Neelix Defends Memorial of a Massacre

[@alexnorth757]

Neelix is the only one of them thats actually LIVED an atrocity. the others dismiss remembering so easily but not him, he knows the importance of learning from past mistakes.

[@Tommy92gunner]

Still doesn't justify force trauma dumping, by forcing it to be other's problems you make the issue WORSE and it will doom us to repeat it.

[@nicholasemjohnson47]

@@Tommy92gunner How would forcing it risk repeating history? If people know, they will understand the gravity of horrible actions.

[@kbanghart]

​@@Tommy92gunnerThat's why they put a warning buoy in orbit.

[@Akechi_The_Phantom_Detective]

Well… no. Safe to say you guys haven’t ever murdered someone because you’re not a fucking psychopath. If you need to experience massacring people first hand to know doing that is beyond reprehensible then you have much bigger issues. We disregard Neelix because the asshole thinks subjecting others to the first hand experience of massacring civilians is the only way people would learn not to do that. Which is the kind of thinking a 6 year old would come up with.

[@johntracy72]

A lot of fans may have despised Neelix, but this is one of his shining moments.

[@Akechi_The_Phantom_Detective]

Honestly, while I love this episode I've got to say... no it really doesn't feel like it. His argument is the only way to avoid making the same mistakes like causing a massacre is by witnessing it first hand and I don't know about you but more nor anyone else I've ever come across would ever kill someone accidentally or on purpose and in fact it's what this crew in particular advocate to avoid. But due to this flawed logic, the Voyager crew allow others to be traumatised by the events of the Nakan massacre.

[@Ragitsu]

@@Akechi_The_Phantom_Detective It does feel like it.

[@olternaut]

Despised? Who???

[@tarafudge]

@@Akechi_The_Phantom_Detective they deployed warning buoys I think

[@conorharris2451]

he could be a bit annoying

[@DantesonofSparda85]

whoever wrote the script for this episode modeled it after the phrase "Those that forget the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat it"

[@IsaacBeImont]

I like to believe the species in question was dependant on the transmitter as a homing point to find it, and had not been able to visit for 200+ years after the malfunction, but now would be able to find it again.

[@bigevil1001]

The Inner Light's sadistic evil twin brother.

[@teddybetts3254]

That's a really good point. I didn't even think of that. It's a black mirror image of Inner Light. 👍 Though it wasn't meant to be sadistic; as Neelix said, it was about remembering.

[@oolooo]

Actually , The Inner Light is also sadistic and evil

[@kbanghart]

​@@oolooohow so?

[@danielkubin3878]

@@kbanghart Are you kidding? Imagine that you think that you live someone life for about 30 - 40 years, then you "wake up" you have to live we that you have memories of someone else for rest of the life. And boy, there are shit in live which no one want to remember. This is even worse, becuase you have to remember something you dont want to know and some one force you do so and even Janeway decide to repair! And play a buoy somewhere in space, which could be easy to destroy by someone else, or worse which nobody could uderstand what is telling it. High scifi concept, with terrible outcome. I would shut down this memorial.

[@kbanghart]

@@danielkubin3878 Well I respect your opinion, but I disagree, I would not shut it down. I'm not sure what you mean about living 30 to 40 years of someone's life or whatever. In the episode, they didn't live all that amount of time as the other person. You know that real change doesn't happen unless people experience events firsthand, right? The warning buoy in orbit is a very good feature. Dismantling the memorial would basically mean that we are judging that entire civilization and proclaiming they are wrong, which we cannot make that decision.

[@Gaeilgeoir]

A powerful episode.

[@cyberstar251]

this hits home for alot of people, especially war vets because it's absolutely true, words alone can't tell the whole story, but once you know the truth behind them, it's your truth.

[@modelsnstuffreveiws6628]

It’s one thing to have a memorial, that is good, to remember. It is another thing to impose trauma upon another, to thrust a generations woes upon the next in a way they cannot handle and leaves them just as scarred as the last, shame on those who built this thing.

[@MrLantean]

The purpose of imposing the memories of the massacre on others may be controversial but only by actually experiencing the event that people will truly understand what happen which resulted the massacre. That way the event will not be forgotten.

[@Renegade2786]

Those that live in Gaza Strip would disagree.

[@nicholasemjohnson47]

Memorials can be destroyed or forgotten. Memories forced into you last forever. I don't like the idea of forcing trauma, but sometimes the best way to learn is by unwanted learning. Janeway fortunately came up with the option of deploying a warning beacon so that other crews would know what to expect.

