Nissan Leaf Battery Module Capacity Test

[@justin_time]

Cool video! I found this other video of a third party company that makes a device to update/flash/change the software on older Nissan Leafs to accept newer, higher capacity batteries than what the old ones came with from the factory (even though Nissan says this is impossible). I wonder if you could buy more battery packs that are 50% degraded like your existing ones and just string them together with the old ones to effectively make a larger battery? I don't know what the dimensions on the inside of your battery pack look like in terms of allowing for additional battery packs and if the car could handle the extra weight of more packs, but maybe it could help for future projects? Anywho, here is the video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/d53bq5-HnNSpi6M Thanks again for posting this content!

[@InnovativeSustainableSolutions]

I'm familiar with EVs enhanced. I don't know how they procured their budget to develop their own software and hardware, but they seem to have done a really good job of it. I love the plug they built to trick the vehicles BMS into thinking whatever battery we bolt under the vehicle is supposed to be there. I think you might actually HAVE to use EV Enhanced's plug to get the 2013 Leaf battery pack from the first EconomEV (the junkyard one) to successfully pair (from a software prespective) with my 2011 for example. Kudos to them on making that product. I see the value in it, and hope I will get a chance to do a video where I use it for a full battery swap. As far as using multiple packs: The problem you run into is weight. The packs weighs around 370 pounds, if you only use the modules and ditch the large encasing shell (600 plus lbs all together) Your returns start to diminish very quickly as you add this weight to the vehicle. I think if you removed the weight from the vehicle itself and put 2 or 3 60% packs in a small utility trailer, coated the exterior with solar panels, and made a trailer hitch jack that connected fairly quickly to the vehicle that might work. A kind of EV road trip kit/large portable powerwall. Under $10K, tons of utility, only carry the weight of the batteries when you need the range. Thank you for the SEO time recommendation. It seems to have worked :)

[@rhmagalhaes]

Soon those guys will make a Tesla Battery pack work on a Nissan Leaf.... LOL. Amazing technology.

[@Xyquest]

A Chevy SparkEV or Fiat 500E has the same battery chemistry with active cooling. There are way more used leafs out there though.

[@DalasEVRepair]

Sadly a partial refresh is not gonna do as much as you'd like. The age/heat brings down all the cells from the 2011-2013 packs way more, so you'd have to replace them all. However, if you really are keen on doing this, switch out the rear stack batteries. These always gets hotter than the rest due to the placement.

[@InnovativeSustainableSolutions]

This is the kind of feedback I like. What specifically makes you say the rear stack (24 modules I think) is the one that gets the hottest, and thus suffers the most degradation?

[@DalasEVRepair]

@@InnovativeSustainableSolutions This overheating behaviour is extremely easy to witness on the 30kWh pack, since it is more prone to rapid degradation after many successive fastcharges. You can read more about it here, but the same thing would apply to the 24kWh pack in your climate evsenhanced.com/services/30kwh-leaf-cell-imbalance-and-complete-cell-failure/ One easy fast and rough way to check which cells are weakest in your pack, simply take a leafspy reading of the cell voltages when the car is really discharged. The lowest capacity cells will be the lowest ones. I've tinkered a bit with the internals of the leaf battery, you can read more here if you like www.japtoys.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3613

[@InnovativeSustainableSolutions]

@@DalasEVRepair What a an awesome log! You've been going at this older Leafs for a while. You made a critical error in revealing that you know what you're talking about though. Now I'm gonna pester you with questions when I run into something I can't figure out.

[@DalasEVRepair]

@@InnovativeSustainableSolutions Sounds good, I love the suneater :D

[@bocadelcieloplaya3852]

@@DalasEVRepair , what info is out there describing the critical temperature that causes Nissan battery module degradation versus the average temperature for the cell? is the high temperature encountered primarily during charging or driving?

