Mix Minus Explained - ATEM Mini Extreme Setup for Remote Guests & Hybrid Livestreams

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If you're trying to build out a hybrid live streaming setup with your ATEM Mini Extreme, in this video I'll explain how we use a second Zoom meeting to bring in virtual presenters and remote guests to speak while sending a mix minus audio return feed to that virtual guest.
While we use the Blackmagic Web Presenter (original/discontinued model) anyone could easily do the same thing with a video and audio capture device. An easy method for this would be an Elgato Camlink and a Focusrite Scarlett. While it would require two devices, one for audio and one for video, you may find other methods such as using an ATEM Mini to be suitable to cover both a video and audio feed. Remember the key is the ability to use a video feed and inject an alternate audio feed.
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[@manifestpro88]

This was extremely helpful and perfectly explained! Thank you for making it easy to understand!

[@poeticstudios9448]

I tried this setup on Tuesday and everything worked perfectly.

[@ideaplusagency]

Love this setup (and all of the b roll😊)! These are the types of events I have to do a lot ... livestream, in person guests, hybrid guests, audience that needs to hear everything.

[@MrB5828]

Excellent description. Great job. Thank you.

[@zephanmoses]

Thanks for watching!

[@EventStreamTeam]

Nice setup!

[@bixxkaian9353]

Thank you! 🎉 perfectly spelled out!

[@zephanmoses]

Thanks for watching

[@lucaskaufman592]

Great setup. I personally do all the same streaming stuff but keep audio and video separate. Mixer + audio interface to stream computer, audio to zoom on separate mix output. Everything in main/room post fader so it’s controlling the mix the same way ;)

[@b2dgmedia]

Is your audio connected to an by? If so, could you send a diagram?

If you have free second USB on extreme you could go to PC with main program ( or from Hyperdeck) and for audio direct from audio mixer to mic in on PC...

[@lucongena4432]

Thanks for the helpful session, what are the minimum requirements on the audio mixer to have both, the main audio for the room, and the mix-minus for the audio feedback for the remote guest?

[@zephanmoses]

You just need a mixer that has aux outputs and the ability to do mix minus routing. Many common podcast mixers in the $400-500 range can do this.

[@MrShaneo30]

Hi we do it a little simpler what we do is to plug the computer to the atem via type c cable and the on the audio mixer we send the out the atem by the group out and we did was on the Chanel for the computer audio on the in-house mixer we just take out the group audio button on the mixer and the audio from the computer won't go back in to zoom but everything else

[@RylandRussell]

Photojoseph actually says that you don’t need mix minus when using zoom as it’s cancellation is that good. 🤷🏼‍♂️ might as well if you can send a separate bus mix though.

[@zephanmoses]

Except you'd run into a few issues like not being able to record the full livestream in the ATEM directly to a hard drive since the audio from the Zoom guest speaker would have to be routed back into the ATEM (which would further cause an echo in the main Zoom livestream). So when you're running a hybrid type situation that wouldn't work.

[@FAMEAcademyNY]

Im jealous of your rack set up...

[@GuzmanGonzalez]

This was really helpful! I'm doing a livestream in a couple of weeks and we had to rule out the idea of someone on zoom talking during the event. This really helped me realize how it should be done! Do you have any recommendation of which BM product to get and in which order to slowly build a rig like the one you just showed? It would be really interesting to see! Thanks

[@zephanmoses]

The ATEM Mini Extreme is probably the easiest way to start. I think that if you started with the cheaper ATEM Mini Pro you'll find that you have some limitations pretty quickly. Especially if you're trying to go for a setup like this. From there, you'll probably want a second computer if you're going to bring in virtual callers and you'll need a way to feed mix minus audio plus a video feed back to them. It could be as simple as a Web Presenter but seeing as the newer models don't function the same way, you'll probably want an alternative like the Focusrite Scarlett and Camlink that I linked to in the description below the video.

[@GuzmanGonzalez]

@@zephanmoses Wow that was quick! Thanks for your recommendations. I will look into upgrading from my ATEM Mini Pro ISO probabbly to the Extreme one, and then look into the alternative for the Web Presenter. I almost bought it but seeing that it doesn't work as I expected, then I'll do some research on the scarlett+camlink option. Thanks so much!

[@zephanmoses]

@@GuzmanGonzalez You could keep your current ATEM and use it the same way I was using the web presenter. After all it has a video input, separate audio input and a usb output. That's really all you need.

