The Worst of EVERY Smash Move! (All DLC Retrospective)

[@MockRockTalk]

Thanks for watching everyone! Let me know your thoughts on the updated list, it's a bit different than I've done for these "Best Of/Worst Of" videos before but that's the benefit of having a second channel. Check out "The Best of Every Smash Move! (All DLC Edition)" as well if you haven't: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rJK9k3maa6yCj5I crisisrelief.un.org/t/ukraine -Main channel: kzbin.info -Twitter: twitter.com/MrMockRock -Twitch: www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch -Patreon: www.patreon.com/mockrock -Teespring: teespring.com/stores/mockrock -TimeBolt affiliate link (excellent software I use to speed up editing on my videos, use code "MOCKROCK" for a discount): mockrock--timebolt.thrivecart.com/order-page/

[@justinnzamora5366]

Say MockRock, Do you have any plans on doing a revisit/retrospective on that 42 minute video with all those special guests? I'm curious to hear your thoughts/opinions on characters who were released after that video as well as any new thoughts on characters you talked about in the past.

[@MockRockTalk]

@@justinnzamora5366 Possibly, at some point down the road I will likely do some kind of overall retrospective on Ultimate. I don't know when it'll be or what form it'll take at this point though, it's not in my immediate plans.

[@coldgal8476]

I think first time around you actually got it pretty spot-on, but I’m pretty sure with the new buffs and nerfs this “retrospective” will be worth it

[@justinnzamora5366]

@@MockRockTalk Thanks for the response. I won't rush you into doing things. You do what you want. Please continue to provide quality content on both of your channels.

[@williamhowells806]

@@MockRockTalk take a break from all this but keep in mind a best and worst of all time. 64-ultimate. I’d love more stuff like this. Just an idea

[@co5micwaffle742]

The funniest thing about Samus' jab is that the *in-game tips* literally tell you that the second swing is awful and you're better off swinging once and then doing _literally anything else._

[@megatennepster3833]

After realizing Samus has amazing zoning, her awful jab is actually quite excusable

[@nicocchi]

@@megatennepster3833 I dunno about that, as MockRock said in his "The Problem with Zoners" video is that zoners in Smash tend to have really good "get off me" tools so they can relieve pressure and go back to zoning (which is kinda a weakness that zoners should have but is okay because it turns them into a weird close-range brawler that happens to have projectiles, which I personally enjoy more than pure zoners, but I digress) It's true that Samus has other moves that fulfill that role well and doesn't desperately need a jab fix, but it strikes me as odd and not consistent with how other zoners (or pretty much literally every other character with multihit moves which keep getting consistency fixes in patches) are designed. If you want, keep her with a bad jab, just not a literally dysfunctional one.

[@MakoShiruba]

@@megatennepster3833 You could remove the second jab launcher and have that one jab be a sorta guess game, kinda like how Isabelle SqueakToy Hammer is. The launcher does nothing.

[@lazyryan3766]

Some find snake a more annoying zone than Samus, but the up-tilt is too strong for how quick it is

[@doctordice2doctordice210]

@@nicocchihonestly that’s one of his weakest videos, he genuinely made ultimate out to be a poorly designed game

[@TheLuluBoyo]

I was actually about to argue that the Belmonts' Whip Dangle thing is worse than Plant's footstool attack since it doesn't kill or even do good damage, but then I realized you can at least actually *land* the Whip Dangle in a match lol

[@Cadesworth]

it also has some utility against low-priority projectiles!

[@thisisnotaustin1]

i would consider the dangle part of the jab and/or ftilt anyway, even tho it technically requires extra inputs

[@sunfishythesunfish1509]

Plant’s footstool attack doesn’t even kill until past 200%. By that point, F-tilt, F-air, Up Throw, and especially Ptooie should all be killing by that point. Also, you can ALWAYS air-dodge before Plant bites you. It’s honestly probably the single worst move in the game, and that’s fine for an Easter egg-esque attack.

[@mettatonex7221]

He might not have been looking at it because it might classify as a jab if you squint, since you get it by simply holding A.

[@HippityhoppityGnW]

@@mettatonex7221 forward tilt

[@TamsinV]

Who the hell argued about Ganondorf's up tilt? It's so bad he would legit be a better character with *no* move on up tilt because then you couldn't accidentally hit it rofl

[@TheTrueBrawler]

People who think the Falcon Punch and it's many variations aren't all that bad. Those people are just wrong.

[@SSM24_]

For real, sometimes I'm playing Ganondorf and am like "I should use up tilt here oh wait fuck shit I forgot he has volcano kick I guess I'll die now"

[@judoboy919]

@@SSM24_ ive done this so many times i always think i have an up tilt like terry and every time i accedentaly use it im like why tho

[@gameboyn64]

@@TheTrueBrawler brawler's is pretty good. It has armor regardless if it was started in the air that covers brawler through the hit, the move has a generous turnaround window, and is generally safe on shield.

[@benro6564]

@@gameboyn64 It's not good like at all, but it is the best of its variants. It may be safe on shield but that doesn't matter when you can just jump and punish after

[@kkss7064]

LMAO that was the first time I've ever seen jiggly's forward tilt and I've played this character at least 20 times. I was like "the hell is that"

[@brain_tonic]

She just kinda twirls… it’s barely an attack, it’s like a 4th taunt.

[@mikewebsters4119]

More like 6th, you can definitely rest or sing

[@Mike-di3mo]

​@@brain_tonicdecent for to framing and can be comboed into forward not bad

[@Cadesworth]

"That's like deciding what console to play Balan - Wonder world on" I spat out my tea. I wasn't aware canadian could be this mean

[@greedo194]

Terry fair shouldn't be in the conversation for worst, it's actually a really good poking tool that can be spammed

[@epicguardian44]

Agreed

[@waifu27]

it's also frame 7, a move with that range and combo potential and range at frame 7 is pretty good

[@BromanderInChief]

Pretty decent combo starter as well. In fairness I’d rather have the shotos or Kazuya’s fair over it since all four serve similar roles for them, but all four are alright at worst.

[@zernek9199]

Terry's fair is awful... it doesn't poke very well, is only 1 frame faster than Ryu's and Ken's, and doesn't combo as well as theirs and also doesn't kill. It's just way worse in every way and the only upside to it is its faster. It's not a good move lmao, even in Terry's kit. Terry players don't even use it that much, and when they do use it and it connects (which isn't often, btw), they don't really do anything with it. Most F-airs in the game can do *something* other than just get a stray hit, but Terry doesn't even really get much advantage with this move even on hit. Okay I just did a little research before posting my comment, and I'd like to reiterate, this move isnt actually awful, but it still should be in the convo, considering f-airs are almost always at least okay. But there is one important thing I left out: this move isn't bad on shield, especially if spaced well. It's -7/-8 on shield, which in Ultimate, isn't too bad. But my other stuff still stands, it's outclassed by most F-Airs in the game, and definitely worse than Ryu's and Ken's who just have a better one (hell, they're 1 frame better on shield). It's kinda just an "eh" move, and considering how important f-airs tend to be, this is underwhelming.

[@YounesLayachi]

Yeah, though Terry's Nair is sufficiently disjointed and faster, does a better job than fair at everything

[@Magic_Ice]

This video includes a lot of Dededepression Also dedede’s down tilt is kind of a dash attack

[@SenderBender63]

A man of culture I see( I main dedede) Id say a fair few characters have worse dash attacks than our boy but it’s understandable, it basically doesn’t function as a conventional dash attack, f-smash kinda sucks but it f*cking murders you if you get hit by it which you can’t say about some f-smashes like zss or mii gunner, toon link which I’d say are worse but what can you do ig, it’s not rly an objective thing, also down tilt is super underrated imo

[@carnelian5118]

@@SenderBender63 i pretty much agree but theres no way mii gunner is even close to having the worst f smash

[@YounesLayachi]

Is jet hammer a contender for worst down B or worst slow chargeable move ? In a vacuum it's useless, and in context of dedede's moveset, it works a little bit but could be much better. As a previous dedede main converted hero main it was painful to see both these characters take multiple top spots and runner ups :/ Still both have unique and fun movesets (and lots of juicy killpower 😆)

[@Magic_Ice]

@@YounesLayachi leagues better then Amyr. You can move with Jet Hammer. With Amyr you spend 2 seconds in place wondering why you pressed down B.

