DUNE Director Doubles Down on Bizarre Misconceptions in Defense of Controversial Changes

[@NerdCookies]

Thanks for watching! If you enjoyed the video, be sure to leave a LIKE! Consider joining my PATREON if you'd like to further support the channel & get access to exclusive content and perks! www.patreon.com/nerdcookies

[@tahnadana5435]

at least jodorowsky is up front with his changes, not pulling out BS for pretentious reasons

[@SK4M_Freal]

Thanks Elaine 💙

[@jmr_odysseus]

I really liked this investigative work and its conclusions on the intentions "forced" in a film by its director. That's why I would also like to talk about Alia, the sister born Reverend Mother. She is the actual the synthesis from both spiritual forces : Shaï-Ulud and Bene Gesserit. She does embody the supremely dark side that will engender Chaos. Herbert insists on the genetic permanence of each character. Alia is in fact haunted by her Harkonnen heritage, force of absolute Evil, already present in their mother.. Alia will be the inspiration for the God-Emperor who is not Paul but her son Leto 2 born of Shani... Leto 2 is the one who, having become immortal by his fusion with a worm, will create the galactic evil Jihad that will last several thousand years. On another level, the true Knight of the saga is not even mentioned by Villeneuve : Duncan Idaho. His role will be permanent in the Saga and this until the last volume: the House of Mothers where he survives as a clone renewed from generation to generation in order to accomplish the Great Final Work of the Benegesserit... or what? I'd really like to have your take on the large meaning of the Saga, which likely has no chance ever to be seen on screens.

[@mtverv]

Nerd Cookies Villeneuve only SAYS that’s why he changed Chani. The real reason is probably far more complex since Denis seems to be incredibly knowledgeable about the Dune mythos. Most Directors, especially of big projects, get a fair amount of interference from the Studio Execs in charge of looking over the film. Knowing the tendency of Hollywood recently to Race, Gender, Personality, and Orientation Swap characters no matter the Source Material it seems to me that Villeneuve focused all of this into one character. The character of Chani. In order to preserve the rest of the Vision of Herbert’s work he decided that Chani could go from a Elfin Faced and Red-Haired Scientist fully devoted to following Paul’s lead to a Zendaya cast, Fedaykin who challenges Paul at every turn only to abandon him at the end. Quite frankly it isn’t the worst choice he could have made

[@troffle]

@@mtverv 1) doesn't that mean that Villeneuve is lying to the media and the public? 2) Wasn't Kynes also gender/race swapped? Doesn't that mean you're wrong? 3) "isn't the worst choice he could have made" - "oh yes he could have made it worse". It's not Frank Herbert's story. This is garbage.

[@NameNotAChannel]

They left out the essential scene in their relationship, when Paul and Chani share Paul's visions of the future, during the spice-wine-enduced party. She saw her future with Paul, their child/ren, the lengths Paul would go to, to reduce the damage done from the events to come... this all sped up her falling in love with Paul. The other key aspects of Paul they left out: Her father, Liet, was also an off-worlder who became accepted as a Fremen leader. As you stated in this video, she was a spiritual leader of her people. This also helped lay the foundation of her accepting Paul. I'd go into more detail, with more quotes and such from the books, but KZbin likes to auto-delete good posts like that.

[@RobbieChance]

THIS. The change to Liet Kynes was so strange to me. It would've been the single thread that would have made Chani's character more believable in these films. It would explain her blatant skepticism and almost shunning of the old Fremen ways. The chapter with Liet Kynes being swallowed up by the planet is my absolute favorite part of Dune.

[@humbleopulence]

That was all in the leaked 2018 draft for Part One.... Then production started and Villeneuve, ofc, has final say and thought the movie was "too talky". Look for Dune leaked script 2018, read it.... And tell me we weren't robbed....

[@ukmediawarrior]

I totally agree, at no point in either movie did I believe Paul and Chani's romance, they had no chemistry at all. Chani was a bitch most of the time, or snarky and her not believing in Paul just made no sense considering how she is portrayed in the books. If Villeneuvre thought Chani was a background character in the book then so was Stilgar, or Thufir, or Gurney. I mean crap, even the Emperor hardly got a look in during the movies, less so than in the 1984 David Lynch version. We didn't see Villeneuve pushing the male background characters (other than Duncan who I loved in the book, but felt in the movies he got a bigger role just because Jason Momoa took the role), but he did the female ones. His reasons for character changes is obviously down to societies current trend of Wokeness.

[@johnbransby6231]

I do not like the change to Chani. In the book she understands why he had to marry the princess and supports him knowing she will be wife in name only. In the movie she acts like a spoiled brat running away when she does not get her away, it makes her seem weaker than the strong woman she was in the books.

[@ForgeMasterXXL]

And I think that Chani knowing that she would be the true ‘wife’ was all the more poignant because both her and Irulan knew it.

[@df4250]

@@ForgeMasterXXL That maybe the case, but the way it was portrayed in the movie leaves that very much up to interpretation.

[@eamonnholland5343]

@@ForgeMasterXXL It also mirrors the feelings and reasoning that Jessica and Paul's father shared, for why they never got married, even though Jessica was "wife" in all but title.

[@ltb1345]

In the books she acts like a mature and rational adult, but in the movie she acts like a teenager.

[@johnbransby6231]

@ totally agree, she was like a spoiled child in the movies

[@marknovak6498]

I agree. The director is wrong. I saw Frank Herbert lecture back in 1984 and he said he had the three books mapped out when he wrote the first book

[@TheVagabond627]

How do we know he didn’t mean the three books that make up the entire first novel? Dune, Muad’Dib, The Prophet? Especially considering Dune came in the form of magazine serials

[@gnomedigest]

Herbert said in an interview he wrote Paul to be as good a hero as he could. The cautionary tale is that no matter the hero all humans make mistakes or decisions with unexpected consequences. The caution is that even with the hero written as a great hero you have to be cautious. Villeneuve doesnt really understand a lot of the source material from what I have seen through the movies.

[@TheVagabond627]

@@gnomedigest can you cite that interview please?

[@544001]

BULLSHIT. Messiah was not planned

[@nationalsocialism3504]

That's a revision by Herbert

[@EbonKim]

Denis Villeneuve doesn't get the book(s). Kyle MacLachlan was an avid fan of the Dune books, and got the character right.

[@21palica]

Kyle was a great choice for Paul by Lynch, because he is so likable. They made movie and TV history together. We should thank our lucky stars we got the third season of "Twin Peaks", before Lynch's passing. His films and TV show had a profound impact on my life. Into the light, David!

[@playbookshowme484]

Chani's so dry in this movie that they can just write out Irulan and her contraceptives stopping Chani from having kids.

[@TheGavrael]

For real, the way she acted, I’d rather have Paul be with Irulan. At least she respects him.

[@technofilejr3401]

Exactly. Chani would be screaming about my body my choice.

[@serafaus]

Every actor did so well, Zendaya actually ruins the movie!

[@heavyhebrew]

@@serafaus Her and the actor playing Jessica. Jessica was never anxious, never feared.

[@grantwithers]

based and feminism pilled

[@thomriley1036]

To me, it didn't feel like Paul was interacting with the Chani from the books. It felt more like he was interacting with every character that Zendaya has ever played. I half-expected hear her say "Yes, my spider lord."

[@countfloydschillerhorrorth2090]

And Deni also kept having her "F You" expression that her offscreen attitude sometimes reaches.

[@shotty.]

this is 100% the vibe i got when watching both movies for the first time & on every single rewatch, she doesn’t even feel like a trusted or long time Fremen, & on screen is shown to really only be there for Paul. We see very little of Chani on arrakis in her own scenes or in scenes that feel natural between her & her people. She literally feels like Rue from Euphoria thrown into some sand dunes & forced to adapt, which she does through lack of dialogue & ‘the face’ lmao.

[@D3r3k2323]

It felt like he was interacting with a redditor

[@lordcrunk4790]

@@D3r3k2323 Reddit-Chani ... bwahahahahha, that's great!

[@serafaus]

Or yell at her single mother because she does not want to go to rehab.

[@jackinirons66]

He's completely changed Chani's story, which invalidates her relationship with Paul's believability. All I remember from Dune 2 was Chani's angry face, disbelief, and the feeling that her character as presented would never fall in love with Paul. Chani from the books was a force of nature, she was the grounding for Paul to not become lost in the power of being the Messiah. In the movie she was just annoying. And like others point out... she was a red head.

[@solarydays]

haha so true. movie Chani is dating her sworn enemy by heir facial expressions

[@AsttoScott]

She's just terrible at acting. Probably thinks she's the best actor on the planet too.

[@jackinirons66]

@@AsttoScott I agree, plank with a frowny face sharpied on it.

[@AsttoScott]

@jackinirons66 I wonder if she's the product of nepotism or not. I've never cared enough to look.

