Navigating Church Bewilderment with Mary DeMuth

When corruption and scandal in the church is exposed, believers like author Mary DeMuth have made the difficult choice to exit their home congregation.
In this podcast, Mary shares how to navigate leaving a toxic church, as well as what to do in the face of bewilderment, grief, and righteous anger following betrayal and a loss of trust.
This program was also released as an audio podcast and transcript on June 18, 2024:
julieroys.com/podcast/navigat...
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[@helloharborhouse]

Even smaller churches can promote this toxic leadership culture.

[@randymlekush754]

I can't tell you how many times I've experienced this! I, too, was in the ministry when I was in my 20's. When I challenged the older male leadership of their abuse toward many staff, they ganged up on me to set me straight. I was only a 25 y.o. female, but I held my own. I quit right then. Can't go back from that. But I've seen it in almost every church I've attended over my 70 years on earth.

[@angelirohival6270]

I left my mega church, and the Lord graciously led me to a church that is closer to a New Testament church. They preach great messages and it’s very strong on evangelization and church planting. I didn’t grieve about leaving the mega church. I was very involved in ministry there, but I just felt it wasn’t the same. Throughout the time I finally found a church home, I stayed involved in a Bible study and got deeper in the Word of God. Clue: don’t idolize or worship the pastor of ANY church, big or small. They are men and the congregation is made up of people who can fail. Fix your eyes on Jesus.

[@lynnnelson4519]

Thank you for this interview. My husband and I were at a church for 23 years also and left it in December of 2023. We loved this church of about 200 people. I was so thankful for it and taught many classes during the time we were there (children’s church, Missionettes and women’s groups). The eventual change in the leadership, and the way it was handled, lead to us making the decision to leave. I miss so many people there…I miss the closeness to each family as well as many of leadership. I am still mourning what it used to be. I know there won’t be another church that will be the same and I’m asking the Lord to plant us where He wants us and to give us a love for a new group of believers. This is harder at 69 years old than it was 23 years ago.

[@Heidi-zu1nm]

The similarities around what my husband and I experienced at a much smaller local church In our area (after 16 years!) is frightening. Every time I think our experience was so ‘unique’ I hear others stories and I see how widespread and systemic the problem is. We’re still unraveling the false and abusive teachings and healing. Thankful for brave voices!

[@nmhaney]

“We had people we were serving.” Beautiful description of church volunteering- serving people, not an organization.

[@mistybedwell5962]

So grateful for this conversation in light of my own experience. Feels like coffee with good friends. I'm so sorry we have had to go through these things, and yet let's grow stronger.

[@ivanasimic2072]

Bravo Mary !!!! God bless you sister

[@Susan-zk7ne]

Its like an unexpected divorce.

[@thestraightroad305]

The church model Mary is describing sounds industrial. Very corporation like. ‘Replicatable in any context’ sounds the opposite of living and personal. I’ve asked the same question Julie asked: “is it even a church?” I moved to the DFW area three years ago and the Great American Evangelical dilemma seems sharply evident here. Because there is so much of it-not because it doesn’t exist in other places. Thankfully we found a living and humble fellowship where teaching has depth and service is welcomed. I value this conversation because I have been there. And dealt with the culture of silencing. This has been comforting because of my own struggling with the issue of talking through the pain of betrayal and deception. Thanks Mary and Julie.

[@andrearush6209]

We moved to DFW eight years ago and have experienced the same thing. There's a huge difference between church as Church and church as a business. It's so sad because it doesn't have to be that way.

[@thestraightroad305]

@@andrearush6209 Agreed!

[@Wanda4849]

In my 61 years as a Christian, I have been part of many different churches...small, large, and mega. I now believe that the mega church model may be the downfall of the church in America. It is so easy to be lost and remain lost in a body numbering in the thousands. Coming to be entertained by the music and celebrity "pastor" draws many who are there for the wrong reason. A congregation needs to have Biblical preaching because the power is in the Gospel. People need to know and be discipled and shepherded by an elder who is not so entrenced in protecting and supporting "the business" instead of helping his people in their journey with Christ. There is very little accountability because of the large numbers, but leadership thrives on those numbers to protect the brand. The person who preaches and teaches should be qualified by character and Biblical knowledge. Humility should be a strong asset. I really appreciate your podcast today. I have experienced many of the things you have talked about. My husband and became members of a church about 3 years ago, moderate in size. We recently wrote to the elders with a concern we have experienced for a long time. We waited because we felt it would be wrong to do so until we had been part of the congregation for an extended time. We had not discussed this with anyone else. The letter was very respectful and simply asked for an explanation. Sadly, we are still waiting. What does it say about our value to these men?

[@thestraightroad305]

“….the power is in the gospel.” That is the bottom line. Unfortunately the knowledge of the gospel is not found in many churches.

[@greglogan7706]

Entertained is exactly the right word - white American evangelicalism is all about entertaining themselves...

[@janewhitely964]

@@greglogan7706Not just white.

