Mormon Church in Decline in Utah and Worldwide? w/ Dr. Ryan Cragun | Ep. 1847

[@BethW2112]

We are "Never Mormons" but my step daughter is a recovering Mormon. We appreciate Mormon Stories so much, we feel equipped with more knowledge to support her recovery.

[@mimimonster]

You sound like amazing, supportive parents! Love this! ❤

[@MrRbrim]

Your use of the term recovering Mormon is perfect. Like recovery from addiction or a disease. I will be sure to refer to my self as a recovering Mormon often. Here is websters definition of recovering "A return to a normal state of health, mind, or strength." "The action or process of regaining possession or control of something stolen or lost." So True😁

[@davidbailey4318]

I was a missionary in the British Mission in the 1960s and remained active in the church for several more years until I gave up trying to plug all the holes in the teachings. Jeff Holland was my first district leader. Quentin Cook was at the end of his mission and was a counselor to President T. Bowering Woodberry (sp?). Kiddie baptism was in full swing and from what I knew was something that started in England not long before I arrived. We were encouraged to go to the parks with a softball and a bat and "teach" the kids to play the American sport. We would then teach a very short lesson and invite the kids that were interested to go into London to the Hyde Park Chapel and be baptized. Jeff Holland had the district van so he made the trip weekly with a van load of boys. Most of the missionaries hated the practice because it put a lot of pressure on us to meet lofty baptism goals. This was happening throughout the mission as well as in the other missions in England and Scotland. Within a few months of my arrival President Woodberry was released by President David O. McKay and replaced by Elder Marion D. Hanks of the Council of Seventy. His order from President McKay was to find out what was going on and if the conversions that were being claimed by the hundreds were not legitimate the practice was to stop. Our mission immediately dropped from a couple of hundred baptisms a week to a handful. President Hanks would interview every prospective convert and if they did not meet with his approval they were sent home dry. The missionaries all greatly welcomed the change because we knew our numbers were a fraud. I became an assistant to President Hanks and had two amazing experiences during the next few months. President McKay's two counselors were Hugh B. Brown and Henry D. Moyle at the time. My first experience was with Henry D. Moyle who I picked up at the airport and brought to the Mission headquarters. He was with his son, who was the current President of the French Mission. President Moyle was sitting in the front seat and he started to interrogate me about the huge drop in our baptisms since President Hanks took over. He was livid and at a couple of points had to be talked down by his son, who was in the back seat. He actually beat his fist on the dash board of the car we were in. When I had a chance later that day I explained what happened to President Hanks. When the two of them met in President Hank's off later that day there were fireworks. Needless to say, our new mission policy did not chan ge. A few months later President Hugh B. Brown came to town and I picked him up at the airport. Apparently he had previously been a President of the British Mission so he wanted me to drive him past some places which represented memories for him. He was a wonderful man and had only the highest regard for our work in the mission and for President Hanks. After I returned home I remained active in the church for several years and stayed close to the Hanks family. He was an outstanding leader and a wonderful human being. I went to law school because I wanted to be just like him. I never again heard of "kiddie" baptisms until your current podcast. It certainly could have started back up but I was unaware of it. Despite leaving the church and being a pretty strong voice opposing it I have never been excommunicated. As far as I know I am still counted as one of those 17 million plus members. I am a very active Christ follower and often teach classes on the fallacies of the Mormon church.

[@watchdog8058]

wow! i think you need your own episode!!

[@NeilAldridge-jp7rl]

thank you for your truth story 👍👍👍 God bless

[@cynthiaroark1778]

Can you tell the Mormon church that you want to be taken off their list of members? Every person counts. Make their “church” smaller.

[@janet-Spirit_of_the_Living_God]

Please have your name removed (or at least try, friends said it took 3 tries).

[@justinmasterson4611]

Sounds like you need to go on Mormon stories and tell your story sounds like a good one

[@DanA.-jo4sg]

There are economic reasons for the decline too, which I don't recall he went over. It's not only time consuming to be a Mormon, but very expensive too. Having so many kids while paying 10% and engaging in free labor schemes is not doable for most people now. I don't expect the LDS to remedy this.

[@jeffk464]

I knew a Christian couple that didn't go to church because it was just too expensive. But according to their religion they didn't have to go to church, they just had to believe.

[@justkiddin84]

Well, LDS can go to church and not give, but I’m sure they are pressured to do it constantly. Money, MONEY, MOOONNNEEEY!

[@amygreen758]

Yes great point. One needs to have expendable income to be an orthodox, card carrying member. Or they have to be willing to trade lots of free service for that card.

[@justkiddin84]

@@paulamortensen36 😂Ok, dude, sure. I guess yo never wanted the Temple recommend. We have seen over and over and over statements from various church officials that tithing is soooo important. That money goes to charity!

[@johnhorner1969]

I don’t think monetary contribution is much of a factor. I think it’s more lack of transparency, and financials transparency. The younger generations are happy to put out and volunteer or contribute to causes they believe in but they aren’t a fan of bigotry and they aren’t a fan of meaningless groveling old men that don’t have much to say and they are skeptical of things that don’t have an explanation. When the answers to hard questions is shut up and have faith, we’re out.

