Good (or Not so Good) Reasons to Kill Someone in Commander | Commander Clash Podcast 159

[@jcstaff1007]

53:32 Phil to Seth: “next turn is going to be so awesome, trust me it’s going to be so cool” Sounds like Cell trying to convince Vegeta to let him become Perfect Cell.

[@TheFeueratem]

Good thing Cell still lost to Gohan

[@ethanglaeser9239]

I think deals work in game the same way it works in real life. If you break deals, you lose reputation. People will spite you, and potentially reject deals in the future or even stop playing with you entirely. It is a social aspect of the game with social consequences.

[@Kryptnyt]

If you behave honorably, you will be honored! It's very simple.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

Yeah. You break one deal, ever, for any reason, and you have no basis to expect anybody to ever make a deal with you again, ever, in any context.

[@ethanglaeser9239]

@@dontmisunderstand6041 To be fair, that is a bit extreme, but the essence is legit. I think of deals between players like Game of Thrones. All these people know they are gunning for the same goal, but sometimes working together is beneficial. If you backstab someone though, they will stab you right back.

[@Bubblenuts13]

That’s all true. To be honest though, I do think it would be fun to play in a pod where you tule zero the Crim way, where bluffing is an acceptable thing. It’s different than outright breaking a hard deal, but rather, part of the game is the lawyering part. I think that could be fun

[@koolaiddude7685894]

Tbh too many people try and make deals instead of trying to progress the game. Cant stand people who give the current leader even more advantage by trying to win political favor for a turn

[@TSGypside]

On broken deals: If you catch me on a technicality (we make a deal not to attack each other and you do direct damage to me some other way), I will laugh and kick myself for not being more specific. If you actually lie and break a deal, I simply don't play with you again. My playgroup at my lgs feels the same way.

[@maximillianhallett3055]

Exactly. When making deals, operate under the assumption you will be taken literally.

[@tbclabamba8051]

You wont play another game with the person? Why just dont make deals with him/her? I mean some people see breaking deals as part of the game and i think that should be ok because it comes with consequences for their reputation

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

@@tbclabamba8051 Why would I play a game with a person who fundamentally doesn't understand what a game is, and intentionally refuses to learn what a game is?

[@TSGypside]

@tbclabamba8051 If the player is the type to outright lie in a casual game (not counting other games where lying is part of how the game is played), it's a clear sign that their personality and mine are not going to be compatible for future games. Rather than subject either of us to continued unfun interactions, I wish them the best in whatever playgroup/pod they find themselves.

[@TSGypside]

@@tbclabamba8051 My free time is limited. Choosing not to play with that type of player is less about "punishing" them and more about respecting my own time.

[@tromedlovdrolmai]

For more context on mine, the dude literally said, multiple times: "no matter what the 3 of us did, my (his) deck will always combo off. I have way too much redundancy to ever lose." He kept saying that throughout the whole game. He still lost. And when he did, he nearly flipped the table in anger. Never seen him at my LGS again

[@evandill]

If you keep saying you're the archenemy, eventually, the others will have no choice but to believe you.

[@fitnesshunter6302]

My lgs at one point had a rule where if you won too quickly you would lose points (to encourage a more casual rate of play) and I had one opponent who complained they could win on turn three but didn't want to do so since they would lose points. When the time came that they would be able to win, it turns out they couldn't and when they lost to another player the following turn they stuck by their words that they could have won, dropped out of the event and never came back. Good riddance imo

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

@@evandill I build my decks to BE the archenemy more often than not. Them believing me when I say it makes the game more fun for EVERYONE.

[@sovietpersonman]

I think killing someone over a game of a Commander is a bit too much no matter the circumstances but to each their own I guess

[@Shimatzu95]

Unless they play tegrid or mirym

[@RuudAwakening]

not even in soviet russia?

[@willjackson5885]

Unless they ban Mana Crypt apparently lol

[@jonathanpuccetti9258]

I think a reason that no one brought up because it's so obvious, but bears stating: Because you are winning and you can. If you are archenemy, and you can kill someone, do it. Getting everyone low just gives them more time to respond. Take people off the board and close out the game.

[@akihitokoizumi2474]

Apparently playing like that is not casual and leads to many "feel bads".

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

The inverse of that is... if you can't win the game that turn, and aren't the biggest threat at the table, NEVER kill someone who isn't the archenemy. A free for all is not you and your opponents... it's a group of people who will sometimes be allies and sometimes be enemies, depending primarily on game state. Killing players at the wrong time actively lowers your chance of winning.

[@oinkleberry]

Hating non-archenemies off the board gives you less allies against the deck that's actually the archenemy. If you are the archenemy though, obliterate opposition one at a time as quick as possible.

