Monitor-side Chat - June 2021 - 'Series' games, OCS, and rules complexity

[@markriley5966]

Excellent video Steven. Since you asked, in series game systems, I far prefer those like OCS, GMT's EFS and GCACW which have a stable basic rules book and then a supplement for each game. I find the other type where there is one rule book but its slightly different for each game, like Adam Starkweather's CSS series, faintly annoying. On your impending journey into OCS, first, you will have no problem grokking the system given that you can deal with WiF. Second, like WiF, the rules are well written and clear and there are tons of players who will answer rules queries on line. Third, like WiF, OCS is very difficult to play well. Fourth, and here's the bad news, like WiF, OCS is exhausting to play. I respect OCS as clearly a very cleverly designed system so it is as satisfying as it is exhausting to play. So, here is the obvious advice, start with a smaller game like Sicily II or Smolensk or start with small scenarios from one of the bigger titles, all of which believe it or not do have small scenarios so don't be put off from getting them. What really counts is the number of counters - if you are moving SPs and units and having loads of combats each turn you will need the staying power of a rhino. Final point, you will find as a newbie that attacking and taking ground appears to be impossible! That is because OCS requires you to have the right number of SPs and in the right place, the right choice of air and artillery options, the right sequence of move, hipshot, overrun, combat, exploit, combat to make real progress. However, relief is at hand. Get yourself a copy of this article by OCS grognard Chip Saltsman, read it and ideally play it. Good luck! www.ocsdepot.com/images/contentfile/Vitebsk_Introductory_Scenario_Ops_Mag_layout_2.pdf

[@stevendolges8372]

Excellent advice Mark I appreciate it! I will take a look at that article. I have also started reviewing an article covering Reluctant Enemies I found and may try to set-up the games alongside to walk through the article in deep detail.

[@przemekbozek]

16:00 You bring up a very good point that causes me to actually not like playing a lot of the series - I find it easier to learn a new system from scratch rather then remembering all small changes between the games. I really prefer to have consistent "overall" rules and have some small scenario-specific changes

[@michaelrobertson3369]

I like your monitor-side chats and have listened to the last couple all the way through

[@TheWood005]

OCS and GBOH are two heavier series where I have found the additional effort required for learning is well worth the effort. Both are fantastic.

[@stevendolges8372]

I already really enjoy GBOH for sure!

[@przemekbozek]

30:00 A good question on which way I prefer - I actually "go around" the problem of re-reading a huge rulebook each time by creating the rules re-write. It takes me a while to get into a new design, but it's way easier to re-learn it later...

[@WARdROBEPlaysWWII]

Monitor side - nice

[@apostateant]

I don't have a preference really between the two types of series though I will say the ones that fall into core rules + specific tend to be bigger commitments on average, at least of the ones I've played. Simonitch's '4X games, The Dark/Deadly series, COIN tend to all be smaller than all but the smallest OCS/Next War. For me what I can actual get on the table and played is usually the deciding factor at any given time. I can read the rules without taking up space for a couple weeks so the shorter games tend to get some preference (I do own 9 OCS games and have or have P500d 4 NW games so not like it's hurting my acquisition of them). I will add that I tend to prefer either type of series to completely standalone games, it gives a nice frame of reference for how the engagement/theaters/etc compare that distinct rulesets can cloud somewhat.

[@apostateant]

Also, thanks for this and your other videos. Really enjoy them (even if I don't comment :) )

[@yml33t]

Yes! Just like you I am frustrated by the OCS introductory games (or ASL's!) being out of print. No way I am going to pay 3xMSRP for them. To top it all, seeing MMP re-posting videos AAR/reviews of these two modules in their feed is just adding insult to injury. Are they trying to drive sales in the secondary market?! A P500 for these games would be fantastic.

[@pm71241]

The OCS rules are not that complex (a bit less complex than WiF) But I think it's mostly due to them being rather well written. ... at least up until the Naval-rules. I think the OCS rules could even be simpler if they had not regarded DG, reserve, exploit as "modes", but just markers. It seems like an artifact of some old thinking. In reality only combat/move/strat-mode are needed as true modes in the system. The complexity in OCS not in the rules. It's in translating knowledge of the rules to actual sensible moves. ... it will hit you when you've set up and try to decide what to do. Somewhat like in Chess. First of all - you need a plan. Since you're effectively playing 2 games at once: The supply game and the movement game. And they need to come together at the right time to be effective. And while supply is usually always in short supply ( :) ) ... there's just so many ways to do the movement and the attack that figuring out the optimal way can be hard. Should I overrun? Which units and in which order? What needs to be done with plain combat? Do I need barrage first? Should I instead try to make the main objective during the exploit phase be releasing reserves? Do I have the supply to fuel those units at that point? It's not just moving some units close the the enemy and making the attack like in many other games. Even WiF-deluxe with all it's additionally ways of combining special units in an attack does not come close to the conundrums you'll get faced with when choosing how to attack in OCS. So - don't expect a simple, just-do-moves, and see what happens game. You'll need to reason about how supply/barrage/overrun/reserve/exploit will need to be combined to actually take the hexes you need. PS: I like to think of OCS as a game which seems to be I-go-U-go, but in reality just achieves the same limitations on "activations" as, say, chit-pull games do, by having the supply situation determining what can be activated when. So instead of having the randomness of chit-pull determine the activations, it's your skills as a supply logistics manager which determine it. And you rarely have supply for everything everywhere.