[@rhmagalhaes]

The amount of videos about refurbishing Nissan Leaves (LOL) is amazing. I saw one where the guy opened the module, connected wires bypassing the computer so he could get the total from external + original SOC in his dashboard. He fooled the cars computer. Amazing and tons of work. You really need to consider get a new battery. I know that you want to extend and experiment, but it will get to a point that you'll break even... Better do the math and you still can put the old battery at home. Stay safe.

[@globalengineer8190]

Beautiful explanation I understood every am actually working on a 40kwh leaf battery right now

[@Good-Enuff-Garage]

great video, we leased a 2013 Leaf in California for 3 years with a monthly payment of $211 dollars, we experienced zero battery capacity loss, and returned the vehicle with just under 36,000 miles as per our lease agreement, we were given the opportunity to buy the car but passed because back in 2017 we thought we were going to get a Tesla Model 3 but we all know how that went, looooong waiting list

[@northeee]

Have a 30kwh Leaf in the UK weather helps a lot now passed 60,000 miles still on 12 bars . not doing anything like your car but still great content 👍🏻

[@InnovativeSustainableSolutions]

What a deal. At that rate of degradation, you should put about 250,000 miles on the vehicle before the battery SOH goes below 50%. And what does Petrol cost over there? Twice what it is in the states or so. You're saving enough to retire a year or two earlier. And not trashing the atmosphere while you're at it. It's a no-brainer.

[@johnquinn7663]

Finally, someone who talks with facts based on sound engineering principles and testing. Well done Sam!

[@InnovativeSustainableSolutions]

Good luck with your build sir! If you have any questions I enjoy puzzling these things out

[@Sacto43]

Thanks reddit! Just found this channel! I have a all electric ford focus and want to dive into all this stuff! Thanks again!

[@InnovativeSustainableSolutions]

There was a thread on Reddit regarding the Suneater that got 60,000 up votes. I was kinda shocked. Welcome to the channel, I hope it serves a useful source of ideas/reference material, if you ever decide to augment your EV

[@Sanjayadon]

Very good video. I live in Sri Lanka with average temperature of 37°C and 80% humidity. Degradation is there but LEAF is a hit here. Lack of active thermal management is a disaster indeed.

[@Sanjayadon]

Great video! We're using this to educate ourselves about off grid systems.

[@solarpall]

Nice video and good info but where are the parts links?

[@Random_How-tos]

I learned a lot. thank you

[@bocadelcieloplaya3852]

Didn't they change the physical dimensions of the 2018 and later battery modules? Maybe it was the rear battery modules in the 62kwhr pack. If so, wouldn't that affect replacing cells in an older leaf's pack?

[@InnovativeSustainableSolutions]

Yes, they have changed the modules twice. They are on the 3rd generation of modules in the Leaf battery pack. You will have to make sure you are buying the right modules to refurbish your battery. The biggest hurdle though remains finding undegraded modules at a reasonable price. This will become impossible within the next two years. A different solution is needed

[@plojm123]

I think to add things to the con section the car uses over 50amps per cell at time which will lower your capacity even more

[@InnovativeSustainableSolutions]

True. I was pretty disappointed in the supplier. It'll be interesting to see what their response is. I do plan on building a large powerwall, so I can always use a few more modules, but still. Disappointing.

[@plojm123]

@@InnovativeSustainableSolutions yes but those modules always sucks cause nissans heat mgmt was a big failure. Look at David poz review of the 3.7v 120ah lg cells that they sell those look like they were good capacity and such a small form factor almost at the 100$per kw I strive for when buying lithium

[@InnovativeSustainableSolutions]

@@plojm123 Those cells are fantastic for building powerwalls, but wont work as drop in replacement for a vehicle battery. The voltage discharge profiles have to match that of the original battery or it causes problems. Power Electronics Blog did a video on this you can find on his channel. The modules are actually solid batteries too. They will carry the vehicle a couple hundred thousand miles when used in cool climates. Nissan's heat mgmt system didn't suck: it was wholy, entirely absent

[@greg778123]

We need to figure out how to hack the BMS in the leaf

[@dlesterification]

Hi Sam, I have a Leaf pack from my 2013 that still has 10 of 12 bars left. I'm looking for someone that needs a pack in better shape. Maybe you'd be interested in mine rather than rebuilding your current pack?

