MTG Top 10: Initiative is One of the Most BROKEN Mechanics We've Ever Seen In Magic: the Gathering!

[@michaelzilske]

Most flavorful reminder text: "You can take the initiative even if you already have it."

[@crawdaddy1234]

You should look at the Portal printing of Warrior's Oath. lol

[@imaginarymatter]

At first I thought Initiative was a pauper's mechanic. Then I realized it was a Pauper mechanic.

[@kurtlee12]

😂😂😂

[@ender4101]

It's very interesting to see the impact of initiative cards on 1v1 formats, while in commander, where they were made, those cards don't see nearly that much play, usually appearing only on "dungeons matter" decks. Having 2 fewer opponents who could potentially take away your initiative is a HUGE deal.

[@eloidasarmi6815]

40 life starting total could affect that somehow too 😂

[@Bob-nc5hz]

The initiative is definitely more balanced in multiplayer, hell Arena is almost useless in 1v1 (goad can have some use in 1v1, but it's nowhere near the usefulness it has in multiplayer). OTOH the initiative is also a bit of a bear in multiplayer, the amount of state tracking is really high when all 4 players manage to venture into the undercity.

[@ender4101]

@@eloidasarmi6815 I could see it, especially with Seasoned Dungeoneer being basically unblockable and exploring each turn AND getting bigger/dealing 5 damage with some specific Undercity rooms.

[@ender4101]

@@Bob-nc5hz I'm biased because I have two decks with Initiative, but I think you're correct that most people just don't bother adding them in decks where completing dungeons doesn't matter.

[@imaginarymatter]

I think a lot of initiative cards are decent if you just think of them as: card + basic land to hand. The first room of the Undercity is essentially a cantrip.

[@PKFat]

I always felt "initiative" & "venture into the dungeon" were the modern day "banding" & "bands with other" - very similar abilities that are headaches to explain the difference of.

[@badwolf4239]

If they were just similar, it wouldn't even be a problem. But initiative and venture directly interact and trip over each other in weird ways too. I will say, the idea of making a deck entirely based around forcing extraneous mechanics and status effects on the game is sort of appealing. Initiative, venture into the dungeon, the monarch, day/night (and maybe add an older werewolf to the mix just to emphasize the confusion), tempted by the ring, etc. Stickers are banned now, but a boros stompy deck that just wins by showing your opponent the full depths of cursed bloat to which Magic has fallen until their will to continue playing is run dry... or beating them to death because all the annoying mechanics are stapled to big creatures.

[@HumbleBasse]

Fun fact.. "Initiative" is the word for "First strike" on french cards since mtg was printed in this language. But they still called "take the initiative" "prendre l'initiative" 😢

[@ender4101]

@@HumbleBasse In Portuguese too! First Strike has always been "Iniciativa". Take the initiative was translated to "assume a dianteira", something like "take the front" or "take the lead", which sounds kinda clunky.

[@stefanoriva1738]

Funny! In Italian First Strike was translated as "Attacco Improvviso" that means Sudden Attack

[@wudgethenumbers]

Initiative isn't really even a dungeon mechanic that's too pushed. It's a commander mechanic that's fundamentally designed around 4-player games with a starting life total of 40, and as powerful as eternal formats are, they're still 1v1 and have a starting life total of 20. I do like where Pauper is currently at with the mechanic though, now that the majority of the cards with it have been banned. Goliath Paladin and Avenging Hunter as just big top-end midrange threats that create some value even if they die right away, but also carry some amount of risk are pretty healthy.

[@simonr6268]

It is just a horribly designed mechanic. If WotC want to design mechanics for Commander they should ensure the mechanic is stronger in 4 player free for all than in 1 v 1. Ideally these types of effects are powerful in Commander and useless in Eternal formats and not the other way around.

