The Inevitable Downfall Of The Arrowverse

[@DonniedrakoE]

I think the real issue with the arrowverse long term was just a severe lack of adaptation. Having 22 episode seasons every year across the shows that effectively operate the same without any big changes across said seasons just made the arrowverse bland after a while. Which is sad because most of the actors and starting seasons for these shows are good.

[@blyki867]

22 episodes is crazy

[@maliquematthews903]

@@blyki867 they stopped having 22 eps years ago

[@dcworld4349]

@@maliquematthews903 Because of Covid, Flash still had 19, 18 and then 20 episodes. Without Covid Flash would still have been 22. The only reason for some of the other shows being 15-16 episodes is the cost.

[@Alovon]

@@dcworld4349 Well it's more like Flash split the EP Count in half story-wise Budgetarily yeah it's still 18-20 episodes, but narratively, it's 2 9-10 episode story-arcs. If only CW could allow a proper 9-10 ep miniseries format for the series so they could have the budget that would provide, but with Flash entering it's final season, who knows if that would happen.

[@TheJadedJames]

22 episode seasons isn't inherently bad. Just split the story arcs into 12 episode mini stories. There is no reason why say ... the League of Assassins arc from Arrow Season 3 had to last a full year. They could have let that ride out for 12 episodes and then went to a new villain. Nevertheless, when you have to churn out a lot of episodes, that can make the episodes get same-y. Like Doctor Who is episodic but there will be only one repeating set with at the very least ... the action taking place in dramatically different locations and contexts in each week

[@AzA609]

It really sucks how much the Arrowverse fell off. At one point I was super excited with each new episode (mainly Flash and Arrow) but then the shows became predictable, repetitive and hella goofy. The characters didn't grow and all these reject sidekicks started popping up with powers and saying "we are the Flash".

[@scottgilliam8185]

For real especially The flash every season Barry was losing his powers and being told what to do from Scooby Doo gang then they gave Iris power I was done

[@uncannydcmarvelous5732]

@@scottgilliam8185 don't forget that the unnecessary Team Flash is still a thing nowadays.

[@KW-zj8gt]

I agree but it was great while it lasted. I'm glad they had their group peak with crisis. My whole town went crazy for both series first few seasons but Arrow though. I'm sure the spirit will re-envision in some other manner. See you then 🤙🏼 And Supergirl is mad too.

[@aditya._.d3shmukh]

Fax

[@Noms_Chompsky]

I really dug it the first few seasons when Arrow would be all murdering CEO's and other 1% baddies; but it never really adjusted to superpowers when Flash and Supergirl started getting a full head of steam going for them. It became all Damion Dark and League of Assassins instead of sitting down for an hour to see some conservatives get what they deserve.

[@Batmann29]

I’ll never forget The Flash season 1 with Harrison Wells and Arrow season 2 with Deathstroke. I felt like those 2 seasons were television masterpieces. They certainly made me excited when I watched them as a teenager.

[@s.beccari4678]

Manu benet did so good in that role.

[@histkontext]

@@s.beccari4678 and after that they completely f-ed up his character when he was beaten by Thea in s3

[@JayPatel-ug1nh]

Share the same feeling bro!

[@randalholeman1722]

Harrison Wells is a classic for me

[@nopizza4you]

I prefer zoom over reverse flash but yeah, RF was also very good

[@BenAri18]

I'll never forget how good The Flash seasons 1 to 3 were, those were prime superhero television and produced badass villains like Reverse Flash and Zoom

[@JD-rox]

For me, season 1-5 were great.

[@EvilAnomaly]

Yep...for me I was done with the Flash after S3

[@emman6793]

@@JD-rox so you liked season four? lmao

[@oakinw8361]

I don’t know why they never brought back Zoom. He was the best villian in the whole arrowverse

[@fallencastle]

I just wanna point out that Barry murders not one but 2 people in s2 first 2 episodes. Sand demon and atom smasher. Like, tf.

[@jedsithor]

Regarding Supergirl specifically, I think the biggest problem is that right from the start they completely skipped over the most interesting part about the character - survivor's guilt. Unlike her cousin, who grew up on Earth and has no memory of Krypton, Kara was raised on Krypton. She had friends, family a whole life, a whole world that was all taken away in an instant. She watched everyone and everything she'd ever known or love burn. Her world literally ended before her eyes and then to top it all off, the one reason she had for surviving and going on turned out to pointless as the child she was meant to protect was already grown up, had a life and was revered and had no need for her protection. The first season of Supergirl should have dealt with that. It should have been about her trying to come to terms with everything she's lost, with the inevitable resentment she would feel towards her cousin for not being a helpless child and not being able to fully understand her pain because he has no memory of the day Krypton died whereas for her it's all she can see when she closes her eyes. Kara is someone who should have serious PTSD and the story should have been about figuring out how to go on, how to live and find a home for herself on this strange primitive planet she finds herself on. Frankly she shouldn't have even put the suit on until the last episode of the first season because first she needs to figure out for herself if the world and its people are worth the effort that Clark puts in. Instead the show went past all of that and straight to Kara being a plucky mini-Clark. Supergirl could have been such a great show.

[@akane171]

Yep. Totally this. Instead we got a humanity-ass-kisser and in the last season, a new Kardashian. What is sad, because they totally wasted Melissa Benoist and the rest of the cast.

[@pythonjava6228]

Amen

[@EllyValentini]

I guess for people who know the comics this was a huge waist. The story you described sounds super interesting. And Melissa definitely would’ve been amazing portraying that. I love Kara for all that she represents: trying to do good in what looks like an evil world. That conflict captivated me from the start.

[@cowlico]

I agree!!

[@dimitrescu182]

If they wanted her to be female Clark and part of the Arrowverse from the start, maybe they should have just made her the only Kryptonian to arrive on Earth, and Reign just because she's the show's best villain.

[@thenerdyshutterbug]

The CW-ish writing is what killed it. 22 episodes per season, giving supporting characters more screentime, less fights, characters taking decisions which doesn't go with their characters and taking break between the episodes. The audience became frustrated. Also with time the shows became cheaper - Heroes didn't used their powers in LoT, Batwoman was badly edited and choreographed and poor lighting, even the costumes looked like cosplay, and all the budget of Black Lightning went behind Nafeesa Williams' dresses (she wore 4 different outfits per episode on an average). So CW killed Arrowverse itself.

[@riddlemethis5829]

Yes, I'm glad someone mentioned this. The writing started off okay or even good in some of the shows, but by the end, some of it was downright awful like in the Flash or, in the case of Batwoman, was never good to begin with.

[@OldBenKenobi2318]

@@riddlemethis5829 Literally everyone mentions this lol. It was literally said in the video.

[@riddlemethis5829]

@@OldBenKenobi2318 Was it? I don't remember the writing being mentioned in the video.

[@OldBenKenobi2318]

@@riddlemethis5829 That was pretty much the point of the video lol

[@ShadeSlayer1911]

@@riddlemethis5829 "Run Barry, run!" "There's nowhere to run!"

[@benwasserman8223]

Here’s the thing about the Arrowverse: good or bad, it earned the shared universe moniker. You never saw a crossover between Barry, Kara, Sara or anyone else and felt like the creators were rushing stories. Something like Crisis actually has the time and buildup put into over the years.

[@zaczane]

Tru

[@ak_hoops]

agreed

[@uchihabomber1296]

Very much agreed it was cool too.

[@TheJadedJames]

It was probably the opposite of DC Cinematic universe's approach of making a Justice League movie wherein Superman/Wonder Woman were the only characters to get previous solo movies. My brain is still fried on the fact that someone thought it was a good idea to make a team-up movie BEFORE establishing the individual heroes in their own flicks. That's the whole point of doing a team-up story! It is about seeing characters from separate stories coming together. If you don't do the pre-work ... then it is just a Superman movie with too many characters wherein Superman also barely shows up

[@AS-ri1mb]

@@TheJadedJames that’s only really something the MCU did

[@jeremy1860]

The Arrowverse was an odd case for me. I never considered its shows to be bad, but there was nothing about them that made me clamour for more of them 🤔

[@H.V.C_Shino]

Which defeats the purpose of entertainment

[@Andrew-xt8lz]

Only enjoyed the Flash seasons 1 and 2. Stayed until 5 hoping they’d recapture the same feeling again.

[@mr.doctorcaptain1124]

Wasn't Batgirl in the arrowverse? That show was worse than a 23 month abortion

[@draven531]

@@Andrew-xt8lz first half of season 6 is amazing and season 8 is pretty good but it’s pretty average

[@Duffman1800]

@@mr.doctorcaptain1124 Season 1 was fine, but after the OG Batwoman left it got a lot worse.

