Jay and Stu talk Doctor Who: The Timeless Children

[@britishnerd3919]

Heaven Sent: the doctor uses immense will and spends 2 billion years dealing with his grief to escape a time lord trap This: the doctor thinks really hard and escapes in 10 seconds

[@dalek_4252]

yeah that's werd

[@tgoas3503]

He actually spends even longer than that. The last time he mentions how far into the future it is in Heaven Sent he says it's 2 billion years in the future, but in Hell Bent the Time Lords say he spent a total of 4.5 billion years inside the Confession Dial.

[@KaladinVegapunk]

Honestly Capaldi in heaven sent is one of my favorite doctor acting in the entire franchise Hell bent was a bad pay off but holy crap was him being stuck for 2 billion years so goddamn engaging, a whole episode with just him acting his ass off

[@KaladinVegapunk]

@@tgoas3503 yeah, it's when Clara is asking for clarification He spent THE ENTIRE LIFESPAN OF THE PLANET EARTH inside there hahaha, 4.5 billion years was definitely chosen for that reason Sure, technically it was only a day since it was a memory reset loop, but during his mental dialogues he definitely implies that he's able to process every iteration and remember them

[@KaladinVegapunk]

Not to mention using memories.. To break the machine designed to contain A BILLION years of timelord history and the memories of their their entire species hahaha Also making the doctor the uber mega super special progenitor of timelords instead of the goofy pariah who's secretly badass but hates the bureaucracy

[@finn_underwood]

"The Timeless Children is an episode where The Master brings The Doctor to Gallifrey in order to show her a PowerPoint presentation that ends with a slide saying 'You were adopted'." ...that's the perfect quote that sums up what Doctor Who is nowadays, sadly.

[@dhruvhari7189]

Time stamp?

[@finn_underwood]

@@dhruvhari7189 47:47 ish

[@dhruvhari7189]

Thank you so very much!!!

[@Reprodestruxion]

They turned the fandom into red headed stepchildren

[@comicconcarne]

That one mental image is more entertaining than the entire episode

[@idrewagiraffe]

My friend said she really liked the timeless child and I literally had a stroke trying to wrap my head around the fact someone I knew liked it

[@truegamer_007]

Has she watched a lot of good tv/movies? If all she knows is mediocrity, I can understand why she thought it was good. I kinda envy that tbh. Ignorance is bliss.

[@dalek_4252]

*LOL*

[@MediumRareOpinions]

"I'm sorry, it's the kindest way" (raises pillow to face)

[@leacwm]

I hope you have recovered from your stroke

[@KaladinVegapunk]

Im completely in agreement with them and you at how janky it is But to play devil's advocate, a possible reason and justification for the twist is we knew everything about the doctor and their backstory, all the mystery from classic who was filled out New who created the time war to give a whole new element of mystery and gravitas to their backstory, that lasted for the last 4 doctors With timeless child you now have a crap ton of blank backstory and mystery to draw on Now the problem is.. the current writer is a hack so none of that would be good or compelling hahaha But in the future it could be great material for writers to draw on But at its core it's flawed because it turns the scrappy doctor as a flunky time lord into a mega awesome progenitor god

[@Stubagful]

This stream was as much of a disaster on my end as the episode so therefore it is thematically relevant. Also I'm ill and delirious and have recollection not this stream - I did remember to say the episode's shit right? (I am pretty certain I had covid while recording)

[@superspudgun]

The Soundless Stu - still more entertaining than the Timeless Child ;)

[@scottconwell2146]

Good disclaimer!

[@PercyandDuckfan94]

But here's the question we've been asking after this; is this worse than Hell Bent?

[@scottconwell2146]

@@PercyandDuckfan94 Definitely!

[@sStu-ex2sz]

Jesus may be the Timeless Child, but you have to wait until next series to find out

[@keeperftw]

One of the last things the Eighth Doctor did before regenerating was mock the concept of eternal life, calling it "utter boredom". This episode revealed that the Doctor has eternal life. The universe ALWAYS finds a way to screw Eight up.

[@SuperFunkmachine]

Dito the five doctors, none of them wanted immortality.

[@booradley8895]

The master revealed it and of course it must be true then

[@calumbishop7082]

Boo Radley It’s probably true in Chris Chibnal’s mind. The moment he’s gone this is so getting retconned out of existence.

[@Tree_-wp5zn]

@@booradley8895 hey Arthur

[@Maximara]

Actually it was the *Fourth* Doctor to point out the major flaw with eternal life in "Brain of Morbius" - Death is the price you pay for progress.

[@Jedi_Spartan]

My main issue with the Timeless Child is that it is an extension of a problem many have had with modern era Who in the past of the Doctor being too big. I tolerate it in most cases and justify it as him becoming that way due to the Time War and there are even times where I think it is good (eg: everyone at the Pandorica being established as having fought him at some point or when 10 basically tells the vashta nerada to look him up in the galaxy's biggest library in Forest of the Dead). However, even then it got away from the way the character was portrayed in Classic Who and therefore they couldn't rely purely on reputation and weren't usually the most important person in the universe (apart from cases such as being declared Lord President of Galifray at the end of the 5 Doctors and even then he ran off) which was even hinted at as being a way the show was going with 11 in series 7 where he deleted information of himself from most galactic data bases but now they're apparently the entire reason Galifray exists as it does? One of my favourite lines from Capaldi's run as the Doctor is from Death in Heaven: "I am an idiot... with a box and a screwdriver. Passing through, helping out, learning." which I think sums up what the Doctor is most of the time and how they should be and in the same scene that Doctor says that "I am not a good man".

[@bluedreams7558]

My new headcanon is the master waited to reveal his plan to the doctor because it took him a while to record his presentation

[@EDITRON]

Master/BBC Marketing: Everything is about to change forever! Fans defending Timeless Children: Well nothing really changes. Master/BBC Marketing: Am i a joke to you?

[@laviarray]

Yes. They are

[@marcuswalters8093]

If the change means nothing, why have it? If it does change everything, it's doing so for the worse.