[@stevendolges8372]

Well written Peter and I appreciate your perspective on this. I certainly get the sense OCS is 'dense' in the decision making space, which is good. Thinking through the proper application of straight forward rules can be better than obvious application of less-straight forward rules. I'm looking forward to breaking ground on OCS for sure. Do you have a favorite?

[@pm71241]

@@stevendolges8372 As one of my local opponents just wrote to me moments ago when we agreed on playing Sicily-II: "They're all good". I think it depends mostly on the circumstances. Your ambitions, the number of players you have (some larger games are better in teams) and the skill level of the players. Reluctant Enemies is surely the easiest - but replaybility value is not so high as the others. For the smaller games, Sicily-II is nice since you have a whole "campaign" on 1 island and you can manage to play it in reasonable time (like "Justegarde" just showed). But it very asymmetrical with the Axis being on the defensive all the time. In that sense Tunisia-II is nicer since the initiative and advantage goes back and forth a lot. Fantastic game.

[@pm71241]

So ... it's not so much that I "prefer" one kind of "series" over another. I have nothing against reading rule books (and I've probably spread myself a bit wider than I can manage to remember the rules between plays). However... I have had to "stop" buying Simonitch's '4X series (which is an excellent example of a "pseudo-series"), simply because I find it harder to remember details if they are too similar to each other without being exactly the same. I really like the games though... but with the frequency I'll get them to the table, I'll just mix the all up every time. To explain, ... (being Danish) I have it the same way with learning Norwegian and Swedish. The languages are very similar, to the point of being mutually intelligible, but there are small important differences both in vocabulary and pronunciation and I just find it harder to learn these languages, than, say French,... because the many similarities makes it harder to remember the differences.

[@stevendolges8372]

I can understand that challenge. The Dark series can be a bit like that on some rules, but thanks to distance in time it hasn't been too bad. I may need to watch for stuff like chit limitations in Deadly Woods not being in Dark Summer.

[@helenaconstantine]

You talk about problems with leaving boards set up for more than one game and so forth. Surely Vassal is the answer for that.

[@helenaconstantine]

The vassal module and rules pdf of Case Blue are also free.

[@helenaconstantine]

As far as owning the game to use Vassal, you yourself point out that the publisher is making it impossible to buy Case Blue.

[@TheWood005]

Maybe you are burnt out on Korea, but the OCS Korea is not a bad place to start. The map is large, but there are not a lot of counters. Due to the limited transportation network, your decisions are usually pretty clear cut. Also, there is not much in terms of the air war. My big complaint with OCS Korea is the way the Chinese intervention and victory conditions are handled. But I still think it is not a bad place to start.

[@AdamH75]

Besides your Third Winter pre-order, which OCS titles did you find and have on the way to learn the system?

[@stevendolges8372]

Thanks to a small unexpected windfall as of today I actually have a lot more coming that originally mentioned: Tunisia II Sicily II Baltic Gap Reluctant Enemies Smolensk Burma Beyond the Rhine Blitzkrieg Legend Hungarian Rhapsody I tried to get all I could due to scarcity. Would like to get Guderian's Bltizkrieg II, Case Blue, and DAK2 to complete the set but those are pretty pricey individually and hard enough to find to begin with. I may have an opportunity to get GBII though.

[@AdamH75]

@@stevendolges8372 Wow going all in then - good luck! Beyond the Rhine I just picked up (knowing there’s a forthcoming Normandy link up game) and pre-ordered Third Winter. Looking forward to content and commentary for those as I familiarize myself with the series. Have to agree that a similar p500 system seems so obvious for MMP. Pretentious one print runs of clearly desired games seems like a very strange business practice. They’re paper and cardboard, not something that will become rare archeological artifacts.

[@helenaconstantine]

If you do an OCS game I would much prefer to see one of the East Front ones over Korea.

[@stevendolges8372]

I am for sure getting The Third Winter so that could be the one!

[@pm71241]

Good luck with your endeavor into OCS. Justegarde just did a playthrough of the Sicily-II campaign in a well condensed way. That might serve as a model. kzbin.infovideos PS: The level of "redundantness" for the older games vary a bit. I wouldn't say that Sicily 1 is made redundant by Sicily-II ... they are kind of 2 different takes on an OCS implementation of the campaign on different scales. Some still prefer the 1st ed. Burma2 is basically just a straight up reprint of Burma1. Tunisia-II is more like what you'd understand of a "2nd edition": Basically the same game, but with a lot of changes from being revised by another dev-cycle.

[@helenaconstantine]

Have you ever looked at the Europa series?

[@stevendolges8372]

I have investigated it recently and bummed to see it is no longer actively supported or in print. I have come across some pre-owned copies at stores but never picked up. I understand there is a following for the games

[@helenaconstantine]

@@stevendolges8372 "I understand there is a following for the games" You must be trying to perfect the art of understatement. Yes, the copy-right holders in Colorado betrayed us and killed the series (up-dating to the game system was never even attempted). Nevertheless, the games remain. The Eastern Front games--Fire in the East and Scorched Earth--are so superior to something like the Dark valley, it can hardly be put in words.

[@stevendolges8372]

@@helenaconstantine well I can only hope the series gets put into the hands of a functioning publisher. I think the East Front games of that series are operating (no pun intended) on a very different scale than TDV so it might be hard to compare them.

[@pm71241]

@@stevendolges8372 My guess would be that if you're really into Europa (and tired of waiting for "Total War") the natural progression would be TSWW series from Diffraction Entertainment. ... - a game which scares me more than Case Blue.