[@InnovativeSustainableSolutions]

I'm interested in all Leaf batteries. I'm hoping to make a 100kwh home battery bank out of them in the next couple years. Shoot me an e-mail at the address in the video description with the specifics and we will make a deal.

[@realsolarcars]

This is an early range extending system for EVs: mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=16058 But was it discontinued and why? I don't know. It's not cost effective in any case.

[@InnovativeSustainableSolutions]

New Lithium Batteries are just too expensive. Thats why thats a $5k system. LiPo starting at $500/kwh and going up to almost $900/kwh in Battleborn and other premium suppliers. That why a new new battery solutions are cost prohibitive, and we've got to get creative sourcing aftermarket batts for the time being. You can find used loads of used Lithium power for $200/kwh. Also system shown in link has no cooling system. That puppy's gonna get the interior of that vehicle up to about 140 degrees in the summer, unless you live somewhere quite cool.

[@gelisob]

Well thats interesting, happened to see some of your old videos due to solar panel topic in local ev facebook group and searching around if anyone has already done it. Followed it up to see that you dont make any big blunders with your battery experiments because they can burn the house down, specially if you make mistakes during charging. Then heard my video being mentioned here :D Nice to hear someone from that far away happening to see it too. Also let me express my condolences for the climate you must pursue your EV life in :) Pretty bad to see your battery being that shot after so little mileage, Leaf really doesnt work well there. Since many here already mentioned that you might want to look into new pack, I briefly mention it too - specially if you can find low mileage offer from colder region. Another thought is, since I saw that you have leafspy too -- there is a cell voltage page that shows you all cells - from there you can see whats most shot and probably it's the same for all leafs. The most shot ones are in the rear stack, where they all live happily/sadly pressed together, not socially distancing at all. Making the middle ones the most dead ones due to very little surface area to dissipate the heat.. Now, this is the 24kwh pack, old technology. In the same physical format there is now up to 40kwh packs for leaf. The 62kwh is different, they cheated, it's physically larger -- extended from bottom. But the thought is, what if you get modules from some 40kwh leaf and we look into making a 24kwh pack out of those -- with a lot better options for cooling, even passive because then you have more room physically. So that they dont die in your hot climate so fast. Maybe look into Renault zoe or the leaf Van (nv-200), how they did their aircooling, they do have active cooling, with fans and stuff. You cant just go cut into leaf battery and add fans, because moisture will get in too and ruins things :) Must apply some more clever solution.

[@gelisob]

ps. your charging and discharging methods seemed a bit iffy to me. You could easily end up with bad data because of that. Those elements are 65Ah elements originally, your 3A discharge means a C rate of lollerskittels, you get no valid information on their capacity for real life usage this way. Leaf has 192 cells, paired then put in series, that 2p96s, if you drive at, lets round it, 20kw rate on highway speed cruising (you can see it in your energy menu while driving, it's the scale that goes up to 80). Not let us get out the amps each cell must put out during that cruise. 20 000watts divided by (96 groups times 3.8 volts equals ~365volts) equals ~55amps. Those were groups of two so 55 amps gets shared between them and each cell is working for 55 divided by two, 27,5amps. And you were doing a test with 3 amps, you can pretty much never tell how bad it can actually be for driving, at that test rate :) I recently had bad experience, I got fooled by warmer weather and my battery springing to life, giving me almost double the range compared to winter. But this was at in-city driving speeds.. highway showed me reality real fast. Now the cells got proper drain and woohoo.. the rearstack started to cry real fast again. Dropping voltage fast because they are quite shot. But I can get a lot more out of them if i drive slow. Now your car has probably the same issue, shot rear stack, that performs quite well when drained slowly and faints at higher speed. This is why you need higher load test in my opinion. You do not want my rearstack cells, that are at 67% capacity but faint under proper load. Unless you hardly ever go above 50mph, then nevermind :) And sir, do not play around with some silly voltmeter with a knob for charging lipo's! There must be set limit for voltage and cutout or you end up with burned down car due to "something happened that got me distracted and i didnt check up on it for few hours". Your meter didnt go higher because the battery didnt accept more voltage at that time due to being low on charge but you had no idea how far you pushed the upper limit with the knob. You saw it not going higher and left it like this but what if that was a position of 12v and you would have not returned for longer period for whatever reason. This can end in exploded batteries, even for those cells, so, careful there ;) My ebike burned, due to failed charger and resulting overvoltage. Luckily it didnt take my house with it and I learned my lesson -- temp controlled switch can save a lot for 2$.