[@SenderBender63]

@@carnelian5118 meant to but mii swordfighter, mii gunner has good range but it’s not amazing but definitey not a contender for the worst

[@raghavarun9275]

king dedede also has downtilt as a burst option + range so it hurts him less than other characters not having a dash attack

[@e554]

did you not listen to the section where he says *in a vacuum*

[@raghavarun9275]

@@e554 this is me explaining why people tend to forget how bad his dash attack is, sorry for not clarifying!

[@TheTrueBrawler]

This is a big reason why, while his Dash Attack is just the absolute worst in a vacuum, it's not the worst thing in the world on King Dedede's kit in particular. It's still not particularly high up there, though.

[@cephery8482]

@@TheTrueBrawler tbf dash attack is just his replacement fsmash cause his f smash is the worlds weirdest neutral tool. That’s not a bit by the way due to it’s very low endlag and large range it’s a bastard of a move to challenge once it’s already out so occasionally throwing one out when you’ve opened up a gap in neutral threatens to punish any over aggressive players with instant death (even though it’s a bluff of a threat really)

[@kylepope1186]

For some reason Smash has a delay where Dedede throws his hands up before tripping. If he face planted right much faster and the lag was loaded on the end of the move it would be more true to the Kirby games and usable.

[@alsroop2938]

I was surprised to see that the worst up air wasn’t banjos. It does link into itself twice, but that’s due to his second double jump, which most characters wouldn’t have. It doesn’t kill, it doesn’t pressure at all, it’s not a good landing tool, it’s a multi hit that can be rather inconsistent, and it will never ever combo into anything. And on top of that, it does 6 percent.

[@ethancatlin9322]

As a Lucina main I would 100% trade my dash attack for DeDeDe’s in a heartbeat. I think the far majority of the castwould take D3’s over Luci’s too.

[@YounesLayachi]

You would take dedede's ground speed too

[@Wesley-76]

I'd love to see Lucina belly flop like Dedede lol

[@ricocarpenter2189]

I don't think so. Losing a burst movement option (even a bad one) usually isn't worth it for a two frame move (albeit a pretty good two frame move)

[@Latias38]

While id argue Lucina vs D3 is very close I think id ultimately take D3s if anything because it looks really cool and has oomph if you do land it, as well as it can kill leading it to be a......okay read if you do get it. Lucinas dash attack really feels terrible in all aspects save for its decent speed but if landing it virtually gives no reward and D3 at least does........yea D3 > Lucina/Marth

[@ethancatlin9322]

@@ricocarpenter2189 it’s not a useful burst option. Dash cancel f smash is faster. There isn’t a situation where dash cancel f smash or dash cancel f tilt would work better than dash attack. Maybe in some very rare and fringe instances. I’ll take the good two framing option.

[@TheMaxKid]

that Balan Wonderworld analogy for Ganon up tilt is one of the best comparisons I've ever heard for anything lol

[@landlighterfirestar5550]

There’s something about MockRock’s intro that just fuels my excitement for the rest of the video

[@crack4184]

Seeing characters doing cool moves in sync with music is really cool

[@benro6564]

Great content as always, I disagree with some things but overall our opinions seem to overlap quite a bit. There is more debate for this than the best moves, so hearing where your thoughts differed from mine was interesting

[@willy.b2419]

Based and Soyjak-Pilled

[@trulsarnes8277]

@@willy.b2419 + ratio

[@JulieTheGhost0]

Very Intriguing. Also funny seeing you here Cin

[@benro6564]

@@JulieTheGhost0 yo what lmao

[@origamiman5460]

Just want to say that terry fair is amazing. It has great range and has decent speed, making it able to punish lots of moves that are only safe due to their range. You also can easily combo out of it from a rising hit and it lasts forever allowing it to be a great antiair

[@MockRockTalk]

That's all true, but it also doesn't combo for that long a window, doesn't ever kill, and can't be used reliably as an air-to-air, which is a weakness almost no other forward airs have

[@andyblanton6570]

It functions well in context, but in a vaccum, it's an okay spacing tool and nothing else.

[@an3_omx]

@@MockRockTalk I'm not that good with terry, but the move HAS saved me against many zoners since it annihilates projectiles.

[@kaedenle]

@@MockRockTalk The window is okay. It's about 0 to 20 on most of the cast for jab (maybe ftilt 15 % and higher). 30% potentially on some characters. Stops comboing on everyone at around 35 to 40 because they're sent so far. But the thing I can say it's great for is how active it is. Against projectiles it can be used to trample them and approach with a hitbox with lenient timing. The weak hit can also be used to setup in tech chases. I think I saw this in Riddles' exhibition match with Moxi a while back and I thought it was a cool idea. It does an... okay job at hitting jumping opponents due to how active it is (tbh Terry has a harder time doing this than most. FH/DJ fair is probably his best non risky option to catch jumps. But it cant really challenge other aerial hitboxes) But it is also a game with alot of good fairs on characters that dont exactly play like Terry. While I do think his fair is outclassed by alot I think it has too many things going for it (how active it is, the early % combos, and the p good ranged hitbox) to be classed in the same tier as snake, wii fit, or MK.

[@jasonlobo2350]

@@MockRockTalk so giving terry an oos to combo to from 0% to 40% on hit its bad ok xD

[@CaptainL]

One thing about stall and fall dairs is that it gives the character a guaranteed follow-up from footstool out of shield, effectively a frame 4 OoS option. In that light even though ridley's is the worst of the stall and falls, I still think it would be really useful a lot of the times given your criteria I think the worst is Inkling dair, only active for two frames, tiny sweetspot, and mediocre landing lag/auto cancel window

[@MockRockTalk]

This is a fair point, I did bring up footstools in the best moves video and they're definitely a valid use case. I honestly have no idea, though, if the experimentation players are doing with them right now is going to solidify into a staple part of the meta, or if people are going to get sick of being blown up over missing tiny spacing differences/continued spacing improvements overall will outpace the option. I could honestly see it going either way, at the moment I'd definitely bring them up as a bonus use case but don't know if I'd hinge the move's performance on whether it works out of footstools or not. Inkling's still sucks though.

[@CaptainL]

@@MockRockTalk I'm generally a huge footstool believer since I use it a lot and get plenty of mileage off it with sheik's dair. Time will tell but I think it's poised to gain a lot of value in the meta especially since it deals with low profile crossup aerials super well (e.g. mythra joker and pikachu nairs) Obviously ridley's is a big step down from sheik's as a whole, but getting any punish at all on those options is a huge deterrent

[@nmi682]

Theres an argument to be made for ice climbers dair being the absolute worst. And since this hypothetical character is only 1 as opposed to the duo that is ice climbers, you got yourself a stall and fall that is relatively slow, isn't safe on shield, sends yourself in the tiniest diagonal angle that you may as well be falling straight down, doesnt kill/pathetically weak, and is hard to auto cancel since it always ends with the bounce animation at the end. Im no ice climbers expert by any means so I may be off but im surprised it wasnt mentioned. Everything said about ridleys dair applies to this move but 10x worse

[@zannax351]

@@nmi682 i assume no multi character mechanics means icies are just barred from the discussion entirely, because if it instead means essentially only sopo down air counts I have no idea how something that bad could go under the radar.

[@michaelcross7665]

Nah, ridley dair is absolute trash xD

[@MaxWelton]

22:49 the point of judging moves in a vacuum is that we’re looking for the best moves, and if we include how those moves interact with the rest of its character’s kits, we’re not judging those moves on their own merits anymore.

[@thedorklord1029]

6:30 I also want to point out that Warlock Punch works ever so slightly better in Ganondorf's kit, who... you know... is really good at breaking shields. It's a character specific thing, but it's also something that I've felt can be used to defend it somewhat if we alter the selection criteria.

