Mormon Swinging? Ex-Mormons Take You Into The Hot Mess of MomTok Drama

[@teamarie123]

It’s so funny watching this years later when Jordan was talking about Taylor saying “is she just trying to get a reality tv show” knowing they just made “The Secret Lives Of Mormon Wives”

[@UniqueLibra1981]

I have always told myself I would not ever be intrigued by "pop culture reality housewives" I was recommended Tyler Bender's Mormon Soda video, MLM's, Lobotomies and BOOM Mormon wives and new side of KZbin unlocked ex-Mormons spilling the tea. Never say never smh.

[@larsvontrash]

1:00:32 "is it all for a reality show?" i come from the future to tell you your prophecy was correct

[@JordanandMcKay]

She’s a prophetess

[@LittleHerdaz]

Me- I really don't care what my family is up to, I don't wanna know about their lives. Also Me- Wow this Mormon family I have never met is super interesting *eating popcorn* 😂

[@azurastarfire]

McKay: "I don't understand why other people's sexuality is a joke." Thank you! I really appreciate that comment, man.

[@linzrojo]

The thing that’s mind boggling is most that are in would be more shocked , appalled and unforgiving about what consenting adults are doing than the church covering up child sexual abuse .

[@c.l.888]

The church does not cover up child sexual abuse. Some people in the church might have done that. My husband was a bishop and he personally had to turn a man into the police a man who came and confessed to abusing his children. It is church policy to always protect the victim.

[@ard45387]

@@c.l.888 the church, as a power structure, covers up shit tons of abuse. Just because a few Mormons do the right thing doesn't mean the church as a whole does not have its problems.

[@taytay8157]

@@c.l.888 just because your experience included a good person, doesn’t mean it’s that way for everyone. A lot of churches and families cover up child abuse. I’ve heard Catholic Churches begin their service by announcing to a room full of adults that p******lia is wrong as if we shouldn’t all know that already.

[@Tootietoottoot40]

Prove it

[@linzrojo]

@@Tootietoottoot40 you can google , there’s KZbin vidoes about it take your pick do some digging and research . When you’re ready .

[@BlessYourHeart254]

Are they what happens when the mean girls in high school grow up?

[@beekneed]

...or when they don't grow up

[@samanthaschultz6082]

Yes

[@ethanstump]

Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional. Just ask my sixty year old white supremacist father.

[@MotherOfBaggins]

They’re what happens when the mean girls peak in high school.

[@Katiethewizard]

The main thing that bugs me is that mormonism is so deeply ingrained with homophobia, slutshaming, victim blaming, purity culture etc. that people who subscribe to the beliefs think that they can just be "fun and quirky" doing things like this while sentencing everyone else to hell

[@Kimmie9553]

Mormons sure have a great way of justifying their own doing of forbidden behaviors (eg soaking lol)

[@lynnemcnab1500]

Exactly. I lived I through Mormonism, baptized at a young age, and left because of the extreme hypocrisy. My whole family was chastised under their breath but were the perfect families in front of others. Unfortunately my sister is still involved.

[@ard45387]

That is the only problem I have with this

[@livylu6287]

That’s just about every religion. 🤷‍♀️

[@amberlinmchugh8115]

And the audacity of making someone "clear your name" after making these swinger innuendo videos ? If you don't want people to think your a swinger don't make these videos. Crazy

[@christyrussell9940]

Omg. I love you guys. I was raised Lutheran. and I guess what I love the MOST about you, is you understand the rules, and do NOT suffer fools. Hahahaha. You wanna be “Mormon”? Follow the rules. You don’t get to pick and choose. Bravo.

[@raising__her5545]

Omg!!! Did you see the announcement of secret lives of Mormons wives on a trailer? You nailed it

[@beccagoth]

not me coming back to this after hearing about a Hulu announcement???

[@3vaniamaria]

Jordan and McKay are livestreaming it starting this Friday!

[@beccagoth]

@@3vaniamaria say less

[@3vaniamaria]

❤​@@beccagoth

[@mariafrmdaBX]

It came across my feed!! But I already heard about this!!

[@TexasbyStorm]

My husband and I used to be swingers. My husband has never been mormon, I was. Clearly not anymore. Some of our very best friends were swinging friends. None of us do that anymore, but we all still cherish each other. We haven't been swingers for 12 years, so it's far off in the past. I know some people think bringing other people into your bedroom can ruin a relationship, but for us it taught us that we both truly didn't want anything else. We just chose to sow our wild oats together instead of destroying our relationship to find ourselves. No regrets!

[@JordanandMcKay]

I love your perspective so much! We don’t often hear from people who have been on that side of things!

[@angelina3087]

If you're all consenting adults and respecting each other's boundaries, that's all that matters!

[@ashlieghdeeble9112]

I can understand that esp getting married young and missing out on important years. Swinging isn't for me but I get what you explained and cool that u shared so openly.

[@cookiesandbussies1577]

it's interesting that swinging brought you to that realization, of all possible outcomes.

[@kadygirlforever]

@@atrain84 I know a married couple who met swinging. They left their original partners for each other.

[@longlivebeans]

Thank you for separating polyamory from religious polygamy. I can’t tell you how much time I’ve wasted trying to explain the difference to people who just stare off into space the whole time lol.

[@meanbean6011]

Lmao I know this is a joke, but if someone's eyes glaze over they're just not interested in what you're saying lol.

[@WatchList-xf8ic]

The problem is that-thanks to all of the “reality” TV shows featuring polygamist mormons-many people unwittingly believe the lie that mormon girls/women choose their husbands when, in reality, girls and women are traded like currency and will marry whomever they are told to marry…or be “damned”. There is no choice in mormonism, especially for FLDS women and girls. Even mainstream mormon youths often marry young to avoid falling into temptation. As a result, they often may marry someone whom they otherwise may not have married had they waited 5-10yrs to marry. Maybe not arranged marriages, on paper, for mainstream mormon youths, but the pressure of chastity often dupes them into marrying young and stupid.