[@InnovativeSustainableSolutions]

@@gelisob Havn't burned down the house, YET* I've still got my eye on that cushy insurance payday though, lol. I was glad I found your channel. The subject material of your video, that I link to here ties in perfectly to what I wanted to talk about in this video. I was really disappointed in Battery Hookup. Their modules didn't come anywhere close to what they "guaranteed" on their website, and when I e-mailed them, they seemed completely unconcerned about it. Regarding the low charge/discharge rate: the purpose of the test was to discover the maximum capacity of the module. While you can (correctly) make the argument that these modules would not see this effective capacity at a real-world discharge rate of 20A+, there is nothing inaccurate about the 285wh capacity measured in this test. The most accurate measure that can be taken of a batteries hypothetical maximum capacity, can be taken at discharge rates well under what the battery will actually be used at. Although I probably should have mentioned that these capacities will absolutely drop under real-world discharge rates. In spite of how long most of my videos run, there is actually a LOT that gets left on the cutting room floor. I am planning(/will be forced to by degradation) to do a battery swap this winter. I'm talking to a guy with a 2013, 10 bar 24kwh battery. I'm gonna need one of those pairing tools from EVs Enhanced I think. Glad to have you as a viewer.

[@gelisob]

@@InnovativeSustainableSolutions those batts can be safely discharged to 2.5-3v(per cell) and i recommend you get a lipo charger that can do automated discharge test with cutout and also can write a graph for you :) Like imax b6, those can be found around less than 20$. That can discharge up to ~50w i believe (would recommend adding fan next to it) Check my video where I tested some tiny batts for headphones as an example here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rZSXkmd6raqAZ7M

[@Xyquest]

Here is some info on upgrading a leaf battery with a newer higher capacity pack: kzbin.info/www/bejne/d53bq5-HnNSpi6M

[@InnovativeSustainableSolutions]

Love EVs Enhanced work. See pinned comment at top of thread. I go into more detail

[@dotcustom_ev]

Low range is not a problem Nissan LEAF is your problem. Buy new modules and you will be happy, without any Webasto heaters and battery extenders in the trunk.

[@greg778123]

Actually there’s 4 batteries in 1 pack 2 in Pharrell on each side

[@jasoncasey5ify]

Just bought 2012 50k miles 38 mile range.can we replace bad cells like a prius

[@InnovativeSustainableSolutions]

Yes. It's just very hard to find new cells. I really wish an aftermarket manufacturer would step up and put something on the market. I have an 11 bar battery being delivered next week. I'm hoping to make a step by step video on how to do a battery swap this fall. Me and you have roughly the same mileage and range at the moment.

[@teekay1785]

You can get a brand new 60 Kw Bolt pack for a little over $12,000

[@InnovativeSustainableSolutions]

That's $200/kwh. Not a bad price, I usually shoot for $120. Can you reply with a link to this pack?

[@teekay1785]

@@InnovativeSustainableSolutions I am pretty sure I can find it. Found it comparing Battery Hookup new Bolt cells I ended up buying 140 cells essentially a whole pack for about $6,000 last spring. I love them and BRAND NEW. I have seen new Leaf cells before but its been a while maybe when they were transitioning from Gen 1 to Gen2 . Thought at that time about getting the whole Bolt pack and using with one of Jack Ricards (RIP) high voltage inverters Inverters etc for my system. Will post link today if I find it.