[@Alibaba-id1cs]

Even then is it really gonna be that important for a move that has absolutely no case of using? Shield breaks are very unlikely especially in a match where people either get shield poked or aren’t stupid to let that break that easily. Even with certain characters being able to do it like Ganon or JigglyPuff you’d see it occur around death percent which means a normal smash attack should make it enough to kill. Falcon punch is slightly better imo solely because it can have some uses like in Mockrock’s big moves video. Certainly not the greatest but compared to warlock punch… yeah it’s somewhat usable even as an edgeguard tool

[@matthewruddy2578]

@@Alibaba-id1cs falcon punch does literally nothing that falcon can't already do. It kills later than a fully charged fsmash so it's not even good as a shield break punish. Warlock punch at least HAS A USE, which can't be said for falcon punch at all. Giving warlock punch to captain falcon would be a small but direct upgrade to his moveset.

[@mrdeadmemes]

@@matthewruddy2578 yeah, and the criteria isn't what's best for the character. it's what's best in a vacuum

[@matthewruddy2578]

@@mrdeadmemes and in a vacuum, falcon punch is much worse because almost every character has a better shield break punish, even if it's just a charged fsmash. Warlock punch is MUCH stronger, even stronger than Ganon's charged fsmash, so the only characters who have better shield break punishes are those with instant KO setups.

[@drcreed6320]

@@mrdeadmemes Falcon Punch is definitely the worse of the two. It has zero use cases besides style, and even then, its kinda corny.

[@llmkursk8254]

King Dedede's dash attack, while bad, is still a lot of fun to see.

[@megadoyourmom64]

Landing it, especially on a final stock, is euphoric.

[@DoctorNovakaine]

I mean that goes for a lot of bad moves, there's a reason people still use Falcon Punch and Ganon up-tilt.

[@lthc_hiryu]

Thought this was a main channel video for a second, that being said, I agree with your decision to put it here since like you said, the DLC fighters have consistently better movesets than the base roster's and a lot of the video would just be you repeating yourself with the only addendums being worthy if they were made as a supplement to your original video. ... Doubt that'll stop people who aren't subscribed to this channel from asking you to make a full video though lol

[@siriuslywastaken]

the whole premise of a randomized character is really cool to me, actually imagine if you randomized a character's moves and their specials were just phantom Gordo duck hunt's can and pk thunder

[@cephery8482]

Phantom gordo alone threatens to turn any hit against gordo into stacked reflection that could kill you at 0

[@siriuslywastaken]

@@cephery8482 absolutely horrifying

[@ZAPRST8879]

​@@siriuslywastaken that and with phantom

[@djjimmaster8261]

This really makes me want an Ultimate mod where every match each character's moves get swapped out for random ones/ones of your choosing. It should be possible since the Miis have custom moves and people have replaced things like taunts in the past

[@GameWheelReal]

MockRock/MockRockTalk are both channels that I go immediately watch a new video, the quality of the content in both channels are insane and I’ve only grown to appreciate the videos more as I’ve grown up. Keep it up man

[@jonathanlgill]

Would Ice Climbers have the worst down-air if it wasn't for the technicality of them being two characters? The move feels like a stall-and-fall that's awkwardly slow and not that strong. (Another benefit to Sonic's is that he can still recover offstage if it's used level with the edge-height, so it has situational edgeguarding abilities. The down-airs that continue to plummet are suicide moves if used offstage.)

[@mxtoastytoad]

With only one climber, yeah it sucks. But with both, it kills, edgeguards, and can be used for desync tech in juggle scenarios.

[@gabrielkrows488]

The recovery thing goes against the In a Vaccum criteria bc a lot of characters couldn't recover

[@jonathanlgill]

@@gabrielkrows488 Not really? It's just about whether the stall-and-fall is finite or whether you'd plummet to your death using it at stage-height.

[@endermanslayer5106]

I actually have a kinda love for Kirby’s up air and thats cause I use it more as a attack than recovery but I realized you could chain those together for some quick damage and then lay in with the side b to bring some punishment and if it was too low use a couple different attacks to add a combo then go in with the hammer then still easily punishable but can be somewhat useful when pulled off correctly

[@Kyara7]

You sound like you play like me when I first got sm4sh

[@Sercadz]

If we judge final smashes IN CONTEXT yeah, it's still sonic... but steve gets close in my opinion, since it prevents you from using blocks. Sometimes you waste your smash because you try to put a block and forget the final smash. You either use it right away or play some time without one of steve's main mechanincs. If you get final smash with the opponent at low percent, it is hard to actually use it after a combo to kill.

[@Alibaba-id1cs]

Sonic’s just sucks and the only good thing it has is that if you can combo into it, it can somewhat kill well, but it’s not much

[@lazyryan3766]

You wanna talk about not being able to use final neutral special because of final smash, shulk probably suffers the most from that, but at least his final smash can kill

[@LuigiSmashGamer]

nonononononononono Rosalina final smash will never get anyone sucked in

[@ethanmedrow2495]

I'm in the intro! Thanks for recognition MockRock. Loved this followup well. Really enjoyed hearing your new thoughts and seeing what has changed in your opinion. Keep up the excellent work!

[@ioio3197]

Hello

[@ethanroumpf8923]

I still honestly think Ridley’s dair is worse than Mac’s. Mac’s has recovery capability with it and platforms jab lock confirms. Ridley’s has so much end lag that it’s way to risky, and landing the spike above stage is usually punishable on hit. Also, Ridley’s hit box is so bad

[@TheRkyeet]

hard agree

[@matthewruddy2578]

Mac's dair recovery boost has nothing to do with the move itself, it's a side effect of the way his upB works and it works with all his aerials, dair is just the easiest since it's the fastest one you can do while drifting

[@Eterco]

And according to the Esam video, Icies is even worse. Which he forgot about in both videos. Which is a testament to how much is sucks

[@theextramenu]

@@Eterco you can combo with icies down air though. But that brings the question; do you get both icies down airs, or just one? No other characters have the combo potential they do.

[@ethanmedrow2495]

@@Eterco He didn't include icies is because it's a two character mechanic. He said in the beginning that he wouldn't be including that stuff

[@Sotako511]

For my Dedede mains out there: We are strong, our dash attack in the video is seen as bad, but truly we know it’s broken and can break shield and cover below ledge. Stay strong my brothers and keep clobberin dat dere Kirbys.

[@seansean792]

For a second I thought this was like, a complete redo and I thought "oh gosh no that's not what the poll said when I voted who made him do all that unnecessary extra work-" And then I noticed it was mockrock talk and, I was relieved 😅

[@azuquirtle]

I love how this character has sing into falcon punch as an option

[@ACobalt]

Something funny I found recently is that Hero’s u-smash is kind of unfinished. Apart from the terrible hit box that doesn’t cover his sides, his critical hit knockback is bugged, to the point that it’ll literally kill Pichu at 0% if the Pichu is on a platform.

[@k.u.5798]

They did buff Wario's jab in a recent patch, since they made it have enough recovery to be able to jab lock twice with instead of just once like before. They also increased its damage by a lot, when before the move was weak on top of every thing else. With that said though, it's still probably the worst jab in the game, which says how bad it was before.

[@alexcasi1151]

If it came out at like frame 4 or 5 then maybe it wouldn't be the worst. At least it does 12% (15% in 1v1) which is good for a jab.

[@k.u.5798]

@@alexcasi1151 Yup. Before the buffs, it did a grand total of NINE percent while also being 8 frames.

[@jonathanlgill]

Video Suggestion: a fun spin on the type of "best/worst in Smash" videos that you've been doing would be a best/worst color-alt for every character. Obviously it wouldn't have concrete numbers like how frame data does, but it'd still be fun to hear.

[@MockRockTalk]

A skins tier list or something like that has been on the backburner for awhile, you may see it at some point!

[@Electro4890]

This idea would have SO many controversial opinions tho

[@murphmariotwopointoh7714]

Calling it now, Crafted World Yoshi is on that list.