[@ZedKingsley]

This is why Legends of Tomorrow was my favorite Arrowverse show. Each season was different. The cast was constantly evolving and changing. It was just a fun show and I’ll miss it

[@leonardobraynen1524]

LOT is done??! How many seasons, 7?

[@ZedKingsley]

@@leonardobraynen1524 yep. Canceled after season 7, unfortunately

[@gnocchidokey]

Yes, I abandoned every Arrowverse show except LoT. That show will always have my love 💜

[@TheTravAbides]

Go woke go broke

[@ZedKingsley]

@@TheTravAbides I wouldn’t really say LoT went broke because it was “woke”. LoT never had a huge fan base to begin with, since many people didn’t like the 1st season. But the small fan base it did have was very dedicated

[@ChristopherD1999]

The arrow verse was such a special part of my teens, will never forget those nights watching with my bro. After I graduated HS I pretty much stopped watching in early 2018 on a good note. ‘You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain’

[@ataridc]

Yea

[@superkid801]

You have to admit it’s impressive this universe went on. I personally enjoy this universe far more than the films, for the stories it told, to the heroes it brought to the tv screen. I can understand about what is too much, but appreciate what I enjoyed. It sucks some of the shows did cancelled, but things do end after a while. Superman and Lois bring on another earth is nice, I’ll admit. I will miss this universe and the impact it has on many fans.

[@maliquematthews903]

Its really impressive

[@uchihabomber1296]

I do agree.

[@Comicbroe405]

Yup agreed.

[@todward3295]

I’ve met almost all of them at comic cons and have a signed tapestry I really enjoy all the shows besides like new seasons of supergirl I was caught up on every single show and I absolutely loved the ending of the arrowverse which is when arrow ended imo

[@gabbar51ngh]

Only thing which can actually keep arrowverse going is if they greenlit a Green Lantern show with Hal Jordan. Since most of the stories take place in space, the new audience could easily watch the show without watching rest of the arrowverse shows. However they can add small nods to the past events.

[@KibblezanBitz]

I think the biggest strength of the DC Legends series was that it did evolve. That cast was a complete revolving door. IIRC, Sara was literally the only character to last from the show's beginning to its end. It started as that kind of Arrowverse show where they tried to half-ass a brooding tone (my family was murdered by an unkillable man and I've become a fugitive to the time police, but you're all literally the suckiest options I could ask for to help me lol). It was a gradual change, but when the season 4 premiere happened and the cast watched in awe as a unicorn appeared, only to be reduced to a collective terrified ness as it gored and proceeded to eat a Woodstock attendee, I knew there was something legitimately good there.

[@The0thDoctor]

@@milliedmacdoan7730 he was actually saying how the show got better after its first season, the revolving cast helped the show imo, the only loss i was annoyed and upset about was Ray, and thats because Brandon didn't want to leave, he was let go because they didnt want to pay his salary anymore.

[@TheHaas123]

While that’s true, there’s such a thing as too much change. S4 was probably the last good season they had, afterwards they kept trying to one up themselves and it didn’t work.

[@Marcelelias11]

The strength in Legends is that the other Arrowverse series (except Arrow at first) are dumb and campy, but they pretend to be something serious and deep, while Legends knows very well how dumb and campy it is, and it's very proud of that fact.

[@18bluecat]

​@The0thDoctor Losing Ray was hard but I was okay with him getting his happy ending with adult Nora. As long as Sara and Mick stuck around, we were fine. Then we lost Mick.

[@MrTutiplengo]

It doesn't surprise me that Sara was the only character to stay throughout the entire run. She was the character written in to pander to the gender politics which became the network's focus.

[@israelsu1757]

They did exactly what comics do: overcomplicated stuff that doesn't feel interesting. I watched a lot of the arrowverse and really enjoyed... For a time. Although I really love to see a final season of the the Legends, that show did it right by mocking the entire concept and not taking himself very serious.

[@Comicbroe405]

True about Legends.

[@jaernihiltheus7817]

My only issue with legends is that it stopped doing what it was designed to do post-season 3; which is to take side characters that felt like character bloat on other shows and give them time in the spotlight in this show - slightly alleviating the character bloat problem that every show had. The last character they did that with was wally west in s3, which was great. But it's always bummed me out that they never let laurel do so much as a crossover cameo on legends (even after arrow ended, think of all those potential story hooks that could've spawned from interactions between sarah and laurel-2!) + they never really did anything with black lightning's excess characters or supergirl's plethora of characters... at all. Idk. I still loved legends but - especially looking back - it just felt like wasted potential in some ways.

[@Velocity_YT]

Except the comics make up for that with the amount of lore that's behind it and good story telling. These writers however....well...you get what I mean

[@starkillersneed]

@@Velocity_YT True. Plus comics have the excuse of it being near impossible for almost a century of lore, at least 10 years of which was dedicated to mostly disconnected saturday morning cartoon material, to not end up at least a bit convoluted.

[@Velocity_YT]

@@starkillersneed exactly

[@Bliu2th]

My biggest issue with the shows were the 'adaptations' of story arcs into ONE single episodes. Why couldn't they just have multiple episodes to adapt the story?

[@cwkapiushon]

@yellow That isn't what he is saying, he is mentioning how the little filler villains don't feel good at all since you know that by the end of the episode, the whole deal will be solved and everyone lives happily ever after.

[@ConcealedWeaponry]

@yellow If the first thing you think of when people are talking about longer story arcs is Dragon Ball Z, then your viewing range needs to widen a lot. There are hundreds of good shows that use longer arcs in their series without overdoing it like Dragon Ball, and a fair portion end up being extremely well written.

[@TristanPignon]

I think the major issue with the Arrowverse is the same that might happen with the MCU soon. The CW made it so that it was difficult to understand if you didn't follow everything. To me, that is what made me stop watching altogether. I'm a completionist at heart when it comes to story, and I couldn't stand the direction Flash and Arrow were headed, so I stopped everything.

[@abbearley2904]

small correction: the creators of superman and lois have confirmed that it doesn't, in fact, take place in the arrowverse. arrowverse superman just looks identical to s&l superman. In the season two finale, General Lane talks about how Superman is the "only superhero" on their earth, though he's seen other worlds that have multiple superheros (the arrowverse)

[@ghost_curse]

@@edwinshibu5507 It's since been confirmed that it does *not* take place on Earth-Prime

[@The0thDoctor]

The Arrowverse as a whole i consider to be more than just earth prime - it includes Stargirl on Earth 2, S&L on whatever earth their on, they are in the same multi-verse, which to me is the Arrowverse. Supergirl was on E38 originally but still apart of the Arrowverse.

[@AaronDGreen]

@@The0thDoctor Not since COIE, the Arrowverse is just Earth-Prime now. The DCEU isn't arrowverse, but it had a bigger crossover w/ the arrowverse then Stargirl did.

[@legendlalo]

@@edwinshibu5507 no it isn’t.

[@legendlalo]

@@The0thDoctor yeah but supergirl crossed over with the flash in its first season, Stargirl and SM&L show absolutely no reason why they should or even want to crossover with the shared universe, they are completely fine on their own, and doing the whole crossover thing would just be a crutch and would just totally stop the momentum in each show. The arrowverse is dead, it was nice while it lasted but we all know it’s dead.

[@kyleway8513]

The Arrowverse reached the same issues that people are finally starting to see in the MCU in a fraction of the time.

[@krim7]

It’s not a fraction of time. There is waaaay more Arrowverse content than MCU content

[@azrael_pendragon]

@@krim7 with how much stuff we got this year I believe that will change very soon.

[@gajrajsingh51]

Just look at today's hall H announcements 😂

[@azrael_pendragon]

@@gajrajsingh51 most of them I'm not interested in. Only daredevil mainly.

[@frankieflow13]

@@azrael_pendragon MCU is pushing content out because if they wait another 10 years the actors will get older fast and perhaps not all of them will be around. Seems like they are setting up a Young Avengers storyline and you can't do that if your "young avengers" are in their late 20s.

[@tylerjames646]

Good to finally see Smallville finally get some recognition. People seem to either not know it exists or don't credit it for being the reason Arrow was given a show in the first place. Sucks that every show and movie these days has to be a shared universe. I just want to enjoy a show or movie and not have to do 3000 hours of homework to figure out what is going on. I am definitely feeling the superhero fatigue.