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

Aw, the Great Mormon Deception - it just keeps getting better and better! ♥️♥️♥️

[@Mrs.Robinsons]

Best multi level marketing to heaven scam in Utah !

[@PracticalMagic-f5p]

I love a good academic who can speak clearly and explain concepts to the rest of us. Thank you Dr. Cragun.

[@mimimonster]

The funniest thing from my mission: we taught a guy who the elders interviewed and baptized. We thought we did a great job and he sounded very sincere and authentic. Literally, as he was coming out of the water, he said “now I’m half Mormon, half Catholic”! 🤦🏽‍♀️ It was then I realized that despite how receptive he seemed, despite how sincere he was and that he passed the interview with flying colors that he, in fact, didn’t “get” it. Just one of the baptisms I had where, in retrospect, I felt like they agreed to be baptized to get us to go away and never had any intention of being full time members

[@TexasTornado66]

lol, I was baptized catholic as a baby and Mormon at 8, I literally say I’m 1/2 Catholic and 1/2 Mormon.

[@Mindy14]

This was an awesome discussion! Would love to see Ryan back!

[@joeblo7703]

I was a missionary in Chile in the early 2000’s. Activity rate is 10% or less, consistently, in any ward I was in. It is abysmal. Since I left Chile, the number of stakes has decreased by like, 30 stakes in the whole country. One of the supposedly highest baptizing areas in the whole world is shrinking because the great majority of those who get baptized don’t actually ever become fully functional members. They don’t even self identify as mormons or latter day saints, even only a year later. This is a pretty consistent theme throughout Latin America and the Philippines, where growth is supposedly rolling forth like wildfire. It isn’t. Its a beautiful sight to see.🎉

[@brettlee2164]

I was also in Chile, early 2000sl. All of your statements are in line with my experience.

[@ywf2891]

Pretty much the same in Brazil 😂

[@rhondaalbrecht]

Even though I don't identify as Mormon, and consider Mormonism a cult, this is also consistent with mainstream Christianity. The Bible calls them 'Laodiceans'. They'll claim membership, belief, but do nothing more to pursue that personal relationship with God Most High, through His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

[@justkiddin84]

I wondered how new signers would overcome the Catholic iron glove in South America.

[@roberteaston6413]

@@justkiddin84 Since the late 1960's evangelical Christianity has made great progress in South America.

[@Richard.Atkinson]

There are currently 3,521 LDS stakes in the world. If they were adding 10 per week (the minimum "double digit" number), that would be 520 added per year. At that rate, the number of stakes would more than double in 7 years. In reality, for the entire past decade, they have created 400 new stakes. That's a whole order of magnitude lower than what was claimed by Holland.

[@dl1130]

The church is now reducing the number of members need to form a Stake as well as the number of wards in a Stake. They are also lowering the number of members needed to create a Ward. This way they can show that the number of Wards and Stakes are increasing thus showing the membership that the church must be true! Look at our growth!

[@carriereid4234]

But outside of the US the numbers needed for stakes/wards are rising...watch out for more closures...UK lost 4 stakes from a total of 44 last year. But of course 3 other 'new' stakes were 'created' with all the reshuffling. Still only 40 stakes in the UK at the end of 2023 though 😂

[@Mrs.Robinsons]

They are the Best case scenarios for Co-Dependency and Extroverts ! Once a month bearing of testimony for the Mob mentality algorithms. They NEED to play the facade of "fake it till ya make it"

[@DanA.-jo4sg]

LDS in 30 years will just be a corporate real estate company, with a small group of hardcore members.

[@NeilAldridge-jp7rl]

hopefully

[@dadsarepeopletoo3785]

And they help no one with their billions.

[@kellybrandon1179]

I give less than 20. The keystone fell. The church will be a temple remodeling company.

[@charlesmendeley9823]

But at one point they will be taxed.

[@Mrs.Robinsons]

Absolutely !! Its only 195 yrs old to begin with. We aren't buying it any more! I was a temple mormon for decades and finally out! Name number and all. 5 of my 9 siblings as well ~

[@benjamingardea4511]

Imagine if Netflix reported the way the church does. Every person who ever signed up for a free trial regardless of whether they eventually cancelled would be counted as a current subscriber.

[@Mrs.Robinsons]

I had my name and LD$/Auschwitz number REMOVED !

[@shches8480]

I love these sociological deep dives into Mormonism.

[@PatrickThreewit]

So do I!

[@Mrs.Robinsons]

Its only 195 yrs old and already falling !

[@johnhorner1969]

My favorite Mormon stat is that the youth are leaving and resigning in DROVES. I’m in my late thirties and an enormous majority of my peers are gone or leaving. Which is great. Can’t wait for the church to age out and those still left in twenty years will be wondering what happened.

[@MyAngels5]

Fascinating discussion. I am not or have been never been Mormon or ever will be, but certainly have an interest in this religion especially since Vallow Daybell case.