[@alexandramurray8018]

Just wanted to let you guys know that I’m a high school teacher, and today I plugged my laptop into the projector with KZbin open and this video was in my recommended….everyone laughed at me and I’m afraid I’ll never live it down.

[@JordanandMcKay]

HAHAHAHA I’m sure your students loved that so much 😂

[@moo_jessye]

Aren’t schools closed today because it’s Memorial Day?

[@Lolzadoodle8484]

@@moo_jessye maybe they're not in the USA lol

[@alexandramurray8018]

@@moo_jessye yeah I’m Australian lol

[@Letthatonemarinate-h2r]

@@moo_jessye there are other countries on the internet

[@amazinmaven]

I'm seeing a lot of privilege, which in Mormonism (especially combined with any nepotism) can cover a MULTITUDE of sins. It's the wealthy, culturally beautiful & well-connected who can so blatantly flaunt or disregard the most controlling and shaming tactics that are used to keep those on the bottom of the rung down.

[@markfuller]

The travesty is how these "look the other way" Mormons give validity to an institution that sends missionaries around the world to tell people it's more real than real (restored, everyone else is wrong). In Latin America, mormons are like 1930s mormons here. They're die-hard and zealots about how wrong everyone else is. If they knew how the SLC "ancestry" practiced more of a "social-club" form of Mormonism, they'd lose their egoic investment in the story they were sold. Then imagine the young kids wasting 1-2 years of their life "spreading the gospel (of hate)" while their elders are enjoying a social club.

[@moustik31]

Yes, this. There was a similar dynamic of nepotism, wealth, popularity and entitlement was happening in my ex-Evangelical church.

[@anniecbee]

As someone was converted at 13 and yeeted out as a young adult, I appreciate the way you present everything.

[@JordanandMcKay]

All the coolest people yote out of there.

[@tobyleonard5410]

you two are always very careful not to kink shame while talking about religious based patriarchal situations. would like to add as a submissive the sub has the power to say what they are and are not ok with in a healthy relationship.

[@amethyst5512]

Wow, what a recipe for disaster. The “soft” swinging agreement, alcohol, the background of purity culture/Mormon rules, and putting their whole lives out there on social media. No way this wasn’t going to blow up in dramatic fashion.

[@borkbork4124]

What a rollercoaster this all is Just wanted to share my Mormon story for anyone interested. I love the channel and how yall talk about your experiences and decode the practices of the church. My sister was friends with a girl in her grade for 6 years, and one day when she was 16 (my sister and I were going through a lot of personal and familial issues) she confided in her about how she was unhappy and struggling. Not my place to say how she was coping, use your imagination. That was the first time her friend brought up LDS and invited her to church. So, to spell it out, my sister was very vulnerable and then was introduced to LDS, so I am comfortable calling it a cult. Then she was introduced to the sister missionaries at the ward. I went with my sister to church and the meetings she would have with the missionaries to support her-we were trying to support each other in a hard time. My sister was 16 and I was 14 mind you. Less than a year later she is baptized and that is when it went downhill; the love[bombing] was gone and she was pushed to do many baptisms for the dead. Our parents were hands off about it due to their complicated relationship with christianity. Once she was baptized the missionaries would start talking to me a lot more, being really pushy and judgemental. They were invited into our house to talk and eat dinner and one of the sister missionaries was a “difficult” person and she snapped at me when I said I attend all these mormon things (I went to a lot of mormon community events, even a dance, I dont recommend doing that as a non mormon) to support my sister, and not because I was interested in converting. Then on I was not allowed to attend chuurch or any mormon event with my sister, according to the “missionaries’ wishes.” THE KICKER is not long after my sister started being treated for her mental issue, she said I KID YOU NOT “When I would pray, I thought I was felling the Holy Ghost, turns out it was my general anxiety disorder.” Start to finish was about 8-9 months yall

[@markfuller]

I've seen "sister missionaries" seduce people to "feel the burning bosom." Many years ago I knew someone in a nursing home in Buffalo. The "sister missionaries" would come to the nursing home and literally flirt with the male residents. It was just like you described. Love-bombing, condemning anyone who shined a light on it. Sweet as molasses (one side of their face) and bitter mean the other side. I went to a Fast & Testimony meeting once. I was struck by how robotic people's testimonies were. You'd think it would be personalized and "I was addicted to.. and Jesus saved me." No, it was a canned recital of "I know in my heart Joseph Smith is a prophet ordained by g-d..." The same thing over and over. One fellow spoke about how we'll all become gods. The missionaries swarmed the person I was concerned about, saying "don't pay any attention to that. That's not important. It will make sense later." That kind of duplicity in "we're christian" while at the same time distancing church doctrine that isn't christian seemed very cultish, brainwashing. Plus the robotic testimonies. You could literally pay someone to give your testimony for you. It was that cookie-cutter. That's a hallmark of a cult. Recite the article of faith! By reciting it, you have egoic investment in it. Auto-suggestion is a very real thing. (Look up Emile Coue). To me, I don't really care what people want to delude themselves with. Masons, Mormons, whatever. Religion is religion. My concern is how the long-timers know this stuff isn't real, but continue the "machine" sending out missionaries to convince everyone else to believe it's real. That's not fair to the young people doing the mission. And, it's destructive to the people being deluded in a way the legacy/inherited Mormons don't believe. (It's more of a social club for them. The "perks" of having a recognized last name. "Insiders" in the church's history. It doesn't matter if it's real. It has its advantages in other ways within the legacy communities.).