[@teekay1785]

@@InnovativeSustainableSolutions here it is if it works . > maybe can only go to dealer for putting in a car? Might be worth getting a Bolt owner to get a new battery and you get out . I also wondered if they requited a trade in? Hope link works. gm-battery-24289549

[@InnovativeSustainableSolutions]

@@teekay1785 HV production and storage and generation is definitely the way to go. Jack's belief (and mine) is that eventually most of our power will be consumed in the 400V range (for transportation). We drive all electric now, and a little over 50% of our consumption is for EVs. Our PV array is 120VAC grid tied (they almost all are), so it runs through this Rube Goldberg sequence of inverters to convert it into the 400VDC power that constitutes a majority of consumption. Jack's way is smarter and more efficient. I miss him. If you got a 60 kwh pack for $6,000 you got a VERY good deal. You almost never see Lithium batteries for less than $105/kwh.

[@teekay1785]

@@InnovativeSustainableSolutions Yep I know look at about 8 seconds on this David Poz video same cells brand new the whole packs mounting holes didn't line up with the frames so not installed. They were a pain to DIY but glad I did. Its getting where you can get some of the Life cells for around $100 per Kw if you buy in quantity via alibabba etc especially the 280 ahr cells right now. I considered that but with these Lg cells lasting well in cars and high dc I believe they will last 20 years or more in low amp home use plus using mid 80% power range . I got 10% discount from david poz code and talked to them ad they waived the shipping fee ? 250 0r $350 flat rate since I waived home delivery and picked up at terminal. Total was $6300for 62.1 Kw. kzbin.info/www/bejne/eKuzhnmZjbJrb8U I share your vision of the future trend but even avid DIY often dont want to deal with 300-400 volts. Here is a link to my DIY tillable 30 panel mount. Its tilted 51 degrees in this photo. imgur.com/0pkZC0F

[@JoseDiaz-sx2nk]

Nissan did add a battery cooling system,just not on the leaf.The E-nv 200 battery which is just about the same drive train as the leaf uses battery cooling from the vehicles a/c freon.I found it really sleazy that nissan decided to only sell these vans over seas and bombard the US with leafs with no thermal management.

[@greg778123]

Our leaf has 3 bars now

[@InnovativeSustainableSolutions]

Ouch. Definitely time to replace these modules. The good thing about having a heavily degraded battery in the car is it makes it easier to find modules that are in better condition than the ones currently in the car. I think I have a lead on some 60% cap modules for about $40/piece. That $2k for 48 new modules, and you could sell the ones you replace for atleast 300-400. Should be able to get your Leaf up to 6 bars for $1600-$1800.

[@QMG_Marq_Reloaded]

Brooo you rock!!!💪🏿🙌🏿

[@jared6326]

Let me pitch my idea by you and see what you think. I just bought my 2013 Chevy Volt. (Yes the hybrid Volt, not full electric Bolt). I am a student living in student housing, making it difficult to always have a way to charge my EV. I've been very interested in your project and want to try one of my own. The only difference is I want a set up solar charger that I can sore in the trunk and set up on a sunny day on the roof of my car. I would want it to output the faster 240v charge since it takes about 10.5 hours for my volt to charge on the 120v charger I currently have and that is just too darn slow. Do you think this is a viable option? and how would you go about making it? (Honestly, I think this could be a really cool product that could benefit the average commuter in a similar situation like me) Please and thank you! :D

[@InnovativeSustainableSolutions]