[@GuzmanGonzalez]

@@zephanmoses You're right! Thanks so much for the help!

[@makefilmproduktion1917]

@@zephanmoses good advice! But you could also feed the mix minus audio directly into the laptop and for video capture just use an elgato camlink?

[@jacvanderspuy5618]

Great explanation. Maybe a silly question but Zoom removes the echo automatically? Why bother with mix minus?.

[@zephanmoses]

I’d have to test it but we’ve had nothing but good experiences with mix minus so I’d rather not risk it.

[@wilsonbatuyong1147]

this is great setup. Just like to know if we can replace the webpresenter by a capture card and audio mixer direct to the laptop zoom?

[@zephanmoses]

Yep you could do the same thing with that setup.

[@lucaskaufman592]

That’s how I do it personally. Web presenters work great too. I think he is working more with embedded audio. Which is kindof a hassle in my opinion but it can make the run of show easier in some cases.

[@followyourheart4281]

Hi Zephan🙂, is there any latency in the Audio out put to the web presenter and how it can be Managged if yes,,?

[@zephanmoses]

There is not. But it could be managed from the audio mixer if you have a mixer that can add delay.

[@petersinclair7824]

sorry i feel dumb for just posting that previous question when the answer from up the list a bit… about splitting the output feed with the decimator… leaning a lot

[@petersinclair7824]

hi a question more than a comment… the video signal main program out from the streaming atem extreme… why go thru the decimator to the web presenter… why not hdmi out of extreme into hdmi imput of the web presenter… is there some signal advantage to going to decimator then out to sdi? thank peter… i’m just learning so much, you are a great explainer… and my og web presenter has just arrived…

[@zephanmoses]

The decimator has multiple SDI outputs so I can split the signal to my backup recording on my hyperdeck and on my shogun as well. It just acts as a splitter.

[@petersinclair7824]

thanks… i’ve just ordered one…$576 nz dollars being feed by new rodecaster pro 2

[@fed02]

Just want to share my setup. 1. I use 1 of the HDMI out for MV and the other HDMI 2 for projector screens. This way I could control what is being shown on the projectors. 2. From the camera, i split the HDMI out. 1 for the main Atem connected to the main Zoom laptop A and the other to zoom laptop B (dedicated for Zoom Virtual presenters.) 3. As for audio, i have a Zoom L8 Livetrak, which i use to control the mix-minus. ie what to send to the venue's mixer/speakers and which audio to send to the respective laptops. I would definitely explore your method if i could get hold of a discontinued web presenter. Thank you and keep making these videos. Liked and Subscribed!!

[@zephanmoses]

Thanks for watching! The only reason I don’t use the second hdmi out for the screens is because I’m a fan of having backups so I don’t want to completely rely on the Samsung t5 as my only source of recording. So I use the Atomos Shogun. The shogun also acts as a program monitor for my audio person or for my team member that’s managing the zoom computer and projector.

[@fed02]

@@zephanmoses Always a pleasure to learn from the pros... thanks for sharing.

[@zephanmoses]

@@fed02 Thanks for tuning in

[@markjestonycatolos2789]

@fed02 @zhepanmoses hello both masters 😊, Can you please help me,do you have any simple setup to share, for example i only have atem mini pro , 2 camera, 1 stage screen, and i need to use OBS as virtual to do Zoom meeting. How can i set it up and how to do this in our hybrid meeting? -client on online zoom is talking , i want to show it to the conference room stage screen. -client on conference room is talking i want to show it to the online zoom. -client on conference room is showing power point in stage screen, and i want it to show in online zoom. For audio im fine already.

[@fed02]

@Mark Jestony Catolos I hope my explaination can help. There are many ways to do your hybrid event. The easiest is to have have all your virtual guests and speakers in 1 Zoom session. Some might prefer to separate the virtual speakers in another zoom session. Your issue seems to be what/how to show on Stage Screen. I assume that your are using Atem Mini Pro which only has 1 HDMI Out. Hence, your only choice is to use the HDMI Out for the Stage Screen. (Use the buttons on the right "Video Out" to control which Source is shown on stage screen) USB C to laptop for Zoom and loop HDMI back to Atem Mini Source 3. Pin vitural speaker on "2nd monitor" on the same laptop. Source 1: Cam 1 Source 2: Cam 2 Source 3: Laptop for Zoom Source 4: Laptop for Power point (create a holding slide when you do not want anything to show on stage screen) This method should still work with OBS, if you need to.