[@7625e]

facts. Smallville was and is goated

[@hexagonshorts2186]

if you are tired of traditional superhero shows go watch The Boys and you sir will be satisfied to the full

[@fanfanpay]

People who don’t know smallville existe are 15/20 years old. They don’t matter.

[@lifeisberserk9566]

The Real ones know what Smallville is only the newbies don't know Smallville is light years better than the arrowverse

[@Eternaldarkness3166]

Smallville did in 1 show what like 8 or 9 shows tried to do

[@xxSLAV33xx]

Superman and Lois is pretty good and feels fresh. It seems like this might be the spot they decide to reboot around. Personally I am kind of glad that they cancelled a bunch of those shows because they started to hit a pretty low bar of quality, and would often times feel bloated with how big the cast had gotten. There is also the case of Batwoman that was kind of just bad from the beginning.

[@theloniousMac]

Even the most passionate fans can only take so much bad writing, left with politics, and utter absurdity before going to watch reruns of COPS.

[@ayumumaelstrom2029]

I blame them removing basically all the good/fun aspects of the leading hero characters and choking the fans with tons of bad CW romantic drama and whatnot. Felt like Oliver and Barry couldn’t do a single thing without their teams dictating their every move or they got all mad at them for not listening

[@bennycaustic5102]

I really liked watching the Flash when it first came out when I was a kid, I fell off at the third season but I remember greatly enjoying season 1 and 2 despite its flaws.

[@Savagekingx30]

Same. I can't remember, but I feel like around the savitar Era is where I was like " ok..... enough is enough now " Barry being savitar and iris' whole " WE are the flash " stunt made me just give up lmao

[@wrlord]

"Flash when it first came out when I was a kid" Jesus, what are you - 12?

[@stanknight9159]

@@Savagekingx30 The "We are the Flash" did really kill it. Also, I think really summed up the flaw is that it was Team Flash. The only reason I watched was it was on Netflix but I lost all respect that moment too. Also, every season there was another speedster which annoyed me.

[@Eking-su3tr]

@@Savagekingx30 the whole "who is savitar?" Thing was pretty cool. Iris should've died in that season, they did HR dirty

[@sccdddf1595]

@@Eking-su3tr they should of revealed Savitar earlier in the season, and actually give him some flash forwards into the future where we could understand why he became like that

[@frankenviews4069]

Of all of them, Legends of Tomorrow reinvented itself after season 3 to such a degree it was practically the same show in name only. It gradually distanced itself from the Arrowverse and by latest 3 seasons established itself as existing in a reality where any kind of story from any genre was possible and that main characters can easily be removed and replaced. That show could have gone on indefinitely.

[@ShadeSlayer1911]

Legends was probably the last CW show I watched before I completely gave up on the Arrowverse. And I enjoyed it. Just not enough to keep me coming back for seconds. I liked its cast and how they handled most of the characters. From my recollection, they allowed everyone to shine in their own ways and respected every character. The Rory Williams character was also pretty interesting. The action was pretty good too, at least from memory. I just didn't care to see how a second season would lower my overall opinion of them.

[@ArzhurG]

I really enjoyed the last few season of Legends. I watched the other Arrowverse series, but they were more just something to watch. I actually looked forwards to new Legends episodes though. Legends is the only series that I was disappointed when I heard it got cancelled. The others felt like they had just fizzled out, but I would have gladly watched more of the Legends ridiculous antics.

[@DLWalkerActor]

Legends was my absolute favorite of all the arrowverse. It was never preachy, it didn't take itself incredibly seriously, but it was always entertaining.

[@ShadeSlayer1911]

@@DLWalkerActor Early Arrow and Flash were like that too, but Arrow did take itself super seriously. Flash just got too repetitive too quickly, and Arrow collected too many team members. Actually, both shows collected a ton of characters, but most of them weren't very high quality. Legends started off with a ton of characters, but each one seemed to get very solid writing.

[@user-zg6nl7nu4w]

LoT is indeed the superior arrowverse show!

[@BadrAlrawi]

Love it or hate it, you have to give the arrowverse credit. Although it was Shakey at some parts, outputting that much content with all of it sharing 1 continuity is very impressive.

[@chrisaguilera1564]

This is exactly where the MCU is headed.

[@startrekmike]

Not exactly. The CW shows were all pretty rigidly built around a sort of teenage soap opera format with a smattering of somewhat lower budget super hero action for good measure. They were all very much the same at their core and as the video rightly states, they were all going for pretty much the exact same audience demographics. If you are not into the CW style, none of the shows are really going to work for you. That last bit is important and it is where Marvel is quite different. Without really getting into discussions about quality or merit, Marvel has managed to tap into a lot of very different genres and tones for its various films and TV shows with each character's films having their own very distinct flavor. Even the TV shows have gone out of their way to feel wildly different from one another to the point where it can sometimes feel surprisingly "artsy" (for lack of a better word). Obviously Marvel is dealing with its own problems but they have managed to avoid a lot of the pitfalls that the CW shows have consistently managed to fall into.

[@afazekas81]

MCU failed on wokeness, Flash failed on the shitness of the character.

[@afazekas81]

​@@startrekmike Not to mention I didn't like Endgame I think it was garbage compared to the lore. What they did to Thanos. How they overimplify him in Endgame. But what they did to Anti-Montitor to replicate Infinite Crisis?!?! omw! A 90s Power Rangers show looked better...

[@noone6896]

​@@startrekmikeIdk what ur saying but Marvel had only Daredevil and AoS successful as tv show (Daredevil even not part of MCU iirc). All other tv series so far are fail one or another way...

[@startrekmike]

@@noone6896 You are right, you clearly don't know what I am saying in my original comment.

[@parthbansal2775]

CWs 24 episode format has gotten really old. They should compress every season to 8-10 episodes of just good content. That leaves more budget for CGI and more time for writers to come up with every episode

[@spacecraftcarrier4135]

I think even a 12-13 / 15-16 episodes format is better. Enough breathing space for character growth and 3 or 4 Acts per season. Of course some may use the example of the Marvel Netflix shows like Daredevil. However those shows' average episode runtime is about ~50 mins average, while Arrowverse shows' average episode runtime was around ~40 mins. Regardless, the issue isn't just the CW 22-23 episode format; it's also the fact that majority of the main cast of the shows are just the same or similar heroes, without enough screentime dedicated to various villains. (For example, Arrow Season 5 Prometheus was great, but we never got to SEE his origin; instead more runtime was dedicated to fucking Felicity.)

[@sutton4791]

I miss the 20 something format. Shows last for several months this way and you don't have to wait nearly as long for the next season. I've stopped watching a few shows, because I completely forgot they even existed or forgot everything and didn't care to give it another shot. Simply because the next season didn't show up for well over a year. Stranger things was really pushing it, but fortunately that one was actually worth the wait. So many streaming shows don't even have "previously on" and I hate that. Specially when they don't even bother with a season recap.

[@weston407]

@@sutton4791 I remember binging Lost DVDs with my college roommate and a season felt like it went on FOREVER (which it kind of did) - good times

[@justahumanwithamask4089]

@@Themoneyopps I'm watching superman and lois right now and I'm surprised it isn't total shit.

[@ProjektTaku]

@@sutton4791 mate, the 20 something format is way too long, and it makes show devolve into crap. 13 episodes is much, much better.

[@zebedeebalistique7791]

Little corrections : The current Arrowverse has technically 3 shows because Stargirl, despite not being directly connected on TV, has been part of this year crossover, that had to be in comic books for Covid reasons. Second thing, Flash season 9 isn't confirmed yet to be the last season, Eric Wallace aiming for a 10th season already. Finally, the new Arrowverse is actually different. Superman and Lois' producer said that the show was on another Earth that Earth-Prime, and that therefore, this Superman was not the one we saw on Supergirl (yes I know Diggle did show up on Superman and Lois but apparently they don't give a fuck about continuity so they just left the main Earth). However, according to Ramsey, the "new Arrowverse" would be on this precise Earth, where will happen as well the shows Gotham Knights (it's Riverdale but pretending to be a Batman-Like show so that you would watch it) and the future Justice U (that will therefore not feature Arrowverse's characters like Black Lightining's daugther or Tinya from Flash). So apparently, the new goal here is to let the old Arrowverse die, and start a Superverse based on Superman and Lois, and throw away everything that built these shows while acting like they never existed in the first place and that everything is okay.

[@uncannydcmarvelous5732]

Stargirl in the Earth Prime comic was just to introduce that nail villain that Magog later made few clones of him, in the last issue, the "big fight" she wasn't present at all. And I really hope that Gotham Knights bs doesn't end up being in the same continuity as S&L.

