"Mythic Raiding Needs To Change"

🔴 Live Monday-Friday here: / naguura
I am an ex-World First raider in World of Warcraft, streaming and casting high end PvE content in MMORPG's. I occasionally also stream other games!
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#worldofwarcraft #naguura #gaming

[@onethreeify]

"give us back artifact power" said no one ever

[@Clydelyng]

The race to world first is quite small compared to something like the International. Its simply not something that will draw in new players. Returning players sure, but not new players, given that they will have no clue what is going on.

[@unhingedcrouton]

Mythic raids are built on ancient system that eviscerates participation. It should've been changed years ago.

[@Danishdrums]

Agreed. Its an out dated design. Imho, when the hall of fame is filled, they should convert mythic to flex raid like the other difficulties, and remove the weekly lockout as well. Sure, some bosses would be easier/harder that way, but who cares. They could always tune the bosses week by week at that point.

[@davidt2956]

they need to go back to old raiding

[@unhingedcrouton]

@@davidt2956yeah definetly. If they want to make the game even worse.

[@jimmiekarlsson4458]

@@davidt2956 No thank you, the old systems is outdated shit , made for braindead people that only can keep a track of 1-2 mechanics.

[@3d1m4nd3r]

I thought I was the only one who uses a knife to eat an apple this way and everyone else just bites it. Good to know I'm not alone :D

[@mewre2062]

nah all homies eat it with a knife. its part of bein a homie.

[@DrGashingtons]

Mythic raiding needs a revamp. Maybe even just get rid of it. Wow was better when raiding wasn’t like a full time job. Raids back in the day were loads better. They were easier meaning more people were doing them. I don’t even bother raiding now. I just push keys. It’s more fun and quicker.

[@Einarr_Norge]

no.

[@limulo88]

raids being easier i wonder when... if they are hard now stick to looking for raid... no need to push your head further

[@DrGashingtons]

@@limulo88 I didn’t say they were hard for me. 😂 I meant just in general for majority of people. Im almost cap ilvl. It’s just more fun to play with my irl friends who don’t care about the game like us losers. Mythic raids need a massive overhaul. It’s overturned for the RWF. Then the rest of the players aren’t actually good enough for it. As they have to nerf it. They are best of having a contest mode just for these RWF guilds.

[@limulo88]

@@DrGashingtons ok for the separate stuff for RWF but you are not forced to do mythic raiding, I will never clear nowadays mythic but I don’t care, if it’s a challenge let it up being like that, not that they are moving resources to make mythic raiding from another department of the game…

[@Lusroc]

Honestly? The most fun I've ever had was during WoTLK and Legion, and both times had incentives to be playing all day. During Legion, I felt like there was ALWAYS something to do. Each minute I spent in game, I was becoming more powerful. But yeah, I like it when it's hardcore... Does it fit well with my life? NO. Can I keep it up for an entire expansion? HELL NO. Am I bored AF with the current "progression" system? My God YES.

[@Danishdrums]

Theyre practically designing mythic for two guilds (echo/liquid). No matter what the marketing value is, thats ridiculous.

[@tommy4862]

That's incorrect. They design last 2 bosses for them, which are also nerfed by the time any people who can't beat them get to them. By the time average cutting edge guild kills Smolderon, Tindral is getting nerfed. What is wrong with that? Do you think first 3 bosses are designed for Echo? It's a total joke for them, killed in one pull every time.

[@georgeindestructible]

Mostly the entire game you mean.

[@Imorteus]

@@tommy4862 look up stats on how many guilds have killed tindral and fyrakk vs other raids last 2 bosses. its not just an opinion that its too hard

[@ThrallsHammer]

@@tommy4862 Whats wrong is that barely anyone plays Mythic raiding anymore. Its a complete waste of resources. Look at the participation numbers they are awful. Not only this, becase mythic raiding has the best loot in the game it indirectly affects EVERY other part of World of Warcraft. M+ and heroic raiding are both indirectly affected. Lastly RWF players claim that they dont ask for the game to be balanced around them, yet all complained and some even threatened to quit the game because the S2 tier was so short.

[@mewre2062]

@@tommy4862how u say thats incorrect and than in the same fucking breath so its correct .

[@Sebleh]

How to fix mythic raiding: -Reduce mythic raid size -make lockouts the same as heroic to encourage people to play outside their raid groups -if the lockouts aren’t changed, they need to look at itemization to incentivize reclears instead of week 1 lockout extensions -split tier into two raids (easy to mid/hard bosses in one, hardest end bosses on the second) -remove raid buffs -remove any mechanics designed entirely around one class’s utility (IE painsmith needing lock gates or tight spread add dps windows that require grips) -make clearer mechanic indicators (why is it circle=bad, swirl=bad, but circle+swirl=soak?), consistency in graphical clarity is also required (some mechanics in the past have hit on the edges of the telegraph, while others hit just before the edges?), if they like us using lists to solve private auras why can’t they just give us numerical indicators to circumvent the list? The game should honestly provide the graphic and audio clarity to remove the reliance on weak aura prog.

[@badass6300]

painsmith didn't really need lock gates though. Clearer mechanic indications would be great and I don't even use addons and still think it should be better. By "Reduce mythic raid size", do you mean reduce the size of the group? Because if so, I totally agree 10 man groups are awesome, 15 man groups are still great. 20 are too big. I don't think raid buffs are bad at all, I think they are great. I don't think that there should be an easy and hard raid per tier, just bosses that get easier as you get better gear as it used to be pre-MoP.

