Jeff Deist on Why Socialism Persists

[@thundaga4005]

It's really simple. Most people don't think about things logically. It's much easier to think on a purely emotional level. As Mises himself said, "The idea of socialism is a wonderful idea." He's right. It sounds great. Most people, on first glance, would find it very attractive. It describes a world that's free of all the problems we have. That's why it's persistent as an idea in spite of all the evidence of its failure. So that's one of the simplest explanations in my opinion. This is reinforced through propaganda in schools and universities, as well as in the media.

[@erwinnijs1]

I have spoken with a lot of people calling themselves socialists and communists and it is indeed impossible to convince them of anything else through logical argumentation. But I don't think it is as simple as that. If you ask them why they believe collectivism is the best way to organize society, many have a hard time expressing their ideas with good arguments except for "because of human nature"". This has led me to believe that collectivism is genuinely a part of human nature. I believe it is a part of the human instinct and a remnant trait that was essential for the survival of our species for many ten or maybe hundred thousands of years, back when we lived in tribes as hunter/gatherers. In a roaming tribe the concept of private property is almost nonexistent. Some go hunting, others go foraging and some look after the infants. Everything nature provided had to be shared within the group. The collective was more important for the survival of the genes than the individual. This all changed when we became farmers/traders and the concept of private property suddenly became essential for our survival. We began to live in smaller groups consisting of only family members, wherein every individual family member is important for the survival of the genes, rather than the larger collective. So individualism became the dominant trait. In evolutionary terms this happend only fairly recently, hence the prevalence of both survival strategies in human nature and I don't think this is going to change anytime soon. I think we better accept that some people are inherently collectivists and others inherently individualists and organize society accordingly.

[@erwinnijs1]

I believe this also explains many other seemingly illogical things, like why collectivists strongly believe in equality yet usually have no problem with a strong leader or a hierarchical structure to enforce it. This is actually very similar to how pack animals organize, with an alpha male or alpha couple at the top of a hierarchical structure. Many individualists don't seem to have a problem with this kind societal structure either btw. Same with the seemingly illogical idea that we have to organize society into territories and societal structures with a monopoly on power within them. Even a lot of libertarians, like minarchists for example, can't explain that with a logical argument. The best answer I got was again: "because of human nature". And I believe this to be the correct answer. Unlike herd animals who move on once a food source is depleted, pack and troop animals roam in a much smaller area and defend that area as their territory against other groups.

[@erwinnijs1]

@Chance Storey Hi, I read your other comment and there is definitely truth in it. The people you describe surely exist, but it doesn't explain everything. Not all socialists are privileged (white) kids. Look at all the socialist African countries for instance. The reasons why kids and young adults tend to be more socialist than their parents, or adults in general, are several IMO. One is that they get brainwashed in school. I had to endure that myself. Another reason is that kids can't survive on their own and need a family to do so, which is collectivist or socialist in nature. This is what I mean with: the family unit has replaced the tribe. You probably know the adage: If you're not a socialist when you're young, you have no heart. If you are one when you're old, you have no brain. Although incorrect, It refers to that I believe. A better statement would be: If you're not a socialist when you're young, you have no survival instinct or are a hypocrite. But that wouldn't make a good proverb. Another reason, and the one that touches on your comment, is indeed all the feelings and behaviors that go along with the collectivist mindset. In order to operate in a group like a tribe you need certain people skills. The ability to feel guilt is definitely one of them. Compassion and the ability to want to share is another. But also the ability to virtue signal and hide your true feelings in order to conform to the group. This is what we see allot with these so called SJW. Not only when it comes to wealth but when it come to things like racism and sexism too. A Large part is projection and all of it group tactics. They want everyone to conform to their group ideology and will try to shame you, ostracize you or even attack you, when you refuse. That's why socialist never want to pay for it themselves. Otherwise they would just donate to charity, like most individualists do. They want everyone else to pay for it too, especially those who are wealthier than them; "the rich".