[@christadietzel]

I'm sorry you both had to deal with this!! Their control uses distorted thinking patterns which cause and encourage anxiety/OCD/etc. I had to unlearn all of that crap with extensive Cognitive Behavioral Therapy since I was born and raised in the church. They prey on these feelings and try to control behavior through their unhealthy "teachings". I'm so glad that most converts end up leaving the church after seeing it for themselves

[@violetsnotroses3640]

I had a thought about garments and their design, particularly for women. I'm a stitcher/corset maker for a small company that makes historical underwear, mostly for costuming purposes, and the Mormon garments are pretty similar to normal 19th century underwear. Women typically wore a chemise and drawers (not bloomers, that's actually something different) under their corsets, both to protect their skin from the rough material of the corset, and to protect the corset and outerwear from sweat and body oils. I don't know the history of garments in the Mormon church, but I would bet that when they were first introduced, they were pretty much the same as the underwear that everyone else was wearing. 19th century underwear can be pretty comfy, if you're wearing it with clothes that are designed to be worn over it. I'm guessing that the comfort issues with modern Mormon garments are: a) wearing a woven fabric top underneath a knit fabric top is probably going to lead to some weird friction/bunching, and most modern clothes are knits. b) you mentioned a while back that your old garments were made out of poly blends. Synthetic fabrics like polyester do not wick sweat well, turning your undies into a mini sauna for your junk. 19th century underwear was made from cotton or linen, which do wick sweat. Even wool is better at this than polyester. This isn't really relevant to the whole swinging situation, but I think about it whenever you talk about garments in your videos. It's just interesting to me that the design of Mormon garments is impractically old fashioned, and the materials are impractically modern.

[@blythepayne382]

That is super interesting, thank you for sharing!

[@isabelferraz984]

they have a lot of different materials, if you search on youtube for how to pick garments, sunday jess has a video on it, i am in the church and that video explains it well

[@annahalverson1132]

Yep, you pretty much nailed it. They are 19th century underwear that really don't work well in a modern world. They do come in different styles/fiber contents and are all actually knits, not woven. They definitely suck under any kind of clothing and are very much a sauna for your junk. Haha!

[@MontanaMomma1]

I do a bit of sewing myself and made the historical connections. Very similar to the underclothes in about 1890-1910. My grandmother born in 1893 would talk about the era when the clothing was wrist and ankle length...😯

[@junebugjo444]

Im an exmormon amateur historical costumer and 19th century mormon garment illustrations arent super far off from the normal kinds of 19th century underwear everyone else was wearing. modern garments seemed to get kinda stuck in a like what may have been a normal length for undergarments around the 50s or so? (though im not big into 20th century clothes so that may not be accurate lol) and yes. Garment fabrics Suck. They are so uncomfortable. I absolutely prefer wearing my historical undergarments to mormon garments when I wore them lol. Besides the fabric the shapes are also not great for most clothes that are even considered ‘modest’ by mormon standards because of the cut and unlike some historical undergarments that can be visible, mormon garments are supposed to be completely hidden.

[@ariellyons1488]

It baffles me that they were so confident that they wouldn't get caught and played into the rumors. It's quite ballsy to joke about it online!

[@foxibot]

Speaking of this priest holder stuff, I keep going back to this book I read many years ago, where this ex Mormon girl, said all these guys on Brigham young would pick the best looking girls and announce that God had said they would be their wife. I had that happen with an evangelical guy, when I was in college, I told him, well I talk to God too, and he said you and he never talked. Lol. He just looked confused. The nerve of someone to do that, to manipulate a female to be with him. I mean to go up to a person who doesn’t know you, and probably isn’t interested in dating you, is so crude. It’s like gaslighting.

[@HosCreates]

It is gaslighting! Guys in religious circles can be creeps! I've never had it happen to me but I've had friends it's happened to. So creepy and weird!

[@thevoid8948]

I listen to y’all’s videos and DCP episodes while I work out and now every time I walk into the gym I start thinking about Mormonism. 😭

[@lynnpayne9519]

You don't swing and get intoxicated at the same time. It's not safe. Signals get mixed up. I am not in support of that for anyone, not just if your Mormon.

[@OfficialBex]

This.

[@thatJAWNraps]

Tate Paul sounds like some nightmare Andrew Tate/Logan&Jake Paul abomination of an influencer

[@JordanandMcKay]

Don’t even speak something like that into existence 😭

[@khazermashkes2316]

Thank you for adding audio descriptions for podcast/blind listeners!

[@sage-6]

This whole situation is a mess. I honestly feel bad for them having to share that with their family. Anything to do with sexuality is super tough to share with the family especially if they are the really conservative fundie type of people.

[@Kwolfpack13]

You are so dead on. Which is why I won’t tell my mom I’m Bi. She will pass without knowing because I refuse to deal with that ish (she’s Mormon)

[@sage-6]

I get that 100%. I was the same way when it came to my dad about me being bi and trans. I never told him. It’s not easy, but it’s better to be safe than sorry.

[@MrsMrMoney]

I guess I feel bad for them as well but my thing is why is it any of their families business why they are splitting? They can’t keep anything private obviously. I mean I could think of several “innocent” excuses as to why a couple would split that wouldn’t throw me or my friends under the bus, especially to my family/parents.

[@meganwestberry6698]

you feel bad? they make conscious decisions to put this crap all over the internet lol

[@evanjuleen]

Some of them actually had onlyfans... Half nude pictures of them sucking on lollipops.. They should have expected their parents to find out. They made it public a long time ago.

[@sarahwelch5413]

Coming to this after watching the first episode of ‘Secret Lives of Mormon Wives’ and needing an a back story explanation 😅

[@loricojocari8847]

I love this couple here talking!! They really make you understand what the topic is and keep you informed along the way. Plus you can tell they are best friends. Love you two. Keep the videos coming!!!

[@Kwolfpack13]

HAHAHAH I’m sorry but this is hilarious. I wasn’t surprised at all and had to block them on TT because I was tired of seeing Taylor. There’s a HUGE group of Mormon swingers here in Utah…..HUGE. I just am shocked that she called her friends out like that lol. So funny

[@Gurkhyvel]

I’m here after binging the secret lives of Mormon wives, cause that show did not really explain any of this

[@JordanandMcKay]

They may have really glossed over the details because some of the other major players didn't participate in the show. Maybe in season 2 tho

[@lorineilson7529]

This isn't the first group of Mormons to do this wife swapping thing. I'm sure it won't be the last. I just don't understand why they put it on the internet. Most aspects of our lives should be kept private.