[@beerman2000]

We have a saying in my home game, "Whenever you can eliminate a player.... you do it." It's never a bad play.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

@@beerman2000 That saying is literally wrong though. If there are 3 players left in the game, you're in the weakest position, and have a chance to eliminate the person who isn't in the strongest position, it's actively harmful to your chances of winning to eliminate that player.

[@orpheos9]

For the scenario where one person has a big beater and another is ramping and drawing cards, the clear answer is to let the beater guy live and have him hit the ramping player. As an aggro player it infuriates me when the lowest threat player removes my dumb beater when I’ve only been attacking the person who is waiting to combo off.

[@JamesCooley-q8b]

Preach brother!

[@Panoldark]

1. Phil playing simic 2. Crim playing control/stax 3. Richard

[@antoniomelton-molina1442]

also crim as soon as he plays an indestructible land

[@PieBandit]

Tomer trying to assemble Kaldra

[@towelociraptor]

​@@PieBanditand not because he's a threat, but to send a message

[@andrueurbane7361]

Or Tomer, because that one time years ago he won with Kiki and today he is playing Orzhov...

[@matthewollar9842]

😂😂😂

[@jomornes1770]

Any deal I make is given the clause "unless you become really scary really fast"

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

Just don't make deals with a long enough term that you can lose the game by honoring it. Simple as that. You're the one on the hook if you gave someone a blank check and they decide to cash it.

[@RyuPlaneswalker]

Now that the podcast itself is out I can give the real answer to this question. Commander works like the The Great Book of Grudges from Warhammer Fantasy. You Attack me? It goes in the book You interact with me? It goes in the book You play a Spell? It goes in the book You play a Permanent? It goes in the book You Play a Land? It goes in the book You look at me? It goes in the book You breathe? It goes in the book

[@matthewollar9842]

#truestory

[@terryjohnson8261]

If you're going to add a stat for cards in hand at the end of the game., you should also add a stat for mana available at the end of the game to keep this argument balanced.

[@crayyonnyadrav4055]

Hey Tomer, little story time since you mentioned Scrambleverse: I was playing my first EDH game at a new LGS store with Kwain. The 3 others were all Naya Creature Decks, including one with the Rin and Seri Secret Lair deck. That one has for whatever reason a Scrambleverse in it. And it set up a state where the game lasted a whopping 6,5 hours. And I was the winner of it by scurrying into my rabbit nest of Solitary confinement, a Monarch piece and Academy ruins, plus the fact the others took themselves out first. And the last one of the three did not have removal for my stuff so I just outlasted him with feeding into the Ruins. The lesson here: Try to kill the group hug player first if you wanna go home before the shop closes.

[@drkatz1192]

@11:45 Richard changing his argument mid-conversation to defend his point. Classic!

[@JamesCooley-q8b]

He does that so often it's unreal

[@MrGrovak]

I will die on the hill that if mana crypt was affordable, sol ring would be the more hated card by a large margin. I have died a lot to my own crypt trigger. 😅

[@donb7519]

I disagree heavily every playable 0 cost card gets tons of hate.

[@jesperwinther518]

I've been dealt more dmg by Crypts, than other players... In total.

[@crosseneric]

My play group views a deal as a rule addition. So like "I won't attack you next turn" means they CANNOT declare attackers, we all pay attention to what deals are made and keep our selves honest. We also cannot make deals that last longer than one turn cycle

[@benv5052]

Richard try not to politic outside of games challenge: Impossible

[@joer6168]

Speaking of winning multiple times in one play session getting you killed, I realized that if I play my stronger decks first in a play session, and win a game or two, I would switch to one of my jank decks I am trying out for the next game, but other people would also switch to stronger decks, and I could never make any of my low power jank decks I build do anything. Advice: play jank decks early in the play session. This made my low power decks more fun to play and actually have a chance, and led to better overall nights.

[@MentalCrusader]

Totally agree with Tomar, I had the same experiences with players having tens of treasures and no cards to play, but with rhystic instead, they usually have lands, ramp, bombs, gas, everything

[@JamesCooley-q8b]

Based Tomer take as usual.

[@godlyMike127]

I must say, there was one game when the doctor who decks first came out where myself and another friend were BOTH playing Timey Wimey for the very first time…. The other two got up and literally completed an entire sub game with another guy before either of our turns were done 😅. I was after him in the turn cycle, and just between our two turns alone it took about 40 minutes. Everyone was a good sport and laughed about it, but do not underestimate the complexity of that deck, especially to a new player lol. Goldfishing a deck like that a few times is absolutely critical.

[@StrykerLee]

The key to countering Scrambleverse is Blue Elemental Blast. The key to countering Rhystic Study is Red Elemental Blast.