[@robertbarney8635]

As a missionary on a Native American reservation we baptized a man we discovered had been baptized several times. We asked him why. He just said he sinned again and really wanted to get all cleaned up again. He did that with other religions too.😂

[@alexanderseliunyn3424]

😅😅😅😅Whatever makes him feel cleaner and holier 😂 I guess - is good for him. 😅😅😅😅

[@dorimosher9800]

My family lived in the same house for nine years. During that nine years, they created 3 new wards, that we always ended up having the boundaries move us to a different ward. The wards were created out of dying wards and the boundaries changed and the names changed, but we had the same amount of wards. In Stake Conference they always announced them as "new wards have been created", but all they did was shift a couple of boundaries and call them new. We still had the same amount of wards in the Stake. They would usually rename the Stake as well and describe it as a "new Stake". Have you ever known a narcissist? The LDS church treats its members like a narcissist treats his victims. Gaslight, manipulating, outright lies and then denying them, never allowing your needs to be a priority, but their needs are always a priority and they ALWAYS have to be right. They can never be held accountable. They'll use you up and then toss you away. The LDS church is a prime example of narcissism.

[@garybowler5946]

Great analogy, the church fits the narcissistic profile very well. Today with the greed and fraud they have sociopathic symptoms too.

[@ilikecheese8888]

This is similar to what they did to make it seem like the church was growing in Italy while I was there on my mission there in 2013-2015. They combined branches so they would be big enough to be called wards, and then when they had done that enough in a district it could become a stake. They made a big deal out of my mission being the first mission in Europe outside of the UK with only stakes, but it was manufactured. And it hurt the membership there. I served in two wards that had recently become wards by combining branches and in both cases most of the people who were from the branch that didn't get picked to host the ward stopped going to church because it was too difficult. They went from a 15 minute drive or bus ride to 30 minutes to an hour by car or train.

[@lisahance]

I'm a data geek and former Mormon, and found this episode fascinating!

[@trevanon7450]

Me too except I'm never mormon 🤣🤣

[@dianebeall8982]

Me too,

[@lenkaiqus9844]

An amazing episode, thank you so much! As someone who grew up in an atheist, post-communist country, I find these these deep dives absolutely fascinating. And even though math and numbers in general scare me, Dr Cragun did an excellent job explaining the methods used in his reasearch - I have enjoyed every second of the episode. And I have already found a website where I can get his books even here in Europe, so I have just ordered his book "Beyond a doubt". I can't wait to read it!

[@Christina-Claire]

Great theological and sociological discussions. Would have been cool to be taught by Dr Cragan.

[@craigthomas2497]

Ward Clerks do know their numbers. Budgets are funded based on average weekly attendance. These are honest people who won't pad the numbers, but they surely won't miss any attendees, because the budget is based on that. Before anyone claims they are not honest these are volunteers, true believers they do what they can. Their statistics on attendance are almost as good as your local school, just not broken down by specific individuals.

[@connorlongson5097]

Couldnt have been said better!!

[@OuttaMyMind911]

I came to say a similar sentiment. This counting is honestly going to be a pretty darn reliable number that they have in every single ward. They know almost exactly what attendance is in any area and they have decades of these numbers. To all of a sudden try an excuse of not being able to trust the counts is a poor attempt at covering that they simply don’t want anyone to see what’s really happening. The other odd part is if we do trust that excuse at face value, then how are we supposed to expect any trust in the numbers they do put out that try to show good growth? You can’t have it both ways.

[@elaineg60]

lol, I’m a statistics nerd; I’ve driven friends and family absolutely batty for many years. When I was in pre-med, (and knew I wanted to go into research at some point), I remember arguing with my mentor, primary advisor and dear friend; whether about taking another stat course instead of P Chem; OR statistics in politics and the Social Sciences, including religion. I was older than most of my classmates, had 3 children and had been an RN-Paramedic already. I was the same age as many of my professors, so we had these neat relationships where we debated more issues than the upcoming Organics exam…religion and politics were at the top of the list. Even then, in the early 90’s, in our Southern City, organized religion was seeing an exodus. What was fascinating to me as a retired/recovering Catholic with many LDS relatives, was the conversations with missionaries who would proselytize in the campus Union as we would sit and eat at lunchtime. One of the professors was ExMo, and when they would tell us how the local wards were growing exponentially, Carol would let them know that wasn’t true and the number of wards had actually decreased. The poor missionaries…I actually feel sorry for these poor kids, many born into LDS and certainly not used to debating with academics. And this was during the early infancy of the internet, most people had NO idea what we were talking about when we mentioned our Usenet groups or even email. We introduced a few missionaries to the freenet we ran from our city’s public library and assured them that reaching out to people, as well as doing research into their faith-and others, would soon be much easier, and accessible to everyone in their own homes. They looked at us like we were crazy…but thought they could use this “new” medium called the internet to bring more people into their faith. I’m typing this and listening…the reason for all of the new Temples: to *maintain the delusion* of growth. Scientology is doing the same thing. We see the MLM’s so popular in the LDS “corridor” doing the same thing. Give people the illusion of growth and expansion..or as my LDS Cousin said, “it’s about INTENTION”. Unfortunately, this obviously isn’t sustainable

[@pamelatd]

I'm in the lost members repository! They kept trying to get my new address but I was living in a hotel and didn't want people coming by. And after that I was living in an RV. My parents are awesome and refused to give my information to them. Finally some missionary from SLC emailed me and I explained that I was homeless and didn't have a physical address. I wasn't homeless, I had a wonderful RV, but we were moving every 6 months and I didn't want to attend. I haven't heard from them since I hope it stays that way.

