The Tleilaxu Kwisatz Haderach -- Desmond Hart | Dune Prophecy Theory

[@NerdCookies]

Thanks for watching! If you enjoyed the video, be sure to leave a LIKE! To further support the channel you can join my Patreon for exclusive content and perks! www.patreon.com/nerdcookies

[@chrisw.5138]

Great Analysis, thanks for that! The producers of the show obviously want to keep us guessing, and knowing the fandom out there, they obviously made it extra ambiguous. I hope the reveal will not disappoint though, and keep true to Frank Herbert's overall creation and timeline. I think this show is the origin story of the sisterhood's prophecy of the Kwisatz Haderach, not some vague premonitions in the current time. How else could they be motivated to go on for millennia otherwise?

[@SlimRhyno]

Awesome video. This is the kind of stuff that keeps me hooked 🤓

[@ergoleon2970]

Are you American?

[@SlimRhyno]

@@ergoleon2970 Were you asking me?

[@simonb4689]

The BGs knew they were close to the KH. They actually thought it was going to be the son bien if the daughter of Duke Leto (who never was because Jessica made a boy, Paul), and FR Harkonnen

[@SciHeartJourney]

I read The Butlerian Jihad and The Machine Crusades. The ability to burn a human body is a telepathic skill developed by Zufia Cenva. That's how they were able to destroy the Cymeks. It had the unfortunate side effect of being a Kamakazi weapon; the sorcereress died from the energy burst. Norma Cenva was the daughter of Zufia. She surpassed her mother in EVERY way! She was the first to master the power. Instead of destroying her, it transformed her into her ideal self. She's the one that invented the mathematics of folding space.

[@BobKnight-mm2ze]

Man, it's been about 20 years, but I think I read all that too. Or rather I think I took the audio CD's out of the library for some long rides I had to do.

[@AK-vr8el]

This makes more sense than most. Especially since every time Desmond Hart uses his powers, it seems to take a physical and mental toll on him.

[@rev68]

I'm actually halfway thru the Machine Crusades right now (after going books 1-8, then the 3 house books). I'm guessing I'll be very disappointed with this adaptation if I watch it.

[@chrisphillips5682]

@@rev68 Ive read all of them, and the show isnt disappointing. It's actually rad to understand whats going on before the show spells it out to the rest of the crowd! siyanoq!

[@gmcmurr15]

Nice catch.

[@adrianmcmahon5731]

I think it's possible he might be an early face dancer using Ixian or pre Butlerian Jihad banned technology to augment his capabilities. I can't see how he could be a Tielaxau Kwisach Haderach this early on in the timeline. I do like the idea his presence spurs the Bene Gesserit to realise they need more than just to manipulate and gain power behind the scenes and becomes the catalyst for a wider breeding programme.

[@sonnyblue6918]

I also am on this path of thought, I don't think it is the Kwisach situation, but I do think the Tielaxau are involved. We didn't get much of them in the movies, and this would be a great way to get their story going, and eventually on path for them to find out about the breeding program and starting their "own"

[@dougjones3305]

It's definitely my ex gfs dad. That mf knows everything and can burn you from the inside out. Despite his daughter being my ex I'm still marrying her out of fear

[@lordlatch]

That actor basically played the same character in "Raised by Wolves" The wayward alternate messiah

[@GTA_6_Clips]

man that was such a good show. Practically cried when it was cancelled

[@aenea22980]

He seems to play the same character again and again, crazy religious zealot. Even in Vikings he was very similar.

[@GTA_6_Clips]

@@aenea22980 blame the casting directors

[@Gramsci]

He even looks the same.

[@shannondavis3686]

@@aenea22980you obviously misunderstood his role in Vikings. He wasn’t the religious zealot. He used religion to his benefit, while not knowing who or what to believe. He used “The gods” to manipulate his people, and his knowledge of Christianity to manipulate The Christian Angles, Saxons, and Franks. He was meant to be the bridge between both worlds. Not a zealot. That would be Floki, and Bishop Heahmund.

[@juliaatkinson4012]

Hart's ability to burn his victims from within reminds me of the sandworms' internal fire.

[@citizenVader]

Or is Travis using abilities from raised by wolves 😂

[@blech71]

Good point/take!

[@mnomadvfx]

That's not how that works. The former is some kind of psychic ability. The latter is a biochemical process of the sandworm physiology. Completely false equivalency.

[@dafewger]

​@@mnomadvfxsymbolism?

[@Nightcall.]

@@mnomadvfx their comment said that Hart’s ability reminds them of the sandworm’s internal fire, not that they have the same mechanism. at least use basic reading comprehension if you’re going to nitpick

[@oeckstei]

Dune Messiah did mention the Tleialx tried to make a Kwisatz of their own so not out of the realm of responsibility.

[@SxWerks]

The picture of Desmond gives it away. He has a scar around his right eye. The eye is mechanical. He holds his hand up to that side of his face when wielding his power. He’s a gola with an implant.