[@greglogan7706]

@@janewhitely964 I don't speak to any other community - I trust God to raise up those who do

[@sharonlain5830]

I’m 70. I love and respect good church communities. Christians are flawed but forgiven. In my opinion, some churches I’ve seen are similar to a fraternity or sorority. Influence is obtained by your status in the city you live in and how much money you donate. That’s just the reality of it. Seek God and stay close to Him. He will never leave you 🙏

[@mattleitner5194]

I could say so much but suffice it to say; great job Julie!

[@michaelhagerman7829]

So grateful for this podcast 🙏❤️

[@JL-fz5kn]

I am interested in Julie’s theological reasoning for leaving from a place of learning.

[@elizabethsheplermusic]

Their is definitely age-discrimination in churches!!!

[@SurvivorC]

This is like my 18 year marriage. The similarities of patterns match an emotionally abusive marriage (which churches are not good at handling) . We need to do more discipleship on Wolves In Sheep's clothing.

[@shannonsundby5725]

To listen to other people who have such a depth of understanding- I've cried through this entire conversation. The only place to express the grief of leaving the church that had been my family for almost 3 decades is in a comment section- silent, anonymous, unknown- the only safe place. Churches don't want to inherit people coming in with church hurt. No one seems to understand the difficulty and grief I'm going through. There are not an abundance of local churches within driving distance. If you walk into another local church and they find out you are not new to town but came from another local church- you are either treated with suspicion or avoided or people are curious to know the reason but then have zero capacity to understand. I don't think I'll ever have a church family again. When my former church changed- seeing success in numbers, professionalizing everything, turning to entertainment over sound teaching- you said the exact comment I said to leadership- that they cared more about people coming through the front door than all the people leaving out the backdoor. I too was told I couldn't serve anymore. I had been faithfully serving for 29 years. I spoke up about what I was seeing- and was told "those of us who had been a part of the church no longer mattered to the church". I was told I didn't have the best interest of the church. All because I thought teaching Scripture from the pulpit was important. Yes, I feel abandoned by the church. I have lost my mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, brothers and sisters in the church. Prior to coming to my former church I was raised Catholic. When I left the Catholic Church I lost that community. I walked away from closeness with my biological family. They believe I'm not saved, I walked away from The Faith. I was told I was going to hell. I was told I was now in a cult. Though I see my family, I know what it feels like to experience shunning. And it is only compounded that my Catholic family can not understand my leaving my former church that has been my life for all these years. I appreciate conversations like this podcast where I feel a little less crazy and a little less alone.

[@andrearush6209]

Shannon, I see this and am sorry for all you've experienced. In the past three years what I've come to understand is it's an experience that, until had, is not well understood. At first I tried to explain, at times desperately, but I've come to decision that I'm going to do what I'm called to and I'm not begging to be believed anymore. I just accepted that the One who understands it all is the One that matters. That said, it can be a relief if you run across a person who doesn't shy away or invalidate. I'm not giving up Jesus but it's made letting go of people ultimately much more freeing. Sad, but freeing. Even in the Church, our culture today is so disconnected. I've wrestled with the lies I was told about me and the situation by people with an agenda and come to this. I know who I am. I know what happened. I know what I'm responsible for and what not. I've made direct amends where needed even in their denial of theirs. No matter the lies told about me to invalidate and silence my voice, for selfish gain and the organization's protection by "leaders" with significant power and sway, I know I am not crazy. Shannon, neither are you. What you are feeling is very normal human response to the situation. Every thought, I'm contending for, to walk in the Truth: He did not give us a spirit of fear but of power, love, and a sound mind. He will show up. He does show up. He knows exactly what it is like to be treated poorly and with deceit. I'm studying Him to know when to be silent and when to speak up. Jesus dealt with all of this and He has been instrumental for me in knowing how to walk. Holding my hands open and palms up. At the end of my life, the only question that will matter is, "Did I follow Jesus, no matter the cost." May He leverage these stories in some way for good. You're not alone. Cheering you on, Shannon. Especially in the hard.

[@shannonsundby5725]

​@andrearush6209 Yes, I found out firsthand that I didn't understand until it happened to me. I have gotten to the place I can say I don't care anymore who believes me. I know the truth. I can see how God's using this experience but it's still hard. I have not stopped trusting Him, though I have been accused of this not having committed to another church and not being persuadeds to return to my former church. The grief seems to come in waves. I fought the battle for 3 years internally at the church. It has been a little over 1 year since we officially left and resigned membership. The waves hit again when I have to decide to attend or not attend funerals, weddings, baby and bridal showers and graduation open houses of people I love and have been doing life with for a really long time. The past two weeks I've entered my former church for a funeral, attended both a baby shower and grad open house. And still have the hardest, a bridal shower and wedding. I know these will be attended by those I have been most hurt. I know most of the leadership of the church will be there. How to navigate both wanting to be there and not knowing how to is difficult. I am still asked frequently to do things or host things for my former church. Each situation brings its own difficulty. I don't want to be connected but saying no to some people is taken as a personal rejection. Leaving a church of 3 decades and living minutes away is not an easy thing to do and brings more complications that I am still learning. I never expected to leave this church. And having friends who have also left choosing various churches and many who are still there brings so many layers of difficulty. Thank you for your response and encouragement. Even your response has brought a floodgates of tears.