[@kbanghart]

There's no shame at all on the builders

[@danielkubin3878]

@@nicholasemjohnson47 Warning beacon could be easy destroyed or misunderstood. Its lame excuse to keep this horrible device active. Not mention that she breaking Prime directive.

[@1TheNews]

Great episode.

[@Alamandorious]

And this is why you never, ever, tear down statues.

[@tek512]

One of very few times Neelix and Janeway did something admirable.

[@peterwood2908]

After watching jetrel, one admires Neelix in this negotiation.

[@KH4444444444N]

This is top tier world-building.

[@CaptainSovereign]

Mass Effect fans:Wow this technology is so coool Star Trek Fans:Not again.... (Prothean beacons)

[@Boskov01]

I get the joke, but at the same time, it's not a fair comparison since the Prothean Beacons still required some level of direct, willful, interfacing. You had to consciously interface with the memorial, or at least make some effort to do so. The memorial was just beaming those memories into anyone and everyone at will.

[@nicholasemjohnson47]

I understand the pain of forced trauma, but I also understand the need to let people experience the memories themselves. So many people either try to forget, deny, justify, or invent a false version of atrocities. Reliving the memories yourself makes you know the actual truth. Of course, there are many species that would enjoy the violence or see the victims as weaklings. So I do understand the reason why forced memories would often produce the opposite effect. I would advocate modifying the monument so that one can access the memories voluntarily without any forced trauma. Though Janeway's option was good enough: Deploying a warning beacon to caution other crews of what they might experience.

[@Ubermensch9240]

No. That in itself could lead to another tragedy. If people are given a choice 9 out of 10 would always say no. There's a difference between WANTING to know and NEEDING to know. Those who do not know their history are condemned to repeat it.

[@nicholasemjohnson47]

@Ubermensch9240 I agree that we should remember our history, but I've come to think that the phrase, "Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it," may not be entirety accurate. People already know about slavery, segregation, and discrimination. Yet there are still people today who want to bring it back, believing that life was better then. We know of the terrible wars, massacres and genocides throughout history. But they haven't stopped. They're still happening today. Why? Because not everyone learns from history the same way. As I've said, other species would react differently to the massacre. The Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, and Hirogen would probably either enjoy the violence or see the victims as weak. And why do we need to learn of this tragedy to know that killing or oppression is wrong? Don't get me wrong: I know that we shouldn't forget history. And we should definitely learn from it. But we should also understand that not everyone would see it the same way.

[@Ubermensch9240]

@@nicholasemjohnson47 Humanity has a LOT of problems actually learning from their mistakes. "Words alone cannot convey the suffering". I think about what could drive a person to make this machine and I came to a deeply troubling conclusion: they tried to stop something like this from happening by telling people it's wrong and it didn't work. Words are not enough. Giving them a choice to learn or not learn only increased the chance of it happening again.

[@damenwhelan3236]

Voyager had some deep moments.

[@anglobostonian]

A "broken clock" moment for Neelix.

[@DblOSmith]

Great episode with back and forth valid moral points. My opinion: Forcing a trauma onto innocent people is assault, and it doesn't matter the reason why. I'm with Chakotay. Deactivate it, and let it stand. Maybe add an addendum that if you replace the energy source, you may relive the memories as the creators intended.

[@Tommy92gunner]

Bit of a stretch there fam, there is no legal statement since the founding of law that states forced trauma dumping is assault, I agree it makes the issue worse and solves nothing, but legally that is not how that works.

[@DblOSmith]

@@Tommy92gunner Not assault specifically, but I encourage you to look up "Intentional infliction of emotional distress." This is textbook IIED.

[@nicholasemjohnson47]

I understand the pain of forced trauma, but the memories need to remain. I would advocate modifying it so that one can access the memories voluntarily without any forced trauma.

[@DblOSmith]

@@nicholasemjohnson47 I'll allow that. :)

[@derranthefunnyguy]

Episode 14 Season 5 : Memorial In case anyone wants to watch the whole episode.

[@ryusuei]

Season 6 actually.

[@marvlouslie2053]

It still pains me that they were finally able to do something with Neelix near the end of Voyager. They couldn't seem to get him right in the first few seasons.

[@kbanghart]

That's because kes was also involved. But he had decent episodes all throughout

[@molybdaen11]

They can revive the death but have no hard drugs to forget things?

[@damenwhelan3236]

1:01 I find it a great insult that such merits come from chekotay. Neelix and chekotay should have been the voices for the memory.

[@meltedplasticarmyguy]

History is there not for you to change or destroy, but to learn from. If you are offended by history, even better, you then will never make the same mistake. One cannot "cherry-pick" history, to do so dishonors the sacrifices and accomplishments of our ancestors. We are the culmination of all that came before. Every action, every thought made by every person has led to this exact point in time, and your life will influence the next generation, and so on.

