Cutting Smash's Roster In Half But I'm Not A Coward

With the Switch 2 on the way and Smash 6 inevitably following behind, there's been a lot of talk about where Super Smash Bros goes from here. Maybe that's why these "halving the roster" videos have become so popular this year, or maybe it's because Smash Ultimate has so many annoying characters on both ends of the tier list, but in any case, it's time to get messy.
Check out PhazoGanon (the maker of the Jigglypuff mod) here: / @phazoganon
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Main channel: / mockrocktv
Twitter: / mrmockrock​
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Music used:
"MockRock Is Here (Relaxed)" - MockRock
"MockRock is Here" - MockRock
"Final Destination" - Super Smash Bros. OST
"Main Menu" - Mario Strikers: Battle League OST
"Fodlan Winds (Inferno)" - Fire Emblem Warriors: Three Hopes OST
All original music, as well as its stems, are available for download to patrons, KZbin members, and Twitch subscribers.
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Thanks for watching!
#SmashUltimate #Nintendo #SuperSmashBros

[@MockRockTalk]

Thanks for watching! I know this one's gonna be controversial because even as I'm writing this, all the early access comments already disagree with each other lol. I'll respond to some of the biggest arguments I see in the comments here: -Rosalina vs. Bowser Jr. was a bit of a toss up, but I think "Bowser and Bowser" is a little redundant if that makes sense, and Rosalina is the only true puppet character left after the cuts (Olimar doesn't really count). She has a VERY clear identity in Smash, whereas Jr.'s has always felt a little muddled. I do admit losing the Koopa Kids alongside him sucks though, there's a good case to be made for him entirely because of how well those work. -Cloud vs. Sora is one that I fully expected to see come up a lot, and look, take your spiky-haired anime boy of choice, I have no skin in the game here. -Raven Beak is realistically not viable compared to Sylux, although a) this video was recorded a few days before the Direct, and b) I still wish he was because he's so much cooler. -"You really cut all the Fire Emblem characters besides Marth" is being treated like something radioactive as if I haven't spent the last decade hearing complaints about how over-represented the series is lol. With the way Fire Emblem mechanics work there's nothing stopping you from adding a rotating hero that covers tons of cool, representative design space, while also keeping Marth both because he performs an important function in Smash and also represents the Fire Emblem legacy. -"You should have cut Jigglypuff." *No.* -"The Miis should have been condensed into a single fighter." This one I get the argument for, but Miis also perform a very important role by allowing a lot of characters into the series who couldn't become full-fledged fighters. I didn't talk about that element in the video too much, but it's a big one that wouldn't work very well if those characters were all forced into the same archetype. -"There's too much Gen 1 in the Pokemon rep." Yeah, probably, but that's kind of the nature of the beast when you have to get really reductionist. Lucario is one of the most iconic Gen 4 Pokemon, yes, but Mewtwo is one of _the_ most iconic Pokemon ever. Swapping them out to "spread the representation out more" just feels disingenuous, to name one of several examples. *Main channel:* kzbin.info *Twitter:* twitter.com/MrMockRock *Patreon:* www.patreon.com/mockrock *Twitch:* www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch *Teespring:* teespring.com/stores/mockrock *TimeBolt affiliate link* (excellent software I use to speed up editing on my videos, use code "MOCKROCK" for a discount): mockrock--timebolt.thrivecart.com/order-page/

[@MinnowTF]

You cut… your favourite smash character of all time… to save… Toon Link??? I bet the Kirby Discord got you in on what they were smoking

[@Team-Eclipse6024]

Considering how much you talk about reworking certain members of the cast. Have you ever considered making a video where you rank how much you want every member of the cast changed (i.e on a tierlist on mockrock talk or something). Just asking since I have considered doing this myself (though not as a video) Big Fan anyway.

[@MockRockTalk]

@@Team-Eclipse6024 Absolutely, this has actually been on my ideas document for a while!

[@DreamAngelYt]

You could've kept 1 MII instead of all 3 instead of cutting Ike and Falco

[@3DOM_]

@@DreamAngelYtdid you read the comment?

[@campthemvp]

MOCKROCK! IT’S A TRAP! SMASH FANS JUST WANT TO GET ANGRY WHEN YOU INEVITABLY CUT A CHARACTER THEY LIKE! MOCKROOOOOOOOCK!

[@mrmediocre848]

Even though it's a thought experiment which likely has zero real world implications...

[@sting1167]

Mock rock cut me off on the interstate! How dare he! Grrrrrrr!

[@ashen_roses]

I'm a Flaming Emblem fan, I'm used to it.

[@FishBoy9364]

Correct. Wth, Mockrock. What did my bois K. Rool and Rizzley do to you.

[@thewanderingchelmet]

I'm glad Olimar and Shulk stay, but that min min cut was brutal, any arms fans are super sad rn

[@PhazoGanon]

So hey, I'm the one who made that Jigglypuff rework, and not only did I just change Jigglypuff, I changed a lot more characters to generally be more faithful to their original incarnations

[@marcotanooky9651]

Youare awesome

[@The_Trident_Master]

Did you base her design off of delthezin’s video?

[@PhazoGanon]

@@The_Trident_Master No, it was made well before then

[@The_Trident_Master]

@@PhazoGanon Interesting. His video had several similar ideas

[@SunnySixStreet]

Doing the lord’s work😌✨

[@justinn8541]

Here is a compromise for ""Ganondorf" should stay" people. We first cut "Ganondorf", then we introduce actual Ganondorf

[@bageltime8983]

"I take away your candy,then tomorrow I give you the same candy but better" Sounds good to me 👍

[@justinn8541]

@@bageltime8983 That's false. It's more like replacing a rip-off of a different candy, and give you the candy you actually want.

[@oneovertwo1186]

The Pig form Ganon character idea, right?

[@brycebitetti1402]

​@oneovertwo1186 Not likely. Ganondorf has been the main threat in a good chunk of 3D Zelda titles, which have proven themselves to be the more popular branch of the series. Tears of the Kingdom, Twilight Princess, and Ocarina of Time alone account for three of the four best-selling games in the series, and he's the main villain in all three.

[@gavinrak2692]

​@@oneovertwo1186pig gannon just doesnt really have enough to make a good moveset imo. Also gannondorf is a much cooler pick imo (and relevant)

[@jmurray1110]

Mii fighters were made mainstays when Nintendo learned they could sell costumes

[@vocalcalibration8033]

I'd buy more costumes for actual characters.

[@jmurray1110]

But they don’t only miis

[@MrGameguyC]

Yee. Though you don't need to keep all 3 of them to do so :d

[@FlatlandsSurvivor]

The only "cut" there I could see is merging the Miis, but expanding the customization of that character to still act as sword, gun, or brawler.

[@AWESOMEvance]

I'd say cut them and make costumes for regular characters, but then you'd have less psuedo representation. I didn't think about this angle.

[@Glory2Snowstar]

"Cutting Piranha Plant without being a coward" You shall die braver than most.

[@Driff97]

I'd argue the main reason why the Miis will stay regardless of what literally anyone says, is because to Nintendo, they're money printing machines.

[@Luigidreamteamfan]

I don’t think they see miis as that anymore. When was the last Mii game we got?

[@LG555]

​@@Luigidreamteamfanhe means in Smash with their costumes.

[@FSSmash]

​@@LG555SANS, doomguy, and some other popular mii costumes make decent mones

[@user-jw2it4qf2r]

@@FSSmash Might be able to argue that Miis being the de facto customization characters is holding Smash back in cosmetic DLC because every interesting costume gets thrown at them when Nintendo could be selling a Sans costume for Ness and print money on the memes alone

[@go4cyclone]

Surprised that Rosalina didn't end up as the last cut over Ike. I get she's a big name in Mario now but the greater Mario franchise makes up a literal fifth of this roster and it doesn't need every single one of those.

[@Nozo1234]

I feel similar but for Diddy kong, I think he was the obvious choice to get the boot

[@cuttsthecat6331]

@@Nozo1234 I can at least understand Diddy on the basis that he's a lot more important to his franchise than Rosalina is to hers. Plus, DK has a lot less characters than Mario does already; getting rid of Diddy would remove half of what's left of DK representation while removing Rosa would still leave us with the four most important Mario characters

[@iantaakalla8180]

Furthermore, Rosalina may be a part of common Mario characters, but she has now been relegated to the spin-off space like Waluigi will always be in, and in terms of exploring her side of the galaxies we are never getting another significant story in space again, which means that while Rosalina is part of Mario’s common roster she is now entirely like Waluigi.

[@TheUnknownsShow]

As a Rosa main, I always expect to see people cutting her in these kinds of videos. It's very clear that Rosalina isn't in the game because she's super important to Super Mario, but rather because they wanted to make a character with her puppet master playstyle and figured she'd be good for that role. I'm biased, but I think Rosalina should remain purely because there's no other character in the game who plays like her at all. Ice Climbers and Olimar who she gets compared to aren't really the same design philosophy. A bunch of heavies basically play the same, a bunch of swordies basically play the same, a bunch of projectile zoners basically play the same, but no other fighter plays like Rosalina.

[@nutnut6161]

@@Nozo1234Diddy and Donkey Kong run the DK franchise hand in hand lol

[@zacpadilla2432]

I appreciate you didn’t approach the 3rd parties from a “it might be rough for Nintendo to work out a deal with them”, cause realistically, after the Switch’s success, Nintendo shouldn’t have too much trouble working out licenses. And that reasoning in cut videos just makes it lame to cut them for that alone.