[@LookADistarction]

Blasting makes me feel good!

[@Larkinzzz]

34:28 Mana crypt may be "the same card" as Sol Ring, but people who play it are effectively doubling up on their Sol Ring, doubling their chances for a fast start etc.

[@zeroisnine]

It kinda shows how out of touch they are.

[@evandill]

It's the same card, but like people put in sol ring on instict almost automatically, Crypt you are putting in for a reason, and that reason is basically never fun.

[@jesperwinther518]

So what? 1/100 or 2/100. Does not matter. If the tears are too heavy, simple use 2 sol rings in your deck. If it makes you sleep better at night.

[@sohpeeah3131]

@@jesperwinther518that’s a huge difference- a 13% chance to draw between in your opener with 1 free mull vs 25% chance if you have both. i’m not against playing mana crypts in your lists you should do it if you’re building a deck you want to be high powered it does significantly increase the likely good that you will have a powerful 1 drop mana rock(and since most people who are running crypt will also be running jeweled lotus that actually ends up being 36% to hit at least one of the 3)

[@jesperwinther518]

@@sohpeeah3131 Probably. Is that a problem? I'm confused.

[@xaphan7061]

That Dr. Who precon was already offensive on its face, but once I saw it play I knew I could never allow someone running one of those things to untap. Not on power level just on basis of pure obnoxious durdling.

[@trichogaster1183]

will this hold up in court? asking for a friend

[@MakeVarahHappen]

Every time someone refers to land ramp as un-interactable I put a land destruction package in a new deck.

[@ebonezra8073]

Sheesh! That's a lot of decks. And to help out, land ramp is uninteractable. I also think you shouldn't play stax, MLD, or counter spells. Basically, you shouldn't play anything that keeps me from playing my deck .... which is absolutely _not_ Korvold. I should be free to go off with Brago combo, or Prosper. Oh, and Eldrazi are perfectly fine - as long as you can't hurt my Tron package. Just... don't play anything that stops me from playing Magic. Also, I get to play extra turns because reasons. And I get to have 20-minute turns with my infinite untap lands that you can't touch because that's mean. 😇

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

@@ebonezra8073 If my stax keeps you from playing the game, you need to build a better deck.

[@MakeVarahHappen]

@@ebonezra8073 I think there's a difference between mass land destruction and a land destruction package. Just skimming a little off the top.

[@ebonezra8073]

@MakeVarahHappen lol yeah, I suppose you're right. Still, I don't think there's anything wrong with MLD. There is something wrong with just casting it for funsies, but that's no different than a player targeting another player for no reason again and again, just to be a dick.

[@hamblance5938]

12:00 it's easily card draw over mana. If you can only have one- card draw alone means you don't miss land drops and you have options, with just card draw you can perfectly curve over the next few turns and stay flexible to the changing board state. ramp alone means you have 1 options: whatever you top deck. If you top deck another land, another ramp piece, etc. then that sucks for you. The ONLY time ramp beats card draw is when you're also excessively lucky.

[@Will_Morand]

Richard: “What three cards warrant an automatic kill?” Phil: “Crim.”

[@tyloschsosas]

In our commander group we have a system with deals. Deals are consider the law. If someone promises not to attack you in exchange for not board whiping, then you need to honor this, just like a game rule. Not doing so is only allowed if said player would win the game next turn. You need to carefully choose your deals to not limit your options too much. And the player that gets others to make advantageous deals with them can usually win.

[@TheNaturalnuke]

Breaking deals is entirely part of the game, but so is reputation. Simply get better at making deals so that it’s not a problem and you don’t have to break it. ‘Hey discard a land card when I swing with Aclozatz and I won’t swing on you for two turns.’ Followed by waste not giving me the mana to kill player 3, swing and kill player two the turn after, and now my deal is up by the time I ever needed to swing on player 1

[@spookstheghost1253]

Who up clashin their commander?

[@joshuadempsey5281]

I played my Liberty Prime deck recently. Hit this guy once, dealing 8 commander damage. Then when I swung at him again later on, he calmly declared no blockers, despite having a bunch of tokens from Prossh on his board. So I’m sitting here thinking, “okay if he’s this casual about taking 16 total commander damage, that means he’s confident that I’m never going to connect a 3rd time; he’s going to completely end my game or win”. So I cast Legion Leadership (the new boros MDFC), doubled my power, and killed him. He was FURIOUS, and said I “hated him out of the game”. But what was I supposed to do? Just let him go off and win when I could see exactly what was coming? I stand by my move 100%. If you’re too chill about being 1 hit from death when you could have blocked, that means you know if you live you’re never getting hit again.