[@Sebleh]

@@badass6300 The first released iteration of mythic painsmith didn’t have a gap on the last row of spikes in the intermission. I don’t even remember what the original intent was but I do vaguely remember people were having to jump around the platform and use grips and all kinds of inconsistent movement things to get around it until they made warlock gates work and even later on after the RWF they opened one square in a hotfix. Yes I did mean raid group sizes. I think 8-9 bosses for a raid tier is fine. For raid group sizes, probably 12-15 would be solid. I’ve done 10-man raiding in Legion/BFA and it feels extremely punishing to lose a b res or healer early by comparison to 20. Raid buffs need to go because they lock classes in your comp. I’m an okay player at best, it’s always been visible in my logs, and I’ve been recruited into guilds that were way past my prog point, even offered reclears when undergeared, just so I can bring my class buffs/utility into the raid. I don’t mean make one raid easy and one harder. There’s a clear difficulty scale of face roll easy bosses at the start, the middle is a bit more complex, and the last few bosses are supposed to be really difficult. I’m saying split that into two raids that are part of the same tier because the delta in difficulty for example between Gnarlroot and Tindral is massive.

[@badass6300]

@@Sebleh I didn't know it was such on mythic as I haven't raided mythic since Legion. Yup, nobody does 10 man groups anymore, it's either 14, 18, 20 or 22. To me 10-12 man groups are the best. I see, you are right about the difference in difficulty being too big between the first and last boss, usually in 12-14 boss raids that is spread better, in 8-9 boss raids it's jarring. But sometimes there is a middle boss that is just as hard as the second to last boss. I also agree that 8-9 bosses for a tier is good, 12-14 should be for the final tier, so that there is more content to do between the expansions, but again split in multiple raids. In my opinion some of the best tiers have been the multi-raid ones, like Tier 4 in TBC and Tier 11 in Cata were the best raid splits and tiers ever. Legion and BFA also had a tier with two raids, one big and one small raid, those were awesome too. The problem with buffs seems to be only when doing mythic, Heroic doesn't need such strict buffing. So if anything, just make Mythic not need min-maxed buffs to solve the problem.

[@AdamTreier]

My guild is hard walled every season by the fact that we can't pug people in for prog. 1 person leaves on the 3rd boss because they already got their vault choice and now we can not pug an additional player that isn't going to get a vault choice. The only solution is to recruit so many people that some have to sit on the bench and that is not fun for the people on the bench or the people making the decision of who has to be benched.

[@Sebleh]

@@AdamTreier I’m sure I’m not the only one who aside from that has also seen someone who is forced to reroll for some niche mechanic and leaves after we kill the boss, leaving us without a core member (and sometimes officer) to continue. High demand spec, gets geared and practiced, might as well just go somewhere better that needs it. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@dcalliou7]

Mythic raiding requires you live in your moms basement and play 12 hours a day

[@Hvemlol]

The Race to World First is not a good advertisement for WoW. Nobody can tell what the hell is going on on the screen. AddOn sound effects are super annoying. It does not look as epic as the WoW diehards think it does. WoW was never a good esport game...

[@btm9652]

I think class buffs should exist but not at the power level they are at. With Arcane intellect it should be something like 1% rather than the 5% it is now - enough that means your class should be brought if it is at least decently tuned and enough to stop rwf teams full on stacking one single class on a boss (like 10 sub rogues on smolderon perhaps) but small enough that the rwf teams could consider dropping them if they are bad enough or if another class is good enough, either in general or on a specific boss. This would also mean that the disadvantage for not having just one of the raid buffs one week for a lower mythic guild wouldn't be as drastic. As for the question of classes that have specs from multiple roles, if rather than raid buffs the specs brought something unique and useful enough then it would fulfil the same purpose. Prot paladin and blood dk are prime examples where mass grip and spellwarding just have so many use cases in a mythic raid environment. Spatial paradox is another similarly strong ability unique to a spec - you could even do something like move blessing of the bronze to being specific to Pres evoker and give Devastation some other unique 'raid bonus'. As for Shaman, Enhance has windfury (which is strong enough that it would probably need a nerf as it's a pseudo raid buff), so give the other shaman specs something similar. If they are set on mana being of more importance for healers then perhaps have resto shaman have a mana tide totem that's meaningful enough to be considered in more healing intense or longer fights. Raid buffs have potential and a world without them would lead to more problems than it would solve I think, but in their current state they reduce the diversity of rwf comps, make getting 20 people together multiple times a week more of a challenge than it already is and leads to situations where specs within a class fight eachother for raid spots particularly when they spread multiple roles.

[@TheRabidSniper]

"The Race to World First".... If Blizzard thinks the RWF is important, but they're tuning Mythic around it, they should just create a tournament realm with the raid tuned for these folks. And release a better tuned Mythic raid live for everyone else.

[@mewre2062]

ion alreadycostus

[@HesarisYT]

I dont think we want blizzard to incentivise us to play all the time using farming or chores, I think we just want the game to be fun enough that we want to get on.

[@ChinnuWoW]

Why can’t we respawn at the boss after a wipe? Why can’t food buffs persist through death? Running back to the boss and eating after every wipe is not fun, just a waste of time.

[@EnriqueGonzalez18362]

Yes, I can't agree more.

[@Painchiller]

lifehack, soulstone a healer while in progress and almost never has to walk back again.

[@MarkElf2204]

Soulstone a healer and food pocket don't take an embellishment slot, use them.

[@ChinnuWoW]

@@MarkElf2204 Why should we have to do that when Bliz can so easily make it unnecessary?

[@jgro9]

@@ChinnuWoW agreed. ive spent quite a bit of gold this tier on flavor pockets and...well, thats dumb.

[@voodoo1069]

Personally think going on a legendary journey to acquire it can still allow it to feel legendary. That is why I personally enjoyed the two staffs, axe, and daggers. I didn't play legion because warlords ruined the game for me even know I heard the ending was good so I don't know if that system was good or not. Personally didn't enjoy stuff like Thunderfury. Then again I mained a warrior in vanilla and I didn't get my Garr binding until end of uld start of trial so that was like 5+ years of killing a single boss almost every week but that did lead to my stories of tanking both of those raids with it on even know it was level 60. Ring and cloak were not legendary even know the expansion long progression was fairly epic.