[@MrAnimason]

I think you underestimate how stingy companies can be with their character IPs. Even if they could make money out of licensing it.

[@grimsdol4665]

​@MrAnimason Actually I do think he brings up a great point, because one of the main reasons why a company might give someone the rights to a character is to hopefully boost sales of the I.P and there's few better ways then having them show up in Smash. I Imagine Persona 5 sales jumped by 30% when joker was added and that's all the proof you'd need to change a stingy companies mind

[@sonicrunn3r895]

@@grimsdol4665 That being said, we do have cases like Square Enix. I imagine they MIGHT be less stingy nowadays if Ultimate was made slightly later, but especially in basegame Ultimate they did NOT want anything more than the bare minimum in the game. And especially given Hero and Sephiroth only brought a handful of things (Sora as well but that's also Disney as well as Square so I'm not counting it), I don't know if they'd be on board. That said SNK, Sega, Bandai Namco and Microsoft are like “definitely” cases of getting them back. SNK especially was staggering with the amount of songs alone, so I see it pretty likely they'd be easy to work with. Sega has done a lot of partnership with Nintendo, and I don’t doubt they're fine to keep Sonic in the game (pls with remixes next time). Bandai Namco literally developed Smash 4 and Ultimate, and then Microsoft is a case like Sega where they're pretty chill with Nintendo.

[@brandonwilliams6119]

In Capcom’s case if they had to choose 1 between keeping Ryu and Megaman they’re definitely keeping Ryu, they might also push for a Monster Hunter and Resident Evil rep over Megaman. Honestly it feels like we’re at that point before Megaman even got in Smash, sure we got MM11 in 2018 but 6 years later and still no new announcement of a new game in the works like I don’t know a Megaman 12? X9? Or Legends 3? They had good momentum with 11 but didn’t continue with another new game, and it’s funny how Sega puts out more for Sonic can Capcom can for Megaman.

[@dysr]

@@sonicrunn3r895I’d imagine Konami would be pretty easy to work with too. They’ve been pretty generous with their IPs with things like just how much Castlevania content there is in Ultimate and the Dead Cells crossover, in addition to currently trying to rebuild customer goodwill while reviving the Metal Gear and Silent Hill series.

[@worldscoolestperson7672]

Using Banjo’s uninspired moveset as a reason to axe them feels weird when you already kept so many characters with the excuse of “well they can just fix their moveset next time”.

[@X2011racer]

A better reason would be, "Who knows if Phil Spencer would still be in Xbox Game Studios by then?" If it weren't for him, Banjo & Kazooie and Steve wouldn't make it in. Right now, Spencer is under fire for a lot of errors Microsoft has made for the Xbox Series consoles. Rushed launch titles, closing down studios because of a gigantic purchase, screwing over Toys for Bob, and releasing games outside Xbox, just to name a few. Chances are that once he steps down or gets voted out by no confidence, his replacement could undo his actions and rekindle the flames of rivalry to both Sony and Nintendo like in the 2000s. We'll likely never see Banjo or Steve ever again.

[@TempestNouzen]

Tbf it’s the mix of an uninspired moveset with the fact that Banjo is a legacy character without much relevance at this point.

[@theurbanreanimator7244]

​@@TempestNouzenNess

[@Volvagia1927]

@@theurbanreanimator7244 Ness at least has the "you can't cut the original 12" factor (see also: Jigglypuff and, sadly, Fox if we're being quite honest) backing him up.

[@Random_User666]

To be fair the problem with Banjo & Kazooie is not their moveset itself more so that their playstyle is an incohesive mess

[@FearTheImpaler]

Keeping 3 miis HAS to be rage bait

[@ivrydice0954]

Mockrock forgot to put Rosalina's section in the video and yet still acts like we'd miss her if we had to give her the boot.

[@orpheus9098]

Mii fighter mains are at the level of confidence I want to have, because they see about 80 characters and decide "Nah, I'm cooler than all of these guys"

[@matumcwrap]

they prefer killing at 80

[@dagoodboy6424]

I think so i like seeing myself

[@thesecondtonysoprano]

W pfp

[@matumcwrap]

@@thesecondtonysoprano mine's better

[@hedgehugs]

most Mii fighter mains don't even use the Mii's to be themselves, it's usually Sans or a meme character.

[@dabiskitt]

Me watching another “cutting half the roster” video knowing damn well my main is about to be cut:

[@toadboy4]

Always happens to me, though I thought Ike would survive this time, he isn’t my main but he’s one of my secondaries Bayonetta is the only character I play often that lived here

[@Breeze926]

Me watching every "cutting the roster in half" video knowing I won't be able to play Lucario in the next game.

[@supermario-kt6df]

I'm a Ganon main. I at least kept my main.

[@hoglin7]

R.I.P. ROB o7

[@alexbluer]

I am worried to im a mario main i shiver when i see this kind of videos

[@silvergalaxia8538]

The only thing that really baffled me was cutting bowser junior over rosalina. Jr has been a consistent villain in many mainline mario games, while rosalina was important only in galaxy 1 and has since been relegated to spinoffs like the kart and party series. Plus junior also comes with the koopalings which are even more classic to nintendo history.

[@triple_kale9332]

I was thinking the same thing, him and especially daisy are becoming more prevalent in the recent releases and they're much more recognizable and fan favorite picks imo

[@blocks4857]

Rosalina has a more unique playstyle than Junior and has more fans

[@Lexicon865]

Most people do this and it's insane to me because Junior is a far more popular and relevant character than Rosalina in the series, and has more opportunity to have his moveset improved than Rosalina because what can you even do for her that feels both fun AND accurate to her source material?

[@blocks4857]

@Lexicon865 I doubt Jr is more popular than Rosa

[@Lexicon865]

@@blocks4857 I mean maybe not as much of a fan fav but he's certainly far more relevant now. Same goes for Daisy, who I'd rather keep and have her moveset reworked esp with Wonder out over keeping Rosalina

[@aggressivelymediocre350]

You say you’re not being a coward about it but Echo Fighters being counted is the most cowardly. Go back and cut 4 more real characters

[@BigStrap]

If they don't count towards cuts, they shouldn't count towards the total either.

[@aggressivelymediocre350]

@@BigStrap Sora is fighter 82. -3 for Pokémon trainer and Mythra gets you 79 characters. +7 for echoes is 86. 86/2 = 43 which is how many he cut, including 7 echoes which means 36 real characters were cut. No echoes: 79, let’s be generous and say 78/2 = 39. So I did in fact do my math wrong and it should be 3 and not 4 more for a no echoes count

[@jtwk3400]

You can say that he was a coward for that but he kept all 3 Mii fighters which are some that are 3 easy cuts for most people. It balances out

[@Lilybutterfly57]

Echo fighters give more series representation, different looks and personalities, and some give different play styles. I’m not saying echo fighters are completely different characters from their original, but they are still important in smash brothers. Also if you cut one character, you would cut the other, you cut Ryu you cut Ken, you cut Roy you cut Chrom. Finally, it gives more content. So counting echo fighters is valid.

[@Zieoajcjcjwid]

​@@jtwk3400they make too much money through costumes to be cut

[@VCosmoz]

> I'm not a coward > Doesn't cut Puff ok

[@Mike-di3mo]

Does that really make him a coward? He didn't even list the other reasons why puff should stay in.

[@spiderzsonic6581]

He say that is imposible since is one of the 12 original, i mean, was almost cut in brawl and wiiu but no

[@Mike-di3mo]

@@spiderzsonic6581 puff wasn't almost cut in wii u

[@yjcentrion1159]

he also kept toon link

[@kwagar9810]

Cutting almost all the fire emblem cast but keeping Toon Link is CRAZY

[@WhyYouWahYoo]

This is actually way more agreeable to me than most other lists I’ve watched like this. In particular, cutting most of the “retro throwback” picks cleared up so much more room than most allow because they feel obligated to keep Game and Watch or Little Mac or ROB and then end up making ASININE cuts like Diddy Kong or Ness. My one complaint is that keeping Sora and cutting Cloud feels extremely weird to me. I think Cloud, while he is the protagonist of one game, is the clear Final Fantasy character who deserves to be in Smash most, and that series being completely cut while Kingdom Hearts stays feels weird considering KH is practically a spin off of FF. Then again, Persona is represented without any Shin Megami Tensei in the roster, so maybe I’m just being silly

[@justdittosthings1722]

On the Cloud and Sora thing- I think there's also the argument of relation to Nintendo, even though that's mattered much less for Ultimate DLC. FF7 is where the series moved away from Nintendo systems, whereas KH has had a presence on Nintendo handhelds since Chain of Memories, with four other entries being made specifically for Nintendo stuff (yeah Days didn't star Sora and Re:coded was a remake/reimagining of a phone game but still). Cloud is still enough of an icon to deserve a spot, but if we're cutting as many characters as we are, then I think it's a reasonable factor to draw the line.

[@certifiedtrash3152]

Honestly at least personally I'd keep sepharoth and rather than keep cloud just include a rep from a different final fantasy instead as a compromise

[@jonathanlgill]

I have always thought the FF character who deserves to be in Smash is one who actually starred on a Nintendo console, even though those FF games aren't as popular as the more modern ones. Terra or Cecil would allow for some transform mechanics that have been lost with Aegis.