[@CommonSenseUncut]

Yeah but it’s very possible he is a creation of the god emperor himself to sow the seeds for his eventual birth and also prevent technology that could exterminate humanity from existing. He likely doesn’t come from any special bloodline and we will find that out in this upcoming episode; and the fact he deteriorates from the inside could indicate he isn’t physically capable of using his powers without deteriorating. He could basically be Leto/paul passing his powers to him as a vessel and they could’ve been connected by the sandworms inherent biology; rather than Leto or Desmond’s human bloodlines. Since he isn’t physically prepared to be the KH and isn’t meant to be; but his existence is likely what will lead the benes to decide they need to create the Kwisatz haderach in the first place. They’re being led to create Paul by Paul/leto. It’s pretty obvious he’s behind all of it

[@abrahamames911]

Taking an eye in exchange for insight/wisdom is a throwback to Odin. No wonder they cast Travis Fimmel from Vikings.

[@damouze]

The first things that came to my mind with regards to Desmon Hart were indeed a Tleilaxu Master or Face Dancer, an early Kwisatz Haderach of sorts, but then I realized there is one other faction that, though seemingly defeated, is still around, namely Omnius and the other Thinking Machines. His whole air screamed Erasmus to me, whose capabilities would definitely include burning people from the inside out. So for now, I'm convinced he is the robot Erasmus.

[@eaglesclaws8]

one version of him. lol

[@js4266]

I agree; at this stage it would make more sense if the thinking machines were guiding Hart rather than the Bene Tleilax. Hart could also be linked to Leto II, considering the God-Emperor's far reaching prescient powers

[@haplozetetic9519]

I'm beginning to think you may have the right idea, but I don't think he actually is Erasmus. He could be the original or a clone tortured and modified by Erasmus or someone else, possibly from House Richese or House Vernius. I'm leaning toward Richese.

[@js4266]

@@haplozetetic9519 We shall see. It's interesting to speculate. The God-Emperor theory could work (considering Hart's link to Arrakis, the fact that he was swallowed by a shai-hulud (maybe not litterally but symbolically) and Leto's degree of prescience) but I'm not ruling out the thinking machines theory. I don't think he is Erasmus either but he could be an artificial being controlled by him or an enhanced human close to him, similar to Gilbertus Albans. Food for thought.

[@xcfjdyrkdtulkgfilhu]

@@haplozetetic9519 Why would House Richese's pawn char-broil their heir apparent?

[@FloCatone]

The producers made very good choice of having Travis Fimmel plays his part very well . He is an amazing actor and is a man that is so sexy and has a sexiest blue eyes I’ve ever seen.

[@alpacamale2909]

Sol is helping him

[@ComradeCommissarYuri]

He got grabbed from raised by wolves and dumped in this universe 😂

[@scottmorgan5212]

That explains the ending!

[@CaravanseraiSouthValley]

Fan-TASTIC reference. Another good series, albeit VERY different too. Dude plays crazy TOO well.

[@ecbrown6151]

Appropriate seeing as he basically plays the same character, Season 1 of Raised by Wolves was really awesome.

[@elsigma4_h3re71]

They should have brought mother into this series too, the actress was so expressive

[@djolds1]

GOOD catch about "a path too short" ~= "Shortening of the way." Before you mentioned that I was going strong for Desmond being a proto-Ghola.

[@michaelpipkin9942]

Remember the prophecy---- Born twice as nice, With sugar and spice. ITS A RECIPE

[@OCTOSCUT]

LETS FUCKING BAKE!

[@michaelpipkin9942]

@OCTOSCUT Ingredients: 1. Two dusty shrooms baked by Dune's two moons. 2. A germ-free magic turd-worm in its 3rd term with no water burns.

[@michaelpipkin9942]

@OCTOSCUT All mixed with blue albatross cooked in a Truth Sayer's box. Let's thank Shai Hulud while we try this food.

[@CaravanseraiSouthValley]

This thread got me thinking of Julia Childs.

[@OCTOSCUT]

@@michaelpipkin9942 I DOTH CONCURZ!!!!!

[@parkera0430]

I wish you’d been able to talk about this more on the Deep Dive! I love Quinn and Shift, but they need to chill and let you jump into the conversation more often

[@AHomelessDorito]

Quinn is super nice about letting people talk you gotta be overthinking this

[@ooze4318]

On the original 6 person podcast she brought up these ideas. It was other youtubers who made fun - calling it game of thrones season 8 type theory. But Quinn and Shift were fine about it.

[@JohnSmith-t7r1c]

I can't watch those deep dives ,I love Quinn and Nerd Cookies but Alt Shill X drives me crazy. He was mass banning people from his channel for criticizing HotD season 2 writing.

[@griffiththechad9483]

@@JohnSmith-t7r1cI get your annoyance but technically its not him who’s doing the banning. He has an annoying mod who bans for even saying names from the books.

[@JohnSmith-t7r1c]

@griffiththechad9483 Season 2 of House of the Dragon had 3 writers from The Acolyte. The dialogue was atrocious The pacing too. Sapochnik left as showrunner. Yaitaines was not a producer. It was a steep drop off of season 1, which I loved. I used to love Alt Shift X but you have to be a bit weary when studios like Amazon and such pay someone like him.

[@barvelo26]

I like Quinn's idea of Desmond being a Ghola.

[@yanassi]

Desmond returned from his incident with the worm, with newfound powers as was prophecized “twice born, once in blood, once in spice”. I suspect lydia will return from her coma, but will it come with new found powers also. Could she or desmond be the revenant? If so, how will she be “born in spice” to complete the prophecy?