[@prestonbeaulieu4379]

I can understand y he'd be a little salty. Nothing wrong with the play u made. But I could see the other guy just not caring bc it wasn't lethal, then u just kill them out of nowhere. I normally announce when I'm going to try to kill someone.

[@rpglover5955]

@@prestonbeaulieu4379 It's still on him (opponent who got hit by the Liberty Prime deck) for not thinking there could be a slight possibility that he was dead, especially if mana was up on the other side, and if he himself had a lethal bordstate against the table or close to it.

[@wedgearyxsaber]

​@@prestonbeaulieu4379 Its the opponents fault for not watching their health and keeping themselves accountable for the damage they take. Am i supposed to remind my opponents of menial game information like they drink glue?

[@NickAlsup]

@@prestonbeaulieu4379 I sincerely hope you are joking

[@prestonbeaulieu4379]

@@NickAlsup why would I be joking?

[@al8188]

The fact that there is any discussion around Rhystic Study at all shows how little people really appreciate its power level, even in competitive environments. If its in your deck there is a solid chance its the strongest card by a wide mile. People do not know how to play around it, kingmake without realizing, mistake the combo that killed them for the problem and not the 10 cards they gave that player, and generally do not have enough respect for it. Tomer is truly the only person in the pod seeing that card clearly. It genuinely should be regarded as not a casual card in the same way people think of Dockside where even if your deck isn't built to take advantage of it in the same way, it is going to propel you so far ahead while annoying the entire table with triggers. Even in cEDH people will talk about how insanely strong it and the fish are, how it is an unbelievable advantage engine that helps enable midrange value plans in the format, lose to it over and over, and fail to properly play around it.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

Both modes of Rhystic Study are overwhelmingly powerful. Yeah, cards are a big deal, but so is a mana advantage. Neither mode is objectively better than the other, it depends entirely on context. There is no such thing as playing around it. You're choosing which side of the effect is the reason you're losing. For the record, Dockside isn't a big deal in casual. It's not a casual card because it's not *good* in casual.

[@JamesCooley-q8b]

@@dontmisunderstand6041 LOL what casual format are you playing where dockside isn't good. I can't even fathom that. In casual where games are slower it usually makes even more treasures than cEDH not less

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

@@JamesCooley-q8b Think about how explosive and short a game needs to be for dockside to be more mana than any mana rock or mana dork. The math on Dockside's ability literally makes him less impactful the longer the game goes. 6 mana on turn 3 doubles your mana. 20 mana on turn 10 is less than a 40% boost. Dockside's impact gets smaller as the game gets longer. That's just how math works.

[@JamesCooley-q8b]

@@dontmisunderstand6041 I'm not going to try to explain how faulty that logic is ❤️

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

@@JamesCooley-q8b That's good, because it's literally just math. Math that checks out. 20 is less than 40% of 55, and 6 is in fact 100% of 6.

[@microafro1979]

If there is no obvious archenemy, you attack the most experienced and devious player. For Commander Clash, it's always CRIM. If the board is at parity, and you have an open attack for some chip damage, HIT CRIM!!

[@beerman2000]

Lol. My group had an understanding that if all things are equal the target is whoever already won a game tonight

[@fiercedeavora]

Two instances where I immediately target someone, both instances are past experiences. 1. Taking their turn during our turns. Had constant eot effects and would proc them every turn, taking up an extra 5 minutes before the next actual turn began. 2. Is the apparent threat and whines that they aren't doing anything and won't be doing anything for a while. Then complains about being targeted.

[@davidrosenberg9615]

I mean, one of the general questions is how you evaluate who the threat is.

[@TheSpunYarn]

"Reasons to Kill" starring Steven Segal coming next summer

[@commiecommandermtg]

Commie Commander here, You guys touch on some really good things. I would give a bit of grace on the subject of "being on phone" or other similar distractions. At least in a random pod. You don't know what is going on with that person, and unless they are actively disrupting the game or not even trying to be apologetic about it, just be aware of it. :)

[@ParfaxGaming]

I think picking all the cards and no lands is CRAZY. I would rather have 10 lands and 4 cards then 4 lands and 10 cards. That makes your commander and top decking way more powerful.

[@seanedgar164]

But I'd rather have a ryhstic in play than a tithe 9/10 times

[@andrewgolubiewski3463]

So when's the "the pod makes basic lands look as powerful as they can" commander clash?

[@lelandwhitehead56]

I'm pretty sure the Multiple Tutors questions were including fetchlands, anything that makes you look thru your deck.

[@TheForeverRanger]

One of my go-to decks is a spread burn deck with Ojer Axonil. Unfortunately it is really hard to make deals when I am playing that deck because everyone takes damage. I am the Crim of my main playgroup since I tend to gravitate towards control.