[@certifiedtrash3152]

@@jonathanlgill maybe but I wouldn't mind a newer charicrer either

[@eugger3011]

Especially since Kingdom Hearts is supposed to be a series based on Final Fantasy. So to have the character of what's essentially a spinoff franchise, but not a character from the actual franchise itself is weird to me.

[@lasercraft32]

Cutting Ridley (one of Metroid's most iconic characters, who's been fan requested for years) and replacing him with a guy that appeared in _one game_ makes zero sense at all.

[@pengoschwortz4734]

Literally 😭

[@oakijak7387]

The Ridley cut is genuinely insane, I think most franchises should be protagonist and antagonist at least. Smash is already lacking in the villain department

[@Lexicon865]

Both Ridley and Raven Beak should be there. Dark Samus can go if needed and Zero Suit definitely has to go

[@Magic_Ice]

I get that, but honestly it really feels like the team didn’t want to add in Ridley and only did to make the fans happy. Honestly I can see Raven Beak or Sylux getting in the next game and have Ridley be a boss again.

[@saratoga6663]

Keeping rosalina because he has the hots for her over Mr game and watch an incredibly important part of nintendos history and a big reason to why the continued to make handhelds is insane

[@axolofa]

Rosalina getting kept over Cloud and Ike is criminal

[@benross9174]

Rosa is the ONLY full on puppet character in Smash. Which is already a rare archetype in fighting games. Ike and Cloud or both just swordies gameplay wise. Keeping Rosa means more archetypes/playstyles are in the game

[@kicksyo2171]

I'm fine with him keeping Rosalina, but I wish he had kept Daisy considering that literally she's one of the core members of the Mario party and cart racing universe.

[@gavinrak2692]

That's what I thought too

[@gavinrak2692]

​@kicksyo2171 she could just be an alt. All the echos should just become alts

[@kicksyo2171]

@@gavinrak2692 I really want her to be your own character, but that would at least be better than cutting her entirely. We'll have to wait and see.

[@Salnax]

"But I'm Not A Coward" Proceeds to save Jigglypuff and throw out 7 of Fire Emblem's 8 reps.

[@benisign]

Smash is a popularity contest and when it comes to the 30 something smashtuber scene they just don't like rpgs and play a lot of vanilla stuff so it makes sense in the space these people inhabit to keep puff and cut byleth despite three houses moving millions of copies just like xenoblade yet he kept two dk reps despite diddy last appearing in 2015 on the wiiu

[@Salnax]

@@benisign I don't even mind a KZbinr's personal biases coming into account for a project like this. It's just the juxtaposition between announcing one's bravery while taking a popular stance is hilarious.

[@benisign]

@@Salnax People covet the respect of controversy so they end up being safe edgy by doing one shocking thing then walking it back or softening the blow with something that is popular in order to still be accepted while appearing controversial. Or at least that's the only explanation that makes sense to me. I can safely say that my picks would be a lot more controversial though since I'd get rid of a lot of the og 12 since the whole thing is dumb to me

[@Salnax]

@@benisign I'd get rid of every 3rd party rep and Jigglypuff and KEEP Duck Hunt and Wii Fit Trainer. I'm not expecting ANYONE to approve of my choices.

[@Mike-di3mo]

​@@Salnaxwhy specifically jigglypuff falcon and Ness are still more irrelevant and puff extremely recognizable also cutting puff over all the FE reps is insane atleast cut like half them lol

[@Blackacre438]

14:31 playing Fodlan winds after cutting Byleth is MEAN

[@jonathanlgill]

The real fearless answer is to say that the "original 12" doesn't mean anything. Gen 1 of Pokemon has tons of representation in Smash, and Jigglypuff contributes significantly less to what is being represented. She's not a core part of the franchise, she was just a joke character on the N64. Cut!

[@Mike-di3mo]

It was only a joke in 64 and it's still a extremely iconic and recognizable pokemon. Keep!

[@crystalpokedude4329]

@@jonathanlgill bro used the "They've been cut before, they can be cut again" logic to justify cutting Ice Climbers, but ignores that Puff was almost cut in Brawl.

[@icecontrol1]

@@Mike-di3mo She literally stopped being recognizable to most

[@Mike-di3mo]

@@crystalpokedude4329 but was puff cut? No

[@Mike-di3mo]

@@icecontrol1 ?

[@lasercraft32]

In my opinion, I think Echo Fighters should not count when splitting the roster in half. The entire purpose of Echo Fighters is to be extremely easy to implement clones of already existing characters, so it would take little to know actual effort to include them if they were to reset the roster. (and yes, I'm aware you mention this in the video)

[@HOLDENPOPE]

personally, if they bring the echoes back, I'd rather see them decloned or at least made into semi-clones. imagine Dark Samus using attacks like the ones she uses in Prime, attacks that poison people, imagine Daisy using sports and competition-themed moves. Imagine Ganondorf finally fighting like himself. These fighters have enough potential that I usually rather see them get reworked in Fan Smash Rosters than cut.

[@bwaterfall11]

@@HOLDENPOPE well Daisy could easily be a semi clone using some things from wonder/spinoffs, plus Nintendo is clearly trying to make a core 6 with Mario,luigi,peach,daisy,toad and Yoshi so keeping her would make sense

[@andymcclurg9916]

"I'm not a coward" "We're keeping the original 12"

[@Mike-di3mo]

Yeah he didn't cut falcon lol

[@OGEdger]

​@@Mike-di3mo Falcon is pretty much the _essence_ of Smash. He's THE OG since it seems like his moveset was directly taken from the Dragon King tech demo that would eventually become Smash Bros.

[@biohazardbin]

@@OGEdger 🥱cut.

[@andymcclurg9916]

@@Mike-di3mo Not who I meant. Cut Falcon and Nintendo HQ gets burnt to the ground. I'm talking Jiggs, Ness, Yoshi, maybe Samus

[@Mike-di3mo]

@@andymcclurg9916 I'm still cutting falcon because he is way to overrated and I main puff :) but yoshi how dare you >:( I will cut everything related to f zero before I cut the next character on the chopping Blox which would be puff Ness or fox but that my opinion

[@mroms25]

All I can say is thank god you arent in charge.

[@koifish9388]

Not bad choices. I would have cut 2 of the 3 Mii's tho. Combine them into 1 so that picking your moveset is actually picking your weapon, then you can keep Falco and Ike (Even tho I'd not be sad to see them go)

[@Qwuxa]

That actually sounds good

[@z-dawggog53]

I think the ideal scenario for the miis with cutting half the roster would be fusing all three into one mii that has one special from each mii in each slot this would also make the miis a lot more unique as characters since the specials who are clones if other moves can be cut out

[@Traveler_of_the_Stars]

I don't think cutting Ridley, King K. Rool, Banjo & Kazooie, and Cloud make sense considering how popular of requests they were. That just doesn’t make sense, especially because three of those were specifically mentioned by Sakurai to have done popular on the Smash Ballot. I think the glaring choices remaining were Toon Link and Rosalina & Luma. The former was especially odd when you cut Ike to keep him in. As for the latter, she's a popular character overall, but with Mario already having a healthy number of characters, I don't think the "puppet fighter" boon is enough of a justification. Also, why *not* have Animal Crossing have two characters? It's certainly big enough to. Heck, it could even get a third.

[@biohazardbin]

✋NO MORE ANIMAL CROSSING, IT IS NOT THAT GOOD OF A GAME. IT IS FOR FEMALE WOMEN AND 3 YEAR OLDS. ONE MUST GO. ✋

[@KuvaChakkhurr]

I personally disagree with cutting Cloud OR Sephiroth, but keeping Sora which is from a sort of Final Fantasy Spinoff. Final Fantasy 7 is one of the biggest games ever made, unlike the rest of the franchise, not only that but Cloud's addition in 4 essentially opened the gates for anyone to be added, so he is pretty important to Smash itself aswell.

[@blocks4857]

That's only true if you ignore Sonic and Snake

[@TheRedCap30]

I disagree with that last point, Snake will always hold that title no matter how many people try to spin it.

[@jak199527]

@@TheRedCap30yeah, snake is by far the best candidate for "they can add anyone." Sonic was a big argument because he was a direct competitor, but snake had no business being in smash. Didn't vibe with the rest of the cast at all and I loved it.

[@_vividley]

sora is the most requested smash character in history btw

[@gormflaith2326]

I feel like even tho FF7 is super iconic, Dragon Quest and Kingdom Hearts make for really strong and recognisable Square reps already. The moveset potential with Sora and Hero is just way larger than at least with Cloud (and I feel like you can't have Sephiroth without him so...)

[@FalcoVille]

Was fully prepared for Falco to get the axe towards the end. I'm blaming the Wii U, and it's actually making me feel better.

[@SadToffee]

new falco aint falco anyways.

[@Magic_Ice]

@@SadToffeeyeah old falco was a skinwalker

[@SadToffee]

@@Magic_Ice nah old falco was da bird. new falco is just wack.

[@ShallBePurified]

If you really weren't a coward, you would've cut Jigglypuff.

[@Mike-di3mo]

I've seen so many comments like this and this pretty much shows he wasn't a coward.