[@wudgethenumbers]

@@simonr6268 I basically agree. I get why they would want to go into the design space of things like monarch and initiative - they encourage commander players to actually attack each other and politic around them - but it'd be nice if they spared a thought for what the cards will do in Legacy or even just how they play in 1v1 which isn't unheard of for kitchen table commander decks. Gavin at least does think about Pauper, and probably not coincidentally, Pauper is the format where (after requiring usually the largest number of bans to bring in line) these mechanics end up looking the least unhealthy.

[@venkelos6996]

I know some people weren't too fond of the D&D sets, even tho it's another IP Wizards actually owns, but im personally glad one of its mechanics gained some popularity. Obviously, we aren't likely to ever see Level Up, again, even if they made another D&D themed set, and I don't recall Party actually doing too well, so it's nice to see something found its footing, abd competes, even in the strongest formats.

[@Blackvolttage]

Level up isnt in any dnd set, its a zendikar mechanic. Where you thinking about something else?

[@darthparallax5207]

They're thinking Level up is just not strong enough compared to Sagas. Zendikar block was a test run for how much D&D they could stick into Magic without requiring the legal tech of Universes Beyond. All Zendikar sets are D&D sets in my book and arguably Innistrad too. It's not just that they resemble generic high fantasy-- it's that Tomb of Horrors and Castle Ravenloft are particular iconic D&D campaigns and the two planes mimic them a lot. While Eldrazi aren't the same as Beholders or Liches, nobody can deny that references to Level up, Party, and Allies all clearly evoke D&D flavor. Theros and Ravnica are kind of pushing it too. I'd argue that from a particular era of Magic, Shards of Alara, Scars of Mirrodin and Khans of Tarkir were the only ones between Lorwyn and Ixalan that felt specifically like Magic the Gathering. And revisits to Dominaria haven't felt as MTG since Time Spiral. In part that's because so many years of Magic design were more obviously copying all the good ideas from the D&D so Dominaria became even more D&D influenced. That's because gamers as a whole have influenced every IP and every franchise with a stripe of the fan driven 3.5 edition vibe of internet generated community content. The Coalition and the Gatewatch, Phyrexia and Nicol Bolas, are specifically Magic-themed characters. Because everyone rips off of Lovecraft eventually, the Eldrazi don't feel like Magic originals, they feel more like all Lovecraft ripoffs should hang out together in Universes Beyond.

[@darthparallax5207]

Shards of Alara is unique enough it feels more like D&D has been compelled to rip off of it but it still feels specifically Magic the Gathering. That might just be nostalgic bias because I started approximately between Coldsnap and Shards, though. Kamigawa wasn't ripping off IPs, it was just generic Japanese fantasy, and not Final Fantasy. It also wasn't very Son Wukong-y. [Antiquities, The Dark, Ice Age, Tempest, Urza, Invasion, Odyssey, Mirrodin, Time Spiral, Shards of Alara, Scars of Mirrodin, Khans of Tarkir, War of the Spark] As far as I'm concerned, these sets are the most clearly MTG distinct from DnD. Arguably the Dark and Ice Age shouldn't count but they do contribute to Phyrexian lore. March of the Machines was sort of forced hard from Dominaria United for a less than 1 year of sets, and it didn't feel like Eldraine 1, Theros 2, Ikoria, Strixhaven Innistrad 3.0 and 3.5, had anything to do with it. Kaldheim, Kamigawa 2.0, New Capenna, Dominaria 4.0, March of the Machines (counting Invasion and Time Spiral as 1 and 2, and Dominaria 2018 as 3.0) all had Praetor cards though. Strixhaven and Ikoria were the most shallow ripoffs since they focused more on the Godzilla IP than their own IP for Ikoria and Strixhaven was the highest budget Harry Potter fanfiction ever produced.

[@NemisCassander]

I actually expect Level Up to possibly show up in the FF set. More than Sagas, though, I think Class cards (which almost CERTAINLY are going to show up in the FF set) spelled the doom of Level Up as a mechanic. Also, if we ever get a Cosmere UB Magic set, Level Up and/or Class cards have a good shot of showing up there.

