MODEL BOILERMAKING AT BLACKGATES ENGINEERING

[@jcameron2554]

Great video Keith, and thank you to black gates for allowing you access to show their manufacturing techniques. It's a bit of an honour and shows your status in the steam hobby world ;) It was most interesting to see as until now I hadn't realised how dual flanges in plates were formed. Thanks for taking the time on this vid :) regards one happy viewer ;)

[@manxman8008]

Thanks for this - I'm trying to make a small boiler and was thinking of casting brass - this is much better!

[@keithappleton]

Glad it was helpful!

[@mdwdirect]

BBC needs to hire you to narrate documentaries. You are vocal gold.

[@keithappleton]

I await the phone call with anticipation :-)))))

[@WayneJohnsonZastil]

Maybe he does not want to read fake news haha

[@raincoast2396]

Finally a behind the scenes peak at model steam, basic component construction. Thank you Keith and THX to Blackgates.

[@JIARF]

That was very interesting. I always assumed that they stamped them in much the same way that they do for sheet metal for cars, and maybe heated it up first for the thicker stuff.

[@StonyRC]

Another window into the black art that is steam engineering - Keith, you are the "Gandalf of Steam"!!!! Many Thanks.

[@JamesPetts]

This is fascinating. This boiler work is clearly extremely skilled and labour intensive.

[@amanco45]

Thank you so much for all of your videos! An absolute treasure!

[@keithappleton]

Glad you like them! {:-)))

[@MrNigel1340]

Thanks Keith, this has answered the question I asked you the other day about the gauge of copper needed to make my large Tich boiler, you are lucky to have such a nice bunch of people selling Model Engineering parts so close to you, this has also given me ideas for making the bucks to form my own boiler, regards Nigel.

[@keithappleton]

and they do Worldwide Mail Order too :-))))

[@longcaster]

Amazing Keith, thanks for the behind the scenes look at the hard work.

[@RaymondOreFineArt]

That was very interesting, I'm amazed at how thick the copper is, raw materials must cost a fortune without the labour

[@stuarthardy4626]

Raymond Ore Fine Art yes pricey it an under statement I had a boiler made for a 5 inch g class 4 tank about 10 years ago £2500 😳

[@ejparrott]

Cost me £1900 for a Lion boiler last year, and that was TIG welded so cheaper than a Traditional Silver Soldered boiler, you did well!

[@patrickwhitehead7584]

I was wondering about that. I don't know anything at all about boilers, but why not weld it? Copper can certainly be welded faster and cheaper than what this must cost.

[@MegaBoilermaker]

@@patrickwhitehead7584 Copper can be metallurgicaly difficult to fusion weld.

[@joedempsey8316]

Thank you Kieth, that was very informative. I didn't know the flame should be a large as that and the work involved in flanging, well thas an eye opener. I will still build a boiler kit of that size for my 5"narrow gauge loco I am building but appreciate when it comes time for the boiler to shop around for a kit including the pre-formed parts.

[@steamboatmodel]

I never build enough of one design boiler to use metal formers maybe one of these years. I always use hardwood formers you can get a number of parts from one and they don't hurt as much when you drop one on your foot. You should try doing one Keith the forming can be as soothing as painting.

[@thepunk4hire359]

As usual "I DID" find that useful, and a usual I thank you for it! :-)... I'm would also say thank you to blackgates for allowing you to show us the information. A testament to your patronage.

[@P61guy61]

Thank you for opening the inner sanctum. Great video

[@robertgordon5562]

I enjoy all your videos. Great job. It's fascinating to see how much work is put into all the parts.

[@Mcbunaen]

Wow! Super interesting. Thank you all!

[@mikewalton5469]

the forming work is astounding.

[@johnkinnane547]

G'day Keith I found that very interesting, as you said when you see one made you can understand why the cost is hight, and it has to meet the boiler codes. Once again Keith thank you for showing the video . Kind regards John Kinnane Patriot member.

[@MichaelLloyd]

Fantastic insight into great craftsmanship

[@jake2213b]

That is skilled workmanship.

[@gh778jk]

Always good to see how the grown-ups do It Paddy

[@Tocsin-Bang]

Only ever made one boiler, and that was forty years ago. I hated flanging, and I only had two plates to do, it was a small vertical.

[@BryanTorok]

A fine video. I would have thought that the parts would be stamped by hydraulic press, similar to car body parts but on a smaller scale.

[@Revoku]

quite like the production quality o that, interesting content that was an advertisement, but formed in such a way that it was still heavily interesting and worth watching

[@keithappleton]

It wasn't meant to be an advert at all, I was just showing a couple of interesting things that I saw when I was there - the oil cans are excellent - I bought another one, a larger version of the one I bought years ago :-))))

[@andrewpearce2562]

Keith Appleton and who cares anyway? It would be totally justified. Gosh people, relax... these are hard-working, dedicated people who deserve any exposure they can get.

[@Spiderelectron]

Another great vid - thanks again!

[@Gauge1LiveSteam]

Excellent video Kieth. Thanks for doing this. Does Blackgates make complete boilers too? I hope you can make a video of the silver soldering process too.

