How Bishop Bill Reel Lost his Mormon Faith - Bill and Amanda Reel Pt. 2 | Ep. 1785

[@merivalefreya7064]

I owe everything to Bill Reel. I was a TBM with 4 small kids and my husband lost his faith. My husband asked me to listen to ONE podcast. The only reason i agreed was because he was a bishop who still had a temple recommendation. One Folk magic, the seer stone and Alvins hand podcast later - I knew Joseph Smith made it all up and my husband and i TOGETHER began a new life of deconstruction, healing, growth and peace. I never would have listened to the thousands of mormon stories episodes I've listened to- without BILL REEL. THANK YOU for keeping my family together.

[@MormonDiscussion]

You are Welcome. Now go live your best Life. :)

[@joannbardfield5116]

​😊

[@jewllzz584]

Good for you and your family.

[@Degmxn]

@@jewllzz584 - In my case, my wasn't ready to listen to Bill Reel, and heard that same episode and labelled Bill as unsafe for her faith. So, oh well...

[@elan007]

@@Degmxn We can't evolve ahead of ourselves...

[@HomestarJr]

I think it’s amazing that a carpet salesman turned pawn shop manager not only obtained an audience with those elitist leaders in Salt Lake City, but also stared them down and called them out. You’re a rock star Bill.

[@mellisagreen7801]

You should not have to work hard to make something true. If it were so then we could also work hard to make someone love us. Truth has nothing to do with work it either is or isn't.

[@DmanRC]

“When a Latter Day Saint says they have questions, they already have doubts. And when they say they have doubts, they already have disbelief because it’s not safe in a Mormon space to acknowledge where you’re really at” 35:10 Wow Bill Reel. That is so powerful to hear that framed so simply and accurately.

[@elan007]

The smallest ? threatens the cult!

[@beebefoxy]

I have never studied so hard in my life. I wanted the church to be true so badly. It was my life, I devoted everything to this church for 45 years, it’s all I knew. I’m far from a lazy learner; it’s incredibly insulting to assume those who leave the church were just lazy and not willing to work for it or study hard enough. I spent 2 years trying to make everything make sense, to make all my “shelf” items make sense. I stuck it out as a RS Pres trying to help others while I went through my own faith journey/truth crisis. My husband and older children had left the church during this time. It was just me and a few of my younger children still going to church until they didn’t want to go anymore and didn’t believe either. So, I continued bringing my youngest, who has autism, even though church was not a safe place for her. I kept thinking I can make this work and keep my eternal family together if I stay faithful and I can help others. Then when it all came crashing down and I knew it couldn’t be true, I kept going because I thought there was still good in the church and I could still help people and help make changes within. Then I realized the church does more harm than good and I couldn’t stay anymore. I couldn’t unknow what I knew. It has been the hardest thing to deconstruct something I was born into and something that was an essential part of my identity, family, and community. I didn’t leave because I was offended either, if that was the case, I would have left a long time ago with all of the things that have happened to my family within the church. I didn’t leave to go and sin, I didn’t leave because it was easier. This has been the hardest thing I have ever had to do, and I have done some pretty hard things in my life. I left because it wasn’t true; I’ve been lied to my entire life and the church has been harmful to a lot of people, including myself and my family. I have admittedly made some enemies and lost a lot of friends and family for standing up for what is right because it goes against the church. That has probably been the most painful part of leaving. To realize that the church is more important than relationships with me and my family. I will continue to be a voice and advocate for those who can’t speak up and so others will know the truth. If people want to remain in the church and are happy, I’m fine with that, but they need to be fully informed in order to consent to committing their lives to a religion that has been fraudulent and deceitful from its inception. I am extremely grateful for men like Bill Reel and John Dehlin for speaking the truth and helping those who question understand the truth. They have helped me feel less crazy and validated and given me the courage to also speak the truth. Bill is right, the church teaches that you are dishonest by omission when you withhold the truth which is just as harmful and deceitful as straight up lying and telling falsehoods. The church and its leadership doesn’t even follow its own teachings in this area and multiple others, but expects its members to do so; they are held by a different standard. Both Bill’s and John’s work continues to strengthen and help countless people in and outside the church, especially those who have had the truth hidden from them for their entire lives. Thank you!

[@MorganNightshade3110]

I lost everyone. I became a widow, and the Church said it was because of my lack of faith. I lost my purpose, my social group. But I gained my self respect. It's only me and my daughter now. I spent nearly a decade gathering knowledge and truth. No lazy learner here, either. Bless you! I hope your life is filled with peace, happiness, and TRURH!

[@patricianoel7782]

I could not have expressed myself better. We are two peas in a pod except I got divorced, on recommend from the priesthood. 😅

[@tori.rory.]

So well said. You put into words so much of my experience and feelings too.

[@wendyromero2463]

Thank you for sharing! I could have written this myself. ❤❤

[@elan007]

Healing codependency is essential after a life of ritual-abuse mind-control.

[@markbillietravels]

My husband and I sat down and watched the entire nine hours best Mormon stories I’ve ever seen! I've seen about 100 ish. It felt like a graduate course on how to be a human. It was very validating as a post Mormon after 43 yrs TBM. Gave words to concepts. I’ve been feeling and haven’t been able to express.

[@mormonstories]

Yay!!!