[@trevpilled]

@@AsttoScott You can criticize her acting all you like, however I fail to see where this hate for her personality lies.

[@TheIslingtongirl]

Yeah, I've only ever heard that Messiah was received differently and misunderstood. Chani was always meant the be the believer. It's what takes us into the relationship in Messiah. Her support was never weakness or shadow.

[@Slomoshun4u]

Reading comprehension must be hard for you. Nobody is saying that Chani wasn't a believer in the books, Villeneuve eve stated she was, he said he's changing that to better express that Paul isn't a hero. FFS everyone in the comments has no clue what they're talking about. Nerd Cookies is explaining the discrepancy but y'all still can't manage to understand what she's confused about.

[@SacredForest347]

Personally, as a long-time fan of the books and having read them in the 80's as a teenager, Villeneuve's interpretation of Chani is a sharp slap in the face to Herbert's source material. It disheartened me to see such a wide gap to the original in his recent interpretation. 😢

[@TheGavrael]

It’s like drinking a coffee and getting to the bottom to find a dead spider. You could always tell something was wrong, then get the slap in the end.

[@SacredForest347]

@TheGavrael Excellent analogy regarding Villeneuve's mistaken interpretation of Chani, who is such the essential character AS ORIGINALLY PORTRAYED by Herbert in his masterpiece saga.

[@SacredForest347]

@TheGavrael There is no room for interpretation or modification of Chani, considering her legendary importance throughout the entire series. Her story is fixed in history. She also plays an essential role in Paul's identity as Mua'dib. Chani is literally part of the prescient creation of his persona. She is also responsible for strengthening and furthering the original purpose of the Missionaria Protectiva to ensure the Fremen acceptance of Paul as Messiah. Anyone dialed into the source material knows this is not a malleable character.

[@AsttoScott]

@@TheGavrael Found a baby cockroach in mine just now. ffs.

[@Spin_Gravity]

True. It's funny. Villeneuve changed Chani into Emily Blunt's character in "Sicario". The ineffectual skeptic. Actor Brolin played a CIA agent fighting a war against Mexican cartels. Brolin was right in that movie as well. In war, you fight to win. Period.

[@Sab_MJsMama]

You guys should watch Chanis's portrayal in the Dune miniseries. I really like the actress that portrayed her though some might chafe at her accent. Her portrayal was definitely more faithful and also her relationship with Paul was more believable.

[@nebo1186]

everything in that show was more faithfull and true to books

[@RB-sz9gv]

Zendaya was miscast, and the changes to her character were the worst thing about Dune. Do not deviate from the book! When Peter Jackson deviated from the book, it sucked. Look at rings of garbage, total abomination of crap.

[@humbleopulence]

Well, theres another reason for me not to watch Messiah.... No lessons learned. No humility shown. The perception of humility, yes... But not the actual thing itself

[@RGreen-rt1fk]

Well said.

[@D3athL1vin]

it's pretty much guaranteed that this director wouldn't be able to handle children and god emperor without butchering them through a pretentious hollywood meat grinder

[@humbleopulence]

@D3athL1vin amen to that! He is the very meaning of the word pretentious. He even acts like a cliche of the new wave french director of the 60s and 70s... It's so pathetic

[@jamesremington8056]

Chani in the books is so much more than just some chick with serious RBF

[@derek96720]

She's also way more likeable on the books. And she's nothing like the pushover that movie fans claim she is.

[@technofilejr3401]

@@derek96720 When I heard people call Chani a pushover that tells me they have issues with the idea of loving someone more than themselves.

[@Personneinternet]

Shes pretty much his bitch in the books, she might as well of been any other fremen, agreeing with what ever he says doesnt show any strength of character: she litteraly dies trying to give him an heir, she has no will of her own.

[@marknovak6498]

The biggest issue we have in even the best movie is the ego of the director. They look for a pretense to put their twist on the tale.

[@Skirne]

This is it. Villeneuve prefers his 'improved' version of Herbert's story and is justifying it by saying it is the story Herbert intended to tell all along. This is provably ahistorical, but whatever, Villeneuve is sitting in the director's chair. I would ALSO change a handful of things about Herbert's stories if I was adapting them to the screen: they were openly homophobic, in a few respects deeply misogynistic, etc. Villeneuve doesn't have to port those things over to his movies if he doesn't want to. I would, however, greatly prefer if he was open and honest about the changes he's made and the reasons for those changes, rather than falsely attributing it to Herbert.

[@heralddorothy1165]

@@Skirnenot only that he has this auteur approach where he refuses to show deleted scenes. I honestly think Warner Brothers will ultimately release after his death.

[@shotty.]

@@heralddorothy1165dog we need every single deleted scene, i would watch them all together as a single 6-9 hour film, & i believe many other fans as well. Even if they are to be critiqued, it is the sheer amount of things & people & places that partly make Dune so enchanting. MORE DUNE!!!

[@heralddorothy1165]

@ if I am honest I never understood the LOTR comparison. The Dune films feel more bland, less immersive, and more desolated. The world building in Lord of the Rings never stopped on the first film, it was continuous. Whereas Dune wanted to do its world building in one movie and then develop the rest of the story. The Sadukar were formidable in the first part and then lame in the second. Don’t get me wrong I love the hell out of Villeneau’s vision. But he really undermined himself with that self imposed cut. His didn’t do Justice to the grand scale of the Dune Universe.

[@Skirne]

@ Agreed. LoTR films feel significantly more lived in. But this is an issue with ALL Villeneuve films. They're very cerebral and oddly depopulated. I enjoy his films, but too often they feel like thought experiments rather than like real worlds where real people live. LoTR (which isn't even my cup of tea, really) was the opposite. I far prefer the moral complexities of the Dune universe, but for the most part that's missing in Villeneuve's films also.

[@alex-c7567]

Spot on! Chani's character made no sense in the second film.

[@ukmediawarrior]

Him explaining to her how his prescience works in the next movie to get her back would work, but be so stupid considering in the book Dune he never hides those things from her at all, in fact she knows his inner struggle more than his own mother does as he confesses to her. This is another thing David Lynches version got right that Villeneuve got so wrong.

[@21palica]

"The Emperor is coming! Chani! Chani!" "You were calling my name. It frightened me." "Oh, Chani...All the images of my future are gone. I have to drink the Water of Life." "No...Paul...Please. I've seen the men who have tried. I've seen how they died!" "I'm dead to everyone unless I try to become what I may be. Only the Water of Life will free what can save us." "Paul..." "I must drink the sacred water. We must go NOW!" "Hurry! All I see is darkness." "Paul, I will love you forever. You are my life." - Dune (1984), Dir. David Lynch I know almost all the lines from this movie by heart. So, I used these which prove you are right. Neither Jessica, nor Alia knew what he was going to do...he told only Chani. She went with him and his Feydakin to the desert, knowing he'll most likely die. Because she loved him so much, Chani tried to talk him out of it until the very last moment. Then feeding him the Water of Life herself, showing she still believes in the prophecy. Lynch was a genius.

[@OutlawJJ80]

He trying to push / create the strong independent woman character virus.

[@thatHARVguy]

Chani was already a strong independent woman, but she was created before 2016, so she didn't count to "modern audiences".

[@CantankerousDave]

In the books, Chani would personally kill Fremen challengers that she didn't think were worth Paul's time, dude.

[@macrograms]

nah irulan, chani, jessica, and the reverend mother are stronger in the first book rather than the film. in the books it turns out Paul was ultimately a coward who failed. feel free to explain how the opposite is true.

[@technofilejr3401]

@@CantankerousDave Yep. If they can't out fight Muad'dib's woman why let them bother him.

[@milton1448]

And making Paul more of a cuck. Geez, I despise male feminists

[@seanp9277]

The sandwalk scene really ruined it for me. Stilgar had told Paul to cross the erg and return the next day. This was a test for Paul to prove that he was capable of doing what any Fremen could do. Only then would they begin to accept him as an equal. When Chani joins him on this test she is helping him cheat his way into the tribe. This action not only undermines Paul's journey to becoming Fremen, it betrays the very meaning of what it means to be a Freman (ie. self-reliance and independence). From this moment on both the Paul/Chani and the Paul/Fremen relationships are fraudulent.

[@lordcrunk4790]

agreed, plus the sandwalk (edit: sandwalk alone across the desert alone as a test) concept is not in the books at all. It's a completely invented concept scene. Stilgar greatly respects Paul, gives him a Fremen name, openly admits that he would never challenge Paul because Paul would easily defeat him.

[@df4250]

@@seanp9277 It just goes to prove that Villeneuve is compliant to current delusions of having to include "strong" women themes despite the fact that the Fish Speakers & Honoured Matres of the later Dune novels already are part of the story. Very disappointed in this version and its submission to current male-female delusions. A great story has been spoiled.