[@ShallBePurified]

@@Mike-di3mo Damn, I thought I was being original. :( But for real though, if we wanted a proper fairy-type rep, there are more interesting Pokemon than Jigglypuff.

[@mrbister8714]

Feels really refreshing to see someone not immediately go “Steve is annoying and overtuned in Ultimate, I hope he’s never in Smash again 😡” lol

[@benross9174]

I mean realistically you just need to change some numbers around as he said. Make his moves combo less, less KO power in general (like Pac-Man, make his kill power reliant on setups) and so on. Steve design wise is just DLC overtuned Pac-Man/Snake. Its much less problematic than spindash in a game with no walls

[@mrbister8714]

@@benross9174 That’s what I’m sayinnnn

[@paulakroy2635]

⁠@@benross9174I disagree. He is a very knife’s edge character and the developers didn’t really realize how powerful camping is

[@gavinrak2692]

​@@benross9174and just fix phantom mlg lol that's the main problem

[@saratoga6663]

Making his blocks last a lot less and increasing their hurtbox would drastically reduce his impact, even if you kept all his other moves the same

[@CyclonSilver]

Sweet, here's my monthly "why I'm cutting 6 to 7 Fire Emblem characters" video, oh joy ! All joking aside, it almost didn't hurt that time, you're pretty good at this stuff, Mock !

[@ashen_roses]

I mean he didn't call all their fans weebs and queers, it's a step up from the usual malevolence Smashers have towards said series.

[@adriahrin3284]

@@ashen_roses i've personally never heared fire emblem fans called queers, and it's literally the stupidest insult someone could make, since there's almost no queer stuff in fire emblem games, off the top of my head i can think of three things queer related in fire emblem, so there's not much there go for

[@ashen_roses]

@@adriahrin3284 you'd think, and yet

[@christopherjobin-official7440]

​@@adriahrin3284You will not believe the amount of times this has happened-

[@hi-i-am-atan]

@@adriahrin3284 the context you're missing due to your youth is that "queer" as an insult is the exact same as "gay" as an insult which is to say, it's for when someone wants to insult you by calling you feminine ( derogatory ), but also imply you're a degenerate. because, y'know. homophobia

[@Sean_Bird]

Cutting all the Fire Emblem characters but Marth… yeah, I don’t think that would fly. I especially don’t see Alear making up for losing everyone else considering the divided thoughts on their game overall, nor would the prospect of a character nobody knows anything about yet. I feel like at least Byleth needs to stay especially, considering Three Houses is still one of the popular entries in the series and is the highest selling. I also don’t agree with dropping basically every first-party retro rep, I think at least Game & Watch and ROB should stay considering their history with Nintendo. Considering the nature of this type of video, there are bound to be various opinions, these are just my thoughts on the matter.

[@crystalpokedude4329]

Smash fans just want to completely sabotage the relationship between Intelligent Systems and Nintendo with videos like this.

[@theillusionist1494]

Who would you cut instead, out of curiosity?

[@pacmax4454]

@@theillusionist1494toon link, Rosalina, Miis, jigglypuff

[@Sean_Bird]

@@theillusionist1494 If going off of MockRock’s roster specifically, I’d at least probably drop the all of the Miis, Rosalina, Toon Link and Mewtwo for Byleth, Ike, Game & Watch, R.O.B., Ridley, and Lucario. I might have to try the full “halving the roster” thing myself if I have the time.

[@biohazardbin]

@@Sean_Bird Fuck off, why the fuck would you cut Mewtwo for BYLETH of all people?

[@brokatron]

I genuinely don't think I'd play the game

[@bingoviini]

He really said that a bird is cooler than Ridley... Well, more power to him, even if he is just objectively wrong

[@iantaakalla8180]

But is Ridley even that cool to play? The answer is no. He plays like a heavyweight with random heavyweight move and menace that does not land.

[@bingoviini]

@@iantaakalla8180 he's not cool to play He's like Ganondorf. Really badass and intimidating villain, ruined boring and uninspired moveset

[@burgergud2804]

How is he “objectively wrong”

[@_vividley]

​@@burgergud2804 that's what i'm wondering cuz raven beak was definitely a cooler villain than ridley

[@nutnut6161]

@@_vividleyand has half of the legacy compared to Ridley

[@TheGodIvy]

Not a coward, yet doesnt cut anyone from the original 12. Totally not a coward. A few of them can easily go, but nope

[@gavinrak2692]

But who would go tho? Jigglypuff?

[@jstar3382]

​@@gavinrak2692 yoshi

[@BringBackOGClubPenguin]

@@jstar3382????? YOSHI!?!?!?

[@blocks4857]

You're right, let's cut Falcon, Ness, Puff and Fox

[@worthlesshuman5041]

@@blocks4857 I can maybe see an argument for Puff and MAYBE falcon if you really push it but cutting Ness and Fox from smash is absolutely absurd. Mother is still a beloved and iconic series from nintendo and although starfox itself isn't as popular, Fox is inextricably tied to smash. What would you even replace them with? None of the other cut characters even come close

[@marcusjohansson3192]

well the only video game this guy has played is smash bros

[@leafmotifs681]

Gameplay reasons aside, I can’t comprehend keeping Rosalina (a two-off character that has been relegated to spin-off roster filler) or toon link over either Kazuya or Terry. Relegating an entire genre of sub genres into one character (Ryu) and one which smash exists as a subset of seems a bit silly. Also I don’t see how Sora would be worth keeping over Cloud.

[@TRQDude]

Mainline Mario and Zelda characters deserve the dumpster more than offbrand Street Fighter clones?

[@leafmotifs681]

@@TRQDude “Tekken is just off brand SF” You aren’t beating the “I have never played a video game except for smash bros” allegations with that one. I don’t know why you would even reply when you so obviously do not know what you are talking about

[@gavinrak2692]

​@@TRQDudeYou've definitely only played smash as a "fighting game"

[@gavinrak2692]

​@@leafmotifs681exactly 😂

[@novameowww]

@@TRQDude this is supposed to be bait right

[@leounlimited3417]

Great list! I consistently appreciate your level-headed approach to what a character brings to the table as a whole. A few things I'd tweak for my own list: You mention cutting Robin because Smash has "other magic swordfighters", but then we lost Cloud, Corrin, Aegis, and Sephiroth... And while Sora is very much a magic swordfighter, I'd still personally swap back in Robin (for early/middle/present Fire Emblem representation) and remove Rosalina. Good character, important to Mario, but I don't consider her untouchable like the other core Mario characters are. Plus you can sort of argue that Olimar can do the puppet fighter thing, albeit differently. I just think you lose so much in terms of Fire Emblem itself's representation in Smash if you lose the character that actually uses Fire Emblem mechanics. You didn't mention splitting apart the Miis, but I would be okay with losing Mii Swordfighter. Plenty of other more interesting swordfighters, and having two custom characters is still more than most platform fighters can brag about. I'd add back Ken, who is a very important fighter, and even though you cut him early, I think he means so much to fighting games that I'd choose a similar playstyle to Ryu over a completely different playstyle (like Rosa). But still really reasonable! If this was the next Smash roster, I wouldn't be crying. Core 12 getting immunity is unfair but Smash is unfair (cries in Ganondorf)

[@adriahrin3284]

not only that but having no characters of the game that made it possible for fire emblem to continue existing feels wrong, and out of the three characters from that game robin is the one that should stay the most (also, no byleth either? the character from the game with most sales from fire emblem?!)

[@benross9174]

I dont think Olimar counts as a puppet fighter. You dont really control the Pikmin induvidually (except I guess whiste and even then). Its more just hurtboxes he throws/uses as disjoints. Rosa+Luma is THE puppet fighter in Smash; with the closest second one being Ice climbers. And even then Nana is AI. Luma is 100% controllable by the Rosalina player

[@benross9174]

@@adriahrin3284Yeah Robin is actually the character you the player actually play as, a lot people forget about that. Robin is like Awakenings Byleth kinda

[@nazukah2861]

Lowkey id cut both Gunner and Swordfighter, keep Brawler as they at least have some sort of iconic status with fistfighting (Wii Sports Boxing) but in this scenario, i think you can grt away with only 1 Mii

[@ariwl1]

@@adriahrin3284 I'd miss Lucina but yeah Robin is the character if Awakening would have a rep at all. I think Byleth has also distinguished themselves enough to have a more secure spot. Though I do see his argument for each new Smash having a sort of rotating guest character for the most recent game. Much as I enjoyed Engage though it didn't exactly set the world on fire so I wouldn't be surprised if they skipped it. Though with the ring mechanic Alear could make for an interesting stance character. Hmm...

[@Kururuko]

Fun fact: Duck Hunt alone has sold more than the entire Fire Emblem series. Just thought I'd point that out for absolutely no reason :)

[@hogndog2339]

Only because it was bundled with Mario Bros.

[@SayakaSoulGem]

Pack-in game

[@TheWrathAbove]

Wii Fit is also one of the best selling games of all time :)

[@s.a.k.i7768]

If you just want a Smash with "💰" characters ,Smash would just be a game with Mario,Pokémon and Minecraft characters. At this point,just play Pokken if that's the kind of roster you want

[@taokretz2776]

For the Mii characters, I'd say there should be one customizable Mii encompassing all three of them. For example, you choose a Brawler, Gunner, or Swordfighter "body" which would give you all of the normal attacks from that archetype. Then, each special slot has one option from each archetype and you can assemble your own custom special moveset from there. Yes, balancing this could be a nightmare, but I think that could be a nice compromise.