[@surfinggarchomp2820]

If smothering tithe is so bad then unban it and see what happens.

[@SWAT6809]

I actually had assumed the Rhystic, Smothering, Crypt thing was not due to power but due to "do you pay the 1/2" and the coin flip, hence why sol ring aint there.

[@charmandenator5686]

My fiancée always tries to kill me first so we've reached preemptive Mutually Assured Destruction mode in our multiplayer games. Thankfully we moslty 1v1 lol

[@orpheos9]

For cards vs mana debate, I agree with Richard in medium to lower power it’s mana that is scarier unless they have literal no cards. It’s much more about rate of deploying your cards in a multiplayer format. In higher power environments it’s card draw because of more fast mana and combo finishes.

[@JamesCooley-q8b]

Card draw usually means drawing your ramp but that doesn't work the other way around

[@kas579]

That 1st one would mean most of any lgs table would need to be booted out of the table

[@kryttercakes]

For draw vs ramp, I will always say draw. You can draw into lands or ramp spells or more card draw to get ramp or lands to cast anything you got along the way

[@micahlaremore8224]

Tomer speaks the truth. Rystic study popping off at a table where people don't pay is WAY scarier than smothering tithe

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

Smothering Tithe wins games more often than Rhystic Study. However, Smothering Tithe can be played around, Rhystic Study can't.

[@seanedgar164]

​@@dontmisunderstand6041tithe is harder to play around coz the tax is greater but 1 treasure is not worth 1 card. Tithe is only as good as the spells you can play off it. I'd rather scuplt the perfect hand AND find my best acceleration

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

@@seanedgar164 All modes of Rhystic Study are punishing, and you literally cannot progress your gamestate without triggering it. Both modes of Smothering Tithe have the potential to be inconsequential depending on game state, and Smothering Tithe also doesn't punish progressing your game state, only your resource loop. And even then, furthering your resource loop now can make it easier to invalidate Smothering Tithe later. They're not actually similar cards at all, despite appearances.

[@lobbynotlob]

One day I hope to see this mythical 15 card combo that Tomer always speaks of.

[@JamesCooley-q8b]

Underrated comment lol

[@commanderpower99]

"We are afraid of mana more than cards"... yeah if you somehow drew 30 cards with only 3 mana on board, sure... you are not a threat, I guess. But how did you get to draw 30 cards with only 3 mana? The only way I can think of is Ad-Nauseam and it comes with a slew of mana rocks and mana sources to use the rest of the cards you drew. Drawing cards gets you to your mana!!

[@lVideoWatcherl]

Rhystic Study can do that too, though not often.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

If you have 30 mana and only 3 cards, you're going to win. If you have 30 cards and 3 mana, you're going to lose. That's a pretty big difference.

[@lesternomo6578]

the mana being better than card draw argument is just... you can draw into mana acceleration/lands, you can't mana your way into cards lol

[@RuudAwakening]

​@@dontmisunderstand6041 in case of specific combo cards yes, but 3 random / average cards, most likely not

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

@@lesternomo6578 There are, in fact, a lot of ways to mana into cards. It's kinda the only area Izzet does better than everyone else.

[@Shimatzu95]

We sraight up just need to remove combos from casual commander, just make a seperation in the format into commander with and without combos.

[@jadegrace1312]

Open the Way is not better than Smothering Tithe lmao. Its insane that he simultaneously belives everyone is drawing infinite cards but Smothering Tithe is also only making 3 mana a turn cycle.

[@JamesCooley-q8b]

Right? Also his arguement that he can use the lands forever falls completely flat if you die to the person with a smothering tithe while you were ramping (checks notes) 2 lands off of open the way. This playgroup and Richard's mentality specifically really hurt from a lack of aggro at the table in my opinion. An aggressive deck weaponizing those treasure is a really big threat

[@harleydean5591]

My friend hates to read his cards to the table and he will get irritated and hand you the card but then I have to read it to the table because when he said what the card does he told us part of what it did. He also misplays his card all the time even though he’s played magic 20 years. I instantly go after him when he starts do this.

[@surfinggarchomp2820]

I love to read my cards to the table because I like my deck and I like talking about it.

[@jesperwinther518]

He sounds like a loser... Its his responsibility - even in the rules. If he acts like a child, simply hand him a toy instead.

[@adamrobinson6951]

37:00 Stax is so hard to define. If it's just anything that stops your opponents playing the way they want to, then blockers are Stax for creature based decks. Burn is Stax against players who plan to pay life. Graveyard exiling/shuffling is Stax against graveyard decks. Any time someone says something is "basically Stax", I generally ignore them. Stax is about preventing you from doing anything, not just making you slightly less efficient.