[@AsttoScott]

@@df4250 As soon as I seen the posters with her center front instead of Paul I knew it was going to be another movie ruined by the ESG rating.

[@df4250]

@@AsttoScott Couldn't agree more. Timothy's character has become second fiddle to Zendaya's. In the movie, Paul's expressions of love and devotion seem so disingenuous. Not surprising since she doesn't look very attractive in her portrayal.

[@fordhoffmann477]

@@lordcrunk4790the sandwalk was absolutely in the books, what?

[@TheGavrael]

Changing Chani is also a result of changing kynes. Chani in the movie is all about “cultural purity”, but in the book, her grandpa is an offworlder. Denis has an idea in his mind that comes from nothing, just his own projection of what he thinks it should be.

[@macrograms]

And after another book or two we get the backstory of how the Fremen are really Zensunni Wanderers, originally muslims from the mythical planet of Earth.

[@ringofkaren]

Woke media don't allow natives to be saved by foreigners, that is offensive. All the changes were made to be woke, it's very simple

[@Kyljys-pt4up]

Holyfucknuts these people in the comments are insane. Also your weird belief that Chani being different has anything to do with changing Kynes. First of all, the relationship is NOT defined in the movies. So it doesn't even matter. Second of all, what Denis is doing is justified within how movies are structured. I found the whole change a bit interesting, but unlike most OG book fans (which I am one, since I read 30 years ago), I can see the logic and it makes sense. Copying book word for word isn't adapting, it'll end up as just a mess. The question is whether you can stomach that he is changing things. Here's where we can see who are the fundamentalists and who are not.

[@RedMag01]

Doesn’t seem like the changes to Chani is aging well. He should’ve taken a note from what PJ did with Arwen in LOTR.

[@Age_of_Apocalypse]

Indeed, they made changes to Arwen, but what they've done to Chani are way worst enough for me to not be interested in rewatching Part Two.

[@fl4shblade]

the changes to arwen are also trash. she gets propped up by feats other characters do. arwen weakens/extinguishes frodo, gandalf, elrond, glorfindel, aragorn, elladan and elrohir. she is also portrayed as a warrior when she is from the most prolific line of mages that exists in all of middle earth. it is a complete butchery!

[@Knee-JerkReactor]

I completely agree. He's also completely trashed Alia and her character arc.

[@thomaswatson1420]

Herbert did express worry that readers did not understand the message in Dune, but it’s clear that Frank had planned or outlined through Children of Dune before Dune was even published. I suspect Frank had a bit of prescience in him. He knew the myth of Paul Atreides would be widely accepted and thus the payoff in Messiah is so spectacular.

[@humbleopulence]

If only the films could follow suit.... But they won't, because Messiah hinges on all the things that came before, most of which Villeneuve heartlessly cut out of both his films.... So.... I mean.... What's there to adapt? All the depth and breadth of the work is gone!

[@countfloydschillerhorrorth2090]

That whole Beware of following a Charismatic Leader is way way overplayed in some circles. There is no leader that could be better than Paul (other than his son who sacrificed to a point where Paul was afraid too) As he not only cares but he also sees the freaking future and pushes the people in the least dangerous path when he can. Look, All the following books main characters are Leaders who are hated or mistrusted but are absolutely the best Human out of TRILLIONS of them to do the job. If he was telling a story that was mainly about not trusting leadership(other than having a side note about it) Than he did a rather piss poor job. Paul and especially his son the 'Tyrant' aka 'God Emperor' Sacrificed more than anyone for their people. In fact ending up saving the whole entire species (The Golden Path).

[@thomaswatson1420]

@@countfloydschillerhorrorth2090 While I agree that for not Paul Atreides humanity would not be there is true… Herbert still wanted that nuance and dichotomy between good and evil/lead and villain. Many a great evil was done in Paul’s name and he couldn’t live with that. Leto II, born Fremen could distinguish between evils and thus had an easier time accepting his fate, his sacrifice for humanity. However, the warnings of charismatic leaders developing cult like blind followings and the consequences blowing up is absolutely true and well orchestrated by Frank. Even if we find ourselves allying with Paul or Leto. Even pitying them.

[@countfloydschillerhorrorth2090]

@ Yes I agree with that back drop storyline(which wasn't the main plot by any means) and I believed what you said when I read it(Several times) that there are literally Billions and Billions of innocent people dying in the name of Paul. But it was all a means to the end and Pauls probably main line on it was that he couldn't stop it, he's tried and tried to find thousands of paths and there just are none out of the jihad. When Chani said You are the Emperor why don't you just order them. He said it The Fervor/jihad would not stop. And that he would gladly kill himself to stop it but that would no do good. I do disagree about the God Emperor having a easier road of it(Though you had somewhat of a smaller point of him being freeman but I don't think that actually had much bearing). He saw the same future that Paul saw and when they met in the desert he said how he dreamed of this day when he could meet and hold his father in his arms and share love. but ultimate called him a COWARD for telling his son this golden path is too powerful a decision for one to make.. to which his son replied to him out for Knowing the same future.That he his Father was ultimately a Coward for making his son choose this almost soul destroying horrific path to save the entire human race. So it wasn't easier for Letto it was many many times worse(I won't quote the quote) but it explains what horror he would go thru the transformation of losing not his physical humanity (which was bad) but control of his mental faculty being trapped inside a prison in each of the worms. Unable to do anything. Trapped for thousands and thousands of years with no say so whatsoever. Course he changed this later by having worms at rare times do smart things in future books that no doubt Letto lead them to do. But the Great Frank Herbert did contradict many things to progress a Incredibly vast story line in which he didn't always know prior the particulars of how he was going to get where he wanted to go. But again. If you were to write the Dune Series. And forget about the slight charasmatic leader plot line. The books are Exactly the same with the same leaders being the Best and Only Men and Women who could do the job of saving the Human Race. Which really is a plot line that gets more and more pronounce. It goes from saving the Fremans to saving the Universal Human Species..

[@eamonnholland5343]

For the sake of argument, lets assume Herbert was disappointed his readers didn't fully understand the subtle warnings to blindly following leaders/heroes in the first book. Even if that is true, it still doesn't change the text of the first book. A faithful adaptation adapts the book, as is. As it's written, the first book is a classic hero's journey, with very few subtle warnings to blindly following leaders. To insert overt warnings in subsequent books messes up the first book, its story, and characters. On top of this, trying to place blame on Paul, before he's done anything wrong in the first book, is trying to play the morally reprehensible game of pre-crime, of punishing people before they've committed a crime, which other scifi explicitly warns against. At most, Paul's "crime" in the first book is his slight manipulation of their religion, which was not his fault, and neither was his parentage or upbringing, other than to ingratiate himself with the Fremen, so he and his mother could survive, and through time was given the opportunity to enact revenge on the Harkonnen, the Bene Geserit, and the Emperor, a revenge which the Fremen share. Furthermore, this sentiment of only viewing the books through the lens of a warning against blindly following leaders, robs the Fremen of their own share of the blame. Herbert never overtly stated it in the text, but it's present if the reader thinks it through. Every time Paul has prescience in the books, it explicitly states that he sees no way out of the trap, of being able to prevent the Fremen jihad. So, Paul merely manipulates the timeline so he and his mother can survive, and he can enact his revenge. However, this doesn't take away the blame the Fremen share for their own actions in enacting the galactic wide jihad. Too many fans of Dune get so lost in trying to blame Paul, that they completely negate all blame the Fremen share.

[@mysticlegion8088]

When they double down instead of sympathizing it's a huge red flag for me.

[@robertsosna3994]

This is why I always thought the first book should be a trilogy. Just to avoid condensing the storyline.

[@johnnydubya8071]

He destroyed chani. I was very disappointed with dune 2

[@ukmediawarrior]

Villeneuve has made some incredible movies, but I think he was the wrong choice to make a movie based on someone else's work. He just can't do it, he can't get out of his own way. He makes movies that are pieces of art, long panoramic shots of the countryside, sweeping gorgeous views of characters walking through breath taking vistas. The man had two movies to adapt Dune in, and he had plenty of time to do Chani and other characters justice and show them as they were in the books, he made the conscious choice not to. He made the decision to change them to reflect his own story, not that of Herbert's.

[@EdwardVonKhil]

Bingo! Denis is an artist who is obsessed with visuals. He has even expressed multiple times that he would stick to doing movies without any spoken words, if it was economically feasible. Maybe not the best choice for character driven, dialogue heavy adaptations!

[@Personneinternet]

I must disagree with this take: Denis’s adaptation of the play Incendies is one of the best movies i have seen, so was Arrival.

[@Personneinternet]

@@EdwardVonKhil images share more than words « a picture is worth a thousand words» is a saying for a reason.