[@dostatochno]

I'm sick to death of "the Morbius Doctors" being used to defend this or justify it, or even as some sort of minor point in Chibnall's favor. I know that Philip Hinchcliffe said, as producer, he intended them to be Doctors, but it's NOT in the script. You only see one other generation of Morbius, the show had said (not that long before and not that long after, in terms of the overall show) that Baker was the 4th and Hartnell was the 1st (he'd had "2 or 3" regenerations, Hartnell was the "original"), and Morbius was WINNING, driving the Doctor's mind back through time through MORBIUS'S numerous lives. Remember the Doctor was left dying and *would have died* (and maybe not even regenerated) without the elixir from the Sisterhood. Morbius only "lost" the battle due to static overload in his bubble, which we were told was an *unavoidable* consequence of his brain operating in that head. The only logic to that scene is if the other faces were Morbius, regardless of what Philip Hinchcliffe said in an interview years later.

[@ishaandw]

Yeah, the episode was just shouting at us about how it's making Brain of Morbius canon while throwing 50% of who under the bus. Nothing was explicitly said about the Morbius doctors. It's supposed to be ambiguous for a reason

[@ftumschk]

It wasn't just Hinchcliffe. The scriptwriter, Robert Holmes, confirmed they were earlier Doctors and he was consistent about what the faces represent. From Holmes's biography: "As far as Bob was concerned, these faces were most definitely earlier, unseen previous Doctors. ‘Oh yes, I think we went back about seven. In _The Deadly Assassin,_ I put in that Time Lords have only 12 regenerations, so the Doctor must be using up his lives at a fair lick!'" (Interviewed in _Gallifrey_ magazine in 1977) In a 1981 interview, Holmes said: "The contest was a mental tug-of-war. The Doctor got dragged, at first, back through many earlier incarnations. We saw Pertwee, Troughton and Hartnell, followed by several incarnations never seen before." After his death, Holmes was quoted in _Doctor Who In-Vision_ magazine #12, 1989: "We don't know which one Hartnell was, whether he was the first or not. In the phantasmagoric scene where [the Doctor and Morbius] are mind-wrestling, we see the Doctor forced back through a number of regenerations". The article had photographs of the Morbius faces, captioned "The Young Doctors". So Holmes evidently intended this in his script, and it is reflected in what we see and hear on-screen, which is clearly Morbius driving _the Doctor_ back to *his* beginning. He even says so: MORBIUS: How far, Doctor? How long have you lived? (Pertwee appears, then Troughton, then Hartnell, then George Gallaccio and Bob Holmes) MORBIUS: Your puny mind is powerless against the strength of Morbius! (Graeme Harper appears, then Douglas Camfield, Philip Hinchliffe, Robert Banks Stewart and Chris Barry) MORBIUS: Back! Back! To *your* beginning! Back! Back! (The machine explodes)

[@dostatochno]

@@ftumschk still not really relevant since that interpretation conflicts both with what came before and with what came after.

[@ftumschk]

@@dostatochno It doesn't conflict with what went before, because Hartnell's Doctor never claimed to be the first and, furthermore, there were indications that Time Lords could basically live forever, barring accidents. It doesn't really conflict with what came after, either, at least not until Bob Holmes himself invented the 12-regeneration limit in "The Deadly Assassin". And he only did that out of expediency, because he needed to put the Master in jeopardy by placing him at his final incarnation. Another twist came in "The Keeper of Traken", when the Master was given the ability to hijack another person's body - we hadn't seen that before! - until Terrance Dicks came up with the neater idea that Time Lords could be given more than one cycle of regenerations. Given the history of constant reinvention, contradiction and/or bending of the rules, I really don't have a problem with the "Morbius Doctors" (because that's what they are) or the "Timeless Children" for that matter.

[@dostatochno]

​@@ftumschk EDIT: To address supposed word count, other than this intro line this post was 678 words (and has not been altered), not 4000, and literally takes about 2 minutes to read. 2 whole minutes. In "The Three Doctors," the President of the Time Lords asks to be shown the "earliest" Doctor and is shown Hartnell. Hartnell also ribs "my replacements" as being a clown and a dandy which expresses a bit of ownership of The Doctor's personage. Hartnell regenerates into Troughton, Troughton into Pertwee, Pertwee into Baker. I believe that the Fourth Doctor says something to the effect that he'd regenerated "two or three times" himself in a story prior to the Brain of Morbius, but I haven't been able to verify that quote yet. The Deadly Assassin is a whopping 4 stories after The Brain of Morbius. FOUR. The Brain of Morbius is the EIGHTY-FOURTH story and I don't believe there is a single quote in the prior 83 stories to imply that there were more previous doctors. Later, in The Five Doctors, the actor replacing Hartnell refers to himself as "the Original". If all the faces shown are the Doctor except the bust, then we are expected to believe the ridiculous assertion that a Time Lord who was simultaneously a super-genius and a super-villain, had never needed to regenerate before he was captured by the Time Lords for his most capital offense. If Time Lords could regenerate an unlimited number of times, then it would have been positively IMMORAL of the Doctor, a character we have been led to believe is heroic and values the lives of the innocent above his own, to have ever let someone mortal die rather than sacrifice a regeneration of his own. Additionally, the lack of any inherent limit on regenerations breaks almost any scene where the Doctor is ever threatened by anything or anyone. The introduction of an idea that the Master could do something illegal, or at the VERY least exceptionally immoral (and likely very difficult) that was outside of the experience of other Time Lords is perfectly consistent with a character that had been willing to destroy his species, his home world and much much more all for a chance at extending his own life beyond his natural lot. The idea that he'd do all that to keep the superior Time Lord physiology rather than live in an inferior and very very mortal body he hijacked is also consistent. So, no, they AREN'T "The Morbius Doctors." You have one on-the-job writer and one on-the-job producer who were not experts on the canon and whose canon-breaking ideas were not accepted or adopted and aren't actually IN the aired show since it isn't explicit and the story works better if we are seeing many faces of Morbius. If someone wanted to try to justify those ideas later, maybe they could have done so in a well-written and well justified way, but no one did. As for making the Doctor the only true original Time Lord, who has no others like him, who is truly immortal... The "writers" who are there now need to learn that making a character be innately ridiculously special means that they have to DO that much more to actually BE special. Thor or Superman isn't a hero for stopping a purse snatching. It's a nice thing to do and is likely still appreciated but, if anything, it raises the question of whether they shouldn't have been focusing on something more important right then. Who did they let die because they were dealing with something so trivial. Firefighters are heroes because they can't breathe smoke, they aren't immune to burns and they CHOOSE to put their lives on the line to help others. They're heroes because they aren't innately special, not because they are. The Doctor being a Time Lord who chose a different path than other Time Lords and who chooses again and again to put his ACTUAL life on the line to protect others is MUCH more special than The Doctor who is just innately better than all the Time Lords, from a better origin than all the Time Lords and who has let countless others die needlessly because he didn't want to get the equivalent of a papercut.

