Faith in Dialogue: Exploring Christian Virtues in a Diverse World with Jordan Hall Part 1

Join John Vervaeke and Jordan Hall on a thought-provoking journey into faith and meaning. Beyond mere intellectual debate, they delve into the heart of Christian virtues, the transformative potential of the imaginal, and the profound depths of dialogue. Through their respectful and insightful exchange, they navigate complex themes such as love, relationality, and the richness of the imaginal realm, illuminating how engagement with diverse spiritual traditions can deepen understanding and faith. John and Jordan provide actionable insights for personal and collective growth, presenting an open invitation for introspection of beliefs, fostering an environment for meaningful engagement, and unlocking the potential for true transformation. This conversation offers a unique opportunity to discover the complexities of faith and meaning, along with pathways to enrich spiritual and intellectual lives.
Jordan Hall, a pioneering figure at the forefront of societal transformation, co-founded MP3.com and DivX, catalyzing revolutions in music and online video. His ventures, such as Neurohacker Collective and Civium Project, harness cutting-edge technology and deep philosophical insights to address the metacrisis facing humanity. Currently, as Executive Chairman of Qualia Lifesciences, he leads efforts in human optimization, embodying the ethos of the fellowship of the spirit and inspiring profound dialogues on reimagining the future.
Glossary of Terms
Dialogos: A form of dialogue aimed at transcending mere conversation to reach deeper understanding and connection.
Imaginal: Pertaining to a mode of perception that transcends the purely sensory, engaging with symbols and the deeper aspects of reality.
Christian Virtues: Fundamental qualities valued in Christianity, such as faith, hope, and love.
John Vervaeke:
Website: johnvervaeke.com/
KZbin: / @johnvervaeke
Patreon: / johnvervaeke
X: / vervaeke_john
Facebook: / vervaekejohn
Jordan Hall
KZbin: / @jordangreenhall
Medium: / deep
X: jgreenhall?lang=en
Join our new Patreon
/ johnvervaeke
The Vervaeke Foundation - vervaekefoundation.org/
Awaken to Meaning - awakentomeaning.com/
Books, Articles, Videos, and Publications
Mere Christianity - C. S. Lewis www.amazon.com/Mere-Christian...
The Courage to Be - Paul Tillich www.amazon.com/Courage-Be-Pau...
Heart of Darkness - Joseph Conrad www.amazon.com/Heart-Darkness...
Boden, Margaret. (2009). Creativity in a nutshell. Think. 5. 83-96. www.researchgate.net/publicat...
The Psychological Drivers of the Metacrisis John Vervaeke, Iain McGilchrist, Daniel Schmachtenberger
• The Psychological Driv...
Embodiment and the Metacrisis with Rafe Kelley • Embodiment and the Met...
Quotes
"Make ourselves vehicles and instruments, both. That's something that's capable both of holding and expressing. So, I am the life and the light, and I am the way. Not the destination, not the end of the journey, but the way."​​ - Jordan Hall [00:44:11]
"The invitation to take up your cross and bear it, to step through the crucifixion of the human nature, must, in fact, be voluntarily self-crucified, and human will must surrender itself into a sort of a divine coupling. That's the stepping through of the win-lose into the win-win."​​ - Jordan Hall [01:20:00]
Chapters
00:03:00 - Christian Virtues and the Imaginal: A Journey into Spiritual Depth
00:20:00 - The Power of Transformative Dialogue: Unity and Deepening Faith
00:28:00 - Bridging Divides: The Quest for Global Unity and Transcendent Communication
00:52:00 - Faith's Duality: Wholesomeness Versus Completeness
01:05:00 - Encountering Sacredness: Reflections on Faith and Community
01:24:20 - Upcoming Dialogue: Non-Rivalrous Christianity, Religio, and the Fellowship of the Spirit

[@PaulVanderKlay]

This type of conversation is what we have been building a corner/community for. You can't just have a conversation like this. It requires a context, relationships, trust, all the things a proper arena requires. So glad to be watching this and have been privileged to participate in.

[@strangetheology]

Well said. A conversation that lives in a community and precipitates the growth of both.

[@zeno2501]

Owing in no small part to your sustained hard work and effort. I'm grateful to you Paul.

[@OmriC]

It really is one of a kind:)

[@manlikeJoe1010]

"A cahn-ver-ZATion about moh-DER-nity". My best Vanderklay impression 😂

[@matthewparlato5626]

Amen

[@PaulVanderKlay]

This one the one I've been waiting for!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@arono9304]

Even for PVK these are many exclamation marks!

[@KimberlyTLathrop]

Me too. And I'd like to see it go to the next step as articulated by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, Jean Gebser and Sri Aurobindo relating with Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.