[@LoverofSunflowernBees]

You’re running away? What happened to you? This is all about people don’t want to follow the Ten Commandments if that’s the case then just leave. I wish this would stop lying.. and hating on these churches but God is watching..

[@pamelatd]

@@LoverofSunflowernBees Nothing happened to me. I'm not running away I'm living my life the way I want. I did leave, they kept harassing me. Just because I was baptized as a child doesn't mean the church needs to know where I'm at all the damn time. If I want the church they're super easy to find. Watching is all god does if he exists.

[@cynthiaejiogu8442]

Sorry missed live but will be part of replay crew!

[@trsnomis6471]

I appreciate this podcast and Mormon Stories in general. I am also very appreciative for the podcasts that deal with the lives of those who have been negatively affected by church affiliation. It gives hope to those who are trying to find real peace outside of Mormonism. As you can tell I’m still in just such a pursuit. In my case I find it very hard to deal with being lied to and about.

[@beoneB1]

"If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not truth, it ought to be harmed." J. Reuben Clark

[@michelep.7249]

The book Meditation for Dummies by Stephan Bodian taught me mantra meditation which benefited me spiritually 10x more than the Mormon church did. This book also taught me that feeling anger, jealousy, pride and fear are not evil. I tried suppressing these feelings for years because of what I was taught in the Mormon church. It was a relief to give myself permission to feel these feelings until they go away rather than trying to suppress them. I quit going to church because I was tired of being taught that my feelings are evil. No one goes around saying Christ is so compassionate, Christ can't feel His feelings. I am glad I found the book Meditation for Dummies before I found the CES letter. The teachings in Meditation for Dummies helped bolster me spiritually so I was no longer dependent on the Mormon church for my spiritual needs. The CES bolstered my faith that I did the right thing when I quit going to church in 2009.

[@dedeldot]

We have a combined issue here in the State. Outsiders moving in LDS or not. Combined with not accounting for inactive members. That have "left the Church" but remain on the books. How many members will go thru the motion and pain of getting your membership removed. All of the Temples and Churches that continue to be built in Utah. Kinda makes me feel like the Scientologist and all of the empty buildings they built. Great episode.

[@justkiddin84]

I understood that you just had to basically send in a letter or form to be removed. And right? What are they going to do with the buildings?

[@jeffk464]

Its good for Utah, the Mormon church has too much influence over the government. Separation of church and state, its imperative for life in the US. I don't care if people are Mormon, but I do care if the government is Mormon.

[@dedeldot]

@jeffk464 oh I absolutely agree.

[@theghostinthemirror8158]

@@jeffk4641000000% took the words out of my mouth. Be as Mormon as you like. Once you’ve got a Mormon _government_ it’s _everyone’s_ problem

[@ZakMakoff]

Very Enlightening episode... Certainly on my Top 10 List!

[@shaycollier2090]

Thank you so much for giving us INFORMATION. Still working through my deconstruction process and it's ROUGH. Watching your videos have brought up some hard things and many of which I'm needing to process, even being out of it(not officially off the books YET) for a while now. But I can't tell you how much it means to me hear the truth. Thank you for being honest! Thank you!

[@isabel_hendrix]

Ahhh this is one of the most fascinating episodes ever!! Please have Dr Cragun back for sure!!! Cannot wait to read (or listen on audio book hopefully) to his book!!! Wowwww. This is such a good episode, what a banger for the start to 2024b ❤🎉🎉🎉

[@melorca1962]

BTW about what Ryan says on the 39:52-40:10 point, that Jehovah's Witnesses only count those who do the 40 hours per month of publishing. JWs have always counted all members who do some publishing. The minimum may have been like 1 hour per month or less if you are elderly. And as Ryan mentions, they did recently change that so that publishers no longer report the specific hours. Publishers are instead asked to just check a box to indicate that they did some publishing during the month. The requirement to do a specific amount of hours has always been only for those who register themselves as "auxiliary pioneers" (I think this is something like 30 hours per month nowadays) or "regular pioneers" (this may be 50 hours per month). It is correct that only active publishers are counted in the active membership list. A publisher would be considered "inactive" if they have not reported any hours for 6 months. That the census shows a lot more JWs in Mexico than what the JWs report seems to be because there are quite a few who are "inactive" but self-identify as JWs in the census.

[@markpb4767]

I've transferred my attention from abuses of scientology to abuses of Mormon church. It's a much higher number

[@watchdog8058]

yes, scientology is fascinating too! i love learning about the different religions, backgrounds, etc.