[@ALTRON3]

This guy is the most interesting and lively character in this show. Also. Everyone is a murderous villain.

[@ericmatteson8888]

Dortea is the revenant mentioned in the prophecy spoken during the Agony. She will act against the Sisterhood's leadership through Lila as an abomination (like we saw during the Agony). I think that Tula carried Lila to term after some kind of implantation - after Dortea's death (ths sisters do some sick things to maintain powerful bloodlines, and she keeps refering to herself as Lila's mother). This is also the only way the image of Dortea in Lila's other memory could possibly have direct knowledge of her own death at Valya's hands/voice.

[@TheTimeshadows]

Your continuing coverage is appreciated.

[@michaelnextdoor8726]

He's had some kind of spice awakening. Like the inner parts of a worm to burn people from the inside out.

[@frinkleboop9963]

Also I am convinced it’s nano tech that lets him do that.

[@carloscrecelius9597]

"Thou shalt not create a machine in the image of man."

[@TitoVespasianus]

Where was the existence of nano tech mentioned?

[@MagicManRetunz]

@@TitoVespasianus the existance of the butlerian jihad, or the machine war. its only 120 years behind them, and the technological remains could have been hidden away or just simply 'lost' and someone found it and gave it to desmond

[@haplozetetic9519]

@@TitoVespasianus It may never have appeared in Dune, but only because it wasn't much of an idea when it was written. It would, however, be reasonable that Frank Herbert would have used the idea if he had lived longer. I think it is well within reason to have nanotech in the show, even if they haven't mentioned it yet. Besides, it would be an interesting twist to keep it unknown for a while to increase suspense and raise questions for nerds like us.

[@Jonathonson]

@@TitoVespasianus they're joking. They're making fun of how nano tech is used in some sci-fi work as a lazy way for writers to come up with things.

[@dad7130]

The Tlielaxu did not develope wakening of the old memories of gholas until the time of Paul Muad'ib.

[@TantheMan1995]

If Hart really is a Tleilaxu Kwisatz Haderach then that would be an awesome way to give the Bene Gesserit the idea to manipulate bloodlines through the millennia to produce the KH rather than grow one in an Axolotl Tank, I think there’s also the possibility he’s an Ixian artificial being of some manner, the KH we know of in the lore can’t burn people from the inside out, also when he is using that power some kind of metallic sound accompanies it. He could also even be an agent of Omnious if they are going with the expanded universe stuff.

[@ArrakisCentral]

Yeah, that riddle at the Ep2 is starting to convince me that he could be a Ghola.

[@lawrencereid2767]

Great work as always ❤

[@zakpaine]

Although I came to enjoy this show more for the possibilities future seasons could deliver, I think I like your videos about it even more. I really hope they clean up the writers room for season 2

[@markus9998]

After the recent episode and the repeated mentioning of Vorian Atreides without ever showing him, and already mentioning him in episode 2, i think Desmond Hart is Vorian Atreides, wo received machine treatment. It is still unclear, but at least the episode did not mention one time that Valya met Vorian directly (opposite to the books). And from the books, we know that Vorian reappeared over the centuries as diffrent characters.

[@JarvisCosric885]

That is definitely possible. An alternate possibility is that he’s the secret child of Tula and Orry Atreides. But hey, he could also be a ghola or an early Version of the Kwizatz Haderach. But hey, if he is Vorian Atreides, that would be so bad ass

[@michaelpipkin9942]

He put flammable detergent in their clothes. One fart, you're med-well done!

[@ecbrown6151]

My brain was going to the same place, glad to see this video pop up. I thought the show really turned a corner with the last episode and now has my attention.

[@theanc316ientone]

You have excellent analyzing skills.

[@track1949]

Yep! Quinn( Ideas) and Elaine are terrific ❤

[@ericmatteson8888]

like a mentat? they seem strangely absent from the storyline. . .right?

[@S14N9LS]

I think he is most likely a red herring. The prophecy is obviously very important to the premise of the show (it's in the title, after all), but clearly the prophecy could apply to multiple characters. Desmond and Paul are the two obvious candidates but the show seems to also point to Sister Lila (sp) - assuming she'll be reborn in the spice vapor. This, however, is another red herring (after a fashion) - while the body of Lila may reawaken, I believe she will only be a vessel for the return of Dorotea (making Lila effectively the first abomination and possibly the catalyst for future possession, thus creating abomination). I'm pretty sure that either Dorotea is the true subject of the prophecy (she actually dictated the prophecy to Lila in the first place) or the prophecy is meant to apply to multiple characters equally. Dorotea's death scene focused quite heavily on the blood streaming into the pool or whatever at the temple - I believe this was our first clue. The writers are giving us hints while also trying to throw us off the trail.

[@PeppermintTeaTime]

Yeah - that prophecy isn’t about Desmond, it’s about the consequences of having Lila experience the Agony without being ready and Tula’s misuse of spice to try and heal her.

[@cacogenicist]

Another long-shot hypothesis: he's some sort of bio-puppet of the Machines, who are plotting to take out the witches and return.