[@mattyice9535]

I would have preferred the if the Master was the Timeless Child. That would at least make sense when you consider Time Lord society is pretty narcissistic and self indulgent and shitty pretty often. He makes a lot more sense as their genetic ancestor than the Doctor. Like it even makes sense in the context of him being sort of thrown out, as opposed to the Doctor who ran away. And they put a way to control him into his subconscious with the Drumming too. Like if the Doctor is the timeless child, why tf would the Timelords just let him run around for 1,500 years with little supervision? But if it's the Master, and he's their basis but he's too powerful to control, so they throw him out and put a subconscious control in him, that would seem to work a lot better. I know he ran out of regeneration, so it's still a stretch. Would that work better?

[@ginge641]

Better, but it still betrays the character by making him too important. The Master was already explained by exposure to the time vortex. The arrogance would now be a genetic trait they had no part in and not the result of societal stagnation and dominance.

[@mattyice9535]

@@ginge641 yeah I know. It doesn't really work. I guess I'd just prefer they trainwreck the Masters character than The Doctor. What a brutal Retcon. There were retcons during the Moffat and Davies Era, but nothing like this. Nothing that made you go back and have to explain like half of the series away with bad theories and explanations like this.

[@MrPyroCrab]

Better yes but remember a big part of the Master in the classic series was that he had run out of regenerations and was constantly looking for ways to restore his regeneration cycle.

[@mattyice9535]

@@MrPyroCrab indeed. Imagine how enraged the Master would be in the event of finding out that all their struggles, all of their attempts to live forever was for nothing, that they had been controlled and used a least in part from the very beginning. I simply find it more compelling than the Doctor being the Timeless Child. That just feels....idk, just kind of whatever. I'm interested in where they take it, but I'm just more compelled by the hero being your average Time Lord that made the choice to be better, and changed over time to be the hero we know. I know that still technically works under the Timeless Child idea, but i think personally it works for me more with the former idea being the whole of the origin. I didn't think very highly of the Cartmel Master Plan, and while I'm more intrigued by the Timeless Child than the former, I still find it lacking for me personally at this point.

[@dalek_4252]

the twist literaly implies that the doctor sleept with amy and then dated his own daughter. so much to "ThE rEvEaL dOsN't ChAnGe AnyThInG" said by people who defend the timeless children

[@marcuswalters8093]

Destroying Gallifrey defined 3 incarnations of the Doctor. Chibnall writes it like an aside.

[@KeplersDream]

Proper - 'classic' - Doctor Who says "Come along with us and have an adventure." RTD's reboot Who says "Sit there and watch us have an adventure." Chinball's Who says "Sit there and watch us tell each other about an adventure, that you don't get to see. But believe me it was fucking amazing."

[@ginge641]

Care to elaborate on the RTD comment? I haven't seen the classic series. I mean too, but I'd like to know how you made this distinction.

[@comicconcarne]

​@@ginge641 Personally I feel it's a difference between older and newer TV in general. Early television is much more like a stage play, and therefore more audience oriented. There are times in Classic Who where you're meant to shout "look behind you!" or otherwise have some dramatic irony. The audience is a character in theater, like the narrator or chorus, with a special view. NuWho follows contemporary TV trends, where the audience is put in the shoes of one or several characters and has limited information. When done correctly, this can be more suspenseful and foster more empathy towards the characters. For example, look at the differences between Two's "Power of the Daleks" and Nine's "Dalek". The Doctor has met his nemesis before in each of them, but not in this incarnation. But in the former, the daleks are seen doing dastardly deeds before The Doctor knows what's happening, and even when he explains the problem, the scientists aren't convinced - only the audience has seen the depth of their destruction so far. In the latter, the first shot of the titular dalek is when The Doctor sees it. Everyone is aware as soon as it kills, and the issue is it's so difficult to beat. They're different styles, but until recently it still felt like the same story.

[@HiperPivociarz]

Oh my god, I just realized this episode features a Cyberwoman. We've come full circle.

[@leonoraekaterina5838]

Oh god why

[@LukSter18998]

Ah I don’t want to think that

[@wubzy099]

That would mean that river giving her regeneratations to the doctor was in vein so she died for no reason.

[@phantomdriver2010]

At least if The Master was the Timeless Child it wouldn't ruin the whole "The Doctor isn't some prodigal child" angle

[@cloththesupervillain6094]

This. This comment right here. After all, it really fits

[@kyliem3844]

I think Missy & Simm Master were, for the most part, fairly well written. There are cheesy & sus parts (like the “Dinner time!” thing you two mentioned or how Missy whole arc revolves around kinda sorta having a thing for the Doctor) but they did have really good sinister moments. Rewatching Last of the Time Lords is always a gut punch even today. I just feel so bad for Sacha Dhwan because he’s a good actor that deserved better.

[@ThomasStevensontutor]

My dumb hypothesis going into this was that the Doctor would turn out to be EVERY Time Lord. I was still disappointed. Hope you two are feeling better soon!

[@quinnsinclair7028]

The bit you did where it’s like “IT DESTROYS ALL ORGANIC LIFE!... on a planet...” Like they slipped that in so under the radar at the very end.