[@HaigAltunian]

He said "fancy Vervaeke words" is a criticism (42:23)... I don't think he understands the spirit of that terminology coming out of the corner. Or am I the one misunderstanding it?

[@jjuniper274]

I grew up in a very Catholic and protestant community. You couldn't go a half mile without there being a church. As you walked from one end of town to the next, in any direction, you could see a cross. I'm not sure what that does to a community, but it seems like a very tight knit group of 35k people. There are many charities and human services programs; colleges and global corporations with headquarters here. The Eastern Europeans who migrated here built a nice community.

[@climbingmt.sophia]

Rarely has listening to a conversation brought me to tears, but this is tremendously special. Far too many layers to unpack here, but my soul sings to this

[@kylkrie]

This christianity as "the way" and not a "complete" doctrine resonates deeply. I've been wearing a cross, it feels right but I don't know what it means to be a christian. I got excited when I heard Jordan say John seems to be living a deeply christian life. The "yes, yes, and theres more" is much more inviting than "no, conform" Loved this, cant wait for part 2. Thank you both.

[@Kingfish179]

Interesting to note that the earliest Christian literature that we have - apart from the NT books - is the Didache, which begins its description of Christian doctrine as "The Way of Life" vs "the way of Death"

[@rsandy4077]

If you see Christianity from your practical progress, I agree it is not complete. But when Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life, this is complete, there is no higher truth way and life than Himself, as it is said elsewhere He is the refulgence of the glory Of God in him dwells the fullness of the deity bodily.

[@Vigula]

@@rsandy4077 and in the church he established :)

[@gpxavier]

A beautiful conversation! While part of me wanted to go on and say, 'But there's real differences here, real boundaries, real disagreements, that it's also important to deal with...' on second thought, that wasn't necessary; that can come later. The commonalities, mutual resonances, and the relationship are what matter now. Both of you seem to be fueled by a deep hope and joy, which is contagious.

[@janthonycologero9206]

Coming from a fundamentalist Christian background, this was healing for me. Thank you.

[@Jbobbybob]

Jordan Hall is a master of the felt sense. I see an expert phenomenologist in him.

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

Amen.

[@annemariesegeat9397]

What a flow between both of you! Calling each other home...no men left behind! This is it. This is the Spirit! Thank you 💓🙏

[@edwardsubbotin7019]

John's commitment to rebuidling the "Silk Road" reminds me of Simone Weil, a 20th century leftist intellectual turned "Christian" mystic. Although she had spontenous, profound exeriences that convinced her of the truth and centrality of Christ (I write this as a non-Christian), she felt unable to formally enter into communion with any expression of Christianity, although she was particularly drawn to Catholicism. Part of her reasoning for doing so was a sense of loyalty to those in her time and future who felt competing loyalties to the church and whatever other spiritual orientation had thier heart. Im grateful, as a non-Christian, to her and John's example. Also, I find her qoute oddly comforting: Christ likes us to prefer truth to him because, before being Christ, he is truth. If one turns aside from him to go toward the truth, one will not go far before falling into his arms.

[@rsandy4077]

Truth is and does what is true, that’s why The incarnation of the Truth, but I wonder whether we can appreciate the meaning of the truth incarnated crucified for us in the abstract or without this most true manifestation.

[@edwardsubbotin7019]

I suppose a way, the primary way for me, to measure this appreciation is by observing what kind of life is produced from the belief/framing. I have no doubt, and have observed, much good life produced from those who accept these beliefs in a more straightforward, literal way. And I have also seen people unable to live that same way, by framing those beliefs in the same exact way. And there are those in abundance who have entirely different framings/ beliefs, John being an excellent example, and live alife dedicated to the good, true and beautiful. I think that while it is best to leave such decisions to the individual, to discover what frame/belief best enabled them to love God and neighbor, it can be argued that there are a finite amount of these proper framings/beliefs.

[@edwardsubbotin7019]

Probably is very heavily influenced by the spirit which a person approaches these thing: what are they after, really? And as people are widely different, there will be widely different approaches, yet, a common orientation , pattern, lifestyle can be observed.

[@rsandy4077]

I would follow up my statement in relation to yours that instead of looking at our subjective experiences, we look at ehat truth is and does, is there anything more deeply true than truth himself dying for us for love? Is this manifestation above all the key to the deepest truth? And is there then any other way than this incarnation and death and resurrection that we can appreciate it as much? There is only this one manifestation in the world according to the many belief-framings there has been in the world.

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

@subbotin7019 Truth is, necessarily, very exclusive, while lies and deception are as inclusive as can possibly be. Eventually, to receive ultimate clarity, the decision tree needs to collapse, and the way revealed.