[@MormonDiscussion]

That made me smile

[@cheryloja9073]

As a convert to the church in 1993, I have always questioned certain things my nickname is rebel Annie. Going on 12 years now I've been inactive due to several things. My relationship with God and Jesus has not changed, but your information has affirmed my conclusions about mormonism. Great work, 👍 thank you 😊

[@Galworld761]

Faith does not equate to religion. Some of the most faithless people are very religious. They like rules and the cover they provide to judge or delegate decisions and critical thinking requires thru life. I love Jesus. Religion….not so much.

[@tweetiebirdism]

I’m not Mormon, but I have throughly enjoyed this interview. Bill’s sensible advice towards any religion can be useful for a variety of life decisions.

[@kristieryal8814]

My mom always said, A half truth is a whole lie!” I appreciate Bill not backing down!

[@vlong5537]

"Why should the truthteller be punished"? Spot on. Thank you for your authenticity.

[@brycebarker1582]

I am so glad that both John and Bill followed the path of being real truth tellers. It is so comforting to listen to brave educated people openly discussing the problems we all notice, but can’t talk about at church. (Or couldn’t in my case (past tense))

[@sylviaauten6280]

V

[@MorganNightshade3110]

"Some things that are true, are not very useful"...Boyd K. Packer Well, more ignorance has never been illustrated better than that comment! As I studied, and listened, and watched the obscenity of Priesthood offenses, my entire family left. We could no longer walk in the sludge of B.S. the Church creates! Thank you, John and Bill. The TRUTH is ALWAYS USEFUL!!!

[@mellisagreen7801]

Saying the truth is not always useful then why do they keep saying the church is true. You could not have said it better, such utterance comes from pure ignorance. I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

[@Liz-hr6hf]

I hope the two of you truly know how much you are helping other people. After stumbling onto the gospel topics essays in 2015, after being active LDS for almost 40 years, I was in complete shock and disbelief. I knew nothing would EVER be the same. I went down the apologetic route for a few years. I thought, like Bill, maybe the church had problems then, but maybe the church today would still be good. Nope. It got worse. The top church leaders never took responsibility for the lack of transparency and lies of omission. They blamed it on me, the doubter. I started to see the other harm done in the current church. Mormon stories and Mormon discussion podcast was my soft place to land where I felt heard, validated and I knew I would be told the truth. Y’all have integrity and I’m eternally grateful to both of you. 💗

[@jeannemarie5908]

Wow guys. I am loving this conversation. Dishonesty is NOT honorable. I don’t care how you spin it.

[@rebeccasirrine947]

I stopped attending church after my divorce from an abusive husband, and the attendant ecclesiastical abuse that went along with the process. It took me years to heal enough to really take a hard look at the faith I left behind. I've been doing that for the past few years, and Bill has been instrumental in my realization that I made no mistake putting Mormonism behind me. I appreciate that.

[@annedodgson8677]

…loving it…just not true. Period…all shelf issues solved…Reel is a treasure

[@hbendzulla8213]

Most sensibel Podcast in relationship to faulty LDSD Doctrine I ever watched and listen to. Thanks,Bill and John. Amen

[@thermalfusionist]

Thank you Bill Reel and Mormon Stories.

[@tracygrist8038]

❤yes…thank you!

[@beebefoxy]

I found out that I have 2.2% sub-Saharan African in my DNA from my 23 & Me test. This means that my dad who was a recently baptized member during the 70’s shouldn’t have been given the priesthood. Supposedly, not even a drop of African blood would be allowed to be given the priesthood. There’s no way this was a prophetic policy or doctrine, there’s no way the supposed prophets could discern who was black and who wasn’t. This doctrine comes from racist viewpoints from regular men dictating the lives of others and enforcing problematic policies/doctrine to maintain control of a made up religion.

[@1fishinghuman208]

God bless you Mr. Reel for so boldly standing up for the truth.! It's so inspiring and refreshing.

[@tracygrist8038]

Here here!

[@dianec6290]

Isn't he an atheist now? He talks about the flood and the old testament not being real. I am guessing he does not believe in God, or at least the God of the bible.

[@elan007]

@@dianec6290 Unfortunately, many newly 'freed' Mormons throw God out with the bath water... I left the Mormon church 50 years ago. I've had lots of spiritual experiences and a circuitous route to basic Christianity -- Christ consciousness. 🙏

[@scottpurves]

Bill is the genuine article, was very kind to me in my own transition which overlapped with his, time-wise. Great job everyone.

[@ohtobeasuriel]

This was one of my favorite MSP eoisides of all time. Thank you both for all you've done and for all you do.

[@DuchessChau]

Lying by omission is still a lie! And that's regardless of your religious faith, or lack thereof.

[@Chococatania]

Yes, I kept thinking about how in court people promise to tell the truth, the whole truth

[@wendyellsworth8443]

Love this so much! Thank You both for all of your hard work to be truth tellers! Like I told my Bishop this isn’t my fault that I’m finding the truth. And it’s not your fault you didn’t know this. But it is the corporations fault for lying and hiding the truth from its members! It’s pure insanity how the truth tellers get persecuted! I was always taught to be a truth seeker and a truth teller. That was fine, until I’m speaking the truth about the corporation! Interesting 🧐🧐🧐

[@marlenemeyer9841]

Well Said! Asking someone to go against their own inner voice and rational thinking is wrong. We may not all come to the same conclusions, but everyone who is making an informed decision for themselves deserves respect.

[@petrahinkley5489]

Truth tellers seem to always end up persecuted at least for a while.