[@TheRabidSniper]

Yeah. If Naguura's arg is that the acquisition quests often feel like relief rather than "holy shit, this is awesome!", how does *finally* getting a low-chance drop on, say, your 500th kill feel any more legendary than a long quest chain? It will feel just as much like relief, that the grind is finally over.

[@snowballs2023]

Maybe add weekly mythic plus affixes into mythic raid.

[@domenicofunaro1706]

There is nothing wrong with the fact that you know when you get your legendary item, it feels legendary cause it's "hard to get" in the sense that for example you need to kill 20 mythic bosses to get it and you need to funnel the loot for the legendary to 1 guy chosen by the guild, there is nothing wrong with that, infact is the best way, cause the total randomness of it is incredibly silly and the fact that to get it you need to do very easy content and be just be lucky is terrible. Also fot he balance thing you are seeing it the wrong way. you should ask yourself "is it correct that 2h strenght users are undertuned to count for the legendary?" and the answear is no, it's not fair. cause a lot of people cleared the raid and pushed m+ till now without it, playing a clearly undertuned class for no reason and war and dk are still pretty bad, even with the legendary, with the exeption of ret that was buffed twice.

[@SuperHoggs]

Naguura: “There’s no value in marketing the game to players who already play the game” Also Naguura: “RWF is a huge marketing tool, just look how many people watch it” 💀

[@rubenloza1920]

Class buffs need to be an everyone has it or no one has it (have some cross over). If people dont want to bring a spec because its bad, but because of a buff, that is just bad class design and needs to be figure out on that side of things. This ultimately is the case in a few situations in my opinion. Class stacking is also a pretty high end deal, probably any guild out of the top 50-100 cant even manage it because honestly you don't need to unless you are bleeding edge progressing. Gear will get it done if you are progressing at what I will call a 'human' pace. So using class buffs to create diversity is such a high end fringe thing that it should be base game design. Addons, they arent the core of any problem. Yes, a few are maybe a bit out of control and yes, some things they do probably should be in the game naturally but in the end if private people are wiling to do that work why wouldn't Blizzard just let it happen. In the past when it you had to set all these things up yourself it was an insane gatekeep. But how its pretty much, oh you play druid.. ccp these things and bam there it is. If you are advanced you can edit away if you arent then that ccp works just fine in like almost all cases.

[@countmephriel]

The three emerald dragons were hard world bosses imo.

[@slugfest513]

true, they are almost at a first heroic raid boss level, def harder than most normal raid bosses

[@MorRochben]

I dont think the power or ease of acquisition will change how legendary an item feels. What made shadowmourne and vanilla legendaries actually feel legendary is there was an actual story in game about it not just go do the world event 20 times and kill some rares followed by killing some no name mobs in a previous raid like the Fyrak axe. Shadowmourne you where reforging the shards of godamn Frostmourne, one of the most well known weapons in the world (and I don't mean the world of warcraft). Legendaries will only feel legendary if there is a legend to be told and since we're creating new lore every expansion now with barely anything being established before, I don't we'll get another legendary item that actually feels legendary.

[@Imorteus]

everyone agrees they make the game too hard. probably for a bigger rwf. and yes ofcourse that brings viewers, but personally i think making the game more fun for more people aka making it hard but not break good players spirits. is way healthier and brings around the same or maybe more people to the game than rwf twitch viewers

[@TheAlienwhisperer]

Where I can buy the jumper? :)

[@ClarixTV]

I actually like your take on separating mythic into two difficulties, they can have just boss fights no trash on the ultimate version and it could drop the equivalent of FF ultimate weapons / mogs, that’d be sick

[@ThisIsY0SE]

We already have 4 raid difficulties... adding another one doesn't make any sense.

[@ClarixTV]

@@ThisIsY0SE and? If the rewards for this difficulty were just cosmetic it’d have no effect on the other difficulties

[@ThisIsY0SE]

@@ClarixTV I don't think that more bloat is going to solve the problem. Each tier already has their own transmog, and there are additional mounts / rewards unlocked for higher difficulties. The Fyraak skin for AOTC, and the Azur'elos skin for CE...

[@ClarixTV]

@@ThisIsY0SE I think you’re forgetting the fact that all of the transmogs nowadays from each difficulty are just recolors of each other INCLUDING standard pvp and it’s elite set, it is not that much effort to create new weapon models for each weapon type.. don’t let them get away with the bare minimum my man, it’s been this way for too many expansions lol

[@ThisIsY0SE]

@@ClarixTV I honestly don't mind this at all, the only reason why I did PvP in S1 & S3 of DF was for the elite mogs, and it's the only reason why I go back to farm the raids. Also, as I said there are unique drops from higher difficulties. TBH Fyr'alath should be a 100% drop on Mythic Fyraak aswell, idk why they brought back lottery legendaries. You can call it the bare minimum, but honestly that's just your opinion, the art and design teams do a shit load every single season, and if this is a way for them to take a bit of their load off then so be it.

[@arcadialive4265]

I feel like we've been fighting the same bosses since SoD. Unique fun raids for me were BoD, Castle, and ToS.

[@paullowe8437]

legion was just peak raiding across the damn board! absolutely loved night hold, tomb of sargeras and antorus! everything since then for me outside of castle nathria has been pretty damn mediocre

[@badass6300]

@@paullowe8437 I disagree, BFA had Battle For Dazar'Alor, Crucible of Storms and Eternal Palace all of which were top notch and Nyalotha was great too, even though it was a lot less unique. Shadowlands has SoD and Castle Nathria as awesome raids. SotLO was just made to torture us...

