Motorcycle Suspension Tuning - Most Efficient Sequence

[@take5th]

As someone who came to riding long-travel suspension motorcycles at an advanced age, having last ridden off road 45 years prior, I have struggled to figure out my suspension settings for years. I finally used pavement features (ride a dual-sport), like sharp edged bumps, drop-offs, pavement joints, and potholes, to figure out what i was feeling. I also found that riding position must be perfect to get consistent results from changes. I then experimented with settings singularly and noted differences, and then together until I finally got it tuned. My bikes compression dampening also affect compression, so have to give to one and take from the other. This is all for the rear, as i found the front much easier to decipher and adjust. You could have done this is two minutes. BUT, I feel i much better understand my suspension system from my experience and time spent analyzing it myself even though i am first seeing this video and agree with everything you said. My understanding is organic, and your logic can back it up. I can now easily feel the differences a single click makes on any setting. Using your logic would have saved me time but one still have to have a feel for it to do it properly. other videos I have watched over the years on the subject just clouded all my perceptions.

[@rayvee482]

By far the most comprehensive explanation of it all I’ve ever heard. I’m the guy that’s been riding for 10 years and have never one time made one adjustment other than sag. Can’t wait to get started on what appears to be a journey of discovery. Much thanks from Idaho US. 🍻🏁

[@shocktreatment5495]

No worries.....May the force be with you!

[@chrismanley5656]

This kind of free advice I don’t see much. I spent a lot of time trying to learn about race car suspension and they people with the knowledge don’t seem to share it. Those people are also few and far between. Thank you. This has made a massive difference to how I’m gojng to enjoy my bike, and work on my technique as a rider and socket spinner. You’ve put me 40 years ahead of where I was.

[@sebastieng2476]

Racecar is a another world my friend ! I say nothing to no ones . Even my helpers dont have ALL the secrets haha ! Motocross is fun and super casual. Poeple talk about anything

[@paulgoat6632]

Brilliant straightforward no nonsense explanation! Thanks mate!

[@justadam1917]

Thank you Terry , Still generous with your time as always

[@shocktreatment5495]

No worries

[@justadam1917]

Good to see you Terry, as steady as ever Thanks for the clarity in the procedure to reset my suspension Your channel is filled with worthwhile information and your response to the comments are very kind Very best wishes to you and all you care for

[@shocktreatment5495]

Thank you Adam. I trust you are doing well

[@justadam1917]

Excellent thank you Terry it is an absolutely wonderful world

[@CHECKERD444]

Once again, thank you Terry...that's a wonderful menu to follow for adjusting standard suspension, without costing a bundle.

[@shocktreatment5495]

Enjoy!

[@timsilva1944]

I don't remember anyone explaining how your height effects forward drive. Makes sense, Thanks!

[@shocktreatment5495]

No one explained it to me either but think about it. The analogy I gave regarding pushing someone in the small of the back to get the best forward progression......If we were to measure the height from floor to the small of the back and determined that this was the ideal measurement what happens when the next rider is 6 inches shorter? We are no longer pushing in the small of the back and the height needs to be adjusted. Sadly, most people want the answer that is easy rather than the answer that is right. McDonalds aren't the most successful restuarant because they produce the best food. They produce the most convenient food.

[@maltewagener7797]

@@shocktreatment5495 is there a rule of thumb where you start with tall people, say 6'2 and over? As a percentage of "stock sag"?

[@shocktreatment5495]

Normally we are finding that taller riders will have less than 100mm of sag and run heavier springs. I would suggest you try appr 95-100 and still chase around 35 static. The heavier springs also assist with stabilising movement around the pitch axis adding increased levels of control for taller riders.@@maltewagener7797

[@derekwoods8199]