Let me start with your desire to charge at 240v. This will be very difficult to achieve because of the wattage you would need to power that. I think the slowest amperage the vehicle's charging hardware will operate at is 6 amps. Power (wattage) = Amps X Volts. So even to charge at the lowest amperage you would need (6X240) 1,440 watts. I don't know of any solar car in the world that has achieved that. The highest solar power I have achieved in the Suneater to date is 500 watts. At 120v that power requirement drops to 720 watts. Much more attainable. The battery bank powers the inverter that runs the charger. You set the charger to run for every other hour or so, and basically 2 hours of sun powers the charger for 1 hour. Solar powered vehicles (IMO) work based on the premise that the car is parked 90% of the time, so if the charging is really slow, that's fine. So, take a moment, and ponder that and if you're still interested in a couple days shoot me an email and we'll figure it out. -Sam

[@vtorsi610]

@26:15 you stated, "Lets go with the low end of the estimate = 75%". No, the Low-End of the range is 67%, as is clearly stated in their document that you displayed in your own video. Only, *SOME* of the modules will be in the 75% - 85% range. *SOME* = very few. Most people are not getting GEN 1 modules with 75% capacity remaining, more like ~60% capacity. GEN 1 batteries are, at least, 7 years old. If the battery pack was replaced by Nissan for a warranty issue, then most modules will be LESS THAN 70%. Many GEN 1 battery packs were already down to 85% capacity in the 1st year, and that was 9 years ago.

[@InnovativeSustainableSolutions]

Precisely the low end of the stated range WAS 67%. The 2 modules I tested had a capacity of 55% (275wh). At best, their statements regarding the capacity of the modules were misleading. I consider a discrepancy of this degree to be false advertising.

[@vtorsi610]

@@InnovativeSustainableSolutions Very "slick" wording on their behalf ...

[@tapaspal2000]

Our Nissan Leaf Gen 1 Battery Modules are perfect for DIY Powerwalls & DIY lead-acid to lithium conversions for your RV, Golf Cart, E-Bike, etc. giving you more power, less weight, longer life and ZERO MAINTENANCE!*If you are building you own pack using these Nissan Leaf Battery Modules please let us know how many of “TYPE A” & “TYPE B” modules you will need. BE SURE TO USE A BMS WITH YOUR PACK!* bigbattery.com/product/nissan-leaf-battery-module-g1/ Use coupon code "Cycle5" at checkout for an extra 5% discount.

[@InnovativeSustainableSolutions]

Do you guys sell a 96s bms?

[@fredflintstone1428]

Interesting that you say that the highest voltage that you see in the Leaf is 384V (@ 13' 20''). Have you seen this video of a battery swap? This company, Cleveleys are no longer doing upgrades as they have had a few problems, but they charged a battery to about 391V I think. Take a look here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/q2enYYOghLpmrc0

[@danikael2815]

Look ill give you credit on leafs having potential and electric becoming the new meta but its to an extent cause under loads for use as what i do they are super inefficient as soon as they have and load they bog out and drain quick again im all for ev but its still limited in its capabilities and theres a lot to still be learned about dc energy and i mean its a whole world to learn of dc electricity and its capabilities and how it works but claiming it lasts longer that a gasoline counter part is a bit too much if it was a fact everyone would have transitioned to ev but the truth is ev isnt there yet

[@InnovativeSustainableSolutions]

You're right. Everyone always does things in the best, most efficient way possible. There is not 1 example in all of recorded history of people NOT using the most efficient, most capable tool or technology available to them.

[@drc6940]

Skip to kzbin.info/www/bejne/pZLVeHVvnryZfKM to see the capacity test method.

[@aldo4773]

I like pancakes

[@InnovativeSustainableSolutions]

Lithium Pancakes. With some of the Aunt JemIONma's syrup, and blueberry dendrites

[@sevenheadedweasel]

You suuuper shouldn't be charging like this. Charging lithium cells in series without a BMS is a good way to make a battery fire. You also charging or discharging this chemistry without compression.

[@teekay1785]

someone needs to cut their yard LOL

[@InnovativeSustainableSolutions]

The HOA hates me

[@teekay1785]

@@InnovativeSustainableSolutions I bet! LOL