[@HantonSacu]

I asked Vervaeke a question on patreon, continued listening to this and damn, I got some answers 😂

[@matthewparlato5626]

Im a Christian and as far as living heroes/men I admire, John Vervaeke is it. So that makes him some kind of Christian...?

[@hunterglenn2787]

Amazing discussion! I've been such a fan of Vervaeke's, and Hall has just changed the way I understand the power of contemplating the cross image. Here in 'Metamodern Commentary on Vervaeke/Hall's Christian "Anti-rivalry"', I comment on the cross as this impossible symbol of hope, as Christ was theoretically experiencing peace on the cross rather than unbearable suffering. I also touch on what I see as Vervaeke's handshake psychotechnology applied between schools of thought, as he mentions happening between Buddhism and Daoism: If we adorn and clarify each religion/philosophy with the insights of every other one and help each system get MORE of what it's seeking in this way, then that may pave the way for them to be a little more open to these other systems which have produced such valuable-to-them insights. And if those systems have similarly benefited from this process, then maybe they'll be open to reciprocating that reaching out, joining in a handshake and a harmony that compensates for their differences and allows them to co-exist. kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z6mwmHaceLGtnJY

[@andrew_blank]

1:15:07 so much said through the conversation where David Bentley Hart could be invoked. My personal favorite for reconstructing the central message of Christianity, away from a theme of narcissism in-all-directions and towards an invitation to participate in something good, true, and beautiful

[@K-A5]

Something that's been in my mind recently, is when Adam in Genesis names all the animals. Its such a human thing (object permanance) especially a masculine quality to define and seperate and narrow down something, to want to label others in the environment. Its perhaps more a feminine quality to not want to label something or someone and still be able to enjoy them as they are. To let an animal just *be* and not name it nor touch it nor alter its path in any way, to just be in casual awe about observing it and then going about your day as you and it coexist peacefully. Understanding something deeply is important but you dont need to totally understand another in order to enjoy their presence.

[@transfigured3673]

Excited for this!

[@WhiteStoneName]

1:25:30 for me the first time I heard this “Christianity is the religion without a religion” was someone in Grail Country. I remember it being Nate Hile.

[@WhiteStoneName]

35:55 "Why I didn't want to debate doctrine with you." Amen. Discussing doctrine, iron sharpening iron, can be beautiful *when* always undergirded by love and communion, in spite of our doctrinal differences.

[@FoodTruckEmily]

55:34 here’s your spirit of mammon ❤️

[@WhiteStoneName]

@@FoodTruckEmily I recognize a lot of what Jordan is saying. Yep. Would be fun to hang out with him sometime.

[@christianacker3543]

SO Grateful for these two men. Their relationship and their conversations. So grateful they have allow so many of us to benefit it and also to practice listening.

[@SakutoNoSAI]

I can see Jordan, a trained philosopher, struggling to explain his appreciation, being symbolic, transjective and perspectively practical; yet also trying to balance, as a believer, the Awe-Some realization that the biblical stories and concepts are true realities, historical and literal. Its one thing to embody Christian practice, its another to realize Jesus actually and physically rose. Not everyone is for that, but we believe it as a physical and spiritual reality. Its hard to express that while also expressing the power of the worldview with philosophical sterility. I struggle with that as well.

[@UpCycleClub]

Looking forward to diving into this one too! Thanks to both of you

[@mcnallyaar]

It's a trip watching this because I am slowly becoming Catholic. I want to be in dialogue with the Religion that is not a Religion but, personally, I need a structured community already in play, and Catholicism sort of hits all the check marks for me.

[@DeepTalksTheology]

Thank you for this John and Jordan.

[@johnvervaeke]

Thx Paul

[@bloomingwanderer9591]

Can you invite Richard Rohr into this conversation please?! His representation of the Universal Christ within Catholicism is such a brilliant interpretation of the golden thread that lines the Way!

[@TheHangedMan]

I believe your quests are the same quest. Thank you both for being inspirations for me. Please, please continue!

[@bloomingwanderer9591]

“The possibilities of the Sacred are inexhaustible… “ ❤️‍🔥 YES!

[@Kingfish179]

34:45 I don't know if this work is on your radar, Dr. Vervaeke, but I highly recommend the book Christ the Eternal Tao written by Hieromonk Damascene, an Eastern Orthodox monk and priest. He wrote it in order to demonstrate the similarity between the teachings of Lao Tzu and Jesus Christ as understood by Eastern Christianity. The basic thesis is that Lao Tzu was a divinely inspired prophet who gained mystical insight into the God whose Way (Word/Logos) would become incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ. Basically, it's the idea that Christ is the full revelation of what Lao Tzu foreshadowed. Though written from an Eastern Orthodox perspective, it's interacts with Taoism with great care and reverence for the tradition. The book is incredibly insightful, and an absolute joy to read; poetic, compelling and multifaceted - indeed, difficult to summarize!