[@paullowe8437]

@badass6300 I hated bfa more then anything on the planet comming from legion it was just watered down trash. In legion we didn't loose a single person to attrition. The same peoppe the whole way. Bfa was so bad the entire guild was disbanded before we cleared mythic. I did hear good things about siege though just personally never raided them

[@arcadialive4265]

@@paullowe8437 yeah but Battle was one of the best raids in the last 3 expansions. I feel like it made the whole expansion worth it. That and PVP before the azerite neck powers. Even though the neck powers helped PVE, they made PVP soo lame.

[@badass6300]

@@arcadialive4265 IMO PVP was bad in Legion and BFA and I barely bothered so I can't say much. I haven't mythic raided since Legion and I don't do combined M+ keys either, so I had 0 problems with the necklace, my necklace was always behind, and I still was middle of the damage meter no problem, without bis either. Clearing Heroic and +10-15 no problem in BFA that's why I was never bothered by the systems.

[@chrisjones658]

Every single one of Naguura's counterpoints to the forum posts-including her mental block about why buffs have been used in MMOs for over two decades-can be instantly nullified by simply making the game easier. As for the point that the Race to World First (RWF) attracts a lot of attention, Retail loses in viewership 355 days a year in comparison to Classic. OTK also showcased this in extreme when they garnered more viewership with their dueling tournaments for multiple days, and hours on end. Should Retail, therefore, become more like Classic? Yes, I am taking her (and other RWF defenders') point to somewhat of an extreme, but I hope this illustrates how effortlessly this metric can be flipped. Ignoring how inadequate Twitch viewership is for gauging popularity (especially in an MMO), that viewership (RWF) is present for about two hours on the very last day (sometimes less). Then, it plummets dramatically. Sure, people who play WoW and past players tune in to see who wins... (important note here: nobody truly cares about the winner-a sentiment Liquid and Echo actively try to amplify by constantly lamenting any fans' banter) ...but the data we have does not support the notion that the RWF significantly increases actual player participation. For one, the RWF has grown substantially since BFA, while the mythic player base has shrunk-a lot. The reason for this decline is pretty obvious. To be fair, the game has been negatively received for three expansions in a row, which cannot be ignored. But with mythic raiding, to deny the negative impact of tuning it (and yes I know the 1st half is normally fairly straight forward with any coordination and a week or twos vault rewards) for two guilds-so far removed from everyone else-and the fact that every raid has three to four bosses that end up heavily nerfed is, at best, delusional. For a WR400 guild, mythic raiding is a form of mental torture; you're waiting (in some cases actively praying) for the second or third nerf to hit the hard bosses so you can finally help your worst player(s) cross the finish line. The game doesn't have to be like this. If SotFO had launched as it was at the end of tier 3, most guilds would still have taken two to three months to clear it. This is equally true for every other raid. Even Emerald Nightmare took months to clear for everyone except the top top guilds. Hall of Fame guilds, let alone two guilds who play WoW professionally, shouldn't set the standard for any boss's design. I would say even suggesting it is horrifying and I would not be surprised if it stops the second someone at Microsoft in a high enough position puts 2 and 2 together that this is happening. And if their eventual plan is to bring WoW to console (game pass value stonks ^^^) the game is going to have to get easier anyway, so if you agree with this mild tinfoil prediction, it's inevitable that the UI, addon-policy, and difficulty are going to get shaken up at some point anyway.

[@ThrallsHammer]

This is such a good comment. Shame it will drown in the void. You are completely correct though. The second Microsoft hires some Mckinsey consulting ghoul to look at the work distribution at Blizzard, the consultant will be like ´´uhm, wait, why are you putting this many resources into something that no one plays?´´ The RWF is living on borrowed time.

[@sovereign1911]

thats so untrue. her arguments are very valid and adding / changing things doesnt make it easier as u might think.

[@malthus0016]

good takes

[@jgro9]

RFW is just a money grab these days. the top 2 guilds throw money at it for an advantage. most guilds dont have those types of resources. is it a fair race? no. why would anyone want to compete, then?

[@ammertos1517]

Who cares if RWF loses marketing value? we are taking about 40 players here...

[@JeffersonSMachado]

Just start watching and 2 problems i have so far (as in the post naguura is reading): 1) trying to create a narrative to justify your point of view like "the success of vanilla is based on this". This kind of statment if usually wrong but mostly impossible to verify, so you can put anything that does not sound super crazy and create a perfect explanation for whatever argument you are building here. 2) "back then, content was harder"... this is just flat wrong: NO IT WAS NOT and it has been proven over and over again that we, as players, are just better in playing games. That could even be applied to chest where there is a community discussion around changing chest rules so you can skip the stupid beginning that adds no value to the game whatsoever.

[@PierreHeinleinWoW]

no its world of warcraft... the feeling to have the need playing the game all the time was the feeling which made this game big. an MMORPG was about have the maximum player base on a server so everybody can connect and interact with each other. kontent helps of course... forced or not forced, just try balance it so not 5h is needed a day but at least 30-1h. And btw. for the PVP community, just delete the Solo shuffle function, and we get more interaction within players again which is more fun - long term at least :).

[@Sykretts]

"Is it bad people aren't playing the game and the participation numbers across the season are lower than ever?" A question I would not have expected to ever hear. Jesus. How out of touch are all these streamers

[@TheAlienwhisperer]

Make legendaries really low drop, and with standard stats, but super cool visual effects and maybe some nice utilities on use. Issue solved.

[@Danishdrums]

Ive been saying this for years. Legendaries should come with utility abilities, instead of power boosts etc. Stuff like double jump, movement speed, increased flying speed or similar etc.