[@jonathanlgill]

@@murphmariotwopointoh7714 I love that one. If anything, I wish it had more colors associated with it.

[@ioio3197]

the very worst in in my opinion is the wool yoshi! It replaced the good black yoshi so wool yoshi can die in a hole

[@flabchunky3068]

I like a lot of the changes, including falcon punch over warlock punch and hero’s up air over K rool. But I still disagree on 2 things: king dedede dash attack STEALS games. It’s a long lasting, ridiculously powerful 2 frame option and shield breaker. Corrin’s is terrible - no payoff for a move that halts your momentum and is hella unsafe, while marcina’s dash attacks are straight up disrespectful to throw out. Also I actually think side b goes to Kirby. I’m much less passionate about this one, but hammer sucks and egg roll is at the very least difficult to punish. Also belmonts are definitely not the only one with a frame 10 standing grab, ik that Zelda’s is frame 10 as well. The other character in contention is ice climbers with a frame 8 grab but also the worst grab range in the game (Belmont’s grab range is 20% longer)

[@MockRockTalk]

You're right that Zelda also has a frame 10 grab, I don't really think of that one as a "typical" grab since it's one of the longest ones and that's reinforced by its animation, but strictly speaking you're correct and I probably should have made that distinction in the video.

[@ivrydice0954]

If you're getting shield broken by D3 DA there's bigger factors at play here then the move being good.

[@RandomNirvanaSXE]

Oooh!! I'm so glad someone in the comments mentioned Corrins terrible dash attack! I was hoping someone would! Yup! As a corrin main this move is garbage!! It slows her down! Like why?? It's very punishable. Sometimes I accidently input it when chasing down the opponent and they always are able to react and punish. I very rarely ever use that move. It's very situational. I wish they buffed it so it was the same speed as her dash is like wtf Also side note corrins grab range is hella terrible. TRex arms!!!!

[@ivrydice0954]

@@RandomNirvanaSXE Corrin DA makes the character feel even slower than they already is. They gave both final s4 DLC a DA that slows them, but Bayo's goes like 0 to 60 lmao.

[@thenoseguy]

Steve grab is slow, but it at least has range.

[@Balou_560]

I main toon link and did a little testing with his moves, his zair doesn't kill until over 900 percent when directly at ledge, and it doesn't even kill at 999 in middle stage. It does get some good combo usage as an extender and an okay poking tool, but no it's definitely pretty limited compared to other zairs

[@nxxdle_]

I also main toon link and am here to tell you you’re probably using the move wrong if you think it’s limited in what it can do.

[@Balou_560]

@Nxxdle, I Think I meant compared to other zairs, it's not like I don't have experience with using it, which Is why I mentioned it's a go to combo extender

[@sarasaland4709]

I’ve since dropped Hero. But when I mained him, I never got used to how truly nonexistent his Up-Smash hitbox is.

[@Bacchus325]

I'm now realizing I've literally never seen Bayo f tilt

[@dc49154]

That balan wonderworld analogy had me rolling lmao

[@LexSchilperoord]

I love Piranha Plant's back air, but I absolutely agree it has unreasonable endlag and is only active for a measly 2 frames

[@iknowwhereyoulive618]

it can two frame tho🧐

[@thehuman2cs715]

Yo it's Smiley Fakemon 😳

[@Gingerbreadley]

DDDs forward smash is actually the worst anti air in the game. They forgot to add the damage values to his sour spots so if you jump into the move and get hit by them because they have priority you take 0% and can easily land and smash attack ddd. It’ll also sometimes do 0 shield damage to someone above you on a platform.

[@ihaveseenthings0]

My assumption is that the 0% hitbox is suppose to send opponents into the sweet spot, like a multi-hit, but Dedede is such a poorly programmed character that I would understand if this isn't the case.

[@Gingerbreadley]

@@ihaveseenthings0 it could be a wind box that doesn’t have a direction instead of a hit box with no damage. But because it has higher priority once you are hit by it you have immunity to the sweet spot damage.

[@ltggibbs5126]

Mockrock never fails to deliver, thank you for the awesome videos my guy, keep it up!💯

[@Eclipsmon8421]

I am surprised you didn't bring up Kirby's side special, because there are quite a few people who think that move is worse than Egg Roll. Personally, I don't think so, because at least you can use it as a shield break punish, but now I feel like there are going to be people replying in the comments. I would also say that I find what you said about comments on Piranha Plant's back air very interesting. In the best moves post DLC video in fact, I saw quite a few comments that did the opposite of that: bringing up a move that should be on the list, but not explaining why it is better than the moves in the video. I don't know, it's interesting.

[@TheTrueBrawler]

You might not be aware, but Yoshi's Egg Roll is so bad that it's arguably the worst move in the entire game including all those "Big Moves" (these ones at least have the use case of being able to punish a paralyzed opponent better than any other moves in the game). Mock Rock kind of skipped over that section of the video where he explained why, so to quote him from the other video... "Egg Roll does virtually nothing. It takes over half-a-second to start up, is useless for a recovery, deals the same damage as a lot of tilt attacks, doesn't combo, doesn't kill, takes forever to wind down..." I've heard a lot of Yoshi mains say that it would be a buff to Yoshi if he had no Side Special at all because that would mean messing up an off stage B-Reversed Neutral or Up Special doesn't mean certain death. Yes, Kirby's Hammer Flip is bad, but to even compare it to Yoshi's Egg Roll is an undeserved insult.

[@josephtpg7329]

Kirby side B can also set up shield breaks but it’s very specific on how to do it.

[@Eclipsmon8421]

@@TheTrueBrawler I totally agree with everything you say, but I'm just saying that there are people who would say that. Also, I wouldn't say it's too big of an insult, because outside shield break punish, Hammer Flip is also virtually useless. Egg Roll is still worse though

[@Mr__Jack]

Honestly, Plant should’ve just been immune to footstools. Footstools are niche to begin with in both casual and competitive play and you can’t defeat plants with a jump in the 2D Marios. I appreciate the reference, but it’s a little too niche. A character that is immune to footstools is cool simply because footstool set ups don’t work on them, even if that’s pretty niche.

[@king_alloy]

Agreed niche but a few characters do make great use of footstool OoS as a great option, Steve and Falcon come to mind. It makes up for a lacking traditional OoS option by using essentially the jump itself as the OoS option. Honestly it would be hilarious to see a Steve player go for footstool anvil only for it to fail against a crouching Piranha Plant lmao.

[@LIMEminus]

The Balan Wonderworld joke had me DYING

[@cringemist8322]

As a Bowser main, I would take D3's dash attack over mine every day of the week

[@citrusthepenguin]

Hey! Puff main here, and I wanted to give some thoughts. -F Tilt really isn't that bad of a move. It's fast, relatively lagless, combos into fair at low percents, and most notably 2 frames at ledge, although there are other moves that do this as well. It's stubby and doesn't kill, but neither does Bayonetta's, and at least Jigglypuff's F tilt isn't a multihit. -Her down tilt isn't great, but it's not awful either. Decent range and sends at a nasty angle at low percents, but that's really all it can muster. I don't think I've ever seen an Olimar use their down tilt much either, but that one's pretty fast so it's a toss up between the two. -Personally, I don't like judging moves in a vacuum because what makes most moves good is how it interacts with their kit. Of course Mac aerials are gonna be bad, they're intentionally made bad because of his strong ground game and fast frame data. Obviously Sing isn't great on it's own, but Jigglypuff has the tools and strengths to make Sing not as awful of a move as it used to be. It deserves the bottom spot under your criteria, but I feel like moves like Mythra Up-B, Kirby Up-B, and Villager/Isabelle Up-B are worse overall. Great video, though! Keep it up! ❤️

[@jonathanlgill]

Villager / Isabelle's Up-B covers so much distance I think it's fine that it isn't an attack.

[@citrusthepenguin]

@@jonathanlgill Yeah but it has no hitbox, the balloons can be popped, and there's other up bs that go farther while doing damage and serving other purposes.