[@johnvervaeke]

Yes I do have the book. Reading it in prep for the Silk Road. Thx.

[@christianbaxter_yt]

1:11:36 Christianity is not a zero sum game… damn good stuff here… and this was not present in the Christianity of my childhood either

[@christianbaxter_yt]

1:03:49 this was my direct connection to Jordan’s story - which must be cultivated and passed down with intention

[@raftastrock]

Really enjoyed this conversation, thank you John for your candor and openness. You're a wonderful model of engaging in trusting dialogos. One thing that came to mind, and it's a recent passion of mine, is the work of George Kunz, a Levinasian scholar, in his book "The Paradox of Power and Weakness" which counters modern psychology paradigms with the fundamental responsibility we have to the Other. I mention it because I think both of you are, with your desire to love your neighbor, trying to articulate what Kunz has written very thoughtfully (and challengingly) about. I've no idea if you have time to pick up a new book, but I found it very rewarding and formative. Thanks again!

[@AndrewHewitt1]

Such a beautiful example of love - attempting to quench Truth without taking away from the others who are equally thirsty. Instead, pouring a little of what you have into their cup, and delighting when they do the same.

[@bradbatten8953]

Beautiful. Pilgrim on!

[@ElijahLogozar]

Icon! LOOKING THROUGH instead of at.!!!!! THANKS SO MUCH FOR THIS CONCEPT!!!!!!!!!!!

[@WhiteStoneName]

52:49 "I take it that there were forms of Christianity that would not have allowed this continuity." Absolutely. Many of us in the TLC have experienced this. Very related to my ongoing continuity with Sam Tideman. Edit: And others. All of us are doing this. #PostConfessionalism

[@alecfoster448]

“Christ the Eternal Tao” by Heiromonk Damascene would be a helpful book for this conversation

[@user-uo3vn7tv4b]

Thanks John and Jordan. John, your intuition to help bring forth the through line (the Silk Road) is what this world desperately needs and many of us are working towards. I am a follower of Jesus and at the same time absolutely honor and participate in several other traditions. While living in Maui, I studied Zen meditation with Roshi Aitken, which I still practice. I also sat with and studied the Sufi tradition, and danced in many Dhikr worship occasions. I have participated in several other paths and feel they have all inspired me and opened my heart to a universal appreciation of the divine in our lives. Please keep up the good work! Sometimes it is lonely being a prophetic voice. It is always Easier to settle into an ethnocentric/philosophical/psychological silo.

[@MrHwaynefair]

Father Thomas Plant would be a great third interlocutor here… Thanks, John, for sharing this sometimes difficult conversation. I have a deep respect for you, sir! ❤️

[@WhiteStoneName]

Not familiar with him. Hey, Wayne! :)

[@MrHwaynefair]

@@WhiteStoneName Hey Luke! Loved your comment ❤️! John’s mentioned him: The Lost Way to the Good: Dionysian Platonism, Shin Buddhism, and the Shared Quest to Reconnect a Divided World 👍

[@lipto722]

Vervaeke's "silk road" path resonates with me profoundly, as it puts reciprocal opening front and center. Whereas I feel engaging in exponential opening of the faith muscle itself, especially within the language set parameters of doctrined monotheism, inevitably opens up a feedback loop of closing of other doors laying outside of its framework; ultimately cursing those into the confines of the devil if they cannot be enjoined into the faith algorithm. Because of this, my personal intuition is that a Christian framing, especially within the current context of society's exponential information proliferation, ultimately is realized in a state of restrictionism monopolizing one's framing, and it seems to correlate with an increased distaste, in a general sense, as opposed to an intrinsic curiosity.

[@strangetheology]

Other than a few clips this will be my first careful listen to John Vervaeke. I can already understand why so many good people like him, and why so many others can’t understand him. 😁

[@Art2GoCanada]

Welcome Home 📘🙏☯️❤️✝️🔥

[@word-pictures]

This conversation touched my heart/soul/mind on so many levels. What a joy/privilege to listen to you two. 🕊️

[@ourblessedtribe9284]

beautiful, thank you both. You are both shining with an honest light.