[@nope-ve9ks]

as someone with dyspraxia.... ive been alive 18 years, been trying to tie my shoes for most of them. it never gets better. (i know im late, but still.)

[@SamJNE122]

As a now 20 year old with dyspraxia... I wear shoes with velcro.

[@Synthpopper]

23. I know the theory (of an allegedly "very easy" method), but it's a 50/50 of if they'll stay done up or come lose within 5 mins

[@pettytyrant2720]

Late to the party but when you say it would be better not to know how many regens the Doctor got at Trenzalore, thats exactly what happened. In Hell bent when Rassilon threatens to kill the Doctor with the Hand of Rassilon he says "How many regenrations did we garnt you? I've got all night." So we the audience, and possibly the Doctor himself dont know how many they granted him. Even Rassilon doesnt seem to know for sure. Its just another thing Chibbers ruined.

[@quinnsinclair7028]

I wish when Yaz had pulled off the cyberhelmet she’d had some human viscera from the former occupant on her head.

[@findoherty6148]

Quinn Sinclair that would’ve been so good

[@TheSmart-CasualGamer]

Or just, the whole brain. They must have had to put them somewhere. (Or were they empty Cybersuits? I can't remember.)

[@phantomsidious2934]

The Master didn't like a part of the doctors essence inside him, didn't he try and take the doctors regenerations in the TV movie and attempt to take over the doctors body in keeper of traken? Master didn't seem to mind then

[@Ben-vf5gk]

It's about control. Everything the master is being because of the Doctor takes away his sense of superiority, with those examples he has agency in it, here he has no sense of control.

[@elizeyt]

the graham and yaz conversation was just chibnall trying to yell at us that yaz IS a good character

[@PhilippeLizard]

You may say ...it wasn't a big finish.

[@adamfreddo5703]

Wouldn't it be Ironic if the master destroyed Galifrey by doing the inverse of what Day of the Doctor did and gathered his previous incarnations to help him do it. Now that would be an interesting story to see.

[@JoboVT]

I just assumed he used a forbidden time lord weapon like the moment or something.

[@volnartheunforgiving3952]

That would be sorta dumb but also really fun to watch

[@judeconnor-macintyre9874]

on Gallifrey whenever you delete a file another Brendon is born into the Matrix. somewhere out there in the Matrix, there is a world of Irish Policemen hanging out.

[@OB-806]

Every single episode that comes out and I see people talking about only validates my decision to drop this show when Capaldi left.

[@dante6985]

That was a smart decision but for clarification's sake it's really in no way Whittaker's fault her Doctor's scripts are so weak. And she's not Colin Baker.

[@daiyahigashikata]

@@dante6985 i really enjoy her performance in *some* episodes, i think she could be great in big finish with a competent writer

[@dante6985]

@@daiyahigashikata Agree!!!!

[@CrayloCreates]

This episode is such a disaster even the title isn’t accurate. The doctor is the only Timeless Child so why is it called “The Timeless Children”?

[@andrewsmart4491]

I believe it's referring to the several child incarnations, which kind of suggests that Chibnall thinks the various incarnations of The Doctor are different people rather than facets of the same man

[@CrayloCreates]

Andrew Smart God I hope not.

[@dante6985]

@@andrewsmart4491 That and all Timelords are "Children" of the Doctor because they have her DNA.

[@katarinabrunk8698]

@@andrewsmart4491 oh dear God no, why was he the next show runner again?

[@CozmicEmbyrs]

Based on the lead in we had with the end of Ascension of the Cybermen where the portal leads to Gallifrey, my assumption going in to the Timeless Children was that the existence of the Time Lords was itself part of a strange paradoxical loop that reveals the Time Lords were *human.* More specifically, the humans who escaped the Cyber War ended up fleeing to Gallifrey's pre-history, and with the unique timey-wimey properties of the planet, they'd have gradually evolved into the Time Lords we know today. I'm certain this reveal would've also pissed a lot of people off, not least of which because this *also* makes The Doctor somewhat instrumental to the development of the Time Lords, plus them being hyperevolved humans.

[@nancyhi8357]

11:03 I have dyspraxia and it is kind of complex, its a coordination disability and i usually explain it by saying i have control over my limbs but each movement i do there will be some form of separation between what i am intending my arms to do and what they end up doing but i can reduce the difference with concentration/ muscle memory. so if i do something enough times i wont be telling my hands what to do, which is where the separation happens. so he probably would be able to practice at most sports, (though i personally really really struggle with throwing and catching balls but that might just be me). though I'm probably not the best example because my autism (or maybe something else, who knows) means that sometimes my scenes are a little weird and it can be hard to figure out whether the problem is with the input or the output?

[@alexrobertssings]

That's an excellent description of it! I also massive struggle with throwing stuff and judging distances. Its frustrating because I know what I want to do but my hands and eyes just don't comply!

[@ironeddy69]

Are we now calling this episode Hell Bent 2: Electric boogaloo

[@RememberCitadel]

Hell Bent 2 (or You're Gonna Miss Moffat When He's Gone)

[@FerretLG1]

ProcrastinatingPuma it’s pretty damn bad but in comparison to anything like this it’s looking alright

[@maximusthedude8305]

Wait... people hate Hell Bent? Why? It wasn’t that great and certainly not a particularly good follow up to Heaven Sent but it was perfectly fine.

[@saoranachnah-alba723]

I think It is more of a sequel to parting of the way in theme

[@RyanJSmith]

We need Cybermen with KKK hoods the next time they decide we need to be lectured about racism. You can't spell Doctor Who without subtlety

[@Reprodestruxion]

Dude any marxist can write better than Chibnall

[@daiyahigashikata]

earlier episodes handled racism and other political issues in a great way, doctor who has always been political and i love it that way but this writer seems to be pretending to be left wing while being unable to stop making cringe "leftists and children bad" jokes... but at the same time being incredibly preachy about what he's saying

[@vadandrumist1670]

Welp, there goes any hope of there being a satisfying finish. They should've left that question until the last season, and in the tail end episodes that that. Not only that, but now the Doctor lives forever. It's like, how you'll eat less food if there's a limitless amount, than if there was a lot but not limitless you'll try to finish the plate. You can't really be pumped to stick with a show till the end if there is no foreseeable end.