[@Mrs.Robinsons]

mormonsMurder and Mayhem Ive lived it, being drug through USA & Mexico-LD$>FLD$ RLD$> CLD$

[@gracebe235]

I remember being told that anywhere from a little over 100, to over 200 people (especially when a missionary is leaving or coming back), attend on Sunday…..but that our Ward actually had about 600-650 members. There is not enough room in the chapel for even 300! So maybe they should go by the saying; ‘If you build it, they will come’. I have seen people walk out and leave when they couldn’t find a place to sit with their families. Just poor planning! Oooh, but build more temples! Also, one former Stake President asked me if I knew how many people were Temple recommend holders. I guessed that at least half….maybe even 80%. But he said, ‘Nope’! Only 10% of all of the members are paying a full tithe and qualifying for a Temple recommend! I was blown away! I always got the impression that nearly everyone paid a full tithe and had a Temple recommend!

[@aBrewster29]

Two immediate thoughts: First, the Church hesitates to report clerks’ figures because they’re “unreliable” and instead reports figures even more dubious that just happen to be favorable? Second, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with keeping records active to age 110. It’s also a simple data exercise to exclude any “missing” members over the age of average life expectancy from reported figures. It’s so transparent to see that the Church is erring in its own favor. Just another demonstration of the Church’s struggle with honesty.

[@mormonstories]

So true.

[@andrewsuryali8540]

​@@randyjordan5521You've just perfectly explained why the church itself can't rely on ward clerk counts for its internal statisticals. It's a problem of their own making, but this is basically exactly the same problem Chinese premier Wen Jiabao had when he complained about the unreliable regional GDP growth figures he kept getting.

[@lillianbowles9902]

Great episode! Excited to read Dr. Ryan Cragun’s Research.

[@omartorrio1512]

I have a friend who was Mormon all of his life. In 1988, he heard a presentation showing the falsehoods and wholes in Mormon teaching. He was bothered by this, so he then spent about the next 60 evenings going to a government documents section of the local university to check out these claims. He found that the Mormon religion is a belief system full of gaping wholes and based largely on made-up nonsense. He subsequently left the Mormon church. After all these years, he has never been back.

[@stereotape]

Dr. Ryan Cragun - is a monster for positive social change - This is the guy to watch. honest and broad facts based on data. His ability to relay meaningful information is astounding

[@markpb4767]

Thats amazing your talk with your mom. Im sure shes so proud of you. Its very touching

[@markpb4767]

Thankfully the youth have determined noone needs to be in an organized religion, to be spiritual.

[@dadsarepeopletoo3785]

I believe this is where humanity as a whole is headed.😊

[@Mrs.Robinsons]

Thats how Ive seen it. An awakening

[@kellymilnerhalls1723]

This was an exceptional program, so interesting to hear about the church through the work of a statistician.

[@watchdog8058]

yes!! so interesting!

[@kscott8464]

I'm about half way through and this is one of my favorites MS podcasts yet.

[@derekbrown9574]

“We don’t know how reliable that number would be” having a dedicated person literally count heads in the pews every Sunday seems a pretty decent way to assess attendance… I don’t know why they would dismiss it so quickly, unless they need to disbelieve the data to preserve their faith…

[@maryqueen7650]

I thought the same thing. I also thought that that was incredibly manipulative. He did not hesitate to throw the ward clerks under the bus and blame it on them. I find that disturbing and disgusting behavior. Like they're actually trying to say that any problem in with numbers lies with Ward clerks that don't know how to count? Everybody that has ever been a ward clerk should be highly offended because that is nonsense.

[@andrewsuryali8540]

I think this is actually a frank admission that they're experiencing the same problem that the Catholic Church experienced in Italy in the 1980s. Italy was rapidly secularizing and was no longer the bastion of Catholicism it was. However, the people who were in charge of counting attendance (mostly the deacons) started realizing that many of their acquaintances were skipping Sunday service. To avoid embarrassment they continued counting as if the delinquents were still coming as usual. Due to their own mindset they assumed they were doing their friends a favor, not realizing that THEY were becoming the minority and were actually "the weird ones". It took until the early 2000s for the Church to get reliable pew counts again. That's why if you look at official statistics it looks like the new millennium suddenly crashed Catholic numbers in Italy like Satan just came down and deconverted everyone in a few years.😂

[@JeffNealsPlace]

What is this facial hair?!?? Looking good John! Happy New Years!

[@chrismiddleton4733]

Great, GREAT episode. I had no idea statistics could be so fun! I would have assumed this episode would be potentially somewhat bland, but instead of was extremely interesting start to finish and just flew by. What a great guest! I hope you have him back.

[@sundown777]

I remember in the eighties being invited to a church who gathered many children with the promise of fun. They picked us up on blue buses transported to a building with hundreds of children. I didn't remember having fun and attended once mabye twice. But remember how it was important that we could write our names. What we signed I haven't a clue.

[@sadiecosmos7512]

Very interesting video! One of my favorites. Happy New Year, John! 😊

[@carolatchley3797]

I've seen this interview advertised for about a week now, but I've never lived in Utah and had no interest in the topic. But I decided today to listen anyway, and I'm so glad I did. Dr. Cragun did a great job of explaining how they did their research and the relevance of their findings. I found it fascinating and want to thank both Dr Dehlin and Dr. Cragun for choosing to do this interview. PS, I love Ryan's huge coffee cup.