[@keithappleton]

Thanks ........ Blackgates Engineering don't make the boilers these days, they just make the boiler kits

[@dalelathwell7219]

What grade of copper is used for the boiler and are the boiler tubes seamless?

[@tobyw9573]

Very interesting, I had never heard of letting the copper turn black before quenching.

[@Tater1337]

I never heard of quenching for annealing, hardening yes

[@Grrymjo]

A stupid question: is it possible to do the same operations on a stamping press? Like, in less than 15 minutes?

[@manxman8008]

Thanks!

[@rhavrane]

Bonjour Keith, Great job which requires a great skillness. However, I am surprized because it would be much easier if Duncan used a 20 ton press as I saw one in a French model steam manudacture. Is there a reason why Duncan does not use a press ? Amicalement, Raphaël

[@keithappleton]

I think that they prefer the more traditional method - hand made things are good ........ and 20 ton presses are very expensive as well as needing a lot of space that they just don't have . . . .

[@steamboatmodel]

Doing the dies and plates for press work is a bit different then the formers for had work. I don't think there would be enough volume for them to invest in duplicating all the formers for hand work to press work. Now if you were starting out with only a few designs a press and small CNC lath and mill would be the way to go.

[@Bartyron]

5:01 Flangeformers,...boilers in disguise! Great tutorial! Thank you.

[@brandoc1950]

Would Duncan's hammer be a Thor #1 hide and copper hammer? I have one, but I think it will be a long time before the copper head on mine looks like that.

[@keithappleton]

I am not sure which one it is - I will ask him when I next see him :-)))

[@hberg321]

Two techniques come to mind that seem simpler, but I've never done this sort of thing so these ideas must not work -- else they'd be doing it. Half-baked idea #1, set up a large and powerful clamp. Set the outside formers sitting on the lower jaws of the clamp, warm the copper, place on top of the formers. Place the inside former over the copper. Then tighten the bee jees out of the clamp to force the inner former into the outer former, making a copper flangewich between them. Would this be too prone to getting off center and having thin walls on one side of the flange? Or is this perhaps too much pressure on the copper in one go and risking a fracture? Half baked idea #2 being - can you melt the copper and pour it into a flange shaped mold? I'd offer all the US pennies I have cluttering up my house to the cause and be glad to see the back of them (their buying power is far below their nuisance value and any bill to eliminate a coin with Lincoln's bust is DOA as long as Illinois is a state) but they're really zinc with copper veneers at this point. Henry

[@ejparrott]

Cast copper has significantly lower tensile strength, so you'd have to up the plate thickness and staying to compensate, massively increasing the cost

[@drawvenmusket]

I thought I saw a boiler end being made ... I did I did see a boiler plate being made now I see another good reason for being a supporter of Keith Appleton's on Patreon I got to see and discuss this video with Keith a few days ago it was almost magical So I would suggest that all viewers go over to Patreon and pledge just $ 1.00 a month to help support Keith and help keep these great videos coming. Now after saying that I want to say that Keith will keep making his videos, and posting his videos for free, weather he gets money through Patreon or not because He is a great guy and he likes doing them too have a good day and a better tomorrow

[@keithappleton]

Thank you for this comment, I appreciate it :-))))

[@kerrygleeson4409]

thanks Keith

[@paullubliner6221]

Would there be any issues of using a cast silicon bronze throat sheet, back head etc. wrapped with screwed in place sheet copper and then all fusion brazed in an autoclave?

[@keithappleton]

Sorry, I have no idea, I do not build boilers. The thing I would be concerned about over time is the coefficient of linear expansion between dissimilar metals, and doing it the conventional way seems to me to be simpler option . . . .

[@paullubliner6221]

​@@keithappleton They're not exactly "dissimilar" and coeficients of expansion aren't an issue on steel shelled boilers with copper tubes. As for investment casting tube/throat sheets etc., that is a far simpler and faster way to generate the components than creating the forming tools (even in oak) hammering and repeated heat treating ad nauseum. The old "Little Engine's American" had a sand cast silicon-bronze fire box with copper tube front section. It works fine.

[@machiningbasics1729]

Was that a burgess bandsaw on the bench? Great video

[@keithappleton]

Yes and it is identical to mine :-)))) I have the same model - a great little machine.

[@Phantomthecat]

Very interesting indeed - thanks.

[@davidtaylor6124]

Thanks, a good video. I have just finished making the plates for a Belpaire boiler in 5" gauge and don't recommend it. I wish I had seen this video first though as I did use a ball pein hammer and as you say it isn't ideal. It leaves a really bad finish on the flanges.

[@ejparrott]

I use a wooden mallet..cheaper to replace! I quite like making flanged plates, definitely a winter job though, keeps the workshop nice and warm

[@bobloblaw7879]

great video - thank you!

[@keithappleton]

Glad you liked it!

[@juliehoschler7151]

Thank you

[@andymandyandsheba4571]

excellent enjoyed very much

[@evilcanofdrpepper]

well that was a cleverly disguised commercial you have crafted there, I almost didn't notice. but your love for the little company was too strong to be genuine.