[@drake.the.exiled]

Yeah, we really don't need three whole character slots for Miis.

[@benross9174]

Bonus comment: not keeping Terry I would disagree strongly with as KoF is a big reason we have smash to begin with. Full hops, short hops, spot dodge, dashing, taunting in a match, THE INVITATION WITH THE LETTER. All directly inspired from King of Fighters/FF

[@paulakroy2635]

Umvc3 is responsible for a lot of ultimates design

[@benross9174]

@@paulakroy2635 Not nearly to the same extent as KoF. Sakurai got inspired to make a fighting game thats easy to learn when he crushed a beginner at KoF. Thats a big part of the orgin of Smash

[@novameowww]

ultimate literally introduced KOF mode too, being squad strike side note: the invitation is just based on how letters look in japan. but yeah if pit gets to be in because of sakurai favoritism terry definitely should

[@benross9174]

@@novameowww yeah tbh on further introspection I think the reason Smash uses the letter is cause you get mail in Animal Crossing and Villager was the first announced charcter in Smash 4

[@novameowww]

@@benross9174 really, it wasn't that much of a thing at all until isabelle's trailer, and even then it still wasn't that much of a thing until joker's trailer, at which point everyone pretended they had been doing it since the beginning even though they kind of haven't

[@bulletcola7890]

I vastly prefer keeping Fox and Wolf rather than Fox/Falco.

[@WindowsXPBOIII-pc5yo]

Snake I feel like is at a similar point as Captain Falcon where he has an identity as a smash character

[@AlexDown1]

I'd actually say that more for Little Mac, this roster has no "legacy game rep" which is a smash staple, except for Captain Falcon but he was a guarantee.

[@MockRockTalk]

Captain Falcon has appeared in 5 games (6 with the 3DS), and Snake has appeared in 2, I hear you but those aren't equivalent at all imo

[@christopherjobin-official7440]

I don't know anybody whod take toothpaste over Byleth. It doesn't help that Three Houses is just the better game.

[@mythos6308]

Say it louder 🔊🔊🔊

[@Angel-Neo]

I think that the logic is rigth, they can replace Byleth over the new MC of the new entry of the series at the time, don't forget that when byleth was announced Three houses wasn't out in the west. He just used toothpastes ugly hair as an example

[@mythos6308]

@@Angel-Neo Idk what you are talking about but Three Houses was out for years by the time Byleth was put into smash

[@tirex3673]

Depends, what you value, in terms of Story FE16 is one of the best in the Franchise, while FE17 is probably among the weakest (But still better than the complete disasterpiece, that was FE14), but in terms of gameplay, FE16 is pretty mediocre, while FE17 is the best in the franchise.

[@christopherjobin-official7440]

@@tirex3673 I value story... And Edelgard. I really value Edelgard. Taking Amyr away from me just makes me sad.

[@zachpro5475]

The fact dexit happened 5 years ago this year is insane

[@variumi]

The sword and shield tree killed my wife and burned my crops

[@mintystingmoon4787]

sword and shield took my day old sandwich, they must suffer

[@Team-Eclipse6024]

I am not going to bother arguing with you based on the cuts I disagree with. This a thought experiment and his opinion calm down

[@mrmediocre848]

How dare you don't devolve into an Internet argument

[@jstar3382]

My only issue is how inconsistent the reasoning is. Reasons to keep others aren't good enough to keep another character. He shouldn't use bs excuses and just say "yeah I don't like this one, cutting it"

[@JB_CY]

I am happy you kept Hero. Thank you for recognizing his awesomeness.

[@benross9174]

People dont realize how insanely popular DQ is in Japan. Pokemania in the west is nothing, its like crack cocaine for children over there

[@aneasteregg8171]

Worst character in the game

[@gormflaith2326]

@@aneasteregg8171 me when i lie (min-min is right there!)

[@CornbreadDestroyer]

@@aneasteregg8171crazy

[@scimitaronic]

I, as a ridley main, do not appreciate this undeserved slander. He is by far one of the most well-known antagonists in metroid history. He is quite literally the bowser to Samus and removing him would just feel wrong.

[@meganintenbro]

Yea for as cool ravenbeak is Ridley has legacy. I also think MockRock is pretty harsh on his move set design, stuff like his neutral b being taken right from Metroid on the NES feels so right to me. The only moves I really get the hate for is his down air, and his up special is too restrictive.

[@scimitaronic]

@meganintenbro Yeah, why did they not give him his tail stsb for dair? Like that was the most basic reference they could do.

[@minixlemonade2335]

One of? Give bro some street cred, he is THE MOST well known antagonist.

[@scimitaronic]

@minixlemonade2335 there is kraid and the metroids.

[@S80570]

People like to forget that the only reason Ice Climbers were cut previously was due to the technical limitations of the 3DS.

[@animorphs128]

I would have cut rosalina rather than ike. Shes doesnt even really feel like a puppet character. She also hasnt appeared in a mainline mario game since galaxy 2. Shes cool but not that cool

[@galacticglamourgirl]

She has, she was in 3D World.

[@flaregamer64]

First time watching one of these to the end, thanks for not making this over half an hour.

[@whatamidoinghere9775]

I'd be happy to see sora go, considering how inaccurate he is to his source material and how much disney doesn't want anything to do with smash. I'd then keep Cloud, who is the undeniable face of final fantasy.

[@jstar3382]

Bruh what? He's super accurate to the gameplay of KH. Floaty fucker that combos you.

[@CappaIsHere0]

It was Square Enix who was stingy about Sora in smash, not Disney

[@AceMario7]

@@CappaIsHere0 And even then, it was Nomura specifically. As in, Nomura literally said in an interview with Game Informer that he was a bigger roadblock for Sora getting in since he thought it could clash with the established lore and the Disney worlds in Kingdom Hearts, while Disney basically said "Go ahead! This is a great opportunity."

[@jstar3382]

"inaccurate to source material" brother his moveset is ALL based on KH. His play style feels like KH

[@metaknightjudgesyoursins4710]

“Innacurate he is to the source material” This is proof that people don’t play the original games these characters come from Mfer HALF of his stuff is things he does in KH

[@alviabtahi5440]

Can't wait for Corrin and Dr.Mario to make it to the next game

[@mythos6308]

I would generally hate to see Corrin again we get a 3DS rep with Awakening and they just get overshadowed by Three Houses being the best selling FE game they’re just cooked

[@orcareqiuem4894]

Keeping Sora and axing Cloud is bold... but I love it

[@pronerdproductions8009]

Bro literally cut every character I play... I can't blame him but damn it hurt (I play Incineroar, Joker, Pichu, and Cloud)

[@SolracDude]

Choosing to cut Robin, one of Smash’s only mages and Mr.FireEmblemAvatar, before Ike is certainly a decision. But hey, you eventually dropped your bias and cut him so, no real complaints. I will say that I think we could safely cut Mii Swordfighter and Gunner and have just Brawler. Gunner already feels like an inclusion made for sake of a trinity and Swordfighter feels like an admittance to the prevalence of swords in the game. Take some of their specials, give them to Brawler (renamed to Fighter or just Mii) as custom specials, and I think it could work.

[@saltyralts]

I like Mii Swordfighter, but yeah, we can cut Swordfighter and Gunner. Mii Brawler is the only one basically anybody cares about.

[@MoonGhostDoodles]

It's still so baffling to see people keep cutting ROB in these kind of videos. Guys, he literally saved video games. Give him more credit, seriously. Not to mention that he feels like THE essential retro pick if there had to be one. But generally while most of the cuts here sting you handled it pretty fair. Fairer than most I'd say.

[@morphstarchangeling8024]

He also cut Robin and Robin represents the game that saved a franchise that has turned into one of Nintendo bigger franchises.

[@soveryumble7250]

@@morphstarchangeling8024 I don't mind him cutting Robin, really. Cutting Robin before Ike, who has nothing but just pure popularity power and was the one whose games almost plunged said franchise into an early grave? That's sketchy.

[@NigelMelanisticSmith]

I'd put Game and Watch as the primary legacy pick, especially since G&W has the benefit of being in smash the longest.

[@minixlemonade2335]

ROB didn't save video games, Mario did.

[@metaknightjudgesyoursins4710]

@@minixlemonade2335Genius, if the NES was marketed as a game device no one would’ve bought it It was marketed as a toy and R.O.B added onto it Super Mario Bros did save the gaming industry but don’t act like R.O.B didn’t do shit either

[@wariothelegend9645]

it's a real shame so many people love to cut Richter from these fun rosters even though a large part of the Belmont moveset are abilities originating from him. it's probably tempting to cut a clone if you're doing the slash the roster in half challenge but in an actual Smash game i genuinely cannot see a reason why they would drop Richter entirely if they were going to bring back Simon. the Belmonts moveset was very clearly designed with the idea of Richter being a costume or echo in mind, with core moves from the kit including the down tilt, up special, and even the final smash being based on Richter's abilities in games like SOTN. contrast this to something like Ganondorf or Dark Samus where they could just easily slap them onto an existing character rig later in development and compromise those characters canon abilities in the process. even the direct presentation where they revealed the Belmonts has the note of "Simon can also be considered Richter's echo." it's also worth noting Richter's starring role in Castlevania: Nocturne, the most relevant Castlevania thing at the moment, but I doubt Smash fans actually care about Castlevania and just consider Richter an expendable slot waste no one likes, despite Richter seemingly being the preference for Belmont players. if they ever published online usage data and Simon was dead last, not Dark Pit, i wouldn't be that shocked.