[@mtgradwell]

"They should've left that question until the last season, and in the tail end episodes that that." - Ironically, that may be exactly what they have done.

[@vadandrumist1670]

@@mtgradwell They've already said there's gonna be another season.

[@mtgradwell]

@@vadandrumist1670 It may not be in their hands any more. If Boris Johnson moves quickly to abolish the Licence fee then shows will have to justify their cost by the revenue they bring in. The Dr. Who season finale brought in significantly less viewers than either Countryfile (on immediately before) or Antiques Roadshow (immediately after), and I'm pretty sure it cost a LOT more to make than either of those shows. Like, several times as much. People were actively switching off or over at the end of Countryfile, and switching back for Roadshow. And that was BEFORE they knew precisely how bad the season finale was going to be.

[@ginge641]

Doctor Who has always had that problem. It won't end as long as it makes money, and no conclusion would satisfy all the canon to wrap up. Now it's baked into the canon that the Doctor can never end.

[@mathieuleader8601]

Pip and Jane Baker are laughing in their graves now at Chibnall

[@ClaireWritesSometimes]

I agree with you guys, but you forget that to tie anything in to Trenzilore or acknowledge the River Song plotholes would take Chibnal remembering and acknowledging that the Moffat era happened

[@tituslafrombois1164]

I love Jay talking about all the editing he's going to do that he absolutely never did 😂

[@HyenaDandy]

IU said this on your other video but I just really love how the thing that Ryan can't do is something that literally the best basketball players on earth would ALSO struggle to do. Like, "Oh no, my dyspraxia means I can't make a contested no-dribble fadeaway three." Like, yeah, sure, but also the fact that you're trying to do a no-dribble fadeaway three has something to do with it. It'd be like if (in Association Football) a guy was like "Oh man, thanks to my disability, I wasn't able to stop all five penalty kicks in a row in overtime." Yeah, sure, youc ouldn't, but I don't blame your disability.

[@diegodankquixote-wry3242]

No wonder why we all dislike who doctor now. The doctor was an orphan the whole time!

[@carealoo744]

And the show's about 55 Years old!

[@diegodankquixote-wry3242]

@@carealoo744 did I just hear an *age'tism?*

[@carealoo744]

... You get what I'm saying right? Orphan 55?

[@diegodankquixote-wry3242]

@@carealoo744 but the head doctor is 89 years old!

[@carealoo744]

@@diegodankquixote-wry3242 Uh... What?

[@Dubble77D]

41:50 This. They should have held off on a plot device that would give the Doctor infinite lives until the end of this new regeneration cycle THANK YOU. 100% agree. 44:20 ALSO this. Rassilon straight up says in Hell Bent "How many regenerations did we grant you? I've got all night." which implied that literally no one knows how much regeneration energy they gave the Doctor. Could be enough for just a few more, or maybe in their haste and frantically trying to salvage their planet, they wayyy overdid it without realizing and now it's basically infinite.

[@CraigMurraysVids]

Poor Stu sounds so depressed by the end. Big hugs mate.

[@ThePriceOfDr3ams]

I swear, when they introduced the "cyberlords," I was expecting for the master to break the 4th wall and declare the whole mf series to be an exercise in trolling. Capaldi is my favorite doctor. It took me over 2 years to commit to watching the new seasons. .. I've made worst decisions in my life, but not many.

[@sunthorn4782]

I always thought that he got his infinite regenerations from when 11 was about to die the crack came out and gave them infinite regenerations but apparently it was because the doctor is extra special

[@batmanbeyond5766]

This episode should of came with a health warning: "don't watch if you like quality content/doctor who"

[@katarinabrunk8698]

Or a disclaimer lol 😆

[@AnUnearthlyGay]

I've been ill all week. I'm now blaming this episode.

[@finn_underwood]

My favourite leitmotif is easily "All the strange, strange creatures" and "This is Gallifrey" ones. ...I know I just named the names of OST tracks, not leitmotifs, but... the point is, I like the themes of those, and I didn't want to just go "the 10th Doctor's leitmotif" and "Gallifrey's leitmotif".

[@IrtisamAhmed]

I hope the next showrunner just comes and says that the whole Powerpoint Presentation was a fake by the Master! TADA!

[@thatoneguy4452]

I don't remember the Doctor being half human. The scenes in Ireland were so weird, it looked like it was some sort of concurrent plot, but then the Doctor just says she was having visions of Ireland. It wasn't conveyed at all. Does the Cybermasters having regeneration make sense? They're already dead, so how can they regenerate?

[@Jedi_Spartan]

His species was covered in the TV movie.

[@thatoneguy4452]

@@Jedi_Spartan I watched it when it aired, but I was like five and barely remember anything.

[@Jedi_Spartan]

@@thatoneguy4452 good point, I've only watched it in full once (I think) and the only other experience I have is a video of Council of Geeks and Stubagful discussing it.

[@quinnsinclair7028]

The 1996 movie was intended to be a reboot of the series. In that reboot the Doctor was the result of a love affair between a time lord called Ulysses and a human woman. Luckily the only thing that actually made it into the script from the bonkers reboot plan was the Master revealing that the Doctor was half human.

[@justbilton1576]

Wàaàaaaaàaàà

[@MrDarthT]

The explanation for either The Master or The Doctor running out of regenerations is that the Time Lords restricted their own regenerations, and could have done so to the Timeless Child as well. So it's possible that either The Doctor or The Master COULD have been The Timeless Child. It would actually be kind of cool if The Master found out HE was The Timeless Child, and tricked The Doctor into thinking SHE was The Timeless Child, hoping that she would fly into a rage like he did. A sort of "Killing Joke" idea, where The Master wants to prove that ANYONE would do what he did to Gallifrey, even The Doctor.

[@breadplaysyougames]

They ask chat: what do you think? Then I immediately got an ad saying: pain, is it changing your mood?

