Instagram lost it's $#!+ over a rather simple concept of lat mechanics. Here is a visual to help.

Last week, there was what can only very loosely be called a debate about lat training, particularly in greater degrees of shoulder flexion. Paul Carter (‪@LiftRunBang‬ and Dr Mike Israetel (@Drmikeisreatel) and Lyle McDonald ‪@lylemcdonaldisright‬ all chimed in on the post. Lyle specifically did a review of the papers that were referenced in a article by Chris Beardsley which may have been the source for the initial discussion.
All that being said, I decided to make this video as a visual aid for anyone that would find it useful.
My options on the matter are as follows.
I don't think DB pullovers are a great lat exercise, for reasons mentioned here and many other. That being said if you like them, doing them on a decline would make them less poor.
If I wanted to get stretch mediated hypertrophy I would use a varying degrees of flexion and adduction (in front of the body) rather than pure flexion, and this provides both a stretch for the lats, as well as good mechanics, and has tested very well in the lab and the gym for us so far.
I would prefer cable pullovers over the machine because it allows the humerus to translate (protract and retract etc) as well as shoulder extension, where the machine restrict the motion to almost pure extension.
That being said, I would use more variations of not quite vertical, horizontal, and in between pulldowns/rows over pullovers because I find the motions better mechanically, and from a resistance perspective, as well as the ease of technique and applied effort when using the short lever of just the upper arm.
That doesn't mean pullovers are zero lats, but I don't really program them when I can do more variations of pulldowns and rows.
There can never be a true zero moment arm for the lats on the shoulder extension, but the key to a good hypertrophy exercise is that it biases the tissue well for optimal and targeted stimulus, which means the exercise should match the motion and the mechanics of the muscle fairly well in comparison to others. The close the better in most cases.
I really don't think any of the parties handled this topic very well. I contributed maybe 3 objective statements, but they were lost in a sea of insults, accusations, and for some reason a lot of personal things got dragged into it. Overall a bit embarrassed that people are associating me with the debacle, as the initial comment I made was very objective and if anything overly polite. But that's boring right?
Ultimately the pullover, and the variations of such is a relatively complex exercise to look at biomechanically because so many things are happening with all the different muscles involved, and so there are a lot of nuances, and tons of considerations for mechanics, individual variations, and the relative position of the glenohumeral joint where the pullover motion is performed. However all that complexity doesn't cause much deviations from the basic principles demonstrated in these visuals. But anytime there is this much nuance involved, you have to be careful not to speak in absolutes because that creates the opportunity for irrelevant arguments for the sake of argument.
Link to Chris Beardsly's article
/ how-should-we-train-th...
Link to Pauls Post (actually had no idea I was tagged in this until I just went to copy it)
pCXZfF87rW...
Link to Mikes Post where the trash talking took place:
pCXjNMsaLh...
Link to Lyles Video Reviewing Chris's article in part and the two papers referenced.
• The Lats have NO LEVER...
I appreciate Lyle amending his statements about myself and N1. Much appreciated, #respect
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[@ThomaConjugate]

just gonna put something simple like this: my lats and back as a whole grow because of you and Paul Carter.

[@alxwojtowicz8455]

THIS COMMENT HAHA 👍👏

[@N1education]

This comment aged amazingly

[@ThomaConjugate]

@@N1education lol im gone

[@nomongosinthaworld]

what's the context here?

[@madmax685]

@@nomongosinthaworld they had a falling out they hate each other

[@gute9336]

Always grateful for the three of you, truly appreciate the information.

[@N1education]

You're welcome, glad it was helpful

[@nicolasklug2311]

Great vid Kas, always appreciate the content especially the visuals as I'm a very visual oriented person ! :)

[@jtyou967]

Learning more about anatomy and moment arms/leverages in PT school has made your content incredibly gratifying to learn. This is an awesome breakdown video

[@HeyIntegrity]

is ther a good source/book for this for non-pt wishing to learn.

[@yersongutierrez9410]

Great explanation, audio was good BTW, Wade was as useful as always. Thanks to you my back is getting bigger and bigger.

[@samozeleznaterapia3643]

I cannot express how great this video is. Kas, thank you so much. I've learned more from you than from anyone else.

[@notacrew69]

Great conversation about lats I've been following both you and Mike's tips for my training journey and immensely grateful to both. Would you be interested in doing a podcast with mike and have a discourse of sorts? Id love both of you to talk about it more ! Cheers

[@N1education]

I’m open to it, but my impression is Mike isn’t. At least not at this time.