[@andrearush6209]

@@shannonsundby5725 This is exceedingly difficult. I'm sorry you're going through it. I can identify with what you share. In my situation, the issue was the actions of five known people which displayed the culture of the organization directly and deceitfully. It's the aftermath of loss of everyone I held dear outside of that small circle because of the false narratives and sway told that has impacted me the most. I loved them. I loved the Church within the organization, and I really loved the community being harmed by the organization. I couldn't just be silent because people were being hurt and nobody was speaking up. Some seasons are survived not by weeks, days, or even minutes but by one thought and breath at a time. Praying for you now and will be, that you will be given wisdom and discernment to navigate the people and connections and that the Lord would occupy the voids and send the Comforter in very evident, poignant ways. He has bourne our griefs and carries our sorrows and it's by His stripes we are healed. Sending

[@shannonsundby5725]

​@@andrearush6209 Thank you for taking the time to share with me. I'm sorry that you have also been hurt. I've read your words many times now and I just want you to know you have been a blessing to me.

[@stefaniemetzler2661]

I'm grieving the loss of my church that I have been in for 26 years. It is imploding, and being taken over in a couple weeks. And people are being lied to and deceived. It breaks my heart to see older people and younger ones all being led down a false path of lies and secrecy. So few are strong enough to look for something different, so they just tolerate what is being fed to them.

[@tabook.b2248]

So many years at an AOG church and the last words spoken to me by the pastor floored me. I am now afraid to find another church.

[@sharonlain5830]

Keep praying and God will lead you to where He wants you. Stay in the Word and connect with Christian friends. Give that fear to God and overtime He will make you fearless. I’ve been there and bought the tshirt, as they say. There’s light at the end of the tunnel 🙏

[@michaelhagerman7829]

Amen 👏👏👏👏👏👏

[@maryalexis7328]

Thank you so much. Much wisdom shared. God help the church.

[@ivanasimic2072]

1. Justice for victims, 2. Justice for victims, 3. Justice for victims !! One by one, step by step - Justice and the Truth above all

[@ivanasimic2072]

Psalm 89:15

[@almarioantaran947]

❤ All believer in God Jesus Christ mighty in Heavenly father Holy holy Spirit ❤️ Love Peace Grace , miracle, Hallelujah Amen

[@herdigitallemonade3353]

Unfortunately, I can relate to this story...almost every part 😢

[@mattleitner5194]

It seems like Elder boards on independent churches should be individuals with a lot of spiritual insight. Then they could stop these rogue pastors. Otherwise, it seems like we would be better off with a denomination to oversee the churches. Does anyone else have any thoughts to share on this?

[@livehealthyfinishstrong]

This sounds like another Mars Hill/Mark Driscoll situation.

[@gailpurcell1649]

It seems the world's marketing-a-product model is being used rather than God's model. I think it stems from the kind of "gospel" that is being preached. Instead of the message that we are sinners in need of a loving Savior, it is, "Got problems? Get Jesus" like He is a product to sell.

[@1Whipperin]

Don't go to any building called church. The Church is not a building. Don't call anyone, Pastor. Pastor is not a Biblical title. Stick with what the Bible teaches. It's not that hard to avoid bad experiences if you follow the Lord and His Word.

[@Window4503]

Changing name doesn’t change function. You can call him whatever you want but that’s not going to change anyone’s actions. You can’t pin all abuse on the victims doing the wrong thing. Also, pretty sure “pastor” is biblical.

[@1Whipperin]

@@Window4503 No one in the Bible was called Pastor.

[@carolbarlow8896]

Ephesians 4:11.

[@StandUp777]

@@carolbarlow8896 this is where things go wrong. Further examination shows that the Greek word is "poimen", which means Shepherd. This gift is not translated Pastor. In the NT, it is talking about the gift of shepherding (literally think of a shepherd and what he/she does). It is not talking about the position or office of pastor. There was no such thing in the early century church. Constantine actually helped usher in what we now call the office of pastor, taking it from the office of priest in the Catholic church. But that is not biblical. That is the root of the issue. That said, there is no such thing in the bible as the pastor as we have it today. It is about as far away from the gift of shepherding mentioned in the NT. And, if someone has the gift of shepherd, nowhere does scripture show that person to be over a group of people.

[@mombythesea2426]

@@StandUp777Could you tell me where to study this? The idea that Constantine established the idea of a pastor? I’m not big on modern church so I want to know more. I’m surrounded by “pastors” in my everyday life.

[@hersheybella]

The nose ring? Seriously?

[@Anonymous-fv4dp]

Not impressed with this woman. She seems to think she has the pastoring gift. Not sure what she means, and what is actually taught at the church, about “misogynist.”

[@Lisa-qu5rv]

You had me fooled Julie Roy’s 🥲 So you had an inappropriate relationship with a female minor when you were a youth pastor ? You talk about it in your book .”Redeeming the Femine Soul”