[@CSwizzleDizzle]

Not to mention Richter is very popular in Japan, more than Simon if memory serves me right. Which isn't to say Simon isn't popular, it's just that his popularity really does hail from just being "the protagonist of the first game" and unfortunately, people are going to prioritize that far more. Which I guess I can't fully fault, because the way I always saw it was that even though the moveset was made with Richter more in mind, Simon was listed as the main fighter _because_ he was the first protag i.e. the original.

[@TheWrathAbove]

Richter is just the most popular Castlevania character in general, aside from maybe Alucard. Simon, meanwhile, is kind of a nothing character in the franchise proper, he's the main character of the first two games, yeah, but that's about where it ends because he has no personality and the plot of those games has no real barring on the rest of the series. I find lists like this fall into these trappings a lot. Lots of them drop Greninja despite it being the single most popular Pokemon, or keep Roy despite him being one the absolute least popular FE protags.

[@Rowlet216]

Not cutting Greninja is certainly an odd choice when Incineroar was cut for the same reason that applies to Greninja, no longer being relevant, its special snowflake form even has been cut now

[@TheJst100]

This thought experiment hurts my soul, I literally couldn't cut more than a couple characters if someone put a gun to my head, props to you for making good points.

[@nascour5991]

Cutting Ridley instead of reworking him is absolutely wild.

[@migmalucogachatm5618]

Boiling take' saying that "villager is more of an avatar than a character" and "isabelle is the mascot of the franchise" is like putting in creeper but not steve

[@NinjaPickle]

But Creeper doesn't talk to the player, nor is there a series of Isabelle's that attack the player. Isabelle is your guide and helper for most of your time in New Leaf and New Horizons, is the one that you see on the cover of both games, is the one that greets you every morning in both games (at least once you finish the tutorial in New Horizons), and is the one that always gets represented in merchandise and promotional materials for the game. It's between Tom Nook and Isabelle for who's the face of the franchise, and while many including myself would argue Tom is the better pick, Isabelle has proven to be the most popular character in all of Animal Crossing. Creepers are simple mob enemies that are unique to Minecraft and make for the most appealing design in terms of merchandise, they are not vital to the Minecraft experience like Isabelle is.

[@3DOM_]

Creeper doesn’t have a personality. Also Villager isn’t an animal, as a rep for animal crossing.

[@hiHiHiHiHiHiiiiiiiiiii]

Consolidate the miis into a single character. Boom you don’t have to cute Ike now

[@ABAgamer_]

Another great video to watch as always, MockRock! That being said, it felt like I was watching a public execution this time around. But I’m glad I’m not the only one that felt the pain during this.

[@FishBoy9364]

Bro really kept Hero but ditched Ridley

[@AlexDown1]

Bro... it's Dragon Quest. Correct me if I'm wrong but the most recent (and only kinda) Metroid entries, Dread and Prime 4, didn't/don't have Ridley???

[@Krona-fb4dn]

I will agree that removing Ridley is like, removing Steve tier of insanity. Which shows since Mockrock's only real criticism of Ridley in the video is just "I don't like him in Ult." BUT Hero is actually a very good pick and Dragonquest is HUUUUUUUGE in Japan. It's one of those games that like everyone in Japan knows. and Hero is still quite unique as a fighter.

[@thesalinator3557]

As an IMMENSE Metroid fan who has not played a single Dragon Quest, I begrudgingly have to agree. I definitely think that Metroid needs more Smash rep, and I'd certainly rather have Ridley instead of Sylux or Raven Beak. That said, Dragon Quest is so unimaginably important to video games as a whole. Our entire modern conception of JRPGs was founded by that series. So many genre conventions would not be the same if not for DQ. I genuinely cannot think of a series that deserves a spot more. I actually think not cutting Greninja is insane. Keeping Pikachu and Pokemon Trainer makes sense (as much as I despise the Gen 1 favoritism), but if we are paring down the roster to the must haves, there is no way a Pokemon from 3 gens ago is making it.

[@Krona-fb4dn]

@@thesalinator3557 Gen 1 is like pacman tier, your parents probably know what Pikachu and Gen 1 Pokemon are and you can still dislike Genwunners while still liking Gen 1 pokemon. What's insane is not cutting two of the Mii's (keep ONE though, alternatively fuse them all together). And I do think Greninja has an argument. Hell, Greninja is the ONLY pokemon to basically get an Anime-fusion with Ash that did end up in the games. That is how popular Greninja is that he is that tied to Ash.

[@benross9174]

DQ is bigger than most Nintendo framchises in Japan. Its insanely popular.

[@Motemeii]

Roy is considered not a clone but Lucas is lmfao

[@ToddSnap3]

The miis were also a vehicle for monetization so I think them staying definitely makes sense.

[@Squish-E]

welp all my mains survived so I’ll take it

[@BroudbrunMusicMerge]

Ice Climbers got an audible gasp out of me

[@fattymuffin2182]

that’s crazy, i feel like they’re such an easy cut given the fact that they’re from a single nes game with zero current fans

[@BroudbrunMusicMerge]

@@fattymuffin2182 Ice Climbers, imo, are _insanely_ iconic as fighting game characters as a result of their unique Smash traits that have become legendary within fighting games. Though you're right, too -- if we only consider the legacy of their original franchise, they're the easiest cuts in the game

[@Krona-fb4dn]

@@BroudbrunMusicMerge I wholly agree, they're not important to gaming, but their Smash inclusion and implementation is what makes them important. Genuinely one of the most iconic fighting game designs. Not just a platform fighter design.

[@Jaj_von_jorgus]

Not cutting the miis and then cutting falco and ike while keeping toon link is one of the most stupid decisions I've ever seen

[@morphstarchangeling8024]

If we're being ruthless from Nintendo's standpoint. All the 3rd party characters not named Sonic are on the chopping block. Hero and Sora might have some standing as Square enix character but for the most part the 3rd parties are getting axed before they cut a fire emblem character.

[@therealestguy959]

Seeing the MIIs spared from the cut is pretty cool. But like I'd beg sakurai for a swordfighter and gunner rework. Swordfighter plays like link and gunner bursts blood vessels online.

[@epiccarrot88]

I don't know, as you said, Robin is the face of the game that saved Fire Emblem. I really don't think he should be cut. Terry is also a character that doesn't just represent one long-running franchise, but most franchises released by a single company. Cutting him doesn't feel right either. Realistically, looking at Smash as a whole in its current state, it's way less of a Nintendo crossover game as it is a gaming crossover game as a whole. For that reason, I'd argue that Rosalina should be cut instead of Terry, because as far as mainline games go, she had two games and a third where she was a bonus character. I just don't think she's relevant enough to gaming as a whole to justify her inclusion in a halved roster. Likewise, I understand the argument for keeping the original 12... But Jigglypuff is a character that most people wouldn't exactly be as sad to see go, especially compared to Awakening's place in the game. I get as a Smash fan it feels wrong, but at the same time, looking at the bigger picture, I just think that makes more sense And in the same line of thinking with Smash's new identity... Two Donkey Kong characters, given it's a spinoff of Mario, is just too much. I'd argue cutting Diddy before Cloud, given to this day Cloud is still huge. And Bayonetta is just... not big enough compared to Snake or Joker. Also, Animal Crossing is a weird one, because as far as the popularity of the series goes, it could be argued that it does deserve two spots, but at the same time it just doesn't have as much potential. For me personally, given how Isabelle only debuted in New Leaf, Villager represents the series as a whole better. If, say, Tom Nook were in the game, then I could see cutting both Villager and Isabelle, or even just Villager. But if we're talking a sole rep, Villager should be the one.

[@stetstetstitstreats]

if you really weren't a coward, it'd be so easy to cut a third of the original 64 roster. everyone's too afraid to cut any of them in these but i don't see why. they can still get a lot of representation in other places than the playable roster and it's annoying that everyone puts them on a pedestal. we already got the smash game where we get every character from past games in, it's got all the series fan service, they really don't need to keep giving characters slots on the roster just because they're iconic to smash. it'd make a lot of people mad if they cut them, but that's why i say *if you weren't a coward, you can cut them very easily*.

[@dragnjames2190]

You could easily remove Fox, Falcon, Ness and Puff from the 64 roster and while the competitve scene would scream bloody murder for removing the former two, I don't think many people would mind if the latter two got removed from the roster at all. Ness & Puff have been on the chopping block in Melee & Brawl before, they didn't really become legacy reps until Smash 4 & Ult doubled down on the nostalgia factor of the series.

[@commandacrunch]

I think Jigglypuff and Ness are fine to cut, and I'm iffy on Captain Falcon. his series is irrelevant but if any character can make the case of being too iconic to Smash to cut it's him. Also his moves represent the original vision for Smash before it became a Nintendo crossover. Other than that I'm struggling to come up with any of the other 12 that could be cut. I guess Fox maybe, but even if the Star Fox games aren't always smash hits the series still gets new games somewhat consistently. Mario, Luigi, DK, Link, Pikachu, Kirby, Yoshi, and Samus are shoe-ins to stay. Although I could have seen an argument for Samus getting cut before we got Dread and Prime 4.