[@Furtivexx]

I like the authors post, thanks for covering it but it seems you strongly disagreed with most of his points. A lot of time was spent discussing RWF, and I get it’s important to you and Blizzard for a financial incentive but I doubt many new potential players are watching it at all. It’s like bringing your girlfriend to the NBA finals and she’s just on her phone the whole time. I’d be surprised if even 5% of the audience was someone who watched and then subscribed to the game. If they release these stats, even better. But I honestly think the whole RWF is ruining mythic difficulty bc Blizzard wants to give these elite players a challenge meanwhile the rest of the mythic players are just waiting for inevitable nerfs. The mythic lockout being removed would be substantial and I think would greatly at least get some more feet in the door for players who want to try mythic. I’m also in this demographic of players that just do heroic raid for gear but when mythic raid is 6x harder, it doesn’t make much spend hours / days / weeks wiping on a boss like Tindral for 450+ pulls when I don’t enjoy that. Mythic raiding doesn’t need to be a joke, but it shouldn’t require this much coordination, macros, spreadsheets mapping out your cds, custom maps, for the average player to complete.

[@mewre2062]

they are losing money catering to 2 guilds

[@Dedwick]

I disagree with the idea that the RWF is actually that impactful in making people play WoW. Viewership does not necessarily translate into players. If there were some sort of studied or verified link between the RWF and a surge in new or returning players then I would concede that point. For example Dota 2 has had some of the most watched and highest paid Esports tournaments in history but that game is constantly struggling to bring in new players due to the difficulty. I find it hard to believe personally there are very many people who watch the RWF and then seriously think "I could do that." This is especially because WoW's top end RWF raiding guild's exclusivity is so intense. At least in other competitive games there's an idea of being able to climb to stardom through ranked ladder. WoW certainly gives off, you need to know a guy who knows a guy vibes to be able to participate at the highest of levels.

[@Morogwen]

every video i see of naguura shes eating an apple does she have a fear of doctors

[@Vizelvius]

I wholeheartedly disagree with Naguura's argument that legendaries in Legion felt legendary because there was uncertainty in whether you would get them or not. Because if this were the case, then any regular old Very Rare item probably feels legendary as well, and that doesn't really make sense because there isn't anything special about the new powerful trinket for a given season. I think part of what makes people feel like something is legendary IS its acquisition, but an uncertain or rare drop rate doesn't fulfil that for me. Legends (the storytelling device) have historically become them because there was a lack of accurate information surrounding the legend, which allowed for mythology to be built up. Shadowmourne and Tarecgosa feel legendary because there was mythology built up around them. Sylvanas' bow, while it doesn't have its own mythology, probably feels legendary because it was wielded by a figure who is legendary. The person wielding it has its own mythology which lends to the mythological status of whatever they equip. Doomhammer wasn't technically a legendary, but is functionally the same as Sylvanas' bow in that it feels legendary because of the lore and mythology surrounding its use. And I guarantee that Enhancement Shaman players felt like Doomhammer was way more legendary than whatever was the Best in Slot 'legendary' item that players equipped in Legion, whether or not it was hard to acquire. As a consequence, one of the reasons why I personally believe the MoP legendary cloak and the WoD legendary ring *feel* more legendary is because we, the player, who perform legendary feats of strength with them equipped, pass on that status to the rings. Through campaign questlines we empower them to the point that their strength is our strength and vice versa. And that makes not only these items legendary, but us as well. If Frostmourne ever became a lootable item, it would be considered legendary whether or not it had an orange on its icon, purely because of the lore surrounding it and the mythology of Arthas. The mythology makes them feel important, powerful. And it helps that there are cool cutscenes that display their use cases too. One concession I will make: back in the day, when you didn't have collective knowledge through websites like Wowhead, where people could only speculate without many guarantees of certainty, it probably DID feel legendary when something dropped that not many people had. It probably added to the legendary status or mythology of a player if they walked around in full Naxxramas gear or whatever was the pinnacle of the day (I don't know, I didn't play back then). These days we are spoilt for knowledge, and knowing exactly how to make something or how to acquire an item almost certainly dispels the mythology surrounding the items. Not because the items are difficult (or random) to acquire, but because there would have been a certain awe from players who created their own narratives (i.e. mythology) about how items were obtained that players no longer experience. This is actually summarised slightly by Naguura stating there is a "wtf" moment for players if a legendary drops. But that "wtf" moment doesn't exist anymore, and I think collective knowledge has contributed to that. I think the obsession with "uncertain rare drop acquisition" is a form of nostalgia that ultimately doesn't make for a better gaming experience and almost certainly doesn't contribute to making things feel like they are legendary. The Evoker legendary actually feels somewhat legendary. Or it DID, for a time. Not because it's super powerful, because in truth it's actually not super insane. But there was mythology building up for WEEKS over how to acquire it and what its lore implications were. Of course, power *helps* but it's ultimately unnecessary. Doomhammer, after all, is only as powerful as the person who wields it. As a sidenote: Diablo has legendary items. Many of them are not difficult to acquire, and most of them you wouldn't even remember because there's zero or minimal lore to make them feel legendary. At the end of the day, any game can slap on an orange box and say "this is a legendary item." God knows, publishers already do that for in-game "legendary purchases" for monetisation. But that box, nor its random acquisition, make anything feel legendary anymore. Because there's no story attached to it.

[@Vizelvius]

Addendum: I also think people's apathy towards the concept of legendaries nowadays is because Blizzard have ultimately failed with narrativisation for a long time. They're changing it now, but for several expansions in a row they would prop up a villain only for us to kill it in that patch or the next patch. Dragonflight is an excellent example of this. Raszageth, Sarkareth and Fyrakk were all defeated in their introductory patch or the following patch. Not only does this not give Blizzard any time to let the player form an emotional or nostalgic bond to the character, but it leaves very little room for them to start mythologising them. And therefore their equipped items don't feel particularly legendary compared to how other items might feel. Hopefully they remedy this issue because I would love for players to experience what it's like to finally kill an enemy they've wanted to kill for years and years again.