[@keithappleton]

it's not an advert. The owners of Blackgates Engineering are friends of mine - I have known them for many years - about 40 years to be exact. Blackgates Engineering is a small company and they are very dedicated people. I also buy most of my model engineering items from them . . . . no "cleverly disguised commercial" at all - it is completely genuine and as they were kind enough to let me video the boile plate flanging process live - a plug for a couple of items that the sell was the least I could do :-))))))

[@jamesburns0657]

Wow! Who knew? C'mon Powerball Lottery, come to daddy so I can buy one or two of these!!!

[@memadmax69]

Wow, very nice.

[@pgs8597]

I suppose you need to balance the cost of purchase over the time and effort to make formers then make the parts, either way us old blokes will have a heart attack, very enjoyable,thanks, Peter

[@dodgydruid]

Been trying hard to lay my hands on a small table top lathe round here in darkest Dorset, being on disability means I can't afford the crazy prices people are asking for just spares and repairs although I missed out on a £40 very ancient Drummond lathe with all the tools and motor plus a range of chucks and tail stocks (I kicked myself hard on that one but I did say to the seller it was worth far more and someone bought it for £200), ppl keep telling me to go for one of these aluminium X extrusion thingies from China but they look cheaply made and can't see them standing up to much although I do like the innovation in you can rearrange it from a lathe to a mill, or a jigsaw or pillar drill but would rather find a spares and repair and get it right myself lol

[@jcameron2554]

Ian Watson It depends what you want to machine, I saw an adept watch makers lathe sell for just £40. With a 3 jaw chuck and a few cutting tools and chuck. The adept lathe is small, so if your wanting to make a 5" loco you'll need something bigger! But for a small steam engine upto around 3/8" bore you should be ok to machine bar stock with light cuts. There was one with built into a cabinet with motor and quite a bit of tooling for £60 So they are around. The adept lathe would fit onto a large kitchen chopping board to give you an idea of size.

[@patmancrowley8509]

The mate's soft copper hammer seems to have worn down enough so that the actual head piece is through the copper. Bet that'll mash up the copper!

[@keithappleton]

luckily he doesn't use that end on the copper - he only taps the steel former plates with the copper end . . . .

[@patmancrowley8509]

I really should observe things a second time before I get my fingers to wiggling on the keyboard. I have now noticed that the mate is using the hide side of the hammer on the copper. I thought that he was using the copper side so it really doesn't make a difference. He's using the copper side to hammer the steel form through the hole. Sorry about that! I bought a pair of tennis shoes from a drug dealer the other day. I don't know what he laced them with but I was tripping all day. :-)

[@tobyw9573]

I think they use big burners like that to burn vegetation as an alternative to herbicide.

[@tobyw9573]

Why not a single tube boiler ? You can make one out of an old 55 gal drum and maybe 100 ft of small A/C or water tubing and some firebrick. Water tube boilers are safer too, I think. Perhaps the art and craft of making a big assembly of fat tubes and copper plates is more important. Mechanical arts are a good way to study history. I bought a pre WW I copy of Machinerys Handbook in a used book store. Worthwhile purchase. It had a handwritten note in it including the national anthem of Siam, LOL.

[@tobyw9573]

Not that you would ever consider using an actual 55-gallon drum for that purpose.

[@tobyw9573]

Ah, Sweet Pea is a steam engine. I guess that explains the design and adherence to traditional design. How did I miss that?

[@tobyw9573]

I guess if this copper forming could be done in a press or with rollers they would be doing it that way.

[@godfreypoon5148]

Before anyone asks - no, you can't use a bunnyboiler.

[@davidhyer3404]

I'm surprised that a hydraulic press wasn't used. Impressive

[@godfreypoon5148]

I, too, prefer to steadily work my way around when it comes to banging away.

[@ApicalisHD]

How come the oil cans are in german writing? Is it just because they are so damn simple that anybody who buys themalready knows what they are?

[@keithappleton]

I think they are probably made in Germany ..... :-)))))

[@ApicalisHD]

... -.- Of course i know they are made in germany ^^ But usually imported products have packaging etc. for the specific country with the fitting language. That what's made me wonder

[@keithappleton]

Yes I realise that, I was just being my usual stupid self :-))) I don't think that they need to double up on the packaging Language as it's only an oil can - a really really good oil can at that .....

[@RobB_VK6ES]

More likely the makers never intended the item for export but BG have recognised a superior product and directly import it.

[@jcameron2554]

Apicalis Gaming its an oil can??? If you need help when using them the German for oil is öl sort of o i l but as is often found in engineering, it's done slightly different, the "i" been horizontal instead of vertical :)

[@steamsearcher]

Now Another supplier has begun selling so called KITS in the Flat?? Which is no use whatsoever!! The first thing you would then need is a Bandsaw and some planks of Hardwood for a 1 off!! I have used MDF but worked in a Woodshop with extraction!! Copper and Silver are always hammered so that the metal has time to stretch or compress! spinning tends to thin the metal. David.

[@christianhimmes8721]

High quality does not come from UK..... starting by Imperial measurments..... and end with fish and chips......

[@AA-69]

🤡