[@masterchaosforge]

I feel like many people didn't care about it being DnD themed, but AFR was a very underwhelming set, power level wise, and Balder's gate wasn't really feeling like a commander legends set and the initiative kind of fucked up legacy and pauper badly. Tldr: people don't mind dnd, it's not really universes beyond. The sets were just bad/poorly designed

[@TheGloriousLobsterEmperor]

Today has not been a very good day for me. I woke up in the middle of the night with really bad gastroenteritis and had to go to hospital. Luckily I'm feeling mostly better, so I could still afford to take the initiative to request "Top 10 Vintage Cards (Minus Power 9)"! I loved the dungeon stuff. The initiative? I don't think I ever played it. But still, it's kinda a cool effect. The D&D stuff was, in my opinion, one of the only good "universes beyond" things ever made.

[@jairomy]

Hope are you well.

[@TheGloriousLobsterEmperor]

@@jairomy I'm feeling a lot better. A diet of bananas and sips of water is helping me out.

[@dickdeoreo]

LotR was pretty dope. You not too fond of that one? I just played it in limited so I’m not sure of the consensus in constructed.

[@superbaas8822]

A lot of the power in the initiative is that ever initiative card is also tech against the mechanic. If you have cards of your own, your own cards become ways to hate on the mechanic without having to go through the hoops of winning in combat. So it becomes a mechanic that if anyone is playing it, and if nobody is playing it, then everyone else doesn't need to play it.

[@dickdeoreo]

I somehow understand what you’re saying without knowing what the heck you just typed lol

[@erc4375]

For one of the next opinion top 10s you should do top 10 cards that become better against multiple opponents

[@jordanb722]

That'd be cool af actually

[@JasonOshinko]

How many of those cards would have any points in competitive play?

[@jordanb722]

@@JasonOshinko Does it matter? Not all lists count competitive points. It would be hard to collate/filter cards, probably

[@crawdaddy1234]

I don't even know how you'd begin trying to quantify that. While some cards get cheaper for each opponent, some cards that get cheaper for each creature on the board, and some cards that say, "for each opponent," it would be impossible to evaluate. And I'll give some examples: Smothering Tithe: This doesn't get better just due to having multiple opponents. It also benefits from a higher life total. It benefits from TIME. What if 1v1 was 40 life? You play this on turn four and cast Prosperity for six the following turn, and now you have access to 12 treasure tokens. Then you cast Fascination for 10 and get 20 treasures... Cyclonic Rift: With multiple opponents, this does the same thing as it does in 1v1. However, it's not because it gets BETTER; it's because comparable cards get WORSE. There's a difference. If you and your next door neighbor play basketball together and that neighbor kid is generally slightly better than you, but the the neighbor kid sprained their ankle two weeks ago, you're far more likely to win for a while despite not having improved.

[@Alecations]

Usually the community underestimates broken mechanics, and I feel like this is the most obvious one to underestimate: Too many damn words and based on another equally wordy mechanic that needed a whole other card, (this time two) so it was blindsiding to hear White of all colors breaking vintage and legacy.

[@Orcasgt22]

Sub 30 cards with the effect, 5 banned, almost all have points. Crazy. Never seeing this mech again haha

[@ififus]

Funny thing is, here in France there's two "Initiative" keywords since this is how they translated "First Strike" in French back in Alpha... Talk about confusing !

[@Proudfootzorz]

The multiple "descended" keywords are very confusing imo in caverns of Ixilan.

[@Claudio-dd5ij]

I have a theory: vicious battlerager was meant to be uncommon from the start, but they accidentaly (or maybe not) printed it common. There is a common creature with initiative for every color except for black that has two. Plus, the other black one (underdark explorer) seems more on par with the other colored creatures (initiative+keyword).