[@graou]

Yep, but if moves were judged in context, the strength of the characters would HEAVILY influence the ranking, and the Best Moves videos would be filled with top tiers and the Worst Moves with bottom tier, which imo is waaaay less interesting, and would not give justice to moves like Inci's dtilts or Snake's Fair.

[@jonathanlgill]

They're not great but they're not the worst in the game. I think it's pretty clear someone like Dr. Mario, or anyone with poor air mobility, would appreciate the large recovery range. I'd take that over Sing/ Final Cutter. If it's a character with really good edgeguarding tools, Balloons would let them go very deep for edgeguards and still return.

[@citrusthepenguin]

@@graou but the thing is that incin has great moves all around and snake's fair works best when it's on his kit. Characters can be good but still have mediocre kits, like Sonic, while characters can be bad but have really solid kits, like Incin.

[@jomapumapu]

For your situation with throws, I think you should consider the grab, pummel and throw as one move. Makes them feel more like one move

[@floriangoetz5117]

I think the ICs dair is pretty bad. Their “stall and fall” is slow and can be easily beaten by so many uairs and other moves because the opponent has time to move around and hit the ICs from the side or above.

[@ivrydice0954]

Honestly fair statement.

[@alessandrogalli2572]

Additionally, it lacks the sheer power that Ridley has, and it doesn't even spike

[@JustTryHard_Juth]

also, for some reason it doesn't fall when you buffer it out of hitstun.

[@ivrydice0954]

@@JustTryHard_Juth TBH That's better for icies so I think it's a cool detail.

[@mxtoastytoad]

With only one climber, yeah it sucks. But with both, it kills, edgeguards, and can be used for desync tech in juggle scenarios.

[@ShinxBOOM247]

5:42 the thing about this very minor niche for Jigg's Dtilt is that it's not even a particularly good niche in their kit specifically because Jigg's also has Dstrong, which fulfills almost the exact same niche while having higher knockback to put opponent's in even more awkward positions while also being about as active and safe on shield

[@Mike-di3mo]

Ngl everyone of puff moves besides up throw and maybe rollout are useful and it's the same for down tilit

[@snakkattakk]

I'm a bit confused about how you didn't notice Isabelle's grab, it's a pretty big hitbox but it's literally the second slowest grab in the game for no reason. It leads to a massive flaw in her gameplan where she can't effectively deal with opponents shielding

[@FransenYT]

Very happy to see my misspelled comment in the intro lmao great video man. Thanks for making this one too

[@amaze_z1953]

I feel like Banjo's up air and dair are contenders for the worst of each. Banjo's up air is similar to Hero's, but with a very slightly bigger hitbox, and worse combo capabilities. Their dair is similar to Ridley's, but has a more consistent spike hitbox in trade off for a worse sour spot. I'd definitely say it's worse than Sonic's, since it has way more endlag.

[@graou]

Endlag isn't really in consideration, both are really niche moves that are going to get punished anyways, and Banjo has a better reward and hitbox who could potentially make him trade/win interactions, so

[@Mr__Jack]

Banjo’s Up Air actually has a huge hitbox. The problem with Banjo’s is that they made it do like 6 damage for some reason. If the move actually did damage, it would be an amazing juggling tool.

[@jmann531]

@@Mr__Jack as a banjo player I agree with the damage thing. I think the move overall is okay because falling up air combos into fair,nair,or bair but does little damage which stinks.

[@ivrydice0954]

@@graou Sonic's auto cancel window is bigger than Banjo's.

[@graou]

@@ivrydice0954 maybe? But it's especially good on Sonic because of spindash and spincharge, it's kinda useless otherwise because Banjo has a small landing hitbox

[@crinsombone5380]

I think Jiggly Puff's Rollout should honestly be considered for worst neutral special

[@samuelungar6528]

Outside of Ganon and falcon, It probably is. It's just that those two are so bad it's hard to even consider anything else.

[@lavistalimited4747]

Unlike Falcon/Warlock Punch, Jigglypuff's Rollout at least has the vaguest hint of being a recovery tool. Kinda, not really, it still sucks in that department, but it's still more than what those moves can do.

[@Mike-di3mo]

It isn't really that bad, It kills it can be used to tech chase and is really fast

[@dtp2630]

I actually think Sora should at least be an honorable mention for down air. The only real use sora gets out of it is auto canceling it when he’s high enough, but the average character will never reach that height. When you take that away get you get a stall and fall that isn’t very strong with an inconsistent hitbox.

[@Blockoumi]

Really? I find myself using it a lot to edgeguard and it seems pretty hard to avoid with its big hitbox

[@jonathanlgill]

But it (kind of) covers a large area when the opponent is recovering low.

[@dtp2630]

@@jonathanlgill In that sense it’s basically Kirby stone without the invulnerability or kill power

[@jonathanlgill]

I guess so (but Sora's is still pretty strong, isn't it?) But Down-Bs are all-around better than down-airs, so relative to the rest of the dairs I wouldn't list Sora's as worst. That said I don't understand the move all that well. At a glance though it looks more useful than Ridley's.

[@SSM24_]

The move is gigantic, has some kill power, and has a landing hitbox. I wouldn't call it an _amazing_ move (that inconsistent hitbox does really hurt it) but I really disagree that it deserves to be in serious contention for the worst.

[@graveerror4048]

As a Hero main, I completely agree with your assessment of his up smash. It only connects out of d-air and is abysmally slow. But regardless, landing that crit is so satisfying it’s ridiculous.

[@vilegoblin]

Ridley main here and I would like to thank you for confirming that he possesses the worst Dair in the game. If they just added a landing shockwave like several other dairs ( ZSS has one for some reason?? ) it would be vastly better. But with an unreliable spike hitbox ( weak spike at that ) poor kill potential for it's janky launchboxes, horrendous landing lag, and usual death offstage unless you jump before using it, it's generally never used. Sonic's at least has low landing lag, but is definitely a strong contender in a vacuum.

[@CaptainDCap]

ICs DAIR is worse than Ridley's. It was just disqualified from the competition due to the rules.

[@vilegoblin]

@@CaptainDCap Which is why I didn't mention it?

[@CaptainDCap]

​@@vilegoblin You claimed his dair is the worst in the game. It's not. That's all. Have a nice day.

[@ellie8272]

Little Mac's down air jab locks. There are genuinely characters who'd rather have a consistent tool to jab lock opponents on a platform above you as opposed to a stall-n-fall. I could honestly see Joker wanting it.

[@squirtleislife1312]

Honestly Mac is probably one of the characters to benefit the most from it with so many moves that send at a good angle for platform tech chases, and even then if you go watch peanut he usually covers that with up smash more often

[@ellie8272]

@@squirtleislife1312 Yeah but Little Mac also has like, a top tier up smash. Characters like Marth or Snake don't have that utility. (Not saying it's better than Marth or Snake dair but those characters would definitely rather have Mac dair than Banjo dair)

[@graou]

nah, a fall would still be better to get you out of disadvantage in general, while mac's dair is veeery specific and require certain tools that the majority of the cast doesn't have access to, + a lot of characters would probably rely on other better jablocks, so sacrificing an aerial for this is too specific to work I think

[@squirtleislife1312]

@@ellie8272 snake and marth have both up tilt. Snake is dummy strong and marth can't get much of a jablock like that since there's no spacing for tippers (and lucina doesn't benefit much either). All characters have some sort of platform pressure and tech chase option, mac's dair is very niche and gives up what could be an actual, useful move

[@ivrydice0954]

@@ellie8272 Snakes landings are like really limited outside of grenade mixups. Being able to fall with a hitbox can at least mess with your juggle timing and he can recover from the move better than Banjo can so he might even use it better than Banjo.

[@RohanJoshi910]

I just realized you can't even land Piranha Plant's footstool attack as a *shield break punish* 😳

[@mario-nk7be]

Two years down the line, with footstool oos becoming more prominent, i do wonder if there's a dair that gives less utility than the stall and falls when considering footstool oos

[@mrmediocre848]

So long as the character has a 3-frame jumpsquat and people don't have aerials they space with often. Plus, they might have a better OOS option elsewhere, but that can vary

[@rojobalob]

Wario’s f-smash is about 10x worse than dedede’s. His is less strong, less safe, does less damage, less range, has no real use at all. Only shield break punishing (dedede’s is one of the best shield break punish moves in the game). Dedede’s is safe if spaced properly on quite a lot of characters and is quite good for ledge trapping. It’s niche but useful in specific situations.