[@happylinuxguy]

I noticed the massive coffe cup too. Love it.

[@alextemus]

That Jeff Holland clip reminded me so much of Donald Trump “we’re bigger than ever! We’re better than ever!”

[@kristivaldez5815]

Really interesting, worthwhile episode. Thanks.

[@nikimcbee]

Wonderful podcast! One of my last callings before I quit believing was ward clerk. I can confirm around 35% attendance for the ward. Side note, thanks for talking about the Mormon Church in Russia. I was there as a student in the mid 1990's and I got some great insight in how the church worked. I would imaging that there are actual true believers, but a lot of it was just for show, to steal supplies from the church from Germany. It was eye opening to listen to the "Russian members" talk about church, when the Americans weren't around. Side-side note, Rusty's kid served in Moscow. I tell ya, the Mormon church was just a novelty over there. I'd love to hear the " numbers" there. Do you have a breakdown for the numbers for Utah County?

[@TexasTornado66]

We were station in West Germany (1985-88). The missionaries were pulled out of West Germany AND they told us American military families NOT to tell Germans about the gospel. Why? Because of huge amounts of money embezzlement of German church leaders. And affairs going on between bishops and RS presidents. So we were told at the time.

[@wingzero8390]

I no longer believe in mormonism, but my wife is a devout member. It would break her heart to know this, but I would love for her to leave... so hard for people to leave when that's all they have known.

[@BradKwfc]

I was in the same boat for a while. The big thing is not to push them just ask questions and hope they also figure it out.

[@SageFalcon]

Thanks!

[@Lynn.Panadero4242]

1:57 At this point you have already encapsulated me. I grew up devout Mormon for 40+ years until I became disenfranchised and found myself not only leaving Mormonism and Christianity, but religion in general. I don’t know if I’m atheist or agnostic or if it really even matters. I also lived in the greater Cincinnati area 2002-2010.

[@kpanyc]

This podcast is almost identical to some of the podcasts by the ex-Scientology community - the huge, empty buildings, the lying about numbers (especially abroad), the people leaving for all the same reasons.

[@PoolCarol]

I left the church 40 years ago but I am sure they still count me on the rolls since I never asked to be excommunicated or have my name taken off the rolls. I know several people in my circle of friends who have done the same. I am certain their numbers are super inflated!

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

Amazing episode! I will definitely be checking out Dr. Cragun's books!

[@justjacksmusic2106]

Happy New Year John and Ryan...

[@CHEVYedsf]

Such a fascinating episode!!! Loved the information provided here.

[@peterwinstead7618]

LOVE this episode. Give me all the data. Thank you Ryan Cragun!

[@gabetown82]

Fascinating episode! Thank you for all your insight and the work you do Dr Cragun and Mormon Stories!😊

[@guideme1503]

Ryan…great guest!

[@pedarbruce6373]

Traveling in Italy reminds me of Utah. The physical infrastructure of cathedrals is a visual presence much like the temples. It makes you feel like something is much larger than life (or reality)

[@Chococatania]

Except the churches in utah have grass walls. 😂

[@billiejoearmstrong3741]

Except Vatican, their art and everything around there is quite disturbing 😮there is something there larger than life and isn’t a good thing

[@mjordan79705]

I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that Utah districts are gerrymandered to insure lopsided majorities for LDS members in the state legislature

[@snivelinj7612]

This was a long discussion which I usually can't get interested in. This one was very interesting and enlightening due to facts that Dr. Cragun enumerated. He seems like a guy who doesn't have an axe to grind but has a background in the church like so many of us who have left it, and states scientific facts that really are reliably determined. Thanks so much for this.

[@jamesricks]

Every year, hundreds of thousands of gallons of water flows into the Great Salt Lake. When measuring the volume of water, do scientists just add the new water amount to the old amounts? Do they ignore factors like evaporation when calculating growth? Because if they did, the lake would also “be growing rapidly” even if it was maintaining a consistent water level. Even with a dramatic drop in the water level, they could still claim “growth” by just artificially adding water from their garden hose.

[@karukun0212]

I was there in 1980--taking kids for a "swim" to pad those baptism numbers. Our mission (Fukuoka Japan) was averaging only 200 a month, and we were jealous of Tokyo South for its thousands of "swimmers" per month. They were ragging on us for our faithlessness.

[@zanthornton]

Thank you for CAPTIONing

[@alextemus]

A few factors must be behind the temple building: 1) showing wealth to imply that they're powerful, 2) give the membership the impression that the church is growing during conference because they can't give membership statistics for that purpose, 3) legitimately providing more access to the temple in areas of the world where temples are thousands of miles or countries apart.

[@beoneB1]

4) The CorpCh is moving massive money from securities to hard assets (real estate including temples)

[@grandpascorpio]

The Power of the Archuleta reigns eternal -- this what happens when you reject him.

[@charlesmendeley9823]

His appearance on the masked singer finale where he openly talked about his suicidality caused by the LDS church is a PR nightmare. The finale was watched by 2 million people on TV and hundreds of thousands on YT. And his mum's interview on Mormon Stories was another PR blow for the church. The point in time when she recognized Jesus Christ is NOT present in a homophobic church is a PR disaster.