[@Einarr_Norge]

nobody can read that bud

[@Vizelvius]

@@Einarr_Norge why not? It's got punctuation, paragraphing, etc.

[@Einarr_Norge]

@@Vizelvius it's beautifully written don't get me wrong, it's just 2 much for KZbin

[@Vizelvius]

@@Einarr_Norge Is it? Like you physically can't read parts of it because YT won't let you or it's just too long for your preference?

[@anthonyvelez8429]

Coming from a ffxiv lover and player for 8 years and being on and off wow since wrath I think ultimates would be great cause the craziest stuff happens and the hype would be unreal, like look at TOP (The Omega Protocol) ultimate raid and watch the mechanic Hello World, that is wild and was based on the original raid that was also insane to solve, it took teams multiple days upon days to figure it out on top of dps checks but super hype, it would be cool to have it separate like an ultimate in wow

[@natev580]

I hate to say it, but RWF doesn't mean shit. Most of the hundreds of thousands of people watching it play wow. Or have played wow and no longer have interest in playing it anymore, but still enjoy watching it. I know I speak for a huge portion of the player base when I say that I don't watch RWF content at all. And if I were to quit playing wow, I'd care EVEN LESS about what those sweaty tryhards are doing. It's not an effective marketing tool because it's not bringing new players into the game. And frankly most players are getting really sick of the game being strictly tuned for the top 2 guilds. If Liquid and Echo are that good, let them burn through the raid in a day and be done with it. At least that way the raid would be tuned to be completed in 4-6 weeks for everyone else.

[@GouacheGaming]

People disagreeing with advertising having value are dumb and just like to argue for the sake of arguing. Every time race to world first happens all my friends come back to wow after taking a break including myself. Just because some people dont care doesnt mean it doesnt work. I dont care about dog food advertisements but that doesnt mean someone else wont care. As long as its making some people come back to the game its working and in this case it makes ALOT of players return to the game. Just like how at the start of a new season in League everyone comes back to play the new ranked season. It's all about hyping up the potential to be the very best, that can be a drive for many competitive players to come back to the game and push to see if they can also reach the very top.

[@Jimbo5900]

this guy exposed himself as an idiot when with the 10% damage increase in legendaries comment

[@thezerb]

Legendaries stopped feeling legendary after Cata. The MoP and Wod legos were semi-ignorable, the legiondaries were a horror show in 7.0 because they were necessary but total RNG causinf many high end players to milti-reroll, BFA and SL legos were just as required but at least safe farmable. The DF Legos would have worked in the far past, but not in the seasonal, competitive game WoW has become for many, becuse not having it excludes some pleyers from being competitive, be it through actual power or just player perception. IMO Legendaries in DF are just even rarer rare epics that are just are essentially powerful but also come with a massive gold sink that was actually too much for some to bear, I personally know evokers that couldn´t afford to complete their S2 Lego until the middle of S3 or are even still working on it... If you were already frustrated about never getting an OCE trinket, imagine having to pay a quarter of a million gold when it finally drops.. ;)

[@Gowu26]

The beauty of Wow is that people can have their takes, even stupid ones 🙂

[@ryanzz1357]

The point about ICC is exactly the right solution

[@dant7677]

I think that's an interesting point, about the power of tier set bonuses. Gearing decisions would be a lot more engaging if we weren't obligated to choose a tier set every time. What if the itemization were designed so the tier bonus "claimed" a few points of item level?

[@big123lak]

I think the problem with taking breaks from wow is the game makes you not want to come back next season... to do the same thing you did last time you quit

[@iragibson560]

I love the RWF. I get the most hype for wow during that time. And after I definitely fall off the game.

[@Chrisgib90]

Congrats you're one of 5 people that actually care about it, compared to over a million WoW players that couldn't care less about the sweaties & RWF. WoW needs to be designed for everyone to enjoy, not a group of 20-40 people that want to no life try hard for a week or two every couple months

[@iragibson560]

@@Chrisgib90oof. What a bad take. The conversation was about how the RWF is good for the game, and a good marketing strategy. Has nothing to do with other players.

[@maxime7816]

I strongly disagree with 99% of ur analysis. The only one i 100% agree with you is : try to make a game for so many different type of player is a huge mistake, because all ur activities will feel bad for a lot players. As a PVE player with a high potential playtime, i can't stay in a patch more than 1 to 2 month, because it's balance for casual players. Gear acquisition never been so fast, it's boring as fuck. This expansion was the most casual friendly and "hardcore" unfriendly i played. I also think that class set and crafting gear is boring for the same reason : it just take slots of ur gear that are necessary to be optimized and easily accessible

[@eXpr3s]

The problem with current mythic raid is its become so complete that you need multiple addons and multiple weakauras that tells you what to do when to do it how to do it why you do it if you do it if you dont do it you have to turn on or of graphics setings to do it, feels more like a chore then anything now, and its not fun, raids where if one person does anything just one thing you wipe, oneshot Always wipe mechanics is not good, its lazy mechanics, Bosses where 3-4 oneshot wipe mechanics overlap is not fun. M+ is more fun then raid, it goes faster and its in out fast fun, raid now unless your a basicly 1% guild with peak perfektion players you wont kill it, when a boss requires 400+ wipes and yes a little bit of luck to kill, is not fun

[@MarkElf2204]

You _really_ don't need any WAs for this raid at all. They help a lot but by no means needed. They just provide information that you can see with your eyeballs and that saves the RL from frying their brain and distributes that info to everyone. 7/9M btw.

[@memorydumped]

There needs to be a currency only obtainable by taking people who haven't completed it before.

[@BluePachyderm105]

Not everyone is interested in taking months off from the game - some of us play this game routinely because we enjoy it. I don't jump from game to game to game.