[@marlena98148]

.... the corporation..... P E R F E C T I O N! ❤

[@AWAKE561]

I'm from southamerica. Wish you could put subtitles in spanish. I left the church long time ago. Through a person I love and that still goes to church, I see that here no one knows about the letter, the essays, No one knows my history, Rough stone rolling, etc. Your videos in youtube. It is sad to see how they are being taken advantage of.

[@sherriekalahermullins8398]

Thank you for discourse. You two offered me more up to this point than I ever had. I left alone in the mid 1980’s and have finally opened the shelves I built to survive on my own outside the fold. I have family who are members who talked to me until I stopped demurring to their beliefs….it has been lonely and simultaneously expansive to stop them from telling me why I left the church and sharing with them TRUTH! Informed Consent is necessary . I love your work so very much.

[@tracygrist8038]

Gosh. I was there at dinner the night Bill Reel was here in Alpine. I love his podcast with RFM. I loved the night of questions with Bill and Amanda. AND this insight into Bill and his wife is absolutely amazing and impressive and I admire this level of truth seeking. My heart is bursting with emotions over this interview.🌻

[@mormonstories]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@bunifer]

Beautiful. I love Bill's unapologetic, logical and methodical layout of his evidences of why the church isn't true. He was able to articulate everything that I have thought but couldn't put it as simply as that. Thanks Bill.

[@julieprince5538]

John and Bill, as I listen to this podcast for the 2nd time and listening to your discussion regarding telling the truth and then staying silent with the apologetics, I call it being complicit to the harm. The members are complicit to the church protecting the sex offenders. Coming from an imperfect human! Much love for All❤ I agree with you Bill 100%

[@drmay]

In this episode, Bill exemplifies and explains perfectly my own process and thoughts on my deconstruction the last 2 years. Thank you Bill and John and everybody else involved in creating this episode.

[@katekack108]

Bill is sooo sharp and engrossing. I was glued to this interview. Wow. Excellent.

[@tedsmith8369]

If there’s TBM’s watching this and decide not to investigate the truth, they should be ashamed of themselves!

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

I am sitting in my backyard where there is so much beauty and feeling gratitude, healing and joy in those who tell the truth and have compassion for others. ❤️❤️❤️

[@shellycrossley3372]

This is my favorite episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Thank you so much Bill Reel!!!

[@sheliabryant3997]

Love Bill "REAL" (🌺). Sooo happy you ALL came together to produce this podcast. THANK YOU! BRAVO! BRAVA!

[@marlenemeyer9841]

When faithful LDS Historians give firesides their ultimate message is “I know all the facts and all the hard stuff and I still believe….so you can too.” The dishonest part is that they do NOT believe the same way as the fireside attendee believes. Patrick Mason believes Joseph Smith’s Polygamy was sin. Does he tell that at the fireside? Richard Bushman believes the historical narrative we were taught is untrue. Does he say that at the fireside? Many faithful historians no longer believe the Book of Abraham is translated scripture or that the Book of Mormon is actual history…….They have made concessions in their own minds to allow the church to still be true, but they leave those controversial concessions out of their talks with believers. They know the leaders of the church have been involved in lying and coverups but that is not part of the fireside. They know that honest, truth seeking scholars who found truth about historical events, and wrote the truth, were excommunicated for telling the truth. That’s not part of the fireside. So when they infer that members can, and should, continue to believe they KNOW that most members believe a very white washed, uninformed version of events. Tell members the Whole truth and nothing but the truth and allow them to decide if they still believe! That is the ONLY way for informed consent to happen. Don’t come to my Stake and try and make it look like those who have chosen to leave are the uninformed members! I respect those who know all the dirty details and yet still find a way to believe. But……I can only respect them if they are willing to outline their concessions rather than leaving a member to think the historian accepts the same narrative the way it was taught to all of us! Another thing that really chaps me is being told that “Church History” class wasn’t really to teach church history it was to increase members faith. WHAT???? Why did you call is Church History? Why did you let me believe I could trust you that you were telling me the facts??? I bore my testimony to so many people by saying “I went to 4 years of Seminary, years of church history classes, even University level Church History classes so I know what you are telling me is a lie.” The people sharing history of my church knew so much more than I did. I was the fool! They were the informed. Shame on the church for asking me to give everything to them, even my very life, yet they withheld very important facts and truths and purposely kept me ignorant. I cannot forgive that kind of dishonesty and deception! If you wanted me to be faithful you should have been honest and faithful to me!

[@kathyhughes4483]

Amen

[@Cor6196]

Such conviction expressed so concisely and persuasively! I don’t believe I’ve EVER heard such a compelling voice: logic + vivid examples + appropriate parallels + controlled anger = OVERWHELMING truth.

[@juliablair4963]

Every organization has boundary maintenance. Don’t tell too much truth. Wow! Thank you for your authenticity. It was enjoyable on some level to watch the two of you discuss your similar paths, so much pain in asking questions in your faith journey. Not that I wish hurt on anyone, but it’s beautiful to see the community and compassion you have for each other.

[@roseinbloom8875]

Thank you Bill for speaking the truth! Your podcast has helped me in my deconstruction. Mormon Stories has helped me too.

[@markkrispin6944]

Awesome Part 2 episode! Bill Reel hit a grand slam on everything about the Mormon Cult Church. Bill Reel is the "real deal"!