[@zebedeebalistique7791]

@@uncannydcmarvelous5732 Still, Stargirl was part of the crossover (and not many heroes from the shows were actually there to fight the bad guys, it was mostly the ones who were not on TV). And it is advertised among all others Arrowverse shows.

[@tuffdude7795]

I really hate that they did that. I get the Arrowverse would have ended eventually and that is fine, but the way they did it was terrible. Superman and Lois should have been disconnected from the start and made clear to be the case. Gotham Knights looks really bad. Justice U I was excited for when it was gonna be Earth Prime. With it being on a new Earth it will be really strange to follow a new Diggle who is so similar to Earth Prime's, but isn't him. I hope Flash season 10 will be it's final season and they can use an event like Armageddon to properly conclude the Arrowverse and The Flash.

[@Alovon]

Hopefully if they do do that, they at least give Barry a proper sendoff as the catalyst for that (While wrapping up his storyline satisifyingly)

[@zebedeebalistique7791]

@@tuffdude7795 I personnaly more hope that someone else will pick up Legends of Tomorrow and that it will keep on going (it could even bring in old Arrowverse characters to kind of give more conclusions).

[@adcamper92]

So I recently learned that Superman and Lois and The Flash are part of two different universes. Flash is canonically part of the Arrowverse but Superman and Lois is the start of the “Superverse” and they’re gonna try to recreate what they’ve done over the last 10 years with Gotham Knights and future programs moving forward. I came into this Arrowverse fandom late but I always loved Legends and how goofy it was.

[@MerkhVision]

Yes to your last sentence! I always appreciated how Legends didn’t take itself too seriously (after season 1) and allowed the writers to have fun doing things they probably couldn’t get away with on other shows.

[@kevin10001]

@@MerkhVision legends was one of the 3 arrowverse shows I watched but it should have had a more consistent cast lineup instead of becoming a dumping ground for characters from other shows that out grew the characters

[@jlev1028]

That's dumb. Superman & Lois acknowledges Crisis.

[@phillipjohnbanguis3849]

Oohh! We're the same. I started watching the Arrowverse in 2020. I guess I can say we are the "Post Crisis" viewers.

[@williamhumes7332]

The real issue is the fact that the writers could have kept the shows' distinctive feels while containing a continuous story with a recurring rouge's gallery that can be interchangeable to the other shows.

[@babs40]

I used to love all of the shows till they really went off the rails. I recently watched Arrow again and I was surprised by how much I loved it. Of course seasons 1 and 2 were the best because they were not super complicated with powers and crazy things but I felt like the series as a whole held up really well. I haven't rewatched the Flash, and I probably won't, but the powers just got way too crazy. Supergirl got way too political, and Legends got too crazy. I liked how Oliver did not have powers, it always grounded the show more than the others. Now that I look back I definitely think Arrow was their best show. Sure, it went off the rails and they should have done way less episodes but I am super impressed with what they did with what they had.

[@ricardokojin7]

Arrow was fine until they decided it was not ok to make Oliver the "main bad ass" and that he had to be kept down so others could rise.

[@SKippySounds]

I really do hope for one final crossover. Considering the Flash "technically" crossed over with Stargirl using Jay Garrick, it wouldn't hurt to see the three surviving shows team up, and also so the characters can learn that the multiverse still exists

[@emc246]

An "Arrowverse 2049" event at some point could be cool. Have Barry's kids help finish the leftover Arrow story and they could pull in younger characters from the other shows if they wanted. With the way Armageddon brought in Mia it looks like it could happen if Flash gets enough episodes.

[@Blazio]

I just want them to wrap up the story of the universe in some way. Would suck if Flash ended without addressing the other shows anymore and that was that.

[@moisesinfantes2797]

I loved the Arowverse shows, I watched them all and talked about them with my friends at school and at church. I tuned in every night to watch these shows on the CW channel. Oh how I remember the good old days, I even got my family to watch a couple of them.

[@vivaraulito]

Supergirl was a fail from the start because they weren’t telling the story of supergirl they were telling the story of Superman but a female version, she’s nothing like how supergirl is in the comics who had to adapt towards wanting to save others instead they gave her the same plot they always give superman in all his shows and movies working for a reporting company in disguise to suit up when trouble arrived and that’s where I have my problems. The actress for supergirl is not even the issue she was amazing she tried her best and honestly I feel she would be a lot better if they gave her another shot and just started over honestly

[@zyaicob]

+

[@MotRekrab1347]

I remember reading another comment somewhere (can't remember where, it was about a year or so ago now), talking about what Supergirl is like in the comics. And as I read it, all I could think of was 'why on Earth did the creators not go with this?' Seriously, Supergirl could have been an amazingly written and interesting character, and I truly believe Melissa Benoist could have carried it off. Got no major issues with Supergirl in general (though that might be because I haven't watched it properly since 2019), but I would have been far more invested in an ACTUAL Supergirl rather than just Superman without a Y chromosone.

[@relo999]

Not only that later Arrowverse, especially supergirl, batgirl and late black lightning suffer from poor political messaging constantly and either made no real sense or went against existing established lore of the show. For example Supergirl had multiple seasons try to do a whole "aliens good, punishing them bad" arch after season one established that pretty much every alien on earth was an escapee from a super-max prison and consistently showing aliens destroying and killing. Supergirl heavily suffered from the "villians" having both much more valid reasons for doing what they're doing and it being the reasonable thing in universe. Batgirl tried to pretend the whole "I don't need no man, I'm my own woman" shtick while quite literally edging on full identity theft of a man, only to replace the person with extensive martial arts training by multiple masters and extensive military experience with a failed homeless martial arts teacher and still playing the whole "I don't need no man" shtick. Black lightning went from "treat people equally regardless of skintone and outspoken against any form of racism" to an outright racist himself because "fuck whitey" after george floyd.

[@TheRealVolk]

Great video! I loved the first season of Arrow because it semi-attempted to be a real world-esque gritty show. Half-way through season 2, when Laurel’s dead sister turns out not to be dead, only to become Canary, I rolled my eyes and checked out. It looks like it all ultimately went to some cool places, but it wasn’t what brought me in. It was the gritty realism. Loved The Batman.

[@jovayutube]

For me, I believe it's a generational thing. When the next generation shows crazy-level interest in superheroes, the CW, Discovery or whatever will invest in such shows again.

[@just__mate]

I found the crossovers to be fun and the early days of the Arrowverse to be great, however the consistent drop of Quality and the staleness of the stories has made me stop even bothering to watch them, which I find to be sad, since I did really enjoy Arrow, Flash and Legends of Tomorrow.

[@thesean161]

There will always be a special spot in my heart for the first couple seasons of arrow

[@Sacciuiguai]

Well said man, season 1 and 2 of arrow were incredibly good. Season 3 started really strong as well but after the mid season finale it went downhill for some reason. I don't know what happened but I still remember I was disappointed and sad to see how different the second part of the third season felt. Well, then season 4 was written by a 8yo kid and personally I don't even consider it as a season. Season 5 was good again but after that it was weird all over until season 8 that was a tribute to the entire show. Arrow had his ups and downs but it would be my guilty pleasure forever.

[@patfer1189]

The problem with the Arrowverse was that what started as shows finding their own individual identity, and then figuring out how to bring them together in events, eventually devolved in homogenizing the product. Arrow was completely grounded and gritty, but the moment Flash appeared they tried to lean hard on 'metahumans' and magic. The problem was that it was too sudden and without explanation when more "scientific" explanations to Solomon Grundy or the Lazarus Pit had worked so much better with that show. A major departure from the incredible first two seasons. Legends started serious, and it was actually good and had a cool concept (heroes that were so irrelevant that they were forgotten to history), but was too much like the other two shows. Season two found the show with a terrific balance of humor and seriousness. But by season 3 they started leaning too hard on the comedy to the point that season 4 on the show was just a sitcom. At that point they stopped trying to create cool stories or making the show a revolving door or more obscure characters (missed opportunity to make one season of a Justice League Dark-esque show when Constantine was brought in). And then there were issues of tone. Season 1 of Flash was fantastic, and 2 was fine if too similar to the first. However by season 3 the CW clearly wanted the show to be the next teen drama and thus started leaning hard on the Barry-Iris romance. Arrow had Olicity too. Supergirl, on the other hand, seemed to be the show created for identity politics, something that their producers never shied from. Maybe it was because it was originally a CBS show but it was clear than whenever they wanted to make political commentary they threw the story to Supergirl. However setup and action was the same as Flash, just with Superman characters. Same for Batwoman and Black Lighting, the latter of which carved a bit of a unique identity but came when Arrowverse fatigue was starting to creep in. The biggest issue is that for every admirable, original crossover or mid or season finale event there were ton more moments when the shows were just spinning their wheels. For every first and second season of Arrow, first of Flash, or second of Legends, where you could see momentum and character evolution, the status quo took center stage with producers not eager to take chances. Yes, at one point WB was to blame with their stupid restrictions on certain characters such as not allowing Berlanti and company to use the Suicide Squad anymore, because of a movie that would not come out for another year and a half, or prohibiting the producers for having Deathstroke featured again because of a Batman movie that never came to be. Nonetheless, it did feel that, outside of 'events', writers and producers were not venturing far from the formula and at times seemed even afraid of fully committing to the comic book nature of its characters and premise. Ultimately, the Arrowverse was a great attempt at something so ambitious, not seen since the days of the Stargate series, at a much larger scale. And it was always welcomed when they would execute the feature-film-large crossover event on the small screen. The scope was great even if the ideas and budgets weren't there, and for a while in the early years, the sense of ambition would permeate through the screen.