[@baragon023]

Richard is right about draw/mana. You always have your commander.

[@bigfhtagn]

This episode gave me similar vibes to The Howling Salt Mine guys. And now that's a crossover I'd love to see.

[@eannburns1335]

My top 3 must kill cards are Confusion in the Ranks, Aetherflux Resevoir, and Drannith Magistrate

[@noise.s]

I never related this much to Richard... I love dnd lands too XD

[@RyanEglitis]

The ones that always get me are: 1) There's a group hug player 2) There's a Nekusar/Tegrid/Etc... player 3) They explain in rule 0 talks that they have a 2 card combo, 1 card of which is their commander.

[@adamrobinson6951]

I feel like you glossed over the most commonly overlooked reason to kill people: You are the threat. I've both been the guy and seen many guys with dominant board states get carried away with how much more they can build their army before their next turn. My army is growing exponentially and I can only kill one, non-threatening player this turn. I'll not risk sending my creatures into combat now, not only might they die I might need them to block. Much better to hold them back until I can kill the whole table in one swing three or four turns from now. Of course three or four turns from now everyone else has developed their own boards and removed my threats. Of course, the player who board wiped was the one I could've killed if I'd attacked earlier. In fact, if I'd attacked each turn all three opponents could've been killed before those three or four turns passed.

[@atevalve]

Someone checking texts and messages feels okay to me to a certain extent. Like seeing what the people texting them are saying is fine, having a conversation less so

[@jesperwinther518]

@@atevalve that might be the correct balance actually. 🤔 Well said.

[@atevalve]

@@jesperwinther518 Thanks! It's kind of how I feel about a lot of social faux pas in Commander. Carrying a grudge from past games is bad, experience based threat assessment is good. Taking up all the time is bad, making sure you're making the appropriate play is good. Being aware of social context feels like the more important part of the whole "social contract" aspect of the format to me

[@jesperwinther518]

@@atevalve its a very reasonable take. Every pod is different tho' and peoples' etiquette seems to varie alot.

[@AxillaryPower2]

For me, if all else is equal, I go for the most expensive deck. If on turn one you play untapped duals or mana crypt, I'm going after you because I have to assume the rest of the deck matches that calliber and budget.

[@seanedgar164]

I interact with the deck doing more than me and try attack the board scarier than mine. If all is equal, the deck with the highest power ceiling. I don't want to lose to an inconsistent deck that is op 1/10 games

[@weeklyweeks7545]

Very entertaining podcast. Looking forward to meeting the crew at magiccon Vegas!

[@mattduarte4914]

Seth seems pretty harsh on "breaking theme" as a reason to kill someone...but the OGs remember who was it that used "Gield of Guin"

[@Ghostly81199]

“What about smell?” Everyone Else: agreeing on things and continuing to talk Tomer: “I-“ , “Y-“ , “I-“ literally not able to talk. Everyone else: Stops talking Tomer: “I-“ Video: Cuts to the next topic 😂😂😂

[@jenniferpeet2748]

Richard finally admits to liking basic lands, but only the ones that have text on them. Might as well be playing nonbasics still lol

[@beerman2000]

I feel like if you have to win so bad that you break deals you aren't someone I want to play with. It's supposed to be a casual game for fun.

[@Dreamchime]

I blew up the 5-colored Ezio player's Cover of Darkness and he warned me he would take me out of the game on his next turn, lets just say he didn't get a next turn.

[@donovanloreman]

On the commander combo question, I had a Kiki-Jiki deck that could combo with a sneeze, but if I promise not to combo (and have a history of following deals) don't do this.

[@mikov6486]

What I appreciate the most about Goldfish and Commander Clash is what a good sport everyone seems to be. Shoutout to Crim and Phil especially for playing the “villain” in a way that’s both fun and sustainable.

[@cameton_youtube]

Sometimes it's just fun to play commander like a social game, like diplomacy or avalon. Watch the world burn. Make sure your play group is ok with it tho xD

[@121Xander121]

When I make deals I always stipulate that if the person I’m making the deal with draws into a wincon or if I draw into a wincon then the deal is off. I never expect anyone to intentionally throw a game just to uphold a deal, and I would hope nobody expects me to do the same.

[@untouchablequeen]

I like the whole discussion for the Rhystic, Smothering Tithe, and Mana Crypt-- but as soon as I saw those 3, i didn't think about salt, i thought the synergy of those three was about nagging about the "did you pay the ## ??" or "did you do the crypt trigger??"