@@shocktreatment5495, I'm an avid researcher of every one of my hobbies, passions and career; in my 19 months of XC racing dirt bikes (late bloomer, started at 32 years old), I have not run across a single person discussing rider height vs sag! I'm 6'3" and 187lbs (~85kg) and not one time has anyone said to me, "hey, since you're taller and tend to struggle with front grip, you should try decreasing sag from 105mm to 95-100mm and see if that helps". Man, I'd be a much more confident rider had I found this earlier and not consistently fought to stay w/in the "normal" 105mm sag range that everyone says should work. I've got a '17 450xc, '23 300xc, and '24 300xc and even my suspension guy always pushed 105-107mm for sag, but if I run my bikes with that much sag I have to raise the forks in the clamps to regain front tire bite. I've been working on foundation training (hips unlocked and back, butt out, back flat, head and chest forward) to strengthen my foundation (duh) and to sustain the "attack" position and proper form longer, but in 2+ hr races sometimes it's impossible for a novice / mid pack B paced rider to be on point all the time, and it bites me when I'm not. Running closer to 100-102mm has GREATLY improved my front end traction, even on a worn front tire - I used to almost require a new front tire every 3 races b/c if I didn't have square crisp edges and got in to slick snotty terrain I'd struggle miserably with front end feel... No more!

[@uncletom1971]

Terry is the kind of teacher one listens to.

[@shocktreatment5495]

Cheers

[@moto3463]

Had to subscribe, legend! love the suspension talks.

[@tinymotogarage]

Great advice - thanks 👍. I've just bought a new correct weight spring for the shock and I'm rebuilding my 4CS for supermoto - so knowing this theory is great.

[@shocktreatment5495]

Glad it helped

[@TwistedTriggerEnduro]

Best explanation of suspension ever. Thank you for posting this video, it's exactly what I needed. 😃👍

[@shocktreatment5495]

Glad it helped!

[@kanemartin7291]

Hey Terry would love if you could do a video on wp pro suspension and how to broadly set up with clickers and preloads cheers

[@jae-2403]

Ripper vid Terry. Cheers mate. Always good to get a memory flash after some partying way too much week 😅 All the best for the year ahead guys.

[@shocktreatment5495]

And to you....Cheers

[@dahof2789]

Great stuff! "A bump is a bump." 👍 I'm a novice suspension guy about to rebuild the suspension on a DRZ400 that I use for motocamping (mostly paved and gravel side roads). I carry myself plus all my camping gear. I know that it affects the dynamics of everything covered here but would lo e to see a video that talks to the adventure type of suspension tuning.

[@colfergusson4242]

Brilliant free advice cheers

[@shocktreatment5495]

Glad it was helpful!

[@79active]

Good explanation 👏 👍

[@shocktreatment5495]

Glad you liked it

[@MarkSpencerAZ]

THANK YOU!

[@shocktreatment5495]

No problem

[@JimG1964]

Wow what a great overview. I've never heard how amount of sag related to a riders height before. One question, what adjustment is best to prevent harsh bottom outs on jump landings. I have the correct spring for my weight and oil in the suspension. Am I correct that you would close or turn in your high speed compression a bit? Ankles are suffering...Thanks

[@shocktreatment5495]

What is the scenario that you are bottoming out in? If it is when you fail to clear a table top by a meter or so....you will nearly always bottom out.

[@JimG1964]

@@shocktreatment5495 Yes and also on flat landings. Should it be so harsh that my ankles swell up? I don't remember suspension working like that in the 70s but I was a lot younger then lol. I was thinking of adding a bit of high speed compression so it would bottom out but not ankle breaking bottom outs. I will admit that I'm not a highly skilled rider yet and still learning to jump properly on the 4 strokes.

[@Jaysrippen]

Quick question: Your procedure made perfect sense to me and simple steps! What do you adjust for enduro riders hitting larger logs and bike kicking/bucking after the hit? Through testing many bikes it seemed that ALOT more RB (like 10 clicks stiffer/slower) made improvement (also reducing comp some) does this sound right? Thanks, Jason

[@shocktreatment5495]

Any set up is a compromise. The secret is to have as little compromise as possible. Any impact that sees the centreline of the wheel below the centreline of the obstacle (log) is going to result in a violent forward rotation of the bike. This is best countered through riding technique rather than suspension setup. Quality riders will address the log by kissing the top half of the log with the bottom of the front tyre creating a rearward rotation that helps counter the forward rotation that occurs when the rear makes contact. This means you don't have to compromise 95% of your riding for the 5% of the time you are crossing logs. You do a lot as a tuner. You shouldn't have to solve "inability"......It's ok to tell a rider to lift his game.