[@erwinnijs1]

@Chance Storey Same with communist BTW. Most communist don't want to live in a commune. They want everyone to conform to their ideology. That's the crux of collectivism: conformity to the collective. It seems to be a very strong instinct in collectivists and the reason why they are unable to comprehend why their tactics don't work on individualists. It's probably essential for the survival of a tribe, or the cohesion within larger groups. A similar thing can be seen in the military, where blind obedience is paramount too and drilled in from the start. That's why the NPC meme was so powerful. It conveyed a, for them, painful truth.

[@michaz.3075]

--- THE FIVE QUESTIONS ---- by Larken Rose 1) Is there any means by which any number of individuals can delegate to someone else the moral right to do something which none of the individuals have the moral right to do themselves? 2) Do those who wield political power (presidents, legislators, etc.) have the moral right to do things which other people do not have the moral right to do? If so, from whom and how did they acquire such a right? 3) Is there any process (e.g., constitutions, elections, legislation) by which human beings can transform an immoral act into a moral act (without changing the act itself)? 4) When law-makers and law-enforcers use coercion and force in the name of law and government, do they bear the same responsibility for their actions that anyone else would who did the same thing on his own? 5) When there is a conflict between an individual's own moral conscience, and the commands of a political authority, is the individual morally obligated to do what he personally views as wrong in order to "obey the law"?

[@kmg501]

I like the name change. Human Action is a fundamental key.

[@jeffgreene5956]

So glad you're going to a longer format.

[@TheDemonnat]

I love this new direction for the show.

[@grraadd]

"open to things like property" - oh boy, they are VERY open to property - as long as it's other people's...

[@tiagombianchi]

What a amazing point of view. As a Non Native English speaker it was good to practice my listening at the same time learning more about Libertarianism. I'm actually a Brazillian and I can say: Yeah people love free stuff, and let the state handle many problems, which never happened. That's one of the main things that destroy Brazil's Economy. For almost 16 years we lived on kinda "socialist" government. To have an idea, The guys give some money to Venezuela, Cuba, Nigeria and other dictatorships through a Social Development National Bank (BNDS). They give cover to an International italian Assassin Cesare Batistti. at the same time Rose up taxes to pay for social programs like Bolsa Familia, which give to the poor people some money to buy food, when they dicided to extand this program to help poor people to have a own house, they simply created a bubble which don't got long to blow up... and know is not hard to find rent or selling houses with no buyers... The New President is kinda like Trump. He already did some good things (Still the permt to have a gun is kinda a awful joke, cause we now alloed to have 4 pistols for adress, and to take the permit is needed to pay R$ 4.000,00 (U$ 1065,00 today - 19/01/2019) and not speaking about some corruption squemes that his son was practicing and was discovered in december. Socialism destroied my country and keeping doing it....

[@d4n4nable]

Brazil has a very promising, younfmg libertarian remnant. Keep the fire alive, you need to be ready when the old systems fail, and not let the commies seize power!

[@tiagombianchi]

@@d4n4nable Sorry about one week delay. The libertarian community is kinda big here. although the culture is what gets thing a pretty harder. You see We are taught to be dependable from a government since in elementary school. Kids are taught to be employees not employers (this is one thing which makes me wanna move out to US, but... it's another story). I always say to Libertarians I know: Dude, stop fighiting against, grab a pop corn and watch the State fall off from its on Weight. What we can still do till then is just keep studing, keep debating and showing the libertarian wais, many people founds themselves libertarian and didnt know that

[@J.Panxer]

If Democracy means anything, it means that the public knows what it wants, and deserves to get it...good and hard. -Paraphrased from Mencken

[@J.Panxer]

@Nebojsa Knezevic It always is that way. Sheep need a shepherd, and goats play over the mountain.

[@J.Panxer]

And in all socialist economies...learn about black markets. Get your tor and vpn going. I don't think quantum computing will be an issue when they sink this ship.