[@JordanandMcKay]

definitely!

[@gladtobefreeagain7375]

Seems these people are trying to get a business off the ground so any publicity even if negative might help get a reality type brand launched. They don't believe, are already exmos, but couldn't acknowledge to family yet. Prepare for more of this (with other fundie groups) as "culture wars" rage. Wife swapping, polyamory is as old as Joseph Smith's antics. Still hilarious how Victorian prim LDS church is, with Victorian onesies & early marriage, when polygamist foundations tried to pretend it was all about everything but sex & using church wealth to give leadership literal procreative advantage over other Mormons. It's all hypocrisy & these young people know it. Fame is the point. See these scandals as helping more young people leave church or evade missionary materials by seeing gap between reality & church propaganda. Too ironic the senior leadership who will press for excommunication are themselves products of polygamy which in turn shocked & scandalized Southern & Northern Christian churches in 1800's & held up Utah statehood.

[@ard45387]

Yeah, most aspects of our lives should be kept private. But we live by a contract to stay out of each other's lives. Break that contract and all bets are off.

[@ashlieghdeeble9112]

So u think they maybe thought a show could come out of making public? Hmm

[@artista508]

Just finished your Mormon stories podcast series - blow away by your guys’ courage and empathy. Listened over the course of 3 days, it’s incredible what you two went through, and especially hearing Jordan’s story. Been following you both for a few months, and wishing all the best to your family. Really makes me think about my own family & the impact my mom’s family’s relationship with religion has effected them & me. Cycle breaking is hard work and I appreciate you sharing your story and continuing to de-mystify Mormonism. 💗💗💗

[@electricmushyy]

I got kicked out of the church for getting pregnant at 18 out of wedlock. Biblestudy at 5am every morning so I have the “lord on my mind during the day”. Couldn’t wear shorts or show my shoulders. Even though we couldn’t afford it, we were highly expected to pay 10% of our families income to the church. You get married in the temple and no one is allowed to come and you expected to wear these “armor of god” undergarments that are conveniently knee length and short sleeve so you HAVE to abide by their dress code. It’s a damn cult

[@tater60]

I grew up in Evangelical church.. I left because of purity culture, amongst other things.. what has always fascinated me is, once I met my husband I have never strayed, and 30 years of marriage that also holds true.. yet I have been shunned and looked down on by people still in the church, who have been caught out in these same kinds of ways. I think religion, if you choose to continue, is a lot better when your not forced into these strict oppressive cultures.

[@kaylacovers970]

I was today years old when I learned soft swinging was a thing. 😂 Also old me would have thought Wife Swapping was a TLC moment for sure 🤣😂. Loving this video and I’m only half way.

[@zoekirk1848]

Apparently soft swinging is a thing outside of this momtok cohort. It means having sex in the same room as another couple, but not switching partners. If they do swap sometimes, they're beginning to move beyond soft swinging.

[@flamin.hot.cheeto]

Hahah, I was wondering if you guys planned on covering this mess. Can’t wait for the video to go live!!

[@Dicyroller]

This is what happens when you repress and make sex seem evil. If you make it a normal thing, people can be open and honest with their wants and desires, you can teach responsibility, safety, and how to have self-control.

[@Primatenate88]

Sure aint evil, some could even call it holy, but its far from righteous. Wouldn't call it sacred since its a weapon just like any drug. A double edged sword indeed, just make sure to remember... there's always two sides.

[@Katz_Pajamas]

Watching this after seeing the recent ruby and Jodi arrests. Maybe the mom talk ladies were so adamant about saying they were only "soft swinging" bcuz it was their warped way of trying to remain within the church's rule of being seggsual with only your spouse. It's almost like they were flaunting that they found a loophole to the rule, since 'soft swinging" is having seggs only with your spouse, but physically near or in front of others that are simultaneously having seggs with their own partner, and not ever going "full swap".

[@joannahampton5979]

painting the wall behind you in the shade "cracked pepper" by Behr would look great with the lit hands and your fair coloured hair & complexions and give your space a "studio" look

[@sarahg9040]

You guys explained this so well. I was so confused after all the tik toks and Reddit, nobody explained this situation well.

[@stephaniefraughton2012]

This is quite insane! I grew up Mormon in Utah& seeing this just amazes me. They wear clothing they shouldn't, they break the word of wisdom by drinking alcohol, not to mention swinging is clearly not allowed. It seems as though they googled what would be an interesting topic, one that would bring viewers in& Mormon was what they settled on. It's just all so crazy!

[@XuiLeeEv]

It's probably that saying they're no longer Mormon would cut them out of their social groups and families more than just revealing clothing, coffee, etc would.

[@sunbeamsami]

I am so glad you covered this. I saw this pop up on my FYP and I was horribly confused. I hope one day (even though this is a silly video suggestion) you guys cover the weird ass Utah soda culture I keep seeing pop up on my TikTok. I have never seen so many weird soda concoctions in my entire life, and I am especially confused because I thought LDS followers aren't allowed to drink soda.

[@PerriDatingCoach]

Oh yes! Mormons LOVE soda! They’re not supposed to have “hot” beverages which has transferred to be coffee or tea. So instead of having a coffee drink they instead guzzle Mountain Dew!! 😂

[@patrickmcpartland1398]

Prescription pills too. Who needs alcohol when you got your amphetamines in the AM benzo in the PM lol

[@Princess__Buttercup]

Some people try to say caffeine, but it’s false. They were raised by militant morons. Swig, Fiiz, Sodalicious, Pop N Dot all have the sodas, but now add in Dutch Bros with designer coffees that kids hide they are getting. Then there is the fight over which is best, Cafe Rio or Costs Vida, they are literally the same. Then the cookies! It’s just crazy.