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

"Why should truth tellers be punished?" - Bill Reel

[@ronedwards2340]

Bill Reel and John have have been a great help throughout my life I am a returned missionary from a wonderful place to serve New Zealand when i was asked about polygamy well there i would say lets look what Joseph says about it and I would quote Joseph in saying what a strange thing it is to be accused of having 7 wifes when all i can see is one . I felt totally betrayed when I found out that truth after going through and graduating from the seminary program going to church every Sunday and being the Elders quorum teacher. I was told that wasn't true by a returned missionary and then another one still not believing it an tried to keep my testimony going. When I heard it from you guys I had to deconstruct my beliefs it was hard to do but finding out the full truth about it from you guys was very helpful. Thanks for all you guys do and it is always good to see Bill and Amanda on John's podcast I had the opportunity to meet Bill personally and hope we can get together some time keep doing what you guys are doing very much appreciated RonEdwards

[@waterfall_brook]

ts 55:34.... I liked Bill before, but I think I just fell in love with him. I wanted to cheer. Thank you, Bill Reel, for your vulnerability and honesty and your willingness to say the hard things.

[@bilindalaw-morley161]

I'm really impressed by these comments. Everybody has obviously thought before commenting, and taken care to be respectful whilst being honest

[@simplyjoyfully]

The REAL Bill Reel! I knew nothing of BR and these interviews are giving me an insight into who he is. Excellent!

[@Liz-hr6hf]

This episode is incredibly powerful. Bill’s voice and his honesty are a salve to my soul. There is so much harm done within the church, and I’m grateful to the truth tellers. I hope this gets 1 million views!

[@paulatarver-prof]

I really have enjoyed this playlist of John Dehlin and Bill Reel. You are a good combination that I have been able to listen to without feeling things I have held sacred are being ridiculed in a sacrilegious way. Thanks for your time in sharing and teaching.

[@joeblo7703]

My favorite Mormonism Live! Episode was the one about David Bednar and Wendy Nelson “miracles” talk about the miracles in scheduling in the temple during covid, etc. I listened to that episode twice while painting my upstairs because I loved it so much. So hilarious and fun. Bill, John…I love your content so much. It keeps me sane. 3 years into my. Post-mormon life and I still just love listening to these stories and commentaries. The longer the better! Haha.

[@TheYellowRoseOfTexas]

I love the way Bill Reel thinks!!

[@elan007]

critically, logically ! what a concept!

[@mrs.stephens8744]

Thank you for acknowledging what a hero Grant Palmer was. He is so missed! ❤

[@917hazel]

Religion and spirituality are not synonymous with one another. Excellent interviews🙏

[@SheenaOfTheJungle]

I remember the episode our Bad days, Bill did. It was so powerful for me in the moment I heard it and the place I was. His Honesty was so real and valuable. And I have always been grateful for Bill’s willingness to open and expose his reality as he experiences it. ❤

[@bobbie9984]

Maybe this will help someone: I joined LDS church because my brother was LDS. Was raised in a community of LDS. I was told I shouldn’t go to graduate school instead of church. As a single woman, I never got info from my home visitor except the one night I came home from work and had given myself a facial, dyed my hair and the doorbell rings. Priesthood holder and his family were surprised that I didn’t let them in. Bad timing. We’re they trying to catch me doing good or bad? Anyway, this was the time of the LDS church vs the Equal Rights Amendment. After I learned how the church had organized to put the kibosh on women getting equal rights I wrote Utah and told them I joined a church not a political party. I was called, weeks later, by the Bishop (never met him) and was told how he worried for my eternal soul. I told him I believed the church taught “free will”. That was it. My eternal soul was blessed with two daughters from China and two daughters from Africa. If getting married made you learn to share, believe me, I know how to share. All my daughters are serving their community: a doctor, a Physical Therapy expert, a children’s Hospital food server and a Postal Service worker. I am so proud of all 4 of them-each working and sharing where their talents lay. I’m very happy with my decisions. Hugs.

[@susyhall9406]

This BY FAR one of the most fantastic series in this podcast! I’ve been listening only about 2 years and I’ve been blown away yesterday and today..Bill Reel and John Dehlin THANK YOU for being heroes!! I can’t get enough..

[@Will0wFire]

I knew nothing about Mormonism until I found MSP a few years ago and started listening to people's stories. But: the three things I did know about before i tuned in were the stories about the golden tablets, the seer stone and hat, and polgamy. It boggles my mind that active practicing Mormons don't know all these aspacts about their own history. Its a bit like non-Scientologists knowing about Xenu when its something that's kept secret from Scientologists until they reach level 3 on the "bridge". I agree with Bill that all Mormons should be given all the facts so they can determine whether they want to keep practicing their religion. Very interesting discussions, thank you.

[@rhadpenguin]

There are some things Bill said in this episode that just blew me away. I am so thankful for his contribution to Mormon Stories and helping so many of us find commonalities and community for those who have truly felt ostracized by the church and even family or friends.