[@av_prod]

Hi Zephan, thanks for sharing these kind of videos. So if I understand correctly, for a hybrid meeting, you create 2 different zoom meeting and not only 1 webinar with panelists?

[@zephanmoses]

Correct. 1 meeting houses the virtual guests and 1 meeting (or webinar) is the actual show going out to the live audience. This is mostly because we're doing a hybrid setup so it's not just people talking in Zoom, it's people talking in the room, people on Zoom and sometimes a mix of the two. In the event that the client wanted us to stream to a different platform, we can certainly do that, and it would only involve one Zoom to bring in the virtual guests.

[@av_prod]

Thanks for the fast reply. I’m currently shooting commercials and corporate videos but moving towards livestreaming since it’s what I prefer. I’ll explore your options!

[@EventStreamTeam]

Quick question, can that seetec video monitor fit in a standard 19 inch rack?

[@zephanmoses]

The 15.6” monitor (on the right) did originally come with the ears to rack mount it I believe. The one I’m using on the left is a 21.5” monitor so it might be too big for a standard 19” mount. Not 100% on that.

[@EventStreamTeam]

@@zephanmoses Thanks!!!

[@gwillacey]

So does the zoom presenter have to be on 2 separate zoom calls on their end. One for everyone to see their presentation and one for them to be able to see the mix minus presentation?

[@zephanmoses]

The zoom presenter is on one zoom meeting. In that meeting they see whatever we want to send as a return feed. Usually it’s the program feed so they can see what is live whether that be their camera or a PowerPoint slide or both. The return audio feed to them is the mix minus. There’s a separate zoom meeting where we are playing out the “show” to the audience to watch. This is like any other livestream. They see and hear the full show.

[@emmanuelfrancis]

Once again, another great video/tutorial, very detailed even for a child to understand. In my set up I use an AvMatrix mixer as well as an Atem Mini Pro and a MBP. I have one question though. Is is totally necessary to have 2 computers for zoom? What if I only have one computer which I use to receive the zoom meeting and split its output, one to the room projector and the other to the AVM switcher for the Fb/YT livestream? Then I send the mix minus w/video to that computer and the main audio with everything to the Livestream. For that I use a video aux out from the AvMatrix mixer with the room video to the zoom computer using the Atem Mini Pro along with the mix minus audio. I don't want to send the zoom computer the same video of themselves which is why I use the aux with the room feed to the zoom computer. Would that work or can you point out the good & bad? Thanks

[@zephanmoses]

We have two computers because we have two Zooms. One zoom is to bring in virtual presenters, the other is for the attendees watching. We use a Zoom meeting for virtual guests but a zoom webinar for the attendees watching the event. You can’t run two instances of Zoom on one computer. This client wanted to stream to zoom due to the audience and ease of use and so they can use the Q&A and live transcript features. The Zoom computer to bring in our virtual speakers has a separate microphone routed to it so we can speak to them over breaks and get them settled in and tech checked. You couldn’t do this with one zoom computer because all attendees watching the livestream would see and hear that happening. By keeping the remote guests in a separate zoom meeting we can choose when to bring them into the livestream and when to hide them, we can talk with them before they go live without viewership ever seeing anything happening in this “green room.”

[@emmanuelfrancis]

@@zephanmoses That makes total sense to have 2 zoom. i will certainly encourage my clients to do that as well, which makes it so much easier to do the job and also to communicate with the presenters. Thanks agin for the response and be well.

[@jeffc4862]

@@zephanmoses This is a tremendous help! I have my first virtual guest in a couple of weeks, and when experimenting with a second computer logged into the same meeting and fed into the ATEM, all I got was video feedback. Out of curiosity, is there any other way?

[@zephanmoses]

@@jeffc4862 we don’t use the same zoom meeting as the livestream audience for the virtual guest. Two meetings - one for the audience watching the stream and one for the virtual presenters.

[@jeffc4862]

@@zephanmoses Thank you!!!

[@gwillacey]

Does your zoom presenter do 2 separate zoom calls on his or her computer in order to get the mix minus mix?