[@colorfulbookmark]

Dr.Vervaeke's emphasis to spirituality is applied for anyone who live life in community. The autonomy is often not working and when it is becoming trustworthy, many people become struggle in their life, not only by appliers but victimized people too. It is very often reluctant feeling when therapy is given, it is what is the procedures we need, because people do not know the victims even though people know they need help. The emphasis to spirituality is greater than confrontative mind in selfish condition. The selfish is not confined word for victims, so meaningful. If the victim has developed his skill to have the help, it is good. Of course, people can get worried if simplified mode of comments would be restriction, I think Dr.Vervaeke and his fellows are great not to be this. Someone blamed Dr.Peterson too, but he is also careful presenter for helping video for struggled in school, I think UT psychology professors are great people.

[@user-dx9nr1jm9c]

1:21 “The religio is done. It’s a finished work. Christ did the religio. It’s complete. We are reconnected, we are reconciled with the Infinite. And now we have to simply live it….”

[@colorfulbookmark]

I am cold two days ago and today it was ache of head, now refreshing when I watch this conversation. It is feeling of the sufferings, to realize there are people who can help people and it is true love people can give people and please tolerate many replies ^^ Medicine is good solution and this conversation is more than that. The conversation some people do not concern is what some other people concern and as it is existing and to know it, it is empowerment for their life.

[@ben-sanford]

I've been looking forward to this, thank you both!

[@colorfulbookmark]

The things Dr.Vervaeke and his fellows give are inspirational and motivative for people who have meaning crisis, conversation he presented with fellows are good example for people who would like to contribute community too ^^

[@jason-iy7vs]

This was great.

[@alenpuacadesign]

Genesis is not chronology but ontology :) Also "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life" IS taoistic, platonic, and phenomenological. And even more - deeply personal, participatory.

[@breaking.protocol]

"🌍 Unlocking the Win-Win of Christian Discipleship 🤝: Start with positivity, mentor (A) guides disciple (B). Reciprocate - B becomes a mentor, forging a cycle of growth. Forgive mistakes with grace. Correct deviance for collective betterment. Result? Spiritual growth, multiplying positive influence, tight-knit communities, and potential world impact! 🌟 #ChristianDiscipleship #PositiveImpact #FaithJourney"

[@mellonglass]

This is great. Maybe now we can plant some trees to put the garden of Eden food forest back where it is feeding animals?

[@Perry.Okeefe]

Woohoo, I love listening to the two of you. Great combination.

[@JeremiahVincent-dq6wp]

at 1:04:00 or so Jordan mentions the moment between the girl and the baby and the presence of the sacred, reminds me of Chesterton's quotation, "Man cannot love mortal things. He can only love immortal things for an instant." The intrusion or opening and inclusion of the sacred within an ordinary moment

[@movewithseth]

This is very encouraging ❤

[@swayson5208]

john's vocabulary and use of words is so precise, hard to keep up.

[@markoboychuk]

Amazing! Enjoyed every second of this.

[@neilalexandermusic]

Big fan of you both. Looking forward to this conversation

[@intuitivesean443]

I hope that some people don’t mistake these talks as a reason to continue with or enlarge or to practice The New Age movement, that would be a grave mistake

[@johnvervaeke]

Yes exactly!!

[@breaking.protocol]

A disciple in the Fellowship of the Spirit is being called home, and their duty is to encourage, uplift and edify others they encounter along the way... the Way of community and fellowship.

[@projectmalus]

Very interesting, thanks.

[@transfigured3673]

Pioneer of our faith = "archegon" . Basically greek word arche turned into a personal noun. The first, beginning, founding, source one.

[@matthewparlato5626]

U da man Sam Thx for the etymology

[@ShadowMan547]

Great example of TLC

[@OceanRoadbyTonyBaker]

Thanks, guys.

[@teestrypzSOG]

you two brought the best out of each other in this conversation.

[@matthewparlato5626]

Words between men as art.

[@andrew_blank]

“This feeling of invitation into collaboration” 1:06:19 - great observation. Jordan seems gifted at putting into words things that are intuited but many of us couldn’t quite put a finger on

[@PetrosSyrak]

I really liked the bit from 49:28 to 50:40🙂 Thanks for your continuing work, John.

[@Art2GoCanada]

I've been following you 2 on KZbin since before the pandemic, the fellowship of the Spirit is a derivative of AA. So again I say welcome home 🙏 you have been 12 stepping each other all along. Thanks for the inspiration. Please keep sharing God's blessings. He's working in and through you both. Namaste 🙏

[@corykobel6117]

This is maybe my favorite conversation I’ve seen yet. The commitment to truth and humility you both share is an incredibly rich and fruitful soil. It is amazing that Jordan, having been researching Christianity for a relatively short time, has such profound insight on the state of the Church. I think he has already read more than I will be able to in my lifetime! I pray that this mutually flowering dialogos continues. Anticipating the silk road with excitement. Tradition holds that the Magi of the Epiphany of Christ who followed the star were likely Zoroastrian Persians, but I can’t get it out of my head that they are also related to the Taoist Chinese. I’ve been thinking about it for a few years. I’m sure you’re both already familiar with the book, “Christ the Eternal Tao.”