[@btechzz]

always grateful! Thanks

[@pietromino1768]

Great explanation as usual. Thanks coach

[@N1education]

Glad you liked it!

[@cyclist5000]

This is great! The colored bands make it VERY easy to visualize and interpret!

[@zxsw85]

Very nice and actually educational

[@PR-Coaching]

Great explanation! Thanks 🙏

[@N1education]

Glad it was helpful!

[@facepullsscents]

1st! I try your lats pulldown technique for 2 weeks now and I like it. I prefer doing it with single arm with slightly heavy weight 6 - 8 reps.

[@N1education]

Glad you like it

[@HeyIntegrity]

You have a video on form?

[@jeffbunnell9961]

for good lat exercise selection... something like the lat pull-around I've seen you do in a video vs traditional pulldowns? I've been doing those for high-ish reps and lat prayers for lats, mainly due to a pec strain while benching I don't wanna go too heavy until it heals.

[@HeyIntegrity]

Does the posterior translation function of the lat put more stress on the posterior labrum of the shoulder. Wondering becasue have a previous posterior labrum tear and degenerative changes but want to train the lats as optimal as possible.

[@juansamudio1171]

Could the rib cage act as a fulcrum in a lay pull down to stabilize the trunk and provide attachment to other muscles?

[@Showdownxlm]

Great content. On the standing one arm pull down, would it be best to stand straight, or does leaning back/forward do something in terms of biomechanics? Right now my main queue is to go for the most stable position, as i feel the most important thing is to keep a stable upper body, to isolate the lat best with these

[@N1education]

check out the @coach_kassem instagram, tons a variations for stability depending on equipment etc. The important thing is the cables angle relative to the torso. So your positioning will depend on your height, setup, and cable station.

[@GVS]

THE AUDIO SUCKS! Just kidding, good explanation, much to think about.

[@Keranu]

Can't wait until Doug Brignole cries how this is all wrong, only lat pull-ins fully activate the lats. Then uses his dumb scale and nuts to prove it.

[@N1education]

Let's not insult the scale for user error.

[@shaydempsey9667]

Can someone link the post? I can’t find it online. Thanks

[@N1education]

I did in the description

[@Liquifireguitargeek]

Wade is a better piece of evidence than 95% of all peer reviewed research ;-)

[@Catabolicmuscle]

What about regular straight bar lat Pulldowns? I've heard this is a trash lat excersice? And should use cable?

[@N1education]

Cable is better than free weight pullovers, but also pulldowns and rows are better than pullovers. Doesn’t mean pullovers do nothing, but I wouldn’t choose them over a pulldown.

[@patmat3608]

The past iliac pulldown videos on your IG were around 120° or even higher, but here you’re saying it’s more effective to stretch the lats by bringing the arm across in the front, but keep it below 120°? Is that right?

[@N1education]

The amount of flexion is individual dependent, as well as adduction dependent. You simply can flex less the more your arm comes around. So there will be less flexion in a single arm pull around than a narrow grip pull down for example.

[@patmat3608]

Thank you. Understood, the exact position depends on each person and the exercise choice - pulldown or pullaround. In general, for shoulder width grip pulldown, do you no longer advocate going as high (to or past 120°) as you did previously to bias iliac fibers?

[@lulquan4526]

Whats the difference between illiac lat pull down and pull around ?

[@N1education]

Pull arounds come across the chest in the front. Pull downs do not. This means the pull around gets more stretch, but the pull down may get more shortening.

[@adamgould1427]

I don’t know why everybody just can’t be friends and get along

[@santhoshsandy4703]

you want to be friends with everyone bcz you're an idiot and you don't want people to call you out for that so if you make everybody your friends, they can't call you out right?😂 that's what already going on in this industry. what we need is more conflict & more callouts not friends.

[@adamgould1427]

@@santhoshsandy4703 wtf is wrong with you. I’m not here for conflict but for real wtf.