[@TheErsdot]

Great recap of the theories and what we have been shown so far. I have an idea that the writers are exploiting gaps in the Herbert books and will eventually make him a Tleilaxu KH. I do think your explanation of how DH could have survived the sandwort attack is interesting and one I had not considered before.

[@dravendarkmatter]

I think it's interesting, too, that he specifically said they took his eyes...which reminds me of what happens to Paul when he is blinded and able to use his prescience to navigate. He may be fitted with a Tleilaxu eye (or early version of it).

[@denniskristos3800]

In future, please refer to the Sisterhood when you're talking about their Order. They haven't become the Bene Gesserit this early in the timeline, but they are their precursors.

[@jayk9068]

Even though we found out it's nano tech, it still seems like he's early/proto-KH like said here. His memories bleeding into all the sisters' dreams and not the other way around also fits with how the KH can dictate the path in a way they can't due to having limited genetic memory relative to him. Seems like they could've condensed the warning label on their breeding program to "Don't breed Atredies and Harkonnen until ready for Arifel!" Now with the reveal that Erasmus or Vorian is behind the eye surgery, seems like that'll be important. Especially given the former's interest in human experiments and Tula being on a collision course to becoming the narrative device for all this exposition to the audience. Since the show (like the books Erasmus is from) like overexplanations lol

[@leontanbg]

I don't think we will see the Bene Tleilax & The Spacing Guild, at least not in depth & detail, in this series because it's Denis Villeneuve who will get to shape these first in Messiah. So I doubt Hart is connected to the Tleilaxu. But I believe his existence will mean such a man with powers beyond the BG's control could emerge randomly, and lead the BG to embark on creating their Kwisatz Haderach.

[@Bazmodius]

The show takes place 10,000 years before Dune. I don’t think it would be out of the question for them to look different in the show vs the movie. I mean, look at Salusa Secundus! It’s still a lush, green paradise planet. By the time of Dune it’s a blasted wasteland. A lot can change in 10,000 years.

[@treydixon5399]

Loved the lost eye references. Remember that Odin traded his eye for the ability to see more. But to the central issues of DH as a character, I go back to when GHM tests Paul. Paul: the others, they tried and failed. GHM: they tried and died. We all thought that means they didn't make it past the Gom Jabbar. It could be that they had some impressive specimens over the millennia, specimens that made it pretty far, just failed later.

[@SweetandFullofGrace]

No they took the water of life and died, the test is just to see the resolve as humans. Gom Jabbar is the poison needle.

[@beberivera7011]

the fear of the Gom Jabar is valid in that if you fail the test you're pricked with the needle and dealt a lethal neurotoxin. A non human doesn''t get past the Gom Jabar.

[@drewdevlin9192]

they died after taking the water of life, not by gom jabbar

[@blacktronpavel]

Excellent video. I’m actually wondering if Hart is actually an original or natural evolutionary phenomenon more closely related to the Spice itself on DUNE. It could be that he is a “proto” Kwisatz Haderach, and possibly the inspiration for the Sisterhood to create their own version they could control. I think fate, destiny and human evolution trying to create a Messianic superbeing itself introduces an element of super-natural to the lore. With regard to his powers, I’m reminded of 1984’s line by Paul Atreides “Some thoughts have a certain sound, that being the equivalent to a form. Through sound and motion, you will be able to paralyze nerves, shatter bones, set fires, suffocate an enemy or burst his organs.” Sound familiar? Either way, I think it’s fascinating. So far so good. I’m looking forward to tonight’s episode.

[@blacktronpavel]

@@dffndjdjdI’m looking forward to the explanation and expansion of the lore!

[@tedball8677]

I lean toward the idea of Hart as a Face Dancer more than a ghola Kwisatz Haderach 1.0 version. As you pointed out, a "successful" ghola was only achieved 10,000 years later in the Dune Messiah (book). Still, it is intriguing. I'm tuning in the the show to find out. TL;DR It's possible Desmond Hart is a creature/creation of the Tleilaxu if he died as anyone would in the desert facing a Maker. Perhaps he will end up being an organic accident (?) -- buried with a bunch of sandtrout, somehow getting a dose of spice (or Water of Life) -- not dying from that -- and popping out of the sand ready to go as a turbocharged loyal Corrino soldier. Eh... that sounds shaky (edit - well, even shakier I should say) once I write it down, so, hell. I don't know. . Pivoting - when the young Sisterhood acolyte took the Rakkah poison to try to get in touch with her ancestral line, the acolytes watching from above began speaking what seems like an early version of the Litany of Fear. It wasn't _the_ Litany, just something like it. When Valya used the Voice on Hart and he resisted it, she looked surprised (even frightened). I had the stray thought that Valya's experience with Hart right then could bring about the Litany of Fear as Valya adjusts to the reality that this guy Hart is Voice-proof. . Question - at this point, Valya is the only one with the Voice AFAIK. I don't recall her telling Tula about it or anyone else. Did I miss something? [edit] Just watched ep. 3. Valya is the only one we've seen use the voice. Yet in a flashback scene she used it on two of her Sisters & they asked her to teach them. Different flashback, she used it on her mother before leaving to join the Sisterhood. So Valya has it; has used in her early sisterhood days and believes it can be taught. We still don't know jack about the origin of Hart's power. Oh, and Harkonnens are still Harkonnens, even if they look like the sweet younger sibling.