[@accidentalmadness1708]

Arrow having metahumans never really bothered me because it was always the weaker ones like black canary mk3 (canary cry) and vigilante (inconsistent healing?). Outside of that I’m with ya.

[@Chaosmancer7]

Gods, the turn to nothing but humor for Legends bothered the crap out of me. I don't want my shows serious all the time, and comics can be goofy, but seriously, DC either is super dark and gritty with teenage angst and murder, or it is a laugh track with dancing clowns. It so rarely hits a good middle.

[@TheAnanaki]

Almost every point I could possibly articulate myself was just made w this comment and you even elaborated on it. Spot on.

[@accidentalmadness1708]

@@Chaosmancer7 legends became real weak in those last few seasons. There’s still some fun moments but that’s it.

[@Blazio]

Well said

[@rajd9016]

The first 2-3 seasons were always great for every Arrowverse show, then they would begin to implode. The Flash was one of my favorite shows, never thought I would quit watching.

[@Banana_Peel]

I think the same problem is happening with the MCU. Too many shows, too many character, and not a lot of what we originally fell in love with.

[@afazekas81]

MCU failed on wokeness, Flash failed on the shitness of the character.

[@uchihabomber1296]

I did actually enjoy the fact that they were all apart of the same universe for some reason and honestly I did have fun with their yearly crossover events because for some reason I considered those as entertaining episodes for me.

[@Kunalalal]

you are a part of very small community. Majority did not like it. I particularly got frustrated by the crossovers. Its just like someone forcefully changed the channel that I wanted to watch.

[@ImaginaryNate]

@@Kunalalal Id actually disagree with you. He’s part of the bigger majority. Most of the fans didn’t care for the singular episodes of the solo shows, but always tuned in regularly for the crossovers. I remember crossovers would be the biggest thing of the year for the Arrowverse each year, and they always held up, some more than others obviously, but always had something good going for each one.

[@Kunalalal]

@@ImaginaryNate Still the bigger majority that you are talking about is smaller than the majority of crossover dislikers.

[@eduardosantiago6948]

@@Kunalalal I literally never heard anyone complaining about the crossovers. Specially in social media, corssovers were always a big thing and were peak audience

[@fansee1368]

Given recent news about Superman & Lois having to share the same universe as Gotham Knights, I'm convinced that the CW doesn't know what to do anymore Imagine ditching an opportunity to cross over this perfect Superman with a new Batman

[@Carabas72]

What makes you think the CW has the rights to Batman?

[@MultiArchangel]

What?! They couldn't be that stupid.

[@TF2Fan101]

Pretty sure that Gotham Knights won’t even last one season.

[@julianoviedo3104]

Please tell me that's not true. Also Batman is dead in gotham knights

[@uncannydcmarvelous5732]

@@Carabas72 Fox owns the tv rights of Batman (no idea how does that work now that Disney owns Fox).

[@ScottWaa]

Turns out when you hire terrible writers, ignore the majority of the fans and cater to the smallest demographic of people... People stop watching.

[@YourProfessional-Gachagamer]

"mAjOriTY" You know there's more places than the US, white boy ?

[@Ironcabbit]

Black Lightning was the only CW Arrowverse show that never made me roll my eyes or facepalm. I was very sorry to see it go.

[@montycarlobabe]

I agree. I wish the spinoff with painkiller would of happened, or a lightning and thunder series

[@adame7843]

Kinda felt like watching a good friend go down a downward spiral. You wanna be supportive at first, but after a while you just can't watch anymore

[@jeffreyhyder2429]

My kids and I loved The Flash but it jumped the shark many seasons ago. It should have ended after Crisis but it’s just dragged on. I love Grant as The Flash and I hope he is cast in a movie someday.

[@nhmooytis7058]

He should be in the movie not creepy Ezra.

[@tomo3387]

Tuning into the flash every week with my dad and brother will always be a good memory 🙏🏽

[@kedrprao]

I will never forget one iconic line from Arrow - "I am cupid...stupid...!" 😂

[@OWG1969]

Biggest issue for me was deciphering which ones to watch in which order because they never told you which one was next in the crossovers. You had to be watching them all as they aired. For a person with streaming that didn’t work

[@dramonmaster222]

It is sad to see the Arrowverse come to an end but nothing lasts forever.

[@zachryder3150]

Thankfully S&L and Stargirl are free from all this baggage!

[@Mr.Witness]

😂😂

[@filmswithclass7275]

@@BabaV2000 whose watching superman and lois lmao 🤣

[@nalday2534]

@@filmswithclass7275 more folks watching that than snyderverse

[@filmswithclass7275]

@@nalday2534 i watch the DC films more than the shows. I really liked arrow and the flash but both started going down hill around or after season 3 imo. I enjoyed despite its short comings with what they could do but man the felicity arc was super annoying 😒 she went from a favorite character of mine to least, especially when her and her mom were together

[@nalday2534]

@@filmswithclass7275 arrow and flash were garbage. Superman & Lois is the only good cw DC show

[@Rickkysimo]

I'm one of those people that watched every episodes of every show lol I will miss the good times I had with these shows.

[@BestgirlJordanfish]

I really adored the Arrowverse so much and it's a damn shame they never got to have a Titans, Outlaws, or Outsiders series. Would have been too perfect since all of those stories are also about moody hot people with little moments of human levity.

[@uncannydcmarvelous5732]

And the actual Titans series is kind of a mess.

[@Noms_Chompsky]

@@uncannydcmarvelous5732 What bums me out is that Superman and Lois and Naomi are also high production value garbage like Titans. They best leave their grubby hands off my Doom patrol or I'll cry.

[@BestgirlJordanfish]

@@uncannydcmarvelous5732 Fr. It really wanted to be a black label Gotham outsiders story with extra darkness. Even more reasoning I wish it was produced and released in CW

[@ProjektTaku]

@@Noms_Chompsky I actually like superman & lois. Much better than any modern arrowverse show.

[@ProjektTaku]

​@@BestgirlJordanfish why?

[@TevyaSmolka]

Its sad to see the arrowverse now officially be dead but honestly all good things must come to a end eventually.

[@Chaosmancer7]

My mother was watching the Arrowverse stuff for a while on netflix and other streaming services. She had to get a pad of paper and write out the order of the shows to watch, because she couldn't just watch one show. And, in fact, they committed one of the greatest cross-over sins of all time, IMO. Flash marrying his love interest? It didn't happen on Flash. Flash's marriage and I think Arrow's marriage both happened on Legends of Tomorrow, during a crossover event. So, if you were just watching Flash? You say them planning the wedding, agonizing over the wedding, then talking about how thier wedding two weeks ago was so wild and now they are married. The idea of a crossover universe is always cool, it is something we always want to see. But the problem is also always obvious and always happens. You begin requiring people to watch the other shows. You could not just watch Flash, and get the full story, you had to watch Arrow, Legends, and Supergirl, which if you hadn't started those, you had to go back and sometimes watch multiple seasons of another show, just to get the context of what was happening so you could enjoy the show you wanted to watch. At that point? You are better off making a single show, with multiple interconnected stories that has some episodes focusing on different characters.

[@antiloser-NFS]

like a Justice League show where you can focus on a different character each episode and have some team-up episodes here and there. That would be great.