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

At 16:42. The stakes that are being created are in some African countries. A RM who served in Africa told me he saw five stakes created in the country he served in during a 22 month period. The only reason for this was the massive amount of baptisms each week. Branches were becoming wards quickly. The country also has a new temple. That would be an exception to what is happening in other parts of the world where numbers are declining. The UK has closed stakes recently and is combining church units.

[@twilightstar1895]

My ex husband served his mission in the 80’s in Scotland and did several baseball baptisms.

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

Ryan was just on Gospel Tangents. That was also a good interview.

[@rachelb315]

I have known of 4 different LDS churches in the last couple of years that have been sold but the sales clause requires demolition, they cannot repurpose.

[@giantclaw138]

I served my mission in Italy from 2021 to 2023, and there is absolutely no way the church is going to survive in Italy in 20 or 30 years from now. If you're outside of the big cities, there are mostly branches with very few and very old members. Combine that with the general anti religious movement across the youth in Italy and you're left with a sinking ship. Even now, the Italians struggle to keep the Rome temple supplied with enough workers, and they are disgruntled with the majority of their patrons being wealthy American families (especially if they're from Utah).

[@PyrrhicPax]

I remember attending my first General Conference and everyone was hyping it up. "We're about to hear from the Living Prophet!" They said. Then Russell Nelson gets on stage and starts reciting scripture and stuff and afterword everybody was like "so what did you think? Wasnt it amazing? We got direct guidance from God's Living Prophet!" And all i could think was "what kind of fortune cookie bullsh*t did i just listen to?"

[@paulroman3402]

51:25 not only a complete disproportion of legislators, but judges, university presidents and administrators, school superintendents, state and local department heads. There's simply no representation for the majority.

[@jeffs4483]

Not everyone votes too.

[@robyn874]

Throughly enjoyed this thanks John & Dr Cragun 😊 fascinating

[@aspackblaze3583]

I am one of 10 kids. Three are still active. I used to think we were different. Turns out we're somewhat normal😊

[@MegaCraptacular]

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" ~ Mark Twain. Great podcast John.

[@joemartineau1000]

I served a mission in Brazil from 2014-2016 and I had several areas where the records showed that kids were baptized but not confirmed. I sought them out to finish the confirmation process and nearly Everytime the parents had no idea the kids were baptized. When we talked to the kids they said that the previous missionary offered to buy them a kite if they would be baptized. Cheap kites cost 50¢ so they offered them to as many kids as possible in order to up their baptism numbers

[@rogergilvin5653]

I don’t believe that! There is a process to a baptismal interview!!

[@joemartineau1000]

@@rogergilvin5653 the process is that a district or zone leader needs to perform a baptismal interview before they are baptized to see if they were taught the lessons and have a testimony etc... but if the district or zone leaders are complicit then it's not much of a process. My mission had a lot of good people trying to be good missionaries, but it had a lot of bad missionaries who lied and did anything they could to bump up their numbers.

[@joemartineau1000]

@@rogergilvin5653 I had another time where I scheduled a baptismal interview with the district leader at the time. The girl being interviewed wasn't quite decided if she wanted to be baptized but my district leader insisted on doing an interview because he said he could resolve her doubts. What ended up happening was he physically blocked the door and insisted she would not leave until he resolved her doubts and she accepted baptism. She accepted and as soon as he let her out of the room she gave him the finger and walked out the front door. Missionaries lied, coerced, and pressured people into baptisms a lot in order to get the numbers up

[@joemartineau1000]

@@rogergilvin5653 there were also a lot of good missionaries who really thought they were saving God's children and did everything they could to follow the rules and be good missionaries. But the mission had such a high focus on numbers that even the best missionaries cut corners and bent the rules if it meant baptisms

[@jewelgazer]

@@rogergilvin5653 It’s a fact that LDS missionaries used baseball to baptize young people and sometimes right after a game was played. Even if one does not see this as a problem, then why would kites be any different?

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

At 25:28. The requirement for "regular attendance" is unclear. It used to be the case where active members had to attend two Sundays per month. Later in meetings I was told if they attend at least one Sunday per month they are active. Another recent meeting had a discussion about this topic, concluding if a person has attended church once in two months they are active. So the requirement is shifting. The other stat of course is physical bodies in seats compared to rolls. That is 15% in most stakes in North America, with some variation in states like Utah and Arizona.

[@t-pain3343]

I served in the Philippines early 2000s. Activity was maybe 10% at best. Ward had 500 on the books, but maybe 50 attended, and most were kids.

[@MrPuglove13]

They are lying. Period. It is what it is-stop splitting hairs, parsing words or whatever mental gymnastics you have to do in order to call a lie something else.

[@katestrong8558]

Absolutely loved this episode! Will get his book!

[@tomeubank3625]

The membership (active & total) of all churches is collapsing, even more so in Europe than the USA. LDS is distinguished primarily by its lack of transparency.