[@Kasamira]

This interview was amazing! I’ve never been a Mormon but I really appreciate how you make these incredibly approachable for the audience

[@zupants1]

Where to start, so much to say. Listening to Bills story was extremely therapeutic. I’m excited to start the third part. Deconstructing his story and my own upbringing in the church and what it did to my family has been both helpful, and eye opening. Even after being inactive for years, there was so much damage it did to me that I brought into my marriage, my self esteem, my thought process. Unraveling Mormonism is no joke. It truly takes its toll. I was on antidepressants for a decade, not realizing at the time it was from my Mormon upbringing. There are so many families, like Bill said that are hurting. My side of the family all have broken relationships with one another. My dad a devout temple worker for years will never astray. He will be a faithful servant until his death. Same with my mom. Ward organist and pianist her whole life. It’s their identity. I have three kids of my own with a loving husband. I am so grateful my husband and I didn’t fall into this trap raising kids. But my heart is with those who are torn apart by this. Bill & John, I can’t thank you enough for the time you have spent doing these podcast and being vulnerable enough to share your stories. Ironically I had no idea this podcast existed. I was researching all the BS with Tim Ballard and came across this gem. You have a new donor. All these episodes are extremely therapeutic. Thank you for sharing your stories. ❤

[@MattEoh90]

I truly enjoyed this one! Bill is incredibly insightful and I was completely tuned in from start to finish! Amazing segment!

[@RebeccaRaven]

As a charismatic Christian that graduated to atheism, I found so many similarities to my journey. Thanks, Bill!

[@marilynmayfield777]

This man is truly a learned scholar of his subject and speaks as if he were an actual professor. His excommunication speech was a shocking expose' of everything you would want the 12 men to hear. Such a brave and honorable man! (And I am a NeverMo!)

[@sheliabryant3997]

Bill, I have made many comments on MD & RFM, which I guess were not always "vanilla," but never meant disrespect toward any of your (collective) work. Always appreciate your thorough & systematic dismantling of tales, spotting & never veering from declaring the "irrelevant/unimportant minutiae".

[@mostlyvoid.partiallystars]

100% at feeling so much lightness when finally realizing I no longer believe and I am not going to try anymore. I was not Mormon, I was Methodist, but once I let the all-seeing, all-judging noncorporeal presence go, it was like being 100 pounds lighter. Every day.

[@elan007]

When I 'got it' and broke free of the cult, I literally giggled out loud randomly throughout the day for weeks. I was filled with joy, lightness-of-being, levity!! Same as when I knew the earth is NOT a spinning globe! Keep researching Bill! 😉

[@Vigilance67]

I really agree with Bill Reel that full disclosure and transparency is ‘truth’ and that anything less is deception regardless of the reason. Everything else argued against what Reel was saying, is a form of apologetics or defending hurting others by keeping full truth from them to make informed consent for no other reason than defending the corporation. If those in control/at the top of the food chain are not going to be fully accountable, they are not living up to stating the church is in anyway of highest integrity to be trusted regardless. Truly appreciate Reel standing his ground in this discussion….and somewhat surprised that he got push back from Dehlin on something as basic as truth. And for it to ever be a reason to defend deceit being those men’s incomes, retirements, or anything else of their personal lives now or in the future is ridiculous. When they took the ‘job’ it includes the whole job and the management and integrity required. But then, going back to the beginning of the church, maybe this sort of deception that is excused over and over and hidden, etc, sort of set the stage. Snowball rolling downhill. As a former member and having gone through the heart wrenching unraveling and rebuilding (including the not knowing what I could believe in at all and that damage actually was men damaging God and the truth about everything…and how awful and arrogant that is) this is highest level and foundational importance incomparable to anything else in life especially to those born and raised in the church who know nothing else. It’s a pretty bad earthquake to rebuild from. Thank you Mr.Reel. And I agree with you, admitting mistakes and correcting them is human, lying is intentional whether omission or commission. But I do not agree with defending these men by calling them ‘heroic’ or ‘good’ men to be politically correct it’s just a form of apologetics.

[@Chococatania]

Yeah, I agree. I have a real problem with the word "hero," as well. Because I only see cowardice. To know the truth, and to keep it from people. There are a lot of people who are making real decisions in their lives based on the bullshit of Mormonism, and perhaps even basing their decisions on the "testimonies" of people like Patrick Mason or Terrel Givens. Heroic would be to stand for truth. We wouldn't call anyone who protected any other cult heroic.

[@lj9524]

What a wonderful interview. Thank you for sharing your observations, experiences and analysis. I am sorry the church will not allow for critical thinking and analysis of the church history anc beliefs. The truth will set the believers free of the false teachings and bizarre treatments.

[@sammydavis606]

I love listening to this podcast. It makes me want to see more...and if you ever were to bring David Archuleta (though he may not feel comfortable with some of his family still being active) I'd watch the hell outta that

[@runwillt]

Instant Top 5 post deconstruction Mormon Stories podcast ever. Truths bombs dropped every minute without holding back for sensitive ears.

[@fredlarge8209]

You guys are the best, appreciate you both.

[@caz2870]

It's sad that you can not feel safe to express the "unravelled truth" when the scriptures tell us ....seek and ye shall find...'!

[@iamjustsaying1]

"Truth matters!" 👏

[@carriebowden8076]

When you talked about the raft...I feel like Bill is just adding more planks so when the people on the side get their turn to go across it, by pulling in the rope that helped him get across will carry more. I imagine each plank has an issue and those that find the issue stand there. I don't think he is destroying the raft.

[@puppy7505]

I like your thought process here. It made me think of a slightly different analogy: Yes, he destroyed the raft, but he is using the planks to build a permanent bridge.

[@kohlstrong]

The rapid fire qs near the end of this ep were AWESOME!!

[@JustMi14]

I enjoyed very much this episode. Listening to Bill discuss his journey and the whys and wherefores of it has been very interesting. I was taken aback though when you talked about the progress for women that resulted from Ordain Women, and that the priesthood session of conference has been discontinued. It hasn’t really. This last conference (April 2023), the Saturday evening session didn’t have any women speak, only men. In fact, in all five sessions only two women spoke and one said a prayer. We were better off when there was a separate women’s session of conference. Women are being erased. We are going backward.