[@dragnjames2190]

@@commandacrunch I'll be honest. I forgot about Samus lmao. I've never been a Metroid guy, she always just kinda existed for me. I knew the prime series and the 2d games existed. Just never really had an urge to play them. I hope Link gets the Fire Emblem avatar protag treatment where he gets alternate skins of Ocarina and Twilight Princess in the next smash game.

[@ashen_roses]

​@@dragnjames2190eh, honestly Falcon's series IS Smash Bros. He's like an early thought for a lot of even casual fans. He's not relevant for racing games but most people with a console can recognize the Falcon PAWNCH

[@mythos6308]

Only characters I reasonably see cutting from 64 is Puff and Yoshi and Falcon if you cared about how inaccurate and dead his game is but I don’t think it matters

[@Totally-not-a-scp-employee]

When I saw you snap little Mac I shed a single tear

[@bogusWasHere]

as a mii main (all three) i assumed that we would just be an easy "yup there's three i can get rid of". i appreciate you seeing the value in them, although i understand why others do not care for them

[@LunaMinuna]

Cutting Kazyua just because he’s op is a coward move, you don’t know how Important TEKKEN as a series is, if we need to fgc it’s got to be Street fighter and TEKKEN unless you replace Kazyua with Jin then sure but like still. Ken I think still should have stayed because he is how you should do an echo but I’m not upset he’s gone. And this is coming from a non TEKKEN fan

[@FedoraKirb]

I find “let Sakurai have his fun” to be… interesting reasons to keep Dedede and Meta Knight when Kirby is already slightly underrepresented as is in the character department imo (though I’ll admit I’m very biased since Kirby is my favorite game series) Outside of the keeping Jigglypuff because OG12 (which I respect, but heavily disagree) and Diddy Kong vs King K. Rool, I don’t really have a ton of major disagreements about this roster cut (though my brother is an Ike main and I’m a Dark Pit co-main so those hurt to see…). Robin was probably the roughest cut, as was not having a Final Fantasy character, but I’m not sure who you’d cut instead based on your own philosophies. I was waiting for you to suggest keeping one Mii Fighter slot, but I guess that’d be too easy. Also, I really do think Sakurai has to cut half (or almost half) of the current roster if we want new characters and the gameplay to feel fresh. Ultimate was largely built on Smash 4’s engine (a game that is almost _ten years old_ right now), and Sakurai has said that had they not done that, Ultimate would have around a third of 4’s roster.

[@mythos6308]

Smash really doesn’t need to cut half when you can just redesign a lot of the current characters and keep it fresh that way like realistically I can see about 20 characters getting cut and in return characters like Sonic, Ganondorf, Kirby, Jugglypuff, Samus and a lot more can be drastically changed

[@FedoraKirb]

@@mythos6308 I can’t see a roster in a sequel having a scope anywhere near Ultimate unless the gameplay and engine are virtually identical. So I think if you cut about 20 characters then we can definitely get a handful of reworks (including some I’d love to see), but that also means we’re not likely to get too many new characters in the process. Lots of redesigns would definitely help the roster feel fresh, but the redesigns a lot of us have in mind are much closer to the work of a new fighters than semi-clone.

[@andimari9194]

Agree w another comment. Miis will never leave. However anyone feels about them, they’re able to be monetized w skins and costumes, so there’s no way they’re getting rid of them

[@Tiquono]

So far I haven't seen one of these that I 100% agree with, which makes me happy! I'm very surprised you kept Sora over Cloud and Toon Link over Ike. Sora because he seems a lot more out there despite being so requested, and Toon Link because why would you keep a same character semi-clone over a different character semi-clone. But I understand your reasoning. You anyways explain yourself very well. As for the Miis, I already imagine them getting lumped together into one character with more archetypes (Miitopia says hi) and more custom moves (custom normals as well as specials). Balancing would certainly be tough for that but the idea is very cool and I hope it could work out.

[@EvanMcShepherd]

thank you for keeping Isabelle, I see so many people saying there's no way in hell she'll ever comeback while villager is a guarantee and i just think.. what?

[@xolotltolox7626]

In an ideal world both of them are gone 🙏

[@henkiestudios5117]

Villager is a better choice cause in animal crossing you PLAY as villager you want the PLAYER character to be in smash and he has stuck around for way longer

[@EvanMcShepherd]

@@henkiestudios5117 avatars are lame 💅

[@henkiestudios5117]

@@EvanMcShepherd Villager is just the playable character

[@AgnerFromVsAgner]

@@EvanMcShepherd you’re lame 💅

[@jtwk3400]

I’ve seen so many of these where they cut members of the original twelve and I instantly view them as invalid. I’m happy to see you agree that there is no chance they ever get the axe

[@Cosporcos-Q]

Out of curiosity, why do you think cutting the original 12 is such a bad idea? Smash as a series has gotten very top-heavy, which is why the reboot is being theorized. Wouldn't it just make sense to go down to a much smaller roster cycling out the old as well as the overrepresented? That's just my take, tho.

[@joshuajames5707]

@@Cosporcos-Q I really don’t get the original twelve thing either. It feels clear as day to me that Jigglypuff would be among the first to go next time

[@MrAnimason]

@@joshuajames5707 She's a veteran of a video game franchise: Smash Bros. It's kind of a paradox considering veterans of other games generally make it in.

[@soveryumble7250]

" I’m happy to see you agree that there is no chance they ever get the axe" Nope. The simple fact that Jigglypuff has been up for debate twice, and that Ness was a hairs width away from being replaced by Lucas in Brawl says bollocks to that. Jigglypuff still has serious risk of being dropped past Ultimate(which hurts my soul as someone who loves playing Jiggs). If anything, he took the cowards way out on that. Captain Falcon is way safer, despite running on pure Smash fuel -his original version in 64 wasn't even really him to begin with, but the salvaged part of Dragon King, Smash before it was Smash reskinned into a suitable Nintendo character. In a way, he is the Smash Mascot due to this.

[@galacticspecter4364]

I don’t think anybody is losing sleep if Jigglypuff doesn’t make into the next smash bros game.

[@xKOSATx]

If I were to cut the roster in half, I wouldn't include the Mii fighters and Echo Fighters. Since I feel like Echoes are usually added near the end of development and Miis can either be an afterthought or DLC, which brings it to 79 total (I'm counting PT as 5 characters), so I'll have a roster of 40 characters. Mario, Luigi Peach, Bowser, Rosalina Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Yoshi, Wario Link, Zelda, Ganondorf Pikachu, Mewtwo, Lucario, Greninja Marth, Ike, Robin Fox, Wolf, Samus, Ridley, Captain Falcon Kirby, King Dedede, Olimar Pit, Isabelle, Inkling Mr. Game & Watch, Little Mac Sonic, Pac-Man, Banjo, Steve Ryu, Bayonetta, Simon, Sora

[@dominiquesnijders2655]

The more videos i see of Smash cuts, the more i think i just won't play the next Smash game because all the characters i like end up getting cut. Tough choices go brrt but it still hurts

[@frienderoo]

Cutting Banjo and Little Mac for bad movesets while keeping Toon Link and Rosalina is insane.

[@burbusburbus8782]

My biggest issue is nothing of you, but of something you said made me realize something I am a Pikmin fan to the end of my days (minus the bloom app), and I agree in theory that Nintendo would put one of their IPs in the game But in practice, olimar is currently a very faithful character and it's just not a good PlayStyle, to the point where I don't see the excitement in adding him back

[@PikaPhantomVG]