[@amanda_weber1]

People can pretend to be Mormon and make it look cool to not wear garments, but it can be harmful for people who are so stuck deep into Mormonism and are threatened with losing their salvation, eternal families, and being ostracized at family weddings for chosing not to wear them.

[@markfuller]

Even more threatening when you live in a mormon-dominated area, and promotions (hiring decisions) are based upon "which ward are you in?" I worked in a heavily-mormonized area and that was a very real concern for non-mormons. They'd join and go through the motions just because it was good for their career. (And, the die-hard momons knew and didn't care. To them, it was power.).

[@martyhudson3901]

@@markfuller Is Silicon Slopes also dominated by Mormons??

[@doeeyes2]

So how can you be mormon and just say no. I didnt know it was a choose what you want to do/ believe in type thing. Im Canadian and this is all brand new to me

[@markfuller]

​@@doeeyes2 _"So how can you be Mormon and just say no. I didn't know it was a choose what you want to do/ believe in type thing."_ "No gray areas" is the msg spread by the church machine via missionaries (to the outlanders). Apostate Christianity are the ones who picks and chooses. ("We have rock-solid testimonies. Everything's black and white."). Except, the legacy Mormons don't believe that. They know the truth, and the church is just a social club. It's where their legacy connections lie. They can't give up _everything_, can they? Their friends/family aren't die-hard about things either. So, everyone sticks around with the unspoken reality. Putting on the act to make everyone happy. It's a culture, not a religion. As a culture, it produces good things (emphasis on family, values, etc.). It's the converted outlanders who realize the truth, and become zealot anti-. You can't blame them. The church hasn't caught up with it's legacy membership. It's stuck in "bring more in!" mode, using the old message nobody believes anymore. I'd be offended to if I learned I'd been hoodwinked into a spiritual Amway. The legacy saints are more moderate this way. They know everyone had good intentions, and the basic principles of goodness are good. "Don't rock the boat" becomes the norm. As long as everyone talks the talk, they're all happy and loving and kind. Avoiding zealotry becomes polite. "The people in the big building do the thinking for us. And, we pray that their thinking will come around to ours sooner rather than later."). There's no good/bad people in this. It just is what it is, and a culture people find themselves (or, exported to them 1960's style). You should watch the Hulu/FX 7-episode miniseries "Under the Banner of Heaven," about the 1984 Lafferty murders. Things have changed a lot since 1984. But, that's been the church changing to be more popular, acceptable. The legacy membership knows this and adapt further. That's a really good miniseries showing what religious inflexibility leads to. But, that inflexibility doesn't exist in a vacuum. It was born of that inflexibility in the church. The church changed; hold-outs didn't. And then the average membership is left to take it as seriously as it can be (or deserves to be). They separate the people from the institution. That feeds the hold-outs to claim they're the true offshoot of LDS. Everyone else just chills knowing it's an unspoken topic, and it's more about relationships than religion. The problem, in my mind, is that the exported message hasn't evolved. It's still the same absolutist and divisive/haughty rhetoric of the 60s. There's a lot of hubris implied in "everyone's apostate, and we've restored the true gospel." Compared to how the legacy membership has watered things down to a culture. That's what pushes people over the edge. The duplicity, or the mixed messages; authority vs reality. There's a very big gap in modern LDS this way. I think the missionary program is at the far end of that gap. They're still talking the smack they talked 50 years ago. It works. But, only for so long.

[@doeeyes2]

@@markfuller i want to watch but I dont have a VPN and we dont have HULU in Canada 😫

[@Katcarp99486]

Found you two from fundie Fridays and so happy I did! I just… really like you both!? I love hearing your perspective on all of this mess, and looking forward to binging all the rest of your videos 😂🤷🏻‍♀️

[@mooney9046]

I found them through FF too and I love them. Would also love another collab...

[@timmcauliffe3695]

Hey guys, non mormon here for my entire life(grew up catholic and while i’m a gay person, i hold a nuanced view of religion without actively supporting or contributing to the culture) but find your videos fascinating. I’m curious as mormons what your take is on the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City that premiered in 2020. The reason the show is so fascinating is that of the 7 members who have been on the show, 4 of them have been mormon or are actively mormon. Heather Gay for instance was a tride and true mormon who raised her 3 daughters in the church, who has publicly left the church after the shame she received from community members after her divorce. Whitney Gay was publicly excommunicated out of the church for an affair, and perhaps the most interesting of all is Lisa Barlow. Lisa Barlow is someone who was raised jewish, from Long Island whose mom became mormon. What makes her incredibly interesting is that she owns several tequila brands and calls herself Mormon 2.0. What’s the most interesting is that the show itself is religiously diverse in that two of its members are jewish and muslim, given its in Salt Lake City(the mormon capital). It’s also interesting to see the dynamics between Heather and Whitney(ex-mormons who have had to deal with the more judgemental and toxic elements of the church) and Lisa(mormon 2.0) and their views of the church, based on the treatment and their experience. I’m really interested to see your takes on it, as the show is also really good. I love reality tv and i’d love to see your takes on this as well.

[@c.l.888]

I’m a church member from Arizona. I don’t know what they’re doing up there in Utah, but that is not my experience down here. I know tons of divorced people and no one shamed them at all. All the people I know are just good people trying their best.

[@sweetthistle8]

Yeah I was really confused by the whole claim of being shamed for getting divorced too. I know multiple divorced women in the Church and if anything people actually rally around them. Even to the point of the Church itself buying all the Christmas presents for a divorced single mom's kids and such. Maybe she experienced shame from her own family or something, but I personally haven't seen evidence of institutionalized shaming of divorcees.