[@bneva123]

Why is it a problem that a class is overpowered with a legendary? That's how it SHOULD be, and it's only for 1 tier anyway because legendaries are replaced by the following tier by like a normal item. It's crazy people are so against someone being OP because of an item, but are fine with blizzard balancing where it's the same 3 classes being OP every single tier.

[@mewre2062]

blizzard just thinks anyone not in the rwf are fucking derps or something.

[@mewre2062]

its 1 week of anyone caring, how is that a good marketing

[@mewre2062]

1 week that last tho. its a terrible marketing tool.

[@Astrox326]

It’s not the game it’s the players 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@saucythighs]

It's a two-way street between players and devs... but usually the players don't admit their side.

[@Chunks_YT]

based

[@Aldoopiola]

Race to world first has literally ZERO value to the most important demografic in the game, the actual players, and i dont know a single person that knows a single person that has started playing this game recently , even less for the meaningless race to world first, i understand that naguura wanna save her work casting it, but it has zero value to everyone else besides people actually getting money for it.

[@mewre2062]

if they nerf shit after world first is done. they are doing it wrong

[@ChinnuWoW]

Raiding hasn't had any real innovation for a long time. It's always the same kinds of mechanics. Ion and the entire dev team need to be replaced.

[@Demandred1971]

Mythic+ pretty much saved WoW from dying and was (and still is) a fantastic way to gear up. It's a brilliant idea but sadly it's also meant that Raiding has become "side content" that only people looking to challenge themselves have any interest in. As a consequence players find themselves asking what's the point of raiding Heroic when they can out gear it by spamming dungeons which leads to total disinterest in the raid. My guild now raids to just finish Heroic. There is no need to farm Heroic anymore so we stop once we get curve. So when it comes to Mythic raiding, only those looking for an extremely difficult challenge are willing to put in the time and effort required but which inevitably leads to burn out which means less people raiding Mythic. It's a vicious cycle which Blizz needs to put an end to.

[@badass6300]

IMO the whole structure needs to change. Here is how I'd make it. First of all there would be less dungeon difficulties and less ilvls in total. Second I'd say Normal Raid's difficulty should be between where LFR and where Normal is right now. Then Heroic would be either as hard as Normal is right now or between where Normal is now and Heroic is now, or completely removed. Mythic doesn't need to change. Also M+ should be brought back to +10 for single keys. LFR can go away or be turned into a non-auto grouping difficulty. I also think they should scale older raids starting from Cata to Normal(or just before Normal) raid difficulty ilvl and tuning, they are throwing away decades of content. For older than Cata raids, they should only scale the iconic raids, since they were a lot easier. This way every new tier, all the old content is viable and you have a lot of choice. How they handle sets and set bonuses is up to them. They are already using older dungeons in M+, but they should scale older dungeons to M0 as well. I also think difficulties above Normal Raid shouldn't give higher ilvl gear, instead they should give exclusive toys, pets, mounts, better looking gear, exclusive achievements, etc, etc. Here is how I'd structure the ilvls assuming Normal Dungeons start at ilvl 100: Normal Dungeons: ilvl 100 Mythic0: ilvl 115 Normal Raid: ilvl 130 Heroic Raid: ilvl 130 + 1 guaranteed gem socket per gear + exclusive toys, pets, mounts, better looking gear than Normal, exclusive achievements Mythic Raid: ilvl 130 + 2 guaranteed gem socket per gear + exclusive toys, pets, mounts, better looking gear than Heroic, exclusive achievements M+ would be from ilvl 115 to ilvl 130 and then start giving ilvl 130 with gem slots. Every tier you add 15-20ilvls on top of the previous tier, add a new Dungeon Tier of 1 mega dungeon + 2 regular dungeons. I'm all for multiple raids per tier, if anything I prefer it this way. There should be an upgrade system for previous raid tier items so that you don't have to farm the same item multiple times. I absolutely enjoyed the progressive difficulty that made raids easier because you were gearing up like it was up to Cataclysm, instead of relying on 4 different difficulties and bosses tuned the way they are. Shadowlands had the same idea with Castle Nathria in the beginning as well.

[@AR-jf1fv]

The problem is also that HC is too easy and Mythic too hard for some people

[@badass6300]

@@AR-jf1fv That's because since mid-legion Heroic has been Normal tuned for 13-15ilvls higher with UP TO 1 extra mechanic and 1 extra mechanic effect per boss for 90% of the bosses. There were many bosses that were literally the same as Normal, just tuned for higher ilvl and maybe a bit tighter, but that was it. In Dragonflight and some of shadowlands they kinda did a better job of differentiating Normal and Heroic, but they were still very close. Heroic essentially became padding between Normal and Mythic. IMO Normal should become a modern version of 10 Man Normal from WotLK or MoP's flex(without auto-grouping). A difficulty that is entirely PUGable, but is engaging and has a decent challenge. Heroic should be the Guild difficulty, where you need to get in with a guild and coordinate very well and communicate, and know the mechanics super well. Mythic should be torture for the hardcore, sweaty people. I'd say that heroic is relatively easy for me and my guild too, if we can do Normal, we can for sure do Heroic, and often time we 1-3 shot all but the last 1-2 bosses on Heroic, once we have farmed Normal, I think we one shot Heroic Nyalotha and VotI. But I like how hard Heroic is right now, I don't want it to be any harder. There is a reason why all guides are Normal and Heroic in the same video(while LFR and Mythic are separate from them), they are pretty much the same difficulty.

[@aleksvi8930]

sry normal and heroic are allrdy a joke and you want to make it easier.. makes no sense to me

[@badass6300]

@@aleksvi8930 Normal and Heroic are easy for people that play the game a lot. Normal isn't puggable(without being overgeared) for the vast majority of people. Heroic isn't done very much either. Think about the 85% of the people, not the bottom 10% or to 5%.