[@humbleopulence]

I wouldn't know about Incendiea, but Arrival was heavily changed from the source material. Villeneuve just has no respect for source material. You dont butcher Dune and then get to claim otherwise...​@@Personneinternet

[@Personneinternet]

@@humbleopulence its important to understand that movies and books are 2 very different things. You simply cannot adapt a book exactly as it is written, LOTR, is a perfect example, no matter how great of an adaptation it is, it is not the same as the movie, Aragorn arc is different for example, but to me, it makes the movie better for it. If you want to see a movie exactly like the book, just read it and use your imagination. Movies cant be books, this is why they are 2 separate entities. To me, he didnt butcher Dune and im sure he doesnt think that either, this man reads the book every year. Im a Dune fan and although i do not agree with many of his decisions (like not including his first born for example) i know for a fact that this movie was made out of love from the source material.

[@gregorygreenwood-nimmo4954]

Villeneuve looks dead set on repeating the same errors that so badly marred Dune Part 2 going forward. He is going to further butcher the characterization of Chani (and Paul, Jessica and Stilgar among others) all based upon his fundamental misunderstanding of Frank Herbert's works and intent paired with a frankly condescending and insulting attitude that the viewing public is far too stupid to grasp the themes of the story, and so he must presume to rewrite Herbert's works in order to express the ideas he apparently thinks Frank Herbert was too inept to get across clearly (at least to the 'lesser intellects' he seems to assume make up the audience). The arrogance on display is breathtaking, and bodes very ill indeed for any Dune Messiah adaptation.

[@TechMonkey79]

Paul is no longer committing atrocities out of love for Chani, nor is he doing it out of revenge for the death of his son. He's doing in this movie, purely to save his own ass and it kills the story.

[@Bastion83]

I saw part 1, liked it even though the aspects of it that annoyed me, the reviews warned me off of part 2, and I will not be seeing Messiah. The director erroneously tried to do his own thing, and.... Now he gets to reap what he sowed.

[@21palica]

You and me both!

[@deanmartins360]

To me in the book, it was love at first sight. Paul already knew Chani and she was drawn to him. That’s why she warns Paul about Jamis’ weapons hand switch.

[@thetonetosser]

Yes. He fell in love with her, in his visions.

[@Twenty-Seven]

Man finally somebody in the Dune space said it. Chani sucked in the 2nd movie. She was just snarky the entire time with strange moments of intimacy. Paul is providing a huge service to the Fremen by helping them drive out the Harkonnen once and for all. Chani still treats him like an asshole. She treats him like shit 90% of the time. She calls him names, mocks him, slaps him, laughs about his mom potentially dying, etc. She was insufferable to me.

[@johnmasteller140]

The part that really got me was the change at the very end and Paul not saying that the he might be marrying the princess, but that Chani would be his concubine and the princess would never know his bed. Instead we have Chani get all mad and leave.

[@nimblehuman]

Came here to say just this, glad I'm not the only one who saw it!

[@21palica]

We don't even see him drinking the Water of Life! DV implies he is a fraud, and even turns him into a complete charlatan that talks to ghosts. Sad.

[@jasonwright8546]

Yes, that one mistake derailed the entire train of the story after it. There is really no way to fix it that would bring it back in line with the story, so it will diverge more and more from it as it progresses.

[@thesean3194]

DV may not have been the best director for these films. The more I read and hear about his motives and ideas, the more I lose interest in his “vision”.

[@countfloydschillerhorrorth2090]

I've read the series 6 times. I had high hopes. I'm thinking of selling my 4k's. Beside the eye candy. I just don't think I can stomach that Crunches many F U stares at Paul any more.

[@hexenhammer483]

Changes to Chani is the biggest I had with the movie. My biggest complaint was how moody and petulant she was.

[@Sab_MJsMama]

Exactly. She's more masculine, angry and pissed off than Paul. I feel a feminist agenda in the changes that were made.

[@milton1448]

She's insufferable and boring

[@Personneinternet]

To me she felt more fremen

[@Dandiel_]

@@Personneinternet Same. I don't like a feminist agenda in movies nowadays, but I mean I don't see Fremen women being all soft and more gentle like femineity. Just hardcore survival chicks.

[@AfricanTransplant39]

The 2nd film was such a disappointment for me. He did well on the 1st one, but I literally detested what they did to Chani. She was Paul's anchor, but she was also his biggest cheerleader. Jessica guided and mentored Chani as well so that she would understand what it meant to be connected to a Duke when that moment, eventually, came.

[@kuorin9190]

The movie literaly showed us his Chani never considered Paul one of them, even after he went through every single rite a Freemen youth goes to be part of the group, and not only he succeded in every one he did it better then anyone before him, and she still called him a outsider that would never understand them. That moment, to to me, showed their relationship was completely one sided.

[@ShawnEnge]

I loved Dune P1. I watched it numerous times and was excited, almost giddy while I waited for Dune P2. And I was so disappointed. I hated how dirty they did Chani, how they changed her just for "conflict" and so dramatically changed her from the novel, especially knowing that she would come to love Paul, and bear his children. I'm curious to see how they do it, but after how anti-religious they made her, I don't see her returning to the fold. I'm curious, but no longer looking forward to Dune Messiah.

[@seanp9277]

The was my reaction as well.

[@Mr.Bobcat1776]

Do you remember when Chani had red hair?

[@isaiahsmith7123]

Pepperidge farms remembers

[@SK4M_Freal]

Bro!! I've had a thing for girls with red hair because of Chanis description in the books.

[@blist14ant]

is the name Chani European?

[@milton1448]

And was hot?

[@maxmercer1931]

Denis Villeneuve and its consequences have been a disaster for the Dune Universe

[@AsttoScott]

I agree.

[@nimblehuman]

RIP Uncle Ted ♥🕊

[@AsttoScott]

@@nimblehuman That sucks. Didn't know my uncle died.

[@jimheimerl1637]

Zendaya has zero (0) magnetism. None whatsoever.

[@wimpymcsteel4458]

IMO, she does a great job of exuding emotion in her modelling. But her acting is kind off and on. At times it is there, but others, it's very pedestrian.

[@milton1448]

She has no weight on screen. Just a noting burger of an actor

[@DeyanKostov]

Denis Villeneuve wants to make movies for the normies, who have not read the books. The result: normies still don't get it, but the fans are disappointed. Neither here nor there.

[@ringofkaren]

Normies would have wanted a love story were Poul save her, not a girl boss that don't even like him. The changes are made to virtual signaling,.

[@TheAegis1000]

The normies loved the movie ... Dune: Part Two has grossed over $700 million worldwide. As of April 2024, it was the highest-grossing movie of 2024 at the domestic and worldwide box office.

[@TheAegis1000]

@@ringofkaren The normies loved the movie ... Dune: Part Two has grossed over $700 million worldwide. As of April 2024, it was the highest-grossing movie of 2024 at the domestic and worldwide box office.

[@ringofkaren]

@TheAegis1000 And Acquaman made a billion but you will have an hard time finding people that said it was good. I don't think money are an accurate measurement. I think most people watched it to see an epic movie, which are rare now, not to see a love story with an annoying girl boss. Also the idea that Zendaya is captivating and attractive, as the director says, is just crazy, she drags more women coming from her tv shows popularity then men or acting scholars.

[@TheAegis1000]

@@ringofkaren You do realize that movies are created to make money, right ? If the movie was going to appeal to MORE than just the readers of the book, some things had to change. And regarding Zendaya, different strokes for different folks. I found her Chani captivating and entrancing.

[@cloudbloom]

It made no sense in the movies how there was a faction of Fremen who went against the entire religious prophecies and cultural roots of the tribe. That was so bizarre to me and how Chani was siding with them, in the books it seemed clear that no such group of people would be tolerated within the ranks (unless they were all at Jacurutu or something). The changes made to the movies were just off from the very rich source material. Thanks for always keeping to the books and what Frank intended I love your channel for that.

[@TheGavrael]

I’ve said it before, but it goes back to Kynes being butchered. There is no Dream of Liet. Stilgar shows them the caches of water at the sietch, but there is no purpose for it without Liet. “No one dares touch this water” why? Got plans for it? Denis couldn’t square this with his changes so he just ignores them.

[@eamonnholland5343]

If I remember correctly from my reading of the subsequent books, The Jacurutu were a banished tribe that the other Fremen tried to wipe out due to their heresy. The surviving Jacurutu operated in secret, to stay the wrath of the other Fremen. The text of the books makes it abundantly clear that all the Fremen shared the belief in the Mahdi, and after just one generation (after Pardot Kynes came to Arrakis, the father of Liet Kynes), they all shared the dream of greening the desert. That dream being shattered, and the falter of their faith in the Mahdi, only began to occur explicitly, in the text, in Dune Messiah and subsequent books. The changes to Chani ruin her character, the Fremen, the story, and all the subsequent books which rely on Paul and Chani's children.

[@cloudbloom]

@eamonnholland5343 yes exactly

[@tsopmocful1958]

​@@eamonnholland5343Yep.