[@zephanmoses]

No, they're only in one call. They hear the entire event minus their own voice because that's what we're feeding back to them. That call just happens to be completely separate from the Zoom that attendees are watching so attendees can see and hear the full show.

[@luckyduck1985]

Very ingenious! Love this. Have you ever thought of using a mixer in rack that has AUX outputs? Like the Behringer X Air XR12 12?

[@zephanmoses]

Our audio mixer has aux outputs. But it’s brought by our audio technician who owns his own gear so he likes using a mixer with faders for live events.

[@luckyduck1985]

@@zephanmoses Thanks for the reply! And the reply across all of your videos! I just found your channel and am loving everything :). One last question. I personally hate using the 3.5mm jack on the ATEM. I live in fear of noise. I have a camera with XLR and usually just use that to get signal to my stream over the HDMI port on the ATEM (and leave that audio feed on). I prefer having the signal coming into the ATEM digitally. Do you prefer the 3.5mm jack?

[@zephanmoses]

@@luckyduck1985 I prefer the 3.5mm jack because all audio is coming from a sound mixer so if you’re taking a feed from a mixer and using a good cable you won’t run into noise issues.

[@luckyduck1985]

@@zephanmoses No, totally. I prefer a feed from a sound mixer as well. I just sometimes run that feed through a XLR on a Camera or through an Ultrastudio, then into the HDMI of the ATEM instead of the 3.5mm jack.

[@zephanmoses]

@@luckyduck1985 The preamps on cameras aren't the same as coming from a mixer so if anything going through a camera could potentially sound worse. It's not a bad idea and obviously there's a ton of ways to do this. No right or wrong if the end product comes out how you want it.

[@emmanuelfrancis]

Hey Zephan, how are you today? Hope all is well. I have another question about the Mix-Minus. I do Hybrid events just like the one you did on this video, and the issue is as such: When the zoom guest is Live and I do send him a different mix that excludes his/her own audio, I ran into an issue when they are interacting with the speaker or audience in the room. Remember that the audio from all the mics including that of the zoom computer is wired to the main mix which is sent to the Livestream computer and the room. So when the zoom guest is speaking and the speaker or audience is responding, the audio from the room is echoed back into the room with a delay because it is coming from the zoom computer's audio which is open in the room from the mixer. How do I get rid of that echo? The way I have been doing it is to mute the zoom computer's audio channel as the room mics are being used, and when the zoom speaker is ready to talk I unmute him/her and then mute the room mics being used. But the interaction between the zoom caller and the room speaker/audience is not fluent because I have to guess when one or the other will begin to speak so that I can mute either or. Please help me resolve that issue. i would appreciate it. Thanks

[@zephanmoses]

We eliminate the echo by having an audio technician that actively mixes the audio. So he muted mics in the room when the zoom guest is speaking and unmutes the mics when someone in the room is talking. It’s important to have someone who really knows how to run audio be your dedicated audio person.

[@emmanuelfrancis]

@@zephanmoses Thanks for the quick reply. But even if you mute the mics in the room as the zoom guest is speaking, you will have to mute the zoom audio to the room as well, as any mics in the room are being used to talk back to the Zoom guest. meaning that they can't have a fluent conversation. There is no other way of having them talk to each other without any muting of the room mics or the zoom audio to the room? Doesn't Zoom have a way of cutting the echo itself? Even with a dedicated audio engineer, it's hard to know exactly when the zoom caller is going to open his/her mouth to talk so that you can unmute the audio and vice verca.

[@zephanmoses]

@@emmanuelfrancis we haven’t had an issue with that. Our talented audio mixer rides the levels on every mic. It’s also important to place your speakers in the room in a place so that they won’t echo through the mics.

[@emmanuelfrancis]

@@zephanmoses Thank you so much for the advice. I will do that from now on with the audio. Thanks again

[@Aaron_Hall_MEVSD]

Another solution for this scenario is to put a Audio Gate on both sources. Just have the Threshold level high enough not to be triggered by the PA echo. If set right, the Gates do the job of your audio tech for you. It can make the audio a little "choppy" but allows for a faster back and forth. This is also a good solution when you find yourself doing a show like this as a "One Tech" show. I don't always get the luxury of having a dedicated sound guy at all my shows, so this works in a pinch. Another tip for this solution is tell your remote presenter to speak confidently (not yell) so you can set their Gate's Threshold a little higher than normal.