[@santhoshsandy4703]

Why do really want to get along huh? If someone has problem with your information, they will call you out and if you can demonstrate that you're right, The person who called you out will be the one who gonna be looking like a clown but if you can't stand up for your information then you're information is misinformation which should have to be called out anyway. You can't call someone out for their Pseudoscience if you've become friends with them. This is my point ✌🏻what's yours🤷🏻‍♂️

[@antonseoane9092]

@@santhoshsandy4703 the fact that you claim you can't call out somebody on their bullshit if they are your friend really reveals a lot about you

[@rahulramesh8002]

Mike is great but his fanboys are something else 😭

[@N1education]

I think that's true of most people's followings. That's why I actively ask my followers to behave themselves

[@gunheepark5979]

Dear Kassem, can you make a comment on the role of lattisimus dorsi muscle on shoulder adduction? Based on Chris Beardsly's article, lattisimus dorsi's major role as a prime mover happens only at shoulder adduction and shoulder extension, and teres major shows similar function. However, your descriptions on youtube and instagram kept saying that the conventional lat pull down, which is highly shoulder adduction based movement, does not involve lat muscle recruitment, but teres major and upper back muscles. Can you comment on this detail?

[@N1education]

It’s not that the lats are not involved, but less biased, and less ROM. I’ll cover this when address the pull-in type motions. For reference that is basically what you’d do to bias the Terra major though.

[@chasinggainz9772]

@@N1education Pls do the video on teres pull over too, I tried to do it the opposite way of lateral raise which is shoulder adduction in scapular plane but still feel slightly off.

[@gunheepark5979]

@@N1education Thanks for your comment! I am just wondering whether there exists adduction based movement which is biased to lat muscle over teres major/upper back.

[@N1education]

@@gunheepark5979 anything pure adduction, wide arms to in (pull-in or wide pulldown motion) is going to be less biased to the lats than something that is more extension based. When the arm is out to the side the delts and teres have equal or better leverage and alignment. As the arm comes towards the front of the body the leverage and alignment for the lats increases. That doesn’t mean the lats don’t work in a wide to understand pull motion, but proportionately less than more sagittal plane pulls. So they won’t be “optimal for lats”.

[@seban-jackedweeb5513]

I'm so confused though. What is producing significant force during a dead hang back to a pull up then if not the lats? Edit: I've learned, it's the lower chest. The chest performs adduction at that range one had a wide grip. This is why Kas always relies on getting more lengthed on the lats via the scapula and keeps a very narrow grip. If there's only extension, the lats have to produce force. If there's potential for adduction or extension, the brain chooses the chest, like in a wide grip.

[@nomongosinthaworld]

They will tell you it’s the pecs because the lats supposedly have “no leverage” lmao, it’s nonsense

[@seban-jackedweeb5513]

@@nomongosinthaworld I've learned since then. They're right. If you think about it, the pecs do adduction of the humerus, and the top portion is adduction similar to a dumbbell pullover for chest. In fact, the EMGs show that the lats aren't very active there, yet lower chest activity is sky high; however, this doesn't mean you can't train the lats in the lengthed position, it means you have a very close grip at high levels of shoulder flexion to train the lats and disadvantage the chest, because you'll be in an already adducted position.

[@nomongosinthaworld]

I don’t buy into it. Yes, the pecs obviously will get involved the higher the level of shoulder extension is but that obviously doesn’t mean the lats just lose all tension the instant that moment is hit, not to mention that this also depends on muscle insertions and therefore varies from person to person. The EMG data isn’t saying much in this case as it isn’t very responsive at longer muscle lengths to begin with. It is some pecs but not „no lats“, that conclusion is just backwards

[@nomongosinthaworld]

Also with the close grip statement you’re kind of arguing for the db pullover

[@seban-jackedweeb5513]

@@nomongosinthaworld well, it's mainly a very close grip that matters. This is done to have protraction in the dead hang position, which lengthes the lats more. Honestly, db pullover doesn't even train the lats fully lengthed, because the scaps are neither fully elevated nor protracted, which is how the lats are lengthed quite a lot. It's not just about having a close grip but also keep the humerus inwardly rotated or else it'll be humeral adduction more than extension and well, the humerus is externally rotated during db pullover. Lastly, who the heck are you talking to? I never said zero lats. I'm saying it's bad for lats, because the chest is just better for the movement. In fact, no one ever says, "Oh, my lats are burning and reached failure." No, people say, "Oh, a stretch on my lats." Idk why no notices a problem here. This clearly suggests this is not the best lat movement, because no one gets their lats to failure using it. I personally have only ever felt a slight stretch with arguably a greater stretch sensation on my tris and chest and only my tris and chest have EVER gone even close to failure using this exercise, and if you listen to even the proponents online for the exercise, they even say simply a pump and/or stretch, nothing more and often less.