[@sechernbiw3321]

You are definitely right. In Willis E. McNelly's famous February 3, 1969 interview with Frank and Beverly Herbert, Frank Herbert says outright that he intended the readers to identify completely with Paul and his 'Hero's Journey' arc in the first book, and to really get caught up and lose themselves in that hero narrative. Frank Herbert structured the entire book very carefully so that the audience would be as likely as possible to initially have this one-sided reaction. Dune: Messiah was planned by Frank Herbert from the start to take the wind out of the sails of the audience reaction to the first book. Villeneuve's take on this isn't actually faithful to Herbert's intentions any more than it is faithful to the book. If you listen to that interview it is very clear what Frank Herbert wanted to be the audience reaction to the first book, and something is lost when the audience isn't set up to have that blind reaction. The impact of Dune: Messiah will now be a lot more muted because it is now far less unexpected, far less of a mind-bending and potentially mind-expanding flip from the first book, and that's unfortunate.

[@thomas6502]

I appreciate the vocalization of some small nits we had around the depicted on-screen relationship. Still very excited to see his take on Messiah--and love having you help remind us of the power of Frank's source material. As a kid (long ago) I was one of the "general audience" members you describe, and my first reading of Frank's work came after seeing Lynch's Dune movie. Starting down the journey of discovering and slowly understanding the subtle (and not so subtle) differences between David's interpretation was (and still is) one of the seminal parts of my own journey/coming of age. I watch a similar wonder materialize in my own children's faces as they work through their own path to maturity, and I suppose I harbor similar optimism for the other audience members who become inspired to dig deeper as a byproduct of Denis' interpretation. Thanks again. Keep up the excellent work. Happy Nerding!

[@Bedfford]

Another director who thinks he knows better. Chani was only one of many incoherent things of the main story. I see p1 many times since his debut, but p2 just once. So, on the p1 the director play it safe, and after the success of p1 now he want to apply his "vision" for the consecutive parts?

[@AsttoScott]

Same for me, watched Part 1 about 10 times. Part 2. I had to watch it three times because I kept falling asleep while watching it. It was bad. Looked like it was a movie made on a sitcom budget filled with pointless dialogue.

[@TheAegis1000]

@@AsttoScott Seems millions of moviegoers disagreed ... Dune: Part Two has grossed over $700 million worldwide. As of April 2024, it was the highest-grossing movie of 2024 at the domestic and worldwide box office.

[@AsttoScott]

@@TheAegis1000 I bet you didn't know the movie industry buys tickets to it's own movies just so they can pretend to be successful. They book out entire cinemas to do it. It's all smoke and mirrors mate. Straight up money laundering.

[@jerrysstories711]

I don't think I'm going to bother watching Dune Messiah. Dune 2 was such a disappointment, with all of Herbert's grand and fascinating ideas reduced to a trite anti-religious sermon. And now he apparently thinks he didn't sermon hard enough?

[@TheGavrael]

Yeah he talks about big battles and stuff. Maybe for a Dune Part 3, taking place between the books, but not for Messiah. That’s all already done with by that time.

[@derek96720]

Not to mention that he retconned the entire conspiracy into a bene gesserit plot, which made no sense at all. It was yet one more example of how he wanted to have the real people of influence in the film to be women, so he couldn't even have the emperor have his own agency

[@eamonnholland5343]

@@derek96720 It's also a vast simplification of the books, which showed numerous characters and factions, all with their own agendas, plans, schemes, and motivations. This is made abundantly clear in Dune Messiah with what Irulan gets involved in. To oversimplify the story to only be a Bene Geserit plot, ruins the universe Herbert created, making it feel incredibly small. This is unintentionally hilarious, given that Villeneuve is known for filming grandiose establishing shots to make his films appear bigger.

[@captainavatar0]

Chani was the weakest part of the adaptation for me. I had assumed the change was to simplify her character for certain segments of the audience and if additional movies weren't greenlit.

[@megatronjenkins2473]

Ol Denny ruined Dune with his many many....... choices. I've not bothered with Prophecy, and I'm not watching D: M, either. He changed and left out too much. I'll stick with the Sci-Fi Channel miniseries version. I wish they'd done better on consistant accents for the characters🤣🤣🤣🤣, but it's still superior to the movie versions.

[@sinikoncar7838]

Chani doesn't work at all! So glad you pointed that out! Their relationship makes zero sense - she's just annoying!

[@AorER1613]

I think my favorite part of this unnecessary change is how ultimately pointless it ends up being. Zendayas little pouty sulk she has at the end when she runs off is ultimately meaningless when Denis already came out and said they'll be back together, most likely cause if they never bang then Leto II is never born and Denis & the studio can't keep making these subpar "adaptations". So, in the end, whatever clunky message they were trying to peddle mattered less than obtaining more of that sweet sweet green

[@thatotherguy4245]

Another director needing to screw up a story to make it their own. Sad.

[@21palica]

Thank you! I agree with you 100%! I haven't seen a single Hollywood movie in the theater since "Dune: Part Deux", because Villeneueueuev had no balls to stay true to the source material. Now he's making up sh!t Herbert never said, to justify HIS bad "adaptation" of the books?! Too late and sad.

[@francisjudge]

it appears Denis Villeneuve is validating his ideologically diametric changes to Herbert's character Chani, with subterfuge.

[@derek96720]

Exactly. He's a raging feminist whose primary goal in the film was to expand the importance and roles of the female characters.

[@DavidCodyPeppers.]

In the books, the Love between Chani and Paul was the most human relatable plot device, IMO. 🕊

[@fourteenfour1]

In other words they put the actor before the story. Moral compass is just gas lighting. The character literally was granted full book knowledge because, well girl bossing. He probably doesn't want to admit he knows he got it wrong because he did not do any research on his own but was misled by some on his staff and he wanted to believe what they were saying because that was how the political winds were blowing at the time.

[@AsttoScott]

Takes a special kind of ego to take on a multi million dollar project and not even take the time to read the book it's based on. He must be a real life wanker.

[@SunsetRogue]

Exactly. Villeneuve “girlbossed” both Chani and Princess Irulan to a silly degree. He is guilty of presentism, applying current beliefs and social trends to the past (although set in the distant future, Dune was nevertheless influenced by the time period in which it was written). Ideally, an actor should be cast to serve the needs of the role, to fit the character as he or she was written. Instead, the reverse happened. The roles of Chani and Irulan were enlarged (and distorted) to serve the star power of Zendaya and Florence Pugh, to please them and their agents. Chani and Irulan are supporting characters in the first novel, not the main ones. Chani is religious, as all Fremen are, but Villeneuve made her the cynical possessor of secret knowledge, an impossibility. There is no way she would be aware of the Missionaria Protectiva, just as she would also be unaware of the Bene Gesserit secret breeding program. The Bene Gesserit are skilled at manipulating events from the shadows and they have been successful at it for centuries. I agree with Elaine, AKA Nerd Cookies. In the films it makes no sense for Chani, a faithful believer isolated on a desert planet, to be aware of the carefully planned machinations of a mysterious and powerful order of women. It makes no sense for Chani to fall in love with Paul since she mistrusts him. Furthermore, with her sour attitude in the adaptation, why wouldn’t Paul eventually dump Chani and find comfort and romantic interest in a Fremen girl who believes in him? As for Irulan, Villeneuve made her more savvy than the Emperor himself. In Part Two, Reverend Mother Mohiam calls Irulan her “most acute student,” when there is no mention in the books that Irulan was directly taught by Mohiam. In fact, Irulan is described as a FAILED Bene Gesserit in the first book, who has pretensions of becoming a historian. She was noted for her height and beauty, not her mind. She was a royal bargaining chip to be married off to make a beneficial alliance for the Emperor, not serve as her father’s best advisor on political matters. It did not help that a miscast Christopher Walken played the Emperor as weary and not as clever as his daughter, which isn’t how Herbert characterized him. This idea that the films needed strong female characters is a load of crap. The book had strong females, as represented by Lady Jessica, Chani, and the Bene Gesserit and Fremen women in general. They were operating in a patriarchal feudal society, but they were not weak. Villeneuve’s flimsy reasoning is also why, at the suggestion of one of the screenwriters, he genderswapped Liet-Kynes. Kynes was no longer Chani’s father (or mother in the movie). Also, Stilgar was no longer her maternal uncle. Her natural respect for Stilgar was eliminated. The change in Kynes’ relationship with Chani took away the major reason Chani and Paul bonded in the first place: their shared grief at losing their beloved fathers to the same enemies.

[@mysticlegion8088]

​@@SunsetRogueThese were IMPORTANT changes that never should have happened that you pointed out. Well written, and shows how the movie is a compete travesty.