[@FitzChivalry08]

When you described this “through line” connecting all these mystical traditions It really speaks to some higher knowing within me and I can’t even explain it. This video comes in such a strange coincidental time where I’ve been experiencing these same questions and thoughts on the subject. Thank you so much and keep up the wholesome dialogue 🙏🏼

[@rdub4nd]

This is going to be a very important conversation. These two guys are absolute super heroes! Thank you both for taking us along on your life journey!

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

Many thanks for having this dialogos with Jordan Hall about Christian virtues. Very informative! I'm so thankful you brought up the name of Bernard McGinn, one of my greatest heroes, thanks to his writing of "The Presence of God" series, the greatest history of mysticism of the Western world ever written. It's shocking that his name does not come up more often than it does. I've been onboard with McGinn since "The Foundations of Mysticism", and find him to be excellent starting point for understanding the tremendous impact Christian mysticism has had on history. FYI: Currently I'm reading about Bernadette Soubirous, the girl who mary appeared to in Lourdes, France. It's fascinating how often apparitions happen to the most simple, uneducated people. Not always, but it's far more common than we realize. One thing for sure: mysticism is almost intentionally anti-intellectual. There's a good reason for that of course. As for the issue of "Christian Nationalism", it's 99% political and academic propaganda, about 1% reality. The simple truth is that the spiritual center of America was established by the Puritans landing in Plymouth, Massachusetts in 1620. In a very real way, America has always been a Christian nationalist country, up to the 1960's at least. As for the form that Christian nationalism really takes in America here in the 21st century, I would highly encourage you to go visit Jordan Hall in Black Mountain, North Carolina and "meet and greet" the people of Appalachia, the most spiritual place in the entire United States, no exaggeration. The Holy Spirit has a very powerful presence in eastern Tennessee and western North Carolina; it has to be personally experienced to be appreciated. You will find it to be the most wholesome and grounded place you have ever been. In regards to chivalry, you can't really fully understand that idea until you fully explore it in its final and most powerful form: the American Western. Are there significant spiritual and philosophical lessons to learn from the simplicity of the archetypes of the American Western? Quite a few actually. It's a crime that "The Western" is not taken seriously at all by the academy, as it's explanatory power is more powerful than that of Plato or Aristotle. It is truly the mythology of America, and by extension, modern Western Civilization. Even the modern Japanese samurai and ronin movies and media is very much cousins with The Western. And then, in the 1950's, the Western mutated into the modern genre of Science Fiction. Are Star Trek and Star Wars just Westerns for the space age? Probably much more so than we realize. The most significant show ever to be put on a streaming platform: Disney's "The Mandalorian", is the very definition of modern chivalry. In that series, we have a marriage of the most significant archetypes of Western Civilization: 'the Western', 'the Knight in Shining Armor', 'the Space Opera", and mysticism itself. The shocking thing about that show: it demonstrates, conclusively, how mysticism triumphs over science and technology. Thanks again for a very intriguing video!

[@oneilprovost2287]

I very much admire these two men for their candor, intellect and insight... above all else I believe them to be men of good faith so I'll consider just about anything they discuss as strong signal and minimal noise. I myself am still looking for the appropriate tribe to retreat to when things get kinda spicy so I'll continue to tune in to hear whatever they might have discovered on the subject.

[@djschneck]

Thank you both for sharing a powerful conversation that speaks to the ❤ of the human condition

[@alexiscabrie5432]

What an astounding, beautiful and necessary conversation... I thank you deeply both and all the people and community around you for that.

[@leedufour]

Thanks Jordan and John!

[@johnvervaeke]

Thanks Lee

[@JordanGreenhall]

Lee, you rock!

[@huseyinbeykoylu6579]

This was an absolutely beautiful conversation!! John, at the beginning you potentially delivered one of the (if not the most) inspiring and powerful monologues I've seen you deliver! Thank you both for being such virtuous role models🙏

[@jeffbarney3584]

I love what Jordan said in the end about John's diligence and sincerity. It truly is a service to us all. I see a whole new level of humility in Jordan. I see his playful language of inversions a powerful device that puts one in mind of the very Christian (in the sense of "of Christ) Jewish Zohar. John's metaphysical floor from an epistemological perspective is the imaginal. Or perhaps it could be said from a different perspective, his ontological ceiling, or as he says it "ontological depth perception". John I believe you are self imposing a limit here. The imaginal according to the Zohar and other deep esoteric work is only a stage in, of and into dimensional perception. You use the term inspiration. As just just barely touched upon, this would be an imbuement of pure information unmediated by the imaginal - something like intonement. Thank you, I look forward to the next.