[@peetos-chan2835]

Lol, I just love Dr Israetel

[@asdfkjhlk34]

Why are we assuming the axis of rotation is At the Glenohumeral joint and not the scapulothoracic joint

[@asdfkjhlk34]

Looks like the lats still have good leverage for numeral extension relative to the rib cage through downward scapula rotation in the rom of the dumbbell pullover

[@N1education]

That's a great pick-up, and only because that is the topic, but if you were to look at our analysis of the lats, the SCJ would be the primary axis the lats act on and the GH secondary.

[@juansamudio1171]

I don’t want to say Mike is wrong because I mean the exercise still works and when you’re an advance lifter it’ll be more common to change exercises more often than a beginner and in bodybuilding the smallest changes can make a good difference so he was probably just defending the exercise which is fine sure they’re better options but like you said it depends on preference

[@N1education]

I think defending an exercise is kind of a ridiculous thing to do. We can point out the logic behind an exercise the context and benefits of an exercise. However to make the assumption that an exercise is going to be good or bad without the context of who it’s for and the goal is a little out there. So I don’t understand why people get so upset and worked up about another persons opinion about an exercise, because they may have a completely different goal, body, or experience with the exercise. The same can be said for people that want to say an exercise is trash and no one should ever do it.

[@BodyOpt]

Kassem, can I re-clarify, are you saying the lats are already pulling near-parallel with the humerus at only 30 degrees above perpendicular (120 degrees of shoulder flexion)? If so, what do you think the injury or muscle strain risks would be when going through ranges above that? I have heard that the position of most stress on rotator cuff muscles is basically the hang position of a chin up/ pull up. Certainly agree that arm ACROSS front of body takes the lat to its lengthened position, have been stretching that way for decades. However I probably remain skeptical that exploring those angles under load is advantageous to hypertrophy, and might just be a poor return on the time invested. Eg you will have to reduce the load that you can use in a pure sagittal plane shoulder extension. Someone barrel chested like you (technical term there!) would surely be progressively introducing an internal rotation moment to the humerus the further it extends back, peaking by the time your elbow is down at your side. At least, I suspect a machine would be necessary to exploit that pathway very effectively. Definitely agree DB pullovers have a lot of serious drawbacks. Crappy exercise that I wouldn't recommend to anyone. Obviously great for expanding the rib cage though 🤣. Surprised that Dr Mike views them as effective...but lots of things are effective for mesomorphs on lots of drugs, frankly. More surprised that Mr Brignole doesn't know what a moment arm is, stunning revelation. Oh well. Appreciate your detailed and thoughtful output.

[@dualShockRK98]

Stretch mediated hypertrophy is pretty well documented I think at this point, so not sure why you think that stretching the lats under load would be advantageous because I think its exactly what you should want. Could you explain that more ?

[@harrison_caton]

Wondering if using chains on a pully system would be the best for lat pullovers. At the top weight would be minimal but enough to provide a stretch. At the bottom the resistant would climb.

[@joojotin]

Your and Pauls explanation of lat mechanics was one of the things to convince me that Doug brignole is absolutely wrong about this. You even feel the difference immediately, better feeling, pumps, doms for months every workout. I used to get very little doms unless I did high volume.

[@N1education]

Glad to hear you've been getting good results!

[@joebourgoin6554]

So which exercises did you start doing that got better results?

[@Therealw1]

So was Lyle right or not?

[@N1education]

about what in particular?

[@Therealw1]

@@N1education everything

[@kemsouexe174]

that's all make sense but in your explanation don't take in considerations gravity because when you do pull over gravity is not the same as when someone is standing

[@EricMySelf990]

There are those who argue over minutiae to prove how smart they are and those who argue over minutiae to prove how simply things are. Reject the former and embrace the latter. This is not about proving what exercises are worthless, etc. but about removing needless concerns. In the fitness industry, among the more science-oriented crowd, I've noticed two extremes with absolute statements on one end and endless debate over details on the other. If an expert's explanations make things seem ever more complicated, you probably need a new expert.

[@stephensimon7621]

i think you are missing a point, if the pull down is wide grip, directly overhead, you create a lever arm the the lower lats can pull in vertical plane. you are looking ate the close grip angled pulldown only.

[@x-man4710]

Please, can you active the automatic subtitles? Thanks