[@SunsetRogue]

@@mysticlegion8088 Thank you. I’m glad there are people like you who are not easily distracted by Villeneuve’s beautiful and slick visuals that they miss his distortion of Frank Herbert’s story. I’m curious to see how Villeneuve will try to course correct in Dune Messiah all those plot holes he created. Also, I’m more than annoyed that Villeneuve perpetuates this false narrative that Herbert only wrote Dune Messiah because readers misinterpreted his intentions in the first book. Herbert knew what he was doing. He had Paul’s trajectory planned out from the start. To me, Villeneuve is disrespecting Herbert’s legacy by making the author appear incompetent at telling his own story, while magnifying his importance as a supposedly “faithful” adapter of Herbert’s work.

[@mysticlegion8088]

@@SunsetRogue wow, that is extremely disrespectful, I didn't know that. For me Villeneuve is getting into the category of D&D directors of GoT right now.

[@DanniDusette]

This is all a smokescreen on Villeneuve's part. The real reason for all the changes to Chani's character are Hollywood politics. It's the same reason they gender-swapped Kynes. Look at the scenes of the young Fremen snarking on the religious rituals, the silliness with which they treated Stilgar's devotion, and the things Rebecca Ferguson said about how "Dune doesn't have strong female characters" (right next to staying she didn't actually read it) and that "Denis changed it to make the women stronger." They couldn't make Chani devoted to Paul like she was in the book, because women being devoted to men isn't the fashion in Hollywood, just like they couldn't portray Stilgar's devotion as something positive. They also made the Fremen dismissive of Gurney Halleck, when in the book they were in awe of his name, and cut out how Paul, Gurney, and Jessica trained the Fremen to be more effective fighters against the Sardaukar. It's all symptomatic of the message being more important than the story. But Villeneuve won't admit that, because if he does he has to admit he compromised his artistic intent.

[@Ki_Adi_Mundi]

🎯

[@humbleopulence]

@@DanniDusette well spotted and well said!

[@jonoc3729]

Agree but tbh stilgars devotion isnt really positive, thats kind of the point. I think the problem with the movie is they ridicule his devotion.

[@solarydays]

I think it's because he didn't manage to build an actual story in 6 hours. It's boring, they need to throw a conflict on it to justify why there is even a 3rd movie.

[@joer1402]

on point. while I still enjoyed the movie, and I understand that the movie will be an adaption of the book, the Pau/Chani arc (in the movie) does take the story in a different direction. An arc that really has no place and leads to a very different story than the source material. I think Villeneuve is much smarter than that and probably felt the pressure to bend the story to match the cultural politics off the time.

[@westloves]

I’ve read the books a few times and I loved the interpretation of Denis. I’m not expecting or attached to a movie being a complete copy of the books canon. I’m glad Denis has changed things and I hope he continues to change things. Why would you want the same exact story in movie? I’ve never understood that about hard core book readers. Let the books be books and the movie be a movie.

[@df4250]

So much for being faithful to the book!

[@legi0n47x]

In my opinion, comes back to, again, the water of life scene not being done faithfully.

[@21palica]

We never even see Paul drinking it! This was, I guess, DV's "subtle" way of hinting Muad'Dib might be a fraud. Then showing Paul as a complete charlatan in the very next scene, when he is doing his best "ghost whisperer" impression for the Fremen. He depicted him as those scammers on TV, who are taking advantage of (and manipulating) people who feel immense emptiness and sorrow, after losing someone they loved. It was so "on the nose", that it felt comical to me. Oh, let's not forget, turning Stilgar into a bumbling idiot (comic relief) and religious zealot, from the best Fremen warrior and very competent leader, which he is in the books, was just criminal. He used Dune as a vessel for his critique of religious fundamentalism and cults of personality, when it was so, so much more than that.

[@jasonwright8546]

That was an absolute waste of what could have stood out to be the most epic scene of the last decade. Just...ruined...

[@zardozspeakstome]

We will always have the SF miniseries and the great portrayal of Chani by Barbora Kodetová. People avoiding it because of its low budget and some questionable costume designs (just some, not all) should give it a look to see a better portrayal of not only Chani, but of better fidelity to the source material as well.

[@jasonwright8546]

I thought that the SF series was very good. To me, while the sets were low budget (obvious painted sheets), I thought the costumes were the most well done of any of the "Dunes". The Sardaukar especially, as they reminded the viewer of the Swiss Guard of the Vatican, what a personal Guard of an Emperor should invoke. Lynch's Dune: Best sets and use of extras. Most "epic" feeling. SF Series: Best Costumes and pacing. Vil's Dune Part 1: Best Vehicles and combat effects. The sets were too sterile and monochromatic though.

[@zardozspeakstome]

@jasonwright8546 Yes Jason I agree, the new Dune is too monochromatic. I love Brutalism, but giving almost everything that style and lack of vibrant color was a bad design decision. Especially the inside of Arrakeen palace. The miniseries did that best, in addition to Chani, Jessica and Alia.

[@eamonnholland5343]

I can understand the motive for trying to insert Herbert's explicit later warnings about blind faith to leaders in the first book adaptations. I whole heartedly disagree with it, since the first book is meant to dupe the reader as well, but I understand. What I don't understand, is making Chani, of all the characters, the one to disagree with Paul and warn the other Fremen about him. She is probably the worst character to do that to, considering that their love, and the children they have, central to all of the following Dune books. The first book makes it explicitly clear how pragmatic, zealous, and violent the Fremen are. If Chani truly believed Paul was using the Fremen, she would end him on the spot, explain her motive, they'd take his water, and none of them would lose a second of sleep over it. That is how Fremen think and act, according to Frank Herbert.

[@austinguthrie5528]

What gets me, besides Chani's attitude in pt. 2 is the fact, no where in either movies is it stated that Liet Kynes is Chani's mother. They went the extra mile of making sure the ethnicity matched Zendaya but didn't acknowledge the fact that she's her mom and is, in fact, dead and gone. Actually didn't mind the gender swap. Performance was good! Just didn't show any of the great bits showing how much Kynes means to the Freman people. Missed opportunities, all around.

[@paulmasters1181]

And Paul's promise (and believability) of delivering on the Fremen dream of a green world was greatly enhanced by Keynes' dying to save him, and then Paul falling in love with Keynes' daughter.

[@thatHARVguy]

They spent too much effort justifying the gender swap in the press, they didn't acknowledge why in the movies. FFS

[@dancolon47]

When I learned about the new Dune movies, I was concerned the movies would not honor the female characters from the book ... but instead would turn up the modern day feminist sensibilities and insert them into characters like Chani. And I wasn't disappointed. The REAL story of Dune came from Frank Herbert alone.

[@medianvideos]

I’m currently re-reading Messiah, and while I don’t know where Villeneuve is getting his ideas from, I do think he has made the right decision with Chani. In the books, she seems very subservient to Paul, and especially in Messiah she has almost no agency. She sits in the background in the throne room while they have these political debates and now and again she says a line or two. In terms of writing conflict, this is a problem and the director understands this-he understands that this next chapter needs more conflict and if they are separated and then come together (and they must), there’s drama in that and Chani’s strong cultural stand; this makes her more interesting if she is against what Paul has become, or his quest for power.

[@lordcrunk4790]