[@Tommy92gunner]

History is a lie, there is no offense here, its fact, just cause it happened doesn't make it history my guy, and let me tell you, humanity has FAILED, its existence is a cancer, one that must be removed.

[@nicholasemjohnson47]

@@Tommy92gunner Your statement makes zero sense. If it happened, it is history. And what do you mean remove our existence?

[@danielkubin3878]

Yes but have to be done voluntarily by specific person if is interested, or as part of some schooling program. Imagine that you going for walk in city around some World war II. memorial which its happen to be in City center and you have to experience horrible staff from World War II. even that you dont dont want to know and inside you are normal person not mass murderer. How long do you thing would take than this Memorial would be turned off. I would say not much. What Janeway did in the end of episode, its noble, ale it make zero sense for other races, which could even use this technology for evil things once they found out how it works. She had no right to do so. As usually, she even consider for moment, that she breaking Prime Directive.

[@lawnmowermanTX]

The Native Americans were massacred by invaders and covered up the entire crime by forgetting what happened. I might not be the most beloved and respected Choctaw, at least Neelix defended his position and the memories of what happened. The Massacre of the Nueces River, where Confederate soldiers slaughtered German Unionists fleeing to Mexico in cold blood for not being conscripted into the Confederacy. “””” After the cessation of hostilities in 1865, Germans emerged as some of the most exuberant supporters of the United States' victory.[37] The German-language Treue der Union Monument (loyalty to the Union), in Comfort, Texas, was dedicated on August 10, 1866, to commemorate those who died at the 1862 Nueces massacre. Except for those drowned in the Rio Grande, the remains of the deceased are buried at the monument's site.[38] It was the only Unionist monument dedicated by locals in the territory formerly controlled by the Confederacy.[37]””””

[@kbanghart]

So, build one.

[@benyseus6325]

“Kathryn”???????????

[@damenwhelan3236]

1:56 No. We dont lesrn by denying what happened. What happened was horrible. It was wrong. It shouldnt have happeend. Denying it is to condine it. We look into the face of evil not in defiance of evil, but in contemplation and so we may recognise evil.

[@Tommy92gunner]

Not how that works, you don't force the trauma's of some nobody, let alone some irrelevant and non existent civilization, all you're doing is trauma dumping, you keep your tragedies to or w/e story you drum up to yourself, you don't learn from forcing it on others. You also don't get to cast judgement for having the common sense to ignore what is not your problem, don't make it other's problem, that's not cOndOniNg iT, but since liberals don't have the braincells to understand this fact, let me say this, all your kind does is cOndOne.

[@nicholasemjohnson47]

@@Tommy92gunner Nobody? Irrelevant? Would you be saying that if it were you?

[@johntracy72]

The inscription on this memorial should be on placards at every Holocaust and other genocide related memorials and museums.

[@bolt7153]

Ohht

[@qs5523]

If the massacred colonists were Palestine Voyager crew would No doubt be called anti Semitic It’s a shame people can watch this fiction and be moved. But not moved by actual suffering of the Palestinians.

[@danjackson2848]

Who invited you

[@qs5523]

@@danjackson2848 your comment makes no sense

[@jackdorseysdisappointedfather]

You dont like it? Move.🤷‍♂️

[@keith_dixon]

People are only outraged when the people dying and suffering are white.

[@mr_h831]

Star trek making modern arguments before modern arguments even appeared. There's a reason confederate memorials exist, it's about remembering the shit they did so we dont repeat it.

[@Pfisiar22]

except the vast majority of them were constructed long after most confederate war veterans were dead. And even fucking Jefferson Davis stated there should be no grand monument. The confederate monuments largely existed to perpetrate a rewriting of history. A propaganda coup to make people think that the war wasn't about slavery when it was about slavery all a long. Read the confederate constitution and note how many times it mentions slavery. Read every single proposal for secession and see how often they mention slavery. No, it was always about slavery and the confederate monutes were largely an attempt by a Klan-controlled South to rewrite history an further the 'lost cause' myth.

[@zzmoonz]

most of those weren't made shortly after and were made during the civil rights movement, not remotely analogous to a massacre monument morning a massacre. those statues in the context of this episode would be dreams where all the soldiers are cool and justified edit: yt was buggin I didn't see someone already said it better in the reply above

[@Tommy92gunner]

History is a lie, we are doomed to repeat it because humanity is a failed species, everyone entitled to be above everyone else, no one is innocent, wars will continue even after the last human falls.