[@SlimRhyno]

Awesome video. This is the kind of stuff that keeps me hooked 🤓

[@NerdCookies]

Glad you enjoyed it! 😊

[@sweepingtime]

There is potentially another twice born being- the sister who failed the Agony and whose genetic memory of the reverend mother who was murdered will likely want to take revenge on Valya and the Bene Gesserit. After getting to know Paul Atreides I feel that the kwisatch haderach are truly godlike beings while Desmond just seems quite limited. He has one deadly trick while each Bene Gesserit has numerous skills and he seems to struggle to overcome the Voice, while Paul simply shrugs it off after he ascends.

[@wk8219]

What we don’t know so far is what’s the witch hunter’s end game is. Yes, he’s fighting against the Bene Gesserit, but is he trying to destroy the whole order? Or is he attempting to pull them away from the path of taking direct power? Putting a Bene Gesserit on the imperial throne goes against what we know of their ideals from the main six books. It is my understanding that the order works to not bring too much focus on the true extent of their influence and not displaying the full extent of their powers. Putting a Bene Gesserit on the throne might disrupt the creation of the Kwisatz Haderach as much as the order being destroyed. In other words is the witch hunter fighting to create the Golden Path or is he fighting to bring about Arafel?

[@bryantsalavarrieta3002]

Great breakdown & attention to detail

[@anydaynow01]

Would be interesting if he was a Tleilaxu product, or even a product of Erasmus' programs considering his interest in human experiments.

[@michaelday6359]

Absolutely brilliant. The pre-spice mass theory is an excellent one!

[@KentoLeoDragon]

I don't think he's Tleilaxu. I'm not sure they'll be mentioned at all. He's a form of early KH and the worms and spice is part of a mystical plan set in motion or predestined perhaps long ago, by whoever made/found the worms to begin with. He resisted the Voice because he already knew she was going to try it. I don't know if he's precient himself or channeling some foreknowledge contained in the worms themselves. Didn't Leto sort of leave a bit of himself in the worms after he died? Maybe it's a mystical divine "this has all happened before" kind of thing and the worms already contain knowledge left within them from an earlier cycle of rebirth ect. I kind of hope they don't go full Ron Moore.

[@mjamitche5245]

I'm enjoying the show. I liked this episode better than the first two, which I thought were good. I'm so glad you're enjoying theorizing about the show. A few other Dune nerds don't like the show and that's disappointing to me as a non-book reader. I hope there's a lot of interest so that we can keep getting new Dune content in both tv and movies.

[@yerbamate2001]

Dune nerds are fucking non-conformists, no matter if the content is well taken care of (like in the movies) they will always be crying on twitter when something is adapted to the screen, they don't analyze the material in depth, not even from a cinematographic point of view, it's sad the life of a purist.

[@eastbrecht]

Read the books they are so much better without modern compromises.

[@brianjenkins3133]

Who generated and how did the hologram Desmond Hart, shows The Emperor, come to be? This detail anchors either the myth of the Worm incident (Death/Rebirth) or disguises the reality of exactly who we think we know as Desmond Hart in each episode. This Desmond being has a technology of thought control prior to the Sisterhood evolving and developing the Weirding Way but after Norma Cenvas' incredible mental breakthroughs in Folding Space. We also know from the emperors' reports, the real soldier Desmond Hart has been on at least 12 tours on Arakis and likely has been exposed to the spice, but he shows no apparent physical effects of the "Bright Blue Eye"? This latest version of Desmond is using a technology that can control a human being's pain level via what we assume is his thought process, and he demonstrates he has the means to force a person to self-incinerate even when the victim is off planet. This implies each human being has a unique brain pattern or signature and Desmond has the ability to mentally link to any human once he knows their signature. Whence it is likely he can record and store every person he meets, unique mental attributes. He has the ability to eliminate any human in his memory file. Did Desmond Hart develop this technology or was it learned, implanted in him via genetic memory file and or accompanied with an implanted machine device? He is seen as moving his head toward his right shoulder and presses his fingers on his right temple area when controlling humans. During a demonstration with the emperor, we note how Desmond can begin and stop at any time his control of Duke Ferdinand Richese pain. Desmond shows he can effectively and very efficiently stop the Sisterhood and stop the emperors' alliances by simply assassinating key players. Desmond has acquired or has been programmed with relevant information to implement a very strategic battle plan. My bias, Desmond acts as a high technology soldier and influencer at the behest of hidden designers or an order who can see a future, they can control the outcome of.

[@carolynallisee2463]

There was a slight error in this video. The pre-spice mass isn't made up of sandtrout. The pre-spice mass is a fungus type growth that comes from sandtrout excretions. This fungoid growth is brought up to the surface, where sunlight and oxygen change it into spice.

[@denniskristos3800]

The fact that Desmond Hart referred to ". . .the gods. . ." leads me to believe he is some ilk of Bene Tlelaxiu creation. The Tlelaxiu have a polytheist religion which they practice and considering the Imperium under Javicco's rule and the Sisterhood evidently hold humanist beliefs at their core.