[@Jedi_Spartan]

1:09:12 "Yeah. Overloads the Matrix by trying to understand Doctor Who canon." That would probably destroy stuff like the Matrix or Halo's Domain given how convoluted it is at this point (and how there are several mindfuck style Big Finish stories).

[@TheSmart-CasualGamer]

Especially the flash games, considering in those you can have the Cybermen win the war against the Preachers, put K9 in everything, kill the Doctor during the events of "Dalek", and create stupid crossovers with the trailer maker.

[@Jedi_Spartan]

@@TheSmart-CasualGamer yeah, I doubt those are all that concerned with Canon. I remember playing those when I was younger though, I quite liked them.

[@Addy_The_Baddy]

Honestly they should introduce a Cyber Absorbaloph next season

[@romulusnuma116]

There should be one Absorbaloph based episode ever season

[@Reprodestruxion]

Imagine how the people behind the Amblin script (when Borusa was the Doctor’s and the Master’s dad) and the TV Movie feel now . Or the Shalka people

[@dalek_4252]

20:00 this image basicly says "lol the cyberman are just people in suits" rather then them suposebly being horrifiying bits of flesh brain and technology like they are supposed to

[@dalek_4252]

edited cause im to stupid to type

[@johnlowe6611]

Was this the world's first "pre-trolling"...When Missy comes out of the Tardis, says " Hello, I'm Doctor Who. These are my assistants, exposition and comic relief". ... Did Moffat have a precognition that this was going to be the standard of writing to come?

[@johnlowe6611]

@Shadow Hawk very possibly. There was all that bit with Capaldi's doc saying maybe he shouldn't regenerate and should just stop here lol. I guess the BBC didn't listen lol

[@finn_underwood]

Master destroys Gallifrey because every time-lord is now part-doctor, and he wants to kill the doctor, so he kills every time-tord to rid the universe of the doctor's taint. ...i think.

[@TheRealUnkn0wn_289]

Huh?? but why

[@JoboVT]

Well I think he killed gallifrey because the master hates that the only reason he has survived this long and become who he is is because of the Dr and the time lords are to blame for that so he decided to wipe out the time lords

[@shanephelps3898]

Matt Smith's Doctor had to be given a NEW cycle of regenerations....because he was on his last regeneration. So The Doctor couldn't be the timeless child.12 regenerations=HARTNALL 1ST DOCTOR. And the master ruined 'assention of the cybermen' with his hammy acting /acting silly, trying to be jon simm (like jodie trying to be matt smith/tennent). Roger delgado and ainley were good masters.....simm and sacha rubbish...TRYING TO DO A CARICATURE OF MAD AND MAD =EVIL.........SO MUCH FOR THE MENTAL HEALTH AWARNESS THEY TRIED TO GIVE A FEW EPISODES EARLIER. How did the fake master kill the timelords (wouldn't they regenerate?)...so they're actually dead....but then used to make cybermen...THAT CAN REGENERATE!!!!!!

[@zenithd.8781]

48:01 "You were adopted" I died XD

[@manzanaproductions]

4:06 Yaz is the new Clara...Awesome and Amazing because the writers said so!

[@ftumschk]

Nothing wrong with Clara. Nothing wrong with Yaz. Both rose to the occasion when they were given worthwhile things to do.

[@manzanaproductions]

ftumschk I definitely agree on those points, for sure. My biggest hang up is that it didn’t happen as often as it probably should have OR it all happened off screen and it left me with being told this with not much to go on.

[@mattyice9535]

c'monnnn, Clara is so much better than Yaz. Like leagues better. Clara actually has development. And great chemistry with her Doctors.

[@booradley8895]

@@mattyice9535 You mean doctor Clara?

[@mattyice9535]

@@booradley8895 dawg I've seen you going from post to post on multiple Doctor Who videos, shitting on people that like Clara and the 12th Doctor. You don't have constructive dialogue with people, and so you're not worth my energy. So, on behalf of a number of myself and I'm sure some other annoyed folks, shove off.

[@Myne1001]

1:31:13 -1:31:38 "You could this as an attempt to refresh dusty old canon" I agree. Though you'd do this as a multiple season thing. Maybe have multiple stories reference it, with a team of writers all working on this goal. You could call it a "masterplan" of sorts with a big reveal story. No idea what you'd call the big reveal...Lungbarrow, maybe? Idk completely random title, no idea where I go that one from.

[@rebelprincess1164]

The Doctor had a line in Kill The Moon where he said “I don’t actually know how many regenerations I have left, so I could just keep regenerating forever” so the idea of ditching the limit was already done.

[@fruitchewx127]

23:00 I mean it makes as much sense as the doctor being the timeless child. The 11th doctor was seemingly out of regenerations in time of the doctor

[@virgom.3542]

I've read fanfictions more well thought out than this episode

[@sacrificiallamb4568]

Actually, The Time Lords may have given The Doctor infinite life. It could be their final revenge. See Hell Bent.

[@sacrificiallamb4568]

The revenge bit was my idea.

[@katarinabrunk8698]

Cause I'm sure the Doctor would HATE the idea of living forever wich is understandable.

[@viviancocoa8639]

This has reminded me of Love and Monsters, and the images it seared into my brain so long ago.

[@Ben-vf5gk]

I wanted Susan to be the Timeless Child

[@Aioria0171]

I wanted Susan to be The Other. :)

[@Ben-vf5gk]

@@Aioria0171 I wanted her to be both. Seriously, bring her back already

[@Ben-vf5gk]

@@meatrace "One day I will come back"... WHEN?!

[@meatrace]

@@Ben-vf5gk Season 6B?

[@Ben-vf5gk]

@@meatrace Did the 2nd Doctor meet her in an audio or something?

[@TheGodOfGravy]

I just realised. Chib Butty was probably trying to fix the amount of regenerations that The Doctor can have permanently so it wouldn’t be a problem in the future. That said, it didn’t need to be done thanks to Moffat giving 11 a new set of regenerations. We’ve had 1 regeneration since then. So we have another 11 Doctors until it’s a problem again. That’s at the very least 11 years until it’s a problem, if every new Doctor only does 1 series each. Does Fish n’ Chibs think he’ll still be running the show in 10 years?