[@jeffbarney3584]

To add to this theme and to locate the virtues in the structure of reality where the behavior is a resultant not the goal: Faith linked to the imaginal is just right from a structure phenomenology perspective. It is the actuality of appearances. The depth perception here grows yet we always return to this beginning. We change and the world changes and we change each other. Hope is rightly linked to intentionality as the tension between the self and the world that is including the tension between my intentia and my potentia. There is a transition that occurs again in structures and that would rightly be called love as reconciliation of tensions. That would be for humans the processes of metamorphosis in the Goethean sense. Once that tension becomes crucified on the horizontal and vertical that is to say fully metabolized it becomes inherent. Part of the given that is not given it becomes post evident and then so part of the new appearances as faith grows stronger with greater imaginal perception. Intentionality becomes purpose beyond conflicting desires and potential is no longer siren songs but more purely inspired intonement {the music of the spheres} is pure inspiration unmediated by imaginal symbols - intention is then free motive - hope enriched with ideals. Metamorphosis with agency is the process of intuition as love incarnates inherent to being.

[@Yoshio5190]

I love accusing people that they are more Christian than they think they are! Of course I didn't accuse myself of that until recently, and it seems more and more people are realizing this as well. Thanks for sharing the fellowship and intimacy. You two bring out the best in each other. I can't wait to hear how Christianity is the RTNAR!

[@ElijahLogozar]

yay! more process oritented discussions?

[@schoolofsoulidarity]

@John I am so glad you have finally mentioned Ibn Al-Arabi which in my view was missing from your pursuits previously. You might also find The World of Image in Islamic Philosophy Ibn Sina, Suharawardi, Shahrazuri and Beyond by L.W.C. Van Lit

[@TheMeditatingPhilosopher]

He talks about him in his newest series, but maybe you missed it. And Tom Cheetham, who writes about him a lot, in his first series (last 5 episodes really when Corbin comes up) and in a few interviews with John too. I'm sure there's a few others I'm forgetting but hopefully that helps! What's your favorite thing about Ibn Al-Arabi if you had to pick just one aspect? Maybe it would help others appreciate why you like him and I'd enjoy knowing. :)

[@schoolofsoulidarity]

@@TheMeditatingPhilosopher thanks for your comment and for drawing my attention to John's work/mention of Ibn Al-Arabi. Surely, it seems like I might have missed it. Even though I tend to watch every video of John. :) As for my favourite from Shaykh Arabi's work. It has to be the universality of the Unity of Existence (Wahdat Tul-Wajud) which made way for quantum theory/realisation.

[@benhennessy-garside2302]

Anyone else yet clocked that John the baptist ended up baptising Jesus in the river Jordan?

[@evo1ov3]

Ever studied trigonometry? I never did. Almost had a heart attack when I discovered Dennis Davis's videos on how to "visualize trigonometry." 🤔 Thales & Pythagoras were in it. Only thing missing was Plato. There's your philosphical silk road. Because there's only one video on KZbin I can find. By an educator that addresses the relationship between the Christian Cross and Plato's Divided Line. And it has to deal with Augustine. Besides this one. 😶 I need to get to work! Lol! You guys are CRAZY. loljk! 🤣 cheers 🍻😎

[@martinzarathustra8604]

Jordan forgot the other part of John 14:6 that John V just doesn't seem to want to come to terms with: "No one comes to the Father except through me." Exclusivity claims are part of Christianity. I just don't see, unless there is some kind of massive reformation, that going away from modern Christianity any time soon. It is part of its power to convert. It offers freedom from uncertainty - do not underestimate this fact.

[@ButterBobBriggs]

17:41 - the Silk Road - it's an interesting term to me, because one form of Christianity, mostly gone now, was the Church of the East, a vast, vibrant and ancient tradition that spread all along the silk road from Syria, to Persia, on to Mongolia and China and Southward to India as early as the 7th century. A form of Christianity that was not Greek or Roman. There was a time when ancient Christians and the other world religions co-existed along these ancient roadways. Most everyone in the West knows nothing about this part of Christianity.

[@christianbaxter_yt]

❤

[@turner373]

I ask this in genuine good faith, what percentage of the 2 billion practicing Christians in the world would recognize what is presented here as representative of their faith?