[@susanwilliams70]

Deconstruction is so hard, yes. And years later I still haven't revealed to some TBM friends that I've left for good. 😢

[@karencross3815]

1 hour 53 min. John says mormonism is good for first half of life. No sir, it was not. I made irrevocable choices that involved a bunch of kids in my 20's with no experience at life. It wasn't good for them either. When I completely altered my choices to do what this f----------g church told me God wanted, my soul died. I can never alter that path now, only try at 60 to live the fullest I can with what I have left. I got married young and had kids young when I didn"t know anything about anything. As I look at the two wedding anmouncements of 2 friend's kids, I feel sick about their choice to marry at 22 and 19 because "god's plan' for them is true.

[@Chococatania]

Agreed. It really isn't good for anyone. If you're a woman, if you're not white, if you're gay it isn't good - for obvious reasons. But it also teaches the heteronormative white male some pretty terrible things, too. ... As cliche as it may be, the whole thing is a toxic cult.

[@terishaw33]

So many good things, Bill Reel. So nice to hear truth.

[@MormonDiscussion]

you are welcome!

[@jeannemarie5908]

Bill Reel you are a good man.

[@susyhall9406]

Listening while taking my leaves and sobbing my eyes out..smiling. My neighbors must think I’m nuts. I can’t thank you ENOUGH🥹

[@cj-cw7wi]

"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." Winston Churchill

[@cj-cw7wi]

And Churchill also said, "In wartime, the truth is so precious she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies."

[@HaleighMarkar]

1:55:00 this is SUCH a good point! I would argue that every active member of the LDS church believes the church provides more good than harm & is personally a blessing in their life. We are conditioned to view it as such! We are programmed from infancy to view the leaders & the temple & the teachings as true, good, and the MOST important thing we do on earth. It isn’t until you are out that you see the damaging teachings, the sexism, the racism, the brainwashing, the lies and deceit, the insults and inappropriateness. It’s great wearing clear glasses compared to rose colored.

[@ashleyvanblarcom6344]

Love this so far, only 56 mins. in, which is at that point I'm currently commenting. When John is talking about the raft metaphor. I understand what he is saying, and even when something is harmful in ways doesn't mean good can't come from it or impact someone positively for a time. But considering the raft metaphor, its like the raft has knives attached to it so maybe it can gt you a little down the river but not with out inflicting severe pain. Bill (or anyone speaking out) shouldn't have their voices silenced because it might make others uncomfortable with the truth. Those people are welcome to only consume church sanctioned material if they are that afraid of confronting truths that they might not be able to handle. But becaue the truth is scary or uncomfortable doesn't mean we don't owe it to ourselves and each other to demand more fro those who proclaim to love us and are in leadership positions over people.

[@Liz-hr6hf]

Bill is spot on!! Great interview!

[@TVs_Brent]

i'm one of those never-mormon (hell, never even religious) weirdos who enjoy mormon stories. and holy hannah, i cam eout of this with the absolute utmost respect for bill reel. the world needs a lot more people who are as passionate and willing to put it all on the line for telling the truth just as it is. whatever comes, i hope nothing but the best for this man.

[@lhook7915]

Powerful story. Thank you for sharing!

[@caseyjude5472]

Again, SO good. Onto part 3!

[@carolinea3899]

I absolutely needed the soft landing in between leaving the church, it was definitely helpful. For me it was Questions from the Closet, but it was less answering questions I had and more empathy and love from fellow queer people. I’ve moved on now but I’m grateful for them.

[@DevilsRavioli]

John…I appreciate the question you continually ask your guests…along the lines of…’How do you reconcile the genuine good the Church has done for you and your disaffection?’ It is a difficult question to answer once you accept the nuances of Mormonism. We all must confront the good, the bad, and the ugly. This confrontation is the fuel that carries you through the stages of faith. On another note…’the line’ you two refer to (criticizing the living brethren) reveals all too much about the foundation of the LDS church: loyalty and obedience. The neoapologists’ fear of getting anywhere near that line is so blatantly evident in all their discourse. So much could be accomplished with direct and precise confrontation of this root issue of the Church. Frankness should not be thwarted for the cause of bliss.

[@wendihosac297]

Incredibly Helpful!!! The finale list of reasoning about truth claims is succinct.

[@dianethulin1700]

I am sitting here listening and when PropH8 is mentioned I feel angry. I still get upset when I hear it brought up. At that time the missionaries were visiting me and I always fed them knowing they don’t eat well and hoping my family members on missions have someone feeding them. I told them I was opposed with how the church was involved in politics. No! They told me I was mistaken. Then they tried to give me tickets to see The Raiders if I went to church. Of course I turned them down! I’m Niners all the way!

[@lauraparis2023]

John I love your long interviews. But it's to hard to hear you trying to find and defended the good of the church. Sometimes I have to go away and come up latter to finish with the episode

[@mormonstories]

I understand. It’s complicated.

[@OssieRichards]

IMHO John is discovering the core goodness within himself. When John truly accepts that “inner truth” - which can unravel the entanglement he finds with the church, he won’t need to find it out there. Fortunately he is at the right place at this time because like attract like. Most have come to the conclusion that something is very wrong. With this powerful forum, even if John is guided elsewhere, this 20 plus years of info hopefully will be here for others, and inevitably someone will pick up where he left off.