from - Frank Herbert by Timothy O'Reilly 1981 [ [ [ A frequent response to Children of Dune is a kind of puzzled anger. The reader wonders: What happened to so drastically change Herbert's point of view from the first book of the trilogy to the third? Why did he turn from presenting one of the most admirable heroes in science fiction to presenting the opposite, an anti-hero (at least on the surface) with whom no one can identify? What is he really trying to say? In order to answer those questions, it is necessary to understand that the second and third books were an essential part of Herbert's original conception. The Dune trilogy is really a single novel that grew so comprehensive that it took twenty years and three volumes to write. Herbert recalls his dilemma while writing Dune: "I had the place, and the characters, and the thrust, for a monumental story, with a lot of action, people, evolutionary processes displayed. And it kept getting bigger. Of necessity. There were all kinds of things happening. . . Finally, I just took out how long it should be, and started building from the back. Where does it have to go? So parts of Children of Dune and Dune Messiah were already written before I completed Dune." - F. Herbert The two sequels are as much a part of the design as Dune itself. The question is why the underlying unity is not more apparent to the reader from the first. What is it about Dune, and about ourselves as readers, that makes it so hard to see the unified purpose of the trilogy, so apparent once it has been pointed out? The answer is that in writing about the mystique of the superhero, Herbert himself was prey to it. No less than the people of Arrakis, science-fiction readers demand an infallible hero. John Campbell, the editor of Analog, frankly stated this observation when he refused to publish Dune Messiah: "In "Dune," Duke Leto was fated to fall, and did, before the forces of a malign fate. A Greek tragedy set-up. But Paul, rising against all the cruel fates, overwhelming his enemies, triumphs--a true heroic saga. In this one, it's Paul, our central character, who is a helpless pawn manipulated against his will, by a cruel, destructive fate. . . In this one he is not a Hero--he's simply a helpless Pawn of Fate. The anti-hero, showing that even seemingly mighty men of courage and abilities are helpless--that the whole world is a hopeless, overwhelming place, wherein struggle and high purpose are useless . . . The reactions of science-fictioneers, however, over the last few decades has persistently and explicitly been that they want heroes--not anti-heroes. They want stories of strong men who exert themselves, inspire others, and make a monkey's uncle out of malign fates! As Paul did in "Dune"--not as he fails completely to do in The Messiah." - J. Campbell The point Campbell missed is that Herbert deliberately looked for this reaction from his readers. To Herbert, the hero mystique is symptomatic of a deadly pathology in contemporary society, a compulsive yearning for easy answers. As long as men are looking for simple solutions to their problems, they will give over their ability to think for themselves to the first person who comes along and promises a solution. The Dune trilogy is an attempt to unveil that pattern and, in some small part, to change it. This intention is reflected not only in the narrative but in the structure of the work. Herbert did not want to present his readers with "a pot of message" for which they would sell their birthright as they would to anyone else with a convincing argument. He did not want to become a "hero" himself. He wanted to create a form that would engage each reader with his ideas in an imaginative, educational process. Above all, Herbert is a storyteller who knows that fiction can be a powerful tool to change consciousness. It can speak to the unconscious levels where old patterns are rooted and begin to change them. A reader identifies (in pre-conscious rapport) with the characters in a novel. By playing out certain choices in fantasy, he prepares himself to play them out in fact. The stronger the identification that is created, the more effective the lesson that is conveyed. This is also good storytelling: get the reader involved, and then begin to twist. The Dune trilogy was very carefully structured to build up Paul as a hero in the reader's eyes, so that his failure, when it came, would reach across with full intensity as a lesson on the danger of hero worship. Herbert has repeatedly confirmed this intention: "Dune was set up to imprint on you, the reader, a superhero. I wanted you so totally involved with that superhero in all his really fine qualities. And then I wanted to show what happens, in a natural, evolutionary process. And not betray reason or process." - F. Herbert Although the unhappy conclusions to Paul's messianic efforts are foreshadowed in Dune itself, the clues are hidden by the reader's own involvement. He is caught up in the enthusiasm of the cause: he hates the Harkonnens, he cheers Paul and the Fremen against the Emperor's previously unbeatable Sardaukar troops, he longs for the desert's promised blooming, and he truly believes all will turn out well in the end. This is what Herbert means when he says he wrote so as "not to betray reason or process." The reader is enmeshed in the time of Arrakis and does not know, any more than the characters in the story, what is to come. He is blinded by his own submission to the hero mystique. In the end, the Dune trilogy does not solve but merely explicates the superhero syndrome. Both Paul and Leto seem to promise a messiah to end all messiahs, but they represent only one more cycle in the repetition of archetypal patterns. The solution, if there is one, is to be found not in the trilogy, but outside it, in the effect it has on the reader. When asked, "What is the final judgment?" Herbert replied, "Maybe the judgment is on you". ] ] ] The book is available on archive dot org - Also, I, the commenter noticed that Frank did create a vocal moral compass to Paul's dangerous messiah path and that was Lady Jessica. She chides Paul for constantly playing up his messiah role every chance he gets. Paul chides back "as you've taught me". DV could have just followed the book, allowed Lady Jessica to speak to Paul a few lines of warning "as it was written", gotten the message across to the audience and then not have to split Chani in two by strapping Jessica's opposition onto the purely supportive character of Chani.

[@wazzup105]

Yeah, Chani baffled especially me in the second movie. So not like what I read.

[@titantv4567]

I feel like with any media, its generally a bad idea to make a character's role be about telling people what to think and how to feel about what they are experiencing. And the funny thing is, by making it "a celebration of Paul's ascension" you emphasize the point of the story, that's why Frank wrote it that way, while respecting the audience's intelligence. With all the changes he made, and there is a lot, combined with the final scene, I won't be surprised if part 3 is even further away from the source material.

[@PaulRidgeway-h7l]

Do I think I’m more of a Dune expert than DV - yes, yes I do. He’s wrong, and he thinks he’s right. And that makes him dangerous.

[@jacobnavarro3675]

It doesn't matter what he said in the interview. Bottom line is that Chani is way more interesting in the films. Something about looking a gift horse in the mouth comes to mind.

[@leoda_lion4107]

I agree with everything you said. I didn't buy the romance with Chani. And that takes you out of it. There was areas of the book where he shared his visions with her. He told her his frustrations, in not being able to see a way out, leading to him taking the water of life. So yeah, the Director really screwed the pooch on that one. Like you said, the author never said what we have interpreted until years later. Hindsight is always 20/20. But yes, he wrote it as a trilogy and needed Messiah to get the events to part 3.

[@maneotis4g63t]

I wouldn’t put much credence into what BH says though, because I’m not he even understood his father’s work after the abominations he wrote with KJA

[@mmiller73]

It’s the typical modern woke interpretation that infects everything Hollywood does now. They made Chani the strong, girl boss fighting against the patriarchy represented by Stilgar and Paul.

[@Chimera_XXI]

I consider the whole Dune/ Chani situation an “I love this movie, but…” kinda deal. Could it be that the director, producers and studio simply could not tolerate a story with a traditional, masculine, tragically heroic male figure? Could it be that in this time when masculine heroism is toxic unless it’s portrayed by a ‘strong female character’, they just couldn’t allow it? No, Chani can’t just be a sayyadina and a member of the tribe. Oh, yes, she must be the best of the best warrior and challenge Stilgar’s leadership at every turn (even though she’s young enough to be his own child). Stilgar would’ve been compelled to kill Jamis or anyone for challenging his leadership (for the good of the tribe), if Paul didn’t. Even after publically insulting and defying him, she gets a pass?? Tribes (except in Hollywood) aren’t democracies. They don’t work that way. I don’t think it’s that deep., y’all. Chani in front of Paul on the poster foreshadows what we saw on screen. Tells us all we need to know. You think this a Paul Atreides story with a Chani in it? Surprise! You get a Chani story with forced relationship with a Paul Atreides in it. When Paul declared himself Duke of Arrakis, he wasn’t taking it away from The Emperor or The Harkonnens. He was taking it away from her (it’s her beautiful planet Arrakis, right?) . When faced with being anything to Paul other than his superior in the tribe, she left. Defeating Jamis wasn’t enough. Conquering Shaihulud wasn’t enough. Having Stilgar’s ‘countenance’ wasn’t enough. Surviving the ’Water of Life’ wasn’t enough. Subduing the counsel of naibs and the reverend mothers wasn’t enough. Killing Feyd Rautha Harkonnen in personal combat wasn’t enough. Usurping the Emperor and seizing the throne wasn’t enough. Declaring his love, loyalty and devotion wasn’t enough. I mean, …what would it take to impress that woman?? That’s not the actress portrayal. That’s the writing and direction driven by the production. Fortunately, the movie was great enough to withstand this flaw

[@behavior852]

This one is bizarre, Villeneuve's take on F. Herbert's intentions are wacked!?! What is he talking about? Are we losing something in the translation? Herbert was clear in his first book. There are no hero's here, just cautionary tales. Chani was a warrior she didn't need Villeneuve's help. He's talking shite! RIP Lynch!?!

[@j.jennings1722]

In the novel, Chani was a true believer and being trained to become a reverend mother when Jessica jumped to the head of the line and took her place. The movie could have explored her faith, making her character deeper in that way, and shown the scene in the seitch where she defends Paul against a Saudukar infiltrator into Gurney's men. The lack of a time jump, which could have been accomplished with an extra ten minutes, and the lack of them having a toddler who is murdered, robbed the film's ending of a lot of its emotional impact, and was replaced by soap opera fakeness.

[@derptothemaxclearly]

LOL! Imagine, just making a good movie using the source material... The hard part is done for you.

[@EdwardVonKhil]

It wouldn't get the funding. Just like in Academia, you have to follow the agenda.

[@AsttoScott]

​@@EdwardVonKhil No you don't. Gibson and Stallone never did. Now they're the Ambassadors for Hollywood...

[@EdwardVonKhil]

@@AsttoScott Mel Gibson just joined WEF, so it makes sense if he is getting funding now...

[@AsttoScott]

@@EdwardVonKhil Wonder if it's because they burn't his house down or not.

[@AloisWeimar]

@@AsttoScottyour “they” is some timid bigotry, the “agenda” you talk like a reactionary

[@mgabriel2636]

Still needs to be a series. Any movie must short significant plot and theme elements.

[@michaelallen434]

One question I’ve gotten from friends that saw the movie, but not read the book, is why Chani is in love with him. More importantly they wonder about the relationship in general since the way she behaves is not like someone in love. Apparently it wasn’t Zendya that was the problem. I don’t know how DV will fix it for the next movie.