[@menthreid1296]

Yeah like once up on a time each season was about someone new and intergrating the past and present ... it was really enjoyable the only issue is that it became repativie like we saw the same flash back.... like with arrow how many times they rewrote what happened on the island and dispite him not being honest about what actually happened and it is a villian from his past ... flash was really good and for most of it was sitting at the edge of my seat... after flashpoint ... it became fraustrating to watch personally i would have screamed at all his friends....i never watch batgirl when i saw the cross over for that i legit did not care about following the order any more i just wanted to finish what i was already watching... i gave up on legens of tommarrow after seasone one and i am taking my time to watch the rest of flash and supergirl at this point i will start fastfowarding to finish the story... i do want to watch consantine the tv show but not on anything in uk... arrow is the only ine i acctually finished 😂... well if we are counting lucifer as part of the arrow verse i finished that too in fact i am rewatching it ... i agree that if all the show were condenced into one tv show with fewer eposides and pointless villians it would be easier to watch all of it... as i said once up on a time did all the fairytale in one show and it was brilliant snow and charming were boring after awhile but at least i could finish the show... i even watch the spin off two season of once up on a time in wonderland xxx

[@cedricfowler3465]

Arrow's quality went down in Season 3 when the writers moved to the Flash. Maybe the network took too many projects and bit off more than they could chew.

[@itsalwayssomething7490]

But, those first two seasons were fire. Really, as soon as he stopped being Batman-like and they introduced the romance aspect of the show, it went down in quality. They went from trying to appeal to teenage boys, to teenage girls.

[@laigron7884]

@@itsalwayssomething7490 Honestly i was hoping that they utilize on league of assasins plot. League of assasins should either come later or be recuring antagonist. Oliver defeated Ras-Al Ghul most skilled warrior in the world with hundreds of years of experince he should be night unbeatable. So for me it was logical that magic weilding Darkh would be next antagonist. But next one just straight up defeated him.?? Plus his team contesting his decisions. I stopped watsching after season 4 so if iam not correct that Prometheus was just guy than iam sorry in that.

[@patrickiamonfire965]

This happens because business in suits controls the creative rather than the writers and lessoning the audience feedback. They either want to shape the customers or they feel they know best to justify their salaries. Or it’s just power with false hope possible merits.

[@davidtucker9498]

No, the writing went sour LONG before the crossover stuff...

[@kevin10001]

The shows got bad around season 3 with supergirl just being a gender swapped Superman flash was still being told to run faster cause the villain was a speedster who could use his powers better then Barry arrow was Batman lite legends being bumbling idiots who should have gotten more competent over time but didn’t the led more into the teen soap drama and didn’t balance well with the action which got old over time if they would have done updated version of Lois and Clark the new adventures of Superman in tone and actually let supergirl flash and arrow be those characters more then just in name only they would have had great shows

[@phabiorules]

To be fair, I don't think you can blame it all on the suits. Some of the shows had pretty bad writing (you know which batwoman line I'm referring to).

[@patrickiamonfire965]

@@phabiorules true not all of them are on suits but majority of them are. Some have bad writing and are fixed by the suits but those are rare cases to a point they can be used on those cases.

[@Norbingel]

I quit it in S01. Early on, the supposed geniuses tested Barry's powers by strapping some "safety gear" on him more suited for skateboarders but despite having little to no idea what kind of punishment his body could take (which as far as they knew was just average human dude), told him to just have at it. Then, of course, there's the whole wild inconsistency of his speed (ranging from being a "blur" that people could easily see to so fast they have no idea he's even there even as he's talking to them and which speeds have been shown to knock cars aside and do significant damage to nearby objects. Can run literal whirlwinds around some opponents, gets hit by punches from non-speedsters. And Arrow was just hilarious in how everybody else learned to become ace archers so quickly.

[@DerkDurski]

I remember religiously watching every episode that came out with my college roommate in freshman year. I think at the time they had 4 shows going: Arrow, Flash, Legends, and Supergirl. They ran 4 new episodes every week and we were ridiculously invested, especially when they did the 4-part specials. Shame that they couldn't keep that magic that had us so engrossed for so long.

[@CloneSpartan1998]

Everything went down when Arrow coincidently ended, I could be wrong. Aside from Superman and Lois being alright so far, Flash is just doing too much with Timeline threats mostly caused by Barry or his "future family" apparently, and Legends well aside from Beebo I don't have to talk about how weird it got since that's self-explanatory.

[@Dr.Yakub22]

Can’t believe we had 8 seasons of the flash while daredevil didn’t even get a season 4 and is getting rebooted

[@killerassassin]

Wtf I didn't know they gonna reboot it y it's a great show it needs more seasons not a reboot

[@FablestoneSeries]

@@killerassassin its a soft reboot not a from scratch reboot. They are calling it a "new yet continued show". as per their agreement with Netflix they have to change SOME things.

[@gazem_3211]

Its sad Daredevil got canceled, but in the bright side, it ended on a high note and not a cliffhanger which completely invalidated Murdock's victory.

[@FablestoneSeries]

@@gazem_3211 Netflix only had the license for 5 years and there was no way Disney was going to let them renew it after they launched Disney Plus. Disney pulled the plug them, not netflix. Daredevil isn't cancelled. it is coming back soon with a soft reboot.

[@TheZinmo]

It is ironic, that the one show that always tried to attack the cliche head-on, that took itself absolutely not serious, and where absolutely everthing could happen - Legends - was cancelled too. That one was many things, but never bland or repedititive. But then, its ratings were never stellar...

[@nzgberg]

Try doom patrol. It’s like legends except much weirder.

[@TheZinmo]

@@nzgberg Already there. 😉

[@bardofely]

I have been a fan of superheroes, especially DC Comics ones, since I was a boy and I am now aged 69. I have really enjoyed all the series set in the Arrowverse and Arrow is one of of my favourite TV series of any type ever! The crossovers worked well for me by introducing me to other superhero characters. This happened with Black Lightning, another excellent series. btw, I think Greg Berlanti is a brilliant producer and writer. I am a fan of his work. I am very sad to see the Arrowverse series all ending. With characters getting resurrected and time lines allowing for all sorts of amazing changes to the universes, I can only hope some of the Arrowverse superheroes will come back in future somehow!

[@SilverDangerRanger33457]

Arrow season 1-3,5 and half of 6,7,8 are elite TV and Legends is so underrated

[@aspirerms8280]

I remember when I first got into the Flash, unaware of how it was actually connected to other shows. Good times. I have to admit, it was amazing how the CW managed a shared universe consisting of TV series. Marvel does it well with movies, DC does it well with TV shows.

[@fofoflashy3383]

Lmaooo when i watched the flash 1x4 for the first time it said "previously on the flash" but it showed flashbacks from the arrow episode (3x08) so i spent like 2hrs searching ffor the "missing episode" bc i thought the website named it 4 by mistake 🤣🤣🤣😍

[@Newjerseydestroyer]

Its crazy how Smallville is still DC's best tv show

[@bendakstarkiller1270]

That's because Smallville started in 2001, when the market was not saturated with superhero content and CGI was not what it is today. Also it was about the most iconic hero ever and even that didn't save it from deteriorating. The first few seasons were great but then, I think after season 4 or 5 they started to care less. There were less and less iconic songs used, every problem came from Lexcorp; season 8 was spent on building up Doomsday as the main threat only to not have a showdown with Clark- he gets punched 2 times and grabs Doomsday by the waist and jumps away with him- THE END. Same with the final season- building up Darkside to end up showing Lionel Luthor possessed by Darkside, looking liek a zombie crackhead...

[@lifeisberserk9566]

Your DAMN RIGHT brother

[@jaalinah]

stargirl and titans isn't that bad tho? titans was off to a great start but in all honesty it was ruined when jason todd turned dark. also, dick grayson was really a d!ck. the bad guys in stargirl look really cool and the acting is peak, the characters have nice backstories and motives. the story focuses on actual superheroics and backstories instead of mediocre pep talks and love interests. if i would have to rank the three of them...: 1. stargirl 2. smallville 3. titans these three shows will always be in my heart

[@diazcastro7331]

@@bendakstarkiller1270 He was unpredictable that's why it was good show . He was not your everyday superman

[@dinahwestallen]

It isn't, it was ambitious but the soapy aspect ruined it. Flash is the best season 1-4

[@StoneyHoliday]

The Arrowverse died for me in season 2 the moment Felicity showed up.

[@Dantheman-bw8hv]

What? I love Felicity!

[@theharv1490]

Once Felicity got with Ray and married Oliver, I turned on her cuz she was soooo annoying

[@treyvoncodeine9181]

thank you for not overly shitting on the cw seems to be the move nowadays you were respectful in your criticisms and gave the cw its props for making something of its size a little bit of positive 🖤

[@itsalwayssomething7490]

Yeah. I mean it was really great for a while. And they were killing the TV market while Marvel had the movies.