[@megatennepster3833]

It is crazy how Wario has some of the best moves in smash (up tilt, forward tilt, waft, nair) and the absolute worst (jab, his smashes)

[@thundernut9654]

I was thinking the same thing but I didn’t wanna defend my character twice lol

[@rojobalob]

oh yeah, also Ike's f-smash is just a worse version of dedede's.

[@rojobalob]

@@megatennepster3833 yeah such a strangely designed character.

[@ricocarpenter2189]

@@rojobalob Ike's F smash starts sooner (Frame 31 vs Dedede's Frame 40), has bigger hitboxes, and its sweet vs sour spots aren't as bad as Dedede's

[@riiddisbuk2496]

Fans: Thoughts on side special? Mock Rock: 19:55 Me: I cant, LMAO

[@bubzy3d50]

Literally the only time I've ever successfully used Yoshi's side b is when my opponent goes onto a platform and forgets it has the jump, it is that untouched of a move and is 100% the worst move in the game. In my opinion at least.

[@santajohnsduraorduraclause4678]

Sonic final smash is so bad that I’ve seen Kirby use stone to get through. You know it’s bad when a final smash is completely destroyed by a simple normal move.

[@mattguy1773]

I wish Nintendo still supported smash ultimate after its dlc run

[@jonathanlgill]

I think a lot of the DLC characters in this second wave have proven too powerful or too unfun to play against. The competitive scene has some great narratives going on (Spargo now seriously threatening Leo's dominance), and I just think more overpowered DLC would lead to a worse metagame. I do wish they'd still release some balance patches, though.

[@ohkoxar]

dude, jiggly's final smash is busted on stages where you can go underneath the stage. It covers the ENTIRE STAGE if you're in the right position.

[@kadabraguy9846]

Honestly something you didn't mention in the fsmash discussion is Dedede's horrendous sour spots. The sweet spot takes up so little space and the sour spots barely do anything. There's even a 0% sourspot near the top of the hammer's arc, but I suppose you could argue that's not super impactful. Regardless I agree that it's worse than Snake's, even if I love to throw it out lmao

[@guacodile2528]

Bro king Dedede f-smash sour spots still kill at like 80 so it's not like it does nothing

[@kadabraguy9846]

@@guacodile2528 there are multiple sour spots on F smash, the one you're referring to is the one right beside Dedede. The far away sour spot (which is the one that usually lands) doesn't kill Mario in the default FD spawn until 260%. Plus, given that the move has nearly a full second of start up and that sour spot is basically inside of Dedede, it really isn't that good lmao

[@guacodile2528]

@@kadabraguy9846 I was talking about the hitbox on the handle, maybe your talking about the splash hitbox idk

[@kadabraguy9846]

@@guacodile2528 yea I realized that after I made my comment, I edited it to address that but ig that was after you saw my original comment

[@NoneNullAnd0]

You are so wrong about Dedede dash attack. It stays out really long making it easy to 2-frame with and has enough knockback to guarantee a kill against any character at ~35% with the 2-frame (there's a lot that will just die at 0%). Also, it beats the various dodges (covering multiple at once due to its size/moving hitbox), punishing it with knockback a lot harder than what many characters can do. Marth's dash attack is only useful for catching landings, does virtually nothing, and is extremely punishable. Just because a move is unusual doesn't mean it's bad.

[@poweredvoltage3213]

Mockrocks brain: Move A:very safe on shield, strong, kills stupidly early, no ending lag, combos, generous disjoints on the hitbox, Frame 3 Move B:very unsafe on shield, weak, never kills, so much ending lag, never combos, hitbox doesn’t line up with the animation, frame 2 Mockrock:Move B is so much better then Move A and it’s not even close

[@ivrydice0954]

🤔Wuh?

[@notgood1321]

I remember luigis taunt that's also a spike, it's pretty funny and I'm pretty sure people don't use it too often.

[@aronspiker72]

2nd video in a row I'm mentioning some of ESAM's opinions, but in this case I think he might have a point. For down air, you're clearly never using Ridley's unless you have a gun to your head in real life, while Mac's does give him a slight recovery aid of sorts (I don't know the full details myself), so that is 1 positive of the move compared to Ridley's score of -1. ESAM put Mac's as the 3rd worst Dair behind Ridley and IC. (I know you aren't counting IC bc they are a duo character but their Dair is basically the same as Ridley's except it doesn't kill or have a spike hitbox whereas Ridley at least pretends to spike and does kinda kill). Also pre-patch IC had basically the equivalent of Mac's back air for their dash attack and it did get buffed in the last patch but I don't know if that buff mattered at all, and they were ineligible from the start bc of the duo rule anyways. Also would the Belmont's chain twirl count as an input move bc I consider that to be even worse than Plant's footstool attack as it doesn't even kill at 300% and makes their rapid jab less safe bc they can't hold the a button to buffer the jab at all bc of the chain twirl, but I understand if you count that move as a type of jab.

[@nxxdle_]

you should stop listening to ESAM

[@aronspiker72]

@@nxxdle_ Trust me, I know ESAM has some very... quirky opinions, and the first time I mentioned him I was talking about how he thought Game & Watch had the best up air, and I noted how I don't necessarily agree with that myself, especially in a vacuum; but his take on the worst down airs might be somewhat valid. This might be the Ridley secondary in me talking as I absolutely despise the fact that his down air even exists in the first place, but I just don't think his Dair has any value at all, both in context or in a vacuum, it's one of those moves that you're more likely to kill yourself with rather than your opponent, whereas Mac at least 1 definitive positive aspect of his Dair which in a vacuum I would think makes it better than Ridley's. Also the stuff about IC dash attack and Belmont's chain twirl have nothing to do with ESAM'S videos, they were just my own observations playing from those 2 characters.

[@graou]

The dair recovery for Mac isn't about the move, just a property that every characters have that Mac main uses because they don't have anything else. The only argument for mac's dair would be jablock, but it kinda suck at it and most chars would have access to a better option, so basically useless For DA, like he said for marcina, even if the reward isn't good, it functions like a dashattack, it's a movement option that covers a large aera and is fast, while ddd isn't and trades basically the burst option of many chars for something niche that they certainly already have

[@thevenomoth3455]

100% mac had a better dair than IC’s imo it gets a bit muggier with ridley though

[@Shuriport]

Ridleys down air, outside of being a killing stall and fall, is also an option out of a footstool and is still a landing option. Little mac down air gives you... a tiny boost in recovery that no other character would really need outside of mac and ganon, and a jab lock on platforms, which is very very niche

[@itsrrraven]

yknow i was one of those "lil mac nair is not actually bad" guys due to the uses that lil mac ABSOLUTELY gets out of it, like the fact that you can drag down with it and go immediately into a strong ground attack, and the jab lock, and the fact its so fast, but i started trying to find a move that does less and yea i got stuck. have to agree with you this time around. (i still think the move is fine tho which goes to show how good nairs are)

[@HarveyVolodarskii]

Just a weird question, but was the Belmonts’ held jab ever in contention for either the jab slot or the special input slot? It’s extremely laggy to both start up and finish, does nothing but block weak projectiles, can’t be used to ledgetrap, do damage, or pressure shields, and (due to its input) forces you to mash for rapid jabs rather than the held button method.

[@MockRockTalk]

Yeah, that'd be an input move. It's BAD (disappointingly), but if you really wanted to try and hit someone with it, you could. Piranha Plant's is pretty much never going to work unless your opponent actively cooperates with you lol

[@matthewruddy2578]

@@MockRockTalk you mentioned in a different comment about the potential for footstool OoS to become more prevalent, I find it funny to think that future plant players could aggressively land and crouch near a shield to punish footstooling, kinda like a more disrespectful version of a tomahawk.