[@therealHLY]

the big isue with the initiative isn't so much that's its overpushed, so much as it simply wasn't designed for 1v1 and they didn't consider the problems it would cause in a constructed 1v1 format but due to how things work, it was just legal there. the moment you let people have 4 copies of cards to get it with regularity as opposed to singleton, and the fact its a LOT easier to pull ahead and defend against a single opponent than having it bounce between three of them, both make it exceptionally strong in constructed and honestly rather obnoxious it's like true name nemesis. we made a decent idea for commander because it encourages politics and agression, but then when you put it in 1v1 its just not fun to deal with

[@JasonOshinko]

It's weird that artifact decks are still referred to as "mud" when artifacts have had the silver frame for over twice as long as they have had the brown frame.

[@Snipfragueur]

The only time the dungeon mechanic is impactful is for the Accerak loop, and there is only one room that actually matter...

[@RowanNagy97]

Yea I've seen that card so dramatically misused before; I've twice now seen people assemble the loop then...use it to finish Tomb of Annihilation; when the loop is an infinite game-winning combo if you go into Lost Mine of Phandelver instead

[@crawdaddy1234]

The biggest issue with the Initiative/Monarch (and to a lesser extent, regular "Venture into the Dungeon," emblems, and Day/Night) are that you cannot interact with them. And before you say, "You just need to attack," that's not INTERACTING with it. They exist even after all cards that reference them are no longer in relevant zones. I would have no problem if a card says, "While this is in the graveyard, the Initiative/Monarch continues," because it's still in a relevant zone - I can exile it. The reason I have less issue with "Venture into the Dungeon," emblems," and Day/Night: Venture: True, you cannot interact with it, but unless you have the Initiative, you can't go through it without cards that specifically reference Venturing. Emblems: For the powerful Emblems, you generally had/have to work pretty hard for them. And for the emblems that are easier to get, they are generally pretty balanced and just give a static benefit, not ever-increasing benefit. Day/Night: Day and Night does not have any actual impact on the game if no card in a relevant zone references it. Moreover, the reason it's awful is because you have to track it even if no card cares about it.

[@justinanderson2631]

I'm making a Queen Marchesa deck focused on both Monarch and Initiative. It's gonna be a lot of fun I think!

[@cheapskateotaku7123]

What is the most disappointing about initiative was that undercity is the only dungeon, where it should have allow to venture all dungeon so that you can D&D with your friends 😅

[@CircusQueen8]

would love to see a top 10 for cards with unique mana costs (like gut shot, the ultimatums, leyline of the guildpact, etc)

[@personalthesus]

I was refreshing KZbin to see when this dropped 😂❤🎉

[@Panttz12]

Hey Nizzahon, in the video description you have "Initiative is a Lord of the Ring-inspired mechanic" just FYI

[@jays.6843]

I always disliked these mechanics that requires outside cards to track them

[@bigbonerecords.4080]

Do something talking about "Sagas".

[@anthonypeters3005]

Top 10 basic Lands please

[@JasonOshinko]

KZbinrs generally want their videos to get views.

[@catoticneutral]

Seconded.

[@Happytremereinc]

I dont think the enter the dung mechanic is bad, but only having 3/4 choices. Thats what make them bad.

[@sephyrias883]

I really disliked "the initiative". It felt so parasitic. Like, Trailerblazer's Torch 05:35 could have been a colorless Sorcery for 4 that only said "take the initiative" and you would still play it. Wizards greatly underestimated how easy it is to destroy every single one of your opponents creatures before they can attack to steal the initiative.

[@Shimatzu95]

Initiative is one of thise mechanics that just didnt turn out great in terms of gameplay. In 1v1 its arguably to strong as a value engine and in commander its annoying to keep track of for 4 people in addition to how it interacts with venture cards.

[@arielquelme]

After Companion and Dredge

[@kosmonaut5]

My Seferis deck demolishes

[@ItsDangerousGoAlone]

Im going to be honest, i dont see how these see play in legacy and vintage in the slightest. Those formats often just have instant win combos with 4 mana. Heck, modern has splinter twins and can instant win with 4 mana, why would these formats want to venture?

[@TheLuminousCleric]

No. 1 is banned

[@mrmistmonster]

Wizards apologizing for how bad white was early on with some of these. Still not enough.

[@cax1175]

I hope your covid is taking the initiative to go away!