[@rodrigpimenta]

LEAVE MY CATHAR’S CRUSADE ALONE!!!! - Tomer’s boyfriend

[@jumpskare1344]

The whole "I didn't know what that card did. I wouldn't have done that," plagued my group for so long. People just need to accept that they made a mistake/misplayed and move on with it. Doing so can also create some really fun scenarios. I recently had a game where I played Vazi, Keen Negotiator for the first time against the new Baylen that cares about tokens. I misread my card, thinking I was only giving him 1 treasure, he correctly called me out that by targeting him I gave him 9 treasures. The game immediately turned into a really fun arch enemy game due to a silly misplay. Don't rewind because of mistakes, embrace them and keep going forward.

[@devinkerr5474]

I love the entire room's reaction to Richard saying he would call someone out. "Kill them immediately, but don't call them out and draw attention to it"

[@canadianham]

They need to make Cheeto fingers foiling. Orange fingerprint foiling on your card would be halarious

[@Shawn-f3x]

OK, I feel called out, lol. I adore my Selesnya +1/+1 counters lists, and I frigging solitaire board states a few times a week to keep my counter-adding and arithmetic-calculating (I’m thankfully super-fast w/ doing math in my head) up to a high speed. I tell anyone who groans when they see the Hamza or Sovereign Okinec Ahau, “Give me *a* game to convince you I can play a counters deck no slower than a Meren player who’s dithering a touch about what they’re bringing back. If I’m too slow for you, focus away.” I *love* counters decks. I get compliments about how fast I run my Vorinclex, MR deck. People actually ask me to play my Arwen, Mortal Queen list. Focus the *slow* counters players. Spare us guys who put in the work. :) Edit: Personally, I’m all about eliminating 2-card combo instant-win pilots, first. Wish people would just stop bringing them to the LGS. DU stained glass basics, because who can afford 36 oil slicks.

[@jimbo90]

I think on deals, it also could matter on what deck you are playing if you are playing Dimir I kinda just expect the deal to be broken because that's what I expect from that guild.

[@Coblak]

43:12 Archmage Ascension is one way to multiple tutor

[@psychozen7169]

Crim and Richard break deals all the time . Crim also break rules i have yet to see any punishment plays gainst either

[@psychozen7169]

Seth tomer and Phil have short term memories like goldfish.

[@matthewollar9842]

48:30 I have ‘side tables’ for food and drinks. Drinks on the table need a coaster. If someone dared spit food on the table, let alone my cards, I would clown them until they felt so small 🤷‍♂️

[@psychozen7169]

Seth, Tomer and Phil have short term memories like goldfish when it comes to broken deals!

[@Shimatzu95]

There is a reason for the channel name

[@timbombadil4046]

More cards in hand equals better card selection. Not saying Richard is wrong that mana gates the top value of having cards in hand, but despite that, what is actually cast gets better the more cards in hand.

[@Saro1021]

How do I pick who to knock out first in EDH? Whoever is playing Simic gets the cross hairs and then the "lands" deck.

[@ethanglaeser9239]

Rhystic Study because it is too good. Smothering Tithe because it is obnoxious. Mana Crypt because this isn't CEDH, screw you. In response to Richard, I didn't list Sol Ring because I don't really get to use the Mana Crypt argument since people play it everywhere.

[@davidrosenberg9615]

Agree about Mana Crypt. This isn't cEDH. Screw them.

[@itsmwambintime4254]

I dealt 24 commander damage to a friend on turn 5 two days ago because he blew up my sol ring. I feel like that is an extremely good reason. I finished third.

[@Thoughtmage100]

Sacrifices must be made to send a message.

[@casteanpreswyn7528]

As someone who has unironically Force Spiked someone's Sol Ring turn 1, you're absolutely justified.

[@itsmwambintime4254]

@@Thoughtmage100 TBF I prolly would have won if another friend didn't play all is dust right after

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

That's the basics of warfare... if you're going to target the factories I produce weapons in, I'm pointing those weapons at you until you can't anymore.

[@davidrosenberg9615]

I once had someone counterspell an Archivist of Oghma I played in a six player game. You best believe he regretted not having interaction for the Orcish Bowmasters the next turn. I did something like 30 damage to him with it because one player was playing wheels.