[@Sam-tu4hp]

@@sweetthistle8 I have personally witnessed shaming for divorce and was myself shamed for getting divorced

[@katrinab494]

I'm an ex Mormon who left around 2010 but my experience is that my mom, when she was in the church, was very heavily discouraged from divorcing my dad who was a drug addict. Bishops (like the priest or pastor for Mormons) would tell her to just keep being faithful and he would eventually come around by her example. I was taught that the only "acceptable" reason for divorce was physical abuse. After she divorced him, she was quite ostracized in the church. However, actual excommunication takes a lot and it usually involves some sort of public scandal - it's a lot more common that other members will sort of unofficially shut you out rather than being excommunicated.

[@katrinab494]

And as far as the "Mormon 2.0" thing, I have never heard of that term. I do think that Mormonism has, at least on the outside, become somewhat more progressive in the last 10 years or so. But the term that's more common for that in my experience would be "Jack Mormon". That is what people were called if they are the type of Mormons to go to church semi-regularly, probably call themselves Mormon, and still have friends and family in the church, but they would also do things in their regular lives like drinking alcohol or wearing unapproved clothing etc. Also it's interesting because Salt Lake City, yes it's the Mormon capital because of all the church buildings & the temple and history there, but the city itself is pretty progressive these days and is only about 40% Mormon (although the small towns in Utah have much stronger Mormon influence).

[@blushface]

yes, "this week sucked" is very much my sentiment, too.

[@JordanandMcKay]

it's been a heavy week. take care of yourself

[@pembrokelove]

My bestie is very seriously ill and I spent all day handling hospital stuff, so now I am quite happy to learn about Mormon Milf Key Parties. This is going to be awesome.

[@lynnemcnab1500]

I appreciate how you two play off and respect each other's opinions.

[@megshep]

Just wanna come in with a touch of shallow positivity (lol) Jordan I LOVE YOUR EYE LOOK!!!! Your lashes look gorgeous. Also thank you for making this video to feed my drama llamas 🤣

[@JordanandMcKay]

Aw thank you!! And yessss we love drama llamas 😉❤️

[@juliebranton1730]

I heard about this at my workout group last week and am so glad you broke it down for me. I am perplexed that the mom talk group thought it wouldn’t turn into what it is now. Honestly, if you label yourself as a Mormon what did they think would happen when it came out? 🤦🏼‍♀️ Do what you want to do, no judgements. Just keep it offline if you don’t want people to talk about it.

[@michy8457]

This situation is crazy and a mess. Great coverage of the story . Last week was hard and rough .

[@MoMac155]

When I lived in SLC for a year was the first time I ever encountered couples who were open about swinging. Every couple who I met who openly admitted to swinging or wanting to swing also claimed to be Mormon. Since leaving SLC I have not encountered people who openly admit they are swingers (I’m sure I know people who are but just don’t talk about it). It was a very odd open subculture that I encountered in SLC that I just assumed was on the quiet in some circles and on the loud when they were at bars. Much of this I encountered working at a bar where I was one if not the only employee who was not currently a practicing Mormon or semi-/no longer Mormon.

[@daniellebluemel9421]

Actually this type of thing happened in my ward I grew up in. It was crazy!! I feel like it happens a lot!! A lot!!

[@RASECROD]

From what I heard from some Missionary’s there’s a lot of wife swapping out in Saratoga Springs and in Draper.

[@maximumeffort78]

Non Mormon here, but I built my house in Saratoga Springs when it was just starting to grow (Harvest Hills). Totally clueless! Maybe that’s why my tattooed, pierced, and weird colored hair, heathen self was still embraced? Don’t judge? Here I thought it was because I was a super friendly Oncology RN with a cute little family, despite being a bit weird looking lol! We all live in Portland now, I blend right on in!

[@maximumeffort78]

To add, I have heard about A LOT of Mormon swinger though, just not in Saratoga Springs specifically. There are tons of clubs and I knew some people into the lifestyle. Whatever makes you happy, it just made me really sad to see so much oppression.

[@haniinii]

If girlie (how did I forget her name already RIP) doesn't land herself a spot on RHOSLC I'm rioting.

[@JordanandMcKay]

same tbh

[@cameronvansant2108]

My polyamory credentials are non-existent, but from my online lurking, it definitely seems that what Taylor went through is really common in polyamory etc. circles among newbies/in a monogamous relationship that transitions to something else. Common beginner moves: 1. Legislating exactly what/how/who/where etc. their original partner can do, who then agrees with no awareness of if they actually can follow these rules, and then breaking the rules. 2. Promising the original partner it's just sex/there will be no feelings and then having feelings. 3. Divorcing. I think it's really easy to A. want to have an extra partner or to hook up with someone new, but B. it's usually really hard to know your original partner is doing that. A lot of people are excited for "A" (and underestimate how excited they are for "A," hence the rule breaking) and have no idea how much "B" will be a dealbreaker for them until it happens (hence the divorce). (I know this is a year old so I'm not up to date, lol... I'll catch up!)

[@finnilyenough]

I gotta wait a whole day!? 😭 I clicked so fast lmao

[@JordanandMcKay]

you made it!

[@abbyhayes22]

😂 same! Luckily I stumbled upon it only 2 minutes before the premiere

[@abbyhayes22]

The “sexual deviant” population seems to be more dense where there is more $, like Alpine and Highland. I’ve met two men from Alpine who were “righteous LDS men” to the general public, but swingers behind closed doors.

[@WrenCobble]

At 6:20 i literally thought they were in an airport. That house is fucking massive!

[@ellynstein7909]

Ive had an onlyfans for 2 years and you are absolutely correct about the insane number of verification you have to go through to get an account ...even a subscriber account. Creator accounts are very strict and tbh o.f polices what you put up and if there are other people in your pics and vids who dont have accounts they will flag it and possibly take it down. The other girls involved may also have accounts that are under fake names 🙊🙈

[@kristyhughes3146]

Thanks for covering this; I’d heard about this but it was such a weird blip, I thought it was just a rumor. Question: do you think swinging happens in this strict religious construct because folks get married before they’ve rebelled?