[@fattidiliberta]

Always been an atheist in a ‘catholic’ country - I am deeply spiritual and I don’t get how long it takes to humanity to get rid of leaders and dogmas and ‘storytelling’ religions

[@armysapper12b]

I’m an Atheist in Mormon country and it’s insane. I’m not a typical atheist either, I hold a lot of conservative views and not religious. I have a hard time conversing with atheists as they seem to be more left wing in the political and social issues spectrum, so I’m kind of an outsider in most realms of society.

[@armysapper12b]

@@michaelmcgee2026 I can’t think of anything that is not true I believe, kind of contradictory. I don’t simply believe things are true, I do however say I don’t know. Because knowing something isn’t true and believing it, is simply ignorance.

[@shelagh7850]

I was one of those marginalized members who left in 2020. I officially filed with Quit Mormon in 2023.

[@charlesmendeley9823]

How was your experience with quitmormon? How long did it take, and was there a hassle with verifying documents via lawyers?

[@ashleymcbrayer3310]

@@charlesmendeley9823I used quit Mormon back in 2021. It was so easy to use and took 4 months for my resignation to be finalized once I sent in all the information. Super easy process and so freeing knowing I’m not counted towards their numbers anymore!

[@shelagh7850]

Hey Charles, Quit Mormon was very smooth. I filled in the paperwork online, then printed and got it notarized. I then uploaded back to Quit Mormon. From then it took about 5 weeks for Quit Mormon to contact me that I was off the LDS rolls. My roommate uploaded her documents about 2 weeks ago, so she is just waiting for notification.

[@nadinehansen9241]

I think they build lots of temples because if people have a temple nearby they will be more likely to live a temple-worthy life. In particular, I think they are more likely to pay tithing. A temple probably doesn't pay for itself via increased tithing in the short term, but over time, if people become more devoted to the church, they are more likely to stay and to encourage their children to stay.

[@mormonstories]

So true Nadine.

[@Decision_Justice]

I thought the Temple was boring. I was a very dedicated member of the church, but going to the Temple was a chore. And that is even though I did my best to get into a spiritual frame of mind. I can't see how building more Temples would induce people to stay active -- I was actually happy when I moved to an area where there was no Temple because it was one less thing I needed to do. More temples, especially within a few miles of each other, it seems to me, would only cheapen the experience.

[@nadinehansen9241]

@@Decision_Justice You might be right. Someone once told me "I don't even like to see a *good* movie more than once. But I've known quite a few people who really enjoy going, and if there is a temple nearby they will be pressured to remain worth and to go.

[@beboystyle620]

I recently went to California and I have family that are members that comprise of the branch in the area. One of my uncles told me that they have merged a few wards in the stake. So, there are less people attending.

[@Lynn.Panadero4242]

1:14:38 The Mormon church could pass some of the excess funds over to the BSA to compensate for the losses that were caused by Mormon leaders who offended young scouts. Instead of buying up the BSA camps for real cheap from the BSA, they could just pass the funds over so that the BSA doesn’t have to sell those properties. Additionally, the Mormon Church could set up funds to help those victims receive therapy, so that they can move on in life. Not LDS social services that will guilt them for being victims, but real therapy that will be helpful.

[@dickwinwood5345]

Lynn... You are really sick, eh?

[@Lynn.Panadero4242]

I am quite ill, but that doesn’t have anything to do with my comments.

[@cameronvansant2108]

Really interesting stuff!

[@watchdog8058]

i love this! i always learn so much!! thank you!

[@jeaneisenhower8508]

I tried to withdraw my membership in the Mormon church, and they wrote me back to say that I wasn’t on their rolls, but they spelled my name wrong. I wrote a second time, told them the correct spelling of my name, and they wrote me back and told me I wasn’t on the rolls, but they spelled my name incorrectly a second time. So I wrote them a third time, corrected the spelling, which had been correct in my first two letters, and I got a third letter back saying my name was not in their rolls, but spelling my name incorrectly a third time! I have all the letters if you’d like to see them. I finally gave up. So I guess they have a lot of tricks to keep their numbers up. Oh yes, and I still have my Book of Mormon signed by the bishop.

[@Decision_Justice]

Nutty how they are!

[@claytongardinier5179]

You have to ask yourself, what is a new stake? Dividing existing stakes or reconfiguring stakes into new stakes could be used to support the churches statement without being necessarily being untrue.

[@FearMyLadyBits]

I've heard that the Church's problem wasn't in baptizing, it was in retaining their new members. I heard from someone who did a mission, it was like once the Philippino or whichever national was baptized, they were basically left to their own devices. There was no sense of community being fostered, no safety net they could fall back on with the church. So most converted were Mormon for maybe a month, then reverted back to their previous lives.

[@KarenDub]

Wish I could show you my KZbin screen-there is a sponsored ad for ‘Mitacles in Early Church History’ just below this video. 😂

[@xochitlkitty]

Yay! So glad you’re back!

[@JohnMartin-vw4zt]

Love how you both seem so nonjudgmental. It is refreshing to

[@lorawhitfield6995]

Super fascinating episode!

[@TerriSpringer]

This was a fascinating interview. Thank you for sharing

[@tamihutchings2537]

Happy new year