[@Kasamira]

Wow. I just got to the end and of I feel mentally drained, I can’t imagine how you both felt. It was a thorough, wonderful episode and I hope you both felt a little lighter after it ❤

[@penguinmama7516]

Outstanding interview! Excellent job...

[@Nicole543321]

I understand what John is pointing out about there having been benefits to Bill's life from Mormonism, and that this has been something said in multiple interviews. But from an outside (not religious) perspective I think something that gets lost in seeing it like that is self agency. There are people who do good things and bad things and all mixtures in between, and although the church may have helped them through a struggle they had or a future they projected for themselves, ultimately they were the ones who turned it around, not the church. The church was there, no doubt, but theres no way to say that a myriad of other things couldn't have been there too and that they wouldn't have ended up the same amazing person. As many good people as the church has, there are bad, the same as in all religions or secular people. And I think that people deserve to own the good that they've done, not have it belong to a church. It can absolutely be a part of the picture, but at the end of the day, Bill painted it. (Also, totally understand John is just asking so that multiple sides of the story are told, just offering a response back that I haven't really heard in many interviews)

[@phoenixrising5338]

This is an excellent episode. I'm only partway through it. It's going to take a lot of time to complete. Just so much that's accurate to digest. So much I'd love to say about so much of it! Posted two comments and then realized I was going to have to collect my thoughts and truncate or there would be way too many comments so deleted them and trying again. I've never understood why the church has such a visceral and negative reaction against truthtellers. It's especially odd when juxtaposed with the church's constant refrain of "we seek the truth." But I would say it's been evident since I was about six that no, the church does not like truthtellers at all. I had mixed feelings about Sunstone and Dialogue. Some writers and efforts I loved and some I just found so esoteric and academic I didn't care. But it was chilling to thinking to see them shut down. There is nowhere in the church you can go as an essentially believing member with questions. There hasn't really been my entire life. I'd say it's getting worse, not better. My current ward feels like I've entered a time warp to the 1950s. It's a very intolerant, misogynistic, anti-everything but white, orthodox, uber traditional, all-is-well-in-Zion, do-as-you're-told, authoritarian, patriarchal, no thinking allowed atmosphere. In case it's not obvious, I loathe it. I think some things are very rotten here. I don't understand how people get through seminary without major questions. I love history and have studied various history subjects as a hobby my entire life, mostly not the church after an initial short-lived interest in church history. It was pretty obvious to me early on that church history had some glaring gaps, omissions, and unanswered questions everyone was ignoring. Questions were not encouraged, although I had one seminary teacher I think wasn't enthused about the party line. He kept slipping me books or info. However, I stopped reading church history as a serious hobby a long time ago. It was clear there was a lot of fudging going on and that I was never going to get straight answers about anything. I utterly fail to understand how anyone could have done the slightest amount of study and not know that Joseph Smith was a polygamist or about the church and racist attitudes or about various versions of things or about a lot of stuff. Maybe that's because I'm not a convert and my family talked about a lot of things openly. Maybe it's because I did do a fair amount of reading for awhile. It's stunning how little a lot of members know. I know enough that I have been in a position several times of saying, "no, what you're teaching isn't accurate historically." That's never appreciated. As a group, members of the church by and large seem really stubborn. I have no idea what to do with people who just won't listen when you can accurately quote from or reference church-accepted source materials. Mostly, I gave up on them a long time ago. They don't want truth. Where I part company with some who leave is I don't care about some things they get very worked up over. I read the CES letter. It didn't impress me. I've also read a lot about related things: archeology, paleontology, DNA, etc., and I do think there are possible explanations for some things that are overlooked. I've never, ever believed that the American Indians would have 100% Jewish DNA -- that's not at all likely given the paleontological history of this continent -- so it's ridiculous to have ever claimed that or believed it. There are things in the CES letter that just don't stand up for multiple reasons. So I don't think it's a very good attacking point. I also don't go along with jumping from the church has some problems to there is no God and no Christ. And I don't believe Joseph Smith made up the Book of Mormon. Not for faith reasons but because it's incredibly difficult to invent and write something like this, especially in the time frame he's supposed to have done it. Try doing it yourself and you'll see. I don't care that he ran around looking for treasure. I've always figured the church was less than truthful about his involvement in that because he was poor, he admitted he was hugely tempted by the wealth of the gold, and if you accept he suddenly had the ability to see things, at least sometimes, would he be able to resist trying to help his family financially? I doubt it. It seemed likely that his character and past actions were consistent with treasure hunting. Should the church lie about stuff? Absolutely not. That's a big stumbling block for me. So is polygamy. I've heard the excuses and rationales all my life. I don't buy them. I think a lot of natural man got involved. So are a lot of things involving arbitrary, high-handed behavior that hurts people and appears to be more the decisions of men in power than really Christ-directed. I think what it comes down to for people raised in the church, especially, is that there is always a dilemma: if this is true, then we risk our eternal families and happiness. If it's not true, then it's bunk. But it's very, very difficult to eradicate the "your eternal family is at risk" programming. In the end, it really does come down to a leap of faith because there is no empirical evidence and there isn't going to be any. Side note: at close to the same time Elder Holland's secretary was contacting Bill I got a rather irritated note from Elder Holland telling me that he didn't have a secretary. I'd written to him -- also on the basis that he was giving talks that seemed understanding of questions -- about a pretty heartbreaking family matter. I was disconcerted to get a rather snappish response informing me that he did not have a secretary/gatekeeper, as I'd assumed. Other than a platitude, that was the entire response. I found it incredibly trivial given the nature of the trial I'd referenced.