[@workoutmom2b1g]

Jordan and McKay. I just want to tell the both of you that I appreciate your perspective so much! You all are so smart and articulate. ❤

[@kellimshaver]

These people all just seem far too emotionally immature to handle serious, long-term, healthy adult relationships, much less the complexities of non-monogamous relationships.

[@bailesofhay2258]

🙌 THIS 🙌

[@ravencouch]

Jordan don’t make us wait 😭😭😭😭😭😭 I was hoping y’all would cover this topic lol

[@kristinkrauss5610]

Just wanted to let you all know you both did the best job covering this. I listened to a couple Bachelor alumni podcasts, and they were pretty ignorant on a lot of the technicalities of Mormonism, so they missed a lot of the layers and it just wasn't as good! You all are a valued voice in the podcast world💫

[@Gingersnap12]

I’m not sure if this gets mentioned but I unfortunately had Taylor’s videos pop up on my TicTok I am remembering a TicTok where they reference how much they make on only fans. Also, love you guys and the work you are doing. I have been researching different religions/cults for a while now out of pure curiosity and am loving how you guys lay things out and have answered many of my question regarding mormonism. Keep up the good work, I’m hear for it!

[@lydias98]

This is just my opinion but these people seem so immature. They are all too old to be plastering their drama and personal lives all over the internet like this. None of these people seem emotionally mature enough to even be married in the first place.

[@annas8947]

Or to raise kids!!

[@johnthomas7467]

Exactly. It’s also immature for moms to plastering videos of themselves doing choreography on tik tok. Those ladies are in serious need of some self-validation.

[@Tayzerfun]

I'm a never-mo, I know nothing about these women.... None of it... But please allow me to pull up a seat and pour me that tea, Jordan and McKay!

[@bethowens8863]

Just wondered if you've considered doing a video about divorce and Mormonism? It certainly seems as though divorce does happen between Mormon couples, but is there some kind of repentance process involved/pressure for couples to stay together? Are you barred from the temple for a period of time? I'd be interested to hear more about this.

[@c.l.888]

Not barred from the temple unless you cheated or abused your spouse. No pressure to stay married.

[@amberinthemist7912]

There is absolutely pressure to stay married even through abuse and adultery. There are divorced mormons but there is a stigma (especially for the wife of course).

[@oliviaproctor3375]

I’m a firm believer that what couples do in the bedroom is their own personal business. BUT when you do what they did on tik tok…. WHAT DO THEY EXPECT

[@letitiamae]

Some of these people seem like they went to Mormon church as a kid and they keep up the bare minimum (not getting endowed and wearing garmies) so they can keep on good terms with family. Also, "I went too far and broke my marriage so I'm going to burn down everyone else's lives" is kinda selfish.

[@melaniesheldon8013]

The women in these Tiktiks are not wearing the magical underwear 😂😂

[@Sprklngglassslipper]

I found your channel in the past week and I am catching up in random order on all of your awesome content. I have never been Mormon myself, but have many people I care about in the LDS church, and I’m also always questioning my own thoughts on religion. I just love y’all.

[@RachelFinston]

Anything is possible when you just ✨lie ✨ I would feel bad for these people if they weren’t part of the problem.

[@patricksullivan2397]

Swinging has been going on in Utah for a long time and having lived in St George I was shocked by the sexually charged environment which made me feel very uncomfortable and that money and sex were an obsessive thing and my wife and I knew swingers that were obsessed by both. The problem is that when you say no to this lifestyle you are shunned and denigrated. My wife was a convert and of course expected people to be moral and honest but it didnt take long to dispel that notion. The problem is that you think you can trust people but mormons are the worst shady hypocrites. One of the swinging groups in St George was headed by a local attorney who was so obese that I just cannot imaging anyone having sex with him. My wife was helped during a terrible time by a country woman of hers and they were both swingers I mean the lady and her husband. They are awful people that dont seem to understand that not everyone wants that type of life and they take a hard on against you.They take your no as an insult.. Its like people who demean you because you dont drink liquor. We mind our own business and dont push our quiet lifestyle on anybody. So glad to be out of Utah. Yeah for Canada!

[@shonnyhines2380]

Well said. This is a SHADY as f*****k religion. They don't help their community like they say, I know from personal experience. And yep, the immature two faced shit is prevalent.

[@Sprklngglassslipper]

I don’t want to challenge any of your experiences by any means, but I did want to comment that as a fat person myself it is hurtful to see people say someone was “so obese I can’t imagine anyone having sex with him.” I’m not saying that this person was good or kind or worthy of you or anyone else having sex with them, but I do want to just say that someone’s size does not determine that worthiness. It’s okay if you do not find fat people personally attractive, but we are not vile or disgusting or unworthy because of our size (you didn’t use these words, but they are ones I have heard others use).

[@moustik31]

@@Sprklngglassslipper 💜💜💜

[@amandaduerk5866]

@@Sprklngglassslipper this was so eloquently expressed, and more importantly- SO true. Sometimes when we are repulsed by someone’s vile soul, we latch on to their outer appearance as some kind of misdirected justification or reasoning.

[@themaramentality8850]

The reason that it’s called Happy Vally is because the Happy Valley, is a nickname for Penn State University’s school’s location. It’s all over merchandise, and I’m sure it’s to avoid getting a lawsuit from a BIG10 university, with LOTS of capital! Also, I’m an Ohio State fan (GO BUCKS)

[@annahalverson1132]

Happy valley is what Utah county is called. Specifically the Provo/BYU area.

[@bagel_bitez1]

The real crimes are the wives' bad hair extensions.