[@emmanuelfrancis]

Hi Zephan How are you? I have a question. When you set up a zoom computer only for the presenters, I know it gives you the privilege of communicating with the guest through a mic and also be able to listen to them through a set of headphones. How do you set that up? Do you use the same mixer and use the same aux out that is sending them the mix minus? If so, how do you stop your voice from going into the room or the zoom call for the participants? Please give me some pointers. Thanks in advanced and thanks for all the help you give to this community. Keep up the good work man and continued success.

[@zephanmoses]

Hi Emmanual, we've done this setup numerous times and in many different ways. But the biggest reason why the audio doesn't go into the Zoom livestream is because there are TWO zooms. One Zoom being the livestream and one Zoom being the behind the scenes "green room" that we use to bring in the virtual caller. They're two completely different Zoom meetings.

[@emmanuelfrancis]

@@zephanmoses Thanks for the quick response. But what I am trying to understand is how you communicate with the zoom room since you are already sending audio to that separate computer through a mix minus (aux from the main mixer)? I would like to know how you set up that line of communication between the producer and the presenters in the 2nd computer dedicated to just them.

[@zephanmoses]

@@emmanuelfrancis we use an audio interface such as a Scarlett Solo or Zoom makes them too. The mix minus and the microphone feed into the audio interface and you use the interface to select which audio should feed into the zoom. That way you can mute the mix minus feed and unmute the microphone when you need to talk to them.

[@emmanuelfrancis]

@@zephanmoses Thank you so very much. That clears my confusion right up. Your knowledge and desire to help is so appreciated. Thanks a million. Be well and be blessed.

[@youritguy1]

WOW.. This was very very helpful Zephan. Will need to watch it a few more times before it can sink into my brain. lol Is there another way this can be done without the web presenter? Or would you say that the web presenter is the easiest option?

[@zephanmoses]

Yep there’s another way! See my description below the video where I mentioned an alternative.

[@youritguy1]

@@zephanmoses I saw that after I made the comment. Lol. So which method would be the easiest one ?

[@zephanmoses]

@@youritguy1 it’s a lot harder to find a discontinued device 😉

[@nathandelack1097]

Does the web presenter send 720 or 1080 video out?

[@zephanmoses]

The OG model is 720. These days I’ve been using camlinks as well since they can do full 1080. Then use an audio interface for audio.

[@ariblochpro]

Why did you convert to SDI via the Decimator? You could just send HDMI from the ATEM directly to the Web Presenter, no?

[@zephanmoses]

I was using it as a splitter as well to send the feed both to the web presenter and to my shogun as a backup recording. I could’ve used an hdmi splitter or a decimator. Just needed a splitter and prefer decimator. I also prefer the locking SDI connector - just a little more reliable.

[@ariblochpro]

@@zephanmoses well understood. Thanks!

[@squierplayer]

@@zephanmoses Could have gone from the Program Out on the Web Presenter. It outputs 1080 through the program feed, but only 720 into the computer through the USB cord.

[@zephanmoses]

@@squierplayer In our situation it was only sending a return feed so that the virtual guest could see and hear what was happening in the room. So it wasn’t as crucial to get a 1080 feed. It was more important that we could get a full HD feed of their camera to feed into the room and the live stream.

[@poeticstudios9448]

Hey Zephan how can I reach you to chat about a hybrid work flow?

[@zephanmoses]

Thanks for asking. I do private consulting work. My information can be found on my channel's about page: www.youtube.com/@zephanmoses/about

[@BurninSven1]

In reality you need not even close to all this gear to do this. Even the cheapest Atem Mini has two mini tele inputs on the back so it is possible to hook up any multichannel mixer with unbalanced output even a cheap Behringer mixer. In my case I got two 8 channel soundcards and a Multichannel Behringer mixer hooked up to one of my minis. Cheap SDI to HDMI converters for long distance to my old ATEM TVS ads even more posibillities. The old Intensity Pro capturecards are a goldmine for hooking up and pull and push both audio and video. So with some old and cheap stuff I got a rig that can handle at least 4 computers for software and 10 video channels and pretty much unlimited audio channels.

[@zephanmoses]

This is certainly true. There are always cheaper ways to do things. With that said, because we do this professionally and this client in particular is an Ivy League institution, we need to show up with professional equipment. It also allows us to create a more reliable setup where we can bring more value to the table and charge higher prices. Thanks for tuning in!