[@j-moto1215]

Great video and technical breakdown. When you mention the Traxx shock not being durable can you elaborate ? Just purchased one and curious to see what I’m in for haha. Cheers

[@shocktreatment5495]

If you have an actual Trax shock with the drop out system, you will find the springs in the clevis can break and require replacement. We have repaired a number of these. Also the shock sent through the swingarm is quite noticable but can be mittigated with a frame mounted bumper from Lanier.

[@danielfick9333]

Good information as always..! Just one questions, isnt touching the rebound clickers after compression adjustment also gonna mess with our compression settings we found to like befor we started adjusted rebound on most Bike's with traditional midspeed/pistons setups...?

[@shocktreatment5495]

It sure will......There will always be compromises in tuning. The trick is to end up with the least amount of compromise possible. That's what this method will deliver.

[@R6trackaddict66]

Old timer here. And, raced MTB DH for the last 10 years. On DH rigs it's the opposite when it comes to rebound adjusting. You want it more on the slow side. I've since retired from it and now ride a sumo 450. I'm guessing for street/track (pavement) you want slightly slow rebound?

[@shocktreatment5495]

After working with the National Yamaha, Aprilia and Kawasaki Superbike teams as well as International outfits, I can't imagine any scenario where ground tracing becomes improved with slower rebound. Certainly there are times when you dont want the wheel to follow the ground.....Stadium whoops, sand chop etc but for most cases, you simply can't beat grip. As mentioned in the clip....set your rebound a little faster for grip and then dial it back to achieve the best blend of traction and control. Sadly optimum sensation of control does not always align with optimum grip. Having said that....your assessment of what is fast and what is slow may not align with mine and we could well be talking about the point in different terms.

[@R6trackaddict66]

@@shocktreatment5495 Look up Andrextr channel when you have time. He has in depth tutorials on rebound adjustment. (not that you need lessons or anything). His rebound recommendations are on the slow side. But, a happy medium slow. I based my settings on my DH bikes off of his recommendations and, seem to work great. Could be a weight difference and tire size that changes for either sport. But, then I'm not an expert. Thanks for your answer. Cheers mate!

[@Andy-co6pn]

A dh rig, in fact any bicycle is a compromise between how the suspensio reacts to the track and how the suspension reacts to pedal input from the rider. .Moto doesn't have this issue

[@dirtrider9268]

​​@@Andy-co6pni know accelerating with an engine also changes suspension, makes it stand up. Related to the reason why following a line on pavement, one is not as fast as the other rider on same line, differences in where they loaded or unloaded the suspension for grip... all other factors being equal.

[@robsonenduro3316]

I am still a little bit fuzzy about relation between the front and rear suspension because obviously either setting affects the other....

[@shocktreatment5495]

They sure do!

[@daleduke3934]

I thought raising forks puts more weight on the front and gives more traction. You stated raising forks gives up traction. Can you explain? It hasn’t been my experience.

[@shocktreatment5495]

Check out our video on "Steering vs Cornering"....its all there.

[@disco4553]

This is why I send all my suspension work to these wizards.

[@bikemancody2752]

Springs first, Sag, comfort clickers set. Go ride. Then re-evaluate. Make sure if it's a new bike, to give it at least 8-10 hours for some break in.

[@Kirchert919]

i really want to know what "averages" they set up the bike for ? i assume its some were between like a 1.75 meter 70 kg to a 1.85 meter 80 kg guy? But that is really not the average person in society, its more like the average "fit person". It would be nice to know what specific body types the different brands actually aim for

[@shocktreatment5495]

Bikes will be developed around a company test rider. This will generally be an ex-racer, 75 - 80kgs. If you are lighter or heavier you just have to accept the fact that there should be a new set of springs in your near future.