[@sacrificiallamb4568]

Actually, The Time Lords may have given The Doctor infinite life. It could be their final revenge. See Hell Bent.

[@HyenaDandy]

Honestly a Cyberdalek is way more effective than Cyber-Time Lord. >_>

[@ChimeratAlpha]

Potential Spoilers for the River Song storyline: . . . . . . . . . 41:00 Lovely... So River Song gave up her regenerations for no reason then. The Doctor was never out? That's dumb. It would have made a very slight amount more sense if they'd at least said that the regenerations for all of the Time Lords came from her limit. It was balanced out, so she also had only 12 left, because everyone else had gained 12. Meanwhile, I agree that the auto-trust that the Master isn't lying is extra dumb in this context.

[@PhialSubstance]

It would've been better if they made it so regenerations could be traded, so the Doctor could live indefinitely if other time lords were willing to sacrifice their lives to push him beyond the limit of 13. Could have created some great moral conundrums that way too. E.g. the doctor is injured, hes dying and the universe is in danger. So he has to convince another time lord to give up their final regeneration so he can save the universe. BOOM, interesting concept for an episode.

[@themoxcast]

Steven Moffat had Capaldi say "I might keep regenerating forever." He also had Rassilon say "How many regenerations did we grant you?". So, there's that...

[@judeconnor-macintyre9874]

Here's a fun fact in Let's Kill Hitler on Rivers medicals it shows she has two hearts. so... Doctor is Rivers dad confirmed, and Susan is the Doctor's grand daughter and daughter

[@charliewarner787]

Can we all agree that Ryan is the worst written character in new who?

[@SuperFunkmachine]

He has the ability to disappear out of the plot, three companions is a third of the lines an time as a normal companion. (Nardole did the same in some storys.)

[@ftumschk]

Correct. Possibly the worst written companion in the history of the show, in fact. Even Adric and Mel had verve.

[@Aioria0171]

I guess Ryan only loses to Yaz.

[@booradley8895]

Clara

[@laviarray]

@@booradley8895 Clara had at least a personality and a relationship with the doctor. Ryan, Graham and Yaz don't. Graham at least had the conflict of his dead wife, but as a companion... Lets be honest, they all tie for bottom.

[@jrs4753]

47:58 Best analogy ever

[@KaladinVegapunk]

The parallels between 13 & 6 are kind of crazy haha Bad showrunner, bad scripts, rainbow outfit, inconsistent doctor, morally iffy, forced connections to the lore and overabundance of reincorporated stuff, I saw an article comparing it and it was like woah holy crap haha

[@JoboVT]

I mean personally I liked Sacha's master I felt like his performance was good but I do understand why some people don't like it

[@jesspetty8163]

i unironically like love and monsters. like in an it’s so bad it’s good kinda way, there something about a large flesh absorbing peter kay that i love 😂

[@nifralo2752]

That is liking it ironically

[@Dokimon]

I don't get the reasoning behind the whole timeless child thing. So every episode we meet some doctor popping up? What's the end game here? sigh, I miss Moffat.

[@Matthew_Raymond]

We’ve secretly replaced the Doctor’s mysterious backstory with Folgers Crystals. Let’s see if Jay can tell the difference.

[@sugar1905]

"It's perfectly listenable"

[@kenhatemongerstevensofthet3085]

Hope you are well out there jay! Sorry doctor who died.

[@finn_underwood]

The volume fluctuations are effecting my ability to enjoy the commentary due to my ears physically hurting from the deafly-quiet to ear-rape to deafly-quiet again. Just giving my feedback on that regard, since Jay didn't seem to have his ears hurt. Idk, I might be a minority. (And no, it's not because my volume is too loud nor is it my headphones being wonky; the pain is similar to walking from a dark room to a bright room, except for ears rather than eyes.)

[@Ben-vf5gk]

I'm okay with the explanation of how timelords got regeneration, e.g. they stole DNA - it only contradicts one thing from Zagreus. I like what it did for the Master's motivation but hated what it does for the Doctor. Also this sets up stuff next series, oh hello there Moffat! The Cybermasters, where the timeless child came from what Tecteun left for the Doctor. Why couldn't they do something with the Cybermasters now? Just tell a story now. Also how did the Master work that out, all he saw was that the Timeless Child exists how does he know it's the Doctor.

[@bradlast7839]

Why did you like it for the Masters motivation It doesn't realistically actually do anything for his motivation The only thing it would do is just reaffirm his inferiority complex that I'm pretty sure he already had by this point I don't understand at all how that then became the motivation to burn a planet Assuming he actually did that

[@Ben-vf5gk]

@@bradlast7839 His inferiority complex has never been taken to this level before, until this time he could cling to the idea that they were equals but now? The only reason he exists and has lived this long is cause of the Doctor? That's a gamechanger. It's like the loss of Gallifrey with Simm's master- he copes with it by resorting to similar tactics e.g. taking over the world but now it has a new context. Making cyber masters makes sense as a way of one-upping the Doctor as a creator but also fits in with previous schemes the Master has had. Also, the Master has tried to destroy Gallifrey before e.g. Deadly Assassin- he has a connection to the place but it always comes after him.

[@bradlast7839]

@@Ben-vf5gk that's a rational reading But my other problem with that is what happened to any of the story moffat wrote I can't let got that chinball is just ignoring canon to like a silly disrespectful degree

[@Ben-vf5gk]

@@bradlast7839 I get that, the Doctor Falls is my favourite Doctor Who story but I kinda expected that to happen regardless of who the showrunner is.- the Master is too iconic to let go. I never bought it as the Master's death but just Missy's and that the Master will never be redeemed like new who has been hinting at for most of its run. If it helps both Moffat and Dhawan said it's up to the fans to decide how it works which can be fun at times. I know some are headcanoning that Missy is the last incarnation and I might too.