[@tommy4862]

@@badass6300 if you find it hard to pug, find a guild. Play with voice coms. Agree on some strategy. I mean there are thousands of guilds trying to recruit people all the time. And that's the best way how to play the raid.

[@erike9074]

As a caster who financially benefits from RWF, Naguura is insanely biased. RWF has a more negative impact on mythic raiding than anything else. “It’s a good marketing tool” lmao, as if that’s a good reason to nerf mythic bosses 8 times over the course of a season, which completely cheapens progression and player enjoyment. Mythic raiding doesn’t have 2 difficulties, it has SEVERAL.

[@ic3t3ap3ach]

true she probably gets paid. i would say most wow players never watched a twitch stream. rwf isnt that big as she thinks.

[@mewre2062]

blizzard made it clear, if ur not rwf guild, mythic isn't for u. because they nerf the only bosses not on ptr, after its done. literally how can any guild feel accomplished when the bosses are nerfed for what blizzard thinks nonrwf guilds can handle

[@TT-Litokranius]

I cannot believe that they make this game over and over again just for 0.0001 players. We are the idiots for paying subs… I

[@RavenskyAsh]

Sound is TERRIBLE! Can't understand a thing you say =/

[@user-ee7dy7bz2z]

I see your arguments are on the side of mythic raiders. But I'd like you to see this from the casuals point of view. I'd say at least 50% of people who watch world first streams will never touch mythic in their life. It's just because na hype or echo fans. Things like that. I'll never do mythic and that's fine but making I wouldn't tune a game around those guys at all. I'd make the game way more casual friendly and if the race is cleared in 2 days, then so be it !

[@Painchiller]

mythic raid is just not made for casuals. game is already rly casual friendly. there is no need to kill everything that is slighty challenging.

[@tommy4862]

What is the point of LFR, normal and heroic then? Why do you want to destroy the game for more skilled players because casuals need to clear mythic? I never got cutting edge in my life but I still enjoy heroic raid and the easier mythic bosses. There is something for everyone and nerfing mythic to be accessible for 50% people is not the solution. It will make it not a challenge and not fun for a lot of people who actually play this game a lot.

[@user-ee7dy7bz2z]

@tommy4862 so the game is for only people who play the game a lot? I'm sure people will always want harder content, but it's completely out of control now. Less and less people are raiding or even playing the game currently. So the way things are now clearly isn't work and needs to be changed. This is an mmo game. It's was never meant to be hardcore cutting edge difficult. We, the community, did that for ourselves! When it was just normal and heroic difficulties, you still had hardcore guilds and the raid get cleared as well. So there is no difference. In fact, I'd say making it MORE casual means you'll have more people raiding overall. Which is what you want, correct? =)

[@tommy4862]

@@user-ee7dy7bz2z no mate, can you read? The game is for EVERYONE. For hardcore players, there is a mythic raid. For skilled players who still touch grass sometimes there is heroic raid. For bad players there is normal raid. For new players there is LFR. What is wrong with this system? Why should be the majority of players able to complete the hardest available content? They have their own content made for them. Why would people quit raiding because they can't raid mythic? They can raid heroic. If you nerf mythic to heroic level you did absolutely nothing for casual players. They will do the same raide as they can do now. You just destroyed the raid for mythic raiders.

[@user-ee7dy7bz2z]

@tommy4862 I'm only 4, I can't read. But besides that point, the game was also fine back with TBC and Wrath. If anything, I'd assume that's why people also wanted the classic forms of those time periods because are BETTER than current content. You're still arguing for the top percent of players who do mythic which isn't a huge amount. Here's the example, make raids 40 man and let's go back to normal and heroic. Mythic raiders will burn through heroic just as easily as they do mythic and can bring say B or C tier players with them. Fun doesn't have to be JUST hardcore players. I'd argue the way things are now, the mythic raiding scene is dying with guilds falling left and right because it's so hardcore! You don't need wa or add ons for every boss fight. The more casual you make the fights, the easier more guilds can progress and see the fights to begin with. That I think is better for the overall game, not just mythic raiders

[@gulursbere9836]

Mythic raiding needs to go away

[@michaelb9683]

His entire post is thinly veiled attempt to improve his own personal experience and not the game for the majority of people.

[@cody5495]

I can't understand a single thing she's saying

[@davidsenter87]

Do you have ears?

[@konekopon2865]

I cant even understand your comment

[@mewre2062]

if it was good more ppl would watch it or care. nobody cares about rwf outside the 5 guilds that racing for it. honestly nobody watches fucking rwf streams outside that one week.

[@user-ee7dy7bz2z]

Increase raid size to 40! You can class stack sure, but you can bring Bob who's a feral or Steve who's a frost dk. You'd see more class diversity and not be held to the restrictions of raid comps. People can play what ever they want and have FUN ! The whole point of video games

[@angeloskarkoulias1175]

Explain me why in classic tbc and wotlk people were playing all the time and having fun and now the play 2 months and quit? Wow is like a moba nowadays seasons ,meta etc

[@Gravesmasher23]

the delusion is strong here. Is RFW good for marketing? Yes for the current wow players who like the content, but for casual joe its not. If wow should be great again, blizzard should stop caring about Esport. Remove mythic. Go LFR- N-H . Would the top guilds clear it on day 1? Yes 100%, but WHO CAREs, 99% would have more fun in the game.

[@ic3t3ap3ach]

mythic raiding is a joke. it takes them months to fill this usless website until cross realm 😂. they do this to advertise the game for 1 month get some twitch viewers make it as hard as possible. people watch it because of drops. dead content

[@markwentzell]

gg for completely missing the point, some hot chick healer getting carried in mythic having zero clues as to the real issues with mythic raiding...

[@snowballs2023]

She a balance boomkin not a healer.