[@gotdirt66]

I really want more torque 4 th and 5th would be nice

[@rider65]

I also didn't mention the balance front to rear, rear to front with regard to sag. You cannot have the percentage of sag delta vary more than a few percent, other wise the balance is going to improper- which will negatively affect load transfer.. Either way, a very unscientific method, which is okay, but probably not be a good baseline setup for many riders. I guess it also depends on the type of riding,m I.E. MX, easy single track, tech or hard enduro. 🤦‍♂

[@shocktreatment5495]

Oooh....you said Delta... I guess you will have to look at sag in regards to the entire motorcycle as opposed to just suspension. You can follow the crowd.....which revolves around simplification....or you can choose to dig a little deeper. There are enough people in this game trying to keep things simple. I don't need to be another mindless follower.

[@learningtofly6804]

Why is the rear sag key, isnt the angle of the forks important for a balanced chassis... Why don't we measure the degrees of the forks to ensure it's not too raked out OR steep? These vids are super helpful Terry! (As most youngsters do, you've sprung back from your injury quickly :)

[@shocktreatment5495]

Fork angle is relative to speed. Trials bike = upright fork (low speed) Land speed bike, forks are raked out (high speed) The rear is all important to power and this is key to performance. Once you have this sorted....marry the front to the rear.

[@robertjolliffe4164]

Drop sag increase fork angled increase sag rakes out forks so ur fork angle is set bye ur sag

[@rider65]

The way you set sag for the front fork doesn't seem to make sense with regard to rider weight and load transfer. If you don't take the riders wait with full gear into consideration then how can you establish a baseline just based on dive under braking. Braking is such a variable, there will be times when you will brake soft, times you will brake hard and also the duration of braking. 🤔

[@shocktreatment5495]

Rider "height" will have a far greater effect on brake dive than weight. I have yet to hear of a valid reason for front wheel sag. From a technical perspective it makes very little sense due to the ill effects of binding and seal drag. I would suggest that if anyone tells you to set front sag.....just walk away...

[@jacintovanderhoeven4371]

Hello, nice video, are the trax shocks not as durable ? need they more maintenance? regards

[@shocktreatment5495]

If you have an actual Trax shock with the drop out system, you will find the springs in the clevis can break and require replacement. Also the shock sent through the swingarm can be abrupt but can be mittigated with a frame mounted bumper from Lanier.

[@jacintovanderhoeven4371]

​@@shocktreatment5495 thanks

[@bromers2971]

I was here to see the Rottweilers 😢

[@shocktreatment5495]

I'll send you a clip

[@oOAltoOo]

Same lol, looked like a damn handsome rottie

[@EddiNice]

Mate you literally said nothing useful to actual riders. “Do this, do that, yes is it ok” the sort of thing a lecturer will tell you in the hall when you ask him a question, noice but nothing specific. If when you challenged everyone at the beginning to beat this level of knowledge and quality, then I am sure you will be unbeatable as you covered everything so broadly that anything to suspension is related but nothing actually specific. We all know we need to test the suspension, we all know we need a new tire and piston and a crew like a factory riders, but we dont have the time to do all this because we are not. If you want to be useful just say how to make something better, not be as generic as a non-rider talking about how to ride, from watching videos here. Keep your trading secrets locked and maybe setup your bike only, but noone elses in fear of losing m your knowhow.

[@shocktreatment5495]

No doubt I can look up your channel and see how it should be done....but a few things you should know about the modern rider....They don't test like they should...they want everything easy....and by and large, fail to extend themselves....and most notably....they won't watch a video if it goes for too long. I think I have at least demonstrated that we know what we are doing and do more than most. If there is extra info you seeking, it would be better to simply ask a question and get an answer than make a stupid comment

[@Andy-co6pn]

Hi Terry, i noticed when rebuilding my YZ250 KYB how much influence the rebound damping had on the compression damping. If we set rear compression, then rebound, should we then re-check compression again ?

[@shocktreatment5495]

You can certainly go over it again and refine your settings. It all helps. If you just do what is in the video you will be doing more than most...... but doing more never hurt anyone.