[@johnvervaeke]

Yes that is a pertinent question.

[@NathanielJ.Franco]

🤠

[@breaking.protocol]

🌐 Chaos, Christ & Community: Applying 'Tit-for-Tat' to Christian Discipleship 🔄 - Like chaos theory, small acts of positive influence (A to B) ripple, creating interconnected communities. Every disciple, a catalyst for a harmonious world. 🌍✨ #ChaosToCommunity #Fellowshipofthespirit

[@Vigula]

Oh dear, Mr Hall's microphone needs fixing. Needed subtitles and that's only for his first sentence :( Will see how it goes from here. As an aside. given Mr Halls's apparently intense dedication to his quest, I would humbly suggest he speak to Scott Hahn if possible, as at the moment he seems to have only half the story.

[@jason-iy7vs]

Sweeeeeeet

[@aaronpoage597]

In the depths of self, we seek to find The virtues that enrich the mind Nine traits that guide our human way Inward journey to a brighter day Self-awareness, the first to greet Understanding thoughts, emotions deep A mirror held to see within Revealing truths where we begin Empathy flows, a binding thread Connecting souls, as one we tread Understanding others, hearts entwined In the tapestry of human kind Authenticity, a beacon's light To shine through shadows, pure and bright Embracing self, without disguise Unveiling truth beneath the skies Responsibility, a call to own Our thoughts and deeds, seeds we've sown Crafting lives with mindful art Guiding actions from the heart Compassion blooms, a gentle flower Nurtured in life's fleeting hour Kindness sown in word and deed A balm for souls in time of need Open-mindedness, a fertile ground Where new perspectives may be found Curiosity as our guiding star Ignites the flame that takes us far Integrity stands, unwavering strong A pillar of truth where we belong In thoughts and actions, honor's claim Guiding us through life's shifting frame Resilience, the warrior's might Facing trials with fearless sight Learning, growing from each test Emerging stronger, at our best Gratitude, the closing chord In harmony with life's rich hoard Thankfulness for all that's given A bridge to joy, a path to heaven These virtues nine, a path to see The bigger picture of you and me Inward process, our souls set free

[@MusicMissionary]

Maybe Jesus represents the paradox between the virtue of justice and the virtue of forgiveness. They're both virtues, but sometimes forgiveness requires forgoing justice. Particularly as most of us confuse it with revenge.

[@missh1774]

41:10 When chivalry is dead and gone. Drunkenness can also do that. But that's dangerous if it's a band-aid rather than the reverential participation of religio. 1:02:06 Homegrown and Handmade Piccalilli. A healthy dash of wholesomeness served on top of a free range gourmet beef paddy to be enjoyed either with or without the fancy stuff. 1:27:49 Fellowship of Spirit. At first I thought you were offering a Scholarship to come to Rome 🤭. Dang it. Thank you both for this interactive experience.

[@WhiteStoneName]

The particularity of the Incarnation (that then becomes universally applied in all persons idiosyncratically) is specific to Christianity. The Person of Christ is not an abstract idea. While I love Kabbalists, Sufis, Daoists, etc. There isn’t an exclusivist-inclusivist, universal-particular Incarnation of the Potency or Principle or G-d. The Person of Jesus Christ is all of Christianity and the fullness of God. And I mean none of that in some fundamentalist, historical-critical, rationalist way. I’m merely making an intellectual point. Which is a piece of the full was of proper knowledge, imo. For example: 21:20 - 21:30. It’s not one example of a a larger reality. It IS the reality. “Christ the only existent one.”

[@tarhunta2111]

Jordan Hall is incurable.

[@jonyspinoza3310]

🌞

[@projectmalus]

at 8 min the imaginal and fictional (edit: literal and fictional) between "area" seems like polarization at the 45 degree positioning, base umps and bass players found there. Interesting to see where the sacred language is expressed in their arrangements, the mustard in the hot dogs connecting the crowd with the world (crucifixerous cross shaped flower, one intent with many forms like the grass) and bass player connecting the written score melody that aspires with the shamanic beats and breathing. Without watching further I surmise this imaginal route is preferable is because the grounding in virtue placed at a higher priority level or whatever allows compromise which releases the creativity of the fictional from the position at the higher level and that duty, imaginal between at the mezzanine place as connected.

[@CaptainPhilosophical]

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do." Jesus Stop selling yourself short. Do the work and you too can be just as great or greater!

[@Den_Stomp]

No sure how familiar John is with the hesychast tradition in Christianity, but I think that is a potential bridge with Daosim/Buddhism and concepts of flow/mindfulness/ultimacy. In terms of embodiment, that’s where liturgy becomes the bridge.