[@SweetandFullofGrace]

They LITERALLY have a monotheist religion, people read the BOOKS. At least encyclopedia. Its wild how people speculate Dune universe and dont even know the basic things.

[@Chuckf66]

At least we know what happened to Marcus after he stopped floating upside down in Raised By Wolves.

[@michaelpipkin9942]

Anyone notice his face twitching like he's trying to hold back pain?

[@AK-vr8el]

I think Hart basically overdosed on spice. The Sisterhood is still very young only about 130 years old and have yet to realize the full potential of the spice. I believe Lila will become the tool to destroy Hart. Lila is one born twice. As I think the spice gas will revive her.

[@daveshonk7702]

The Voice at this point in the timeline was a talent/ability only Valya had, unknown to the other sisters…hence their confusion as to why the other Reverend Mother slashed her own throat. Given that, Desmond Hart could not have been trained against the power of the Voice, or even known about it, as you suggest.

[@robadamson1]

Interesting information: Scytale=SKI-ta-lee: a cylindrical translation device allowing for number/letter substitution codes. The same spelling as the Tleilaxu face dancer from Dune Messiah. Also much like his role in awakening the Duncan personality and showing Paul and his children an alternative path.

[@DinerLingo]

I think it’s important to keep in mind this is set within Denis Villeneuve’s Dune universe & the Tleilaxu aren’t mentioned in any of the films (so far). This has me wondering if they’re using the series as a way of 1) introducing them now as a way of explaining the ghola Hayt in Messiah & in turn 2) giving us an explanation as to why we don’t see them in the first two films. I don’t think he’s superhuman in the K.H. sense. I think he’s immune to the voice due to tech enhancements. My thinking is that the discovery of finding out Hart isn’t traditionally human (either a ghola or Face Dancer) combined w nanotechnology or other pre-Bulterian technology (or even poison from his fingertips) as the cause of the burning will cause the Landsraad to banish them & they’ll spend those millennia in isolation perfecting all their creations, re-emerging w their gift of Hayt. It’s not too dissimilar from the books & explains why they haven’t been seen yet in the films.

[@gmcmurr15]

After this last episode, "potential spoilers for the show" It's Doritea coming back in the body of Lila. They think they bring back Lila but it's not her. She may be the reckoning that is coming. For some reason I feel like Desmond is some sort of misdirect.

[@Telenaus]

i was thinking paul, or the god emperor was using him as a puppet to get the bennegeserit to focus on things. but its interesting to see others point of view

[@Telenaus]

@@dffndjdjd if they can be taken over by "abominations" why not by the Kwisatz haderach, it would work both way or at least id think that way, and as long lived as leto2 was he'd need something to do and what better way to strengthen oneself & weaken an enemy.

[@ArturoArmada]

What if he is a Prophet from the God Emperor Leto II, sent to the past?

[@SuperParadox42]

I COMPLETELY forgot about the Tlielaxu KH. That is a VERY cool idea to bring up, in relation to this guy! Even if he is an early version rather than the "final" one that caused them to abandon the idea, it's still a "deep cut" to the original books, and one that's NEVER been referred to in any screen version of Dune prior to this. 👍 I can DEFINITELY see the showrunners trying to make something of that- and since the Tlielaxu are explicitly GENETIC MANIPULATORS (that is literally their whole focus as a society), they wouldn't need to run a millenia-long breeding program to get one! They could just insert the right genes (once they figure out what's needed) and Go To Town.

[@grumpslabastard7415]

Some thoughts with some retconning of the lore: Could be the Tleilaxu started Face Dancer program really early. Perhaps developed the tactile memory absorption ability early on, but mothballed it due to fear these new FDs could not be controlled by the Masters. Not until late into the Tyrant’s reign were these advanced FDs released in the Tleilaxu’s version of a Scattering. Desmond Hart might be a prototype advanced FD that has absorbed the persona of a Master

[@Marcelo83uk]

Love all the possibilities and have absolutely no clue what Desmonds role is going to be!

[@ComradeCommissarYuri]

I still see it as Desmond was only acting the part of taking out his blade and putting it to his neck before refusing If he just outright refused or was able to resist that would shock her yes But by acting out her first two voice commands he leave her doubting her voice

[@shanenolan5625]

Thanks Elaine

[@ihossi22]

I f*cking love your channel.

[@TricksterDaemon-jw9hi]

I think that his burning power is a relic from the Machines, and is done somehow through nanites.

[@SciHeartJourney]

There was a moment when he didn't realize if he was going to die or NOT. When he was holding that knife to his own throat he looked concerned to me. Then he didn't care to take revenge on her for trying to kill him. He has a level of self control that few people possess. I think he's a Ghola. He's a Manchurian Candidate! He doesn't realize himself that he's being controlled.

[@JustinStoneDiaz]

Sticking with the books he’s an altered Ghoula pretty obvious

[@Ben610]

I’m thinking it’s a mix of spice powers and tech to help control and amplify it.

[@oscarpretell5738]

Maybe he is what makes that place where the Bene Gesserit dare not look terrifying.

[@adamwhite9330]

This better not be another JJ Abrams style empty mystery box.