[@treyvoncodeine9181]

@@itsalwayssomething7490 agreed

[@seancarter51]

The casting and origin stories of each Arrowverse character was peak perfection which showcased that the people responsible behind these series actually did their homework and made them feel that they were taken out straight out of comic books.

[@roseyshades96]

The biggest problem that even the CW ignored themselves was the fact each show had one problem and that was the characters were either too stupid or somehow suffered due to the plots terrible writing to fix certain conflicts. Like how many times do we need to hear that Berry should run faster to fix a problem or do something he should already know? How many times does Oliver get into dumb drama over things he should have already explained? There is also times where villians didn't make sense such as villians managing to escape after The Flash looks away for a single second just got old especially when you see these characters do crazy feats that should make most conflicts and drama impossble but they somehow someway find a way for it to happen away within the plot. This stuff kills shows because rather then make you want to enjoy it you are constantly ranting and thinking about what else can possibly happen to hold the characters back for yet again another episode over and over. ( For example there is no way Berry aka The Flash a man who can stop time by standing still should be getting blind sided or fail to capture someone running normally on foot with visibly no superspeed or anything but Berry just goes from smart to stupid episode by episode. ) It also didn't help that when fans who geniually liked the show were just called haters by the actors and writers and ignored as they continue doing those same problems on repeat for seasons on end. Now it becomes a debate rather were these shows good at the beginning or were they always just hot piles of streamed garbage?

[@dcworld4349]

You forgot Stargirl is also in the arrowverse, just on a different earth just like superman and lois being on another earth. No they can't recreate it, because one of the reasons it worked was the lack of that type of media. Now there is at minimum 2 or 3 superhero things to watch in any given month. People are now starting to complain about having to watch D+ shows saying they don't have time. Even though they are just slightly longer than 1 hour more of a movie. They are not going to get a mass audience again to be invested like that for roughly 18 hours per show across multiple shows.

[@josegoncalves4319]

So.... Nerdstalgic, I don't think you have heard... but the Season finale of superman and lois confirmed it takes places on another earth.

[@AJ-xc4qe]

I would've been fine with it if they didn't keep bringing back Diggle and mentioning Oliver and the Crisis multiple times. So now its' retcons make no sense! Blame WB, not the writers, for never doing a damn thing right with the DC brand!

[@IronIsKing]

Does not change the fact that it's still a cw show.

[@josegoncalves4319]

@@IronIsKing it changes the fact it's not arrowverse. It's important to make the difference because they are just about to release another show called Gotham Knights which will take place on Superman and Lois Earth... Which means, they are just trying to reset everything and try again instead of just giving up.

[@josegoncalves4319]

@@IronIsKingand it implies flash as the last remaining ARROWVERSE show, will surely soon end.

[@Noms_Chompsky]

I gave up on Superman and Lois maybe four or five episodes in on season 2, but I think that finale was because of everyone moaning why Lois never called Supergirl or anyone else for help relying on Steel who wanted Supes dead or at the very least just warned Kara about the Kryptonian stuff going down.

[@ichigotenshouyt2821]

I find the arrowverse quite enjoyable honestly. The bad stuffs weren't too bad tbh. Although there's the poor writing problem sometimes which is annoying. You can tell sometimes that the showrunners doesn't know what to do. Overall though it's pretty good. It kinda felt like a longer version of the Infinity Saga.

[@phoenixc6812]

I feel like the arrow verse down fall was then introducing to many sidekicks every season they just introduced a new group of characters every season that became apart of the team

[@katyarg9591]

God i can feel the nostalgia..... Even though i haven't seen many of the shows.... Just some arrows and flash..... And then i started getting confused ..... But The nostalgic feel is real

[@jackrobins8756]

I’m a big supporter of the Arrowverse. Currently rewatching the whole thing. I’m on Arrow S1 and I’ll watch the whole of that then all of Flash, Supergirl, Legends, Batwoman, Black Lightning, Superman and Lois and Stargirl. I personally love the franchise

[@zelarsey]

I think for most of us, personally myself, arrowverse is a comfort series. Mainly because we started watching them when we were just teenagers. I love the nostalgia it brings and the beautiful things they teach throughout the episodes. I could rewatch the whole thing for the third time and it would still be fun.

[@jackrobins8756]

@@zelarsey yes absolutely. I might try it soon. I got distracted so not sure what to watch these days haha

[@zelarsey]

@@jackrobins8756 I’m almost done with my second time!! If you decide to rewatch then have fun it’s definitely worth it

[@jackrobins8756]

@@zelarsey I’m going to start my rewatch tomorrow

[@jackrobins8756]

@@zelarseyif I was to rewatch. Should I just watch Arrow then Flash, Supergirl etc? I want to watch it but it’s the long episodes that’s stopping me.

[@mkno2799]

"A darker and grounded take on arrow." Well this premise didn't age well. Since his death involved him turning into "bootleg master jedi".

[@bjarkisteinnpetursson9736]

I remember liking Arrow and The Flash in their initial seasons but that had more to do with me being 13 (and starved for weekly superhero content) when this universe started than any semblence of quality. It was never good. I'm honestly shocked it lasted this long and had this many consecutive shows. But as impressive as it is from a production standpoint, I think the Arrowverse will never be more than a footnote in the history of on-screen superhero adaptations.

[@chrismoore4724]

I would say Season 1 and 2 of Arrow are quality TV, the show starts to dip starting with season 3

[@ofribarak2005]

Legends of tomorrow is one of my favorite shows ever and I couldn't believe that they were canceling it. 😭😭😭

[@always_incognito0710]

0:41 I did not expect to leave this video much wiser than I began it... Damn...

[@supreme84x]

The problem for me is that they chose to add additional shows focused on characters I didn't care about and were too much alike. After Flash, I only really liked the new Superman show.

[@blackfyre8837]

Liked Flash and Arrow, there were like live action monster/villains of the week shows I used to watch. Then for some reason it went south.

[@H.V.C_Shino]

It was always bad wtf

[@MerkhVision]

@@H.V.C_Shino it was never bad wtf

[@GreenPlasma]

I didnt get into most of the arrowverse shows. I watched all of Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow. Arrow was darker and grittier with seasons 2 and 5 being my favorites. Legends went it's own way after the first season and had no restrictions to what the episodes could be about (aliens, demons, unicorns, star wars never being made). I enjoyed it and wish they could have gotten one more season to give a solid conclusion. I only watched the first 2 season of flash before I got tired of the flash having to get faster to beat another evil not flash. I toughed my way through watching the Armageddon episodes and the writing was bad. Atleast they "leveled up" through it though.

[@brianmulholland2467]

The real problem with the Arrowverse is the complete lack of commitment to hiring competent writers. The acting was good, especially among the core case of each show. The effects (considering the size of the budget) were actually pretty solid. I mean, sure, they weren't movie caliber effects, but for 22 episode shows on a small network? They were more than sufficient. They had humor, they were the most true-to-comics adaptations in the sense that these shows FELT like comic books (in good ways and bad). But the consistent failure was the writing. The show forgot it's own continuity, sometimes in it's own show. For example, how many times has Barry learned the consequences of time travel? Characters would frequently forget their own motivations or abilities for the convenience of the freak of the week plot. I have vague memories of a character in one scene opposing the main character's actions, and then later in the same show being angry that the main character didn't do exactly what that...with nothing changing between the scenes. I wish I could remember the specifics. I think it was James on Supergirl. Wonderful ideas for long term plot exploration would be brought in from the comics and then burned for a single one-off episode that generally didn't resolve the problem in any satisfying way. An example that sticks in my head is the idea to have Kara have anger issues in season 1, which for a character that powerful is a HUGE character flaw that could raise all kinds of interesting storylines ... ooops, nevermind. Resolved in one scene by a single speech from Cat and never spoken of again in 6 seasons. Or in season 3 when the Cult of Rao emerges...what a wonderful idea! Of course godlike powered heroes would inspire religions. What an opportunity to explore the good and bad of religion and show how it affects our protagonist ... ooops, nevermind. Resolved in one episode with a cheesy bomb plot. Opportunities for amazing character arcs are almost always ruined. When Killer Frost has what ... 3? 4 different origin stories? In the same show? Each of which portray the character in a different light. We could have had a really interesting story about self-fulfilling prophecies as caitlyn's own fear of becoming frost drove her to violence and criminality and there was indeed no compulsion. But instead of having the character have agency, the show took all responsibility away by making her an alternative personality...and eventually a second person entirely. Even the Arrowverse's GOOD seasons (and they are few in number) weren't THAT good. They just FELT that good because there was no other serious TV superhero drama to compete. Flash Season 1 is easily their highwater mark, but ... come on, even that season had sloppy writing. You just don't remember it because you excused it at the time. Go back and watch. Really, all of their sins could have been avoided had they just taken a little of the money they spent on actors and hired some competent writers. Not great. I'm not unreasonable. Just COMPETENT.