[@kestrel7493]

@@matthewruddy2578 that is one of the best ideas I've ever heard

[@gerhardhofer7505]

I'm really surprised that Dash Attack didn't go to Robin. It slows the character down from their run IIRC, it goes very little distance, has a pretty small hitbox, I don't believe that it kills consistently without Leven Sword

[@ripwaluigi5234]

Idk how mockrock can value such shitty dash attacks as corrin's or marth's over one of the best 2 frames in the game. Mockrock claims that dash attacks don't really have a replacement, but there being few f tilts that fulfil the roll of a burst option is just straight up untrue? SO many characters have an f tilt that can do that. Even still 2 framing is very important in this game, and there are many more at least decent burst options than truly great 2 frames like D3's.

[@YounesLayachi]

Dedede's side tilt vastly outperforms his dash attack in all dash attack aspects

[@graou]

Because the vast majority of people would rely on a dtilt/dair/ftilt etc to 2f in general, and a unrewarding burst option is way more usable than one of the slowest moves in the game, because characters generally rely more on Dashattack when they need a burst option

[@ripwaluigi5234]

@@graou D3's dash attack kills absurdly early and does the job really well, and most characters don't have that for their 2 frame moves. While almost every character has some other move to replace dash attack as a burst option (turn cancel f tilt for over half the cast does literally the same thing). It's better to have 1 burst option and multiple moves for a scenario which fulfil specific roles (being safe and fast, killing) than having two that literally do the exact same thing.

[@graou]

​@@ripwaluigi5234 nope ftilts rarely fulfill a burst option role in their character because of their startup and range which isnt the same as a normal dash attack. DDD's DA is indeed a great 2 framing tool, but it's replaceable by literaly any other one seeing how the vast majority of characters doesnt overly rely on 2-framing to edgeguard, and it's completely unusable everywhere else, while the two you cited ealier at least are actual dashattack (burst option with a travel, large hitboxes and antiair capacities), that just don't have a role to play in their character due to them having great ftilts out of dash.

[@ripwaluigi5234]

​@@graou I mean if you don't accept that about f tilts, ignoring how pivot cancelling adds a very large amount of range and makes most f tilts hit further and faster than most dash attacks, idk what you want me to say. That's just wrong? Over half the characters have an f tilt that can do the job (both standing and pivot cancel allow them to do the job in most scenarios, only a very specific range are they usually slower, which is so minor it's not really a problem, just try not to stand at that range lol). btw that thing about 2 framing and edge guarding is also untrue for most characters, have you ever actually watched pro play? 2 framing is used way more than edge guarding due to it being safer, with edge guarding usually being done AFTER a 2 frame for a free kill. So all the benefits of d3's dash attack for that have corrin's shitty dash attack. What I said earlier applies to most dash attacks but that range where corrin's dash attack is literally zero, swordie f tilts outrange it and most stubbier ones are fast enough to where you can use the frames saved compared to using corrin's f tilt to go further. It's so unbelievably bad in every attribute along with that (damage, safety, kill power, etc...). The average dash duration is 10~ frames, and you can pivot f tilt the frame after. With corrin f tilt, we're talking having a horrible move that is faster at one specific range than most f tilts by like 5 frames. In comparison to: having literally any other dash attack in the game, including d3's, which annihilates some recoveries if you are within a very lenient time window (like cloud's, samus', mario's, etc...) and wont lead to you getting knocked offstage usually if you miss time it.

[@finlaywilliams4746]

For stall and falls you missed ice climbers, it doesn’t really do anything outside of their move set

[@CaptainDCap]

ICs were disqualified from consideration because of their double character trait.

[@LilMrPizza]

Personally I'd actually put in an argument for Pac-Man beating out Ganondorf for worst up tilt. Pac-Man's has no horizontal hitbox, meaning much like Hero's up smash, you can't hit a grounded opponent with it. But unlike Hero's up smash, it has pretty much no kill power, and it's range is pathetic in comparison. It's only practical applications are that it hits through lower platforms on Battlefield, and gives Pac-Man a small amount of combo potential. But along with that already being niche, characters with slower up airs would probably lose that combo potential. Meanwhile, as bad as a move as volcano kick is, it does hit below the ledge, and even though it's not a great 2 frame option, it is a trait of value regardless of the character.

[@visitinggoat6696]

That still doesn't seem as 💩 as ganon tho. No one is ever landing that 2 frame without sheer luck. Your basically inviting a punish/free recovery when u use that move.

[@MockRockTalk]

Pac-Man is one I kind of regret not mentioning since it came up last time as well, but I disagree, as bad as the move is it's still ultimately a combo starter anti air. Granted, one that needs your opponent to be directly above your head, which almost never happens, but if you're determined to land it I'm sure you can pull that off a lot more than you'll ever land Volcano Kick on a decent player.

[@Blockoumi]

At least you can do crap with it. It’s a combo starter It’s a combo extension Anti-air And it hits characters on platform Up-tilt to up-air is basic but can sometimes kill

[@cullenhutchison6528]

Terry fair is actually really good. It has decent range, is very active, and can combo pretty well even if you don't hit it while falling.

[@ihaveseenthings0]

I agree. Terry fair is a surprisingly great combo/landing tool

[@gengarisnotinsmash...]

I would like to make a passionate argument on easily the most important category in the video: final smash. Rosa final smash literally never kills. I've seen her hit it on someone at 130 and it did literally nothing. Not to mention it isn't the easiest thing to hit either. You might be able to combo into it, but it still does ok damage at best. At the very least, sonic can usually guarantee a few hits and could maybe read an air dodge to kill off the top at a reasonable percent, something Rosa can't claim, which is really bad when the entire point of a final smash is to kill stupid early to bring the game into your favor.

[@ihaveseenthings0]

Remember when Rosa's final smash did +150% in sm4sh?

[@petery6432]

I have absolutely no idea what the heck you are talking about in regards to kill power. I've hit the meter version on a heavy who was at 70 before the final smash started and he died from it. The person you were watching must have fallen out at the very last second, which can happen. This and the fact that you can't always place it right on a person certainly weaken it, but the idea that it never kills is bogus.

[@TheBriguy1998]

I'm surprised how much of this list I disagree with, so I thought I'd give my my own list and some reasons behind why it differs. Jab: Wario. Yeah, this one's the same. But I will mention that Samus's isn't a close second at all. Everyone seems to hate this move because the second hit doesn't combo, but it's honestly one of the best jabs in the game. In Ultimate, most jabs are quite unsafe on shield and do 12 to 15 at most on hit. Samus's is only -10 on shield, the safest jab in the game, not to mention the second hit can reliably anti-air if you predict someone will jump out of shield to try and punish it, and is safer than most jab's final hits by 10 or some frames at only -16. The first's hit's low endlag makes up for the low damage on hit with a grab mixup, which depending on the available throws and tilts, could lead to much more damage or a kill. Ftilt: Hero. This move is very unsafe, is fairly slow, has poor unimpressive range, and doesn't have much reward for hitting it either. Puff's is faster and MUCH safer (-7 compared to -21), not even in the running for second worse for me. Meta Knight and Ivysaur come to mind for me as runners up. Dtilt: Ivysaur. While much faster than Puff's, it offers practically 0 reward on hit, and is terribly unsafe if shielded. At least Puff gets a low angle on hit to set up edgeguards and tech chases and is fairly safe to use in general (only -10 on shield with decent range). Puff''s is slower and has less range, but but using slower moves to can't an opponent spotdodging, teching or landing isn't too uncommon. Uptilt: It's hard to argue with Ganon here, but at least the volcano kick can occasionally make an opponent on ledge panic, do something stupid, and get killed, but I don't know when you would ever want to use Banjo's uptilt. It's slow, only hits above you unless you are very close, is terribly unsafe on shield and offers little reward on hit: 12% seems nice until you realize its often negative on hit at lower % and doesn't really kill well at all. Neutral Special: Falcon. Nothing much to talk about here, it's definitely the worse. Dash Attack: Link. This move is so slow you're better to run up and use a smash attack; many of them would be safer on shield or kill earlier, or both, maybe cover a couple tech or roll options, or could be used as a timing mixup against a parry/spotdodge happy opponent. Link doesn't have a dash attack either, and though Dedede's has most of the same failings, at least he gets a strong 2 frame option with his. Fsmash: Ike. Not as slow as D3 or Snake, but still very reactable at frame 31 and EXTREME unsafe at -36 on shield, compared to D3 and Snake at -18 (which can be made even safer with charging). There is practically never a good time to use this move. Dsmash: Ivysaur. A bit more range than Wario but considerably slower at frame 13 (compared to frame 8), with very little reward on hit (low damage and kill power) and also very unsafe on shield (-24 at best). Wario's may be more unsafe, but you're still probably eating a smash attack if Ivysaur's is shielded, and at least Wario's is pretty quick and has good kill power, giving it niche use. Upsmash: Hero. I do agree with this one too, and many of its failings that you mentioned are also reasons why I favor Banjo's uptilt as a contender for the worst. Surprisingly the rest of the video I agree with perfectly, except for upair. I think that, though they are similar, Ridely's upair is worse than K. Rool's and Banjo's is worse than Hero's, and of the two I'd say Ridely's is worst.