[@gavindavis2914]

I think the problem with mana crypt is a card quality thing with every other card in there deck. If someone is playing crypt it’s likely they have a highly efficient deck because cost probably isn’t an issue at all and sol ring doesn’t have that effect

[@gildarmesh3809]

Me just realizing Crim is the heel of commander clash. He's not the villain but he plays one on TV

[@grizzerotwofour7858]

I agree with intro tomer. When choode violence, its allways correct😂😊

[@REWASDFGHJ]

Good episode. I notice y'all pit the 'Mana vs Cards' extremes when it's a sliding spectrum. I don't think that's a useful discussion 10 mana and 2 cards vs 9 mana and 3 cards vs 4 mana and 8 cards. I'm only afraid of the third one if they are a combo deck. I think it's more about relative to other players and pressures on the board. My general targeting priority: Perfect Selection (tutors or massive scry/recursion values) > Mana > Cards > Deck's apparent power level > Player's apparent skill level (politics) If somebody tutors multiple times, that means they have the perfect card. Massive draw turns into perfect selection and can overpower mana. Mana is often scarier than draw because more cards are always entering the game, and many things provide mana sinks. Player's apparent skill level factors in a bit. Reasons I'd add: - This person will outscale me. Like if their value engine gets online I'll never dismantle them. - Related: I won't be able to easily pressure them later (Propaganda, Goad, Chaos, etc) - This person's strategy hard counters mine (I'm a creature deck vs a wrath heavy superfriend deck) - They've reset the game too many times and aren't pushing towards winning (too many wraths, cyc rift recursion) - They're good at manipulating table perception of threats/brokering tons of deals. - They're playing tons of boring Staples. I want to see unique decks. - They're being annoying with Rhystic/Smothering and interrupting other players - Too upset at being targeted/focused - They're being a jerk. I'd rather jerks lose than nice players. - They're running a repetitive commander I see all the time (sorry Slivers/Elves/Dinosaurs/Recent Precon) I'll be more inclined to leave a deck alone if they're doing something unique or if I want to see how their game plan develops. Targeting players for previous games: Only among friends. It's okay if it's from apparent player skill/deck power. I dislike grudge holding unless it's over deal breaking.

[@DarthTUK]

Kill Crim first. No exceptions. Reason? He is Crim. He will lie to you with a straight face. He will make your gameplay expirience miserable if you give him free reign.

[@patricklynch4074]

Something im surprised no one mentioned is when an opponent has a commander that has a severe advantage against yours

[@coreysierchio4650]

As a Werewolf player, I'm on top of the Day/Night mechanic.

[@codenameduckfin]

Tomer showing off his Party Host prowess :D

[@xEddyTheGr8x]

@22:35 I was actually in that game in Amsterdam where Phil had to go infinite FOUR turns back to back to actually win in the end, because we always threw some wrenches in his gears 😂 And let me say: It was some of the wildest & most fun games I played the whole weekend, so at least when Phil is concerned, going infinite is more than fine time-wise. You just really have to kill him before any of that nonsense happens 😂

[@tribalmattersmtg5532]

On the sweaty point, our playgroup invented “embarrassment counters”, if you do a fuck up then you get a counter. 3 counters and you die 💀. It means the first one is banter, the second one ups the banter because you’re now close to death. The last one keeps the players who like to “play by the rules” happy because it means you can’t keep doing takesies backsies and some times just have to commit to a bad play.

[@The99killa99]

At my pod I’m the player with the most experience, so I’m often targeted first & killed off, even if there is someone doing dastardly deeds. It can be frustrating at times , but I understand their reasoning

[@denniswman]

A friend of mine learned to like plain Timbits (donut holes) so he would get the cards too dirty 😆

[@nickel_n_dime719]

Breaking a deal is just lying lol. Maybe playing around with technicalities is fine, but don't just lie to people to win a game

[@noahfriedrich4686]

That's only if you are making a deal planning to break it. Going back later isn't lying if had been planning to keep the deal. I don't make deals in games though

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

@@noahfriedrich4686 Going back later literally is lying. If you can't keep the deal, don't make the deal. You're the stupid one for accepting a deal that negatively affects you in the first place. "It was better for me to break the deal" being a valid reason to break a deal means it's ALWAYS actively encouraged to break every deal ever made, and thus makes all possible deals valueless AND pointless. Just don't make the deals if you are the type of evil sub-human scumbag who'd break one.

[@RazorDevil1]

@@noahfriedrich4686 thats just lying with extra steps bro lol, i didnt plan on shoplifting today at the store but the moment presented an opportunity so i took it. (you still shoplifted)

[@jeremyphillips3087]

This is why you never win at mafia.

[@BaltanTwo]

So 44:30 I left open the possibility of drinks because staying hydrated is important and drinks are often bottles or under the table, commonly easy to stow away from the battlefield. I’ve seen too much terrible food - sadly even finger food - at tables that I had to add it to the discussion. And yeah, spewing food particles from the mouth. Ugh.

[@BaltanTwo]

And sadly I’ve had individually funky people I could identify before. Will never stay at a table like that ever again if I can help it.

[@theabrandt6177]

Draw is scarier because you can draw a ton of resources. If you have a bunch of lands and no cards, you can't do much. If you draw a ton of cards, you probably just drew a bunch of lands and potentially ramp.