[@fenrirsrage4609]

Im glad you talked about the part of Arrowverse Barry Allen being a composite of OG Barry and Wally West. Although taking more from Wally dueto being the one who was flash the longer. It's kinda sad how after that, Wally was discarded and Barry had the complete spotlight with now either people have no idea what to do with him or just beating him while he's down

[@maverickman6486]

The real reason arrowverse failed was when started focusing on being woke instead of producing good shows.

[@aquarius3387]

I hope that the Cw makes more DC shows and hopefully we get some type of Justice League Tv show

[@L.Reeves]

Solid insights, but you're wrong. The downfall began and ended with the attitude of the studio. Once they started caring more about forced diversity and woke virtue signaling instead of the more basic consideration of just making good content, they irreparably fucked things up. They never learned their lesson with green lantern. It looked like they did at first. It really did. They left that trainwreck of a green lantern movie where they were pushing a concept (to start the DC EU) and and it looked full like they realized they forgot to make a character as compelling as tony stark in their desperate desire to repurpose Ryan Reynolds as an arrogant flyboy to be the cornerstone of their new franchise. Needless to say when that flopped as hard as they did they probably did some soul searching and knew if they fucked up their next project they'd be lucky to even find jobs flipping burgers in that town. So they put some effort into arrow; and flash. They made two well rounded, engaging characters as compelling to watch as Tom Welling's superman. Then they stopped caring about quality and started caring about diversity and pointless woke politics. And they put the cart before the horse. AGAIN. And when THAT became their focus rather than simple fundamentals like good story and good characters, all their undeserved ambition and all the plates they were currently spinning came crashing down around them as they tried to push some new age cult on audiences rather than just doing their jobs as best they could. TLDR: The Arrowverse collapsed because of self centered cultist ideation and toxic woke politics. No more no less.

[@jameslynch2399]

Covid had a major effect on the shared universe. Almost all the shows had to abruptly end their seasons and leave things dangling, then try to pick them back up a year later. The writing was awkward, trying to adhere to Covid protocols and tie up threads (Batwoman might have been hit the worst there, as it was cut off mid story arc and then its lead actor declined to return, leading to a need to completely reinvent the series in the middle of a story). Planned crossovers had to be scrapped just as the franchise, coming out of Crisis, was poised to become bigger and more closely connected than ever. Shows that were already infamous for multiple breaks during each season suddenly couldn't go more than 2 weeks of new episodes without taking a break for 3.

[@TrashTrackers]

I remember being super pumped for The Flash, and was obsessed with it and Supergirl, then Legends Of Tomorrow. I gave up halfway through season 3 of Supergirl, and watched multiple seasons of The Flash, Legends, and Black Lighting. I stopped watching them one by one because they stopped being fun, consistent, and exciting. It's disappointing because all these shows had great acting, but lacked momentum, their solid feel, and all felt very forced with an agenda. It's sad how quickly it all fell apart. Great work on the video!

[@TheDragonman104]

My main issue with the new The Flash seasons is the characters and the actors. The characters just weren’t likeable or interesting enough to keep my attention throughout the newer seasons and the actors didn’t keep them likeable enough for me to keep on watching. I just finished watching Supernatural and I’m on the last season of Smallville, and I can’t get past season 5 of The Flash. And The Flash was the very first show I started watching!

[@xm9968]

Well, I am sorry to hear that one, dude. I gave up on the CW's "Flash" after season five, DC's "Legends of Tomorrow" after season four, CW's "Supergirl" after its' fourth season. Arrow, I had finished watching its' eighth and final season and I didn't watch a single episode of CW's "Batwoman."

[@TheDragonman104]

@@xm9968 Thanks. I mainly watched those the three shows just to see some action and the monster/villain-of-the-week. But Supernatural kept me invested for how lovable and strong the characters are, the heart-warming moments in it, and how they aren’t afraid to get comedic. Smallville kept me invested because the characters were strong, the stories were interesting, and I want to see the main hero reach his goal. The Flash, however, didn’t have much interesting the stories, I started finding the characters getting stale to the point where I just don’t care what happens to them, and the main hero doesn’t have any real motivation anymore now outside of just stopping the big bad.

[@kermitgotthesickkicks4265]

@@TheDragonman104 I think you should still keep watching legends of tomorrow if you have started it.

[@TheDragonman104]

@@kermitgotthesickkicks4265 I never said I started watching Legends of Tomorrow.

[@terrancehall9762]

It lasted 10 years. A very good run.

[@junothang5546]

I feel like this video doesn’t actually look at the reasons for the downfall of the CW. Yes, there were too many big crossovers, but that wasn’t the reason the shows were cancelled. He makes it seem like the arrow verse was a juggernaut of hood tv, it wasn’t. Arrow had 8 seasons. Season 1,2, and 5 were good. Flash is still running, only season 1 and 2 were good. Supergirl season 1 was alright, but it kept getting worse. Legends season 2 was good but none of the other seasons (some people like it, but I wasn’t a fan of the show.) the arrow verse failed from having 23 episodes per season when every episode was 40 minutes long. The CW needed to have 12 episode seasons like daredevil, so the writers had more time to write a good story. We saw that they could with the first 2 seasons of the arrow. Extra - I wanted to add in that some shows just sucked too. Batgirl or bat woman was just awful. The CW failed from shitty writing period.

[@Flaris]

It is kind of funny. Despite the title...it really doesn't remotely touch on the actual fall of the CW. Just acting like the shows were chugging along amazingly and then suddenly were cancelled because of mergers. It feels like we're watching a video from someone from another universe where the Arrowverse was the pinnacle of TV. This gets it. The problem for the Arrowverse is that most of their shows were only good for a couple seasons. It had too many episodes without good enough writing to cover for it. Dragging out plots that didn't need that many episodes to resolve with a lot of pointless filler in the middle. They weren't always bad. Arrow especially had some amazing early seasons and same goes for Flash really. But the good ran out fast and these poor shows were left stumbling around. Fans left hurting as they watched them die a slow death.

[@charlesray5949]

As a matter of fact I remember having a nagging feeling they were going to somehow integrate Supergirl into the CW. If you go back to season 2 of the Flash episode 13 I think, It's the zoom season when Barry traveled to Earth-2 through something known as the looking glass. If you pay close attention to the portal he's traveling through you will see Supergirl flying, at that time the show was airing on CBS.

[@Kerorofan1990]

I knew it was dead the second they cancelled the best show they had, Legends Of Tomorrow.

[@hunterkiller1440]

After watching the first episode of the CWB Flash and how desperate Arrow was trying to be Nolan Batman, its cracks were already apparent to me. Pity it took everyone that long to see it.

[@jessemanchester8549]

Pretty simple. Everything has to come to an end. and TV endings are always the worst. And if it makes money, they will mine it for all its worth until it's worth nothing. That is where we are. Personally I am surprised it limped this far. I had to stop watching around 2019? It just felt like a job keeping up with all the teeny soaps every, single, day, of, the, week.

[@Sabretooth-gz7pp]

As a Fan of Comics, You can only Deal with The Wokeness for so Long 🤨.

[@aka_slendy]

the saddest part about the downfall of the Arrowverse is the protentional each show had. which we now know is possible because of the new Clark & Lois show. it's like a slap in the face to fans.

[@DarthBenneth]

I definitely felt the fatigue after Arrow ended. The Flash had lost its magic, Legends became a joke, Supergirl became too political (even though I actually liked the later seasons more), and I couldn't even pick up Batwoman or Black Lightning because of this burnout. I hadn't picked up anything since until hearing about Superman & Lois. Just finished the first season on HBO and, though it is in the same universe with the same characters, it feels so much different than the other Arrowverse shows because of the setting and scale of it. Less episodes made for a more focused season, there was no Team Superman or any ridiculous lair, no constant corny intro to reiterate "I'm the fastest man alive" or "I need to be something else", it was just a show about the Kents taking care of their family. Surprisingly a breath of fresh air, even though some (not all) relationship tropes remained the same. I enjoyed the first season and am looking forward to binging the second season on HBO soon. Hope the magic doesn't leave this show like it has left so many others at this point.