[@perturbo4253]

Comment to boost the algorithm

[@PasteryPow]

for input moves, it would be simon/richters whip spin (done by holding a after jab/ftlit). honstly, probably the worst move in the game. It doesn't/isn't: -kill -combo -good tool in neutral -fast -inconvience your opponent -large -hard to avoid -cheese -have good priority -have good range -*A GOOD MOVE*

[@peacockkae]

Personally, I'll never understand the case for K. Rool up air as I think the opposite, I think it's one of the best up airs in the game and that it's lag is warranted to balance it. I'd prefer it over a combo up air because of its kill power, speed, enormous hitbox, stalling, and the most underrated and forgotten aspect, the threat of it. Especially in a vacuum, a lot of characters would destroy with this move because they could combo into it, K Rool can with dair and it's a kill confirm cause of it. There's a reason K rool doesn't have moves that launch you straight up without lag or a niche command grab. Cause if he did, up air would be so much more broken.

[@iknowwhereyoulive618]

what are you smoking, man. i mean it's a decent up air imo but it isn't even CLOSE to being one of the best, because of the lag. while it would likely be broken without that lag, it is a huge detriment.

[@graou]

... It's slow and small. Why would you think it's better than any other uair in the game. Like, really. What moves are worst and less useful. Why would you trade a juggling tool, an anti air, or a combo extender for a niche kill option. Why.

[@peacockkae]

@@iknowwhereyoulive618 Why is Palu up air considered one of the best up airs in the game? Cause it lasts a long ass time, is disjointed, and kills but you can only do it once out of a jump then you'd have to land before doing another cause of their lag, just like Krool. And just like Krool, you CANNOT challenge this move while trying to land otherwise you will die. Let's compare Palu's even more. Both are the size of the moon while Palu's is a bit wider, Rool's pushes the hitbox vertically up more, Rool lasts 13 frames, Palu's active for 15, Palu has 14 frames landing lag, Rool's 13 frames landing lag and Rool is a faster faller meaning he can throw another up air out sooner than palu could in terms of getting back to the ground faster. And of course Rool's is stronger, killing around 5-10% earlier depending on distance from the top blastzone. I don't see how this move could even be considered one of the worst in any stretch of the imagination.

[@peacockkae]

@@graou Frame 7 is slow apparently and calling it small is hilarious. Also it does anti air and juggle, what? There are also kill confirms into it.

[@drcreed6320]

@@peacockkae The difference with palu is you can autocancel the end of the upair as a dragdown into a grab, or on a platform, into a drop upair. Its wayyy faster, juggles, is wayy more disjointed, and kills.

[@dcmag2020]

I would argue Ice Climbers down air is worse than Ridley’s. Even if you count the double hit it’s slower and doesn’t kill as well.

[@jojorock6908]

I think Pacmans up tilt should have at least gotten an honorable mention. Gannondorfs still sucks and might be the worst, but pac man's has no range, dosent kill, and has no sort of potential for combos.I think Pacman definitely gives Gannon a run for his money

[@Seba20901]

1:56 is strange to mention Pit's up throw as a bad throw, since is Pit's most damaging throw and puts oponents in a horrible position where can be juggled very easily with Pit's up air, which is an excellent juggling tool

[@colingamer5073]

In a vacuum.

[@Shuriport]

Meanwhile... down throw combos into up air up to at most percents, which makes it do more damage and have better kill power and juggling potential... Did you think that one through?

[@imnotsher]

im ngl the balan wonderworld joke made me laugh more than it should have

[@toadboy4]

Middle level Kirbys wouldn’t agree at all for up special or down special

[@aidenzorn8322]

I wouldn't put Plant's bair at second worst because even though killing is standard for bairs, it is absolutely one of the strongest in the game. It kills mario as early as 84% at the edge of FD, which is almost unrivaled for disjointed bairs: especially ones where you don't need to line up a sweetspot. I would argue that Hero's bair is worse since it doesn't even come close to killing as early with the reduced end lag being fairly irrelevant since you're going to be using one of your other aerials for edgeguarding if you have either of these on your kit.

[@MaxWelton]

I found it funny and relatable that Wario’s jab was so bad you forgot to roast it

[@2centstudios]

Wii Fit's fair is awkward for sure, but it's not so unintuitive that it's in the discussion for worst fairs imo. It's one of the most underrated moves in Ultimate when you consider all of it's utility.

[@GreatUncleJulio]

I don't know if Wario's jab can be considered the worst now, at least on its intended character, considering Glutonny showed you can use it to jab reset hit confirm into Waft as a kill option.

[@zentendoxn8955]

So now, the ‘worst moves wheel’ character would have Wario’s Jab, Jigglypuff’s Forward and Down Tilts, Ganondorf’s Up Tilt, King Dedede’s Dash Attack and F-Smash, Wario’s D-Smash, Hero’s Up Smash, Olimar’s N-Air, Snake’s F-Air, Piranha Plant’s B-Air, Ridley’s D-Air, Hero’s Up Air, Ganondorf’s Warlock Punch, Yoshi’s Egg Roll, Byleth’s Amyr, and Jigglypuff’s Sing.

[@Mike-di3mo]

Nah puff forward tilt is just budget kirbys so it's still good peaches is the worst f tilt also this was made 2 years ago

[@mrmediocre848]

The worst aerials are Little Mac's, those were just the runner-up worst aerials

[@LuigiSmashGamer]

And worst up b shouldn’t be jiggs it should be Kirby

[@LuigiSmashGamer]

@@mrmediocre848except down air

[@TaleOfTheToaster]

I'd absolutely argue Sonic has a better down air than others like Sheik and Banjo because at least you don't have to die for it, the lower lag lets you both recover and shield upon landing, it's not great but it beats out a lot of the other stall and falls at least

[@layelaye]

Hi, I'm subscribed to the main channel and it took me MONTHS before finding this one. Maybe you should put a little advertisement on the main sub for this one

[@yanma5681]

Little Mac's nair is actually not that bad, as it can pull someone up if you time your jumps and attacks well, the timing isn't harsh and is really easy. Anyone with a fast up-b or anything a like that kills, is helped quite a bit by that move.

[@FaljeLazuli]

"What's the point of judging this in a vacuum?" Same reason we don't really care about tier lists based on how well they do against the Shovel Knight Assist Trophy.

[@Shuriport]

Arrogant of you to assume i wouldnt watch that

[@evanwirth7881]

As a Little Mac main, I do HATE being stuck with that up b for recovery, but I will still agree, it’s fairly powerful, and you do see it come out as a kill move every now and then

[@ebaystutz2636]

I don’t think K rools up air is bad. It is easy to combo into out of crown and helps stall of the ledge to throw off opponents timing.

[@calvintabor5734]

As a bowser main I think Bowsers dash attack is so abysmal. Better using dash grab or run up and throw out a tilt in practically every scenario