[@jasonwright8546]

There is no fixing that. The plot will have to diverge more and more from the original as a result.

[@jasonvizcarra709]

His relationship with chani moved way too fast so it wasn’t that convincing.

[@TheGavrael]

As bad as it was, it makes me miss the voiceover from 84. Denis didn’t show or tell us their love grew, he implied it despite the massive rift between them. No chemistry at all

[@jasonvizcarra709]

@@TheGavrael doing a time jump to where paul had his 1st child and established himself with the fremen, along with Alia being born, would have worked out so much better

[@AloisWeimar]

Yeah it totally went slower in Lynch’s movie during a montage with one line of dialogue “Paul and Chani’s love grew”

[@userk4175]

Whatever director’s excuses are, we all know this was to have feminist girl-boss in the story, making it all about herself.

[@j.jennings1722]

I agree with your views on this subject. Most of the changes and omissions didn't bother me, seeing as most movies make changes from the source material to fit the film medium, but the changes to the ending, with Chani, was almost too much to take. The soap opera type ending was hard for me to watch, and instead of walking out of the theater feeling either triumphant or happy, I felt letdown. Paul never betrayed the Fremen. They were more than eager to be set loose upon the empire and kill those who had oppressed them for thousands of years, Chani included. It wasn't until Dune Messiah that she started having any qualms about the jihad. Paul was the ultimate hero in Dune, and it was always the plan to have Messiah subvert the hero trope.

[@kethricwilcox2753]

Part 2 felt like Villenuve lost the thread of Paul and Chani's story in favor of the action scenes. By the end of the movie I was left wondering how is he planning to fix this important aspect of the book. Dune is such a complex story that I'm not sure anyone could ever do an adaptation that appeals to fans and attracts a general audience.

[@Snagprophet]

I'm gonna honest, the final battle isnt even that long. They fire the atomics at 2hrs 14 mins and then just 6 minutes later Paul is stabbing the Baron in the neck. We don't see the worms do anything when they get within 100 metres of the Emperor's compound.

[@cameronmccoy5051]

Yes to all of it. I was so disappointed with the changes and his explanation doesn't make sense. Listening to him talk about Dune, it's pretty clear that HE was the one who misinterpreted Herbert's message. Especially for anyone who has read through at least the end of Children of Dune, but moreso for anyone who has read through God Emporor. I wholeheartedly agree that he made Chani flat, inauthentic, and uninteresting compared to the books. One of my favorite "scenes" of her in the book was where she killed that Fremen who wanted to challenge Paul and joked that maybe she should have had Harah do it. When Paul got angry and she explained the subtleties of why she did it. That the fame and honor of dying by the Mahdi's hand might be denied and that you might die by the hand of his woman. That once that got around, there would be fewer challengers. There were no "weak" characters in the book that I can remember. Least of all Chani. Hell, the Sardaukar that attacked the South Polar region and killed Leto II and captured Alia did so while trying to escape women and children. But sure, Herbert wrote weak female characters.🙄

[@goatcheeseomlette]

The biggest issue I had with the second movie was rushed timeline. The movie made Pauls joining the Freemen and their uprising take place over a couple of months, where the books timeline had it take place over a couple of years. Also the freemen running off straight away after Pauls fight with Feyd to the ships that just happened to be there waiting for them. Also there was no representation from the Spacing Guild. OK I have a number of issues with the second film.

[@tsopmocful1958]

Yes, it's hard to know where to start when criticising it.

[@benprusi6970]

I have to agree with this video. While I loved the cinematic vision made for both Dune movies, Denis missed the boat on what makes this story amazing. My biggest complaint is how he portrays Chani. This is not her and it takes away one of the greatest lines at the end of Dune; when Jessica tells Chani they history will know them as wives. They both accept that they will not be a figurehead but will gain the greater role of wife and mother to the men they love. The other miss is he doesn't really acknowledge the drive Paul has to see the future, the event that drives him to drink the water of life, and the tragedy of then knowing the only future that works out for the future of Arakis and the Fremen dream is one that makes him a tyrant and launches a galaxy wide jihad. At the end, I'm happy with the beautiful world that was created, but I'm disappointed that it doesn't capture the themes that make the Dune novel one of the greatest science fiction books of all time.

[@theaugur1373]

I had high hopes after the first film. Villanueve did a nice job with that one overall. I’m even willing to forgive him rendering Thufir unimportant. But the change to Chani just does not make sense.

[@virag1132]

denny is very quickly become ridley scott, the next generation: a director who fundamentally misunderstands his source material AND his own films in the end--good gods, scott has an understanding of blade runner that a small naive child would have after you gave up trying to explain the pkd book to them. and we have all seen the craptastic explosion of ridley scott garbage over the last 20 years, so we know how this show ends...

[@Crazyhorse75-u2z]

First off, I think she came close to ruining the movie. She came off as a whiny teenager who thinks they are smarter than everyone else. Also, I don't see how having her go sulk in the desert by herself while "her people", go off to war, makes her the moral compass. It came across as some teen girl having a hissy fit because she didn't get her way.

[@Hi-pl5rx]

I haven’t seen anyone talk about it yet but I wonder if Villeneuve is setting it up so that the less religious fremen will be the ones to help the plot against him in Messiah. Could very well be what he’s doing. However, Chani is still a question mark to me I guess

[@glynh5480]

I don't have the time to research the lore, so I really appreciate your videos and content. Great work!

[@benjaminattwell1430]

The chani change RUINED the movie! Chani makes no sense as an embittered lover. Chani is RIDE OR DIE as all fremen are! The more time that passes the more I hate Villenueve’s movies.

[@BjornKuma]

Movie Chani really rubbed me the wrong way. Extremely irritating.

[@jackkennard4539]

Agree, Chani's relationship with Paul and having her first child, Paul's sister not killing the Baron, Fad Rafa being bald, and more I have to wonder,, who wrote the script, WB?

[@mopcambmm3185]

Dune was long considered impossible to make into a movie. Not even the miniseries could capture everything. I’ve seen all versions and love each one for a further glimpse into the various interpretations of this world. I love Zendaya’s Chani because I can relate to her version. The Farrah haired Lynch version of Chani who meekly says ‘tell me your dream, Usul’ never did anything. Where’d she get the water to wash her Farrah hair? When she had no emotion as Paul claimed the throne and Irulan, that’s not believable to me. I appreciate Zendaya’s version who has been made strong from living in the desert. She’s not frivolous because it’s a very hard life but she’s still passionate and loyal. It took a long time before she finally took off the nezhoni scarf because she could see the major changes in Paul. I relate to her young group who kind of laughs at the old ways but will hold true and continue and come back to the old ways because they are Fremen. Denis will obviously find a way to bring Paul and Chani back together through love and sharing so they can have children. He knows how important they are to each other. I look forward to the continuation of their storyline and the heartbreaking consequences and the joys of Dune Messiah.

[@countfloydschillerhorrorth2090]

Now he's talking about a Action packed Dune Messiah. Beside the Jihad in his name (which is a backdrop but not much of the storyline) I don't see that book as action packed unless he's going to pass up all the rest(again) to focus on something that is probably mentioned in less than 1% of the book.

[@WolfHowl71]

Overall I liked these newer Dune movies however I really don't like what he did with Chani. I agree with you that, in these movies, it's hard to understand why she gives a damn about Paul.

[@countfloydschillerhorrorth2090]

I think Pauls Mother was more of a main character in book one. Basically Deni has his "Moral Compass" portray her as a Conniving Witch(which would seem fine if it was from others and not her as they have a common character trait and ark in the story). I don't think Deni is away of this. But he portrays her as very Xenophobic.(Again It would be fine, except coming from Pauls Future Real Wife and Mother of his Children). Not only that but he wastes all those great story lines to travel down this off ramp where it has to be continued into the next film. Yet he already ended the suspense by having Paul say that she will accept it and they will be together that he "Has seen it". Way to much time on something that leads to that line and then further still past it. Beautifully looking Sci-Fi film. And without knowing the books. you would think it's a pretty great scifi movie(though maybe not totally worth the long ride). Knowing the Great real story and how 90% of it seems left out. much of it needlessly so. It only feels like a grand disappointment. Watch the SyFy channels Mini Series to get a much more true version of this awe inspiring epic. Yes a much much cheaper production but made by adequate people who pay homage to the story and not inject their...politics of the day on it.

[@Jetstoanywhere]

I cant offer anything constructive because if Zendaya is in something i dont watch it. I have read the books and acccording to plot breakdowns from part 2 and from what little i hear i dont appreciate vilnuves "vision"

[@davidjenkins5962]

Well done, thanks for keeping the legacy real.

[@EricOSullivan]

Elaine, I would love to talk to you about this. If you ever have about 20 minutes on a show of yours, you can send me the link and I can tell you all about Villenueve’s Chani. I have a Theory. -Sully