[@HosCreates]

The real crime is the kids will be affected by their parents dirty laundry being aired

[@jennifer_y_fischer]

I'm very sick today. So I'm watching youtube videos and dozing off. I went to sleep to "soft swingers" and woke up to Only Fans. I doubt I'm going to doze on the second rewatch, lol! I'd rewatch it when I felt better anyway, I love your content. But your voices are too soothing

[@themaramentality8850]

Hi y’all, I want to just state my opinion- I think Taylor is being truthful and honest! She loses everything by telling this, which is sad, she is a consenting adult and so is her ex-husband; they have every right to a polyamorous relationship if they choose too. I feel for her, because I don’t think she wants to lose her family- or else she would probably not be a Mormon. I really hope that she can get out, get her children out, find non-Mormon friends, and hopefully salvage something with her family if she chooses. I hope she knows that from the worst pain and breakdown, something beautiful can be reborn- I hope she gets to live her truth!

[@haniinii]

Why do I feel like I need to break out the holy water after just seeing this title and thumbnail 😶

[@JordanandMcKay]

Lol have it at the ready!

[@kiterafrey]

I can’t go into lawsuit details, but from working on a lawsuit related to. TikTok I can say they also use your phone contact in the FYP algorithm. So if you signup with a phone, you are likely going to hit the FYP of people who have your contact saved in their phone. Same with linking YT and IG.

[@markfuller]

What's disturbing is that the Mormon "machine" sends out missionaries to the rest of the world to make everyone else believe it's real. But, in Utah, the established mormonry knows it's a load of hooey. They openly admit that they remain Mormon because they're "known" in those circles; it's a social club to them. Nothing wrong with social clubs. It just seems abusive to send people into the world on a mission to make everyone else believe it's real. Not just "real," but "restored" (everyone else is WRONG!). That takes a special kind of unconscious mind, looking the other way.

[@FaceFcuk]

They get laughed at around my area 😂

[@PlaDyl]

To the swingers referenced in this video, play stupid games, win stupid prizes. 👏🏼

[@Kimmie9553]

Taylor has also said/confirmed that she has not gone through the temple/been sealed and doesn’t have garments to wear

[@JordanandMcKay]

Even still, modesty standards still apply!

[@Kimmie9553]

@@JordanandMcKay oh I know! I grew up with Mormon friends and my partner has Mormon family. Jordan just made a point of mentioning that she confirmed that one of the girls hasn’t been through the temple and I figured that I would mention that the same applies to Taylor

[@welpppppppppppppp]

i really misheard it as taylor and taint i’m sorryyyyyyu 😩

[@JordanandMcKay]

I did say that but it was accidental lmao 😂

[@smarie3874]

Best wishes and love to our American neighbours after a tough week.

[@Boos.andbooks]

Momtok... My brain: Montauk. Ah yes, the Momtauk Monster. I understand

[@JordanandMcKay]

Hank Muntak. Ever heard of Salena Gomez? He made her.

[@niccir2885]

I'm so curious what they believe makes them mormon other than being raised in the church. They aren't sealed, they aren't active, they clearly don't follow the rules. So, what is it? They believe in the bigotry, racism, and misogyny of the religion but not the restrictions on themselves? Is that what it is? I just want them to explain what they believe makes them mormon other than saying they are.

[@gz5405]

I saw it was happening and RAN to your channel! So glad you guys are talking about this!

[@pleasepleasethebees]

I can never understand or tolerate people when they have such huge, glaring contradictions between what they profess and how they live. It's wild.

[@markfuller]

What's worse is even the non-swinging Mormons who don't believe the "story" anymore, but remain Mormon because that's all they've ever been, their friends are mormon, it's a social network for them. That sounds harmless enough until you consier how their apathy support "missionaries" traveling the globe, telling people this is more real than real(!) Not just "truth" but "restored truth" (and everyone else is wrong). You've got young people wasting a couple years of their life promoting something that most US (and especially Utah) Mormons don't believe. The new converts in latin america, europe, etc. are *die hard* about the story. Whereas, in SLC (or Mesa AZ), everyone knows it's nonsense, and just a social club. Nothing wrong with social clubs. I just don't like how they can look the other way while the rest of the world is deceived with absolute'ist rhetoric. There's no way someone can be a "good person" living that kind of comfortable le.

[@elizabethgrogan8553]

Your subs numbers are climbing fast, and much deserved. Had a big problem with a channel which scammed it's Patreon members, myself included. My bank has recovered my money but I can't get Patreon approved for overseas channels yet.

[@JordanandMcKay]

Omg I’m so sorry! That’s so messed up!!

[@libwool2580]

A woman named D talks about the Mormon swinging clubs in Utah, and how several hospital officials are performing SRA

[@HosCreates]

SRA?

[@stephaniecoker1643]

Excellent video! There was so much I didn't know about this situation. Unrelated, but love your makeup today, Jordan 😊

[@arthurwatts1680]

Hi guys. Are Catholics and Episcopalians shunned in Salt Lake City ? We Catholics kinda started the whole 'Holier Than Thou' thing, not realising that it could come back to bite us ;)

[@tylerminnis8452]

Are these the moms they are making a documentary about? The secret life of Mormon wives?

[@natmaccc]

Yes

[@HeartOfHippie]

Can you imagine the hissy fit Ruby Franke would be filming herself freaking out 😂

[@justgoplacesblog]

That company name may have been a hint. The original “ happy Valley” Set were a bunch of British aristocrat colonisers who lived in Kenya in the 1920s. They were big on drink and drugs and swinging. Just notorious hedonism that shocked their peer group. Or is that giving too much credit to these women who do not look like they know that much world history??

[@philclegg8169]

They wouldn’t understand a word of your post. 😂

[@hutchyyy6444]

I love it when people don't stick to mormon doctorine, in fact it's one of my favourite things. But folk like this need to understand that when they operate on social media under the guise that they are mormon, they're gonna be held and judged by the standards that they claim to live their life by.

[@702luxor]

Everytime I watch one of these I'm like wtf is that? Swinging, drinking and something called soaking. All this goes down at church? I must've went to the wrong one.

[@thatJAWNraps]

if you guys havent seen it youd LOVE the hilarious new BBC comedy 'Everyone Else Burns' mocking the LDS church

[@amanda_weber1]

I don't think people would really care about the swinging thing if they didn't keep up the Mormon facade for so long.