[@bradlast7839]

@@Ben-vf5gk I just wish chibnall bothered to make a connection or somewhat of an explanation Allot of the decisions of chibnall as a show runner have been so obviously bad that it makes me wonder if he really is just incompetent or if he has an amount of contempt for the series as it was

[@Payne2view]

People keep saying Doctor Who is for kids because they probably hope the audience will have a child-like unquestioning of their authority. The trouble is even the younger audience see the problems. I'm glad/sad that you've reminded me that The Timeless Child can't be the Master because The Master has had to use non-regenerational means to survive and take-over people's bodies etc. I'm utterly confused and conflicted by it all.

[@TheSmart-CasualGamer]

The War Absorbaloff came from Grimsby, same as all other War Absorbaloffs, do you not read the wiki?

[@britishnerd3919]

I'm guessing the basketball thing was a reaction to the dyspraxia not having any impact last season.

[@benhayward2597]

Is stu's mic some kind of weird allegory for the Timeless Child? If so, that theming.

[@ftumschk]

Exposition dumping is apparently the new style; I've adjusted to it, and I really enjoyed this episode as a result. "I don't like the Avengers/James Bond" - then adjust to or avoid the Pertwee era. "I don't like gothic" - then adjust to or avoid the Hinchcliffe/Holmes era. "I don't like surreal" - then adjust or avoid the Williams/Adams era. "I don't like pseudoscience" - then adjust to or avoid the JNT/Bidmead era; etc. It's as simple as that. Vive la difference!

[@allowableman2]

There's a big difference between a genre shift and just shit writing.

[@ftumschk]

@Cyrus Wolfe I'm not defending anything, and I do acknowledge the current set-up's deficiencies - as I have with previous eras in the show's history. I can live with them, that's all I'm saying.

[@judeconnor-macintyre9874]

shouldn't the Cyberman realize they're not connected to four cyberman, or that four cyberman were killed.

[@SuperFunkmachine]

Ko Sharmus should of been Ace, bombs, big stick , unfazed by the tardis.

[@chrislawley6801]

The Master more than lied forcing the Doctor into psychosis from the start of the 13th Doctor's episodes. The Time Lords then brought her back to a hospital on Gallifrey where she is in a coma, believing she is in the Judoon prison. Next she will meet Sam Tyler and Gene Hunt having to solve a murder of an 11 year old boy in Dorset ; )

[@JRHainsworth]

This means that the only people who can regenerate who aren’t purely gallifryean are River and Susan, and zone of Susan’s parents.

[@tomorrowsclassic505]

IT'S ARRIVED...

[@unorthodoxbox]

I hate the timeless child being the Doctor, in fact I hate it so much I am going to write my own premise for series 12 just as a way to vent and me as a novice writer just get back at Chibnall. The Timeless child is the progenitor of the timelords ability to regenerate, but Rassilon Omega and the Other hid this wanting to go for a more grandiose history and legecy. They hid this information and the Timeless child and sadly this knowledge is lost due to the Time War, the Master on his final incarnation is up to his old tricks trying to find a means of surviving past the twelve regenerations limit and on his travels through the universe learns of the Timeless child. On Gallifrey with the Matrix he is able to find some information hidden deep but with the Other vanished, Omega trapped he attempts to get information from Rassilon only to discover the Doctor booted him of the planet. Angered by this he decimates the entire planet of Gallifrey only intending to stop when he gets answers on the Timeless child, but nobody knows and Gallifrey is a corpse of itself after the Master is done. Knowing he could live potentially forever if he acquires the Timeless child he sets forward on his quest to find Rassilon wherever he is to get information. I'm not gonna call this good this is just what I wrote up in the heat of the moment that to me I feel would've worked as a good series arc that retains the history of the show rather than ignoring it has a call back to the Time War and the events of Hell Bent and ramifications for the Doctor's actions. How would the Doctor Graham Yaz and Ryan fit into this, I dunno I'd leave that to more professional writers.

[@comicconcarne]

I read a short story in a literature class, "Those Who Walk Away From Omelas". Basically, there's a utopian society - the details are left up to the reader - but in order to have this society, one child has to live in squalor in a small, dark room. They beg to be released. Everyone is aware of, and has seen, this child, but most conclude it's for the best. Some, however, decide to quietly leave the city. They could have done that. It would have perfectly fit into the Time Lord's corruption. Maybe The Doctor and The Master were both supposed to meet the Child, but since they both ran away from the Academy early, never learned where regenerations actually originated. The Child is forced to live each regeneration's death when it happens. It turns out The Master burned Gallifrey in retaliation but - with that little scrap of kindness he gained in Series 10 - he set the Child free. The Doctor faces the conflict of the entire planet's life versus one being's life, from which she profited, calling back to that "just save one person" idea. Series 13 is then set up, with the goal to find the escaped Child and perhaps build a more sustainable Gallifreyan society. There, you now have relevant social commentary, a lore-accurate story, and some touching on-screen moments.

[@starseb21]

@@comicconcarne Now that's interesting, because that's basically the premise of "The Beast Below". I wonder if Moffat was inspired by that short story?

[@StefanTravis]

The more I think about this season, the shittier it gets. So maybe it's fractally shitty - you can go infinitely deep, and it's shitty on all scales.

[@TheGabbernaut]

56:01 Sweet Home Alabama

[@worsethanyouthink]

There is an easy way to fix this either the rimless child wasn't the doctor or the doctor isn't the timeless one yet while it would make a paradox of how regeneration began it doesn't invalidate everyone's sacrifices

[@Mecharnie_Dobbs]

Immortal characters are fine as long as they don't time travel. We've seen 'The 5 Doctors' and 'The Two Doctors' Next: 'The Hundred-Billion Doctors'. The entire universe will fill up with The Doctor.

[@doolittlecraftsmann302]

I can hear this.

[@YuzuruA]

this was a live who needed some good editing

[@justaghostinthesea]

I'm 99% sure that the Timeless Child thing was done so that the Doctor could have infinite regenerations and nip the whole 'Regeneration Cycle' thing in the bud. And you know what? That's fine. It was going to happen sooner or later. But HOLY HELL did fixing one problem create such a massive new one.