[@HomestarJr]

Hi John. I take issue with you saying that the church is good for people at the beginning of their lives. I think the statement should have been qualified as it can be good for some. I understand you feel it was good for you. It sounds like joining at 17 was also a good thing for Bill. I was forced by my parents to give up on a track scholarship at a non-Mormon school because my mom wanted me to go to BYU. I’m an introvert who was forced on a proselytizing mission at a time when I should have been pursuing my dreams. I was strongly encouraged, almost forced by leaders I was told I must respect, to marry early and father children. The good things about being raised Mormon were not exclusive to Mormonism. I love your podcast. I love Bill Reel’s million podcasts. This isn’t an angry comment. I don’t think you were being insensitive and I’m not offended. But the Mormon church was absolutely not good for me at the start of my life.

[@mormonstories]

Sorry I wasn’t more careful.

[@HomestarJr]

@@mormonstories it’s a planned out conversation with spontaneous remarks, and you’re still trying to be a somewhat safe space for questioning believers. There was no need for an apology. You more than anyone has advocated for people of all ages to at least know what they are getting into. One question though. Assuming the church actually is beneficial for the first half of life, how would you set up a system in which people gain the benefits of church organization and community in their youth and early adulthood but be able to shed it as they become more mature? Wouldn’t this require non believing parents to keep up appearances while their kids were growing? Even if the church was good to me, once I saw the harm it did for others I would not be able to pretend I believed in it convincingly enough to raise my kids in it. I think the church needs a lot more reform before we could move to such a system.

[@Kel_leSurprise]

Bill, you would make an excellent lawyer. Your citation of the Mormon definition of a lie/falsehood was masterful.

[@Sarah-sc9ev]

I thought the church was good for me as a youth until now when I recognize the harmful messaging and the damage it has done to 1:55:17 me as a female at the age of 42

[@pacificislandgirl]

As a non-Mormon, This video has left me more confused. How can one admire an organization, religious or not, when you realize the whole foundation was built and continue on lies. In addition. idolizing those who spread those lies, if you see the lies they do too.

[@merricat3025]

??? I get not saying anything because of what you can lose; family, jobs, money. I just don't get believing it or visibly supporting it. Never mo, too.

[@Chococatania]

as an ex-mo I agree with you a million percent. I'm not a very black-and-white thinker, but I have little tolerance for an organization that knowingly lies and literally ruins so many peoples lives.

[@utah20gflyer76]

I don’t think you have a good grasp yet on how humans form and hold beliefs. It isn’t a very logical process. People believe what they want to believe, often because it benefits them in some way. The belief is formed first and then the justification is formed after. People in the church including the leaders actually believe they are doing good. If you say otherwise they will assume you are bad because you are challenging “good”. It is important to learn about human nature because if someone else can easily convince themselves that lies are truth then you and I can as well! When I hear someone rail against another person or group I often think they would be better served looking inward for more self knowledge rather than projecting their limited understanding outward. Listening to Bills story I can see a lot of unprocessed trauma and dysfunction that hasn’t been resolved yet. A lot of what he blames the church for is actually the responsibility of his parents and then himself in increasing amounts as he became an adult. Spending time blaming the church is preventing him from making progress he could make if he sat down to wrestle with some uncomfortable truths. I grew up as a Mormon and still attend church every week to support my wife and children who still believe. I lost my faith maybe 8 years ago although my story is significantly different than Bills or anyone else’s I’ve ever heard for that matter. Human beings and an institution like the LDS church are extremely complex and I doubt I have the understanding to judge them. All people and institutions are full of lies. Until I feel like I do understand I will watch and observe and think. To do otherwise is to do harm to myself, cutting myself off from progress.

[@pacificislandgirl]

@@utah20gflyer76 Oh I do have a good grasp - all my immediate family were inducted into Mormorosm except me. I could not accept all of the impossible things presented by the missionaries. And those members took after my children when I was working overseas. One did join but left when they figured it out. People staying in and getting others to join when one knows it is all fantasy is not what I can accept. As far as John goes yes I do believe he still has resolved issues which in part could be that he too has indoctrinated others to join when he knew all of it was a lie.

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

I enjoyed John Dehlin's questions in this interview. I thought they were insightful.

[@soloban81]

Best part of Bill’s excommunication recording is where he mentions SWK and masturbation makes you gay and then says if that’s true then we are probably all a little bit gay 😂😂😂

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

That's awesome! 😂

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

@@bodytrainer1crane730 For some reason whenever I recall SWK and the things he said like that, Norm MacDonald's joke on Conan starts replaying in my mind: NM: "In my memoirs, it says that I'm a deeply closeted gay man." Conan: "What? You're gay? I didn't know that!" NM: "I'm not gay!!! I said I'm deeply closeted." SWK: "Masturbation makes you gay." Questioner: "What? It does? How do you know that?" SWK: "I'm not gay. I said masturbation makes you gay."

[@juliejefferies786]

I know this is old, but I'm shocked at John pushing back so hard at Bill not feeling the guilt & shame John did when he stopped believing. I think you got it John, but Bill got to choose his exit from the church & that made it clearer than an excommunication.

[@DjeauxSheaux]

I keep hearing this sentiment that there are uncomfortable questions without answers. The problem is, there are answers. And the answers are what they apparently are.