[@LiamAnthonyofficial]

Have longer more in-depth podcasts for those who want to listen and edit short highlight vids from each podcast for those who prefer shorter clips. This will further the reach of the podcast.

[@thundaga4005]

Also, can't wait for the rebranded podcast.

[@julien8629]

New listener here. Love the long format, keep it up!

[@brianjones4245]

Can you please show the video and not just a still image when posting to KZbin??

[@pirate0jimmy]

It's an audio-only podcast.

[@moriendus]

Yeah, longer is better. I hate it when the video/audio ends without getting into the nitty-gritty.

[@Tenebrousable]

hells yeah, longer, bigger,better,more Jeff Deist, Everybody wins.

[@1101-j8w]

The stage of the march through institutions has been completed therefore you need to destroy these institutions to get different results. As you quite rightly emphasised - the left extecute, the right just talk.

[@healthhavencom]

Jeff is the man.

[@brianjones4245]

GREAT SHOW BRO!

[@kendreamer6376]

I think there is a way to get socialist people to embrace anarchy and capitalism. In a completely pure voluntary society respect for private property and enforcement of contracts is a must. Now when it come to properrt it can be owned by an individual or there can be shared ownership. Shared ownership is basically collectivism ie socialism. So they can still get there collective ownership and do whatever they want.

[@konberner170]

"Why are you incensed, and why is your face fallen? For whether you offer well, or whether you do not, at the tent flap sin crouches and for you is its longing, but you will rule over it."

[@arrrseeingeye]

Genisis 4:6-7 God speaks warning to an angry and jealous Cain before he kills his brother.

[@konberner170]

@@arrrseeingeye Indeed... and the answer to Jeff's question is, I think, jealousy and anger.

[@johnblackburn7752]

hi Mr Deist. Im curious who you think is the best at estimating an underground economy?

[@moriendus]

Pinochet/McCarthy 2020!

[@immaculatesquid]

at this point. helicopter rides sound good

[@moriendus]

@@immaculatesquid Hell yes.

[@arrrseeingeye]

PPP. A theory. (parental professor provider) - The sweet sounding and soft appeal of socialism and fictional birds of similar feathers, held particularly by those among the great majority of graduates of higher education, is due in part to the apparent inclination to unwavering faith in the belief system of their team or seccondary extended family, regardless of it's immorality. The theory is that a professor, is to some degree an extension of the parents, and having become such, easily conjurs up in the student an inescapable belief in his instruction. The teaching in this case, that the current socialistic concepts being tought are more attainable and desireable than those of similar extinct species. (Species that have historicly failed) These concepts are tought as being necessary for the students very own survival [albeit untrue] and are whole heartedly swallowed hook line and sinker. Concepts held only untill the inevitable and frustrating day the last candle burns out. A day that comes if they conclude theft is wrong and that their big soft song bird is a satanic made [stolen] gift giving fictional parrot called Santa. (The State)

[@richardzellers]

If we lose interest after approximately 20 mins, it's not our fault. Joe Rogan almost daily podcasts for THREE HOURS.

[@Vitance]

I hope this doesn't mean Jeff is going to fire his cold! He's had that cold since like 2006...!

[@ssm59]

Jeff, the late 70’s did not hold the obvious promise you indicate. It was a bleak employment environment as stagflation took hold. In comparative terms education was expensive and financial aid carried far higher interest rates compared to now. I appreciate the problems that millennials face but the past was not so rosy when we were looking into it either. It only seems like jobs were guaranteed and retirements secure looking back. Just as the tech revolution propelled the boomers out of the doldrums of that time, so too will another revolution pull this generation along. We just do not know what that will be yet.

[@2vnews902]

Culprit: government in education and tuition system.

[@2vnews902]

@Hans No, you suck.

[@senselessnothing]

Because failures exist

[@christstys]

We ought to stop placing the word "Austrian" in front of "Economics" or "Economist". It's a word that only ever serves to cause the center to dismiss the ideas as "fringe" out of hand.