This was definitely one of the better takes on this concept that I've seen. It's something I tackled myself as early as pre-Joker (though I went down to 36 characters), and 15-year-old me made some pretty comparable decisions. I stripped the overall Mario cast down to the 8 in Brawl, omitting Rosalina, left in Wii Fit Trainer (this predated Ring Fit), Ike, Robin, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucario, and Ridley (who was at the time the Sora equivalent), picked Villager over Isabelle, and didn't keep Jigglypuff, Toon Link, Greninja, Bayonetta, Simon, or the Miis (Hero, Steve, and Sora weren't out yet). I'd definitely make some changes now, especially with the additional characters we got later, but it does hold up pretty nicely. There were a few choices you made that I do actively disagree with, though: - I don't know if I can say the Sakurai bias justifies Meta Knight's presence on the roster, even with the Kirby series solidifying itself as Nintendo's largest B-tier series on Switch. - On a similar note, stripping Fire Emblem all the way back to Marth on the basis that they can just add the newest protagonist as well doesn't sit quite right with me - especially if Alear has to be that pick. Engage's story and characters have been pretty widely criticized, and the game sits at less than half of what Three Houses sold (when it comes to the official sales numbers). A case for keeping Robin or Byleth can absolutely be made over giving Alear the nod, though if the next game can take the series to greater heights than Three Houses, this won't be much of a sticking point in my eyes. - Nintendo "adopting" Bayonetta can't singlehandedly justify her being one of the 8 third-party characters left on the roster. Even if Nintendo owned the IP, it would be the most niche series on the roster that wasn't a retro pick. Bayonetta 3 barely cracked 1 million, and while there are certainly various factors at play for this, Bayonetta Origins basically didn't chart anywhere. Considering you regarded *Pikmin* as being on thin ice because of its sales when Pikmin 3 Deluxe and Pikmin 4 have both sold well more than Bayonetta 3...yeah, I would've given Bayonetta the axe, and much sooner than you did. - There's a distinct lack of a retro Nintendo character. The closest one left in this roster is Ness, but Mother hasn't exactly been inactive - at least in Japan. Additionally, his status as a member of the Original 12 makes him feel very obligatory - couple that with him originating on the SNES and he just doesn't quite strike the same vibe. Pit's using the redesign invented for Brawl and formally canonized in Uprising, while F-Zero just had its first game in nearly 2 decades, and we last saw Captain Falcon on the GameCube anyways. While I'm admittedly one of the 3 people who'd be sad to see Duck Hunt go now, I don't think picking the retro game that wins in terms of raw sales is the best call - and the Ice Climbers aren't making the cut, either. So that leaves us with R.O.B. and Mr. Game & Watch. Both cover a very particular niche that no other character in Smash really does: hardware, with the former being a peripheral and the latter being based on an entire line of handhelds. I enjoy both characters in Smash, but I think I'd have to give the nod to Mr. Game & Watch. R.O.B. is significant as a Trojan horse that reignited the Western gaming industry, but ultimately only worked with a few games, has a largely made-up moveset, and wasn't ever all that functional to begin with. Mr. Game & Watch, on the other hand, represents a much broader line of games, is the oldest character in Smash (unless you want to count how the ducks from Duck Hunt date back to an older version of the game from arcades where they were the only visual elements and projected on a screen), represents the origins of Nintendo's handhelds (which have since come to define them, always succeeding even when their consoles faltered), and even embodies Nintendo's frequent design philosophy of getting as much mileage as possible out of older, cheaper hardware. He even carries with him a unique aesthetic to boot while pulling elements from across the Game & Watch series. And sure, Game & Watch Gallery and a few special editions have left him less dormant as well, but those have always sought to preserve the vibe of Game & Watch in some way, whether in the aesthetics of the games or with how the actual devices looked. I'd gladly swap him in for Bayonetta.

[@tylerrock7219]

Boy oh boy do I love Pokemon reps from newer gens, I sure hope nothing happens to them in yet another cutting Smash characters video!

[@pokestyn]

8:43 incineroar actually has an argument as it is one of if not the flagship competitive pokemon in the official vgc format, and has been a consistent presence. Like when the second part of Pokemon dlc was coming out and all the starters were returning, everyone was talking about how that means incineroar is returning.

[@pokestyn]

But you kept Greninja so I give it a pass lol

[@magicsnqil]

Yeah, but vgc players are a minority even in the Pokémon community

[@benross9174]

Thats like saying they needed to add Landorus Therian in Smash 4

[@tjackknife6590]

​@@benross9174Would have been funny ngl

[@dysr]

They should add CHALK to the next Smash game too then.

[@gabrielsalahi3656]

I’ve seen a dozen or so of these types of videos, and it’s literally impossible to make anyone happy when you do this but man If I had to rank these by how biased they are this is most definitely going at the top lol

[@BobbyMcKeaney]

Bowser Jr was just featured heavily in the new Mario wonder tho 🤔 I would love a bowser jr alt skin that matched his boss battle look in that game

[@Keitoded]

I'd argue you could cut Rosalina, she hasn't really been important in the series for a while now. Other than appearing in spin-offs, the only notable role she's had recently was Mario Rabbids Sparks of Hope, and that game is basically a fan game. Rosalina's basically a Waluigi at this point, if you could declone Daisy I'd honestly say she's better after being in Mario Wonder, but I think if anything Pauline would be the most likely with having a RECENT main role and being a spin-off character. So I think you can keep Ike :D Unrelated note, but I'd love to see a video on this channel of your take about adding 1 more rep to each series currently represented in Smash through characters. Maybe even a "most likely" character, and then your personal pick (plus some honorable mentions for other ideas and to add video time). Like Alear will probably be the next FE character, so that's the most likely, but maybe you really like Lyn, Hector, or Tiki. Or I think Kamek would be the next pic for the Yoshi franchise, but I'd love Poochy personally, that would be hilarious. Although you could probably skip Game & Watch and ROB 🤷‍♂️ Looking forward to your next video and whatever you come up with next!!

[@Keitoded]

When I said Sparks of Hope was a fan game, I mainly meant it was primarily made by Mario fans given general reign over the characters, but not that it's low quality or lazy or any negative associations with some fan games. Just that it's plot could be considerably more weird and whacky and pull from wherever in the franchise than Nintendo may use or not.

[@soveryumble7250]

"So I think you can keep Ike :D" Can, sure. Should? Probably not, if we are being fair: -his games almost killed his franchise -his moveset isn't even true to the character -said moveset isn't even that unique to be honest(not really his fault, but other big sword users in smash use him as a template to build from, Cloud and Aegis both being examples) The thing Ike has in spades is popularity power, and it is very much due to Smash. He smashes all other FE characters in polls easily, despite how his games sold like ass and a lot of people didn't actually play them. He's almost like a "Captain Sword Falcon" in this sense. Tiki's one of my favorite suggestions since FE really owes their Manaketes a rep, and she's the most suitable pick rather than Corrin- most consistent appearances by far, plot important ties, the first important one, the works. I really don't like Lyn or Hector as suggestions, honestly. -Lyn is pure popularity, nothing else. She's legitimately fairly unimportant in her own game, and she's even another Fire Emblem Sword character(aren't those supposedly bad?). -Hector is not even as popular as Lyn, and is just getting by on being the "Axe Guy". He's more important than Lyn, but Eliwood is the most important Lord in FE7, and Roy is more important than all three(their game is basically just an expansion on his). As much as I'm not actually a fan of her, if there was gonna be a full Axe character, it should have been Edelgard.

[@Keitoded]

@@soveryumble7250 Honestly, I know very little about Fire Emblem, I played the demo of Awakening and I own some of the amiibos. I've just heard those three are popular requests, and Ike is fun to play as, but I'll take your word for it. I don't think a character's moveset being "accurate" really matters even if it probably should, since a huge amount of characters have made up movesets in Smash, but to each their own!

[@shanegiorgio4713]

​​@@soveryumble7250to be fair, part of the reasons for Ike's games selling poorly is that the first was 2005 GameCube release (the last year it had before the Wii, and the console itself had been losing hard to the PS2 and Xbox) and had little in the way of advertising. And his 2nd was a year 2 Wii game that did nothing to appeal to the Casual crowd the system was often marketed towards (the game literally had no motion controls, not even for menus) so their failure is more so due to unfortunate circumstances rather than the games themselves (though they do still have their flaws, like every game does)

[@futureddude4250]

Those fire emblem cuts are insane cmon. Do they need 8 reps? No! That’s crazy, but 2? Fire emblem is a series that I feel should have 3-4, it’s still decently big. If it were me I’d cut lucina, chrom, Roy, and Ike since swordfighter and keep the others since they represent the other weapons of the series. Edit: Removed Ike as well, come on, it’s a long running consistently well selling series, 1 rep is mean. (This is obviously going off the idea the roster was cut in half and no one new joined)

[@HolyAlondite]

I agree with ~3 reps from Fire Emblem, even as a big FE fan. But I'd say Marth, Ike, and Robin make the most sense. Since to me, they have the most playstyle diversity (Byleth may use different weapons, but they're still just a weapon user at the end of the day. Nothing special).

[@fattymuffin2182]

he probably wouldn’t have cut them if he didn’t make the rule that he had to cut 43 total. he probably agrees that robin and byleth should stay, it’s just a product of the video idea

[@futureddude4250]

@@HolyAlonditeif it were 3, I’d say Marth, Robin, then either Corrin or Byleth personally. Roy, Ike, Chrom, and Lucina are still at the end of the day swordfighters, they have not much unique about them (besides Ike being slow), Corrin represents the dragons which is just a massive part of the series as a whole, and Byleth is the weapon triangle, I feel like you have to keep one (assuming smash doesn’t get new reps like tiki or hector to fill these gaps)

[@HolyAlondite]

@@futureddude4250 By that logic, you should cut one of Mario and Ryu because they both fight with their fists and some kicks. Claiming that there is no difference between character just because of their method of attacking is reductive to the point of missing actual differences

[@K0DA._.]

@@HolyAlonditeI partially think Byleth deserves to stay just because of how excellent their game’s sales were, but I wouldn’t be broken up about losing them.

[@toadboy4]

Most of the characters I play got cut here, I wasn’t expecting to be left with 1 Fire Emblem character, I was really expecting Ike to survive this I guess Bayonetta is the character I play the most that lived here

[@beaksters]

6:58 correct fact that sometimes these videos don’t know which makes pokemon fans facepalm when they cut greninja over mewtwo or something.

[@siisdeservice]

"duck hunt playstyle is so lame" -----> Literally the coolest thing ever, we do not take opinions from wolf fans.

[@3DOM_]

Is this sincere? Why?

[@hedgehugs]

coolest thing ever is a stretch. maybe coolest out of the zoners which isn't much lol

[@Magic_Ice]

These people think all zoners are cringe but I respect Duck Hunt a lot

[@siisdeservice]

@@Magic_Ice dh is lit bro

[@siisdeservice]

@@hedgehugs nah duck hunt is sick bro, cooler than most of the cast