[@Gfddyjhfy00]

I feel that it's just a higher power at work and the worm gave him powers to stop the breeding program and them creating the kwzact however you spell ts lol

[@Stitchman3875]

Maybe he was taken by the Worm and instead of being digested, he drank the water of life? My wild guess would be that Desmond was a source of idea of the prophecy. Like after being observed, the Sisterhood got the idea of their KH. Given who became the Final K.H. because of constantly being cloned, it makes sense that Hart is the catalyst of the BG prophecy. He may also be the reason for “The place they cannot look.”

[@Taggartize]

Interesting

[@Taggartize]

'On a path too short' kwisatz haderach is shortening of the way. Maybe he was a prototype or inspirational iteration of the kwisatz haderach

[@Stitchman3875]

@@Taggartize could be. This is just speculation at this point.

[@SweetandFullofGrace]

You guys have some weird headcanon, you do know how the physiology of the worms work? At least you guys should know by know what is water of life and how is it extracted, nobody apparently reads the books or even watch movies.

[@CloroxBleach-qy7vy]

@@SweetandFullofGracewhy don’t you enlighten them instead of acting like your siting on a high horse.

[@emekamonyei2158]

If the tleilaxu kwisatz killed himself then the words of the prophesy "on a journey too short" still adds up

[@coolwinterstorm5803]

I thought he was the genesis for the idea of the sisterhood to get their own KH

[@warpdriveby]

I like a ton of things youve said but looking at him as a copy of a being that the Bene Gesserit haven't come up with their own term for doesn't make a lot of sense, unless they're completely rewriting the basis of the sisterhood. That idea is as obviously incorrect as your speculation that he INSPIRES aspects of the breeding program is BRILLIANT!

[@keithhernandez7537]

Yes! Ur the first to hit on what I’ve been thinking. BT gholas didn’t even have real eyes BT Paul. They were metal. And I believe Hayte was the first they recovered past life memories in by trauma. I’m kinda feeling maybe Desmond could be a product of the Guild? Who else has a strong interest in spice and would wanna take the BG out or weaken? Maybe mentats? But the stakes are higher w the Guild.

[@adamwhite9330]

I always thought the BT just replaced Hayt's eyes for the lulz. Because they're a bit wacky.

[@youtubechannel5429]

I wouldn’t call him eccentric. I would rather call him confused and out of it. He seems like he’s being controlled remotely by someone or something else

[@vincentgiasson7551]

Ever since Star Trek Discovery story line on Spock long gone adoptive sister (Spoiler Alert ----- He has a sister but nobody talk about her in the other Star Trek series because she's gone 700 years in the future on a secret mission). I'm a bit worry with prequels that make significant modifications to the canon and lore of a beloved fictional universe. Hopefully, the peoples in charge of Dune Prophecy will have a better way of explaining Desmond Hart existence, powers and his absence from the Dune recorded history!!!

[@scottmorgan5212]

You stole my comment lol. I have the same concern there is no way Paul or Leto II didn't know about Hart for it to appear in one of the books. Or the Reverend Mother for that matter. Unless this show takes place in the Kelvin timeline....

[@32768hertz]

how do Tleilaxu know about Kwisatz Haderach?(in this new series time line and also in Paul/Frank Herbert time line). So far in the series not even Bene Gesserit know about Kwisatz Haderach (I think). Edited: also how do they know it supposed to be inportant? so inportant that they need to produce a ghola.

[@ComradeCommissarYuri]

I was taking this series to mean the bene gessirate realise that working from the shadows is more beneficial than having one of their own on the throne Plus also taking this man (or whatever he is) and making that an idea for a kwisatz haderach

[@Bazmodius]

The Tleilaxu would have had a different name for Kwisatz Haderach in their own language. And who is to say that the Tleilaxu didn’t foresee a chosen one before the Bene Gesserit?

[@zvorenergy]

In Kevin Anderson and Brian Herberts account of the Machine War, the latent gifts lurking in Norma Cenvas DNA are ripped open by Machine inflicted trauma. Perhaps Desmond Hart had similar gifts, ripped open by the trauma of being worm food, and the worm, sensing this, spit him out.

[@JustanotherDude0114]

You showed a still shot of Hart with three ring like things on his fingers. They looked very detailed and could ABSOLUTELY be Ix technology that controls the burning processes. They are showing us one hand rubbing his jaw or temple but it could be the other hand is what's controlling his ability

[@SweetandFullofGrace]

So how did the Revenant Mother die?

[@henrymach]

For this theories to work we need know two things: are Goulas already a thing in this point of time? Are face dancers already a thing in this point of time? But I like it so far

[@jamesmaples1255]

The voice is still a brand new tool for the B.G. since she is the first one to learn it.

[@legion2k988]

"Men have tried..? Men have died. "

[@cjdebono8811]

The question is how does he know the BG powers and understand the ways of how they operate. He must have some type of presince to see farther

[@CantankerousDave]

6:38 - that’s the Litany Against Fear said differently.

