schedule is like complains about the weather in the UK I simply happy that it looks like rules support will be robust

[@MiniatureRealms]

😂 Yeah it’s just a fun thumbnail, but I completely agree about the rules, whatever happens I’ll be playing now for years on those rules.

[@brandonprouty6184]

Support 10th age

[@MiniatureRealms]

There’s a 10th Age?

[@DukeDanseMacambre]

I waited a decade for them to undo their mistake but until they sort all the factions I can wait, we are patient and have 3rd party if we must. Also I’m not a huge fan the the empires German ascetic has become Italian… I never considered Sigmar as what took fantasy away, gw’s neglect of the system focusing more and more on cash cows with more frequent releases did that. I blame Sigmar for being a tin of spam in equivalent to the steak that fantasy was, that and the weekly changing lore and crapping on the lore of the past with people who obviously are incompetent writers or writers that were incompetent in addition to not knowing the old lore. If things change constantly at a whim what’s the point of investing time money or effort to learn any of it?

[@MiniatureRealms]

I can definitely understand the feeling, and waiting is maybe sensible. A lot of people love AOS, and while it’s not captured me yet, I try not to judge it against Fantasy, they’re very different animals.

[@jorgliebmann5308]

Easy said: no one needs hundred of pages with bad written rules, Warscrolls with dozens of rules and books over books (cmon GW…its the 21. century. No one needs Books if you can have pdf datas). No one needs TOW when you can play much better games like asoiaf. Ps: I played almost 20 years WHB.

[@MiniatureRealms]

I think like many things in life it’s a matter of personal taste, all different styles of rules can have their place.

[@guyincognito959]

The heritage of WHAP, gw is just too daft to understand their own product.

[@MiniatureRealms]

They certainly seem to make some silly mistakes

[@ClintOrris]

As a new player, it makes no sense for me to see the Old World as viable. GW doesn't seem to care about it and will likely pull the plug as soon as possible leaving me holding an empty bag

[@MiniatureRealms]

It’s definitely a complicated way that they do things, much of that is how SDS is slowed to work working the wider GW. They get to make cool things, but they don’t see the support the main games get.

[@cuddlemuffin44]

This guy’s voice sounds like a spent cigar being aggressively put out on sand paper.

[@MiniatureRealms]

Nice