[@axebeard6085]

My problem is that I just can not unsee the moment during Lila's Agony where she saw Dorotea's death FROM DOROTEA'S PERSPECTIVE. In the Dune lore, this can ONLY happen one way. Gholas are the only beings able to access memories of their original's death. To get those genetic memories, the cells MUST be harvested from a freshly deceased corpse. The Other Memories that the Sisterhood has access to are memories that end at the moment of conception (or birth. I'm in the process of moving, and my Dune books are in another state ATM, so I can't double check.) Alia's conversation with her Other Memory of Jessica in Children of Dune makes this VERY clear. If Lila is pulled out of her coma using spice, and she is possessed by an Other Memory of Dorotea's ghola, then I'll be leaning towards the hypothesis that the prophecy is warning about a possessed Lila, not Desmond.

[@axebeard6085]

@@dffndjdjd Although that is a possibility, There is no indication her daughter (if she had one) was anywhere near Dorotea when she died. All we do know is that Valya, Tula, Kasha, and Francesca were there. And each of them were part of Valya's faction.

[@SweetandFullofGrace]

@@dffndjdjd Well this is not "sisters can do", its basically 1 example of Reverend mothers doing alive, it which long way from a new acolyte. So no its not possible. Stop making headcanon for poor writing, its just that. Its shitty writers who think its "magic".

[@theronin9984]

If the Bene T.'s created a KH 10K years pre-Paul, given their adeptness at invention... There's no way they are not farther along by then in their research & development. Hart is resistant to the Voice, which is unique in Dune lore as even Paul initially succumbs to H.G.M. @their 1st mtg when ehe subjects him to the Gom Jabbar. It suggests to me that Hart isn't human. The language shift to placing a BG on the throne from our original understanding of them wanting to create a KH that they controlled is also curious. 🤔 As this is a totally new character, we dont know what the show runners are/were thinking. Oh yeah!!! Another curious NEW note, is Hart is the 1st "person" I know of able to utilize their "abilities" NOT in close proximity to the other affected person when Kasha (who is ostensibly light years away!!) Is burned inside out like the boy. Not sure where to begin with that thread!!🤔🤔🤣👍🏾

[@patrickdevlin4060]

Desmond was dancing with cbeems glittering in the dark near the tannhauser gate........ Oh wait

[@petermartin4142]

Here is how it unfolded. HBO cancelled a series called Raised by Wolves and decided that the actor who was under contract could jump to be a religious figure in the show..

[@BostonPowers]

Im still upset they canceled that show

[@anydaynow01]

@@BostonPowers Yeah, it took some weird turns that went over folks' heads since it required knowledge of certain mythologies. I really liked it though, it started getting into its stride when they canceled it like Exo Squad and Dark Matter were canceled once they got to the actual crux of the story.

[@tiltskillet7085]

It's felt off to me that the Reckoning prophecy seemed to point so blatantly at Hart. Even moreso after this last episode where Valya hears it once, and immediately makes the connection with no apparent second thought. I think it's in danger of feeling like very clumsy writing if it's not a red herring. Although I think there's some danger of that even if it turns out to be one too. I guess that's the big risk with prophecy rhymes.

[@kenis77]

Hopefully we'll get a peak into the Beni Tlelaxu's world soon. P.S : you should still do some videos in your old style with the sultry voice . 😊

[@ryannuhfer7427]

Here’s what I think. And it seems pretty obvious. The real guy was killed by the worm and the Tleilaxu took the opportunity to insert a face dancer. One with the abilities we’ve seen, which they gave him in order to gain the trust of the emperor.

[@ericopperhammer5151]

The sandworm’s internal fire wasn’t something that was constant, it was only present while the worm was moving. It was the worm’s mechanism for dissipating the extreme heat created by the friction between worm and sand

[@cristicorte]

I'm 💯 convinced that he's the first Kwisatz Haderach.

[@Kellethorn]

Plot twist: Desmon is an Atreides survivor of Tula's massacre.

[@RazvanMihaeanu]

"technically"... yes. 😇

[@craigwhitley1529]

I have to think he's either a face dancer or the Tlielaxu Kwisatz Haderach that is mentioned in the books. Duncan was the first ghola to regain all his memories and I don't think they would break that canon for the purposes of the show since that revelation plays an important part near the end of Dune.Messiah

[@MWMTEE]

Am i wrong or is there a robot who lives on a moon and has been controlling all events? Maybe he connected to him

[@chrisw.5138]

😂 as written?

[@MWMTEE]

@ i was getting mixed up with foundation ending 😂

[@outofmytr3317]

The Bene Tleilax and the Bene Gesserit are in many ways opposites of each other and thus natural enemies. This is played out many times in the books but sadly not in the movies. How cool would it be if this was the first conflict between the two groups?! So far he has shown that he can induce nightmares and self immolation, can lie without truthsayers being able to detect it and can overcome Voice. The last two could possibly be explained by him being someone elses puppet like a face dancer under direct master control. It has been years since i read the books but i dont recall face dancers being able to resist Voice? I am sure someone will know. Being able to lie is a function of controlling external indicators which a face dancer should be able to do (or simply being programmed with memories which he would belive to be real). The inducing of nightmares and self immolation could be achieved by clever microbiology which is the Tleilaxu strong suit. Bene Gesserit self awareness is at an early stage here. Only 3-4 generations back they were witches who blew themsleves up to kill thinking machines so it is reasonable to think that there are ways that toxins could be introduced into their bodies disguised as harmless molecules? Whatever the case, i am enjoying this prequel and am looking forward to the next episode.